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  1. #591
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    Stevie, did you edit your original post? I am going nuts now, because I feel like maybe i saw something that wasn't there now.
    Nevermind, I see it. Please understand that I am not trying to change your mind, nor do I think you are trying to change mine. Just that we can really affect people with the words that we choose. That's all really, if you don't want to respond to me ever again, I totally get it.
    looch- Of course I would respond to you I took to heart what you said earlier today about my word choice. Words do matter and I need to do better about making sure what I write doesn't come off as offensive or judgemental. The sad/funny part is, I tried really hard to word my reply appropriately and I still effed up!! And don't even get me started on all of my typos!
    S+B Est. 11.09.02
    DS1 06.28.06, DD 07.23.08
    DS2 03.07.12

  2. #592
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    sky - I 100% agree with what you wrote. It is all about the choice belonging to the person in the position. Not some anonymous lawmaker dictating what is best for an individual without regard for circumstance, even if that circumstance is simply wanting motherhood on her own terms.

    As a teen, I knew that if I were to become pregnant, I would have a very hard time terminating the pregnancy. I definitely believe/d everyone should make her own choice but I didn't know what mine would be. I really never wanted to find out, so I was extra cautious when I became sexually active and remained that way until I was ready. I am so grateful to the women who came before me and fought. I believe it's up to me to continue to fight, especially for the sake of my daughters.

    I also want to say that I respect the different opinions of women on this board whom I have come to know in a more personal way. I value you as a person and the informed insights you contribute on this topic and others even if I fundamentally disagree.

  3. #593
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    And while I completely agree with the fact that yes, if a woman chooses to carry a pregnancy and give the baby up for adoption it is a loving and selfless gesture, what I just cannot get behind is people telling women that it's either that or keeping the baby and those are the ONLY choices they are allowed to make.
    I get this...... I read this and I GET this. I don't like these being the only two options either..... but I don't know what the answer is.

    I keep coming back to what you wrote yesterday about it coming down to the simple (maybe not so simple) fact that I believe the fetus is a baby/human being, not just a clump of meaningless tissue. This one thing keeps me from being okay with adding a third option- abortion. And I know that everyone says "Well fine, then, don't have an abortion but don't tell other women they can't have one." But for me, it's not so simple because I feel it is a life being ended. Arrgh...... I don't know the answer.

    It is mind blowing to me that we (all of humanity) can view this so differently. I'm sure you can't figure out for the life of you how the hell I can be opposed to choice, and I'm scratching my head wondering how you guys can be okay with abortion. This sounds bitchy and I totally don't mean it to. I'm just sincerely confused as to how we see this so differently.
    S+B Est. 11.09.02
    DS1 06.28.06, DD 07.23.08
    DS2 03.07.12

  4. #594
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    Mar 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyblu View Post
    Stevie, with all due respect, and with great empathy for what your Mom and best friend went through, not all birth mothers can safely place their newborn into the loving arms of a carefully chosen family.

    And while I completely agree with the fact that yes, if a woman chooses to carry a pregnancy and give the baby up for adoption it is a loving and selfless gesture, what I just cannot get behind is people telling women that it's either that or keeping the baby and those are the ONLY choices they are allowed to make.

    I have a problem with disallowing choice. I have a problem with someone saying the "better" choice is adoption. That would be like me telling you that you should have adopted kids instead of having your own. You'd probably become (rightfully so) extremely offended at my having the gall to dictate what is a better choice for you and your family.

    This is the converse of that.

    Nobody here is saying women shouldn't be allowed to choose adoption. We are all saying adoption is a wonderful and selfless act.

    What we are also saying is, nobody should be MADE to give their baby up for adoption. Just like nobody should be MADE to abort.

    Choices. That's what we argue for.

    If the pro-life movement was called anti-choice, the sentiment might be different.

    And please let it be clear, I do not in any way mean to say that ALL kids given up or ALL kids in the foster system would have preferred not to have been born. I would never say that. I am saying that being born is not the only thing that matters. And one can't just want for an embryo to be born. One also has to want for it not to suffer afterwards.

    I simply can't believe someone would ask "why don't they kill themselves?" Because THAT'S super pro-life, right? Perfect example of how some people just want birth. After that? Suffer, kill your self, who cares.

    THAT is what blows my mind. That, and dictating what choice is best for someone else's life.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I'm not dictating anything, simply stating my opinion. And I didn't say "why don't the kill them selves" as in they *should* kill themselves. I was saying that they don't kill themselves because they value being alive over not being alive.
    * Wife, Nurse, Mom-squared, Yogi! *

  5. #595
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloomwood View Post
    sky - I 100% agree with what you wrote. It is all about the choice belonging to the person in the position. Not some anonymous lawmaker dictating what is best for an individual without regard for circumstance, even if that circumstance is simply wanting motherhood on her own terms.

    As a teen, I knew that if I were to become pregnant, I would have a very hard time terminating the pregnancy. I definitely believe/d everyone should make her own choice but I didn't know what mine would be. I really never wanted to find out, so I was extra cautious when I became sexually active and remained that way until I was ready. I am so grateful to the women who came before me and fought. I believe it's up to me to continue to fight, especially for the sake of my daughters.

    I also want to say that I respect the different opinions of women on this board whom I have come to know in a more personal way. I value you as a person and the informed insights you contribute on this topic and others even if I fundamentally disagree.
    Thank you for your compassion and understanding.
    * Wife, Nurse, Mom-squared, Yogi! *

  6. #596
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    Sky - I have followed your story here on CC and really enjoyed your posts about your boys, fashion, parenting, etc. I have two boys a few years younger than yours and admired the wisdom you shared on mothering teenagers and encouraging them to grow and be independent. But I have lost all respect for you by the way you have name-called, judged, ridiculed, and tried to shame me for Having an opinion different from yours. Talk about a lack of compassion.
    * Wife, Nurse, Mom-squared, Yogi! *

  7. #597
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    Jun 2005
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    You can lose your respect for me, I'm okay with that. But I did not ridicule or shame you. If you feel ashamed when I reflect your words back to you then that is maybe something for you to think about.

    And as evidenced by the fact that I went as far as arguing the opposite position when trying to understand it, and by the fact that I was able to have a civil and respectful conversation with someone else who has the same belief as you, my disbelief at your position is not because your opinion is different from mine. It's because you sat on your high horse and decided what choice is better for every single woman in America.

    And yes, I was almost in tears when I read your comment "why don't they kill themselves", because it sounded to me like you were suggesting they do that as a solution to a shitty life. You have clarified that's not how you meant it and I am glad, because that was blowing my mind. I see now you meant "if it was all bad they'd kill themselves, so obviously they prefer to be alive." (I think I'm understanding that correctly now?) Which is still a flawed logic because not being born is VASTLY different to killing yourself. But I do apologize for misinterpreting those words of yours.

    I stand by my assertion that you don't get to tell other women what path is "better" for them, simply because that's the path that is best for you (presumably.)

    You can go ahead and think I lack compassion. At the end of the day, I am the one who holds the hand of the ill and the dying, who spends her free time tending to the forgotten, the homeless, and the poor, and the one who is putting herself in the shoes of women a lot less fortunate than you and me and imagining what a heart-wrenching decision they must make when faced with an undesired pregnancy, few resources, little support, and people telling them what the "better" choice is for them. I have many, many, many flaws. Lack of compassion is not one of them.


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    J + A

  8. #598
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyblu View Post
    You can lose your respect for me, I'm okay with that. But I did not ridicule or shame you. If you feel ashamed when I reflect your words back to you then that is maybe something for you to think about.

    And as evidenced by the fact that I went as far as arguing the opposite position when trying to understand it, and by the fact that I was able to have a civil and respectful conversation with someone else who has the same belief as you, my disbelief at your position is not because your opinion is different from mine. It's because you sat on your high horse and decided what choice is better for every single woman in America.

    And yes, I was almost in tears when I read your comment "why don't they kill themselves", because it sounded to me like you were suggesting they do that as a solution to a shitty life. You have clarified that's not how you meant it and I am glad, because that was blowing my mind. I see now you meant "if it was all bad they'd kill themselves, so obviously they prefer to be alive." (I think I'm understanding that correctly now?) Which is still a flawed logic because not being born is VASTLY different to killing yourself. But I do apologize for misinterpreting those words of yours.

    I stand by my assertion that you don't get to tell other women what path is "better" for them, simply because that's the path that is best for you (presumably.)

    You can go ahead and think I lack compassion. At the end of the day, I am the one who holds the hand of the ill and the dying, who spends her free time tending to the forgotten, the homeless, and the poor, and the one who is putting herself in the shoes of women a lot less fortunate than you and me and imagining what a heart-wrenching decision they must make when faced with an undesired pregnancy, few resources, little support, and people telling them what the "better" choice is for them. I have many, many, many flaws. Lack of compassion is not one of them.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    How do you know that I don't do every one of the things you do? I am pro-woman. I work in women's healthcare. I am a democrat. I voted for Hillary. I marched on January 21st with my two boys and we were on the front page of our city's newspaper holding our handmade signs. I simply believe life starts at conception and therefore, there are better alternatives than abortion. Check out Feminists for Life - "...dedicated to systematically eliminating the root causes that drive women to abortion - primarily lack of practical resources and support..." I'm not sitting on my high horse, believing I know what's best for every woman in America. I'm working to make life better for women every day.
    Last edited by L&D Nurse; 03-06-2017 at 09:29 PM.
    * Wife, Nurse, Mom-squared, Yogi! *

  9. #599
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    Jun 2005
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    Stevie, you didn't eff up, don't think that!

    I think you bring up an excellent point to consider, how is it we can have such different views? Why does that happen? I think that's really worth exploring.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Instead of having "answers" on a math test, they should just call them "impressions," and if you got a different "impression," so what, can't we all be brothers?

  10. #600
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    Jun 2005
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    Florida
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    Quote Originally Posted by steviem View Post
    I get this...... I read this and I GET this. I don't like these being the only two options either..... but I don't know what the answer is.

    I keep coming back to what you wrote yesterday about it coming down to the simple (maybe not so simple) fact that I believe the fetus is a baby/human being, not just a clump of meaningless tissue. This one thing keeps me from being okay with adding a third option- abortion. And I know that everyone says "Well fine, then, don't have an abortion but don't tell other women they can't have one." But for me, it's not so simple because I feel it is a life being ended. Arrgh...... I don't know the answer.

    It is mind blowing to me that we (all of humanity) can view this so differently. I'm sure you can't figure out for the life of you how the hell I can be opposed to choice, and I'm scratching my head wondering how you guys can be okay with abortion. This sounds bitchy and I totally don't mean it to. I'm just sincerely confused as to how we see this so differently.
    Stevie- I am very pro-choice and my viewpoints about life, including the death penalty (against), euthanasia (for) are different because I came to them from a less emotional place. So I can agree to disagree with your beliefs because I do understand that you can't get over the emotional hurdle of abortion being the taking of life. I'm with sky on that the hypocrisy is where we have the biggest problem and I see that you have thought about your inconsistencies. We are all human and everyone's beliefs are formed on with a complex mix of logic and rationality and emotion and bias. I don't have the answers either about how to reconcile all of this.
    C 3/21/07
    It's a girl! D 8/3/11

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