Jewish people: come on in!

[southerner]

All this talk about Christianity around here lately has made me feel like a "minority" yet again. I thought I'd start a thread for all of us.

I grew up in a conservative family and attended Hebrew school three times a week, was Bat Mitzvahed, confirmed, etc. My family has many positions and is well known in the Jewish community where I grew up. I actually think that has a lot to do with why I don't live there, but that's for another post :rolleyes:

My DH is Jewish, but that just happened. Granted, my mother likes to think I would only marry a member of the tribe, but that also is another post. Sensing the resentment yet or what?

DH and I have recently relocated and have yet to join the synagogue here. The dues are kind of expensive and we have to save all the money we can for our home remodeling projects. Once we start a family, I think we will join. I've heard religion takes on a new meaning when you have children. Me, I'm still a little bitter (could you tell?) by it being crammed down my throat when I was growing up. Unfortunately, my parents (mostly my mother) aren't very open-minded about "diveristy." DH has recently begun to express an interest in becoming active in the Jewish community here. Sometimes, I find it difficult to be unbiased when he says these things. I keep reminding myself that we had entirely different experience with religion in life. It's going to be a hard balance to find, but I owe him the respect to let him define it on his own w/o my two cents.

What's your story??

[MrsTazlvr]

Subscribing. Thanks for starting this thread. DD just woke up from her nap. I'll try to come back later to give my story. ;)

[villanelle75]

My story is kind fo the opposite of yours. I grew up in a hom ewith no religion at all. My father was at one point Catholic but had abandoned that by the time i came aroudn. My mother also grew up in a completely secular home. Fo rmany years, I didn't even know about my Jewish heritage. I evnetually learned that my maternal grandmother was Jewish. originally from Poland. She and one of her sisters were smuggled out during the holocaust; the rest of her family died in the camps.

I've only recently began really identifing myself out load as Jewish and when I do, I'm always worried that "real Jews: will be offended or something since I'm a totally "non-Jewish Jew". I know so little about the religion and am struggling to learn about it as I try to embrace this part of my history.

[southerner]

my maternal grandmother was Jewish. originally from Poland. She and one of her sisters were smuggled out during the holocaust; the rest of her family died in the camps.

:eek: is she still with us? I bet you can learn a lot from her experiences (Holocaust and what it's like to be a survivor).

I'm always worried that "real Jews" will be offended or something since I'm a totally "non-Jewish Jew"

I guess the definition of a "real Jew" is debateable. I feel like a "real Jew" or a "good Jew", but I'm sure many other Jews would disagree. Yes, an orthodox Jew might be offended, but there are plenty of orthodox Jews who wouldn't be, so I think it's more of an individual thing as far as who would be offended. I'm sure it can be confusing at times and you might struggle to decide what, who, etc. you believe in, but at least you have the opportunity to figure that out on your own (unlike me growing up). You'll develop a sense of who you are and where you fit in eventually. Enjoy the process.....

[southerner]

there's the Bat Mitzvah caricature ad :rolleyes:

only took a few minutes to pop up....annoying!!!

[Jaycee]

OK, now thats funny..Didn't every Jewish kid that was Bar/Bat Mitzvah'd have a guy who did characatures (sp?) there for the kids? I'm pretty sure I had one. I'm too tired and pregnant at the moment to type much, but I'm subscribing and will definitly contribute more later when I have some energy :)

[villanelle75]

I noticed the add to. :rolleyes:

Unfortunately, my grandmother passed away when I was about seven, long before I had peiced together any of this so I was never abel to talk to her about it. The impression I get is that she probably wouldn't have talked much anyway. I;m guessing on this but I think after her experiences she turned completley away from Judaism and just tried to be a "normal American", possibly out of fear of being persecuted again.

[southerner]

villanelle75 Unfortunately, I think that's the case for a lot of Holocaust survivors. Although, there are many who felt more comfortable speaking up/telling their story as time went on. I got to hear Elie Wiesel speak once. He was one of the most powerful speakers I've ever heard!

jaycee guilty of having the caricature dude. What's even worse is that I know exactly where mine is at my parents house :rolleyes:

[southerner]

110 views and only 4 joined???? :(

are there just no Jews here? or you're lurking to decide if you want to come out?????

[kalogrias]

<waving> Hi!

My story:

Born to Jewish parents. Granddaughter of a Holocaust survivor and a survivor of the Russian Gulags on one side. My mother and her mother were stateless refugees for many, many years. It's an interesting story. Granddaughter of German Jews on the other side who were on a boat that was turned away from the US, and who went to Brazil instead. I should say, it was my paternal grandmother and my aunt (who was a baby) who were turned away. My grandfather is another story, and he wasn't around at that point in time. Anyway, my dad's mom and my aunt made it into the US from Brazil, and they settled in the Lower East Side, NYC. Broome St, Canal St, every Jacob Riis image you can think of...

I'm not a religious Jew. I hated religion for a very long time because I couldn't comprehend the absolute terror that was caused to my family because of it. Growing up in a household with a Holocaust survivor was very interesting and not easy. In college, I began to seriously study German history -- I've always been a German-o-phile (speak German, we lived in Austria for 8 years) -- and Austrian history, and academia became my religion. So I am now a fully practicing cultural Jew, and I choose when and how I want to believe. I married a non-Jew -- actually, I married an atheist, and picked him (if you "pick" someone) partially because that was very attractive to me (along with all the other attractive things about him :D ). I am very proud of my heritage and very proud of how my family turned out. Education is one of the most important things to *me*, simply because I've always been taught it's one thing people can't take away from you.

So, that's me in 2 paragraphs. Well, my Judaism, anyway.

Villa -- Hello :) You are a "real Jew". ITA with what Southerner said.

Can't wait to "meet" all you guys.

[RobynScott]

This is my first view - so not one of the 110 :) Very excited to see this thread - will write more later! :)

[Jeff]

I'm Jewish. :)

[MrsTazlvr]

Didn't every Jewish kid that was Bar/Bat Mitzvah'd have a guy who did characatures (sp?) there for the kids?

YES!!! Mine is still up on the wall at my father's house. :eek:

[mom2amelia]

I just stumbled on this thread by mistake (clicked the wrong category). But, here I am.

Raised in a reform/conservative home. My mother was always very involved in the Jewish community (president of our shul when I was in HS), my dad just went along for the ride. We did not keep a Kosher home growing up. My parents are divorced and re-married and both of my step-parents are also Jewish. My mom and step-dad are very involved in the Jewish community where they live, and they keep a Kosher home. My dad and step-mother are more secular, but my little sister became a bat-mitvah last year and my littlest sister will become one as well.

My husband is also Jewish. Raised in a conservative family. We belong to a synagogue here, and we keep a Kosher home and send our DD to a Jewish pre-school (although, that has way more to do with the quality of the school than it does its religious affiliation). We do not keep Kosher out of the home and we do not keep the Sabbath (although we do a traditional Shabbat dinner most Friday nights). We live in a city that has a very strong, active, philinthropic and vocal Jewish poplulation - religous and secular.

I feel a little slighted though - no characatures at my Bat Mitzvah. Maybe I'm older than you guys!

[tenofcups]

A "secular" or "cultural" Jew here... I am Jewish and strongly relate to being Jewish in terms of culture, identity, and history but don't believe any of the precepts of the religion. I "celebrate" holidays in that I get together with family for dinners and regard them as a family and cultural tradition, but again don't do it for the religious aspect.

When I was growing up, my parents were much the same way--we got together for holidays, but didn't belong to a synagogue, I didn't have a bat mitzvah, etc. Recently my sister has joined a synagogue for the first time in her life so that her 7 year old daughter, the product of a Jewish mother and non-practicing Catholic father, can have a Jewish education. Neither was all that excited after their first services, though, so we'll see how that plays out.

FH was raised Christian but has completely rejected his parents' form of Christianity, has similar views regarding life and religion to mine, and is very interested in Jewish traditions and cultural aspects so we've had no conflicts of that nature...

[southerner]

**waving** there y'all are. I knew there were more aorund here and what a diverse group also :D

kalogrias Wow :eek: you and your family have such rich family history. I wish I knew more baout mine :(

MrsTazlvr Mine is under my bed in a frame at my parents house.

mom2amelia you keep a kosher home? That's cool! Do you have two sinks/dishwashers/etc/ or just two sets of dishes? What made you want to have one as an adult since you didn't have one growing up?

tenofcups do y'all have children? how will you raise them? both?

[LandR02]

YES!!! Mine is still up on the wall at my father's house. :eek:


Hehe. My father just recently unearthed all of our caricatures from my brother's bar mitzvah, framed them, and hung them up (!!) in the house. My mother had to sneak in one night, remove, and hide them from my dad.

Men! :confused:

[tenofcups]

Southerner--we don't have kids, although we're trying. I'm 42, though, so who knows what will happen...

If we're lucky enough to have kids, we don't really intend to bring them up following any religion since neither of us subscribes to any religion. That said, it's still important to me that they identify as Jewish (or at least, primarily Jewish). And, of course, we hope to pass on our beliefs about spirituality, the possibility of some sort of god-force, etc. even though none of it falls into any one religion.

I'm kind of lucky in that FH doesn't have any interest in celebrating Christian holidays. He gave up Easter with family long ago since they celebrate it in a religious way, and we attended the large extended family Christmas parties last year, but he chose not to spend Christmas itself with his family, again since they celebrate it religiously. We don't have a tree, decorations, etc. and don't ever intend to, whether we have a child or not. So none of that kind of thing will be an issue for us.

He also has no interest in any kind of baptism so again not an issue. (Possible issue--his born-again parents baptising child secretly. My feelings are that as long as it's really secret and we never know, no harm done though FH feels much more strongly against it.)

Other possible issues: If we have a boy, I would like to do a bris and I honestly don't know FH's feelings about that. A girl would be easier since we can do a baby-naming that isn't religious. I'd like to follow Jewish tradition of naming a child after a deceased family member and I think he's ok with that. He's completely open to hosting Jewish family celebrations in our home and he's even suggested that we take over next Passover (if my extended family is willing to travel a couple of hours to come to our house).

I honestly don't anticipate a lot of problems since religion for the most part is not a part of our daily lives...

[cakes]

Do you all mind if I lurk along? I'm not Jewish, but one of my favorite aunts converted years ago when she got married to my uncle. I'd really love to know more about her religion, but feel awkward asking her questions.

Feel free to tell me to butt out if you'd like though.

[kalogrias]

Hello everyone!!

Cakes -- Feel free to lurk along :) In college, I lived with 3 other girls, two of whom were Jewish, and the third used to say that she had a little old Jewish man inside her -- his name was Abraham -- and that he would celebrate things with us. We always thought that was intensely amusing. So, in that vein, welcome.

Mom2Amelia -- I don't have caricatures either. Then again, I was never Bat Mitvah because my grandmother tried to offer me $$ to do it, and I told her that she couldn't bribe me to believe. Heh heh. I guess I knew how I felt, even at the age of 12-13. But even if I had been Bat Mitzvah, I dont think I would have had a caricature since we were living in Austria at the time.

Tenofcups -- DH and I might have a similar problem with his extremist Protestant parents secretly baptizing any children we might have. We're currently discussing how to handle this issue. Why are people crazy???

Southerner -- Thanks for starting this thread!!

[sue-bert]

Shalom folks,

Another Jewish WC'er here. But my bat-mitzvah was, alas, caricature-free. Can I still count as a member of the tribe??? ;)

Other relevant information: Grew up in the U.S. in a "Conservadox" family; Now living in Israel (I moved here on my own to do a post-doc and decided to stay and make aliyah), married with one (adorable) son. "Modern Orthodox"/Dati Leumi lifestyle. We keep kosher and Shabbat and lots of other stufff, which is all trmendously easier in Israel than in the U.S!

sue-bert

[southerner]

tenofcups, One of my best friends could have written your same exact post a few years ago. Now that her and her DH have a son, they have started doing "religious" things with him. She told me that religion took on a different meaning when there was someone else in their family and she became motivated to teach/share Judiasm with him and thier families. She's not sure what happened or why she cahnged her mind about it all, but nonetheless they have. Good luck with TTC, by the way.

cakes, feel free to lurk along. Your uncle is Jewish?? And one of your parents are too, I'm assuming??

kalogrias, your welcome! I'm hoping we have have good conversations in here. Maybe I'll think of some questions for people to answer/discuss.

sue-bert, What part of Israel do you live in? Are you nervous about your safety any? What was/is your post-doc work? So many questions to ask you....I have always wanted to go to Israel, but I'll have to admit since all the fighting over the last decade there, I have no interest (scared, I guess). I know that's awful to say/think, but I think a lot of Americans who watch the news are under the false assumption (myself included) that it's just not safe and you never know what could happen. I know. I know. I could say the same thing about driving my car to work everyday :rolleyes:

[suzubeane]

Just stumbled here, and am not one of the former lurkers ;).

Raised in NYC is a reform Jew, became Bat Mitzvah in '76 (sans caricature, I'm afraid) and did not practice early on in college. While in architecture school, I got turned on to Reconstructionism, and after my son was born, joined the only area Recon shul.

My first husband was (is) a practicing Catholic, but agreed to live in a Jewish home and raise Jewish kids. Neither of us really knew how hard that would be, and we sort of bumbled along. By the time I was dating after my divorce, I knew if I were to get married again, it would have to be to someone who was going to take a more active role in Jewish life at home. My husband was raised as a catholic until age 13 when he gave it up, and was interested and pretty well-versed in Judaism (for a non-Jew) when we met. We are both pretty active in our synagogue community, and still have one kid in Hebrew School. (The kids are now 9 and 16.)

For those of you who are feeling like you don't belong in a synagogue, go to the Jewish Reconstructionist Website (http://www2.jrf.org/cong/directory-all.php) and find yourselves a Recon shul or Havorah to visit! I know I do a lot of cheerleading for Reconstuctionism around these boards, but I guarantee you will be welcome with open arms, and find a group of people for whom Kehillah (community) is of primary importance - right up there with ritual and education.

Reconstructionism has taught me to think of Jewish ritual as accessible and "doable" and not something mysterious, or complicated or something I just for which I just go through the paces.

For those of you wondering how you'll impart Judaism to your children when you have ambivalence yourself, I urge you to find some kind of Jewish community you're comfortable with before then. Kids in minority religions don't "get it" by osmosis. My older child is very turned off my synagogue life and services, but he has a strong Jewish Identity because I made sure he had the education as a child. I don't force him to go now (well, not that much, anyway) but I started to take him to Shiva Minions after his Bar Mitzvah, and I can tell he understands why he is there. Without a grounding in Judaism, he would not understand the community rituals, or why his just showing up is important in itself.

OK -----------> getting off my soap box now!

Looking forward to meeting more of you.

Oh, by the way, this past Shabbat's parsha (Noah) was the one on my Bat Mitzvah date 29 years ago!

[sue-bert]

sue-bert, What part of Israel do you live in? Are you nervous about your safety any? What was/is your post-doc work? So many questions to ask you....I have always wanted to go to Israel, but I'll have to admit since all the fighting over the last decade there, I have no interest (scared, I guess). I know that's awful to say/think, but I think a lot of Americans who watch the news are under the false assumption (myself included) that it's just not safe and you never know what could happen.
Hi there,

I live in the Central region, about 20 minutes from Tel-Aviv. I'd love to live in Jerusalem, but we can't afford it right now, and our jobs are in this area (we both walk to work, which is a HUGE luxury).

I post-doc'ed (is that a word? It should be) in a Chemisty department, although my specific group was actually comprised of physicists, so it was sort of interdisciplinary. My degrees are in Chemical Engineering.

I am far less nervous about safety here in Israel than I was as an undergrad in Cambridge, MA, walking home alone from the library late at night! The safety concerns here are different -- it is second nature to keep an eye out for unatended packages on buses or in shopping malls, there are security guards at the entrances to supermarkets, etc. On the other hand, acts of non-terrorist-related random violence are relatively rare. I walk around late at night with few fears of muggings, or murders, etc. Not so when I lived in large cities in the U.S.

I know. I know. I could say the same thing about driving my car to work everyday :rolleyes:

Actually, you would be *very* justified in saying that about driving your car to work every day HERE. Israelis are (speaking genarally, of course) terrible drivers. Statistically, road accidents kill more Israelis than terrorism, even at the height of the last intifada.

suzubeane You seem to do such an admirable job with your kids. They are so lucky.

(the next paragraph isn't directed at anyone in particular -- just sharing) :

Here are some Jewish organizations I really like:

http://www.edah.org/ (a US-based modern Orthodox organization)
http://www.kolech.org/ (Religious Jewish women's forum - mostly Hebrew)
http://www.jofa.org/ (Jewish Orthodox Feminist Alliance)
http://moreshet.co.il/zomet/index-e.html (an organization that explores the implications of Jewish Law on various technologies and medical breakthroughs, like stem cell research, genetic engineering, electric wheelchairs that can be used on Shabbat, etc.)

sue-bert

[kalogrias]

Sue-bert -- where did you go to school in Cambridge? Was it the lovely H-University or possibly the M-place? ;) I lived in Cambridge for 10 years and went to Tufts as an undergrad -- it's probably my favorite American "city" (if you count it as such -- and not as attached to Boston, which I don't like as much).

Southerner -- I will also answer some of your questions you directed at Sue-bert (hope that's okay). My father is a US diplomat assigned to Israel -- and he's been there since 1990, so I've been there...over 45 times at last count, I think (I just counted). I consider Israel to be my home in many ways -- much more so than most other places I've lived, simply because it's been the most constant. 15 years is a long time, even if you're only visiting.

Basically, ITA with Sue-bert. Although I'm much more aware of my physical surroundings there, I never worry about my personal safety. Random acts of violence are rare -- and terrorist acts are, unfortunately, not something you can plan around, but are also something you can take precautions against by not taking public transportation, by not going to busy clubs at night, etc. It's terrible that these are the things to think about, but it's really not very different than deciding what area of NYC to eat dinner in if you know you're going to have to come home alone. The media in the US tends to over-dramatize everything...not that the situation isn't dire at times in Israel, but it's not as hanging-by-thread as it is made out to be. Plus, as Sue-bert said, you really do run a better chance of getting killed in your car driving the road between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem than you do by getting caught in a terrorist incident (the driving is a scene to behold...I don't think I've EVER been as frightened as I have been driving that road).

What's amazing abotu Israel is really the people. The people are warm, loving, caring, resilient. The atmosphere in the country is not one of worry or death, but rather much more of seizing the day and living it to its fullest -- just in case. I'll be sad when my Dad's term in Israel is up because I don't know how often I'll get over there to visit.

[pocket]

hi, I'm a Jew!

I will be back later with my whole story, but quickly wanted to ask -

Does anyone know of a brachot website with audio where I can learn el malei before a funeral tomorrow? Is the one for funerals the same as the YK one? HELP!!!

The rabbi won't do it, because the body was cremated. the body was cremated because...well more time elapsed than was ideal between death and discovering the death than one would want.

[mom2amelia]

mom2amelia you keep a kosher home? That's cool! Do you have two sinks/dishwashers/etc/ or just two sets of dishes? What made you want to have one as an adult since you didn't have one growing up?


Southerner - we have 2 sets of dishes (well, 4 if you count Passover) but only one DW and one sink. We do our best to use the right side of the DW for meat and the left side for milk. Our current house is pretty small and couldn't accomodate 2 DWs and 2 sinks. We keep Kosher because my DH did all his life and it was pretty important to him.

[mom2amelia]

Pocket - I found this. I'm sure there are other websites out there with the same or similar information. Hope this helps.

Eil Malei Rachamim - for male
(Transliteration/phonetic Hebrew)
Eil malei rachamim sho-chein bam'romim ham-tzei m'nuchah n'chonah tachat kanfei ha-sh'chinah, b'ma-alot k'doshim u-t'horim k'zohar ha-rakiya maz'hirim et nish-mat (name) ben (parents' names) she-halach l'olamo, b'gan eiden t'hei menuchato. Ana, ba-al ha'rachamim, hastireihu b'seiter k'nafecha l'olamim, u'tzror bi'tzror ha'chayim et nishmato, Hashem hu nachalato, v'yanu'ach b'shalom al mishkavo, v'nomar amein.

(Translation)
G*d of compassion, grant perfect peace in Your sheltering Presence, among the holy and the pure who shine in the brightness of the firmament, to the soul of our dear (name) son of (parents' names), who has gone to his eternal rest. G*d of compassion, remember all his worthy deeds in the land of the living. May his soul be bound up in the bond of everlasting life. May G*d be his inheritance. May he rest in peace. And let us answer amen.

ETA - I just realized you wanted audio. I don't know of any specific sites, but I'll keep my eyes open.

[IrisHope]

Hi, I am Jewish. I was brought up in a reform temple. I did not go to Hebrew school and stopped going to temple for the high holy days since I was 17. I do not feel affiliated with Judaism. My brother, on the other hand, has become much more religious than we were growing up. His catholic wife converted a few years into their marriage (totally her choice). She said that she identifies and loves Judaism.

[sue-bert]

Quick reply for pocket:

Maybe here? http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000051Y05/104-2195799-8977569?v=glance

(I can't check it from my home computer because I don't want to wake up my son).

s-b

[cakes]

Thanks for the welcomes and letting me lurk along :D

southerner ~ Sorry guess I should have been more clear. My aunt (mom's sister) married a Jewish man and converted when they got married and they are raising their son Jewish. So none of my immediate immediate family is Jewish.

I have a kinda stupid question though. Is there a religious/historical/whatever significance to serving latkas (umm the potatoe pancake things) on your holidays? My uncles will always make those when were over at their house for certain holidays and I wasnt sure if it was just a tradition for them or if there was a reason behind it. Sorry for the stupid question but I've always been too embarrased to ask them :o

[Vishenka69]

Both DH and I are Russian-Jews, who were born in Ukraine. So obviously we weren't brought up with Judaism at home. DH used to go to Yeshiva for a few years (7-10th grades I think) and was Bar Mitzva'ed. But I took after my dad who's an atheist. The most Jewish thing I ever did (aside from marrying another Jew) was to have a huppa at our wedding (at DH's insistance). I can write a book about trying to find a rabbi who would marry us. We don't do anything at home and I'm not really planning on changing that. DH would like for our future kids to go to synagogue and Hebrew school but I dread having to take them there and sit through the whole service.

After we came to US, I felt that so many Jewish organizations were trying to "convert" us overnight, that I just shut them all out. It's hard to go from "there's no God" to "on this side of the ocean there is God, and this is how we obey/praise him." It's also hard for me to understand why it's such a necessity for our future (and very hypothetical) kids to be brought up with Judaism. Afterall, I wasn't and turned out just find. I guess the bottom line is that being Jewish remains a very much open issue for me.

[LTJC]

Hello fellow Jews,

Reform Jew from suburb of Boston. Attended hebrew school, temple on the high holidays with grandparents, bat mitzvah'ed. Somehow, my brother and I attended hebrew school at an orthodox temple (we obviously were not members) and due to my grades, I was awarded a scholarship to Prozdor, a Hebrew college (although you could attend while still in high school). Imagine the temple's shock when I turned it down?!? My parents were cool with it as they really wanted me to become a Bat Mitzvah. Anything else was gravy to them.

Currently married to a wonderful Italian Catholic man - it's been quite the learning experience for both of our families. I've been lucky to live in places where there are a significant number of Jews (Boston, NYC), so I have definitely taken some things for granted. When I moved to CT, no one carried Hanukkah candles. I finally called a local temple to send some my way. Being in a less Jewish environment out here, I find myself seeking out opportunities to meet others. I'm currently thinking about joining a playgroup at a local Reform temple.

Would LOVE to travel to Israel when DS is a little older and can understand.

Just curious - where in your home does your ketubah hang?

[MrsTazlvr]

Just curious - where in your home does your ketubah hang?

Good question. Ours is on the wall in the front hall near our front door. :)

[sue-bert]

Just curious - where in your home does your ketubah hang?

Living room.

[sue-bert]

Sue-bert -- where did you go to school in Cambridge? Was it the lovely H-University or possibly the M-place? ;) I lived in Cambridge for 10 years and went to Tufts as an undergrad -- it's probably my favorite American "city" (if you count it as such -- and not as attached to Boston, which I don't like as much).
The M-place! I'm a major-leagure nerd. I absolutely LOVED Cambridge too (and I liked Boston a whole lot too!). As much as I love living in Israel, Cambridge will always hold a special place in my heart.

sue-bert

[spps]

Hi. Both DH and I are jewish, living in North Jersey. Both raised modern orthodox/orthodox went to day schools, yeshiva high schools, spent time in israeli in yeshivot for 1-2 years post-high school and continued on to Jewish universities. We keep kosher, shabbos and the multitude of other things as well. We also plan to make aliyah in ~ 2 years.

[kalogrias]

Sue-bert -- Aaaaahh, the M-place ;) DH did his ROTC there -- the unit was Tufts, Harvard, MIT -- not particularly military minded people, as you might guess. I think all of them got a HUGE shock when they actually went to work in the "regular" military because they realized that the rest of their peer group was simply not as liberal, not as free-thinking, and, quite frankly, not as smart as they all were. BTW, I don't think you're a nerd at all. Then again, I, too, went to a "nerdy" school for my grad degree, and am a total history nerd and fanatic, so there might be something to that, too.

Sigh. Now I'm homesick for Cambridge.

[southerner]

I HAD to have the ketubah that I wanted. It was a more setailed and expensive, non standard sized one. I'm embarassed to say that it is not hanging up in our house. Heck, it's not even framed :rolleyes:

I have a kinda stupid question though. Is there a religious/historical/whatever significance to serving latkas (umm the potatoe pancake things) on your holidays? My uncles will always make those when were over at their house for certain holidays and I wasnt sure if it was just a tradition for them or if there was a reason behind it.

cakes, There might be a better answer out there from someone more "Jewish" than myself, but I don't think there is a significance as far as Hanukkah goes (the holiday they are most commonly made during). Perhaps (wild guess here), they are associated with Judiasm b/c of the Jews travelling through the desert? I feel stupid for taking a stab at that answer b/c I don't honestly know what I'm talking about.

We also plan to make aliyah in ~ 2 years.

spps, cool! good luck with the process. What exactly is involved?

[sue-bert]

It is an Ashkenazi tradition to have latkes on Hanukkah because it is traditional to have fried foods (apropos of the whole day's worth of oil lasting 8-days business). They had lots of potatoes in Eastern Europe, so guess what they fried? BTW, Sephardim traditionally eat sufganyot, fried jelly doughnuts.

In some families latkes are popular on Pesach too because, well, aside from potato recipes, starch sides dishes are hard to come by (again, at least for Ashkenazim who don't eat kitniyot or rice). We save them for Hanukkah, though, because I'm lazy and there are much less time-consuming and less oily side dishes to make. :)

sue-bert

[suzubeane]

It is an Ashkenazi tradition to have latkes on Hanukkah because it is traditional to have fried foods (apropos of the whole day's worth of oil lasting 8-days business). This is what I was told growing up, and I only make them on Chanukah. More recently, we've started to share sufganyot with our friends - the are more portable!

On pesach, I make potato kugel, which is kind of like a big potato latke. :).

On the matter of our ketubah, it is not hanging at the moment :(. I LOVE our ketubah, and we wrote the text ourselves. But with a few rooms under construction, none of our artwork is hanging.

After we came to US, I felt that so many Jewish organizations were trying to "convert" us overnight, that I just shut them all out. I worry about this sometimes. I love Reconstructionism so much, and I know that a lot of other progressive (or even disenfranchised) Jews would, too, if they only learned about it! I fear that my enthusiasm might actually have the opposite affect of that intended. I really just want people to know it's an option - not to "convert" anyone. (i.e. insist that they become more observant in any way.)

My brother, on the other hand, has become much more religious than we were growing up. His catholic wife converted a few years into their marriage (totally her choice). She said that she identifies and loves Judaism.As someone else mentioned, this is not uncommon. I think that Judaism is especially attractive to people who value rituals of the home because of the emphasis placed on these. There's also the notion that there's no "conduit to God" needed - I think that makes Judaism approachable to others who weren't raised that way.

A close friend of mine was raised Catholic, married a Jew, and converted after their two kids were born. She learned Hebrew and trope and is a Hebrew School teacher now in our synagogue. Actually, several of our teachers were not born Jews.

There are five kids in my blended family, and of them, my brother and I are probably more observant than we were raised (reform.) The rest are more "culturally Jewish" I guess.

By the way sue-bert - it was so sweet of you to say that my kids are lucky! It's hard with my son - I don't want to force anything on him, but I want him to know that he is part of a community and of a People. I think that only becomes clear when one is older, but I just want to lay the groundwork now. He doesn't even know it, but if God forbid he should need them, he is part of a Kehillah that would run to help him.

[spps]

Ketubah - is hanging over the fireplace.

southerner - Making aliyah is just moving to Israel. Of course there are all sorts of things that need to be doen like citiznship, shipping the contents of our house, finding jobs, where to live. We haven't started anything yet but it is never too early.

[IUAlum]

I was born in Israel, something like 13th generation on my mom's side. My dad immigrated to Israel in his 20s and then met and married my mom. (His first cousin was my mom's best friend in the army)

We moved to the Chicago area when I was 2.5, intention was to stay for 1 year. Well, 27ish years later and we're all still here!

My mom taught Hebrew school for many years so I went to the Conservative synagogue where she taught but was not Bat-Mitzvahed. It just wasn't something girls have ever done in our family. I may have an adult Bat Mitzvah some day. We'll see.

So raised with all the Jewish traditions (holidays and such) but not so much of the religion (shabbat and kosher and all that). Israeli Jews are pretty much Orthodox or not so much. My mom grew up in an Orthodox house but none of our family is very religious except for my dad's bro who came to it late in life.

But, always felt strongly about dating/ marrying Jewish people. I was very involved in Jewish youth group in HS (BBYO, for those in the know) and even met DH there, though we didn't get serious until many years later.

Had a pretty traditional wedding, the Ketubah hangs in our living room, and our SON, coming in March is going to have the bris to end all bris-es, if my mom has anything to do with it! :)

Other BBYOers around?

[suzubeane]

Other BBYOers around?I wasn't BBYO, but there's an active one in my synagogue now. Great bunch of kids. My son - big surprise - is not interested. However, 5 minutes ago he left the house to go to the JCC down the street for basketball practice; his friends have recently convinced him to join the USY team. He knows it's a Jewish group because it's at the "J", but I don't think he realized USY stands for United Synagogue Youth. (I asked him who the coach was and he said "Some Jewish guy." :rolleyes:.) (My son has a very dry sense of humor.)

I know this is silly, but I checked out the USY website and I got all excited to see that they hold outings and dances and such. When did I turn into THAT Jewish mother? :eek:.

By the way, IUAlum, every Israeli I know in the US expresses the same sentiment you have - that being Jewish in Israel is very different than being Jewish in the U.S. None of them has a synagogue affiliation, but a few of them are butting heads with their U.S. born spouses who are struggling over whether or not to send the kids to Hebrew School. I can see it being a hard question culturally.

[ejs]

Hi. I saw your welcome to Cakes, but just wanted to confirm that it's ok for another non-Jew to be here. My DH is a non-practicing Jew. (Had a Bar Mitzvah, went to temple on high holidays.) Some members of his family follow some of the traditions and some are "active" Jews. I realize that "active" isn't the right word; I mean they go to temple, acknowledge all the holidays, etc. Don't mean to offend anyone with my term.

Anyway, his family is very open to answering all of my questions about Judaism, for which I'm very grateful. I hope that some of my questions will also be welcome here.

I'm not a religious person, but if I like a tradition, I want to experience it. For example, for the anniversary of my mom's death, someone suggested I burn a yartzeit candle and explained the significance. It was one of the most moving and comforting experiences that I've had since my mom died.

My niece's naming ceremony is next weekend. I'm hoping I'll do better than I did at her brother's bris. I was the first person the moyel handed the baby to during the ceremony; I interrupted him to whisper that I'm not Jewish. I didn't know if that would impact the ceremony or not. He kindly assured me it wouldn't. Needless to say, then I was incredibly embarassed. At the end of the ceremony, everyone sang a song that had the words "simi tov and mazel tov." Does anyone know what song that is? I'd love to know the words this time! My Google search didn't fiind anything. Thanks!

[suzubeane]

Simin tov v'mazal tov
Mazel tov v'simin tov
Simin tov v'mazal tov
Mazel tov v'simin tov
Simin tov v'mazal tov
Mazel tov v'simin tov yehay lanu
yehay lanu
yehay lanu
uh l'chol yisrael
yehay lanu
yehay lanu
uh l'chol yisrael
yehay lanu
yehay lanu
uh l'chol yisrael

lather, rinse, repeat.

:) :)

(corrections welcome, all you Hebrew speakers!)

[Mooshie]

I grew up in a reform household and I'm Ashkenazic. My DH grew up in a conservative home and is Sephardic. We both really value being Jewish and enjoy living in an area (West Los Angeles) where there are a lot of us.

[ejs]

Thanks suzubeane!

[southerner]

ejs, of course it's okay to lurk and post :D

IUALUM, I was a hardcore BBYOer. I served on the regional board. I belonged to the Cotton States region (Southeast) and loved going to all the conventions. Almost 15 years later, I still keep in touch with many people I met through BBYO.

[ummserious]

Hi there, I haven't spent too much time posting on CC yet but I thought this thread might be interesting. My ketubah is in the hall near the front door, I wanted to have it in the bedroom but we live in a small place and you can't always be picky here.

I grew up Conservative, I really liked our community (outside Philly) but I am finding that where I live now (right next to Boston) that the conservative communities are a bit more like conservadox which is a little too much for us at least right now. So we're technically reform right now. Growing up we went to temple regularly as a family, kept kosher at home, went 3 times a week for religious school, had a bat mitzvah sans charicatures ;-), and celebrated many of the holidays at home and with the temple. When I was 15 I spent the whole summer touring Israel with a group of young people which was by far one of the best experiences of my life.

I met my husband at a fairly young age when I wasn't so concerned with a long term relationship. Randomly he was Jewish and for many reasons we ended staying together, I think we are very lucky for this to have worked out this way because I cannot imagine my life without him. His background is very similar to mine. We had a mostly traditional wedding as well. At home we are on the cusp of keeping kosher, I do buy shellfish but don't do milk and meat. We have 2 sets of dishes and silverware but that is it...I know this isn't the right way to do it but we just aren't in a place mentally where we will do it the right way. In the future I am open to it.

I guess what I am thinking about a lot these days when I consider who I am and how I will choose to be Jewish. I do not have a lot of spiritual faith, I don't agree with everything I read and I question a lot about organized religion. But I love the traditions: the way our families are and the holidays we keep. My husband and I are usually on the same page and we would like to continue to evolve and grow into the right situation, so we'll see what happens.

[LTJC]

Thanks everyone for the feedback about ketubah location. Ours is still on the floor, framed, looking for a home.

Since the question of latkes came up, here's another question. Hanukkah and Christmas almost overlap this year and with most of DH's Italian Catholic family in town, I thought it would be not only fun, but a wonderful learning experience for DH's family to learn more about Hanukkah and it's traditions. Growing up where I did, I always take it for granted that my non-Jewish friends know as much about some of the Jewish traditions as I do:) . I would appreciate any suggestions for what to inlcude. Here is what I was thinking so far: serving latkes and sufganiot, lighting the Menorah with prayers, playing dreidel games with the kids. My hope, though, is to educate the adults a little bit more...and to make them aware that DS celebrates Hanukkah:) . Depending on how this pans out, I'm thinking about our seder in the spring!

TIA!

[sue-bert]

spps, Are you planning on making aliyah through Nefesh-b'Nefesh? We know several couples who recently came through their organization and were very pleased with how smoothly everything went.

Now it's my turn to ask a question: What's "BBYO"? Oh wait, I just Googled it. Looks interesting.

sue-bert

[villanelle75]

Can any of recommend a way for me to start integrating Jewish traditions into my (and Dh's) life? I get so overwhelmed because there are so many holidays and so many rituals that go along with them. I'd like to start with a few of the more common and meaningful holidays/rituals and start celebrating them. I'd like info on the traditions and the rituals that go along with observing the holidays, but also on the meaning behind them and I'm really overwhelmed and looking for a place to start on integrating Judaism into my life. For example, I plan on making a Seder dinner for Passover and inviting over some friends (though I still need to figure out the menu). I guess I'm looking for "Practicing Judaism 101".

[suzubeane]

LTJC - I hope you take this in the spirit in which it is meant, because it sounds like you generally have the right idea. I may be in the minority here, but I ALWAYS discourage people from trying to blend Chanukah with Christmas.

You already know this, but it comes as a shock to many non-Jews in the U.S. that Chanukah is a very minor holiday in the Jewish calendar. Most of what is made of it in the country has nothing to do with tradition, and everything to do with it's proximity to Christmas. I don't know how your family did it, but many of my non-Jewish friends are surprised to learn that most do not celebrate with huge meals and long visits from far-flung family (like Christmas.) Many families only give small gifts, and only then to the children. Again - it's the proximity to Christmas that has made it more of a consumer holiday.

I'm not saying to ignore it, but I would encourage you to focus more attention on other Jewish Holidays like the High Holidays next fall (serve some apples with honey, get a round Challah) or Passover in the spring (Make a Seder.)

I know that I am more bothered by the "December Dilemma" than most. I hate that phrase because there IS no dilemma. This is Christmas time - I think most Jews get that. I believe it's more important that each of us share our really significant holidays, (and non-Jews DO have one this time of year) than to make something out of a day that is essentially akin to July 4th in importance and meaning.

My 2cents.

eta: OK, I re-read your post, and I see now that you're not *blending* Chanukah with Christmas, I'm leaving my remarks because I still have a gut level response to anything that encourages Non-Jews to believe that Chanukah is as big a deal as Christmas. Or that it *competes* with Christmas. Or that it's the *Jewish Christmas.* (Heaven forbid!) Of course you would never purposely encourage anyone to belive that, but it happens in our culture without our help, which is why I like to tone Chanukah down in the eyes of my Non-Jewish friends rather than build it up. That's my 2 cents more!

[suzubeane]

Can any of recommend a way for me to start integrating Jewish traditions into my (and Dh's) life? www.jrf.org.

(I can't say it enough times!)

[RobynScott]

Hi all! I can't wait to catch up with this thread - seems I missed a lot. I was skimming through and KALOGRIAS - I noticed that you went to Tufts - me too!

When did you graduate? I'm a '98 grad - I live in Philadelphia now. you?

[LTJC]

suzubeane - your comments are appreciated and maybe I should have made myself a little more clear as I am of the same midset as you.

As the Jewish half of an interfaith marriage, I have spent the past few years teaching my in-laws and extended family members about the Jewish holidays and traditions (not just Passover and Hanukkah). As you know, the Jewish holidays have a way of often falling on the weekdays (RH on Monday night of this year) quite a bit so it can be tough to celebrate with the in-laws as they are not local. Because my husband's extended family will be in town for Christmas (staying and celebrating with other family members), it is a coincidence that Hanukkah happens to fall on December 25th when they would all be around. I always make it clear that Hanukkah is not the "Jewish Christmas" nor is Passover the "Jewish Easter". I am using the timing of this to educate as any education is good. FYI - DS gets one small present for Hanukkah - he's most interested in lighting the candles:) .

Hope that clears up my previous post;) .

[suzubeane]

I think I understood what you intended, LTJC - especially on my second reading of your post. And I think it's great that you're sharing some of holidays that aren't as well known by non-Jews with your in-laws.

I still would not make a big deal over Chanukah, and in fact I *don't* when it comes to my own non-Jewish in-laws. (Of course, for my kids, I do ;).)

I have an orthodox friend who is active in the Lubavitch Movement and he would agree with you. For years we've debated the merits of lighting the big public Chanukah Menorah in shopping malls as they do in many cities across the U.S. I think it's a bad idea - that it places too much emphasis (and some might say *competition*) on Chanukah. He - like you - thinks any education is good education. The difference is that he's reaching out to Jews with the big menorah; he feels that if he's reminded even one assimilated Jew that he's a Jew that day, then he's done a good thing. Instead I think it sends the wrong message to non-Jews, and therefore not worth it.

I think it takes a really enlightened Christian - or maybe I should say "Christmas Celebrant" - to understand that celebrating Chanukah in a big big way near (or on) Christmas isn't meant to pump it up to seem as important as Christmas. I just would not expect most non Jews to understand *culturally* that that is not the intention, which is why I play it down rather than up.

It's more important to me that if non-Jews learn anything about Chanukah, that they learn to place the right emphasis on it when compared with our other traditions and holidays. I'd rather they learn THAT over, say, what the letters on a dreidle mean. And I can't convey that message if I make a big deal over a Chanukah Celebration, especially with Christmas looming large.

I know from years on WC and now here - lots of Jews disagree with me.

[curlygurl]

I'm not Jewish, but always interested in learning... I was born/raised Catholic but lost touch with the church at different stages in my life. I've started reaffirming my commitment and beliefs this past year.

I find traditions are such an important part of life. I wanted to say that I looked up "yartzeit" candle after someone mentioned it in an earlier post. My father died earlier this year, and so I'm still looking for ways to help me with this loss. Well, my search on the candle led me to this article (http://www.aish.com/SSI/articleToPrint.asp?PageURL=/literacy/lifecycle/The_Stages_of_Jewish_Mourning.xml&torahportion=notparshapage&author=Lori+Palatnik&teaser=How+to+cope+with+the+emotional+and+spiritua l+issues+a+person+faces+at+this+difficult+time%2E) which I found to be very imformative. I can see how these rituals can be embraced by anyone and how they can be helpful.

I'll be reading along!

[ejs]

curlygurl, sorry I wasn't more detailed when I mentioned the yartzeit candle. I am going to change my personal ceremony a little next year. My mom passed away around 5:15am. It felt a bit strange to me to have the candle burning during the day that she actually passed. So next year, instead of lighting it the night before she died, I'm going to light it the morning before, so it will extinguish around the time she passed.

[RobynScott]

ejs, of course it's okay to lurk and post :D

IUALUM, I was a hardcore BBYOer. I served on the regional board. I belonged to the Cotton States region (Southeast) and loved going to all the conventions. Almost 15 years later, I still keep in touch with many people I met through BBYO.

Southerner - I wonder if you know my friend Diane - she was a pretty hard core BBYO'er from Houston.

[IUAlum]

Southerner- I was very hardcore myself. I was on the Regional Board in Chicago and went to all the summer programs and such, as well as on the March of the Living in 1992. Wow, when I say that, I feel old.
Originally Posted by southerner

IUALUM, I was a hardcore BBYOer. I served on the regional board. I belonged to the Cotton States region (Southeast) and loved going to all the conventions. Almost 15 years later, I still keep in touch with many people I met through BBYO.

[pocket]

Hello! As promised, here is my jewstory:

I was raised Jewish, born to a non-observant secular father and a Filipina former Catholic observant mother. My mom lived with her elder sister for most of her teenage and young adult years. Aunt H converted when she married her first husband, a mysterious arms dealer living in the Philippines with South Africa, Vietnam, and Israel connections. By the time Pocketmom met Pocketdad she had already been living and practicing as a Jew for several years. We were raised kosher-style – we observe kashrut as a spiritual discipline, separate dishes but don’t care about the heksher. Or maybe my mom just likes dishes.

Our family belonged to a Reconstructionist Chavurah called the Fabrangen Cheder Community in Washington DC. The Cheder is about 30 families, all ages, and holds community led study and services weekly at each others’ homes. Children study Hebrew and Judaic studies in age groups led my community members or hired teachers. Adults also study Hebrew or learn prayers or read torah or take turns leading discussion groups. We would celebrate all the holidays together, usually renting a community center for the high holidays. Over the years the Cheder members have become very close – marrying and burying and observing assorted life cycle events together. The Cheder kids all went to camp together when we were 10 or 11 at Habonim-Dror Camp Moshava, a Labor-Zionist Youth Movement Camp in Maryland. Camp was a huge part of my life especially after my family moved overseas in 1987.

In 1990 I went to Israel for the first time on Habonim-Dror’s year-long Workshop program. I loved it. We lived on Kibbutz Urim in the Negev and had a great time. Now came a few years of going back and forth to Israel. I studied there for my Jr. Yr also, at the U of Tel Aviv. I lived in a Jewish coop in college and was active in progressive campus jewish politics. Remember that this was the 90’s – a very hopeful and dynamic time for Israeli-Palestinian relations.

When Pita and I broke up in 1996, I didn’t go out of my way to date Jewish boys. But I didn’t get very serious with most non-Jewish boys. Except for Preacher, my biggest inter-faith relationship. Pita and I don’t attend schul, but we do observe holidays together and with family and both agree that Judaism is the driving philosophy of our lives and the basis for much of our political philosophy and the work that we do. I expect that we will both become more observant when we have children in the home or perhaps just as we get older and more spiritual in general.

We did have a traditional Jewish wedding, and our ketubah hangs in the guestroom.

[zhannushka]

Hello,

Just stumbled upon this thread and I think that I'm going to join :)

Here's my story:

I come from a family of mostly Eastern European jews - my mom's side of the family comes from Poland and Ukraine, while my dad's side of the family comes from Poland, Ukraine, Germany and France. Sometime during the 19th century - both my father's and my mother's ancestors ended up in Russia. Over the years, they've become somewhat "russified", however - did hold on to the most important Jewish traditions and values (more so on my father's side). While my parents have never been overly religious, ever since our immediate family moved to the US from Russia in 1992, we've all become pretty involved with the local Jewish community. We don't keep kosher, but don't eat pork, we light the shabbos candles and celebrate Jewish holidays.

My DH is a Bessarabian (Moldavian) Jew. His family (both mother's and father's sides) come from a Bessarabian shtetl. Which explains the fact that his side of the family is more in touch with their "jewishness". I am not talking about religion per say, I am talking about the customs and even the language (they all speak Yiddish, including my DH).

DH and I were married by a Reformed rabbi in September of 2005. We had a beautiful Chuppah and incorporated plenty of Jewish wedding traditions into our simcha. Here's a picture of us showing off our ketubah.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/zhannushka/pw50.jpg

We live in NJ, in a very Jewish neighbourhood (we bought our first home here in July of 2005) and are currently looking into joining the local Jewish community (the Jewish Center & Synagogue).

I am looking forward to meeting the rest of you!

[suzubeane]

Welcome zhannushka, curlygurl and Robyn! (Did I miss anyone?)

Great idea to post pics - I'm going to keep it going with this picture of my daughter during one Havdalah last year.

http://images7.fotki.com/v144/photos/4/43434/1772982/temple01160503-vi.jpg

(We do Havdalah before Hebrew School on Sunday Mornings, so it was OK that someone too this picture in Shul. :) It's actually from my synagogue's website.)

Pocket, I never knew your mother was Jewish before she met your father!

[sue-bert]

Can any of recommend a way for me to start integrating Jewish traditions into my (and Dh's) life? I get so overwhelmed because there are so many holidays and so many rituals that go along with them. I'd like to start with a few of the more common and meaningful holidays/rituals and start celebrating them. I'd like info on the traditions and the rituals that go along with observing the holidays, but also on the meaning behind them and I'm really overwhelmed and looking for a place to start on integrating Judaism into my life. For example, I plan on making a Seder dinner for Passover and inviting over some friends (though I still need to figure out the menu). I guess I'm looking for "Practicing Judaism 101".

Hi,

I think Passover is a great place to start. I always think of it as THE quintessential Jewish holiday; It really gets to the heart of how Jews came to be defined as a people, and the whole ritual meal centers around explanations and asking questions and learning and discussing. The only downside is that kashrut for Passover is a royal pain.

Regarding seder logistics, maybe it's best to start by attending a communal seder at a local synagogue or Chabad or JCC, at least for one of the two seders, and then going it alone for the other seder. That way you can get some ideas and learn from others (and it'll be less work for you than tackling 2 seders alone!).

Afterthought: I'm so glad I only have one seder to contend with now that I made aliyah.

On a more regular basis, you might want to light Shabbat candles and make every Friday night a special family night (dinner together, no TV/phone/radio; maybe start attending a local synagogue).

Or maybe the local shul/JCC offers some "Introduction to Judaism"-type class?

sue-bert

[villanelle75]

Or maybe the local shul/JCC offers some "Introduction to Judaism"-type class?

How would I go about even finding this? I feel like such an outsider with all this and I just dont' know how to get started. I went to the link Suzubeane suggested and just felt overwhelmed and confused. I didn't know whta half the words even meant ( kashrut ?). I'd love to attend a class of some kindn though I worry that I'll be the clueless random girl in a room full of "real jews" who actually have a foundation in all this where I have none.
I got a recommendation from a WCer who converted for her marrriage. She had great thigns to say about the rabbi who did her conversion and soem of the classes she attended. I emailed him (she said this was his prefered method of communicating) and explained my situation and asked for info on a class but after not hearing back twice, I gave up. I read a great book recommended by Pocket a while back called "what do Jews Believe?" and it was really informative but I'm more interested in traditions cna Judaism as a culture than a spiritual guide, at least for now.


So can someone tell me how to find a local Shul, who to call, what to say? (Do any of you happen to be in the San Diego area?)

[suzubeane]

I went to the link Suzubeane suggested and just felt overwhelmed and confused. Oh, gosh - I'm sorry!

Maybe these will help:

From the JRF Education pages:
Holiday Resources (http://www.jrf.org/edu/holidays-main.html)
FAQ (http://www.jrf.org/edu/faqs.html)

From their Directory of Congregations (http://www2.jrf.org/cong/directory-all.php)
in San Diego: Congregation Dor Hadash (http://www.dorhadash.org/). (I think I once sent LexandCardo now LexuLu this link - you might try to find her here on CC or LJ)

I googled "San Diego" and "Jewish Education" and got Agency for Jewish Education of San Diego County (http://www.ajesd.org/). They can tell you about other Jewish groups and Shuls in your area.

What should you say when you call? Well, you wouldn't be the first person who didn't know where to start! Jews are all about education, and helping people find meaningful ways to learn and observe. At the agency, you might want to talk to someone in who is a director of Adult Education, or something like that. Explain where you are in life, that you don't have a synagogue affiliation yet, etc.

Feel free to tell the synagogues that you are "synagogue shopping." They will recommend you go to a service or an event like a dinner, where no doubt you will be swarmed by people who will be very happy to see a new person. Try not to be put off - yes they want new members, but they also want to know how you found out about them to improve their marketing and outreach. (They are not - as many people think - just after your money.)

[villanelle75]

Oh, no need to apologize! I guess when it coems to the subject, I always end up feeling like there are all these thign that I shoudl know and understand and I get intimidated that i dont' knwo them, adn that prevents me from figuring htem out, if that makes any sense. And yet one of the things that appeals to me about Judaism is the emphasis on education and learning, so it feels like wanting to be educated about Judaism should be something that would be embraced, if I could just find the right "in".

That Agency for Jewish Education site looks a little more my speed, I think. There don't seem to be many adult classes right now but I don't feel so intimdated by the site that I'd feel uncomfortable calling and explaining my plight, which is a place to start.

I think a great deal of my discomfort comes from nto going up with any religion. Because of that, religion (any religion) has always seemed liek such a mysterious and, well sacred thing, and I'm always worried when I dable in the subject that I'll be offending people who take it so seriously. ...like I'm going to call and get some uber-orthadox Jew whose going to think I'm bastardizing his relgion by wanting to "play Jew".

I'll look at the rest of the links when I get a chance. Thanks!!

[sue-bert]

I didn't know whta half the words even meant ( kashrut ?).

Oops. Sorry. "kashrut" = the noun form of "kosher" ("kosher-ness", if that were a word).

I think a great deal of my discomfort comes from nto going up with any religion. Because of that, religion (any religion) has always seemed liek such a mysterious and, well sacred thing, and I'm always worried when I dable in the subject that I'll be offending people who take it so seriously. ...like I'm going to call and get some uber-orthadox Jew whose going to think I'm bastardizing his relgion by wanting to "play Jew".

Perhaps you can try Chabad? They are Lubavitcher Hasidim (a sect of "Ultra-Orthodox" Jews) who have taken upon themselves the task of bringing Jews closer to Judaism through outreach. They are very non-judgemental, non-intimidating, and non-pushy; they help educate many, many Jews who have little or no background in Judaism. They usually offer free classes, inexpensive nursery schools, synagogue services with very clear explanations, etc.

I checked Google and saw that they have two "Chabad Houses" in the S.D. area:

Chabad House - 14 miles N - 10785 Pomerado Rd, San Diego, 92131 - (619) 265-7700
Chabad-Univ City-La Jolla - 10 miles N - 3813 Governor Dr, San Diego, 92122 - (858) 455-1670

You can probably also find them (and other synagogues) by looking under "Synagogues" or "Churches and Synagogues" in your local Yellow Pages.

Also, many synagogues offer "Intro. to Judaism" classes (usually for people who are considering converting, but you could enroll as well).

s-b

[southerner]

villanelle75, It's brave of you to come in here and post your true feelings. I think there are a ton of people who feel that way, growing up in a Jewish home or not. It can very very overwhelming to find "your place" in anything in life, let alone with religion. Just wanted you to know that. Keep us posted!

Southerner - I wonder if you know my friend Diane - she was a pretty hard core BBYO'er from Houston.

Houston was in a different region than I was.

IUAlum, silly question maybe, but is there only one March of The Living trip every year? I had friends that went that year. I'm thinking there's probably tons of trips planned by tons of different agencies/programs, etc. They were changed Jews aftre that trip and I always wanted to do something like that. But, it never worked out for me.

a late welcome to pocket, zhannushka, mooshie, ejs, ummserious, Vishenka69, curlygurl , LTJC, IUAlum, and RobynScott

[IUAlum]

southerner- Back then they only did the March every other year. And yeah, there were many different groups that organized trips, BBYO was one of them, but there was one main "March of the Living" that took place on Yom HaShoa (Holocaust Remembrance Day) at Auschwitz. It was definitely a life-changing experience. Put me on the path that led my to my hubby and a lot of decisions I made in life.
There were people from Southern Region on my bus! I wonder if we know people in common.

[southerner]

I'm having a scary feeling that we know a few people in common (IU as in Indiana?? and MOL). What year did you graduate from IU?

[IUAlum]

I graduated in 98 from IU (as in Indiana University in Bloomington IN) :D

Let's play Jewish Geography!

[southerner]

I graduated in 98 from IU (as in Indiana University in Bloomington IN) :D

Let's play Jewish Geography!


OMG!!!! Check your PM's. We're the same age and I might know who you are.....

[jarm]

I came across this thread tonight. I would like to join.

Here is my story. My mom was Jewish...my dad wasn't. Interfaith marriages when they were married were frowned upon. There are 12 years between myself and my oldest brother. Well, they had just gotten a new rabbi when my brother had his Bar Mitzvah and even though my dad swore that I had the choice, I don't remember. I just remember being told that my mom wasn't happy with the rabbi, so I was never bat mitzvah'ed. We also only really practiced the holidays at home and never went to temple. We were raised being taught the ideas and the traditions of both of our parents religions. It was great for me because I got the best of both worlds.

Now you would think that the rest of my mom's family (my mom had passed away when I was 12 so my aunt...her sister...has basically taken her place) would be understanding when it came time for me to marry that I was not marrying "a nice Jewish boy." Especially given the fact that my father wasn't Jewish. Nope!!! They tried to convince me to find a "nice Jewish boy." DH is Methodist, although not actively religious, and we had the agreement that we would raise our children in the same manner in which I was raised. The only difference is that DH wanted any kids baptized. DD is baptized, but we're not sure what we're going to do with this next one. BTW, I ramble. Sorry if I don't make sense. Anyway, when we got married, I wrote the entire ceremony...mostly secular but incorporating some Jewish parts of the ceremony. We were married by his minister. Many people were impressed with our ceremony and the blending of the two faiths. In any event, this plays an important role because when my dad was dying, he had asked my stepmom to have DH's minister perform the funeral service as he would respect the Jewish beliefs for his kids. This hit home with me and that is why I don't want to baptize this child. That statement pushes me to remember that I am Jewish.

In any event, we have an issue now with naming this child. Some of you might've seen my post a while back in chit-chat. Obviously I named my DD after someone who has passed away (my mom, actually) and DH's family always names children after someone still living. My DD happens to have an R name, which was the first letter of my dad's name and I think that had something to do with the fact that he died three weeks after her birth. Now, we're trying to come up with a name for this child and we have agreed to name him/her after my dad, but DH wants to name a boy after his dad. Well, his dad's last name (different from DHs) is my brother's middle name and even though we wouldn't be naming the child after my brother, I'm just really hesitant about using his middle name. Anyone want to give a little advice about this?

Again, I apologize if none of this made sense as I ramble anyway and I'm tired.

Thanks for starting this thread, southerner.

[starlet35]

I graduated IU in 1997 - I wonder if I happen to know you or we might have had some friends in common from college. I'm from outside Boston, lived in the dorms my first two years and am also Jewish which is why this topic caught my attention. I also had a cousin who went there and graduated a few years after me.

[prudies]

wassup my peeps?

I grew up more or less reform, since that was the only synagogue option in our town. We celebrated all of the Jewish holidays, and I had a bat mitzvah. We fasted on Yom Kippur and didn't eat bread/bread products during Passover but we didn't keep kosher.

As one of a few Jewish kids in my age group in school growing up, I always felt like a bit of an outsider. And it's the little thing that always got me. Like drinking milk with meat. Or eating casseroles and jello salad. My parents were intellectual, former political activist types, and that was a rare find in the small town in which I grew up.

Given my experience growing up, I've been pretty adamant that my DH and I raise our family in a metropolitan area. I want there to be plenty of Jews around, and plenty of other folks too. We just moved to Northern Virginia, which I've just been told has a particularly high number of unaffiliated Jews, apparently. We're still setttling in, but I just attended a tot shabbat at a reconstructionist shul (on the rec of suzubeane), and I really enjoyed it. Right now, it's tough to get to services though, because they're usually when our toddler's sleeping. But he'll get older soon enough.

What else? I guess right now I'm very focused on starting traditions in our home, particularly Jewish ones, now that Elliott's getting a little older. I'm excited to do a lot of the stuff that I think Elliott will enjoy like making latkes, and playing dreidel and lighting the candles, and making hamentaschen for Purim...maybe Elliott can even look for the affikomen this year.

About Chabad...
They are very non-judgemental, non-intimidating, and non-pushy

Really? That hasn't been my impression, but maybe I'm wrong.

[southerner]

Feel free to post questions that we can all discuss. I'll do one that we can discuss as the holidays approach. There are many more I can think of along the lines of this subject.

Do you celebrate Hanukah? In what way do you celebrate it?

[southerner]

Do you celebrate Hanukah? In what way do you celebrate it?

DH and I light the candles most (not all) nights with our cats in our arms (that's the family we're usually with). We say the blessing and exchange gifts each night.

We have varied gift giving each year. Last year we each gave each other a small present every night. This year, we are getting each other 4 things and only one person will get something each night.

For the most part, we've tried to stick to this since we've been together.

[off2skl]

Subscribing..and I'll have to read and catch up later. I grew up in a fairly non religious home, but went to private Hebrew school through fourth grade. Then we moved out here to Arizona and that was pretty much the end of that. Parents disowned me once in college for dating someone who wasn't Jewish.

After that relationship I actually determined for myself that I would prefer to marry someone who is Jewish (not because of my parents). DH is Jewish. We're not overly religious, but it was important to me to be married by a rabbi and we belong to a temple and go about once a month. We'd probably get more involved once we have children.

[off2skl]

Just curious - where in your home does your ketubah hang?


over our bed

[Jaycee]

Hey there fellow MOTs...My dad sent this to me..I thought you gals would get a laugh so I'll share...

The National Education Association is celebrating "Read Across America" by encouraging adults to read to children. Of course, Green Eggs and Ham is one of the most popular Dr. Seuss books. But there's a dilemma - how can Jewish kids celebrate with Green Eggs and HAM? So, in honor of (and with apologies to the estate of Dr. Seuss) here's a new ending for the story:


Will you never see?
They are not KOSHER, so let me be!
I will not eat green eggs and ham.
I will not eat them, Sam-I-am

But I'll eat green eggs with a biscuit!
Or I will try them with some brisket.
I'll eat green eggs in a box.
If you serve them with some lox.

And those green eggs are worth a try
Scrambled up in matzo brie!
And in a boat upon the river,
I'll eat green eggs with some chopped liver!

So if you're a Jewish Dr. Seuss fan,
But troubled by green eggs and ham,
Let your friends in on the scoop:
Green eggs taste best with chicken soup!

AND.........for dessert:

Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream is now available in Israel...in the following flavors:

Wailing Walnut
Moishmellow
Mazel Toffee
Chazalnut
Oy Ge-malt
Mi Ka-mocha.
Soda & Gemorra
Bernard Malamint
Berry Pr'i Hagafen
Choc-Eilat Chip

and finally (drum roll, please).........

Simchas T'oreo.
AND, OF COURSE, ALL ARE SERVED ON A "WAFFLE COHEN"

[pocket]

About Chabad...They are very non-judgemental, non-intimidating, and non-pushy

Really? That hasn't been my impression, but maybe I'm wrong.

I'll agree with Prudies, and even add that in fact I feel the complete opposite from you and find them to be 1) judgmental 2) intimidating 3) pushy.

[villanelle75]

Okay, I think I'll skip calling Chabad!

[pocket]

really, don't. it's not your bag, baby.

[suzubeane]

OK, I'll chime in on Chabad's behalf! I don't find my local Chabadnics to be judgmental, intimidating or pushy. However, I do sometimes feel (and this is probably just my own insecurity at play) that once they find out I'm a Reconstructionist, I'm thought of as "Not Jewish Enough." Actually, I'm not sure the vibe is because I'm Recon, or because I drive 15 minutes to a shul that's out of state instead of immersing myself in a Jewish community here.

The truth is, if I didn't have a friend who was active in that movement, I wouldn't understand that their mission is about Jewish education and service, which really makes them very similar to Recons that I know and love.

[Avalon]

Jumping right in.

DH is Jewish and I'm Presbyterian. For a long time I had thought that I would convert, as I love Judaism. I came to the decision not to for two reasons:
1. DH is much more culturally Jewish than religiously Jewish and would sometimes push back when I would encourage attending services. For someone like me, who gets a great deal of fulfillment from going to religious services, that was incredibly frustrating.
2. It would break my mother's heart. She loves DH and welcomes him as a member of our family, so it's not against him. My mom is very active in the church and I think it's the fact that I am perceives as the most "religious" out of my siblings. Which is true in the sense that a belief in G-d is important to me and I find as much a need to seek G-d through organized religion as through private means. My brothers go to church because they still live under my parents roof but seem to be borderline agnostic and my sister is anti-organized religion. If I were to convert, I think she would see herself as having failed in raising us Christian.

That said, DH and I raising our children Jewish. There will be no mixing of religions. As long as DH and I have lived together, we have always celebrated Jewish holidays in our home (well, at least Passover, Hanukkah, Rosh Hashanah, and Yom Kippur.) We've never had a Christmas tree or anything like that. When we have kids, we will go to my parent's for Christmas, because it is a time to get together as a family. The best way I've explained it is when I tell my parents that our future children will come over to help my family celebrate my family's holiday, but they will not be celebrating, just as when you go to a birthday party, you are there to help celebrate that person's birthday, but it's not your birthday. OK, well, written down it doesn't sound as good, but it helped my parents be very cool with the idea.

I'm so happy because now that we're talking seriously about having kids, DH is actually excited about getting back into Jewish life. We're trying now to find a synagogue to call home. We don't like the Conservative synagogue he grew up in as the Rabbi has said and done some uncaring things. Thankfully, there are several choices in our vicinity (although some of those choices are up to 40 minutes away!)

suzubeane - Why do you think people have that "not Jewish enough" attitude towards Reconstructionist Jews? FIL seemed to have that opinion when DH and I were discussing a Reconstructionist synagogue we were researching.

[suzubeane]

suzubeane - Why do you think people have that "not Jewish enough" attitude toward Reconstructionist Jews?Well, of course not everyone has that attitude, and of the people who do, they might have it for different reasons.

If your FIL is Orthodox or Modern Orthodox, he has a strict interpretation of Torah. I'm pretty sure all Jews are equally encouraged to question as a way of educating themselves, but the orthodox - as far as I know (correct me here please, sue-bert, spps or anyone else) believe that the underlying tenants of Judaism are unchanging.

Reconstructionists believe that Judaism is an "evolving civilization." So while certain beliefs held by Reconstructionists might seem like a "watering down" to someone who is orthodox, to a Reconstructionist it seems like a logical evolution of religious practice.

As an example, Reconstructionists believe in Patrilineal descent. That means that your children will be Jews even if you - their mother - are not. As long as their father is Jewish and they are raised as unambiguous Jews, Reconstructionism holds that they are Jews. But while the subject of Matrilineal Decent is not spelled out in the Torah, but there are enough inferences to it that the Orthodox do adhere to that belief.

Another reason that some people view Reconstructionism as "Judaism Lite" is just ignorance. They don't know much about it - it's the youngest and smallest movement in Judaism. People might have heard a few things and make assumptions. They simply don't know that rituals many reform or conservative Jews consider obsolete or perform only occasionally are common to Reconstructionists.

Some people have *never* heard of Reconstructionism, but they have heard of "Bat Mitzvah" which was conceived by the Rabbi who founded Reconstructionism. His daughter was the first one.

Hope this helps.

By the way, a good term to use when gathering with family on Non-Jewish holidays is "visiting." Lots of people tell their kids "we're visiting Christmas." My husband is a non-Jew, and his family celebrates Christmas. I "visit" it with him.

Also, here is an article that might interest you: Non-Jewish Mothers of Jewish Children Face Some Hard Choices (http://www.interfaithfamily.com/site/apps/nl/content2.asp?c=ekLSK5MLIrG&b=297381&ct=817103) (Although I can't say I recommend everything on interfaithfamily.com.)

eta - I forgot to mention that I can think of about half a dozen families in my synagogue that have your constellation: A Jewish father who is moderately interested, and a non-Jewish mother who fell in love with Judaism and is raising Jewish children but for a variety of reasons does not want to convert. :).

[sue-bert]

Really? That hasn't been my impression, but maybe I'm wrong.
I'm sorry to hear that. I have lots of friends who grew up in the U.S. who told me that they had a lot of positive experiences with Chabad. My best friend's husband grew up in a minimally observant family in Houston, but his parents sent him to low-cost Chabad pre-school and after-school programs, and now he is quite well-acquainted with Jewish laws and customs, and always speaks glowingly of the enrichment he received at these schools.

From my personal experience, when we spent Shabbat at the Chabad House in Bangkok, I was totally blown away with how seriously they take kiruv (outreach) and ahavat Yisrael (loving one's fellow Jews).

Every week, they host free Shabbat dinner and lunch for >150 guests (mostly Israeli backpackers in their late teens/early twenties, plus a random assortment of Jewish businessmen and vacationers passing through town). Most of their guests seemed totally clueless about Shabbat and perhaps about Judaism in general, but the hosts were totally non-judgemental. They guided people when they needed help, and left people alone if they weren't into it.

One young woman showed up for dinner in a bikini and flip-flops (I thought this was plain disrespectful; even if you knew nothing about Judaism, would you show up to a dinner invitation wearing a bikini? assuming it wasn't a beach barbeque?), and they seemed totally unfazed and treated her as a welcome guest.

sue-bert

[pocket]

Aha! Well it’s all clear now. Prudies and I know the exact same Chabadniks and they are pushy and preachy like evangelical Christians. Grrr...Rabbi F’s wife told me I needed to convert to Judaism at my mikveh because it wasn’t fair to my husband. This is because of my mom’s reform conversion, but truthfully if we had been white she would never have asked. The only comfort was that my mother didn’t hear her. Rabbi F himself has also been a huge a-hole to me and mine many times over the years. I find him to be condescending and disparaging of my non-traditional Judaism. He just doesn’t get it. Chabad in Bangkok are lovely people, I’ve been there many times.

[Esq.]

I am not Jewish, but I work in an Orthodox law firm and one of my very best friends, Jeff (who wrote a very short post a few pages back) is a Jew and has taught me a lot about the religion. He even sang his Bar Mitzvah song for me once when we were supposed to be studying for an exam. :D Can I lurk along?

[suzubeane]

One young woman showed up for dinner in a bikini and flip-flops (I thought this was plain disrespectful; even if you knew nothing about Judaism, would you show up to a dinner invitation wearing a bikini? assuming it wasn't a beach barbeque?), and they seemed totally unfazed and treated her as a welcome guest. Great story, sue-bert! I love that image.

He even sang his Bar Mitzvah song for me once when we were supposed to be studying for an exam. :D Can I lurk along?Sure. What's a Bar Mitzvah song?

[Esq.]

I think that it was a recitation that he was required to memorize for his Bar Mitzvah, but it was sung instead of spoken. I don't know what it was really called. 'Bar Mitzvah song' is what is seemed like to someone who isn't Jewish ;)

[southerner]

Krysten, Maybe it was a Torah portion? Each week there is a different one and people who are being bar/bat mitzvahed read the week's torah portion. Although, I think it's possible (don't know enough about all the differences) that different affiliations of Judaism might have different traditions/styles regarding this.

[IrisHope]

I'm surprised by the reaction of this article. What is your opinion? http://www.constantchatter.com/showthread.php?t=11591

[suzubeane]

Well you know what I think (... and now everyone does!)

I wouldn't mind some opinions if people want to go read about an incident with my daughter's teacher. I wrote about in IrisHope's thread starting here. (http://www.constantchatter.com/showpost.php?p=367121&postcount=26)

[IrisHope]

Suz, I think you did the right thing. I was a teacher and the whole happy holiday’s theme is thrown down your face. You have to be all inclusive and it definitely loses the real meaning of holidays and religions.

[spps]

Iris and Suzbeane - I didn't have time to fully read the thread but I agree that people don't understand that we don't celebrate the "holidays" like they do. At work today someone decided to put together a secret santa grab-bag with "no pressure" to join. So when I declined, I made some sort of comment like we don't do holiday gifts in my family, as it is not really a big part of Chanukah and of course I spent the rest of the day defending that statement to those who had overheard and couldn't understand.

Chabad - My experiences with Chabad have been that they are not out to convert or even make people more observant, but rather they try to educate without pressure.

[Jeff]

Kyrsten: I sang to you part of my haftarah portion (quite well I might add). :)

[pocket]

why in the world would chabad give berkeley that guy then? and berkeley has a huge ortho-hippie community too. KWIM with the big knit yammies?

[MrsTazlvr]

Hi ladies. I am not sure if any of you will be able to help me but I will throw my question out there anyway. I am looking for a Hewbrew name for DD#2 who is due in a month. She will be named after the Hebrew names David and Jacob so we need a name with a Daled and a Yud. The hard part where I need some help with is that I know she was conceived on Passover this year. I was using a fertility monitor and I got a peak on both nights of Passover (I think all that wine helped soften my eggs ;) ). Anyway, I would like to try to find a name with a Daled or Yud that would tie in with Passover. So far my Rabbi hasn't come up with anything. He said to give her a third Hebrew name of Aviva for Spring. I would like to be able to use one of the 2 letters I mentioned above. Can anyone help? I looked in a Haggadah, but didn't see anything. Thanks! :)

[IUAlum]

MrsT: I can't think of a D name (although I keep singing Dayenu) but how about Yardena? It's from Yarden- the Jordan River. That definitely has some Passover connotations...

Daniella is a beautiful name, BTW!

[ummserious]

Honestly, Christmas mangers and "Merry Christmas" don't bother me at this time of the year. I am soley annoyed by the bad music (and muzak) as well as the general hysteria that affects making business and daily life more stressful. I know I am a big whiner but the lines are longer, traffic is harder than usual, etc... and generally everything gets affected by Christmas. It is not a feeling of getting left out, I just avoid the stores that I can avoid for my own peace. FWIW, I love Christmas Day because it is a total day off for me. :-)

We really only do a Hannukah celebration with my SIL's family (and the ILs included) because she has 2 kids and the family likes exchanging presents in general. It is a bigger deal with them because (I agree with Suzubeane on this point) they aren't observant and they don't really celebrate anything else. My SIL's family isn't really observant, my ILs are but they will take what they can get from SIL. Since there are candles to light and "gifts to give" it is an easy holiday to celebrate- and it is fun to eat latkes and play with dreidels. The oldest one is 5 and was at a great JCC for nursery school where he got a lot of education in regards to holidays and rituals. Yet, that same year when we went over there to hang out on Christmas Day he shows me his "Christmas Present." Believe me when I say he was well gifted for Hannukah so why do they feel the need to make sure he gets something on Christmas too when they have decided to raise him as Jew? He is now in public kindergarten but in a very Jewish town where the High Holidays yield days off for everyone. They travel with us to the ILs every year for the High Holy Days and SIL finds a reason every year why the kids can't attend the kid's service- they all stay home or go out to a diner for breakfast. Her husband is not Jewish but he is not the one objecting to attendance-- he is not religious and participates in anything that she does. Frankly, I find this to be a terribly materialistic message-- **celebrate the holiday when gifts are involved and otherwise stay home.** No one even expects her to go, we all just want to bring the kids so they can make up their own mind. They stayed home on Yom Kippur and she took the 5 year old to the dentist. She is like the wicked child mentioned during Passover yet she loves to call herself Jewish when it is convenient. I love getting the "Jews do this and don't do this" speech from her on non-Jewish activities and decisions. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I am not opposed to people not being observant- please don't read this that way. I know I wouldn't be considered observant by some Jewish people when it comes down to it. I guess her actions just don't make any sense to me, particularly at this time of the year.

As for the teacher thing, it sounds to me as though she didn't really take the time to think about what you were suggesting and she doesn't feel like taking the time to work out a better way to educate the children on what different people do to celebrate holidays all year. It is possible she has a good reason or "inclusion rules" from the school but her response was not very well thought out for an educator.

Off-topic: has anyone seen the documentary Paperclips? I found it really interesting that this teeny town in Tennessee with no Jewish people ended up creating a huge Holocaust memorial.

[MrsTazlvr]

MrsT: I can't think of a D name (although I keep singing Dayenu) but how about Yardena? It's from Yarden- the Jordan River. That definitely has some Passover connotations...

Daniella is a beautiful name, BTW!


Thank you for the compliment and the advice. I was thinking about using Daniella for her Hebrew name, too. Some books said it is a Hebrew name like Daniel and Danielle. It's been a long time since I was in Hebrew School and I forgot a lot. How is the Jordan River tied in with the story? I thought it was the Nile River. :confused:

I also came up with Jada which I think means wise.....like the wise son?!?! Do you think that would work?

[IUAlum]

Well, after all the years in the desert, they have to cross the Jordan to get into Israel. So it's kind of the very end of the Passover story...

I like Daniella as a Hebrew name as well.

My English and Hebrew name are the same and I like it! :) (I was born in Israel though, so my name was a Hebrew name before it was an English name)

[pocket]

Dalia, Danya and Dina (Dee-na) are all spelled with daled and yud. All three are nice in English too.

[villanelle75]

I'd like to make Latke's for our "holiday party" next weekend (Sorry Suzu!!). Anyone have a good recipe?

[suzubeane]

I'd like to make Latke's for our "holiday party" next weekend (Sorry Suzu!!). Anyone have a good recipe? I do, but I'm not going to share it since you said "Holiday." :p

Latkes are just grated potatoes, salt, some egg, some grated onion, and something to bind it all together like Mazto Meal. Of course you need oil - I use a light veg oil. I like to grate the potatoes and salt them, then let them sit in a colander so all the water is expelled and drips out. Mix the other ingredients, and then go.

I like to have more than one pan going. Heat the oil, and drop the latkes in. I always make the mistake of making them too dense at the start. They really can be quite "lacy" plus then you're sure the potato cooks all the way through.

You can make some in advance, and then put them on cookie sheets with paper towels in the oven to stay warm while you're making the rest.

If you need exact proportions of the ingredients, I'm sure there are recipes on the net. Let us know how they come out. :).

[pocket]

villanelle - the salting and draining part is very important! drain as much liquid as possible out of the grated potatoes or the latkes will steam instead of fry.

[spps]

mrs Tazlvr - I came up with 2 names for you one for each letter. For yud there is yocheved who was the mother of moses. For Dalet there is Drora which means freedom.

[suzubeane]

MrsTazlvr - I don't have any name suggestions for you, but I wanted to say congratulations, and that my daughter was conceived on pesach, too! (her birthday is Jan. 2.)

eta: I love the name Yocheved that spps just suggested! At our Seders, when we take our 4th cup of wine, we remember Miriam, Yocheved, and Midwives Shifra and Pua - strong women. (I got this from an old feminist Hagadah. ;).) That would be a great namesake for your little girl.

um - that's weird about your SIL. Maybe she feels like she's not knowledgeable enough to Jewishly educate the kids, and her DH is not Jewish. I think a lot of people don't realize that the Jewish community will help you educate your kids!

My step-sister used to be that way. She is a single mom (no Dad; she adopted) and she used to do things like hide easter eggs for her daughter to find! :eek:. In 2002, she came to my son's Bar Mitzvah, and she saw how comfortable my kids were on the bima, and that my daughter - age 6 at the time - lead a few of the songs, and knew a lot of the prayers. She said she wanted that for her daughter (same age) and I *told* her that her Jewish community would help, but she still didn't do anything about it.

Then suddenly, last year, something snapped. I think it was when her daughter could not remember on which holiday we play "hide the matzah" :rolleyes:. She hadn't been concerned by the lack of a Jewish population in her town when she bought her house, but suddenly, it became a big deal. She eventually ended up two towns over in New Jersey at an Orthodox shul! This community is now educating her daughter with their own kids (there are 4 kids in the class) without regard to the fact that my step-sister has no Jewish education (she dropped out of Hebrew School) has never practiced seriously as an adult, is not a member of the synagogue, and her daughter was adopted, but never formally converted.

So I guess you never know. In my family, the child of the least observant of my siblings is getting an Orthodox education!

I can't remember if you said you belong to a synagogue - do your in-laws? Maybe you and the in-laws could take the kids to some family activities at the shul, like Tot Shabbat or a family dinner.

I think you're right about my daughter's teacher. I was just really thrown for a loop by her response.

spps - that's one of my pet peeves about this time of year; people don't take no for an answer even if there's no "anti-Christmas sentiment" intended. I used to work in a large company, and every year my department secretary would take the Christmas Tree out of the closet - fully decorated - and stand it up. Then she'd crack open a package of cardboard decorations and start hanging them up around the room.

Once she was hanging these giant cardboard tree ornaments - one over each cubicle. I didn't want one, because I could see it reflected in my monitor and it was distracting. Plus I'm a designer, and I thought they were really ugly and tacky! So of course, I had to do damage control later because everyone assumed I didn't want one because I was Jewish!

[MrsTazlvr]

I knew I could count on the ladies of CC. Thank you all so much. I think we will be keeping her Hebrew first name as Daniella and now we have to decide on the middle name. I will run them all by DH. So far here's what we're looking at:

Daniella Yocheved (Moses's mother)
Daniella Yardena (after the Jordan river)
Daniella Jada (means wise- for the wise son in the story)

What do you all think? I think DH and I leaning towards the first one because it directly ties in with Passover. No Moses's mother, then no Moses, then no Passover. ;)

[IUAlum]

I think Daniella Yocheved is beautiful.

[Alicia]

Just stumbled upon this thread tonight, and wanted to join-in and say hello! I see a lot of familiar faces from the WC days - so I'm happy to have found this.

Here are my experiences and a little about where I am now.

My family has always been Reform, although when we moved to California when I was 9, we wound up joining a conservative shul because the Hebrew School I attended in Boston (where i was born) was more advanced than the reform hebrew schools in California. I have a feeling the synagogue in Boston was borderline Conservative, but we had a woman rabbi and in those days, she was lucky to be leading a Reform temple.... I was Bat Mitzvahed but not Confirmed.

I was extremely active in BBYO (Southwestern Region - and attended International summer programming in the summers of 90 and 91).

Moved to DC for school and was active in Hillel for a few years.

I was married in 2001 with a traditional wedding ceremony (chupah, hora, ketubah, etc. etc.) and moved to Baltimore to a very Jewish neighborhood. For the first time in my entire life, I was no longer part of a "minority." I was very enthralled at first with living in such an active Jewish community where even the public schools were off on the high holidays, it was a new experience. Over time, however, I began to realize that the community was very closed-minded and being Jewish no longer felt special to me. (i have a feeling this was specific to baltimore, and not necessarily other large Jewish communities found throughout the country). I missed the diversity of other communities. At the same time I was realizing how important the Jewish traditions were to the family, and rather than focusing on the meaning of the religion, I was eager to create my own new traditions surrounding the Jewish holidays.

Last year my marriage fell apart, I moved back to D.C. and I've begun rebuilding my life. During this time, more than any other part of my life, I've felt the most distant from my Judaism. In fact, I'm even planning a dinner party for Christmas Eve with festive decorations (snowflakes, glitter, etc.) I've realized my eagerness to do this is because I want to be able to celebrate a holiday that doesn't drudge up anything from my past. That's not to say I plan to sit around singing Christmas carols that night (all my guests are Jewish), but with Judaism being such a family-centric holiday, this year, I've been avoiding a lot of that.

This past year has been such a rollercoaster of conflicting emotions, that I think I've been scared to face G-d or religion (the whole "why do bad things happen to good people" question keeps resonating). At the same time, a former colleague (and still a close friend) who is very active in her church has provided me with amazing comfort. I long to have the same kind of spirituality she does to get through life's difficulties. (don't worry she's not trying to convert me or use bible passages, it's hard to explain, but there's just some kind of a deeper understanding of *something* that she posesses).

Anyway, I'll stop babbling, I'm glad this thread is here, maybe it'll help me reconnect a bit.

[ummserious]

suz My husband and I belong to a synagogue in Brookline and my ILs belong to one in Connecticut. My SIL also lives in Brookline but has avoided joining a synogogue due to JCC membership costs. (I remember from WC you are from RI so you'll recognize Brookline at least) We still tend to visit our families for holidays rather than celebrate in MA.

I wish I could believe some of your guesses on my SIL but the story is so involved, she is very selfish and rude in regards to so many things that I shouldn't be surprised to disagree here. I vent online a lot because my husband really prefers not to hear it. I know there is a level of knowledge involved to the problem but she was educated the same way as my husband. I'm sure there is some lack of knowledge involved but it is definitely a game with the family as well. I can't explain the look the on my mother-in law's face when she got the call on Yom Kippur regarding the dentist visit, there was no reason to tell her such a thing. One of my sisters is definitely less observant and she just chooses different actions. SIL is adopted, my husband is not and sometimes I wonder if that has anything to do with her choices. She has long been enabled to be the drama-filled bad child of the family. Again, not that it is bad to be observant but she really likes to straddle the line and then make a big deal out of it. She will find a reason for us not to take the children to tot shabbat even if it involves finding a medical reason out of thin air.

I suppose our best course of action is really just to be available to the kids as a close friend and their only aunt so that if they ever want to understand more and learn more I will be accessible. My ILs seem to be taking a similar approach.

Alicia After years and years of celebrating holidays and discussing Judaism with my husband I can see where you are coming from, I am sorry it has been so hard. I hope everything comes easier for you with time and I am hard pressed to find a problem with hosting a dinner party, one of my favorite ways to celebrate anything. :-)

[sue-bert]

Once she was hanging these giant cardboard tree ornaments - one over each cubicle. I didn't want one, because I could see it reflected in my monitor and it was distracting. Plus I'm a designer, and I thought they were really ugly and tacky! So of course, I had to do damage control later because everyone assumed I didn't want one because I was Jewish!
Gee, suz, why not just hang a giant cardboard **dreidl** over your cubicle instead? Happy Holidays!!!







(kidding...);)

[Esq.]

Mrs. Tazlvr- I am not Jewish, and I have no idea if these will help, but since they start with D, I thought that I would try.

My boss is Orthodox, and he gave all of his children hebrew names. He has three daughters and one son. His daughters are names Devora, Dina and Rachel. It seems Rachel will not be helpful bc it does not start with a D. But maybe Devora or Dina will be helpful to you.

[suzubeane]

Gee, suz, why not just hang a giant cardboard **dreidl** over your cubicle instead? Happy Holidays!!! Well, done sue-bert!

(Now let me just pick my jaw up off my keyboard ...! ;) )

[suzubeane]

Um - it does sound like your SIL is using Jewish practice (or lack thereof) as a way to poke at your ILs. That's too bad. I wonder if it had anything to do with her being adopted - my niece is adopted (not the one in Orthodox Hebrew school - a different one!) and her older sister is not. I know my brother and SIL have already gone through the first conversion process with her, but when she's older, she'll have to formally accept Judaism before she can study for her Bat Mitzvah. Her older sister will not have to do this, and sometimes I wonder if that is going to build up resentment for her.

Anyway, it sounds like there's a lot more going on with SIL than just choices around Jewish practice. You are smart to try and position yourself as "close and friendly aunt" to the kids. Living in Brookline, at least they'll have a lot of exposure.

Alicia - Welcome! Your path through Judaism is an interesting one, to be sure. Of course, I wouldn't be me if I didn't recommend you go to the jrf website (http://www2.jrf.org/cong/directory-all.php#Maryland)and find a Reconstructionist Shul or Havorah! ;). (Yes, it really is my answer to everyone and everything!)

Seriously, if you are more interested in community, tradition and home ritual than in attending services, for example, you'd probably fit right in. Check out the site, and please ask any questions here.

Jeff - I don't know if I could sing any part of my Havorah portion at this point! (We just passed the 29th anniversary of my parsha :eek: )

[sue-bert]

suzu,
The first thing I checked on the internet after Shabbat let out was this thread to verify that you realized I was joking!

s-b

[suzubeane]

suzu,
The first thing I checked on the internet after Shabbat let out was this thread to verify that you realized I was joking!oh, THAT's funny, too! No, your comedic timing - even in this medium - is very good. :).

[suzubeane]

Hey, everybody ... look at these pictures of the sukkah I designed from my synagogue's website:

http://www.agudasma.org/images/page1pics/sukkot%20102305-007.jpg

http://images15.fotki.com/v245/photos/4/43434/2809517/sukkot102305008-vi.jpg

I know it's hard to see, but I'm really proud of this thing. It's a modular design (see how the plywood slips into the wood columns?) that I designed to be assembled by people with no carpentry skills whatsoever. I envisioned the construction as a community event for all ages, and it really is. It's like a barn-raising - the only skill required is showing up! We've used it for 8 years running.

(eta: the white "tent/shelter" behind the sukkah is not part of it. That's up three seasons in case we want to eat or hold a meeting or class outside.)

Speaking of Sukkot, on Friday night in synagogue I re-learned something I had forgotten. I've known all my adult life that "the legend of the oil" on Chanukah was just that: a legend, added hundreds of years after the Maccabee's victory. Apparently, Scholars believe that the holiday held immediately following the war was Sukkot, hence the 8 day celebration. The thought is that they could not observe the holiday *during* the war, so they did immediately following.

Has anyone else heard/read this? What do people think about it?

[sue-bert]

Suzu,

That is an awesome sukkah! How big is it? It's hard to tell from the photos.

s-b

[suzubeane]

Thanks, sue-bert. It is about 16ft x 12ft. It's based on the modular unit of a piece of plywood!

I was excited to be asked to design this thing because it was the first time I was able to combine what I do professionally with my Jewish life. I had to do a bit of research to find out what makes a sukkah "Kosher." (No metal in the roof, a perforated top so the stars can be seen.) Growing up, the reform shul my family attended used to build them with the sides about 3/4 high. I always liked that as a kid because you could see out. It was less claustrophobic, so I designed this one the same way.

After we put it up, the rabbi called and asked me when it would be done! She thought the sides needed to go all the way up, and I freaked out because I had not read anything to that effect. She made a few calls and called me back to say it was fine. Phew!

[suzubeane]

I decided to make the photos above into links for the sake of privacy - there are a lot of people in them. (I may eventually delete them altogether.)

Where is everyone?

I forgot to mention that a tefila band has just formed at my synagogue, and my daughter is playing in it! She has studied Suzuki Violin for nearly 5 years, and this will be her first chance to play with other instruments. I'm very excited for her - she is the only kid in the group, and she was able to keep up with about three quarters of what they played. And she had never seen the music before. (It had been e-mailed to others, but they seem to have forgotten the one kid.)

The band will make it's debut on Shabbat Shira in February. Should be interesting to see how it is received. There are mixed feelings even in the Recon community over whether or not instruments should be played on Shabbat. The idea is to stick to Tefila (prayer) music, and not entertainment. (Although they will probably play at some social events, too - just a different playlist!)

[southerner]

suzubeane, You seem to have a very active synagogue. That's neat! You're lucky that you got the opportunity to build the sukkah and combine your love of architecture and Judaism.

I've been reading all the religious threads in Chit Chat lately, but haven't posted. Mostly, b/c sometimes I do not feel either educated or opionated enough to jump in and start posting. It seems like most of the threads have successfully covered the gammet of opinions out there, so I have learned a lot from simply reading along.

Alicia, It's a shame that some of your Jewishness has negative feelings for you (mine does too, actually). Just wanted to remind you that you do have lots of fond memories of your experience as a Jew, don't lose sight of those during the holiday season, which can be extra difficult to deal with.

MrsTazlvr, Did y'all decide on a name?

villanelle75, Did you end up making latkes? How'd they come out?

[southerner]

Off-topic: has anyone seen the documentary Paperclips? I found it really interesting that this teeny town in Tennessee with no Jewish people ended up creating a huge Holocaust memorial.

I haven't seen the documentary, but I did see an Oprah episode about it. She had some of the students involved on and a Holocaust survivor (there's so few left these days!). I've been meaning to see it. Has anyone seen it? There was a thread (http://www.constantchatter.com/showthread.php?t=11819) about it recently.

[Avalon]

That sukkah is great! I can't wait until we have kids ~ DH doesn't want to build one until then. We met the rabbi who married us during Sukkot; I loved her sukkah ~ she hung a candle chandlier in the center.

[suzubeane]

It seems like most of the threads have successfully covered the gammet of opinions out there, so I have learned a lot from simply reading along.Really? Then you know that I am smug, self-righteous, rude and condescending! :p :).

[southerner]

Really? Then you know that I am smug, self-righteous, rude and condescending! :p :).

Okay, so maybe not every single post, but I knew that before these threads surfaced :p





You set yourself up for that one, kidding, of course ;)

[pocket]

We make our sukkah out of PVC pipe! this year, Pita and I made a sukkah for the Berkeley Bayit, the Jewish group house we lived in when we were in college and first going out. We had made one when we were in college, but the diagram of how it goes together got lost and then they didn't realize that the pvc pipe in their basement was really a sukkah. this time we LAMINATED the instructions so that they will last.

[LTJC]

southerner - I have seen the Paperclips documentary about three times now on HBO. It is a fascinating story and I recommend it to anyone. I think DH was on the verge of tears while watching it; I was a mess when the Holocaust survivors were speaking to the townspeople. I think I read that the DVD version is being released soon.

[southerner]

pocket, Is your DH's name Pita? Very unique. I like!

LTJC, I was a mess just watching a tlak show about it. I can't imagine the entire show.

[ummserious]

I saw Paperclips as well. What I found to be the most interesting is that the teachers really didn't have a lot of information when they started the project, they just realized how insulated their town was. There is very little diversity there and the teachers wanted the children to understand that they simply needed to respect those that people that are different, a lesson on the Golden Rule really.

Aside from the Holocaust aspect of this, I was really touched by the male teacher's story. This man admitted to growing up in a racist household, having a friendly relationship with his black roomate in college but still using offensive racist language around him and then even feeling bigoted against children because he didn't think they were capable of new and interesting ideas on their own. His learning situation here was huge.

[suzubeane]

Okay, so maybe not every single post, but I knew that before these threads surfaced :p Of course! What was I thinking?

[villanelle75]

OUr party is Saturday and things have been so crazy this week with work and other random life stuff that I still haven't done much thinking about a menu. I'm a lousy chef prone to idiotic mistakes so I generally won't make something for guests without a trial run first but since this sounds really easy, I may go for it. Not sure. I'll let you know how it works out if I make them.

[ummserious]

villanelle75 Do you have a Trader Joes near you? They actually have pretty good latkes in their frozen section, not quite as good as home-made but one of the best subs that I have had.

[pocket]

pocket, Is your DH's name Pita? Very unique. I like!

LOL - No, his name is Micha. I call him Pita because I'm Pocket and pitabread is middle eastern and so is the name Micha. Get it? Pocket, Pita? I didn't find out until later that PITA means Pain In The Ass, but by then it was too late to change it and plus it's funny!

[suzubeane]

Pocket - I Always guessed where Pita came from, but where did Pocket come from? That's so cool that you helped the Group House figure out their Sukkah! Last year when we took ours down, it was just one other guy and me. We made a diagram as we dismantled and saved it, but no one ever thought to use it this year. :rolleyes:

Um - frozen Latkes! Perish the thought! (Tempting, though ...) Actually, we have made them for Hebrew School parties. I don't have a Trader Joe's down here, unfortunately.

villanelle - you don't need a trial run on your latkes; they come out differently every time anyway. I forgot to mention that you should use a food processor, and peel the potatoes. At least I peel 'em. I don't know what others do.

Avalon - maybe you can convince DH that you need to practice building a sukkah a few times before little ones are underfoot. :). To be honest, I don't have one at home. The one at shul is sort of my baby, and I devote so much energy to making sure it gets built every year that I haven't had one at home. But that's OK. We're remodeling so there's enough construction going on here.

Southerner - I have not seen Paper Clip, but after everyone's comments I'm going to look for it.

[pocket]

Pocket was my name for my grandfather. When I was first learning to talk, I used to sit on his lap on long car trips in the passenger seat (no, we didn’t have car seats and in fact didn’t even start using seatbelts for a long time.) My favorite game was taking all the credit cards and ID’s and things out of his breast pocket and then putting them back. Soon I was calling him pocket and it stuck. Everyone called him Pocket after that. He died of a heart attack while skiing in West Virginia in 1984 at the age of 75.

[suzubeane]

That's a sweet story, Pocket. Even that he was skiing at 75! Our neighbor across the street is 89 and was told by his doctor to stop skiing two years ago!

[southerner]

pocket, cool stories! I love when things simple like that have such deep meaning behind them.

suzubeane, NOW, you're cool :p

Must. See. Paperclips.

[suzubeane]

Has anyone noticed the thread in chitchat called Are you friends as/less/or more religious than you are? (http://www.constantchatter.com/showthread.php?t=12081) It's been up for about six hours. There are 32 replies, and only one of them is a Jewish person. (Shout Out to IrisHope!)

It's possible that people just haven't seen it; maybe they're at work and they haven't logged on to cc. But I have another theory. I think the word "religious" might not sound exactly right to our ears.

I'm not planning to post there, (I've been pretty overexposed this week on religion and holiday-related things) but if I did, I'd probably surprise a lot of people by saying that I consider myself moderately observant, but not religious. The word "religious" conjurs up images of this country's political right. Conservatism. Rigidity. Inflexibility. And none of these things describe Judaism to me.

More importantly, I think that to call myself religious, I'd have to have much more of an unwavering certainty about God. The Jewish mode of education is to question - we're encouraged to question in a way I'm not sure the major religions in the U.S. are. I'm allowed to have questions, to have conflicts, and still call myself a Jew. Still be observant. I don't even know how other religions would look at that.

I read once that in order to believe in the Covenenant between God and the Jewish People, one need not be certain about God, one need only be certain about the Jewish People. This really resonated with me, because I could never put my finger on why it so many U.S. Jews identify so deeply as Jews, even at times when they're not sure about God or about Judaism or not being particularly observant. The term "Cultural Jew" just didn't seem to describe it completely.

I dunno. To me, the question of how "religious" one is can't be posed to a Jew the way it can be posed to someone whose yard stick is a measurement of church attendance (as I'm seeing over in that thread.) Or am I completely off?

What do people think? Can you describe your relationship to Judaism by how "religious" you are or are not?

[southerner]

I think for Jewish people, it's more like "how observant are you?"

I am a lot more observant than I am religious. Here's a definition I found:

re·li·gious-Having or showing belief in and reverence for God or a deity.

Synonyms: religious, devout, pious
These adjectives mean having or showing a belief in and veneration for God or a divine power, especially as it is reflected in the practice of religion. Religious implies adherence to religion in both belief and practice: The cathedral at Chartres is an expression of the religious fervor of the Middle Ages. Devout connotes ardent faith and sincere devotion: Devout Muslims observe Ramadan punctiliously. Pious stresses dutiful, reverential discharge of religious duties: a pious woman who attends Mass every morning.


So yes, suzubeane I agree!

[prudies]

The secret to latkes is parboiling.

Am I more or less religious than my friends? I have to go with "observant" too. I think I'm the same as most of my Jewish friends, although many of them had a more observant upbringing, I think. Or maybe it's just that I never got to go to camp! I don't know enough songs. :p

[villanelle75]

I todl you all I was an inept chef. To reiterate that point, i must now confess I don't even know what "parboiling" is.

Perhaps Trader Joe's is the way to go then.:(

[pocket]

I don’t know….I am strongly Jewish-identified without being very observant. I don’t keep kosher, but I was raised kosher. I don’t keep Shabbat, but I know Shabbat. I don’t go to services, but I am siddur literate, I can still read trope (as I discovered at my aufruf, Suzu will remember), and Judaism is the cornerstone of my ethical self and my family life. The fact that I am neither religious nor observant doesn’t mean I am not Jewish or that I am in any way divorced from Judaism. We’re just on a break.

[sue-bert]

I think for Jewish people, it's more like "how observant are you?"

ITA. Nothing else to add...

s-b

[ummserious]

Judaism is also kind of unique in that we have different groups within the same umbrella that have specific names, and by these names you can tell a lot about where that person chooses to place themselves. Using the word observant might be helpful but I think it is a little more than that.

This might be similar to what some of you have said but I feel that so much of the mainstream Christian religion is based on having faith and then all else flows from that. There is certainly an element of that in any religion by definition but Judaism definitely encompasses more than faith imo.

Just for the record on latkes: frozen is not better but if one must eat latkes and can't make them well on their own I certainly suggest Trader Joes. I have never bought them myself but one of my husband's cousins buys them and serves them and they are a very very close substitute. This always was kind of funny to me because she is a very good cook but I guess she really doesn't like making them.

[honeygirl]

Ladies is it alright if I ask a question about Judiasm? I have a question about a verse in the book of Esther.

I'll wait to see if it's alright before I ask it. :)

Thank you,

Anne

[pocket]

Ask away!

[suzubeane]

Ask away, honeygirl! But be forewarned, you might get many different interpretations here. Or just mass confusion. :). Either way, it won't hurt to ask.

[suzubeane]

Pocket! We posted the same time using the same prhase. Must be a Jewish thing. *shrug* ;)

[honeygirl]

Okay thanks.

In Esther (one of my all-time favorite stories BTW) 8:17 it talks about how many people of other nationalities became Jews after the king's second verdict (where the Jews could fight back).

The verse says that they became Jews because "fear of the Jews had seized them".

So, my question is how did one go about becoming a Jew back then? Is it the same as now? Were they joining more of the culture of Judiasm than the religion? Would the Jews have been opposed to people joining for fear reasons rather than the right reasons?

Any insight would be appreciated.

Thank you and have a peaceful Shabbat!

[suzubeane]

Honeygirl - Purim (when we read the Megillah - Scroll of Esther) is a fun-filled holiday when children dress up in costume and are encouraged to make lots of noise, while adults are supposed to drink, sing, make gifts of food, and contributions to charity. At the same time, the story itself has a pretty gory ending, with lots of death and destruction. I can't speak for others here, but as child, I was blissfully unaware of this!

Not surprisingly, the Megillah translations I've seen are very different from the new testament text you quote - I'm sorry, I don't remember a thing about people converting. (Feel free to jump in and refresh my memory, anyone!)

I wonder if it's possible that people weren't *becoming* Jews, but rather, declaring their Judaism? Coming out of the closet as Jews, so to speak, once it became safe to do so. I know that the King decreed the Jews could fight their enemies, but even with all the blood and gore, I don't remember anything that indicated it had become unsafe to be anything but a Jew.

To answer your question, conversion to Judaism involves
-Circumcision for men (Brit milah or a Brit-dam if he's already circumcised)
-Immersion (t'vilah) in a mikveh (ritual bath)
-Understanding and acceptance of the obligations of being a Jew.

After that, a Beit Din (panel of three Rabbis) meets and confirm the conversion.

My guess (and it really is just that) is that the requirements have always more or less been the same, but that the third step (Understanding and acceptance) is the one that probably had different burdens of proof in earlier times, and has always subject to the most interpretation. (eta: I also don't know if the Beit Din was always a requirement, or if that's a more recent development.)

Is there a wrong reason to convert? I suspect there are commonly held opinions and maybe even laws about what the wrong reasons might be. But even those are subject to interpretation. For example, I've heard that some Rabbis say that marriage to a Jew by itself is not enough reason to convert, yet I know Rabbis who say that honoring one's spouse is a mitzvah, and therefore a fine reason to convert.

Gee, wasn't that helpful? :o

[honeygirl]

suzubeane - Thank you for answering, yes it was helpful. I'm not surprised that as a child you didn't learn all the gory parts of the story, I didn't either with most Old Testament stories. They left the blood covenants off the flannel graphs, LOL.

BTW, Esther is in the Old Testament. I know that Jews have the Torah and NOT the new testament. But do you follow/use the other old testament books?

I wonder if it's possible that people weren't *becoming* Jews, but rather, declaring their Judaism? Coming out of the closet as Jews, so to speak, once it became safe to do so. I know that the King decreed the Jews could fight their enemies, but even with all the blood and gore, I don't remember anything that indicated it had become unsafe to be anything but a Jew.

That could be. From my reading before Esther's involvement the Jews were persecuted, especially with the decree Hanam was a part of. Then after the Jews were allowed to fight back and were supported by the kings court, so perhaps they became more powerful than other cultures? Then maybe other "closet Jews" felt free enough to come out?

Thanks again for taking the time to offer a suggestion. I really don't know where else to ask questions. :)

[suzubeane]

honeygirl - I actually came back to re-read my response because I was afraid I had misrepresented today's conversion process. I didn't mean to diminish the learning and studying that Jews by Choice undertake nowadays to meet the requirement that they understand and accept the obligations of being a Jew. I realize the way I presented it might have seemed dismissive of that.

BTW, Esther is in the Old Testament. I know that Jews have the Torah and NOT the new testament. But do you follow/use the other old testament books? I know Esther is "Old Testament," but Jews don't use this term - we say "Bible." What other religions call "Old Testament" more or less correspond with the Torah or Tanakh. (Again - asking for clarification from those here who are more well-versed than I; Feel free to jump in any time, people!)

So yes, that we use the other "Old Testament books" would be a fair characterization. ;).

Then after the Jews were allowed to fight back and were supported by the kings court, so perhaps they became more powerful than other cultures? Then maybe other "closet Jews" felt free enough to come out?I don't know that at ANY time the Jews would have been considered to be "more powerful than other cultures." That's why the quote about "fear" really stumped me. Could it have been "fear" meaning "reverence?" Not reverence of Jews, but reverence of God - they were free to worship God as Jews once again. I dunno - I could be way off. Have I mentioned lately that Jews are encouraged to question? ;)

I really don't know where else to ask questions.

There are lots of places on the 'net to learn about Judaism and conversion. I like to send people to Judaism 101 (http://www.jewfaq.org/index.htm) because it's easy to navigate and has a good search function, but be warned that it sometimes over-simplifies. There are plenty of sites that deal just with conversion, and I'm sure if you Googled, you'd find many.

[sue-bert]

BTW, Esther is in the Old Testament. I know that Jews have the Torah and NOT the new testament. But do you follow/use the other old testament books?
The other "Old Testament" books are also part of the Hebrew Bible. That's why Christains call them the "Old" Testament -- we Jews were using them already when Christianity decided to add something to them! :)

The Bible in Hebrew is called the Tanakh, which is an acronym for Torah (the 5 Books of Moses; i.e., Genesis through Deuteronomy), Nevi'im (Prophets), and Ketuvim (Writings; stuff like Chronicles, Megillat Esther, etc.).

I am not certain, but I think there may be one of two books that the Christians decided to include into the "Old Testament" that Jews do not recognize as Canonical (i.e., the books of the Maccabees). Perhaps someone else (honeygirl?) can confirm this.

As for the quote from Megillat Esther:
In Esther (one of my all-time favorite stories BTW) 8:17 it talks about how many people of other nationalities became Jews after the king's second verdict (where the Jews could fight back).

The verse says that they became Jews because "fear of the Jews had seized them".

As understand it, once the Jews got the upper hand and were given permission to exact revenge, many non-Jews suddenly declared themselves Jewish in order to protect themselves from attack. According to the commentaries I looked up, these people did not convert (converts go through the process that suzu described), they just basically lied as a temporary measure to protect themselves from harm.

sue-bert

Edited to make correction: Judges is part of Nevi'im, not Ketuvim

[suzubeane]

The Bible in Hebrew is called the Tanakh, which is an acronym for Torah (the 5 Books of Moses; i.e., Genesis through Deuteronomy), Nevi'im (Prophets), and Ketuvim (Writings; stuff like Chronicles, Judges, Megillat Esther, etc.). I did not know that Tanakh was an acronym!

I am not certain, but I think there may be one of two books that the Christians decided to include into the "Old Testament" that Jews do not recognize as Canonical (i.e., the books of the Maccabees). Perhaps someone else (honeygirl?) can confirm this.My husband mentioned something about this, and said that different branches of Christianity have different inclusions - he's no expert, just very well-read, and was Catholic for his first 13 years. ;).

They just basically lied as a temporary measure to protect themselves from harm.I was hoping it wasn't something like that.

[sue-bert]

I was hoping it wasn't something like that.
Why? :confused:

Hmmm... now that I think about it, it does sound a little odd, considering our history, for people to pretend to be Jewish to avoid *us* harming *them*. (whodathunk?)

Then again, Megillat Esther is all about disguises, hidden secrets, and absurd twists and turns of fate...

s-b

[sue-bert]

BTW, I made a mistake in my post #159: The Book of Judges is part of Nevi'im (Prophets), not Ketuvim (Writings).

[suzubeane]

Why? :confused:

Hmmm... now that I think about it, it does sound a little odd, considering our history, for people to pretend to be Jewish to avoid *us* harming *them*. (whodathunk?)s-bWell, that's part of it. It's also just that not a flattering image of anyone involved.

[pocket]

I asked Pita about this and he pointed out a few things - first of all, I think that Megillat Esther takes place during the Babylonian Exile and so that is 1)before Rabbinical Law and 2) between Temples. I am not so sure how someone would have converted in this period, and I don't really think anyone knows. Probably marrying someone is a good way to become a Jew, and there may not have been a formla process given the lack of Temple, or there may not have been a formalized process givne the lack of Rabbinical law. You will recall that the Prophets from this period are very concerned about the foreign born wives so probably that is how people changed religions, by marriage. Maybe by joining the household of a Jewish person too - like as an apprentice or a laborer of some sort. It's just speculation really. Megillat Esther was canonized in the Second Temple period, right? It didn't actually happen, or at least we can't prove that it did, so it's really meant to be allegorical. It's less interesting for it's historical importance, and more for it's spiritual lessons.

[suzubeane]

It's less interesting for it's historical importance, and more for it's spiritual lessons.My take on it is that the story is derived from History, because of events in Persia known to have happened, and people known to have lived around the time the story is set.

I keep trying to convince my son to dress as "drag queen Esther" every year, but so far, he's not having any of it. :rolleyes:. I have convinced my daughter to go as Vashti a few times. *Someone* needs to give Vashti her props!

[pocket]

I am sure it won't surprise you to know that I went as Vashti every Purim for years.

[southerner]

suebert, I'm trying to PM you (and have tried in the past), but it says your box doesn't accept them. Maybe you can set it to accept them from certain people?

[sue-bert]

southerner,
(I think) I changed my settings so I can accept your PMs. I hope it works!

Looking forward to hearing from you :) ,
s-b

[suzubeane]

sue-bert, I'm so sorry the "Wal-Mart Joke" thread was locked. I could have to kissed you after your post (http://www.constantchatter.com/showthread.php?p=397635#post397635) there!

[pocket]

[shakes head]

Ah, the goyim. They think they know, but they don’t. Unlike in their religion, you don’t get progressively more politically and socially conservative the more observant you are.

[Esq.]

Just wanted to jump in, since there was speculation about why I answered for Gayle, wnd how I could. I didn't get there before the thread was locked.

I never said that her equation of Jewish/Orthodox with conservative was correct. I just knew that that was what she was trying to get at through natural deduction.

She was defending herself from attacks. In her defense of herself, she pointed out that even her friend thought it was funny. why point that out unless the friend was really conservative (meaning not likely to find it funny/personality being conservative)?

Maybe her friend happens to be very conservative, as well as orthodox or conservative (religious beliefs being conservative) and so she equates them.

Whatever the connection, I was not commenting on the connection itself. I was simply saying that what I thought she meant was that the friend was conservative, bc, in the context in which it was said, that was the only meaning that made any sense to me. Conservative, to me, does not always mean Conservative Jew.

[suzubeane]

Just out of curiosity, Krysten - did you happen to notice Pocket's comment right above yours?

[southerner]

Krysten, If anyone stops by this thread to post, I wish it would have been Gayle. I don't know if you're being her puppet or if she's just not woman enough to post :confused:

[IrisHope]

I do understand what she was trying to say but it felt like a gratuitous addition to her point. The point that bugged me was that she did not answer for herself. She could have called her friend conservative and left it at that.

[Esq.]

Southerner- I am no one's puppet, and I resent the implication. I simply clarified what I thought that she was trying to say. Go back and read it. It is pretty clear that I was just trying to calm the situation down based by saying what I thought Gayle was trying to say.

If you want Gayle to answer your question...PM her.

I posted in this thread simply to clarify my own comments. Again, if you read what I posted, above, I think that is pretty clear as well.

Suzu- yes I noticed pocket's comment. Again, I was clarifying that I do not equate Jewish/Kosher with conservative, but decided that is what she was trying to say based on natural deduction. I explained my thought process above.

My post in this thread was, again, simply to clarify my own posts, and were made in response to Suzu and pockets posts in this thread.

ETA: the only reason I know what is being said in this thread is bc I am subsribed to it. Gayle may not know that she is being discussed in this thread, or that her presence is requested. Someone can PM her and let her know that you would like her to answer your questions here. But short of that, I doubt she knows that this conversation exists.

Oh, and my name is KYRSTEN

[southerner]

It is pretty clear that I was just trying to calm the situation down based by saying what I thought Gayle was trying to say.
I don't know if you care or not, but your post actually did quite the opposite of "calming the situation." (for me, at least).

I posted in this thread simply to clarify my own comments. Thank you for clarifying your comments.

Gayle may not know that she is being discussed in this thread, or that her presence is requested.
You very well could be right. OTOH, since this thread has almost 3,750 views, there's a chance she knows :rolleyes:

Oh, and my name is KYRSTEN
my bad! I hate when people mess up my name, seriously!

[Esq.]

Well, I am sorry if my attempt to shed a different light on Gayle's post did not help matter any. I tried. That is all that I can do.

I think the problem may lie in some people's interpretation of "conservative" as "conservative Jew".

I do not use the word conservative to mean Conservative Jew. Conservative has a definition all of its own, and it is that definition that I intended to employ. Perhaps, in light of the discussion of religion, I should have realized that conservative would be taken that way. But, alas, I did not. I am sorry for any confusion.

[pocket]

I’m not sure where to post this…..

I’m on a hate list! There’s an organization called masada2000.org. It seems like a whacko’s website, it’s full of insane diatribes on self-hating Jews and how there’s not such a thing as “Palestine” and “Palestinians”. You know who I mean? Then there’s a list he is keeping of “Self Hating Jews and Israel Threateners” (SHIT list) and I am on it. A long time ago, I was in a group called Jews for Justice in Israel and Palestine started by my friend Indigo. When Sharon came to DC we protested outside the Hyatt. I spoke to a journalist about our group, and then added that I thought Sharon bore the responsibility for war crimes and that as a Jew I was ashamed that he was the Prime Minister of Israel. The reporter asked me why I felt shame, and I said, well it’s kind of shame by association, like if you had a famous child molester in your family. Of course the quote in the paper was that I said “The policies of Israel in the West Bank and Gaza are so horrible that I feel like I have a child molester in my family.” Now I am on this list with that misquote attached to my name. It makes me nervous.

[suzubeane]

I think the problem may lie in some people's interpretation of "conservative" as "conservative Jew". Honestly, I doubt this has any bearing on any of this; at least not for anyone here. I think most posters to this group have a basic understanding about what prompted Gayle's comments, and it was characterized very well by pocket's last post. That's why I asked if you'd seen it.

Kyrsten (sorry for getting your name wrong earlier) - I must confess to being a bit confused. Your intention was to further explain Gayle's comments and to clarify your own posts by way of responding to mine and to and pocket's? I don't see how your posts are even *related* to mine or pockets, and Gayle herself did not see a need to explain her comments in the thread she locked. With all due respect, it would appear that the main reason for your posts is to reassure this group that you have an awareness of AN issue which not even THE issue that's of main concern.

I think your suggestion to PM is a good one. I've already PM'd with Gayle today, and perhaps, you should PM with whomever speculated about your reasons for speaking on Gayle's behalf - especially given your MOD status. The Wal-Mart thread has already been dragged into other threads today, complete with admonishments from MODs that doing so violates CC rules. IIRC, MODs have their place to discuss things and "decompress" and although it is public, this is our place to do the same. I do not want to see this thread closed because a locked thread was discussed here in detail. Thanks for understanding.

[suzubeane]

I’m on a hate list! There’s an organization called masada2000.org. It seems like a whacko’s website, it’s full of insane diatribes on self-hating Jews and how there’s not such a thing as “Palestine” and “Palestinians”. You know who I mean? Oh, pocket - that's terrible!

I guess I wonder if this guy is such a whacko, can being on his list really hurt you in any way? I mean besides being called a "Self-hating Jew" - which is a horrible way to be characterized, not to mention just wrong - is there any reason to be fearful? (Either for your reputation or your safety?)

[villanelle75]

Pocket, it might be worth PMing Kalogrias for info on the group. She works for a Jewish civil rights org and might have some thoughts or insight.

[Avalon]

pocket, is it just your name listed, or is it also your picture and identifying information? I appreciate your concern and I'd be more concerned the more information they have about you.

It's sad that questioning the actions of a government or a people can cause anyone to label another as "self-hating" and worse, "Jews for a Second Holocaust", even if the person doing the labeling is whacko.

[pocket]

It's my maiden name, the city where I currently live and the old quote. It also states that I am a member of a Brit Tzedek v' Shalom (true) and has the old quote from 1999. It's pretty freaky actually, though I guess I should be proud. It makes me scared that someone is going to firebomb my house or burn a cross on my lawn. Not that my lawn is anything great, it would probably be improved by some burn marks.

[Esq.]

Suzu- with all due respect owed to you, you brought the other thread into this one. I had subscribed to this thread, openly, quite some time ago.

I got an update, and saw your post. I did not say anything. Next came pockets post, and I decided that, considering I had asked to join this thread, I should clarify what I said in the Wal-Mart thread in order to avoid an confusion or hard feelings.

I did just that.

I chose to respond to southerner here bc she asked the question here. There is nothing wrong with that.

I suggested she PM Gayle bc I cannot answer for Gayle, nor did I attempt to answer for Gayle in the first place (in the Wal-Mart thread). I simply stated my own opinion on the issue concerning what Gayle was attempting to express with her statement.

I am not a MOD in this forum, and my status as a MOD does not prevent me from participating in any forum. I don't need to decompress and was not using this forum to do so. I think that I have made it clear that I was simply clarifying my part in the conversation in the Wal-mart thread after that thread had been reference twice here.

I do not want this thread to get even further off track, so I am going to go back to lurking as of this post.

[prudies]

I don't need to decompress and was not using this forum to do so.

Right, but we might want to "decompress" here, and I don't mean re-argue what's already been discussed in another thread.

As my toddler says, "chilllll baby!" Ok, so he's just imitating me, but it's still funny when he says it.

Anyway. Pocket, wtf? Do we need to go kick some ass? That sounds scary? Who reads this list?

[suzubeane]

Suzu- with all due respect owed to you, you brought the other thread into this one. Kyrsten, if you believe it's fair to compare a lighthearted remark from one member of this group to another with your three detailed, self-explanatory posts; or that Southerner's remarks were meant as a question to you; Or that I was implying that YOU needed to decompress here; Or that your entire last post should not have been delivered to me in PM; Or that your participation here could ever have been characterized as "lurking"; Or that any of us really needed Gayle's remarks explained ... well ... I guess there's just not much about this episode we see the same way!

Looks like we've moved on to something more pressing now. Thanks again for understanding.

[suzubeane]

Prudies, I was talking to DH about this, and he seems to think that pocket has recourse because she was misquoted. He suggested having an attorney contact the guy to let him know about the inaccuracy; that the whacko won't be able to cite his first amendment rights to publish her name and personal info once once he's been made aware the quote is not attributable to her.

What do you think, pocket? I think villanelle's suggestion to PM Kalogrias is a good one.

[southerner]

Gayle may not know that she is being discussed in this thread, or that her presence is requested. Someone can PM her and let her know that you would like her to answer your questions here. But short of that, I doubt she knows that this conversation exists.

I've seen her in here twice today. Gayle, if you're going to read along at least turn on your invisible mode. You're only making yourself look worse :mad:

eta:fixed typos

[southerner]

Pocket, In the midst of all the other stuff going on, I forgot to comment on your situation. That website is messed up :eek: How long has this list been out? A long time and you're just learning about it or it's new? And how did you find out? Just curious. Seems like you have gotten good suggestions here, keep us posted.

Looks like we were a popular group yesterday, ladies :rolleyes:

[prudies]

Prudies, I was talking to DH about this, and he seems to think that pocket has recourse because she was misquoted. That makes sense to me. I'm kind of just guessing, but I would think that printing (even if it's reprinting) a misquote is libel, and you should be able to prevent him from posting the quote with your information. Hopefully there's an organization that can help you, but if not, I'm happy to do some research.

On the subject of Christmas...

For those of you who do not take any part in Christmas, what do you think is the best way to deal with Santa Claus? Let me be more specific. I have an 18 month old, and our mom's group had a Christmas party this past weekend. Elliott's not at an age where he would get who Santa is obviously, but I decided not to go because I didn't want to have Santa's presence seem like the norm for our family, kwim?

My earliest memory of the subject is my mother explaining to me that Santa Claus wasn't real, but to be respectful of other kids and keep that information to myself. I also remember our first grade class writing letters to Santa, while I wrote a letter to my parents asking for gifts for Chanukah! Kind of bizarre. I always feel like I had a good sense of pride in our own culture, and no desire to celebrate Christmas, but was able to "visit" (as Suz says) Christmas on occasion at friends' houses. I felt like the balance was there, but I'm not sure how my parents really achieved it. My mom has passed away, so I can't ask her, and I have a feeling my dad's memory will be fuzzy here. Truth be told, I don't know if it was really a concious decision on their part. Anyway, I'd love to hear others' opinions on this.

[ummserious]

Hey Prudies,
Santa is going to be around his peers a lot for a while, my personal opinion is that it is not terrible for him to be exposed to it. It is an interesting age because holiday "people" like Santa and the Easter Bunny are really kld-accessible and we don't really have anything like that. I have noticed my neice and nephew (age 2 and 5) love lighting the candles on Shabbat (while at my ILs not at my SILs...) and now that my nephew knows the prayers he loves to be the main singer. My neice is too young but she gets excited by the light and is familiar with it. So it just takes some time I think.

I grew up with a lot of Jewish friends but also a lot of Christian friends. My parents let me go next door and help decorate a friend's tree or go to a friend's Christmas Day dinner if I wanted. It was at someone else's house and I understood I was a guest just like they all sat through my bat mitzvah service. If I wanted to go it was usually more out of wanting to spend more time with a friend. They were very good about making sure I was active and educated with my own traditions so I was never wistful or confused.

[suzubeane]

They were very good about making sure I was active and educated with my own traditions so I was never wistful or confused.This is exactly what I was going to talk about. Prudies, I think if you ask your dad, you'll find the answer is hazy because they didn't do any one specific thing *this time of year.* The balance is achieved by fostering a love of Jewish tradition year-round.

Here in the U.S., we can't avoid Christmas. It's pervasive, and I think that trying to avoid it (unless you intend to send Elliot to Day School) would fail anyway. Better to just be prepared for it, and take it year by year depending on the circumstances and his understanding.

For example, he did not miss going to Mom's group because he is not aware of any schedules, and Mom's group is not a requirement. When he gets older, you'll have to judge - is the presence of Santa worth his missing pre-school for example? Is it worth disrupting his whole schedule over? You'll cross that bridge when you come to it based on his understanding and your comfort level at that time. But by then, he'll already have an understanding of "what Jews do" (ear round) and that will inform your decision.

My son's pre-school did have a visit from Santa each year, and I let him go on those days. Like your mother, I just explained to him that other kids believed in Santa, and he should be respectful. I honestly don't know if he realized that other kids talked about/had images of/got visits from Santa at home. For all I know, he thought Santa was just a guy who came to pre-school. He sat on this red-suited guys lap, and got a toy. That was the sum of it.

As we've discussed before, I do avoid Christmas-themed activities with my kids, unless we are invited to someone's home to share a tradition with friends. For example, I won't take them to any Christmas-themed plays or movies, and I ask my mother and other Jewish friends not to either. But if a friend invites them, they're free to go if they want to. As you say, I don't make it "the norm for our family."

[southerner]

From a "kid" who was not given those choices, opportunities and education that ummserious and suzubeane speak of, I resent my mother (and maybe even a small part of my "Jewishness") for that.

[RobynScott]

Hi Prudies,

both of my parents are Jewish, but I remember believing in Santa Claus when I was a kid. We always celebrated Chanukah, but I remember at least one year when my presents were laid out on the floor, from Santa, I think. I wanted to understand how he would get in since we did not have a chimney.

Now, we never had a tree (and I NEVER would) - and I always knew I was Jewish - but somehow, believing in Santa - that he could come for me too even though we did not celebrate Christmas was not a problem for me.

I have always enjoyed the Holiday/Christmas season (whatever you want to call it) - and the decorations, and even the hired santas and all - but that has never interfered with my jewishness. I think (at least for me) there are ways to enjoy it without actually believing in it.

I hope that makes sense - not sure if it did. When we have kids, I imagine I won't mind them thinking about santa - as long as they grow up knowing without a shadow of a dount we/they are Jewish. (and that Chanuka is not the Jewish Christmas, even if it is fun to get gifts :) )

[prudies]

Just to clarify, I'm not planning on hiding Santa from Elliott, or Elliott from Santa. :p I'm just trying to think about how to talk about Santa and Christmas.

The balance is achieved by fostering a love of Jewish tradition year-round.

They were very good about making sure I was active and educated with my own traditions so I was never wistful or confused.

ITA with this! And being part of a strong Jewish community helps.

For example, I won't take them to any Christmas-themed plays or movies, and I ask my mother and other Jewish friends not to either. I see where you're coming from, but I guess I see a distinction between Christmas activities and art appreciation, or whatever. We saw the Nutcracker ballet in NYC when I was little (and was taking ballet at the time) and I really enjoyed it. On the other hand, I'd probably skip some crappy Tim Allen Santa Claus movie or something. ;)

I have noticed my neice and nephew (age 2 and 5) love lighting the candles on Shabbat (while at my ILs not at my SILs...) and now that my nephew knows the prayers he loves to be the main singer. My neice is too young but she gets excited by the light and is familiar with it. So it just takes some time I think.

I think I'm just now beginning to feel rested enough to think about beginning family rituals. Lat year, for example, Elliott took an extra long nap and we missed the Purim carnival!

I'm absolutely over the moon about baking hamentaschen with Elliott. I made these about a year and a half ago with my friend (pocket's very good friend!) Hans (when I was pregnant) and I got completely emotional when I thought about doing it with the future Elliott!

Robyn It's so interesting that you could never have a tree, but feel entirely comfortable with Santa. I couldn't have either in my house, personally. They're just both so quintessentially Christmas to me! And I feel like (for me) Christmas is a beautiful thing to watch and observe from a distance, kwim?

[suzubeane]

I see where you're coming from, but I guess I see a distinction between Christmas activities and art appreciation, or whatever. Yeah, I know what you mean. My daughter's class is going to the Nutcracker next week, and they need parents to go, but I find that I'm just not interested. But we've watched its a wonderful life, for example.

The problem is that my mother usually watches my daughter (and my son when he was younger) during school break. A movie is a fun activity for them, but many times, the choices include some Tim Allen Santa Claus movie! Those are the situations I avoid; part of creating a strong Jewish community (outside a synagogue, I mean) is to make sure the Jews in your life are not the ones doing the non-Jewish activities with your kids. (And I don't mean generic things, but specifically related to another religion or tradition.) I would have a problem if a Jewish friend wanted to take my daughter to see a Tim Allen Santa Claus movie, but not if a non-Jewish friend did.

Lat year, for example, Elliott took an extra long nap and we missed the Purim carnival! Funny you should say this because for years, I intentionally avoided the Purim carnival. We'd go hear the Megillah at night, but I had *issues* with the carnival itself. Mainly, I have yet to see a synagogue that can pull off a successful carnival without cheap, plastic prizes, designed to end up in a landfill (bad for the environment) and even worse, made in China by people who were surely paid so little they could not afford to buy the goods they were making. I hate to be a party pooper, but as Jews, should we really be sponsoring this? Think about it ... there but for the grace of God go we. That could be us!

----------> stepping off soap box now. (ahem)

Prudies, when we get closer to Purim, I expect to see that hamentaschen recipe here! :)

[suzubeane]

From a "kid" who was not given those choices, opportunities and education that ummserious and suzubeane speak of, I resent my mother (and maybe even a small part of my "Jewishness") for that.Are you saying you weren't permitted the choice to "visit" Christmas? Or that you weren't given an education in Judaism?

(and by the way, I love the Wonder Woman av!)

[MrsTazlvr]

I think I am lucky this year that I don't have to worry about these issues with my 2 year old yet. She goes part time to a temple preschool and the moms group that we are in is a Jewish Moms group. I started the group myself a little over a year ago and we now have 30 members. It's great being in a group with other Jewish mommies and kids. We are having a Chanukah party next week. :) I am not sure what I will do with DDs when they are older, but I guess I should really start to think about it now. ;)

[RobynScott]

Robyn It's so interesting that you could never have a tree, but feel entirely comfortable with Santa. I couldn't have either in my house, personally. They're just both so quintessentially Christmas to me! And I feel like (for me) Christmas is a beautiful thing to watch and observe from a distance, kwim?

True - I guess I should clarify that I would never have a Santa in my house either - or any type of Christmas decoration (in fact, I decorated a gingerbread house this weekend and started out with all blues and stuff to make it not christmasy, *lol*) - but believing in Santa as a kid (and later, Chanukah Harry :) ) - wasn't really a big deal to me.

I guess I could never have any of that stuff in my house - but to me Santa was about as religious as the tooth fairy - so no real religious connection for me - just a kolly old fat guy :) hehe

and I LOVE christmas carols - but you should hear how I need to hum certain parts of God Rest Ye Merry Gentlement b/c I am not comfortable saying the words, *lol*

I guess we've each got our own comfort levels and idiosyncrasies (of which I have many :))

[southerner]

Are you saying you weren't permitted the choice to "visit" Christmas? Or that you weren't given an education in Judaism?

I meant I was not given the choice to "visit" Christmas, let alone have any non-Jewish friends or dates. I feel like my education in Judaism was crammed down my throat and in doing that, they forgot to educate me about other holidays, religions, etc. that existed in the world. I rebelled by moving away.

I have never seen Tim Allen's Santa Claus movie, but how does that qualify as a Non-Jewish activity? I thought it was a comedy about a Santa Claus. Does it go into the religious aspects of Christmas that detailed? As a teenager, it only made me more mad at my parents when they wouldn't let me do things like this. These are the things I resented at that age. I knew I was Jewish going into the movie and would still be Jewish coming out of it. I think my parents always read way more into it than I would have ever thought. I saw it as going to a movie with a friend, I guess they saw it as "doing a non-Jewish activity."

[suzubeane]

I have never seen Tim Allen's Santa Claus movie, but how does that qualify as a Non-Jewish activity? Because it is about Christmas, and Christmas is non-Jewish.

I saw it as going to a movie with a friend, I guess they saw it as "doing a non-Jewish activity."I guess my opinion falls somewhere in between. It's a non-Jewish activity that I will allow my kids to do, but I don't want "Jewish sponsorship" of it, if that makes any sense (meaning no one in their family will take them. Their Jewish friends are like-minded, so it wouldn't be an issue of getting invited by one of them.) I liked Prudies characterization of "family norm." It's not what we do.

I know some people make the "secular Christmas" distinction, but I don't. I'm trying to understand it because people here seem to think that's important, but honestly, it makes no difference to me, and as a U.S. Jew, I know I'm not alone. There is a large segment of the Jewish population whose Jewish Identity is rooted in the notion that "what makes me Jewish is that I don't celebrate Christmas."

I guess I should clarify that I would never have a Santa in my house either - or any type of Christmas decoration (in fact, I decorated a gingerbread house this weekend and started out with all blues and stuff to make it not christmasy, *lol*) Robyn, is a gingerbread house a Christmas decoration? To me it is, but I have to confess, it is the one that I DO think wistfully about. To be fair, I'm pretty sure it's just my fascination with the building process reassigned to baked goods!

[RobynScott]

Robyn, is a gingerbread house a Christmas decoration? To me it is, but I have to confess, it is the one that I DO think wistfully about. To be fair, I'm pretty sure it's just my fascination with the building process reassigned to baked goods!


I'm not sure. I'm sure it doesn't have to be. A neighbor invited me over to do it - very sweet. Her house was like walking into a candy store - literally! and most of the decorations fell into the red/green category so it looks christmasy. I'm sure with the right decorations (or done at a different time of year) - it would be a non-Christmas decoration. The decorations were a lot of red and green and santas, etc. so it *looked* christmasy even if not a christmas decoration per se - does that make sense? :)

I was funny though - we got a christmas tree for inside the house and I refused to put mine inside, *lol*

I think with your background you would love the building and decorating process. me - I only had to decorate - but I definitely think you could do it in a non-christmasy way.

[southerner]

I guess my opinion falls somewhere in between. It's a non-Jewish activity that I will allow my kids to do, but I don't want "Jewish sponsorship" of it, if that makes any sense

My opinion falls somewhere in between as well. I'm past that rebellious stage and getting ready to start a family of my own. I don't want to make some of the mistakes I resent my parents for, but as a parent that must be a continuous struggle. So when I, as a parent, will still be struggling with my own "Jewishness," it will be hard to balance. I'm not sure where I'll fall on the spectrum. I guess a major factor is if I ever get involved in the Jewish community here. Don't get me wrong, we won't have an tree or christmasy decorations around, but I want to give my children opportunities/choices/life lessons that I feel like I missed out on.

There is a large segment of the Jewish population whose Jewish Identity is rooted in the notion that "what makes me Jewish is that I don't celebrate Christmas."


For this time of year, sure. Do you think there is a large segment of our population who would say that year round about their Jewish identity?

[suzubeane]

Do you think there is a large segment of our population who would say that year round about their Jewish identity?I've never heard anyone actually *say* it any time of year, but I know there are unaffiliated Jews who think this way when Christmas comes to mind (that is, any time of year) or when they're asked to participate in something inherently non-Jewish. We used to see threads on WC all the time from non-Jews who could not understand why their non-Observant FH was digging his heels in over having a priest at their wedding.

(And FWIW, I don't blame the non-Jewish half of interfaith relationships for being confused. It's not easy to explain Jewish identification.)

You would not nearly be the first person to fall away from Judaism with every intention of raising Jewish children. The path I followed was very similar. I'm not sure what would have happened if I hadn't found a community that aligns with me not just Jewishly, but socially and politically. But I am in no way raising my kids the way I was raised - Jewishly or otherwise. Well, I'm sure there are SOME similarities, but my mother always comments on how different things are for my kids. (Not in a bad way. She's learned to hide any disapproval. ;))

But back to Christmas ... I'm not sure if I shared this idea here, or somewhere else, so forgive me if it is a repeat. The point is this: I suspect that many people who celebrate secular Christmas celebrated it religiously as children. By continuing to celebrate it secularly they can share a beloved childhood tradition with their kids, without adhering to any particular religious beliefs.

We can't do that. We don't have any holidays that are celebrated in really big secular ways, so the decision to observe rituals in a meaningful way (and not in a vacuum) is the decision to raise Jewish children. In all the discussions that have gone on here with respect to any Christmas observance, I never got the impression that the secular celebrants understood that about us.

[pocket]

Last night I spoke to my friend Indigo who founded Jews for Justice in Palestine and Israel and also Brit Tzedek v’Shalom the two groups from which the whackos got my name. She said not to worry about it. Apparently they are just a moderately whacko but extremely evangelically well-funded group, and they aren’t violent. They got their hands on a mailing list and made this website. I should just take it as a badge of honor, and enjoy being in such grand company. She said she was actually getting her degree in Arab Studies at the time she found out about it, and compared with what her classmates were going through in terms of harassment it didn’t seem like that big of a deal. So I think I’ll just ignore it.

But it does make you think. Pita’s grandparents were prevented from reentering Argentina when they made ali-oops (AKA yeridah) because Safta had signed a bunch of papers regarding her political and religious affiliations. They went to live in Uruguay and then immigrated to the US from there. I am certainly not so naïve as to think we are guaranteed to enjoy this level of political freedom for eternity.

[prudies]

She said not to worry about it. Oh good.

I am certainly not so naïve as to think we are guaranteed to enjoy this level of political freedom for eternity.
I think about this a lot.

Back to Christmas...

I have to admit I haven't seen a Christmas movie with Tim Allen either! I just threw that out there as an example of a Christmas-themed movie that has little artistic merit (sorry Tim Allen fans)!

I just sort of blurted out my "family norm" comment, but now that I think about it, it makes the most sense to me, because I think that's pretty much how I was raised. One year, we drove around to look at a block of houses decorated with Christmas lights (this is sort of a famous block in So Cal, I think). I remember seeing the Nutcracker a couple of times. I'm certainly familiar with Christmas traditions, and wasn't prevented from visiting them with friends, but we didn't have any Christmas traditions, kwim?

[spps]

On the Santa Claus topic ......
Santa Claus to us was always kinda like the tooth fairy. We always knew that my father was the tooth fairy and there is no such thing and in the same way we knew that Christian kids believed that Santa brought them presents but it was really their parents.

We never had the chance to visit Christmas itself but my parents would drive us around the neighborhood to look at all the pretty lights, and we would see my neighbors and their families all show up for Christmas dinner etc... but at the same time we never felt that we were missing out on anything - we had our holidays and they had theirs.... Also, I was in day school so the whole Christmas thing was never a big deal. Christmas was that day of school when there were no buses and some teachers were out.

[kalogrias]

PocketI PM-ed you. Sorry, didn't see it until today -- haven't been to this thread in a while.

[southerner]

I'm going to toot our own horn here for a minute. Check out this post in the thread in the Chit Chat section about us. I was so flattered that I had to come in and post it.

http://www.constantchatter.com/showpost.php?p=405283&postcount=59

[suzubeane]

Thanks for posting that, southerner - and welcome to SingleWhiteFemale. Lurkers, feel free to introduce yourselves, ask questions, whathaveyou!

Pocket, I'm glad you're feeling more at ease over the whole wacko's website ordeal. What indigo said made a lot of sense. I'm curious, though - when was Pita's Safta asked to sign papers regarding his political and religious affiliations?

This brings up an interesting (kind of related) topic: Are any of you concerned about anti-Semitism? Not globally - obviously that's always a concern. I mean more on a personal level. I'm sure we've all had the experience of dealing with the obnoxious, irritating variety (people using the term "Jew it down," for example.)

Me? Here's a confession: I don't talk about it much, but I have always had a nagging fear that my son (age 16 now) will be the victim of a hate crime. As my daughter is getting older, I'm starting to worry about her, too.

Does anyone else think this way? This might be a factor of the larger issue of my kids attending urban public schools.

[Avalon]

I'm constantly amazed by the anti-Semitic statements and behavior I hear and witness. I think I'm more sensitive to it than DH since he grew up with what suzubeane refers to as the "obnoxious, irritating variety" and has since been, well, not desensitized, but almost reluctantly accepting of it.

I have rational and irrational concerns about anti-Semitism when it comes to our future child(ren.) The rational concern is that they'll hear and be hurt by the terms "Jew it down" and the like. There's nothing I can do about that other than raise them with a pride in who they are. All children are picked on for something, and I recognize that their being Jewish will be a likely source of taunts and ignorance. I'm also scared of hate crimes. My irrational fear? That DH or my future children will be wearing something that identifies themselves as Jewish (like DH's Chai pendant) and be hurt or killed because of it. I know where this stems from; there was some movie that I can't think of, where terrorists hijacked a plane and identified all the of the passengers with "Jewish-sounding" names or those wearing Judaica and moved them to the front of the plane. I think all of them were killed or were going to be. As I said, I know it's irrational, but I worry about it nonetheless. I know the other reason that I've been fearful is because DH and I went to school with and DH went to the same synagogue as Nick Berg (http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Berg). We weren't friends with him, as he was a few grades above me and a grade above DH, but we knew each other and I acted in a play with him. I know that he wasn't killed just because he was Jewish but also to retaliate against American actions in Abu Ghraib. However, knowing someone who was part of this tragedy instilled me with anger and worry.

[ummserious]

What never fails to amaze me is when I hear stories of people saying phrases like "Jew it down" and they don't seem to even think about what it means or the fact that is in fact offensive. A friend of ours has a BIL who works for NECN, a large local cable news company in the NorthEast. This phrase was used in a conversation with him and the guy who said it didn't even think about what it meant, and then didn't understand what the big deal was. He felt it was akin to "the pot calling the kettle black" or "cut off your nose despite your face."

[villanelle75]

I had a coworker say to me on several occasions that the reason our director is so obsessive about unnecesary office supply orders is that he's a Jew, or that the reason we are all paid so little is because he's Jewish. I assumed she didn't know I was a Jew, although i remeberd talking about it at the holiday party in a conversation she ahd been a part of. I reported it and it went through HR channels, culminating in her issuing me an apology for offending me. We were sitting in the HR lady's office and I said, "You must not have been aware of this, but just to let you know, I am Jewish," and she said in a meek and very apologetic tone, "Yeah, I did know that." I guess it just didn't occur to her that it was offensive or maybe she though it was okay because I wasn't "one of those jews, or becuase I wasn't observant.

[wander_woman]

Woah, I can't believe I just now found this thread. Lots of interesting stuff here. I need to go back and read through all the posts. For now, here's my requisite introduction:

My family immigrated to the U.S. from the Former Soviet Union when I was 2. I grew up in Texas, because that's where the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society sent us (my parents never liked it, but it's hard to get up and move once you're settled). My dad was a true Soviet-style atheist, but connected strongly with the cultural side of Judaism because of anti-semitism he'd experienced growing up. My mom was the opposite. She never experienced much anti-semitism but felt a spiritual connection with Judaism. She wanted to move to Israel and felt strongly about raising her kids Jewish.

We belonged to a Reform temple. We didn't attend services that regularly, but I was extremely active in sunday school and youth group. I went to a Reform Jewish summer camp, which was probably the single greatest factor in my strong Jewish identity. I did all the NFTY stuff in high school, went to Israel on a NFTY trip, etc.

DH grew up with a Jewish mother and Christian father. He grew up more Christian than Jewish, but chose to be Jewish in high school. We had a Jewish wedding and will be raising our kids Jewish.

Lately, we've been talking about how dissatisfied we are with our Temple (we are members of a Reform synagogue). It's big and impersonal and just feels too institutional. We're looking for more of a spiritual and community experience, but really aren't sure where to find it. After some of the discussions on this thread, I wonder if we should try out a Reconstructionist congregation. The Reconstructionist movement here in Texas is, from what I can tell, still really small. When the first Reconstructionist synagogue opened in my city, I remember everyone thought it was some weird Jewish spin-off. We didn't know what to make of it. Now that I know more about, I'm interested in giving it a try. I think our views, both about Judaism and our more general social/political views, would jibe pretty well with what I've heard about Reconstructionism. But I really hesitate to leave the Reform community. Since I grew up so ingrained in the Reform philosophy and was so involved in the "movement," I feel almost like a traitor for thinking about leaving. Anyway, we're moving soon to a new city so I think we might try out several synagogues there before committing to any one.

I would love to hear more about people's experience with Reconstructionist congregations. How is Reconstructionism different from Reform Judaism? How have you found it to address your religious/spiritual needs better than other congregations?

Looking forward to coming back to this thread to catch up on all the interesting posts.

[kalogrias]

Handling this is my job. I can tell you stories I have heard about anti-Semitism (my own and those that I hear through work) that would make your skin crawl. This is what I do all. day. long. Talk to people who have been discriminated against, deal with victims of hate crimes, hold seminars on civil rights, plan conferences on counter-terrorism...

Let me know if you have any questions.

[southerner]

welcome wander_woman!!!

But I really hesitate to leave the Reform community. Since I grew up so ingrained in the Reform philosophy and was so involved in the "movement," I feel almost like a traitor for thinking about leaving. Anyway, we're moving soon to a new city so I think we might try out several synagogues there before committing to any one.

Just curious, is someone making you feel like a traitor or it's just a feeling you have within yourself? In the long run, I think it should be more important for you to be more comfortable (ie more personal and not that "institutional" feel you mentioned) at the synagogue. If you end up in another synagogue like the one you are in for the sake of staying sticking to the Reform philosophies, then you most likely won't enjoy it and will eventually see it as more of an "obligation" instead of something that you enjoy. KWIM?

I wish we had a Reconstructionist synagogue here, but we don't. Does the place you're moving have a lot of options for synagogues?

kalogrias, Your job sounds very emotionally taxing to me.

[suzubeane]

We're looking for more of a spiritual and community experience, but really aren't sure where to find it. After some of the discussions on this thread, I wonder if we should try out a Reconstructionist congregation. Welcome wander_woman.

If you've skimmed over the thread, then you know I'm a big cheerleader for the Reconstructionist movement. I think I may be the only one here who is currently a member of a Recon Shul, but prudies is shopping one, and pocket was raised in what (I think) was a Recon Havorah. (Right pocket?) If you haven't done so already, check out the Jewish Reconstructionist Federation's website (http://jrf.org/index.html), and the list of Reconstructionist Congregations and Havurot (http://www2.jrf.org/cong/directory-all.php).

The things I love about Reconstructionism are the emphasis on Kehillah (community) tikkun olam (repairing the world/social justice) and education. Actually, one of the benefits for me personally is that I've found these concepts really easy and natural to impart to my children. I was raised in the reform movement, and I found my own Jewish education to be much more formulaic than the one I'm able to give my kids in the context of a Recon community.

Even my 16 year old son - who is decidedly not engaged by synagogue life – has a very strong Jewish identity. I attribute this to the Reconstructionist emphasis on Jewish cultural legacy and history. My recollections of my reform upbringing is that the most value was placed on synagogue attendance and synagogue life. If I hadn't become part of the Recon movement, I doubt I would have considered taking my son to Shiva minyanim, or community events, or shared Shabbat dinners or just observing home rituals as valid ways to strengthen his Jewish consciousness. Everyone's kids will make their own choices as adults, and these are some of the ways to reinforce for him (and his nine-year old sister) that he is part of a community, and a People.

The JRF website also has lots of general info (http://www.jrf.org/recon/rjis.html) about Reconstructionism; I've always liked the overview on the website (http://www.kolhalev.net/recon.html) for Kol HaLev - a Cleavland Reconstructionist Havorah (A relative of mine is a member there.)

And this is what Rabbi Richard Hirsh calls the "Elevator Answer" to the question of "What is Reconstructionism." (i.e. you're stuck in an elevator with someone ...)


Reconstructionist Judaism, developed in the writings of Rabbi Mordecai Kaplan, began in the 1930s as the left wing of Conservative Judaism, and emerged as a separate fourth movement with the opening of the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College in 1968.



Reconstructionist Judaism differs from other approaches in seeing Jewish culture, religion and tradition as having been created by the Jewish people throughout history, rather than given by God at Mount Sinai; we see our tradition as having grown from the ground up, and not from the (mountain-) top down.



Reconstructionist communities are characterized by a high degree of participation in communal decision making, by a spirit of inclusivity and informality, and by a balance between respect for tradition and responsiveness to contemporary needs.

[IrisHope]

Why are we categorized here in "other misc. groups"?

[suzubeane]

Avalon - my rational and irrational fears are the same as yours. I remember feeling the way you describe about Nick Berg when the Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped, too. (Not that I knew him.) There's just a sickening feeling you get about it.

I do worry about my son, but he has grown up to be very aware, and really such a chameleon; he has friends of all different backgrounds. I tell myself that he is not likely to be victimized by kids at his school, because a.) he hangs out with more than just the Jewish kids, and b.) the violence is pretty well limited to gang members, and they are really only out to get each other. I know that sounds really caviler, but my son has me pretty well trained. I'd flip out every time he told me he'd witnessed a fight (at school or on the street) but he's very nonchalant about it, saying "Maaaaaaaaa - those guys aren't interested in me!" So truthfully, he's more likely to be hurt by some random act of violence than by a hate crime in his daily life. Isn't that a comforting thought?

My daughter is much more aware of being in the minority. She's in fourth grade, and she and her close friend (with whom she also attends Hebrew school) are two of three white girls in their classroom, and the only two Jews. They do get kids teasing them, saying things like "Why don't you talk your Jew Language" and the like. I think my daughter just perceives it as kids being mean, and if they weren't being mean about that, they'd find something else to be mean about. She is much more engaged by Judaism than her brother ever really was, so I would say that she likes being different, and she wouldn't change that about herself if she could. I can see myself worrying more about her as she enters the middle school years because she is much more likely to "stick to her own kind" than her brother (which I think can send the wrong message and invite trouble) and because she just has a much more fragile temperament than he does.

[suzubeane]

Why are we categorized here in "other misc. groups"?It's where southerner started the thread. Should we be somewhere else?

eta: The "non-miscellaneous" groups all seem to be about location.

[sue-bert]

I'm happy being miscellaneous.

s-b

[kalogrias]

southerner, my job can be tiring and taxing, but it's always interesting :) I just thought some people might have questions or concerns, and that I could be of some assistance.

[gayle]

I was going to ask this in my religion/demographics thread, but somehow it seemed more appropriate for this thread. I hope you gals don't mind me popping in to ask a question.

At any rate, I have always been curious as to why Jews are prohibited from eating shellfish? I understand about pork, but I have never understood why shellfish is prohibited

I really am curious! TIA :)

[ummserious]

Gayle,

The evaluation of the kosher laws can get complex because there were multiple reasons for some laws. I believe the quick answer for shellfish is that it was considered a health risk due to the fact that shelfish are "dirty crawling creatures" and scavengers and in turn should not be eaten.

[gayle]

OK, that makes total, and very logical sense.

Thanks ummserious. I guess I thought it might be more complex than that.

[southerner]

That is what I think also about shellfish. Gayle, just curious....what is your understanding as to why Jewish people aren't supposed to eat pork?

[ummserious]

Well like I said, there are more complex reasons why certain animals would not be considered fit for human consumption but that is the "easy" answer for shellfish.

For example, one might consider eating a scavenger to be damaging to your spirit. Other more complex aspects of the laws deal with differentiating yourself from non-Jews in a public way (whereas circumcision is private), the concept of self discipline, considerations of slaughter and what is morally ok, and many more.

[gayle]

As I understand it, it is because God forbade it in the Torah, and the support of that is in Deuteronomy, Chapter Fourteen, Verse Eight which says, "The pig, because it has a split hoof but doesn't chew the cud, is unclean to you: of their flesh you shall not eat, and their carcasses you shall not touch."

So basically, God said that they are unclean, and therfore not suitable for human consumption.
Am I correct in that understanding?

I probably should have amended my original question, re: shellfish, to say I understand the scriptural reason for not eating pork, but I don't undrestand the scriptural reason for not eating shellfish.

[sue-bert]

There is no explanation/justification given in the Torah about the laws of kashrut. In the context of rules of kashrut, G-d merely says that the Jews are meant to be a holy people and a nation apart.

Various people have tried to ascribe reasons (health reasons, etc.) to these laws, but the bottom line according to most halachic scholars is that these laws are considered "chukkim," i.e., mitzvot for which there is no logical justification given. But we follow them anyway because it says so in the Torah and we follow the mitzvot that Hashem gave us.

s-b

P.S. - Now I'm curious: Gayle, what do you think is the explanation for not eating pork?

ETA: Oh, we cross-posted. Okay, so a similar reason exists for not eating shellfish: It says so in the Torah. If it's from the sea, it's gotta have fins and scales (ref: Lev. 11:9; Deut. 14:9)

[suzubeane]

Thanks ummserious. I guess I thought it might be more complex than that.Yeah, well ... not so fast! :)

Gayle, the short answer to your question is "because the Torah says so" and it's just one of those things where there's not a specific explanation given there. So in that regard, the reasons for not eating pork would be the same as the reasons for not eating shellfish, or anything else that is considered traif (non-kosher.)

But as ummserious pointed out, there's a school of thought that the laws of Kashrut were developed as sort of a public health measure so that people would not eat foods that would have spread sickness in times before refrigeration or food preservation. However, most observant Jews feel that the dietary laws were designed to serve as a reminder to distinguish between what is sacred and what is not - which is a big theme throughout Judaism. Jews gave the world the Sabbath, a time to distinguish between the sacred and the everyday.

I don't keep Kosher, but I occasionally consider after having heard the laws of Kashrut characterized as the heightening the simple act of eating into ritual.

eta: oops - I should have checked to see if there were other replies while I was composing this.

Gayle I wondered, too what reason you'd heard for not eating pork.

[gayle]

"ETA: Oh, we cross-posted. Okay, so a similar reason exists for not eating shellfish: It says so in the Torah. If it's from the sea, it's gotta have fins and scales (ref: Lev. 11:9; Deut. 14:9)"

Ah, OK, I didn't realize that there was supportive scripture for that as well, but I figured there probably had to be, I just didn't know what it was. Thank you!

[gayle]

Suzu said
"I don't keep Kosher, but I occasionally consider after having heard the laws of Kashrut characterized as the heightening the simple act of eating into ritual."

I am probably more curious how people apply things like this into ritual, and spiritual practice as well.

Thanks for your input ladies, and thanks for letting me ask!

[RobynScott]

I'm Jewish, but I'm learning from the replies too. I didn't know that the laws of kashrut were in part intended to be a way to set us apart publicly (as opposed to circumcision) - but that is what I have used them for. I am not terribly religious, yet for me it has always been important to eat "kosher style" if not completely kosher. For example, I do not eat pork or shellfish, I don't mix milk and meat, we have 2 sets of dishes and silverware (more for Passover) - but I will eat non-kosher meat when I am out of the house and we bring take-out foods into the house (to eat on paper plates)

To me - it has been a cultural thing, as well as a way of setting myself apart as being Jewish (aside from the high holidays type celebrations) - for that reason, I have felt it important to bring my future children up that way as well - so that they know that we are Jewish in more than name only.

Incidentally, with reference to private indications, I went to the most beautiful bris yesterday - they did a wonderful job, but in a way it made me sad for all of the Jewish people that are moving away from these traditions (not the circumcision as much as the wonderful feeling of community at the bris - and this was of an interfaith couple no less)

Anyway - thanks for letting me share. Anyone else keep kosher? to what extent?

[pocket]

I was also raised keeping kosher-style. We had separate dishes for meat, milk and passover meat and milk. and we never are pork, shellfish or meat and milk mixed. But we didn't keep heksher-kosher or buy kosher meat. My parents still keep kosher, but my sister and I don't. We definitely have always seen it as a spiritual discipline, like a meditation on the holiness of food and feeding. Interestingly my dad's sister is a macrobiotic which is also a lifestyle of meditation on food and feeding. I haven't considered keeping kosher at my house now because Pita is very opposed to it. He didn't grow up kosher and doesn't find it to be a meaningful spiritual practice.

[ummserious]

"because the Torah says so"

I forgot, that is always the shortest answer!

I think I am also a bit torn. I know that the idea of being a nation apart, being holy in an unholy place and giving importance to ritual are a big part of the Jewish ideal. However, I have a little naysayer in me that believes much of organized religion in general (not just Judaism) was developed as a way to control the masses. In this case as a public health measure but there are other examples. Of course, certain pieces of kashrut don't fit into that such as separation of milk and meat.

[pocket]

However, I have a little naysayer in me that believes much of organized religion in general (not just Judaism) was developed as a way to control the masses.

Yes, of course it was! But also to give those masses a particular sort of experience - not just out of a desire for community control. If Judaism is a spiritual path, then mitzvot are the stones that make up the path in the same way that Buddhists meditate and try to free themselves from desire. Or that Christians pray and try to give themselves over to the will of god. We perform rituals and prayer because the observance itself is a sort of meditation. It isn't that these things bring you to god,but rather that they root you in your everyday life and in the minutia of the everyday, which is itself holy. We are set apart, by our own choice and not by our own choice. when you keep kosher, you never forget that because something as simple as eating and sharing a meal reminds you that you are a Jew. It's to bring a certain mindfulness to daily life, I think. They also say that while there is no reason given for kashrut, if you do it for 40 yrs you will understand it.

Who am I kidding? I am totally going back to keeping kosher someday! I'll miss crab though...

[Esq.]

I need to ask a question of an Orthodox Jew. Is anyone on this thread Orthodox? I know that Reconstructionist and Conservative have been mentioned, but I don't remember anyone saying that they were Orthodox.

[spps]

kyrsten - I am and Sue-bert is as well.

[Esq.]

Yay! would you mind answering a question for me?

My boss decided to have a very inappropriate conversation with me this afternoon, which is actually not all that strange. He is Orthodox, and he was telling me (don't ask me why...other than he is strange) about some "ritual bath" that Orthodox women participate in some number of days after the end of their period. And then they have to come home and have sex with their husbands. He was going on and on about 2 weeks of something which I did not understand exactly, but what sounded like a time of abstinence.

And then he went on and on about how Jweish men are directed to "pleasure their wives at her direction", etc.

As mortifying as the conversation was (he finds these topics to be every day topics for some reason) I was very perplexed. However, I was not comfortable really asking much, bc, really I was just grossed out! It was seriously not a good conversation to be having with your boss! :o

Do you know anything about what he was trying to tell me?

[suzubeane]

I am not orthodox, but I can tell you a bit about what your boss was talking about. sue-bert and spps, I'm sure, will have more to say on the subject.

Your boss was describing the laws of separation, which dictate that a man may not have sex with a menstruating woman. The ritual bath he spoke of is called a mikvah. It is not a bath you take to make yourself clean - you're actually supposed to be clean going in. It is purely a ritual purification. Women go to the mikvah 7 days after the end of menstruation.

I don't know that sex upon the wife's return home is a *requirement* but considering it's probably been about 12 days at that point, chances are they are looking forward to it!

My understanding of the laws of separation is that they are designed to make husband and wife form a closer, more spiritual bond in the days they are not sexually intimate. It's also quite a good way to make conception more likely, since by the time they're sexual again it would be just before ovulation, and after at least 12 days, the sperm count would be up.

Also, Jewish husbands are definitely required to see to their wives needs. :)

Hope this helps. And FWIW, I think it was totally inappropriate that your boss had this conversation with you, especially under the guise of educating you about Judaism.

[sue-bert]

I think suzu summarized things pretty nicely.

I cannot fathom why your boss started this conversation with you. How did this conversation start? Was this in the context of anything in particular? Was this appropos of ... anything??? If it was totally out of the blue, then I'm stumped.

I can certainly assure you that it isn't some sort of "Jewish thing" (meaning, some sort of Jewish imperitive or even cultural habit) to discuss this topic with random (especially non-Jewish) people.

It is true that when discussing halacha (Jewish Law), the discussions tend to be more clinical than spiritual; i.e., the arguments are conducted like legal arguments, citing precedents and previous halachic rulings. It doesn't matter if the topic is something that western society regards as "racy" (like sex) or mundane (like which fish are kosher and which are not). So perhaps he does not instinctively avoid this topic any more than any other topic related to Judaism.

But --- getting back to the secular workplace -- that's not an excuse for discussing a topic such as this someone who reports to you.

Is your boss generally lacking in social skills?

sue-bert

[ummserious]

Thanks Pocket, I have read something along those lines before but I really like the way you put it. We go back and forth all the time too...we both grew up more observant and kosher than we are now. The fact that we aren't doing it now is not a rebellious thing, just a different lifestyle for the present.

"They also say that while there is no reason given for kashrut, if you do it for 40 yrs you will understand it."

Running out of time!

[Esq.]

Yeah, he is lacking in social skills.

It came up as we were talking about Kosher gift baskets, and some of the different marks indicating that things are Kosher. He was telling me how some people don't accept the mark of some Rabbi bc he doesn't really oversee things. And then the IT guy, who was here fixing computers, mentioned that his family thought that it was odd that he and his gf kept a kosher house, yet lived together outside of marriage.

My boss said that he did not think that it was odd, bc you pick and choose sometimes...and somewhere in that is when the conversation took this turn. The IT guy was present, but he was directing the conversation at me for some reason (I assume bc I am not Jewish, and he thought that he was telling me something that he and the IT guy already knew. apparently the IT guy didn't know about this, though. At least that is what I gathered from the conversation).

Anyway, I was curious, but I was not entering into the conversation with him and encouraging it! ;) So, I came here. Thanks for clarifying things for me ladies!

[pocket]

Seriously Yuck-O! Why would he have such a weird conversation with you?

[Esq.]

He is just weird. He screams at me all the time, is extremely impatient, cannot be bothered to listen to a thing that comes out of my mouth, blames me for things that I did not do, and talks openly about sex. He is quite the package ;)

[sue-bert]

Sounds like a keeper.

[angelmia]

here is my story! http://talk.theknot.com/BOARDS/User/Profile.aspx?UserID=5404 :)

[spps]

Kyrsten - I cannot believe that he would bring that up with you at work! :eek: This guy really needs to learn how to behave in public.

Welcome angelmia!

[Esq.]

Yep, he is a total weirdo. I wish I had something similar in Catholicism to shoot back at him... actually, I don't. He would find it interesting and continue the conversation in explicit detail.

[suzubeane]

Kyrsten, if you hadn't mentioned that the IT guy was in the room, I would have said this conversation qualifies as harassment. (Ironic, considering it's law firm.) Is he really that clueless? Or does he say this stuff to see you get uncomfortable? To me, the latter is what makes this more a matter of harassment.