(Tried to post this in politics...unable to?)Anyone attend vigils for Cindy Sheehan?

[artist]

http://www.startribune.com/stonline/images/news58/2vigils0818.l.jpg

More than 1,000 war protesters showed up Wednesday evening at the Lake Street-Marshall Avenue Bridge on Wednesday. Peace vigils were held all over the Twin Cities and the country in support of Cindy Sheehan, the mother of a slain soldier who is holding a vigil near President Bush's ranch in Texas.

Anti-war protest draws more than 1,000
Joy Powell, Star Tribune
August 18, 2005 VIGILS0818

Tears streaming, Catherine Statz, a nurse from St. Paul, stood on the Lake Street-Marshall Avenue Bridge on Wednesday evening with more than 1,000 other war protesters.
Her sister, Patricia Statz, 41, was killed Sept. 11, 2001, while working at the Pentagon as a civilian employee with the U.S. Army.
Since then, her family has come to believe that her death and the deaths of thousands of others have been exploited.
"It's horrible that President Bush uses Sept. 11 as his reason to be in the war," Catherine Statz said as passing cars tooted support for the protesters.
Organizers said there were nearly 1,200 of them. They held candles and placards on the bridge to show their support for the mother of a slain soldier who is holding a vigil near President Bush's ranch in Texas.

The vigil was one of dozens in the metro area arranged by MoveOn.org, a website that organized similar protests across the nation.
From Stillwater to Eden Prairie to Minneapolis, thousands of people turned out to show they stand behind the cause of Cindy Sheehan, whose controversial stakeout at "Camp Casey" is drawing national attention.
For Statz, it's a personal cause as well.
"I think we're there because they've used Sept. 11 to move into Afghanistan and Iraq," she said. "It's not about the price of oil, it's about the control. It's about getting a foothold in the Mideast."
Unable to stop crying, Statz, 50, hid her face behind her sign, which said, "U.S. Troops Out Now."
"It's so sad," she said, "for our family to know that so many other families are going to be going through what we did -- losing a loved one."
At the bridge, a couple of war supporters showed up briefly, toting a sign that said, "Kill Iraq." Many of the protesters said that they support U.S. troops in Iraq but that they want to bring them home.
John and Char Sokatch of St. Paul, who were at the bridge vigil with their 9-year-old daughter Zya and two neighbor children, said they came because they couldn't afford to travel to Crawford, Texas, to rally with Sheehan.
Sydney Rose, 14, proudly toted a placard that read,"No more grieving mothers."
The St. Paul girl had come with her father, brother and a friend. While they were there, Sydney's uncle, Darrel Pinkston of Savage, called her father, Dana Rose. The men have opposite stances on the war, yet are best of friends.
"I support freeing the Iraqi people from the tyrant Saddam," Pinkston said after Dana Rose handed his cell phone to a reporter. "I think it was a good and moral thing to do."
Retired Minneapolis pediatrician Dr. Sigrid Bachmann and her daughter, nurse Tanya Bachmann, were at the bridge vigil as well. They and others called Sheehan courageous. It's a new anti-war movement fanned by the Internet, and one organized far more quickly than decades ago, when Bachmann first began protesting wars.
As a girl who lived in Berlin during World War II, she saw the hatred and prejudice foisted on the Jewish people, and then saw the smashed stores, the burned buildings and other horrors of war.
"War is extremely destructive of the souls of the people, or the buildings, or the land, of the Earth," she said. "One of the saddest things is the fate of the children in this time we're living."
Vietnam veteran Steve Weeks of Minneapolis rode his bike to the vigil.
"This isn't a war, this is a police action," said Weeks, who said he served in the Navy from 1964-67. "There's no country we're at war with. We don't even know who we're fighting."
Sue Ann Martinson of Minneapolis, shared that view. "There were no weapons of mass destruction, and the Iraqis didn't have anything to do with 9-11," she said.
"This war has been disgraceful, with trumped up reasons."
Joy Powell is at jpowell@startribune.com.

[flygirl]

I'll go ahead & move it for you. :) Still trying to figure out what's wrong.

[artist]

Thanks flygirl!

[carolc]

I didn't go (someone had to stay home with the sleeping baby, or I would have) but my husband went to ours here. He said they got a lot of supportive comments. He met a woman there whose son had been killed in Iraq...she was going through the crowd thanking people.

It kills me to think of everyone who is losing loved ones for this.

[artist]

Oh I know! It did look like there were people at the vigils here who had loved ones in Iraq or lost loved ones in Iraq.

As for your baby, I did notice a real cute baby with a tye shirt, some other kids in strollers, lots of dogs, old people, a variety!

[artist]

Just wanted to add (as I unfortunately work with Republicans who listen to Rush), he is such an ass.

And so is Ann Coulter.

ETA:
I say this as they are such assholes in what they are saying about this whole thing, about Cindy Sheehan, her supporters, etc.

[artist]

This was an e-mail I just got from someone who also attended the same vigil I did. (He is part of the same "MoveOn Team" that I am part of.)


Hi ... Wendy and our two kids were on the south side of the St. Paul end of the bridge. They had paper cups to protect the candles. I dropped them off and picked them up ... and contributed to the horn honking.

Congratulations on a successful event. The impressive thing about it was the level of approval from motorists passing over the bridge. Wendy said people driving business vehicles were honking ... that two Metro Transit bus drivers honked. The Star Tribune reporter had to get someone to call a relative not at the vigil to talk with someone who supports Bush's Farce.

What I am seeing is that historic shift that finally occurred during the Vietnam protest days when the weight of general public opinion began shifting against the war effort. That brought "Vietnamizaton" (sound familiar?), the Paris Peace Accords, American disengagement, a President deciding to not run for reelection ("I shall not seek, nor will I accept, my Party's nomination for President of the United States"). It all started unraveling for those supporting the war because public opinion stopped supporting them. Cindy Sheehan (I like the similarity to my own last name) strikes real fear into the souls of the Bush Administration. She reminds the American public that for every flag-covered box off-loaded in Dover, Delaware, there is a grieving mother. For every grieving mother there is a grieving family. For every grieving family there is a grieving community.

Cindy Sheehan together with this action last night is saying to the American people ... no ... it's not business as usual, folks. You cannot look away. There are too many grieving mothers for that.

Yes, I believe the tide is turning. That ****-sure confident smile on Dubya's lips will either fade or he will be seen for the half-wit that he clearly is. Dubya's Neo Con purist buddies will sink into the mire of their own doublespeak. They will leave behind a mess and leave it for someone else to clean up.

[wendalah]

Hi ... Wendy and our two kids were on the south side of the St. Paul end of the bridge.

Just to clarify--this was NOT me. :D

[ginadc]

Lovely photo! We had about 250-300 people at the corner of Church and Bloomfield in Montclair, NJ last night, and I know there were multiple other vigils in the immediate area.

It feels like something's changing. It really does. I just have gotten my hopes up so often before (cf. November 3, 2004) that I'm scared to be too optimistic that things may finally change.

[Belm]

I wasn't able to go and I wish I had your optimism, Gina.

[artist]

One has to have a little optimism though!

My mom seems to agree that there seems to be a shift in the country. (She lived through the Viet Nam era.)

I did notice for example, ALL the local news stations had significant coverage on the 10:00 news. One station is interviewing Cindy Sheehan and others for tonight’s 10:00 news.

Obviously the papers are covering this too.

And clearly it’s all pissing off people like Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, etc. They are so angry with the liberals, it seems they are terrified of the movement that’s happening.

ANYWAY, compare all this coverage to the marches that happened BEFORE the war started. In Minneapolis (on a VERY cold day) there were about 20,000 people. And there were marches all over the world that day. There was literally NOTHING covering this, no coverage at all. Well, maybe C-Span, but that was about it.

So, the fact that these vigils from last night are getting some media attention is encouraging.

[artist]

Just to clarify--this was NOT me. :D

LOL!

You live in CA though. I doubt you'd be at the St. Paul vigil!!!

[artist]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40701000/jpg/_40701482_sheehan_story_ap.jpg
Sheehan wants to stay till the president meets her

Vigils to support Sheehan protest

More than 1,000 anti-war vigils have been held around the United States in support of a bereaved mother protesting outside President Bush's Texas ranch.

Protesters held candles, sang hymns and chanted in gatherings across the country in support of Cindy Sheehan.
Ms Sheehan, 48, has become a focus for anti-war sentiment since her protest began in Crawford 10 days ago.
She has vowed to stay put during the president's month-long holiday at his ranch until he agrees to meet her.

Each one was a valuable human life, each one was an indispensable member of his or her family

Cindy Sheehan
Ms Sheehan, whose eldest son, Casey, was killed in action in 2004, wants Mr Bush to withdraw US troops from Iraq.
The president has so far refused to agree to her request to meet him, although he says he has given her plea for troop withdrawal serious consideration.
White House officials say Ms Sheehan has met the president on a previous occasion, and made her views known then.
She has vowed to stay put during the president's month-long holiday at his ranch until he agrees to meet her.
'Meet with Cindy'
Around 1,600 vigils had been planned by liberal advocacy groups MoveOn.org Political Action, TrueMajority and Democracy for America.
In Crawford, several hundred people lit candles and gathered around a wooden flag-draped coffin at the camp, situated about a mile from Mr Bush's ranch, to remember the dead.
"Each one was a valuable human life," Ms Sheehan said, quoted by Reuters news agency. "Each one was an indispensable member of his or her family."
But before the vigil war supporter Gary Qualls drove to the site to remove a cross with the name of his son who died in the war, saying what was happening was "disrespectful".
Several hundred people attended a vigil near the White House in Washington, chanting "meet with Cindy, tell her the truth" and "end the war now".
In Charleston, West Virginia, protesters unrolled a giant banner bearing the names of all Americans killed in Iraq and Afghanistan.
At least one counter-demonstration was organised by pro-war group FreeRepublic.com, prompting a heated exchange with protesters in a Washington park.
From BBC News
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4160032.stm

[artist]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/08/07/mom.protest/

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2005/POLITICS/08/07/mom.protest/vert.sheehan.sun.ap.jpg
Cindy Sheehan tries to keep cool Sunday while protesting near President Bush's ranch in Crawford.

Soldier's mom digs in near Bush ranch
Senator sees 'echoes of Vietnam' in vigil to meet president
Sunday, August 7, 2005; Posted: 5:31 p.m. EDT (21:31 GMT)

CRAWFORD, Texas (CNN) -- A mother whose son was killed in Iraq says she is prepared to continue her protest outside President Bush's ranch through August until she is granted an opportunity to speak with him.
Later, in a TV interview, a Democratic senator from California said the episode evokes images that were commonplace during the Vietnam War.
Cindy Sheehan's 24-year-old son -- Army Spc. Casey Sheehan of Vacaville, California -- was killed in Baghdad's Sadr City on April 4, 2004. The Humvee mechanic was one of eight U.S. soldiers killed there that day by rocket-propelled grenades and small arms fire. (Full story)
They are among the 1,829 American troops, including 31 this month, who have died in Iraq since the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003.
The president -- who is spending a nearly five-week-long working vacation at his Texas ranch -- said in a speech Wednesday that the sacrifices of U.S. troops were "made in a noble cause." (Full story)
Sheehan said she found little comfort in his comments.
"I want to ask the president, why did he kill my son?" Sheehan told reporters. "He said my son died in a noble cause, and I want to ask him what that noble cause is."
Sheehan said hers was one of a group of about 15 families who each met separately with the president one day last June.
"He wouldn't look at the pictures of Casey. He didn't even know Casey's name," she told CNN Sunday. "Every time we tried to talk about Casey and how much we missed him, he would change the subject."
Sheehan said she was so distraught at the time that she failed to ask the questions she now wants answered.
"I want him to honor my son by bringing the troops home immediately," Sheehan told reporters Saturday. "I don't want him to use my son's name or my name to justify any more killing."
Sheehan, who co-founded the anti-war group Gold Star Families for Peace, led about 50 demonstrators near the Bush ranch Saturday. Some protesters were with the group Veterans for Peace, which was holding a convention in Dallas.
The protesters stopped their bus miles from the ranch in Crawford, and walked less than a half-mile before being stopped by local law enforcement officials.
A message on the Gold Star Families Web site says, "We want our loved ones' sacrifices to be honored by bringing our nation's sons and daughters home from the travesty that is Iraq IMMEDIATELY, since this war is based on horrendous lies and deceptions.
"Just because our children are dead, why would we want any more families to suffer the same pain and devastation?"
The message also urges Bush to send his twin daughters, Jenna and Barbara, to Iraq "if the cause is so noble."
The site says the group is made up of families of soldiers who have died as a result of war, primarily in Iraq.
Joe Hagin, White House deputy chief of staff, and Stephen Hadley, national security adviser, met with Sheehan for about 45 minutes Saturday, according to White House spokesman Trent Duffy.
Sheehan said that the two men "were very respectful."
"They told me the party line of why we are in Iraq," she said. "I told them that I don't believe that they believed that."
Duffy said Saturday that "many of the hundreds of families the president has met with know their loved one died for a noble cause and that the best way to honor their sacrifice is to complete the mission."
Bush has refused to provide a time frame for U.S. troop withdrawal from Iraq, saying American forces will return home when Iraqis can take care of their own security.
"President Bush wants the troops home as soon as possible, but the U.S. will not cut and run from terrorists," Duffy said.
Sheehan elicited sympathy from both sides of the political spectrum on Sunday.
"What you're seeing with that mom trying to meet with President Bush is echoes of Vietnam," said Sen. Barbara Boxer, a California Democrat. "Because no one is seeing the light at the end of the tunnel."
"I think the president ought to meet with this mother," said Sen. George Allen, a Virginia Republican. "What I would say to her is her son will always be remembered as a great hero and a patriot, advanced freedom in Iraq and the Middle East, has made this country more secure."
Boxer said her own message would be different: "I would tell her to do everything she could to spare other families this grief, to get us off this cycle of violence."
Recent surveys have shown decreasing public support for the war.
In a Newsweek poll released Sunday, 64 percent of those asked said they do not believe the war in Iraq has made Americans safer, and 61 percent said they disapprove of the way the president is handling the war.
The telephone poll of 1,004 adults was taken from Tuesday to Thursday last week and has a margin of error of 4 percentage points.
CNN's Elaine Quijano contributed to this story.

[kiddo]

I wasn't able to attend. I am so inspired by this woman. If something were to happen to one of us, I could picture my mom doing the same thing.

I was watching the news and they interviewed a women in Crawford and she essentially said "I believe in the right to protest, but I do not think this is the time or place to do it. We need to show our troops support"

If now is not the time and the place is not outside the president's home, then when and where IS there a good time to protest?

[artist]

I wasn't able to attend. I am so inspired by this woman. If something were to happen to one of us, I could picture my mom doing the same thing.

I was watching the news and they interviewed a women in Crawford and she essentially said "I believe in the right to protest, but I do not think this is the time or place to do it. We need to show our troops support"

If now is not the time and the place is not outside the president's home, then when and where IS there a good time to protest?

Good point!

Also, this woman's son died! Of course she supports the troops! Many of us DO support the troops! Many family members of the troops were at these vigils. The point is, bring them home, answer some questions, talk to this woman!

[Belm]

I hate to say this, but I'm not sure if bringing them home NOW is the answer.

While I do not want to see any more of our brave men and women die in Iraq, I'm not sure that bringing them home would solve anything.

We have made a huge mess in Iraq. With the growing insurgency, leaving Iraq (I believe) would cause even more problems. I hesitate to say this, but I actually think that we need to funnel more troops (along with better armor) into Iraq to better fight the on-going insurgency. We also need to have a better exit strategy.

If we picked up and left the country now, I can't imagine what would happen to the people of Iraq. Although, one could say that we have done enough to the people of Iraq with their own causality count.

It’s not a good situation to be in at all. I just wish that we could turn back the hands of time and not gone over there in the first place. In the meantime, I keep praying for peace.

[Juniper]

My mom went to one last night and was so surprised by all the positive comments they got from people driving by. She said it was so much different than some of the other ones she has been to.

I live in Texas, so there was not one here, of course. ;)

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

Belm, I agree with everything you just said.

[artist]

Other e-mails I've gotten:


from my mom…
Hi all,
For those of you in or out of the Twin Cities, you may be able to get to a wonderful photo, via the internet, which appears in this morning's Metro State section of the (Mpls.) Star Tribune. It's of one of the dozens of peace vigils last night in the Twin Cities area in support of the mom of the soldier killed in Iraq who has been asking for a conversation with the president.
We met Kris at the bridge and there were about 1200 people there. There were folks of all ages (a lot of gray and white heads), and (we loved this) a lot of dogs. This was just one of thousands of similar vigils all across the United States last evening. There was a vigil in Paris. There is a renewed groundswell of support for the end-this-immoral-war effort.
For those of you out of the Twin Cities area, our state Senator Becky Loury, who lost her own son recently in Iraq, is leaving today for Crawford, Texas, to lend her support.
Mostly, for me, it was good to be with so many like minded people. Kris pointed out to me that when we marched, many hundreds of thousands of us all over this country, Europe, and Asia, to protest a preemptive strike, we were frustrated with relatively scant coverage by the media. This, now, is finally getting some attention. So, the three of us left this event with some hope.
Take good care, all of you,

from my cousin in Oregon whose boyfriend has served in both Iraq and Afghanistan…(in response to my mom’s letter)
Good morning fellow peaceniks...

I rarely respond to an entire list however I wanted to share our experience last night. My close friend Duncan and I attended one of the 21 vigils held here in Portland, OR last night. Duncan has now served two tours in Afghanistan and Iraq since 2002, and met Cindy Sheehan during a class they were both taking at Cal Berkely shortly after her son was killed . Duncan was warmed and hopeful when he saw the blocks upon blocks of support and candles. He does not support this administration but accepts and honors the job he signed up for in the Army Reserves.

Let there be peace in the world, peace at home, and peace in our hearts.

from another member of my MoveOn Team who I saw at the vigil…(who includes what her friend in MI wrote about their vigil)
Kristin,
It was great seeing you and your folks last night!!!
Did you see the Star
Trib reported there were 1,000 people on the bridge?
Didn't seem like that
many to me, but this reportage pleases me a lot. and
things are getting hot
in Crawford!

a Friend in Michigan sent me the following about his
vigil. apparently it
was at someone's house, about 20 people in Kalamazoo,
and very different
from ours, both styles very useful:

"Most of the folks were young (from the Western
Michigan Univ campus)
However, there were a few old fart cohorts (4) who are
very upset with the
nation's current events. This was more a list of
what's been happening in
the nation and why it's NOT being reported. The Cindy
Sheehan story is just
the tip o the iceberg and there's frustration about
the assumptions that
folks aren't interested in her's and similar stories.
Mostly a list of big
media complaints from older folks and Iraqi war
complaints from the
young'uns. Understandable."

Kristin, as much as I have too much to do already, I
do feel energized for
something more. shall we do a discussion, letter
writing party? try to
recruit a turnout from our friends, etc. My friend's
letter helps me
understand we are not getting the news, we need to
disseminate it, need to
push for the news to be given to us. what do your Mom
and Dad think?

let's plan something.

[artist]

I hate to say this, but I'm not sure if bringing them home NOW is the answer...We also need to have a better exit strategy...


You do make some good points.

I do wish the president and congress WOULD come up with SOME SORT of an exit plan.

[ginadc]

This is so sad. I just read on DailyKos, sourced to CNN, that Cindy's mom has apparently had a small stroke and she is leaving Camp Casey to be with her. I feel so bad for both of them and for their whole family. And I also hate that some of the disgusting smug rightwingers are going to be crowing about this (and probably declaring that it's either Cindy's fault or god's judgment).

May the movement go on.

[jbenny75]

I was sooo thrilled to see this movement. I hope it is carried on in Cindy's absence. I wasn't aware of the vigils last night, or I would have tried to get to one. I think it's amazing. I've always said that GWB can't tolerate anyone disagreeing with him.

[artist]

This is so sad. I just read on DailyKos, sourced to CNN, that Cindy's mom has apparently had a small stroke and she is leaving Camp Casey to be with her. I feel so bad for both of them and for their whole family. And I also hate that some of the disgusting smug rightwingers are going to be crowing about this (and probably declaring that it's either Cindy's fault or god's judgment).

May the movement go on.

Yes, I heard that on the radio yesterday. I feel so bad for her! I do think the movement will continue regardless. Remember, Cindy is the catalyst.

[artist]

I was sooo thrilled to see this movement. I hope it is carried on in Cindy's absence. I wasn't aware of the vigils last night, or I would have tried to get to one. I think it's amazing. I've always said that GWB can't tolerate anyone disagreeing with him.

There is still more you can do.

For one thing, check out the website:

http://www.meetwithcindy.org/

Also to get involved locally with various things, sign up to join a MoveOn Team near you. Or start a new team. (I am a "team leader" in my area.)

http://www.moveonpac.org/team/

[lawyerlee]

An exit strategy period would be a welcome change. How can we expect to know when our troops will come home when we don't even know how to define the objectives of their mission or how to determine when we may have achieved a victory? :(


I thought this story might be of interest.

Bush Begins 5-Day Push to Defend Iraq War (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050820/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush&printer=1;_ylt=Ai7C9.8P2RiDslPvsrfcvhwGw_IE;_ylu=X 3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE-)
By NEDRA PICKLER, Associated Press Writer

With anti-war protesters continuing their vigil outside President Bush's ranch, the commander in chief began a five-day push Saturday to tell Americans why he thinks U.S. troops must continue the fight in Iraq.

In his weekly radio address, Bush argued that the war in Iraq will keep Americans safe for generations to come. He'll try to drive the point home with speeches in upcoming days in Utah and Idaho.

"Our troops know that they're fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan, and elsewhere to protect their fellow Americans from a savage enemy," the president said in the recorded broadcast.

"They know that if we do not confront these evil men abroad, we will have to face them one day in our own cities and streets, and they know that the safety and security of every American is at stake in this war, and they know we will prevail."

Bush is making a sell to a skeptical public. According to recent polls, a majority of Americans do not approve of his handling of the war.

"We need a strategy to win in Iraq or an exit strategy to leave," former Sen. Max Cleland of Georgia said in the Democratic radio address. "The present course will lead us to disaster. More of the same just means more precious blood spilled in the desert."

Cleland, who noted that he lost three limbs serving in Vietnam, ticked off numbers indicating this war's toll — nearly 2,000 service members killed, more than 15,000 wounded and some soldiers returning for their third tour in Iraq. "Iraq is still not secure and we don't have the forces there to make it secure," he said.

Dozens of the disillusioned remain outside his ranch as their inspiration, grieved mother Cindy Sheehan, left to tend to her hospitalized mother in her home state of California. Sheehan started the protests by traveling to Crawford to ask Bush why her soldier son, Casey, had to die in what she calls a senseless war.

[artist]

Thanks Diana for posting that.

[bea_mama]

"Go Home and Take Care of Your Kids"
by CindySheehan
Mon Aug 22nd, 2005 at 09:28:51 PDT

Day 16
The Peaceful Occupation of Crawford

I have received dozens of emails with this heading: Go
Home and Take Care of Your Kids. I think of all the
name calling and unnecessary and untrue trashing of my
character, this one offends me the most. What do the
people who send me this message mean?

First of all, it offends me because it is so blatantly
sexist. Would anyone think of emailing George Bush
when he is out and about (now he is going on a
vacation away from his vacation to make speeches in
Idaho and Utah defending his killing policies),
telling him to go and take care of his kids? Does
anyone write to ANY man and tell him to go home and
take care of his kids. I have news for all of these
people, my children are adults and their dad is home
to take care of them if they need any taking care of.

The second reason this command from the self-righteous
right offends me is that I believe that what I am
doing is for my children, and the world's children. I
think that the strategy of eternal baseless war for
corporate profit and greed is bad for all of our
children: born and unborn. We heard a few weeks ago
that Rummy said that we would be in Iraq for at least
a dozen more years, and we recently heard over the
weekend that the military is planning for four more
years of this occupation, at least. If Rummy is
correct, then Soccer Safety Mom Susie's kindergartener
will be fighting and dying in the harsh sands of the
Middle East and if the military is correct than NASCAR
Dad Nick's middle-schooler should start boot camp now.
Constant war is not a family value and George Bush's
policies of wars of aggression to control natural
resources do not make our country more secure...on the
contrary. How are SSM Susie and ND Nick going to be
able to afford to fill-up their SUV's soon? But I
digress.

We as mothers need to stop buying into the load of
misogynistic crap that our children need our constant
presence in their lives so they can thrive and grow.
What we need as families is strong support systems
that allow each family member to grow and achieve
his/her full potential as human beings. What we as
Moms need to stop doing is giving our children to the
military industrial war complex to be used as human
cluster bombs: to kill innocent civilians and perhaps
to die enriching and feeding the gluttonous war
machine.

It is up to us Moms to make sure our children are
whole and safe. We can start doing this by always
opposing the wars that bury our kids. So what I am
saying to the people who want me to go home and take
care of my kids: I AM taking care of my kids, and
yours too.

[wendalah]

We as mothers need to stop buying into the load of
misogynistic crap that our children need our constant
presence in their lives so they can thrive and grow.

I'm sorry, I don't really have much of an opinion on this woman's crusade, but that particular essay is so poorly written I had to say something. Didn't her son volunteer twice go to Iraq? Is he not an adult who can make his own decisions? She's saying here that mothers need to quit buying into "misogynistic crap" about needing to constantly be in their kids' lives. How about staying out of your kid's life?

And,

What we as
Moms need to stop doing is giving our children to the
military industrial war complex to be used as human
cluster bombs

Was her son an adult or not? Last time I checked you needed to be of a certain age to enlist. Nobody can "give" him to anything.

I understand her point and yes, the war has dragged on long enough--but to be frank, with essays like that I can understand why some people are making fun of her.

[kiddo]

It is up to us Moms to make sure our children are
whole and safe. We can start doing this by always
opposing the wars that bury our kids. So what I am
saying to the people who want me to go home and take
care of my kids: I AM taking care of my kids, and
yours too.

AMEN!

How about staying out of your kid's life?

Actually, her kid is out of her life.

[wendalah]

Actually, her kid is out of her life.

By his own decision and risk-taking, which he as an *adult* had the freedom to pursue.

Again, I agree with the cause--stop the war already--but I just don't think she's an articulate messenger. Sorry.

[kiddo]

She's a mom who lost a child who is speaking from the heart. I don't think you could get a more powerful messenger.

[thedoorchick]

Further to wendalah's point, this makes no sense:

Would anyone think of emailing George Bush
when he is out and about (now he is going on a
vacation away from his vacation to make speeches in
Idaho and Utah defending his killing policies),
telling him to go and take care of his kids?

Last I checked, George Bush's kids were college graduates in their early twenties. I doubt anyone would tell the President or his wife to "go take care of the kids."

[wendalah]

I'm not moved by the "I lost my family member in the war" messengers anymore. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, and I'm sure everyone here is going to call me a monster for saying that. I do sympathize with the pain of losing a loved one, I just am tired of it as a platform. The military is still voluntary. Yes, people go into our military not realizing what they are doing; yes, this war may not be a great idea; yes, too many people have died. BUT--again--We still allow adults to make their own decisions.

This has nothing to do with supporting or not supporting the war. This has to do with, do we allow men and women to enlist of their own volition, and own the responsibility that goes along with it? Because that's the only way the military is going to continue to work. We can work for peace but we're not likely to see it come completely in our lifetimes or our kids' lifetimes.

If Cindy wants to protest the war--I'm down with that. There are many ways to do it. I'm not on her train for this particular one.

[kiddo]

I think this mother's biggest issue is that she feels we have not been told the truth. That her son volunteered under false pretenses.

I think the point of her essay is that she has been told to "go home and take care of her children". Her children are grown, just like Bush's. Nobody tells him to go home and take care of his children, so why are they telling her to?

I think her essay makes perfect sense.

[wendalah]

I think the point of her essay is that she has been told to "go home and take care of her children". Her children are grown, just like Bush's. Nobody tells him to go home and take care of his children, so why are they telling her to?

Agreed on that. She's right that they are being sexist.

But then on the other hand, she's using her adult son, who could and did make his own decisions, as an example of someone who can be "given" to the military like a helpless child. I don't think her point is well made. And we don't know if her son believed he was fighting under false pretenses. I doubt he did, seeing as he volunteered twice for Iraq. Some people do not think the war is being fought under false pretenses. Her son may have been one of those. So she's treating him like a child who couldn't make his own decisions. That is why I think her essay is jumbled.

[wendalah]

You wouldn't catch me enlisting if God asked me to--but if I did, and I volunteered for a particular dangerous duty more than once, and I died, and my parents went around saying I didn't know what I was doing and I was duped...well, I'd be dead, but that would annoy me.

ETA Perhaps this is my "youngest child syndrome" talking. As in, "Mom and Dad never take me seriously!" ;)

[kiddo]

I guess I'm just looking at it from a mom who knows her son and would know his wishes. I think the longer this war goes on, the more apparent it is becoming to people that we were mislead. I assume that she believes if her son were still around today, he would support her and he would now believe he was duped.

[wendalah]

Possibly.

I think if he were still around, he'd still be in the military.

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

I think if he were still around, he'd still be in the military.
Sure, but he wouldn't have a choice as to whether he could re-enlist or not. That's the big problem. Kids who were told that they could do their couple years and get college paid for, are now in indefinitely.
And I don't want to hear any BS about how they knew what they were getting into. We all know (or should know, if we've been paying any attention to the news) that recruiting has not been robust and there've been a number of recruiters using unethical tactics.
And that disturbs me... Just the other day I talked to a nineteen-year-old who signed up with the National Guard, and he swore up and down that he wouldn't be sent overseas because he was going for computer training. That the recruiter told him that. :rolleyes: :( Ugh.

[kiddo]

ETA Perhaps this is my "youngest child syndrome" talking. As in, "Mom and Dad never take me seriously!"

haha, youngest here too and understand that sentiment.

I've known a few people in the military who at the onset of this war were in full support of it. Now, they don't feel the same way and did not re-enlist. One was actually a recruiter for the marines and he retired because he couldn't live with himself if he continued to recruit kids who might end up in Iraq.

I wouldn't be surprised that as this war drags on if you see a lot more members of the military dropping out while they have the chance, that is, if they even get the chance.

I just can't even begin to imagine the heartache of this women who feels she lost her son in vain. It is so sad.

[wendalah]

Agree with your points and I'd be down with her cause more if her son didn't volunteer more than once, knowing the second time he'd be sent to Iraq. That indicates to me that he knew what he was doing.

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

I read that he re-enlisted in August 2003. That's only three months after Bush declared an end to "major combat operations," and five months before the independent commission was even started to look into "intelligence failures." It was also seven months before the whole thing at Fallujah.

It doesn't sound to me like he would've had all the pertinent information at the time he enlisted.

[artist]

Wendy,

Did you notice my earlier post where I attached my cousin's e-mail? Her boyfriend (who has been to Iraq twice and Afghanistan once) was at one of the vigils in Oregon.

[lawyerlee]

And is it the kids of wealthy Americans who are fighting this war? Not usually because those kids have tons of options. And they would never have to join the military to pay for college.

[wendalah]

Did he not volunteer also for the dangerous mission that killed him?
From what I have read of him he doesn't strike me as being foolish. He seemed reasonably intelligent, responsible, idealistic.
Artist: I didn't see your post, I'll go look. I am sure there are soldiers on either side of this debate just as there are civilians.

[artist]

Artist: I didn't see your post, I'll go look. I am sure there are soldiers on either side of this debate just as there are civilians.

There are. Luckily we do have freedom of speech and the right to protest!

[artist]

Wendy-

Here is the part I was talking about (on page 2 of this thread):




from my cousin in Oregon whose boyfriend has served in both Iraq and Afghanistan…(in response to my mom’s letter)
Good morning fellow peaceniks...

I rarely respond to an entire list however I wanted to share our experience last night. My close friend Duncan and I attended one of the 21 vigils held here in Portland, OR last night. Duncan has now served two tours in Afghanistan and Iraq since 2002, and met Cindy Sheehan during a class they were both taking at Cal Berkely shortly after her son was killed . Duncan was warmed and hopeful when he saw the blocks upon blocks of support and candles. He does not support this administration but accepts and honors the job he signed up for in the Army Reserves.

Let there be peace in the world, peace at home, and peace in our hearts.



ETA:
Woops. I was wrong. Looks like he was in Iraq ONCE (not twice), and Afghanistan TWICE (not once).

[wendalah]

Basically, my thing is: This kind of protest just doesn't work for me. I say, if you're going to use loved ones as a platform--then try one where you stop them before they do it, don't wait until they've made their (adult) decision. Wives, get together and do a lysistrata or something. Mothers, have a cow and guilt them into not enlisting. I don't know if this is workable but I'd be behind that a lot more.

[lawyerlee]

Basically, my thing is: This kind of protest just doesn't work for me. I say, if you're going to use loved ones as a platform--then try one where you stop them before they do it, don't wait until they've made their (adult) decision. Wives, get together and do a lysistrata or something. Mothers, have a cow and guilt them into not enlisting. I don't know if this is workable but I'd be behind that a lot more.
It may not work for you, but it works for a lot of other people. I'm so thankful people are finally recognizing what a bleeping mess this is and wondering what we can do to demand something better. The more of that, the better.

[wendalah]

America, we can never agree on anything!

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

Lucky for us, we have the right not to have to agree. ;)

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

Did he not volunteer also for the dangerous mission that killed him?
From what I have read of him he doesn't strike me as being foolish. He seemed reasonably intelligent, responsible, idealistic.
I don't really see that as being proof that he would "approve" of the war though. Him doing his duty (going above the call of duty even) once he's there doesn't mean that he would have supported the premise for the war. If a person tries to salvage a situation, it doesn't mean that they necessarily would approve of the actions that took place to get them into that situation.

[Mrs. M.]

I agree with wendalah .

People sign up voluntarily to be soldiers. As far as I remember, soldier would be defined as someone who goes to fight wars for a country. That includes killing and possibly being killed.

Terrible for their family members, but if an adult signs up for something voluntarily, that is their choice.

[lawyerlee]

I agree with wendalah .

People sign up voluntarily to be soldiers. As far as I remember, soldier would be defined as someone who goes to fight wars for a country. That includes killing and possibly being killed.

Terrible for their family members, but if an adult signs up for something voluntarily, that is their choice.
How does that equate to a mother like Cindy Sheehan being unable to rightfully protest a war she believes is wrong? She is grieving, and this is how she is choosing to honor her son's memory. Who are any of us to judge her for that?

It really pisses me off when people say, "oh, well, it was a choice," like boo hoo for them. Come on! If these people didn't make this choice, we would be in a world of hurt as a nation, right? Then why is it than mostly people of certain socioeconomic backgrounds make that choice if it is such a fair and righetous choice?

My father in law grew up in the projects in Philly. I'm talking the for real, honest to god dangerous projects. When he finished high school, he joined the Marines and was sent off to Vietnam. You want to talk about choice and opportunities? Let's talk about it in that context. What opportunities do you think there are for a kid in the projects whose mother is dead and whose father can't read? So don't insult these people by declaring that they have a meaningful choice when most of us have never walked in their shoes and can't for a second begin to fathom what options they see for themselves. When there are no meaningful alternatives in your life, picking out the one thing that might help you get ahead in life and believing the piece of shit lying recruitor is not making a meaningful choice.

My cousin is in Iraq right now. He joined the Army after high school because he didn't have any other options. His dad has a very serious untreated mental illness, and his mother hasn't had anything to do with him since he was a baby. They are on welfare. He's never had anything and had no prospect of having anything. He has kids of his own already. He never had anyone in his life to try to help guide him in a more positive direction. But joining the Army was actually a good thing for him - until the leaders of our country LIED and drummed up a case for war that sent him to the Gulf to fight for nothing.

How much do you think it sickens someone like my wonderful father in law, who saw things so horrible I don't even know what they are because he is literally incapable of talking about them in Vietnam, to know that kids are dying for *nothing* all over again? Well, I'll tell you that it sickens him a lot. He is so messed up from fighting in the jungle over there that it isn't even funny. He tries very hard to be normal, but he's a very closed off person because that is the only way he can cope with what he experienced. We're just lucky he didn't come home with a necklace made out of ears or something, because lots of guys in his situation did. Is that what it will be like for the young men and women who survive this when it is all over, who knows how far from now? How can it be wrong to try to get them home?

Maybe that can help you understand why some of us are a bit angry.

[thedoorchick]

until the leaders of our country LIED and drummed up a case for war that sent him to the Gulf to fight for nothing.

Diana, I can appreciate that you are very sensitive to this issue and are close to people who know the realities of these issues much more acutely than any of us ever can. I appreciate that you are angry

But do you really want to get into all that now (i.e. the quoted remarks)? Because you and I both know, there are many people who do not believe the government lied and many people who think the war is about a whole lot more than nothing. And no, I'm not talking about oil or revenge, for goodness' sake.

And I don't think one can reasonably compare the Sheehan family to what you're describing. Do they live in the projects? Are they mentally ill, on welfare, or otherwise disadvantaged? I think that family's children had more opportunities than a lot of people had. They had choices. I agree with wendalah - if she really felt the way she does about the military and the war, where was she when Casey enlisted, then re-enlisted, then volunteered for the assignment that resulted in his death.

[lawyerlee]

I agree with wendalah - if she really felt the way she does about the military and the war, where was she when Casey enlisted, then re-enlisted, then volunteered for the assignment that resulted in his death.
I don't understand how anyone with that point of view knows what she might have said to her son when he decided to enlist. And I'm sorry, but if your arguments only told true as to her, then you really are being quite judgmental to a woman who is grieving the loss of her son. Again, I'll ask, who are any of the rest of us to judge her for the way in which she chooses to honor his memory?

[lawyerlee]

And, you know, I wouldn't bring up something that was irrelevant to this discussion, but I actually find the fact that this war is based on lies very relevant. And anyone who can still claim to disagree about this is in denial, in my humble opinion. Was it the truth to say that Iraq was part of 9/11? No, it was not. And if that's not a lie, then I must not speak English very well.

[thedoorchick]

You're right - probably no one really knows what she said or didn't say to him. But the point is, when he enlisted, she didn't go cross-country with her anti-war cry. The point is not what she might have said to him, but what she didn't say to the rest of the country.

I (and others) don't think she's doing this to honor his memory. I think she's using him as a platform. And that doesn't honor anyone. I think that point has been made at some point before in this thread.

And that word "judgmental." Why is it so loaded, I wonder? We all judge. I judge her for what she's doing. You judge me for judging her. She judges the President for what he does. It's all just opinions. Being called judgmental doesn't bother me nearly as much as it used to. All it means is that I have taken the time to think about what my viewpoints are.

ETA: Actually, everyone's judgmental of this situation. In some people's judgement, it's justifiable and even touching. In other people's judgment, it's ridiculous. Who's to say that people aren't entitled to one or the other of those judgements?

[wendalah]

I'm sorry Di.
As I said, I don't think there's anything wrong with protesting the war. And I cannot argue that the military tends to market to a certain socioeconomic group. But as long as there is not a draft...I cannot put the complete blame on the system itself when people are not forced outside of their will to join. To do so suggests to me voluntarily abdicating personal responsibility, a concept which scares the shit out of me--and yes, I realize it's very easy to talk from where I stand.

And, as Jasonsbride mentioned, my problem here is more with Cindy as spokesperson. Regarding her, I was pretty much just saying that I am in the camp that doesn't find her very effective.

[thedoorchick]

And, you know, I wouldn't bring up something that was irrelevant to this discussion, but I actually find the fact that this war is based on lies very relevant. And anyone who can still claim to disagree about this is in denial, in my humble opinion. Was it the truth to say that Iraq was part of 9/11? No, it was not. And if that's not a lie, then I must not speak English very well.

Do you really think it's as simple as that? Because I don't. In *my* humble opinion, anyone who thinks that one distinct reason led to our involvement in Iraq is in denial her/himself.

Or maybe I'm wrong. If you can point me to some documentation that assures us all that "The only reason the U.S. is in Iraq is because we believe they were part of 9/11" then I'll stand corrected.

[lawyerlee]

Regarding her, I was pretty much just saying that I am in the camp that doesn't find her very effective.
Yeah, I can see that in one way, but her emotional appeal seems quite compelling to me, in another respect.

I agree with you that people have to take responsibility for their decisions. But I think it is disingenous to pretend that all people have access to the same opportunities in life. And it is different to me for a family member to protest something that took a loved one's life in a way they consider less than honorable. When your loved one dies and you consider him to be a hero because he was out saving the world, that might give you a sense of pride that lessens your grief. But if you feel that your child's life was wasted, as Ms. Sheehan seems to, then I can understand the anger that is causing her to do this.

[lawyerlee]

Do you really think it's as simple as that? Because I don't. In *my* humble opinion, anyone who thinks that one distinct reason led to our involvement in Iraq is in denial her/himself.

Or maybe I'm wrong. If you can point me to some documentation that assures us all that "The only reason the U.S. is in Iraq is because we believe they were part of 9/11" then I'll stand corrected.
There was also the lie about WMDs, which has also been debunked.

And then later it was all about democracy. Expect we went in there not understanding how difficult it would be to bring three distinct factions together under one federal system. And I think we can see right this very second how nearly impossible it is to meet all their needs and desires at once. So that pretty much confirms my belief that this is a bullshit reason not only because it was pulled out of a hat after other reasons started being debunked, but also because it isn't working. And I've noticed that we sure don't near much about bringing democracy to the entire Middle East lately.

[wendalah]

BTW, the Sheehans are Catholic. I know personally that my Catholicism is at complete odds with this war and has made me question my support of the Bush administration more than once. So maybe Cindy did say something to him. We don't know--just as we don't know what Casey thought of his job, either. He may have come to feel he was duped. He may not have, though, either. Lord knows there are rational adults on both sides of the issue.

[lawyerlee]

Lord knows there are rational adults on both sides of the issue.
True. :) Hopefully tomorrow I'll sound like one of them. Cause today I'm a hot mess. ;)

[wendalah]

I just went into the college football thread. It's good for hot mess days. ;)

[kiddo]

You're right - probably no one really knows what she said or didn't say to him. But the point is, when he enlisted, she didn't go cross-country with her anti-war cry. The point is not what she might have said to him, but what she didn't say to the rest of the country.

She is trying to get answers from GWB to the question "Why did my son have to die?" How could she have asked him that before her son died? She wants answers.

So maybe it took her losing a child to get fired up enough to speak out against the administration. Why is it using him to say "Ok, enough is enough, I am not going to let another person go through with the horror of losing a child." Why is being motivated by the loss of a loved one to take action such a bad thing?

[lawyerlee]

I agree, kiddo. To me, it is no different than a parent who loses a child in a drunk driving accident becoming active in MADD. Regardless of whether she spoke with her kid about drinking and driving before the loss, she is trying to bring what she considers to be something good out of her loss. I think it is a remarkably constructive way to try to heal after a loss.

[pocket]

I really feel for Cindy Sheehan. It's pretty clear to me how your child getting killed could turn you from silently disapproving to activist. I know plenty of silently disapproving people who don't particularly like the Iraq War but don't feel a need to speak out or to get involved.

I actually think that the only reason that she is getting so muchg attention is that public opinion has turned irrevokably against the war. Every day the numbers creep up a bit. It's expanded from just folks who were anti-war and anti-bush to now include those who think that whether you supported it or not, it seems like it's been pretty mismanaged and ineffective and been overall not so great for us.

[Delta]

Because you and I both know, there are many people who do not believe the government lied and many people who think the war is about a whole lot more than nothing. And no, I'm not talking about oil or revenge, for goodness' sake
Word, thedoorchick.

I supported the invasion and I could (and still can) see beyond the given reasons we were there. The Administration should not have tried to sell the war on the WMD thing in the first place. That was their first mistake. But at the same time, they needed a concrete reason for political purposes. It wouldn't have been enough to just say that they wanted regime change and in turn a whole ME revolution. I mean, that would have been enough for me personally, but it's too abstract of a concept to really use to justify starting this war.

Bush was duped along with everyone else (except, I suppose, those anti-war folks who somehow magically 'knew' there were not any) in regards to WMD, including other world leaders. No way would he have pushed that reason if he knew otherwise. He and Blair and others got bad information, period. Bush relied on Cheney and the CIA and they let him down. The people who want to believe he lied didn't trust him in the first place anyway.

Now, I don't know what to think about it all now. It's a big fat mess. In hindsite I think the planning was terrible. I can't believe Rumsfeld still has a job and Powell doesn't. On one hand I think we should just help the Iraqis break into 3 separate countries, but on the other hand that would undermine our whole reason for being there - to create a large, self-sustaining democracy in the ME.

Let me now get this back on topic. I absolutely see where Sheehan is coming from and I don't blame her one bit. I don't think she is dishonoring her son. She is grieving. What is unfortunate are some of the rightwingers who arepersonally disparaging her and some of the left wingers who are using her and her grief to embarrass the president (who really, at the very least for PR reasons, should not be on 'vacation' at a time like this in the first place.)

And as for the soldiers and how they decide to enlist...3 of my friends have been over in Iraq and/or Afghanistan for the better part of the past 3-4 years -- one in the Navy, one in the Marines and one in the Army. They all knew exactly what they were doing and risking when they joined the armed forces in the first place, and that it could even lead to fighting in a war they may or may not have believed in personally.

[chefker]

Originally posted by lawyerlee

How much do you think it sickens someone like my wonderful father in law, who saw things so horrible I don't even know what they are because he is literally incapable of talking about them in Vietnam, to know that kids are dying for *nothing* all over again? Well, I'll tell you that it sickens him a lot. He is so messed up from fighting in the jungle over there that it isn't even funny. He tries very hard to be normal, but he's a very closed off person because that is the only way he can cope with what he experienced. We're just lucky he didn't come home with a necklace made out of ears or something, because lots of guys in his situation did. Is that what it will be like for the young men and women who survive this when it is all over, who knows how far from now? How can it be wrong to try to get them home?

AMEN, Diana. My dad is a Vietnam vet who was involved in fighting in the Tet offensive. I can only imagine the psychological scars he carries from that. Like your FIL, my dad can't/won't talk about his tour of duty.

It pisses me off how my dad saw enlisting as an 'opportunity' for education, only to be sent off to fight the VC. Sure, it occurred to him that MAYBE he'd have to fight in a war. But when he enlisted in 1960, his plan was to enlist and go to the Army engineering school. He had 4 brothers at home, and the family couldn't afford to send him to college (not even community college). Sounds like the reasons a good many men & women enlist today, doesn't it? Dad didn't even get to finish engineering school. Out of Vietnam, dad got: malaria; a head injury; and a nervous breakdown, which led to an honorable discharge. And he was one of the lucky ones, IMO. Had he NOT made it home alive, I would not be here today.

Of course, there was a surge of enlistments after 9/11 happened. At that time, everyone believed our armed forces were going after bin Laden, or whoever perpetrated the attacks on the twin towers. At least that's what I believed, initially. It WAS great to see patriotism amongst Gen-X, but in hindsight, the impetus for this national pride was a lie (suddenly invading Iraq as a response to 9/11, and the magically disappearing WMD, et al).

Living with my dad's experience in Vietnam, makes me appreciate and understand what Cindy Sheehan is trying to do. And as far as Sheehan trying to talk her son out of enlisting--perhaps she, like so many of us, didn't really know what our armed forces were getting into at the time. It's only recently that Rumsfeld projected we'll be in Iraq 'another dozen years'. Also, my own grandmother didn't want my dad to enlist. But enlist he did, thinking he could get the education he needed, and he also sent 1/2 his earnings home to help his mother out with expenses.

Anyway, I'm amazed that Cindy Sheehan's movement is even getting any press, seeing as the media appeared to be pretty pro-war in the beginning (IMO). It seems that the tide of public opinion is turning slightly against the war. The longer we're in Iraq, it seems support for GWB, and for remaining in Iraq, is decreasing (if you're a poll watcher, anyway!)

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

GWB was duped? He believed what he wanted to believe. There was plenty of evidence to argue against going to war, but that to support it was in line with what they wanted to do, to "bring peace to the Middle East."

As far as those people who "magically knew" ahead of time that there weren't weapons in Iraq... Well, I suppose it's like the people who "magically knew" the whole CBS-Dan Rather papers were forgeries. We all require a different amount of proof to decide what's what.

[dionysia]

It's a big fat mess.
<snip>
I can't believe Rumsfeld still has a job and Powell doesn't.

*high fives*

(following section reposted from my LJ)

So while I agree with the Prez that it's not appropriate for us to cut and run in Iraq right now, is it too much to ask for an Exit Strateg(er)y?

I'm not asking for a date, since I know it's hard to estimate such things, plus if a date was given and we weren't completely out by that date, the moaning and groaning would be very loud indeed. But a timeframe? "In $NUMBER of months, we hope for $EVENT to have happened. When it does, $NUMBER of troops will return home. Then in $MONTH, Iraq will have had a constitution & Parliament for $TIME. We anticipate that we will be able to $ACTION, bringing a further $NUMBER of troops home." KWIM? Is that too much to ask for?

Meanwhile, I think the absolute best we can hope for is to get the constitution written, continue to have Parliament meeting and voting, and train the Iraqi police & security forces at least to a certain extent. I don't think we'll achieve peace in Iraq; the various groups are going to continue to fight each other long after we are gone. But I do think we need a timeframe and if possible an absolute 'drop dead' target date/or timeframe. "We will be completely out of Iraq by $MONTH, $YEAR." It's this not knowing how long things will last and this not knowing if things are going to get any better for the Iraqis and our soldiers that's driving the approval numbers down.

Di

[lawyerlee]

Now, I don't know what to think about it all now. It's a big fat mess. In hindsite I think the planning was terrible. I can't believe Rumsfeld still has a job and Powell doesn't. On one hand I think we should just help the Iraqis break into 3 separate countries, but on the other hand that would undermine our whole reason for being there - to create a large, self-sustaining democracy in the ME.
Exactly. And wouldn't this have been something to consider *before* we invaded? Everything we needed to know about the Shia, Sunnis, and Kurds was available to us before the invasion. But for some reason, we didn't pay a damned bit of attention to whether our form of government would work for them. When you rely on criminals like Ahmed Chalabi for information, it's no wonder things become a huge flipping mess. Part of being a leader is knowing who to trust.

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

It flipping drives me crazy, that all of the stuff about the potential for a power vacuum if Saddam was overthrown was just pooh-poohed. Dammit. And now, what do we have?

[pocket]

I just can’t believe that there are still people who think this war was a good idea.

“It wouldn't have been enough to just say that they wanted regime change and in turn a whole ME revolution. I mean, that would have been enough for me personally, but it's too abstract of a concept to really use to justify starting this war.”

For me it’s not that this is an abstract concept, but that if they had stood up and said that this was why they wanted to invade Iraq, I would have opposed it strenuously. As it was I was only partially convinced. I just don’t think this is a good use of our tax dollars and the precious lives of American citizens. As it turns out Saddam Hussein was just not that dangerous.

In fact what we have done is turn a country suffering from a bad government, but basic security, into a hellhole on the verge of civil war with us defending a puppet government against an insurgency partnered with Iran. We are in the ridiculous position of trying to defend an appalling constitution. We can’t even secure the road between the airport and the capital. We have tried all the wrong military tactics with too few troops, too much propaganda and too little accountability.

Bush showed VERY POOR JUDGMENT in this situation. If he was duped along with everyone else, it was because he chose to value certain sources of information too highly, and to regard particular narratives regarding the ME and Iraq as truth. Other leaders may also have been duped by this narrative, but only the US valued that information and that narrative so highly and we so convinced that they invaded a sovereign nation, a member of the UN and took it upon themselves to decide what the govt of that country should be. He is the President. He is responsible. He does not get a pass on this one. How can you say that Cheney and the CIA bear the responsibility? Bush is the President.

If the people who made this war had been right, that would have been one thing. But they have been wrong about almost everything at every step along the way. This war was a huge mistake and it’s a huge disaster. It’s not going to turn around, we are getting spanked over there, and we need to step away from the propaganda and start getting real about what’s happening in Iraq.

We are not powerful enough to create a large self-sustaining democracy in Iraq. We don’t have the power to make another have a particular kind of govt by sheer force of will and force of arms. Some people in our govt thought that we were powerful enough to do that and they were hubristic and dead wrong, operating on ideology and facts hammered in round holes whether they fit or not. Any scrap of information that fit the mold was shined up and dressed in ribbons. any piece of information that didn't fit was discredited by any means necessary.

It's bad. It's dirty. We deserve better.

[Delta]

I just can’t believe that there are still people who think this war was a good idea.
Yeah, I do. I think the mistakes/mismanagement along the way have really f'ed things up though.

There was an interesting article about Paul Wolfowitz in the Atlantic last month and it sheds a lot of light onto the thinking behind their strategy there, up until this April, at least. http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200507/bowdenhttp://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200507/bowden (http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200507/bowden)

It's a great magazine in general and worth subscribing.

[thedoorchick]

Pocket, that was a very insightful and thought-provoking post, even though I don't necessarily agree with all of it.

But this had me scratching my head:
As it turns out Saddam Hussein was just not that dangerous.
I can appreciate that many think that it was just none of our business to get involved in the mess that was Hussein's rule in Iraq. But "just not that dangerous" is not a phrase I would ever expect to be used to describe that man.

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

IMO, a government that justifies a war to its people with made-up reasons because the citizens would not "understand" the "real" reasons, is not a democratic government.

[lawyerlee]

But "just not that dangerous" is not a phrase I would ever expect to be used to describe that man.
How was he a danger to us? The UN was doing its job and keeping him contained. The fact that he didn't have any weapons is evidence of the fact that those restrictions were effective.

[thedoorchick]

How was he a danger to us? The UN was doing its job and keeping him contained. The fact that he didn't have any weapons is evidence of the fact that those restrictions were effective.

I didn't say he was a danger to us. Just because someone isn't a danger to me personally, doesn't mean they're not dangerous.

When I hear Saddam Hussein referred to as "not dangerous," all I can do is laugh.

[lawyerlee]

I didn't say he was a danger to us. Just because someone isn't a danger to me personally, doesn't mean they're not dangerous.
OK, but there are plenty of other dangerous leaders in the world. We obviously can't go kick ass in every one of those countries. So I'd really like to know what the measuring stick is for deciding to intervene. Further, we propped him up and supported him in his bad behavior because of our hatred for Iran. Why didn't we stop him from killing his own people then? Was he less dangerous then?

[pocket]

yeah, that's what i think - not that he wasn't dangerous at all, but that he wasn't dangerous enough that he needed be evicted by force by the US. What about SH was a danger to the US? That he might give WMD info to terrorists, right? You know who actually did that? Pakistan did. Our BFF's, Pakistan. They are saying that it was just that one scientist, but that is BS. Let's see....a country who are giving WMD's to "rogue states", has a military dictatorship, serious problems with state-sanctioned rape, and is harboring terrorists within their borders...who could it be? who could it be...?

[curlyjr]

As far as the statement that there are plenty of dangerous leaders in the world and we cant just kick everyones ass, I think thats exactly what W wants to do, as far as his spreading freedom across the worls spiel and all. If he ever does get us out of Iraq I wonder who he will attack next.

[artist]

As far as the statement that there are plenty of dangerous leaders in the world and we cant just kick everyones ass, I think thats exactly what W wants to do, as far as his spreading freedom across the worls spiel and all. If he ever does get us out of Iraq I wonder who he will attack next.

Iran, North Korea...you name it.

[pocket]

Have you seen this ad that's follwing the president around as he tries to play offense? She's intense.

http://www.meetwithcindy.org/movie2.htm

[amyloo]

*delurking*

I usually stay out of hot topics like this, but I wanted to share with you something that my brother told me.

He's serving in Iraq and has been there for almost a year. He trains Iraqi security personnell and has been able to share a lot of stories with us about things that are going on and his opinions and the morale where he is. We're from Texas so I asked him what he thought about the Sheehan thing. What he said to me was very interesting. He told me that regardless of how he ended up where he is- he is very glad to be there because he is fighting for a noble cause. These people have had no say in their lives for so long- that they have forgotten how speak up. He feels like he is part of something bigger than "a war", even if it is a war of lies. He said that while he feels for her grief, there is a good work being accomplished in Iraq.

I think that in all of our finger pointing we have been missing a bigger picture. If going in for the wrong reasons is a mistake, wouldn't leaving for the wrong reasons also be a mistake?

I certainly empathize with Mrs. Sheehan, and while I applaud her right to protest, I think it has gone beyond her simply wanting to meet with the president.

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

I think that in all of our finger pointing we have been missing a bigger picture. If going in for the wrong reasons is a mistake, wouldn't leaving for the wrong reasons also be a mistake?
What do you define as "leaving for the wrong reasons"?

[lawyerlee]

Interesting thoughts, amyloo. I'm extremely glad you decided to delurk and share them with us. :)

I, too, would be interested in hearing more about the idea of leaving for the wrong reasons.

[amyloo]

I think that it would be a mistake for the U.S. to just up and leave because everyone feels that we were lied to. I think that might lead to even more harm for the people of Iraq. I understand the argument that we never should have gone there in the first place. (believe me :) ) But we did go there and now I feel that we need to stay. I just think that it would be irresponsible for us not to clean up the mess we made.

[pocket]

i completely agree with this - or i did until recently. but i am no longer sure that we are cleaning up. it seems like we are just spreading it around and making a bigger mess.

[artist]

I do wish there were a lot of Nat'l Guardsmen helping with this terrible hurricane instead of being sent to Iraq.