Court Upholds Va. Pledge Requirement

[lawyerlee]

Agree? Disagree?

Court Upholds Va. Pledge Requirement (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,165368,00.html)
Fox News

Thursday, August 11, 2005
Associated Press

RICHMOND, Va.*—*An appeals court on Wednesday upheld a Virginia law that requires public schools to lead a daily recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance, rejecting a claim that its reference to God was an unconstitutional promotion of religion.

A suit filed by Edward Myers of Sterling, Va., a father of three, raised the objection to the phrase “one nation under God.”

A three-judge panel of the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that the pledge is a patriotic exercise, not an affirmation of religion similar to a prayer.

“Undoubtedly, the pledge contains a religious phrase, and it is demeaning to persons of any faith to assert that the words ‘under God’ contain no religious significance,” Judge Karen Williams wrote. “The inclusion of those two words, however, does not alter the nature of the pledge as a patriotic activity.”

Myers’ attorney, David Remes, said the 4th Circuit judges failed to examine the pledge’s effect on children.

“The problem is that young schoolchildren are quite likely to view the pledge as affirming the existence of God and national subordination to God,” Remes said. “The reference to God is one of the few things in the pledge that children understand.”

Remes said he and his client had not yet discussed whether to appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court.

A spokeswoman for state Attorney General Judith Williams Jagdmann did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

Three years ago, a federal appeals court in California sided with another father who had argued that requiring the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools was unconstitutional because of the words “under God.” However, the U.S. Supreme Court dismissed that case last year, saying Michael Newdow lacked standing to sue on behalf of his young daughter because he didn’t have custody of her.

Newdow, an atheist, has since filed suit against four Sacramento-area school districts on behalf several atheist children and their families.

[funky$meg]

Disagree! Virginia, what are you thinking?? (jeez..and I live here! :rolleyes: )

The phrase "under god" was inserted during the cold war/red scare era. It was not originally in the pledge! It should have been taken out years ago in my opinion!

[BTB]

Eh - don't really care either way. Maybe if I was an atheist it would bother me - fair enough. But this just isn't a big deal to me that it's in there, and it wouldn't really matter to me if it were taken out. What I remember from grade school about the pledge is that we just randomly recited it because we had to, and I never really thought about it one way or the other, until there was a kid in my fifth grade class who was a Jehovah's Witness and couldn't say the Pledge because he's not allowed to pledge allegiance to anything BUT God (much less a flag!) so I guess this argument can go both ways. As long as they're only requiring the school to have it, and not requiring each and every student to participate, this just doesn't get me very excited.

[greenbunny]

As long as they're only requiring the school to have it, and not requiring each and every student to participate, this just doesn't get me very excited.

*agrees with BTB*

*feels slightly faint*

[emmjay]

I'm an atheist. I don't care, but I'm kind of apathetic about things like this anyway. ;)

If pressed, I would say they should take it out because, as funky$meg said, the "under God" is not part of the original Pledge. But I really could not care less as long as they don't force kids to do it if the kid has an objection.

And the part about how children will view it as national subordination to God? Come on now, that's a bit over the top. Kids just singsong the pledge from rote memorization - I doubt many of them are examining the meaning of the words.

[camberne]

We discussed this when the original ruling came out. Honestly, even if they took the words "under G-d" out of the pledge, I would still say it out of habit, and I imagine all the kids would, too.

Whatever...

[wendalah]

Not really that heated up over this either, but agree with Emmjay on this:

“The reference to God is one of the few things in the pledge that children understand.”

Yeah right. I know that as a kid I said the pledge robotically every day and no particular part of it stood out in my head.

BTW, the evil nasty part of me hopes that guy Newdow's kid flunks geometry and gets a 200 on her SAT. He annoys me. I'm bad, I know.

[Irish Elf]

If you're atheist, does that mean you don't believe in God? Or is that agnostic? So what does it matter if a kid recites a pledge from memory. I doubt saying under God will make them suddenly convert to an religion. I'm not being snarky - I'm really interested in the question.

On a side note - whenever I thought about the pledge I always pictured a map of the US with a giant umbrella over it (God being the embrella, like He was protecting us.)

[emmjay]

If you're atheist, does that mean you don't believe in God? Or is that agnostic? So what does it matter if a kid recites a pledge from memory. I doubt saying under God will make them suddenly convert to an religion. I'm not being snarky - I'm really interested in the question.
Yes, you are correct that an atheist doesn't believe in God - an agnostic believes that no one can know either way whether God exists.

I completely agree with you that it doesn't matter. That's like people who don't want their kids exposed to an atheist or atheistic ideas because they are afraid their kid will lose his/her faith.

[lawyerlee]

I don't think it necessarily applies here, but I do think parents who have are raising their kids in a less than mainstream belief system have a legitimate worry if their kids are forced to basically practice other religions because kids just aren't like adults. They are easy to convince of things and sway to different ways of thinking. And I don't think it is that these parents are "afraid" for their kids to learn about other religions - they just want to be the ones to help them learn and guide them through that experience.

In this situation, however, as long as the individual schools allow kids to not say the pledge, I think the law is fine. :)

[MLA]

Meh. I'm agnostic, and I don't care that much. I think that it should be taken out because it's not part of the original pledge (it was added during the 1950's when everyone was scared that the godless communists were going to take over), but I'm certainly not up in arms about it.

Honestly, I don't think we should say a pledge of allegiance at all. The pledge wasn't created until the 19th Century -- and the guy who wrote it (interestingly enough, a socialist) didn't expect it to be something that was said all the time; he wrote it for a special occasion. I somehow can't see Thomas Jefferson or Benjamin Franklin reciting such a pledge, but that's just me.

But whatever. The pledge had no meaning to me as a child, and it doesn't really now. I don't consider my allegiance to be tied to this country -- or any government, for that matter. My allegiance is to my family and my ideals.

Again, I say, meh.

[thompso2]

“The problem is that young schoolchildren are quite likely to view the pledge as affirming the existence of God and national subordination to God,” Remes said. “The reference to God is one of the few things in the pledge that children understand.”
I have to say that this made me laugh, because I learned the Pledge of Allegiance in preschool, and I always said "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, underground and invisible, with liberty and justice for all." :o

[lawyerlee]

That's awesome, Jess! :D

[MLA]

I have to say that this made me laugh, because I learned the Pledge of Allegiance in preschool, and I always said "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, underground and invisible, with liberty and justice for all." :o

LOL! I remember thinking that there was a country called "Tisothy" when I was little because "My Country 'Tis of Thee" didn't compute with me. That song just made no sense at all to a 7 yr old. :)

[thedoorchick]

And who can forget this from the Ramona books:

"Oh say, can you see, by the dawnzer lee light..."

[lawyerlee]

"Oh say, can you see, by the dawnzer lee light..."
:D

There's something very wonderful about a time when things are so simple that the words of popular songs and pledges don't even quite make sense to you yet. *sigh* :)

[Kimberland30]

I don't care either way, but I hardly doubt that having the words "Under God" in the pledge is going to make our children turn into little Christians (OH MY GAWD!). It's the parents making the big deal out of it anyway.

I loved the Ramona books! :)

[tgray99]

Kids just singsong the pledge from rote memorization - I doubt many of them are examining the meaning of the words.
This is very true. Kids start saying it in kindergarten or 1st grade and even by 5th grade they still have no clue what they're saying.

Case in point: I taught 5th grade 4 years ago and as an extra credit on one of their spelling tests, I wanted them to write out the Pledge. I figured they knew the words, so it shouldn't be hard. Oy vey. It was terrible! Most of them wrote out made up words! They wrote what it sounded like, not the real words. I think I had one kid get it right. :rolleyes: Kids don't know what they're saying. It's adults who make a big deal about it. Someday people should ask kids what they think rather than making decisions for them.

[lawyerlee]

Someday people should ask kids what they think rather than making decisions for them.
I can see what you are saying, but I think we would all agree that it is the responsibility of parents to make decisions for their children because they are responsible for bringing them up to be happy, healthy adults.

[tgray99]

I can see what you are saying, but I think we would all agree that it is the responsibility of parents to make decisions for their children because they are responsible for bringing them up to be happy, healthy adults.
I'm not saying kids should have the final say by any means but people should at least get their opinions before jumping into something that most kids could care less about.