Legalized Prostitution [Archive]

Katie&Micah

08-09-2005, 06:45 AM

I don't have real strong feelings on this topic, but if I had to choose I'd be for legalizing prostitution.

I feel like there is a huge difference in some 17 year old living on the streets having sex so she can eat and a person of legal age who is doing it because she makes alot of money at it.

If you like what you're doing, or even if you just don't mind what you're doing then I say go for it. I do feel a little bad for the drug addicts doing it for $10 so they can get a fix. I also feel bad for the teen who got kicked out of her house and thinks this is the only way she can survive.

If it's going to be legal I'd like it to be kept off the streets. And I'd like it to be mandatory that you have frequent testing.

Plus, I also think it would give todays younger people the image that it's ok to sleep around.

I'm having a hard time understanding your thinking behind this. If you happen to come back to the thread could you explain for me please?

Chris'slady

08-09-2005, 06:47 AM

I dont think it should be legal

IrisHope

08-09-2005, 07:24 AM

Katie, I am leaning towards your way of thinking but not 100% there. Besides the fact that areas that have a lot of prostitution are run down and full of crime, I don't have a problem with it on one level. But, on the other hand I feel badly for the young woman who goes into this because of a life full of crisis. Do you think the whole industry would change and not be so full of crime if it was to become legal?

gayle

08-09-2005, 07:30 AM

Jaycee

08-09-2005, 07:34 AM

It works quite well in Nevada as a controlled business. Legalizing means the women have safe and fair working practices, as well as state mandated health checks.

There will always be prostitution. To not legalize it keeps it dangerous, seedy and unregulated for everyone involved.

Obviously I am in favor of legalizing it.
I agree. It also works well in amsterdam. Legalizing it creates a whole new set of standards, which IMO will decrease the number of $10 crack whores that are out there, if there is a cleaner safer alternative out there for the men that are going to solicit regardless.

Hangin'in

08-09-2005, 07:35 AM

I think that it would be better if it was legalized. The women would be safer.... the men would be safer... which ever the way it went. I think that they should have to work out of legal *houses*, and I think that the owners of these establishments should have to do mandated testing, and provide the workers health insurance and benefits. It has worked in other countries, and it could work here.

I don't believe that legalizing it would impact whether young people think it is or is not okay to *sleep around*.

The government could tax the hell out of it, and use the money for better schools, or roads... or anything else.

I also believe the same should be done for certain illegal drugs, but that is a discussion for another thread. :)

ETA: I obviously posted with several other ladies at the same time... and I repeated them.

Katie&Micah

08-09-2005, 07:37 AM

It's hard to say if anything would really change. But I can imagine that people would still rather save some $$$ and find someone off the street that needs the money so desperately that they'll do it for $15.00 instead of $150.00 (not that I know anything about pricing.. I'm just making up figures here). I think it might help to get some of the girls off of the streets. But most of all I would hope that it would just make everything more safe. I think that unfortunately there are always going to be people who are in bad places.. whether they are prostitutes or drug addicts or whatever.
I'd like to know how it's working out in the countries that have already legalized it.

Katie&Micah

08-09-2005, 07:39 AM

ok.. so it took me a little too long to type my last post and everyone said it much better than me. so I'll just say ditto!

artist

08-09-2005, 07:50 AM

Yep, should be legal. It would be safer. Prostitution has been around since the beginning of time. Outlawing something does not make it go away. It just makes it more dangerous. Legalizing it means it could be regulated.

And for the record, I think prostitution is very depressing and sad. But that still does not change my opinion on whether or not it should be legal.

IrisHope

08-09-2005, 07:50 AM

On a personal level I don't know who's business it is if I decide to sleep with a man who gives me money when we're finished. It's sex.

camberne

08-09-2005, 07:55 AM

For the exact reasons that Gayle posted, I think that the benefits outweigh the negatives in legalizing prostitution.

BTB

08-09-2005, 08:20 AM

Clearly I have the unpopular opinion here, but it's not the first time and I'm sure it won't be the last. ;) No, I am not in favor of legal prostitution. I think it is immoral, inherently dangerous for all involved, and destructive to families. Given that, I do not wish to see our culture condone it.

Yes, people will do it anyway. My DD will break some if not all the rules I give her, but that doesn't mean I'm going to throw in the towel and stop setting standards for her.

thedoorchick

08-09-2005, 08:23 AM

I'm with BTB. I could go into all the reasons, but I think a big "ditto" will suffice.

Jaycee

08-09-2005, 08:26 AM

I think it is immoral, inherently dangerous for all involved, and destructive to families. Given that, I do not wish to see our culture condone it.
I don't think anyone here is saying they think it's great and want to see more of it because it's so safe, moral, and healthy. :)

RileyMom

08-09-2005, 08:30 AM

I agree with both sides. :p I guess I would need to know how it is working in other countries that have legalized it before I could form an opinion. I do agree that it is a very sad practice and I wish it didn't exist, but the fact remains that it does, always has, and always will.

BTB

08-09-2005, 08:33 AM

I don't think anyone here is saying they think it's great and want to see more of it because it's so safe, moral, and healthy.

I think if legalized, it becomes "okay" and that there will surely be more of it.

the fact remains that it does, always has, and always will.

Lots of ills plague mankind - murder, theft, deception. I say we take a strong stance against those kinds of things we don't wish to say are great, safe, and healthy. :)

artist

08-09-2005, 08:33 AM

If prostitution is illegal for those reasons, then guns should ALSO be illegal. I totally think guns are immoral and they kill people. (Yeah yeah. Here's the part where you say, "Artist, guns don't kill people. People kill people!" Well, true, but what do they kill people with? GUNS! Yep, guns. Do guns have any purpose OTHER then killing? Isn't that what they're designed to do? So, the real answer is People WITH guns kill people with their guns!)

But, should guns be outlawed? (Despite the whole Bill of Rights here. Just on a strictly moral level.)

IrisHope

08-09-2005, 08:34 AM

I do agree that it is is very immoral. That's why I am so mixed.

BTB

08-09-2005, 08:35 AM

Here's the part where you say, "Artist, guns don't kill people. People kill people!"

Ah, but we don't know each other that well, apparently, for you to know what I'll say next. I can't be 'boxed' nicely into one party or the other.

I'm all for gun control. Outlaw every single one, including BB's. While we're at it, I don't like water guns or toy guns either. I'm completely serious.

Jaycee

08-09-2005, 08:36 AM

I think if legalized, it becomes "okay" and that there will surely be more of it.

Thats where I think most of our opinions will differ. I don't think that legalizing makes it "okay" if a persons morals and values already think it's "not okay".

RileyMom

08-09-2005, 08:36 AM

I think if legalized, it becomes "okay" and that there will surely be more of it.

Respectfully, I'm not sure I agree with that. I don't think there are tons of women right now thinking "gee, if selling my body were legal, I'd do it in a minute." I think that if you want to be a prosititute, you will do it, legal or not. I feel the same way about abortion. Making it illegal will not deter people from doing that, either, which is what many people think. Of course, admittedly, this is all just my opinion. :)

Katie&Micah

08-09-2005, 08:36 AM

I think if legalized, it becomes "okay" and that there will surely be more of it

I personally already think it's okay. If the person decides for themselves that this is what they want to do and they go about it in a safe manner then they should do it.

It's a job. A way of making money. I personally wouldn't want to be a prostitute, but I wouldn't want to work at Mcdonald's either. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with either job, just that I personally don't want to do them.

It becomes something different when you are putting others at risk because you dont' get tested/treated and you're not using protection. It's not appropriate for underag people, but when it's an adult I think it's fine.

BTB

08-09-2005, 08:37 AM

I don't think that legalizing makes it "okay" if a persons morals and values already think it's "not okay".

I don't mean on an individual level, but on a cultural one. It becomes a behavior we are willing to accept, even if that acceptance was just for an attempt at control.

I don't believe legalization would permit control, as I think there would always be a captalism of sorts with market forces at play. There will always be someone cheaper not in the nice clean brothel.

dionysia

08-09-2005, 08:38 AM

Yes, I believe it should be legalized.

Others have echoed my sentiments as to why.

Trust me, I don't condone cheating, regardless of whether one pays for it or not. :p

Di

artist

08-09-2005, 08:39 AM

So, the reasons all of you are giving for outlawing it...

While we're at it, let's outlaw...

-Pornography (sex for money)
-Strip clubs (sex workers)
-maybe even love scenes in movies (pretending to have sex for money)

thedoorchick

08-09-2005, 08:39 AM

If prostitution is illegal for those reasons, then guns should ALSO be illegal.
Ah, but that is apples to oranges. That should have been phrased, "If prostitution is illegal for those reasons, then killing should also be illegal." Wait - but it already is.

Alternatively, you could say, "If condoms/sex toys/other tools of the prostitution trade are illegal, then guns should also be illegal." But I don't think anyone is suggesting that condoms become illegal.

Prostitution is an action. A gun is not an action.

BTB

08-09-2005, 08:40 AM

Respectfully, I'm not sure I agree with that. I don't think there are tons of women right now thinking "gee, if selling my body were legal, I'd do it in a minute." I think that if you want to be a prosititute, you will do it, legal or not.

No, I agree. :) It's not something you discuss on career day, and there probably aren't bunches of little girls daydreaming of the day they become prostitutes.

But again, I'm speaking culturally, not individually.

It's a job. A way of making money.

This is why we could never agree: with all due respect to the poster, the sentiment makes me nauseous.

kemaji

08-09-2005, 08:41 AM

I agree that it should be legalized (and regulated and taxed) for the reasons that Gayle stated.

artist

08-09-2005, 08:42 AM

Ah, but that is apples to oranges. That should have been phrased, "If prostitution is illegal for those reasons, then killing should also be illegal." Wait - but it already is.

Alternatively, you could say, "If condoms/sex toys/other tools of the prostitution trade are illegal, then guns should also be illegal." But I don't think anyone is suggesting that condoms become illegal.

Prostitution is an action. A gun is not an action.

To me, a gun IS an action. To me, owning a gun is liking giving someone the middle finger. (MY opinion. I realize you don't agree and that's okay.)

And by the way, despite my hatred of guns, I do not think they should be outlawed, but I am all for regulating the hell out of them.

BTB

08-09-2005, 08:43 AM

So, the reasons all of you are giving for outlawing it...

While we're at it, let's outlaw...

-Pornography (sex for money)
-Strip clubs (sex workers)

Yes! Now you're speaking my language. I'm behind that 100%.

-maybe even love scenes in movies (pretending to have sex for money)

Representation on film is very different IMPOV than the real-life action.

lawyerlee

08-09-2005, 08:44 AM

I try very hard not to look down on anyone else for her position in life, but I can't jive with the idea that being a prostitute is "just a job".

I would actually like to see something more than anectodal evidence to show that in places in the US where prostitution has been legalized, it has had a positive effect on the working conditions and safety for the women.

IrisHope

08-09-2005, 08:45 AM

With all due respect, BTB, I wouldn't want to live in a world like that. They tried to make alcohol illegal and look what happened.

BTB

08-09-2005, 08:48 AM

It's ok, I seriously doubt you'd ever have to live in a world like that. Just saying that the "but if we ban that we'd have to ban this too" argument doesn't really bother me because I wouldn't be sad to see those other things go too. :)

IrisHope

08-09-2005, 08:48 AM

Oh ok I get it :)

IrisHope

08-09-2005, 08:49 AM

Just curious why this got moved to News & Politics? What exactly constitutes "chit chat"?

villanelle75

08-09-2005, 08:49 AM

I think legalizing it would, as others have pointed out, make it safer for "clients' and prostitutes alike. More importatly, I think it's my damn body and it's none of your (general) damn business what I do with it. It seems archane that the government should have any say at all in how I chose to run my sex life. It's been suggested here that legalizing prostitution would somehow be demeaning to women or would allow a deaming act to become more popular. I think the opposite is true- legalizing prostitution is one more way we could say that what a woman does with her vagina is her business (pun intended ;) ) and therfore it would actually be another way to empower women. When old, white, male legislators get to decide what I can and cannot do with my vagina, it just reenforces the notion that my sexual power is not my own and my sexual decisions are not mine alone to make. Even if it's a choice that many of us find distasteful and most of us would not make, just having the right to make it if we chose empowers us all.

Not that I have strong feelings on this or anything. ;)

kris97

08-09-2005, 08:50 AM

My big concern about legalizing it is the same one echoed by previous posters - it's great to have it regulated, but won't a black market -- that is unregulated -- pop up? Can anyone from Nevada or Amsterdam speak to whether this has happened?

artist

08-09-2005, 08:50 AM

Also, I agree that it's not "just a job", but I do still think legalizing it makes it safer. Having it legal means we get to keep tabs on it more. For example, maybe the prostitutes have to register with the government or something, get plenty of physicals, STD testing, birth control, etc. Perhaps part of it could be some sort of a program to help assist the women with getting OUT of it and doing something healthier.

cocoa_femme

08-09-2005, 08:52 AM

I'm not 100% sure, but if I had to choose right now, I'd go for making it legal, but taxing and regulating it.

artist

08-09-2005, 08:55 AM

I'm not 100% sure, but if I had to choose right now, I'd go for making it legal, but taxing and regulating it.

Tax the johns! Tax the pimps!

Hmm, if it were legal, would there be a need for pimps?

lawyerlee

08-09-2005, 08:57 AM

Just curious why this got moved to News & Politics? What exactly constitutes "chit chat"?
Whether something should or should not be legalized seems to fit squarely within politics. I know we're not necessarily used to having a separate board for this purpose, but I think that in time, it will become more comfortable. :)

artist

08-09-2005, 08:58 AM

Katie&Micah

08-09-2005, 08:59 AM

Why is it not just a job? Porn stars do it and it's just a job. But if you don't do it on film but rather in private it's no longer a job to have sex?

If it's not a job what is it?

I used to follow a journal on lj who is a prostitute in Australia. She's in it for the money. She's making tons of it and she is investing so that she can retire at an early age. To her.. it's just a job. It doesn't define the person that you are. It doesn't make you an immoral person because you have sex for a living.

kiddo

08-09-2005, 09:00 AM

I think it should be legal, however I wouldn't want it done in my neighborhood. I know, it doesn't make sense.

IrisHope

08-09-2005, 09:01 AM

Ok Diana, thanks :)

BTB

08-09-2005, 09:02 AM

To her.. it's just a job. It doesn't define the person that you are. It doesn't make you an immoral person because you have sex for a living.

That's opinion, not fact, and one not shared by many of those who think there's something wrong with prostitution.

artist

08-09-2005, 09:03 AM

I think the difference is that a porn star has a little more control. There is no pimp. I think porn stars have a lot more freedom.

Prostitutes get beat up and killed. Prostitutes have sketchy clients.

With porn, who is the "client"? Some dude renting a movie? Or, some creep in his car who may or may not beat the shit out of you at 3 a.m. in the inner-city after you give him a blowjob? Oh, and he might also have AIDS or something.

If you're a porn star, you probably KNOW the other porn stars. It just seems like it would be SLIGHTLY more safe. Not that porn doesn't have it's own problems, but it does seem a bit safer.

cocoa_femme

08-09-2005, 09:04 AM

Tax the johns! Tax the pimps!

Hmm, if it were legal, would there be a need for pimps?
Not sure. But if there were no pimps, what would all those people in the "pimp cup" and "pimp juice" industries loose their jobs? :D :p

http://www.letitloose.com/i/p/t/PJ-Poster.jpg

http://www.customcups.net/images/MVC-009S7.JPG

kemaji

08-09-2005, 09:05 AM

From Wikipedia on Prostitution in Nevada:

Since 1986, when mandatory testing began, not a single brothel prostitute has ever tested positive for HIV. The mandatory condom law was passed in 1988.

A study conducted in 1995 in two brothels found that condom use in the brothels is consistent and sexually transmitted diseases are accordingly absent. The study also found that few of the prostitutes use condoms in their private lives.

The whole thing can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_Nevada

IrisHope

08-09-2005, 09:06 AM

Katie good point. What's the difference between prostitutes & porn stars?

Katie&Micah

08-09-2005, 09:06 AM

That's opinion, not fact, and one not shared by many of those who think there's something wrong with prostitution.

Of course it's an opinion. This entire thread is opinions. That's why I said "To her.." not "To every prostitute in the world..."

funky$meg

08-09-2005, 09:08 AM

Well said, Katie&Mitch and villanelle75...

Until our culture changes its perception of sexuality in general, it will not be an easy road to making something that so many people see as wrong (having sex) into something that can be legal and safer for those involved.

Katie&Micah

08-09-2005, 09:08 AM

Artist..

I think you have to remember that not every prostitute is having sex in a dark alley with some random person.

artist

08-09-2005, 09:09 AM

Wanted to clarify that when I earlier was comparing porn to prostitution, I was comparing it to ILLEGAL/UNREGULATED prostitution. Certainly legalizing it might change things.

artist

08-09-2005, 09:10 AM

Artist..

I think you have to remember that not every prostitute is having sex in a dark alley with some random person.

True. There are "high class" prostitutes, but obviously we can't ignore the prevelence of the dark alley prostitute.

LittleFredPunkinHead

08-09-2005, 09:10 AM

I agree 100% with villanelle on this.

IrisHope

08-09-2005, 09:10 AM

thedoorchick

08-09-2005, 09:11 AM

I couldn't agree more that our society needs to change its perception of sexuality in general.

However, I suspect that funky$meg and I are looking at this from an exact opposite viewpoint. ;)

BTB

08-09-2005, 09:12 AM

What's the difference between prostitutes & porn stars?

I don't think there is one. Ban them both! :D

Anybody else remember reading about the HIV outbreak in the CA porn industry what, a year or two ago now? Despite the use of condoms. They're not foolproof.

Katie, it was just the way you stated this: "It doesn't make you an immoral person because you have sex for a living." without the obligatory WC/CC "I think..." preceding it. ;)

Because I disagree, and think having sex for a living does render one immoral.

If it's not a job what is it?

(obligatory impov) ;) Sex is something more than just a service to be rendered. It can't and shouldn't be denigrated to, say, having your aluminum siding redone. Provide a service, get paid, move on. Yes, that's morality, I'm advocating legislating morality, in the "bare minimum" sense. Just like we don't allow murder - it's wrong, and it's destructive to families and communities.

IrisHope

08-09-2005, 09:13 AM

Should my morality dictate how you live your life?

LittleFredPunkinHead

08-09-2005, 09:18 AM

True. There are "high class" prostitutes, but obviously we can't ignore the prevelence of the dark alley prostitute.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that in the places in the U.S. and Western Europe that have legalized prostitution, those "dark alley" prostitutes would still be illegal. I'm pretty sure that the standards for legal prostitution are pretty strict and the "street corner hooker" is not legal.

gayle

08-09-2005, 09:18 AM

A very interesting and detailed article on why prostitution should be legalized
http://www.liberator.net/articles/prostitution.html

BTB

08-09-2005, 09:32 AM

Should my morality dictate how you live your life?

Yes! In this sense morality extends to basic rules required to keep society running. If my morality permits murder, should my morality dictate how you live your life? We legislate morality all the time, we're just so used to the laws we don't see it that way.

We allow the curtailment of your right to do whatever the heck you want if and when it harms others. I can't drive on the left side of the street, even if I really, really want to, because to allow me to do so puts everyone else in danger. 49 states think prostitution does sufficient harm to others to render it unallowable. It's a far more subtle harm than a head-on collision, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

sublime311

08-09-2005, 09:33 AM

It seems archane that the government should have any say at all in how I chose to run my sex life.
IMO, legalized = standardized = government say..

I would support legalized prostitution as long as there were strict standards in place. "Just legalizing" it would do nothing to improve the "culture", and therefore, societal ills of the profession.

That said, even if legalized, we would still have the "$10 crack whores" who would probably not qualify for positions (no pun) in legal brothels. So, they would continue to operate as is - meaning they would still be working illegally. It's not the Heidi Fleiss joints causing the problems - it's the street prostitution.

Katie&Micah

08-09-2005, 09:34 AM

hockeybrat

08-09-2005, 09:41 AM

I think it should be legalized as some of the ladies earlier had pointed out. It makes for a safer environment as it is being regulated. That doesn't mean that I condone it or want to aspire to be one.

Legalizing = health standards & tax $$

greenbunny

08-09-2005, 09:51 AM

Yes! In this sense morality extends to basic rules required to keep society running. If my morality permits murder, should my morality dictate how you live your life?

This isn't a valid comparison. Murder creates a victim. A person visits a prostitute by choice. Unless you want to argue that a john is being raped, which I find ridiculous, this won't fly.

The only phrase I remember from civics class is "your rights stop where another person's rights start". I am against all laws that legislate what a person can do with his or her own body.

It is unfortunate that there tend to be harmful side effects to certain behaviors, such as the possibility of STDs from prostitutes. But if you are making that choice, you take that risk. Just as I think people should have the right to smoke and give themselves cancer, I think they should have the right to visit a prostitute and risk disease if they so choose.

Now, that said, if they are ever to put another person at risk of harm--such as contracting an STD from said prostitute and passing it to an unwitting partner--then they should be prosecuted for attempted murder. (This is where the other's person's right are starting, and yours are stopping.) To extend the metaphor to my previous example about smoking, that is also why I feel public smoking regulations are appropriate--because that act may harm those who chose to not engage in that behavior.

artist

08-09-2005, 09:52 AM

I think that eventually your views of sex go back to your views of religion.

I'd be interested to know if there is anyone with strong ties to religion that thinks prostitution SHOULD be legalized. The same goes for the other side.. if you don't have strong ties to religion or don't believe in God, do you still think that prostitution is morally wrong?

Definitely not a "fundie", but sure, I do believe in God. I consider myself a spiritual person. Officially I am Christian. Jesus loved women. Jesus told people not to stone the prostitute.

artist

08-09-2005, 09:55 AM

That said, even if legalized, we would still have the "$10 crack whores" who would probably not qualify for positions (no pun) in legal brothels. So, they would continue to operate as is - meaning they would still be working illegally. It's not the Heidi Fleiss joints causing the problems - it's the street prostitution.

Well sure.

Then again, I am one of those who thinks we should legalize it all, prostitution, drugs, etc.

lawyerlee

08-09-2005, 09:56 AM

I'm in favor of legalized prostitution *if* it comes with rigid standards and taxation AND can be shown to be more effective at preventing disease and abuse of women than outlawing prostitution.

gayle

08-09-2005, 10:04 AM

ITA Diana.

BTB

08-09-2005, 10:09 AM

Murder creates a victim. A person visits a prostitute by choice. Unless you want to argue that a john is being raped, which I find ridiculous, this won't fly.

Yes, the john visits by choice, and IMWV, the prostitute becomes a victim. So does the john's wife/girlfriend/kids. Again, just because the harm is not immediately in-your-face, like with a murder, doesn't mean it's not there.

Jesus loved women. Jesus told people not to stone the prostitute.

Right on! And then he told the prostitute to go forth and sin no more. Not that there was any chance she'd live a sinless life from that point onward - He knew that. But that doesn't mean she shouldn't try.

Jaycee

08-09-2005, 10:14 AM

Right on! And then he told the prostitute to go forth and sin no more. Not that there was any chance she'd live a sinless life from that point onward - He knew that. But that doesn't mean she shouldn't try.

It will be a sad day though when our laws are governed by the bible.

IrisHope

08-09-2005, 10:19 AM

give Bush more time....

Jaycee

08-09-2005, 10:23 AM

give Bush more time....

We've got at least 5 weeks :D

Katie&Micah

08-09-2005, 10:23 AM

It will be a sad day though when our laws are governed by the bible.

ITA!

hockeybrat

08-09-2005, 10:26 AM

It will be a sad day though when our laws are governed by the bible.

I agree. :(

thedoorchick

08-09-2005, 10:26 AM

Maybe we need to back up a little bit - I don't recall anyone saying that laws should be governed by the Bible....

:confused:

msnicolea

08-09-2005, 10:26 AM

I'm not sure why a distincition is being made between "$10 crack whores" and "heidi fleiss types." What's the difference? You think tbat becasue Heidi Fleiss is a madame and not a pimp, that somehow her transgressions are less negative?

I agree with Diana-I am for legalizing and regulsating it ONLY if there is evidence that this will somehow promote and enhance the health and safety of sex workers. I don not subscribe to the "they are going to do it anyway so let's make it legal" school of thought.

Elizabeth

08-09-2005, 10:27 AM

It will be a sad day though when our laws are governed by the bible.

They already are. Where do you think the majority of our laws and societal mores come from? The commandment to not commit adultery is one that people now and historically take liberties with ... but the taboos against murder, lying, etc. are from Judeo-Christian morality. A lot of the "rules" our society has internalized and takes for granted are right out of the Bible.

artist

08-09-2005, 10:28 AM

Yes, the john visits by choice, and IMWV, the prostitute becomes a victim.

Right. I do agree with that.

Right on! And then he told the prostitute to go forth and sin no more. Not that there was any chance she'd live a sinless life from that point onward - He knew that. But that doesn't mean she shouldn't try.

I was merely answering the earlier question of whether or not I considered myself at all religious. And I do. Not an extremist, but certainly spiritual.

BTB

08-09-2005, 10:28 AM

Jaycee, Artist had just identified herself as Christian, and mentioned the story of the prostitute. My comment was for her.

Jaycee

08-09-2005, 10:29 AM

Well the conversation did start getting into the whole WWJD talk. Regardless, I'm just saying it would be a sad day..thats all.

Irish Elf

08-09-2005, 10:30 AM

Whether or not there will be a black market should have no bearing on the lagality of a subject; for every legal action there is a illegal one waiting to happen.

People speed, which is against the law. SHould we ban all cars?
People steal and sell organs on the BM; should we ban organ donation?
Bootleg copies and early copies of Harry Poetter were released before it was legal. Should all booksellers or harry Potter fans be banned?

I'm sorry but if something exists and will continue to exist regardless orf anyone's moral stance, why not make it so that it's as safe as possible and tax it so it will generate money that can be used for the good of society (schools, roads, etc)?

And for the record I consider myself a Christian.

PS - I think there are a lot of legal thinks that are immoral in my book.

camberne

08-09-2005, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by BTB:
Yes, the john visits by choice, and IMWV, the prostitute becomes a victim. So does the john's wife/girlfriend/kids. Again, just because the harm is not immediately in-your-face, like with a murder, doesn't mean it's not there.This is assuming that all men who go to prostitutes are married, dating or have kids. There are men who go to prostitutes because they don't have a girlfriends/wives. Also, the men who DO have girlfriends/wives/kids and are going to prostitues are the lesser of the evil (in my opinion) than having a full-blown affair, which is both physical and emotional. I think that either would devastate me, but I think I would be more devastated to find out that my husband had an affair with someone than to find out that he purchased sex one night.

BTB

08-09-2005, 10:31 AM

No, it wasn't WWJD. Artist mentioned that Jesus loved women, and saved an adultress from an angry mob.

If we're going to drag Him into this, I wanted to mention that He didn't then follow up by saying, "So, uh, okay then. Since you're going to sin anyway, have at it!"

BTB

08-09-2005, 10:32 AM

People speed, which is against the law. SHould we ban all cars?
People steal and sell organs on the BM; should we ban organ donation?
Bootleg copies and early copies of Harry Poetter were released before it was legal. Should all booksellers or harry Potter fans be banned?

Should we abolish speed limits, property laws, and copyright laws to deal with the problem?

artist

08-09-2005, 10:32 AM

Well the conversation did start getting into the whole WWJD talk. Regardless, I'm just saying it would be a sad day..thats all.

It's true. I did bring up Jesus. But mostly because someone wondered how our religious beliefs related at all to our views on legalizing prostitution.

And I do agree it's a "sad day" and I also think that day is already here as we are in the midst of the Bush administration.

BTB

08-09-2005, 10:33 AM

This is assuming that all men who go to prostitutes are married, dating or have kids.

Of course. But even if he doesn't have a family, he still victimizes the prostitute.

Jaycee

08-09-2005, 10:35 AM

If we're going to drag Him into this, I wanted to mention that He didn't then follow up by saying, "So, uh, okay then. Since you're going to sin anyway, have at it!"
I'm not saying to sin anyway, but since this is the US and is comprised of people of all religions, everyone won't agree on what a sin is or isn't. Why does one religions bible get to dictate what is considered a sin and therfore the laws of an entire country?

artist

08-09-2005, 10:35 AM

Of course. But even if he doesn't have a family, he still victimizes the prostitute.

And I do agree with that, but that's a big reason why I believe it ought to be legal...to make the prostitute less of a victim to both the john and the pimp.

dionysia

08-09-2005, 10:40 AM

What is it about the act that makes the prostitute the john's victim? I understand being seeing as a victim of a pimp, if she has one, since from what I understand many pimps use drugs and abuse as a means to manipulate and control their 'girls.'

But what's to then take the thought that the prostitute is the john's victim and then extend it to other consensual sexual situations? Are all women victims of men? (see "All sex is rape.")

Are the prostitutes in Nevada and Holland still victims?

Di

lml41981

08-09-2005, 10:41 AM

As a Christian, no, I don't wish to see prostitution legalized.

As a citizen of a country that allows freedom of religion and separation of church and state, I try not to allow my Christian beliefs to dictate my political opinions.

I do think prostitution should be legalized, regulated and taxed. I also believe G-d will judge those who wish to partake in legal or illegal prostitution. Just cause it is legal doesn't make it holy and ok by G-d. ;)

I also never really understood how porn stars were not considered prostitutes. Oh, and I watched a Dateline interview of a porn star (Bella Donna) awhile back where she talked about being raped and beaten by costars and forced to do sex acts that she had never agreed to do (her first porn film had her doing anal sex for her very first time...and she hadn't agreed to it). So, I don't think legalization will really solve the problems...but there needs to be strict regulation, including surveillance cameras in the brothel bedrooms so the women can be monitored for safety.

IrisHope

08-09-2005, 10:41 AM

Jaycee, ITA.

IrisHope

08-09-2005, 10:43 AM

I can't get past the fact that porn stars make money by having sex. Is it because the "john" isn't giving her the money? She's having sex for money isn't she?

artist

08-09-2005, 10:44 AM

What is it about the act that makes the prostitute the john's victim? I understand being seeing as a victim of a pimp, if she has one, since from what I understand many pimps use drugs and abuse as a means to manipulate and control their 'girls.'

But what's to then take the thought that the prostitute is the john's victim and then extend it to other consensual sexual situations? Are all women victims of men? (see "All sex is rape.")

Sometimes the john DOES beat the prostitute.

Are the prostitutes in Nevada and Holland still victims?

In my opinion, not so much.

hockeybrat

08-09-2005, 10:47 AM

Are the prostitutes in Nevada and Holland still victims?

I am not sure about Holland but (and this may totally be off subject) have caught an episode or 2 of Cathouse on HBO and they don't appear to be victims to me. (disclaimer: It is a TV show so I am sure they don't show EVERYTHING)

BTB

08-09-2005, 10:50 AM

I'm not saying to sin anyway, but since this is the US and is comprised of people of all religions, everyone won't agree on what a sin is or isn't. Why does one religions bible get to dictate what is considered a sin and therfore the laws of an entire country?

Jaycee, I completely agree with you. I am vehemently against any one religion's "book" being the basis for new laws - though the Bible is already, as Elizabeth posted, pretty well codified.

I think I did a poor job making my intent with that reference clear from the beginning. I was never attempting to say "and THAT'S why prostitution should be illegal." It was an aside, to one person who had indicated she shared some of my beliefs, in reference to the fact that earlier we had discussed whether "people are gonna do it anyway" is a good reason to legalize something.

It seems as soon as the words "Bible" and "sin" get said, people get all nervous thinking I want my very own pastor to be named the next President. :D

gayle

08-09-2005, 10:50 AM

"Are the prostitutes in Nevada and Holland still victims?"

No, I don't believe they are victims. I believe when it is legalized it enables it to be about a personal choice for income. And, as income, it needs to be taxed as such. Everyone then benefits (whether or not you morally approve) by the regulated health practice, income and taxation.

I am curious why there is an assumption that every prostitute is a victim?

Some, I would venture to say quite a few, are not driven into it by an out-of control drug habit, low self esteem, or the lack of ability to find a job.

Some consciously choose this, for a very specific reason.

I personally know a gal ( a High School friend of my sister's) who when she graduated from Junior college, knew she would never be able to afford to go to medical school.

She consciously CHOSE to go to Nevada at age 22 to work in the legalized prostitution industry. She was able to obtain her BS during the same time she worked in the sex industry, from UNLV, and shortly thereafter, was able to COMPLETLY pay her way throgh her grad scholl medical studies at Stanford University, one of the top med schools in the country.

She is now a surgeon in the state of Washington, and at the age of 42 is very happily married, with two children and a thriving career.

Certainly, this field would not be for everyone. I personally couldn't do it, but some can comfortably and should be protected by law as in any other trade.

BTB

08-09-2005, 10:53 AM

lawyerlee

08-09-2005, 10:54 AM

I don't have any statistics at hand, but I have read that women who work as prostitutes are more likely to have been sexually abused or raped than the general population of women. That is bothersome to me. If a women is "choosing" to engage in a behavior because she has been victimized in the past, she is continuing to be victimized in the present, in my opinion.

lawyerlee

08-09-2005, 10:56 AM

Do we think most girls, after turning their first trick, sit and count their money and say "Yeah! I can't wait to do that again!!!" :confused:
Sure. And then maybe one night Richard Gere pulls up in a sports car and sweeps her off her feet.

Exactly. It's not a rational choice in most circumstances, which shows that there is something very sad going on in the woman's life that she would go down that path.

Hangin'in

08-09-2005, 10:57 AM

I don't understand why people assume that a woman selling her body for money is a "victim". If I was selling sex for money, and it was a job... and that's what I thought of it as... a job where I could make a whole lot more money than what I make working where I do now... How is it that I become the "victim"? I am aware of my choices, I understand that I am choosing to work in the field of sex for money... how does that make me anymore of a victim than working for the company I work for now?

I have never understood why people against the *sex* industry always bring up the victim issue. I know women who take their clothes off and dance on a stage for money... and very rarely is there a conversation that DOES NOT end up with this whole *victim* issue. I'm not talking about the drug addicts and 10$ crack whores... they are victims.... but I don't think they are victims of prostitution... I think they are victims of other choices they have made in their lives to get them to that point.

I was raised Christian, and even though I am not a member of a Church, I am very spiritual.... I know that the *sex industry* is not a career choice I would make, but like someone else said, I wouldn't choose to work at mcdonalds, or ditch digging or landscaping.... not because I think they are immoral or that i would go to hell for working in any of those industries... it's just not for me.

artist

08-09-2005, 10:57 AM

In the first few pages, we all said things like, "we're not saying it's good, moral, and healthy... we're just saying legalize it so it's less dangerous for the women". Right?

What does it say as a society if women's bodies are officially for sale? It's a cultural shift from this being something that just isn't ok, to something that's just up to the individual, no biggie. But is it really up to the individual? Sure, there's anecdotes of some smart, able, empowered woman choosing to make big bucks, but do we all really believe that's representative of most prostitutes? Do we think most girls, after turning their first trick, sit and count their money and say "Yeah! I can't wait to do that again!!!" :confused:

When have women's bodies NOT been for sale? Really?

-Prostitution has been around in some form since the beginning of time
-What did marriage used to be? Well, you essentially got sold off against your will.
-What is the advertising industry? Look at any magazine. Watch a t.v. commercial. Sex sells.

Would you prefer that women be covered head to toe because it might tempt men?

Katie&Micah

08-09-2005, 11:01 AM

It's a cultural shift from this being something that just isn't ok, to something that's just up to the individual, no biggie. But is it really up to the individual?
Unless someone is physically forcing her (general) to do it remains her choice. Whether or not you think it's a good choice has nothing to do with the fact that she made the choice.

She's not a victim because she made a poor choice (in the mind of the ppl who are opposed to prostitution). I think the term victim is being used a little too loosely.

BTB

08-09-2005, 11:04 AM

So the logic is that

a) women are objectified in other ways so
b) we should just legally recognize a current form of it?

Jaycee

08-09-2005, 11:04 AM

She's not a victim because she made a poor choice (in the mind of the ppl who are opposed to prostitution). I think the term victim is being used a little too loosely.
Me too! I feel like a victim everytime I have to work late hours to meet a deadline. Should my job be outlawed?

Katie&Micah

08-09-2005, 11:05 AM

[QUOTE=Hangin'in]I don't understand why people assume that a woman selling her body for money is a "victim". If I was selling sex for money, and it was a job... and that's what I thought of it as... a job where I could make a whole lot more money than what I make working where I do now... How is it that I become the "victim"? I am aware of my choices, I understand that I am choosing to work in the field of sex for money... how does that make me anymore of a victim than working for the company I work for now?

I have never understood why people against the *sex* industry always bring up the victim issue. I know women who take their clothes off and dance on a stage for money... and very rarely is there a conversation that DOES NOT end up with this whole *victim* issue. I'm not talking about the drug addicts and 10$ crack whores... they are victims.... but I don't think they are victims of prostitution... I think they are victims of other choices they have made in their lives to get them to that point.QUOTE]

Thank you for saying it better than I could..

BTB

08-09-2005, 11:06 AM

Unless someone is physically forcing her (general) to do it remains her choice.

It's a choice in the sense that no one's putting a gun to her head. But if you're starving and someone says "Hey, baby, $20 for a little half-and-half?" how much choice do you really have?

Laws protect the weak. Let's give that woman a better way to feed herself, instead of turning our backs and saying, "We won't prosecute either of you. Now give us $5 for taxes and, hey, use a condom."

Katie&Micah

08-09-2005, 11:07 AM

So the logic is that

a) women are objectified in other ways so
b) we should just legally recognize a current form of it?

The thinking is that many people don't agree that women are being objectified by prostitution.

BTB

08-09-2005, 11:08 AM

Me too! I feel like a victim everytime I have to work late hours to meet a deadline. Should my job be outlawed?

It's been pointed out that most prostitutes have abuse and/or rape in their backgrounds. The ability to see their worth in light of sex and their desirability to men might not be what it ought to be. Cavalierly comparing whether they're hampered by sad backgrounds to whether you like or don't like overtime isn't even close.

lawyerlee

08-09-2005, 11:09 AM

It's a choice in the sense that no one's putting a gun to her head. But if you're starving and someone says "Hey, baby, $20 for a little half-and-half?" how much choice do you really have?
Exactly!

Because when someone says she wouldn't work at McDonalds or dig ditches because that is her choice, you have to acknowledge that you are in a fortunate position if you have a choice. I would venture to guess that it isn't anyone's dream to work at McDonald's anymore than it is to be a prostitute, but life doesn't always work out the way people wish it would.

Katie&Micah

08-09-2005, 11:11 AM

It's a choice in the sense that no one's putting a gun to her head. But if you're starving and someone says "Hey, baby, $20 for a little half-and-half?" how much choice do you really have?

Laws protect the weak. Let's give that woman a better way to feed herself, instead of turning our backs and saying, "We won't prosecute either of you. Now give us $5 for taxes and, hey, use a condom."

Let's see.. her choice is to say no if she doesn't feel comfortable with the situation. Then she can hike her butt down to a church or shelter for some food and help finding a place to stay. She can do what all the other people who are starving but AREN'T prostitute do. You find another way to live.

The only thing that happens when you make it illegal is that now she goes to jail and she probably passes on some std's to hundreds of other people because no one is telling her to be safe.

BTB

08-09-2005, 11:13 AM

Then she can hike her butt down to a church or shelter for some food and help finding a place to stay.

If only it were that easy. What if she's used up her quota for the winter?

The only thing that happens when you make it illegal is that now she goes to jail and she probably passes on some std's to hundreds of other people because no one is telling her to be safe.

I'm sure this isn't true everywhere but here, the johns are arrested, the prostitutes aren't.

greenbunny

08-09-2005, 11:14 AM

Whether she was abused or not, selling her body is still her choice.

If you're so interested in the murder metaphor, why aren't you also pitying the murderers who were mistreated as children? Statistically they are many.

IrisHope

08-09-2005, 11:15 AM

Wow did I pick a hot topic or what?

Okay, back to our regular scheduled programming...

thedoorchick

08-09-2005, 11:15 AM

When have women's bodies NOT been for sale? Really?

-Prostitution has been around in some form since the beginning of time
-What did marriage used to be? Well, you essentially got sold off against your will.
-What is the advertising industry? Look at any magazine. Watch a t.v. commercial. Sex sells.

Would you prefer that women be covered head to toe because it might tempt men?

I don't really understand this logic.

- I agree; prostitution has always been around; however, that doesn't make the fact that it exists any less disturbing. And it's more disturbing for the government to officially condone it.

- I agree again; but that is not marriage today. I don't agree with the "old" notion of marriage, but that simply isn't relevant in America in the here and now.

- Advertising/TV/etc. are pictures, not bodies. I have a lot of opinions on how overtly sexual advertising, TV, and movies objectify women, and I don't agree with those any more than I do prostitution, but one thing at a time. I don't think I responded to your previous question, but if porn was illegal, that would be fine with me.

lawyerlee

08-09-2005, 11:15 AM

Let's see.. her choice is to say no if she doesn't feel comfortable with the situation. Then she can hike her butt down to a church or shelter for some food and help finding a place to stay. She can do what all the other people who are starving but AREN'T prostitute do. You find another way to live.

The only thing that happens when you make it illegal is that now she goes to jail and she probably passes on some std's to hundreds of other people because no one is telling her to be safe.
I'm not arguing it should be illegal. But I guess I need to reiterate that she has probably been sexually victimized in the past, so why shouldn't she use her body for money? She probably doesn't value herself anyway. And that's really sad.

lawyerlee

08-09-2005, 11:16 AM

IrisHope

08-09-2005, 11:17 AM

But what is the government doing for these women now?

lawyerlee

08-09-2005, 11:18 AM

But what is the government doing for these women now?
Putting them in jail.

Katie&Micah

08-09-2005, 11:18 AM

If only it were that easy. What if she's used up her quota for the winter?

So what does everyone else do that isn't a prostitute?

greenbunny

08-09-2005, 11:19 AM

Because they're hurting other people. But I'm not interested in it, so whatever.

Yes. That was my earlier point. I was saying the difference is that a prostitute's choice is about her body, and a murderer's choice is about the victim's body.

But I was more directing that to BTB.

Katie&Micah

08-09-2005, 11:20 AM

so putting them in jail does nothing except they lose income for a few days. i can't see how that would help someone who was "forced" into a life of prostitution and is trying to get out..

IrisHope

08-09-2005, 11:20 AM

So the government is putting these women in jail instead of treatment. I mean really, if the gov't is so interested in not making these women victims why aren't they helping them?

lawyerlee

08-09-2005, 11:22 AM

So the government is putting these women in jail instead of treatment. I mean really, if the gov't is so interested in not making these women victims why aren't they helping them?
Well, as evidenced by a lot of the opinions in this thread, many people believe these women aren't victims at all. I'm sure a lot of legislators believe they are immoral people who don't deserve anything unless they get their shit together.

Katie&Micah

08-09-2005, 11:22 AM

maybe the government doesn't agree that they are victims but rather women who are making a choice to do something that is illegal..

Chris'slady

08-09-2005, 11:23 AM

WOW, i leave for an hour and this place is kickin....

gayle

08-09-2005, 11:23 AM

"- I agree; prostitution has always been around; however, that doesn't make the fact that it exists any less disturbing. And it's more disturbing for the government to officially condone it."

Legaliztion and controlling an industry via regulation and taxation, is not necessarily "condoneing" it.

For example there are a heck of alot of business practices that the government has legalized, but many in government do not condone. I can think of issues in relation to the environment being high on that list.

With alot of fields and the question of whether or not to legalize, IMHO, it isn't about whether or not one condones it or not. You can disagree with a law, but still see the economic and safety reasons for passing that law.

I think too many things are decided in this country based on some sort of moral stance, rather than a stance of practicality and safety. Just my opinion.

Katie&Micah

08-09-2005, 11:24 AM

Well, as evidenced by a lot of the opinions in this thread, many people believe these women aren't victims at all. They believe they are immoral people who don't deserve anything unless they get their shit together.

Not quite right.. I think that many of us believe that they are not victims or immoral. I think they are making a choice that they have a right to make.

BTB

08-09-2005, 11:27 AM

If you're so interested in the murder metaphor, why aren't you also pitying the murderers who were mistreated as children? Statistically they are many.

In what way is my "pity" for prostitutes changing what I'm arguing is the central crux of the issue - morality? Selling sex is wrong. It's bad for society. Don't do it.

Then we talked about issues of empowerment, and I said I don't think it's so empowering - but that's not why I want it to continue being illegal. I want it to be illegal because I think it's bad for society, whether or not it's also bad for the individual.

So what does everyone else do that isn't a prostitute?

They don't have an easy time finding food and shelter either. Some die because they went without. Others find ways to scrape what they need that don't involve prostitution - some legal, some illegal.

Hangin'in

08-09-2005, 11:29 AM

I can hardly keep up with this thread, and I'm sure some one has already said this or will have said this by the time I get through typing....

Because when someone says she wouldn't work at McDonalds or dig ditches because that is her choice, you have to acknowledge that you are in a fortunate position if you have a choice. I would venture to guess that it isn't anyone's dream to work at McDonald's anymore than it is to be a prostitute, but life doesn't always work out the way people wish it would.

I agree that I am fortunate to be able to choose which industry that I work in, but this statement makes it sound like prostitutes don't have a choice in what they do.... that if they are hungry or don't have a job then this is the choice that life throws them, and to me that sounds just as ludacris (sp?) as someone robbing a house or a conveneince store tries to justify their actions with the excuse of not having any money or needing to buy diapers for the baby.

Yes, sometimes life sucks, and throws you a curveball, but even then I still have a choice as to my response and/or reaction to the shitty curveball life has thrown me.

thedoorchick

08-09-2005, 11:30 AM

Gayle, I see your point, and I suppose we will have to agree to disagree.

I feel that legalizing something, regardless of the practical/economic reasons behind it, is condoning it.

I have similar feelings on the issue of legalizing marijuana (obviously that is outside the scope of this thread).

Chris'slady

08-09-2005, 11:31 AM

I believe that a woman or anyone should not be hurt in the act of anything no matter what they portray, but do i think they should be out their selling there body! NO, they can get a job, doing other things waitress bartending, etc flipping burgers. i think prostitution is the lowest resort and nobody should hit that. their is welfare, wic all of those things, that is one of the things the govt, is doign to keep single low income mothers off the street.

Chris'slady

08-09-2005, 11:32 AM

Yes, sometimes life sucks, and throws you a curveball, but even then I still have a choice as to my response and/or reaction to the shitty curveball life has thrown me.

ITA

lawyerlee

08-09-2005, 11:36 AM

Yes, sometimes life sucks, and throws you a curveball, but even then I still have a choice as to my response and/or reaction to the shitty curveball life has thrown me.
Well, then I guess you can applaud yourself for being morally superior. But the reality is that there will always be people in this position, and to assume that it is a choice made out of, well, I don't know what people think the choice is made out of. Greed? Laziness? Whatever, may be a vast oversimplification. Perhaps it is nothing more than an unfortunate combination of past experiences and present circumstances that align and lead someone to think, "what the hell."

IrisHope

08-09-2005, 11:38 AM

I also think that suicide should be legal. If it's not hurting anyone it shouldn't be illegal.

ETA suicide when people are very sick.

artist

08-09-2005, 11:46 AM

artist

08-09-2005, 11:53 AM

I also think that suicide should be legal. If it's not hurting anyone it shouldn't be illegal.

ETA suicide when people are very sick.

I agree, except for the part that it's not hurting anyone. Suicide usually is real painful for the survivors, but making suicide illegal is pretty stupid in my opinion.

Jaycee

08-09-2005, 11:53 AM

I agree, except for the part that it's not hurting anyone. Suicide usually is real painful for the survivors, but making suicide illegal is pretty stupid in my opinion.
Oh please please please I beg...let's not go here right now. :(

lawyerlee

08-09-2005, 11:57 AM

Oh please please please I beg...let's not go here right now. :(
Yeah, I think we should start another thread if we want to discuss that subject. I'm open to it, but I think it might be going to far off course for this discussion. :)

IrisHope

08-09-2005, 11:58 AM

Okay. I was just explaining how I think things that we do to ourselves should be legal.

lawyerlee

08-09-2005, 12:02 PM

Okay. I was just explaining how I think things that we do to ourselves should be legal.
I know, and that's totally cool. Examples are great, I just didn't want to get too far off course and off on a topic that seemed to be upsetting to some people who were interested in the prostitution topic. It can be such a mine field for many of us. :)

Hangin'in

08-09-2005, 12:04 PM

Well, then I guess you can applaud yourself for being morally superior. But the reality is that there will always be people in this position, and to assume that it is a choice made out of, well, I don't know what people think the choice is made out of. Greed? Laziness? Whatever, may be a vast oversimplification.

I think that is a snarky thing to say. I have never implied that I was morally superior, nor did I ever make any assumption as to why the choice is made. I simply stated that it is a choice. And in my previous posts, my *what ifs* were referencing those who consider it a job and income level issue... and specifically said that I was NOT referring to the *downtrodden*, and that entire post was referring to the *victimization* automatically associated in reference to women and the sex industry, making an informed, adult decision regarding their income level.

lawyerlee

08-09-2005, 12:05 PM

I think that is a snarky thing to say. I have never implied that I was morally superior, nor did I ever make any assumption as to why the choice is made. I simply stated that it is a choice. And in my previous posts, my *what ifs* were referencing those who consider it a job and income level issue... and specifically said that I was NOT referring to the *downtrodden*, and that entire post was referring to the *victimization* automatically associated in reference to women and the sex industry, making an informed, adult decision regarding their income level.
I didn't mean it in a snarky way. It is my opinion that you are taking a morally superior stance. I'm not meaning to be rude in any way.

BTB

08-09-2005, 12:19 PM

Not directed at anyone in particular:

I think there is a certain superiority in saying that someone down on their luck isn't coerced into prostitution... that like someone in more fortunate circumstances, they should just yank themselves up by their bootstraps and get a real job, hike down to the homeless shelter, etc.

What is inside a person is crucial and can be enough even in the most terrible circumstances. And that's fantastic, truly. But there are those without the fortitude to overcome bad beginnings, and I don't want them to just be passed on by because hey, "they chose it".

If my personal utopia came to pass, then maybe I'd be okay with unequal outcome (in my utopia, each and every child would have preventive health care, nutritious food, gentle disciplined caregiving, stimulating education, and safe clean housing. Then all adults are on their own and can do whatever they want.)

Hangin'in

08-09-2005, 12:20 PM

I didn't mean it in a snarky way. It is my opinion that you are taking a morally superior stance. I'm not meaning to be rude in any way.

I most definately do NOT consider myself morally superior in any way. I certainly have no reason to consider myself superior in any way. I just think people should be responsible for the choices they make, and claim them. I, myself, have made some choices others wouldn't agree with, but they were MY choices. If those choices had been to work in the *sex industry*, I wouldn't want someone to automatically associate those choices with being a victim.

lawyerlee

08-09-2005, 12:22 PM

BTB

08-09-2005, 12:26 PM

If those choices had been to work in the *sex industry*, I wouldn't want someone to automatically associate those choices with being a victim.

That's great for someone who had other choices. If you - direct you, not the generic you that's so popular - made that choice, with true (not theoretic) ability to take other routes, I won't buy your video, but I'll be happy for you that you're happy for you. :)

My beef is that I don't think this is the scenario most women who end up becoming prostitutes begin from. I'm back to imagining that girl/teenager/woman who, after turning her first trick gleefully counts her dough and is happy, secure, and feeling powerful - I just can't see it.

artist

08-09-2005, 12:29 PM

It's interesting because I find myself agreeing with a lot of what BTB is saying, yet I come to a totally opposite conclusion about whether or not it should be legal.

lawyerlee

08-09-2005, 12:32 PM

It's interesting because I find myself agreeing with a lot of what BTB is saying, yet I come to a totally opposite conclusion about whether or not it should be legal.
Is that because you have a different idea of how people would be the safest? Or something else?

wendalah

08-09-2005, 12:33 PM

I haven't read all the responses. Here's my response to the original question of what do I think of legalized prostitution:

I'm torn on this one.

--As a capitalist I say, if there's a market and someone who wants to supply the market, fine. Who am I to tell some woman she can't sell her body?

--On the other hand, I get irked by prostitution because to me it feeds into age-old stereotypes about how men and women view sex. Sex is a commodity rather than a necessity to women; sex is something to be sold rather than enjoyed by both partners; men need it so badly they must pay for it (and women don't need it in the same way); you can't find a woman out there who just plain likes sex and will do it for free (you can--and I would say pretty easily).

I know this sounds odd but if there were an equal number of men selling their bodies I'd feel better about it.

IrisHope

08-09-2005, 12:35 PM

Wendalah, I think you just summed it up for me too.

Jaycee

08-09-2005, 12:38 PM

I know this sounds odd but if there were an equal number of men selling their bodies I'd feel better about it.
I'm all for equal opportunity ;) This just made me think of an old Sat night live skit called "Fred Garvin...Male prostitute" anyone else remember that??

villanelle75

08-09-2005, 12:40 PM

I guess I still get stuck at the point where we decide that having sex with someone for cash is unpleasant. I'm not trying to be difficult, I swear. But most of the comments in this thread take for granted that it's an awful, icky thing to have to do, and I'm just not sure wy that's the case. It certainly is now, but I think that's more because it's dangerous and illegal, and because the illegality leads to more dangers (pimps, etc.) and to being forced to work in dark alleys and car backseats and filthy motels willing to rent by the hour. But take those factors away and you have a brothel where women are checked for health, required to use condoms (and the men interested in using their clean, regulated, and legal services will have to use condoms as well), covered by typical working rules and codes, and I just don't get what makes this such an unfortuate thing that we should pity anyone who choses to do.

Just because most of us (myself included) wouldn't chose to have sex for money, why do we automatically place that judgement onto the act itself and suddenly consider it something we have to save others from, simply because it isn't the path we chose to walk? We have a personal distaste for it, so it must be wrong or a horrific experience for anyone? I don't get that.

I don't want it to be the only choice that a sexually abused girl or a single mom with no job skills has available. I also don't want those women's only choice to be working three fast food jobs to make ends meet, but that doesn't mean I want to outlaw fast food.

Jaycee

08-09-2005, 12:44 PM

Very good points villanelle75.

wendalah

08-09-2005, 12:45 PM

I just think that if sex is going to be something people are willing to pay money for, women should start taking advantage of it too. Think about how many women complain their husbands/boyfriends don't know how to make them O. What if there was a place where you could get quick anonymous oral sex with a guaranteed orgasm for 40 bucks or whatever? Women should really think about this stuff. I bet there'd be a market.

gayle

08-09-2005, 12:47 PM

Great post Villanelle75!

irish74

08-09-2005, 12:51 PM

Interesting observation, as I was reading the last 15 pages I kept thinking, but there aren't only female prostitutes, granted location plays in to this quite a bit, but I reckon I've seen at least as many males on street corners etc as I have women.

Personally, I am all for the legalization and regulation of prostitution, anyone who chooses by their own rational choice or as a victim of circumstances would have better working conditions and more safety both for themselves as well as the safety of the customers. I feel incredibly compassionate for anyone who is doing this for a living due to feeling like they have no choice but should they be doing this, at least then they would be able to stay disease free and hopefully not be the victim of abuse.

Whether or not prostitution is or is not moral doesn't come into play here for me. While it is not something that I choose to do, it doesn't make it wrong for the next person in my opinion. I don't understand the difference between someone charging cash for sex and a woman who keeps a boyfriend/husband/whatever sexually satisfied in return for financial security and why society seems to make one a crime and the other no big deal.

After all, it is the oldest profession and it's not going anywhere so basically we have the choice to have it go on like it is now, or to go with the Nevada & Amsterdamn models, which in my opinion are clearly the better, safer choice.

PG-rated

08-09-2005, 12:51 PM

I don't have a lot new to add, but I agree with almost everything BTB and lawyerlee have said. I truly understand the points made by those who are pro-legalization (especially Gayle, who's made very thoughtful comments), but at the end of the day, I believe very strongly that some things shouldn't be for sale, and sexual intercourse is one of them. I do believe it weakens our society to turn it into a saleable commodity. I realize that it still happens, and has happened since the beginning of time, but I feel we lose something important as a society when we choose to accept its nature as a commodity, rather than fighting against it.

And FTR, I also consider porn stars to be prostitutes.

ETA: I'd also like to point out that, although I'm religious, I don't derive my moral code from the teachings of my religion - in fact, I break with the Church on almost all issues related to sex and sexuality.

LittleFredPunkinHead

08-09-2005, 12:52 PM

IMO- making prostitution illegal in order to protect people from themselves (the johns or the prostitutes) is no way to save our country's "moral fiber."

Laws function best - IMO - as a way of preserving order in a society, as a way of maintaining the rights of the individual. This is why we have laws against murder, robbery, speeding, etc. Laws on morality though - things like prostitution, adultery, simple drug use - are illogical (again, IMO) because truly, you can not legislate morality. And before anyone gives me that "Yes, we can, we do it all the time.." let me explain please.

For a person to have a certain belief as part of their moral set, there has to be some choice involved. If you are unable to make the wrong choice (or if through carrots or sticks the wrong choice has been made too undesirable), then you are also effectively unable to make the right choice. You can do the right thing, but you can't choose to do the right thing.

So. Really, what we are doing when we make laws that are not directly related to individual rights and freedoms, is forcing other members of society to abide by our ideas of morality. That is very different from making society more moral.

Personally, I think that's a big problem. You don't learn by being given the answers. You don't learn if you aren't allowed to make mistakes.

Jaycee

08-09-2005, 12:52 PM

sublime311

08-09-2005, 12:56 PM

What if there was a place where you could get quick anonymous oral sex with a guaranteed orgasm for 40 bucks or whatever? Women should really think about this stuff. I bet there'd be a market.

I dunno.. I think women would rather buy a tool (pun intended) for $40 that will keep doing the job than a one time guaranteed O. We're smarter than men in that way.. Shoot, if I were a man, I would never leave home because I would have so much fun with myself! :D

IrisHope

08-09-2005, 12:58 PM

If there was a demand for male prostitution there would be a supply.

kemaji

08-09-2005, 01:01 PM

LittleFred - I really liked your last post.

artist

08-09-2005, 01:02 PM

wendalah

08-09-2005, 01:05 PM

-

If there was a demand for male prostitution there would be a supply.

See, I think that women are so trained to be like, "ewww! yucky!" about things like this, that there will never be a demand for it until we get rid of that sort of attitude.

Not saying we necessarily need to get rid of that attitude, but I'd like to see women have a more manlike attitude about sex--I think it could do nothing but good.

As for men offering it for free, that was another of my original points. There are tons of women out there who are ready to go at it for free, too. Go to any adult "friend finder" site. Men really don't HAVE to pay for it as long as they are willing to do it with maybe someone not quite that attractive. There's just this archaic attitude ingrained that men are the ones who want it, need it, etc. Whereas it's optional and completely uninvolved for women. THAT annoys me.

IrisHope

08-09-2005, 01:11 PM

I have learned, through conversations with men, that it is much easier for a woman to meet a man and hook up than it is for a man.

edited

wendalah

08-09-2005, 01:11 PM

Another thought to prove this: I just read another article in a women's magazine that explained for the umpteenth time that "men LIKE the way you smell down there! So don't be worried about your odor! Enjoy oral sex!" Jeez louise--it's 2005 and women STILL have to be told to relax about their genitals and enjoying sex? Maybe we NEED an anonymous outlet for sex in order to GET comfortable with ourselves.

wendalah

08-09-2005, 01:12 PM

It is much easier for a woman to meet a man and hook up than it is for a man. There is not much of a need for male prostitutes.

Is it? Have you really explored this?

ETA: I'm not trying to be argumentative--just curious. Are you aware that there is a rather open adult world out there in which men can get laid very easily if they know where to look?

Sorry if I sound out there, but these are things I've thought about and wondered about in an effort to try and dissect why women and men think "differently."

IrisHope

08-09-2005, 01:13 PM

lol no I haven't but I have had many conversations with men about this.

wendalah

08-09-2005, 01:16 PM

yeah, see, I have too, and I've talked to many guys who are amazed that ANYONE would pay for sex. If you are halfway decent, you can go to a bar and probably get laid--either sex--according to a lot of my male friends. It's not really that hard. We just have this social ingrained attitude that men need to pay and women don't want it as badly.

IrisHope

08-09-2005, 01:18 PM

Wend, don't you think there would be men on street corners if there was a demand out there? I'm not saying women NEVER do this I just believe people want to earn a buck and if there was a need, it would be filled.

wendalah

08-09-2005, 01:19 PM

Sorry, I'm taking this thread off track and probably sounding a little weird into the bargain, eh? ;)

wendalah

08-09-2005, 01:19 PM

No, no, I totally agree with you that the demand is not really there. What I'm considering is, if women didn't have a certain social ingrained attitude about sex, there might be more of a demand.

artist

08-09-2005, 01:28 PM

But for now there isn't a demand. I know that I can get hit on just buying groceries. But it's rarer for a guy to get hit on.

wendalah

08-09-2005, 01:34 PM

But it's rarer for a guy to get hit on.

But IS it? Where are we getting this information? Aside from just personal anecdote. Are there not a million women out there who want men, just as men want women?

We are the ones buying <i>He's Just Not That Into You</I> and reading articles about how our gentials don't smell, while men are going to the Bunny Ranch. All I'm saying is, these is two ways of approaching the same problem (finding physical connection) and personally, I think women have the short end of the stick (no pun intended).

When you look at prostitution in this manner (as something only women sell) and start thinking about WHY it's like this...I just think it is interesting from a feminist sort of viewpoint. I honestly think that if we weren't told from day one that sex is this way for women, and this way for men--we'd all have a pretty similar attitude about it and how much we want/need/like it independent of our gender.

lawyerlee

08-09-2005, 01:39 PM

See, I think that women are so trained to be like, "ewww! yucky!" about things like this, that there will never be a demand for it until we get rid of that sort of attitude.

Not saying we necessarily need to get rid of that attitude, but I'd like to see women have a more manlike attitude about sex--I think it could do nothing but good.
Why should women try to be more like men? I think we're fine just how we are. :)

artist

08-09-2005, 01:40 PM

Wendy,

I can see what you’re saying Wendy (about women being more assertive sexually), but didn’t our country go through that with the sexual revolution of the sixties? And what did “free” love get us anyway? Basically just a bunch of hippie chicks in communes doing all the work raising their flower children. (Well, or smoking pot with the other hippies, therefore neglecting the children.)

Yikes! Hope I don’t get flamed for that one, but my point is that I don’t know if I totally agree with the idea of women being totally assertive sexually.

Then again, you make a good point about the fact that it is 2005 and women are still worried about odors down there.

LATER...

Maybe you're right though. A couple of times I've looked at pictures of half naked men. But it's gay porn, 'cause straight porn is kinda dumb.

lawyerlee

08-09-2005, 01:41 PM

I totally agree that it's good to enjoy sex and get pleasure from it, but I don't latch onto the notion that women should have sex like men. I think most of us are wired differently.

wendalah

08-09-2005, 01:42 PM

Am I really that way out there? Seriously. I'm rambling, but these are valid thoughts I hope.

Just food for thought:

What about women who really want to try having sex with another woman. That's a pretty common fantasy...I think we can all agree on that. However, most women who aren't immersed in a lesbian or bi lifestyle don't know how to go about creating this scenario. What if there were an outlet for this, where women could experiment with it strings-free?

NOW before you all go EWWWWWW...just think about it. Even if it's not for you personally, there are women out there who MIGHT appreciate this service...IF the stigma were removed. I'm not saying they are out there right now dying to utilize this service. I'm just saying...they might IF we didn't have these sexual attitude gender boxes.

Right now, no, there wouldn't be a market for it. But I am just wondering...would there be if we as women didn't have such ingrained attitudes about sex? As evidenced by prostitution-as-we-know-it's general parameters?

God knows, men who feel like experimenting with men can pay to do so--and many guys DO. A lot more than women.

Why are men more inclined to this sort of experimentation or commerce than women?

Even if men aren't turning toward experimentation or commerce--isn't it fair to say they have a much easier time dealing with the idea of physical gratification for gratification's sake?

Will women ever as a whole turn more toward a pragmatic physical attitude on sexual behavior?

Lots of questions.

funky$meg

08-09-2005, 01:43 PM

I think as a society, we should adopt a different attitude towards sex. If we make it less taboo, would women feel more comfortable expressing themselves sexually? Would men feel less desire to patronize prostitutes? Or watch porn? Or go to nudie bars?

If, as a society, people change their attitudes in regards to viewing sex as a healthy, natural thing, maybe that would have a profound impact upon prostitution. Maybe sexuality education will be taught in schools at an age appropriate level, and maybe people would be taught to value their sexual selves. Then, perhaps they would value others'...Would that cause the demand for prostitutes to go down?

Of course, there will likely always be those sick individuals who rape people (including prostitutes). If our culture was more attuned to sexuality, maybe those rapists will be dealth with more seriously...Maybe their treatments/ jail sentences would be longer. Maybe law enforcement and the general public would start to believe victimes, especially victims who were sexually assaulted by a friend or relative (which is most cases of sexual assault), and people wouldn't be afraid to tell their stories.

Legalizing prostitution is something I would vote for, but it's true that the act of legalization wouldn't completely eliminate the instances where prostitutes are abused, etc. Perhaps I'm just an idealist, but I think that beyond legalizing prostitution, there are many things that can be done to change how we view/practice sexuality that could benefit our society as a whole.

wendalah

08-09-2005, 01:46 PM

And what did “free” love get us anyway?

Well, it did get us the Pill ;)

wendalah

08-09-2005, 01:48 PM

BTW, in answer to your post, Di, I agree there are advantages to being more selective about sex (as women generally are). I am questioning mostly whether this sort of selectiveness is nature v. nurture though. How would we act if we were trained to objectify sex? I know there are hormonal aspects to consider but I really, really wonder!

artist

08-09-2005, 01:49 PM

See, if I were into that, or swinging for example (no strings attached), I'd probably just look at the ads on the back of the City Pages (free weekly Twin Cities paper). You can learn a lot about people’s fetishes just by reading those ads.

And as for bi-curious women, really, all you’d have to do is go to an art college campus and get drunk enough. No, I never did that, but I’ve been to enough art parties. And yep, been hit on by women but I am way straight. Never kissed a girl, never would.

Oh, and good point about the pill! :D

wendalah

08-09-2005, 01:54 PM

Yeah, but what if you didn't want to go through the annoyance of having to meet someone? I am guessing this is why men like prostitution. They CAN get laid but this is easy and no-strings--pay up and goodbye. If I wanted to experiment with a woman but was intimidated by the idea of experimentation, I think it would be much easier to pay someone for a one-time-only service, then never have to deal with her again.

Jaycee

08-09-2005, 01:57 PM

Never kissed a girl, never would.

yeah sure you wouldn't. ;) j/k :D

wendalah

08-09-2005, 01:58 PM

Believe it or not I have never kissed a girl either!

artist

08-09-2005, 02:01 PM

I see what you're saying, but Wendy, if you were bi-curious, went to an art school party, got wasted, and made out with some girl...would you even remember it the next day anyway? :D

And honestly, if I were into that, I'd probably feel better doing that with someone I knew. But I do see your point.

artist

08-09-2005, 02:03 PM

Believe it or not I have never kissed a girl either!

But, I do remember in HS, taking my BF to this party (with arts high school kids) and one of my gay guy friends asked my permission to kiss my BF! The BF was bi. I was so stunned, I was just like, "Yeah, sure, whatever." VERY surreal thing to witness.

wendalah

08-09-2005, 02:03 PM

Get over here and give me a kiss, Artist. MMMWWWWWAH baby. :D

artist

08-09-2005, 02:04 PM

LOL :D

Not only are you trying to kiss a girl, but cyberkissing? Now THAT'S creepy!

LittleFredPunkinHead

08-09-2005, 02:05 PM

Aren't you making an assumption that there are all these women worrying about how they smell while barely any men do? Or that women don't know where to find sex without strings if they wanted it, while men are free to just go out and buy it, easy as pie?

Honestly, I know just as many men who obsess about how they smell, look naked, blah da blah, as women. And, I know as many sexually repressed men as women. The manifestations of each may not look the same, but they're there.

wendalah

08-09-2005, 02:05 PM

Oh, my husband would just love this. ;)

artist

08-09-2005, 02:05 PM

But, I do remember in HS, taking my BF to this party (with arts high school kids) and one of my gay guy friends asked my permission to kiss my BF! The BF was bi. I was so stunned, I was just like, "Yeah, sure, whatever." VERY surreal thing to witness.

Oh, I must add that same gay guy friend had a crush on the same guy I had a crush on. Needless to say, we apparently had similar taste.

wendalah

08-09-2005, 02:07 PM

Honestly, I know just as many men who obsess about how they smell, look naked, blah da blah, as women. And, I know as many sexually repressed men as women. The manifestations of each may not look the same, but they're there.

Absolutely! So the point is, if men and women are so alike--which I believe we are--then why do men ONLY utilize sex as a physically gratifying commodity (like a can of Coke when one is thirsty)? Why do women overwhelmingly shun whatever advantages there may be to de-emotionalizing (sorry is that a word?) sex?

artist

08-09-2005, 02:09 PM

Get over here and give me a kiss, Artist. MMMWWWWWAH baby. :D

Wendy, I don't kiss Republicans! :D

LittleFredPunkinHead

08-09-2005, 02:09 PM

why do men ONLY utilize sex as a physically gratifying commodity (like a can of Coke when one is thirsty)? Why do women overwhelmingly shun whatever advantages there may be to de-emotionalizing (sorry is that a word?) sex?
I don't believe they do. Those are just two more stereotypes of how things work.

wendalah

08-09-2005, 02:14 PM

Then why is there a market for female prostitutes but virtually none for male prostitutes?

wendalah

08-09-2005, 02:28 PM

I don't kiss Republicans!

Oh, missy, that's what my husband used to say, too ;P

Elizabeth

08-09-2005, 02:41 PM

Male and female sexuality is different. Trying to prove that it's the same is not going to be easy.

Oh, and the pill created the sexual revolution, not the other way around.

wendalah

08-09-2005, 02:50 PM

Trying to prove that it's the same is not going to be easy.

No kidding. Probably nobody ever will be able to do it from a purely biological standpoint as there is so much societal baggage attached to gender roles.

Jaycee

08-09-2005, 03:15 PM

Wow. a simple drive home from work and this is what I come back to find? So have we decided that prostitution should be legalized then? :p

gayle

08-09-2005, 03:27 PM

Diana said
"I think most of us are wired differently."

Oh I dunno bout that one. I am older than most of you and hormones change. 40 plus women have sexual appetites that are not too dissimilar from men in general. It's that big surge of testosterone that hits us somwhere in our 40's.

_________

ssstephanie

08-09-2005, 03:40 PM

No kidding. Probably nobody ever will be able to do it from a purely biological standpoint as there is so much societal baggage attached to gender roles.

Just wanted to add, I like your point of view. It's refreshing on this site. :D

wendalah

08-09-2005, 03:42 PM

Well, thank you! I was beginning to feel like a freak. ;)

ssstephanie

08-09-2005, 03:46 PM

Oh, and I vote: Legalize it. Ultimately, it's going to happen regardless of what anyone thinks/says, there might as well be some standards and regulations.

ssstephanie

08-09-2005, 03:47 PM

Well, thank you! I was beginning to feel like a freak. ;)

um no. You and I are a few of the normal ones.

villanelle75

08-09-2005, 03:49 PM

But aren't their fairly clear gener role son the animal kindom as well, where they don't really have the cultural norms effecting them like humans do? In nearly all animal species, as far as I'm aware, the males persue sex and the femals consent to sex, essentially. Isn't that basically the same as the roles we have defined for ourselves as humans?

I really want to agree with you, wendalah, and I think if anything humans are more capable of overcoming the bilogical differences that may be inherent in every species with regard to gender. As more cogniscent beings, and also beings who don't have sex mearly to procrete because that what we are driven to do, we have the opportunity to redefine those roles. So while I'm not sure I buy that there aren't inherent biological gender differences with regard to libido, I certianly do buy the fact that we can chose to overcome whatever differences may be genetically present and make our sexual appetites what we want them