Horrible CIO situation--would you say anything?

[ginadc]

Let me preface this post by saying that while we do not generally do CIO, I'm not one of those anti-CIO moms who see all CIO as Teh Eeeeevil. But this situation breaks my heart. I have not said anything about it to the mom in question, because I hate people who tell other people how to parent. But I had posted about it on another forum where people started telling me I should say something to the mom. I really think it would be pointless, but thought I'd ask the sensible moms here.

Okay, here's the story. My DD is friends with another 2-year-old in our neighborhood, and we have become casual friends with the parents, who are a lovely Irish couple with whom we have a lot in common. (Mom and I are both writers, we're politically simpatico, etc.) Anyway, we enjoy spending time with them; she and I often meet up with the girls to have lunch, etc.

This couple are absolutely doting parents to their older DD, who was adopted at the age of 4 months. Their agency always uses foster care as a "transition" between birth parents and adoptive parents; usually the babies are not in foster care so long, but their DD had a heart condition and had to have surgery, which delayed things. Anyway, it also meant that they had not experienced all the newborn sleep issues of the "fourth trimester." I don't know for sure, but I'm guessing that since this girl was in the hospital a lot, where things are fairly scheduled, she was "sleeping through the night" or close to it when she came to them.

Okay, so this year the couple adopts DD #2, who came home in February at the age of 6 weeks. Here's where the CIO comes in. The first time I talk to the mom after baby comes home, she tells me that they've been having a horrible time with nighttime sleeping. She talks about lying in bed at night thinking fiercely in her husband's direction, "Don't you DARE pick her up! Don't you DARE!" when the baby is crying.

Apparently, within a week or so of baby's coming home--so when she was about 7 or 8 weeks--they decided to do CIO with her. That meant not going to her at all between 10 pm and 5 am (which they eventually stretched to 7 am), no matter how much she cried. "It only took two nights," the mom bragged to me.

Now, I may be wrong but I don't think even the staunchest CIO advocates think it's okay to:

- CIO at 7 weeks
- CIO for 7-hour stretches

The mom insisted that "we feed her enough before she goes to bed, she doesn't need any more." I have no idea what crazy parenting book would validate her thinking that a 7-week-old could possible have the stomach capacity to "not need" to eat for 7 hours at a stretch.

I don't know that the baby cried the whole 7 hours, but I do know that they wouldn't pick her up no matter what. And of course she stopped crying after a couple of nights--she gave up! That doesn't mean it was a good thing!

I find this even more troubling because this poor little baby has already lost two primary caregivers--first her birthmom and then her foster parents. At a time when she needs to learn to trust her new parents, she's learning instead that they won't feed her or come to her when she cries.

It just breaks my heart. And it blows me away with surprise because this couple have been such great, adoring, devoted parents to ODD. But as far as the other forum's advice to "say something" goes, the little one is now about 3.5 months old, and what's done is done on the CIO thing...so I don't see the point of saying anything now. Does anyone think I could accomplish anything other than alienating this couple (and DD adores her friend, so I'd hate to do that)? My inclination is just to vent privately and be sad. WDYT?

[RobynScott]

Wow ... that's awful. And I *have* let my son CIO when he needed to (around 6 - 7 months of age) - so I am not anti-CIO. But I would never, ever consider that with a 7 week old (even though some people suggested it) - and even with a 7 (now 10) month old, I would feed him if he was hungry.

That's truly, truly awful. I think the best thing you can do is vent here - and if it comes up again - maybe say something along the lines of "you know, I was reading Ferber, Weissbluth [insert parenting sleep book here] and it recommends not doing CIO until at least 6 months b/c baby is not develiomentally ready - and Weissbluth says one night feeding is ok till 9 months."

Maybe you could share that info in the context of what you are doing with your non-sleeping son? Other than that, I probably wouldn't affirmatively raise the issue with her right now as she is likely to just feel attacked.

[BethIrish]

Vent privately. Be sad. And if they have another child, suggest "Happiest Baby on the Block" for soothing methods/"4th trimester" explanations and maybe another sleep book.

If she brings up the CIO/sleeping thing with you, I would be tempted to say something along the lines of "I'm really surprised your Ped advocated CIO that early. I know with DS my ped said blah blah blah yakkety yak about sleep training at that age."

[mcgwigan]

That poor baby!! I would NEVER CIO that young! I guess that like you said what's done is done and I would probably just vent/be sad privately. There's really no point in saying anything to the parents in question about it - unless you want to make them feel guilty....well, maybe I would bring up CIO with them but would tell them that I'm not doing it with my 3 month old because he's too young & that I've read that it can give the baby a sense of distrust. That poor thing!! (Just my opinion though!)

[jimmysgirl424]

Ack..that broke my heart just reading about it. :( Poor, poor baby.

[bensgirl1222]

Wow...that broke my heart:( I just started letting my DS CIO but he is 9 months! I would have never ever done that with a baby that young. Crazy.

[LeighW]

As an adoptive mom, that breaks my heart. :( They are definitely teaching her that crying is futile--no one will respond. They are asking for attachment problems. I don't think it's all over--even if things seem OK now, they could have done some irreparable damage, attachment-wise and they need to start correcting it now.

Can you approach it from the adoption angle? Most experts agree that you should respond to your adopted baby's cries (all of them) for the first 6 months home, no matter how old the baby is. It sounds like she needs information on attachment, and how damaging it can be for an adopted baby to learn immediately she cannot trust her new caregivers to meet her needs.

There is a lot of good attachment information on www.a4everfamily.org. There are some good books also, "Becoming a Family" by Larsh Erickson (?) comes to mind.

I ended up doing some sleep training with both my kids, bio and adopted. But, I would never let a 6-week old CIO, or let a newly adopted baby cry for any period of time. (And my adopted DS, who came home at 7 months, did not sleep through the night for the first 5 months. Not even remotely close.)

Gah. Even my fairly mainstream pediatrician told me to respond to all of my DS's crying for the first 6 months home.

[Lizard]

CIO at 7 weeks.... for 9 hour stretches as well... ugh. UGH. :(

I won't take over your thread, but I wanted to say that I can relate. We have some friends that we've known for several years, they are good people and we get along with them really great. We both had our first children in 2006, and... well, let's just say that some of their parenting decisions are WAY different than what I would choose. I had NO idea prior to them having their child that they would parent in the way that they do. It's been really weird for us, because we enjoyed being around them before, and now things have really drastically changed and I find myself feeling sorry for their child quite often. :(

I'm pretty passive on this stuff, but I have brought up some things with the mom... just as a "Well, we handle DD <this way> and it works great, I can refer you to some reading material if you're looking for info", etc. It's such a touchy subject. I don't want them to think that I'm a better parent because I do things a certain way... I'm not... but I just want to scream "YOU HAVE OTHER OPTIONS!!!" Know what I mean?

[Abby'sMom]

I'm in favor of CIO (if the situation warrants it - it wasn't really needed for DD, but we used it with DS at around 7 months because he was up constantly overnight and we were on the verge of losing it) but I think this is reprehensible. Seven weeks is way, way, way too early. Young babies cry! If you can't handle it, don't adopt or have kids! I'd say something - probably as a PP suggested - from the 'I'm surprised your ped is ok with it' perspective.

[moderngal]

Buy her a copy of the Weissbluth book. I believe he talks about CIO and more gentle approach to it. Tell her you heard it was helpful and thought she might get some ideas to help. I know he says not to CIO prior to 6 months. Or the NCSS if you think she'd read it.

[mrschica]

Poor little baby. :(

My daughter still wakes up once at night for a little bit of milk, and I tried letting her lay there so she can go back to sleep on her own, but I'm weak and just can't watch her there talking, grabbing her little feet, rocking back and forth, waiting. I'm a sucker I know, but I just feel like a total worm ignoring her even if it does frustrate me to no end that she won't skip the night time feeding. I sometimes want to bury myself in a corner somewhere for some sweet uninterrupted sleep, but then I hear my munchkin and turn around to see her smiling at me at 3 in the morning and melt. :o

I would mention something casually, such as the book method everyone is suggesting, just so she won't repeat with the next one.

[honeygirl]

As an adoptive mom, that breaks my heart. :( They are definitely teaching her that crying is futile--no one will respond. They are asking for attachment problems. I don't think it's all over--even if things seem OK now, they could have done some irreparable damage, attachment-wise and they need to start correcting it now.

Can you approach it from the adoption angle? Most experts agree that you should respond to your adopted baby's cries (all of them) for the first 6 months home, no matter how old the baby is. It sounds like she needs information on attachment, and how damaging it can be for an adopted baby to learn immediately she cannot trust her new caregivers to meet her needs.

There is a lot of good attachment information on www.a4everfamily.org. There are some good books also, "Becoming a Family" by Larsh Erickson (?) comes to mind.

I ended up doing some sleep training with both my kids, bio and adopted. But, I would never let a 6-week old CIO, or let a newly adopted baby cry for any period of time. (And my adopted DS, who came home at 7 months, did not sleep through the night for the first 5 months. Not even remotely close.)

Gah. Even my fairly mainstream pediatrician told me to respond to all of my DS's crying for the first 6 months home.

I agree with everything Leigh wrote. He is missing the foundation of trust established through meeting needs. Is there any way you can gently give information about the importance of building attachment? Perhaps b/c you are also an adoptive parent she'll listen to you? There are many wonderful resources by authors such as Holly Van Gulden (Learning the Dance of Attachment) or Dan Hughes (Building the Bonds of Attachment) to name a couple.

[KRL626]

Really sad. It actually happened to me when I was a baby at six weeks old. I was so shocked when my mom told me. I have to say my mom and I are close but loving affection between us has never really been there and I get really uncomfortable when people are affectionate with me. It really got me wondering if it all stemmed back to when I was that small. I personally wouldn't say anything to her, but if she were to complain again about sleep issues I might by the book mentioned by a PP.

[Sarah]

Ouch. Yeah, not a good plan. but it does sound like what's done is done- they've already done the CIO and the kid STTN, right? So maybe there's not much to do now.

[Bloomwood]

I wouldn't say anything. I am a CIO-er and we did it to get baby to put herself to sleep at 9.5 weeks (at the advice of our ped). We absolutely went to her when she awoke later for feedings up until she was 6 months old.

I am not a AP-er. I don't think...I don't actually know what that means. But, I can tell you my daughter is very affectionate with everyone - her friends actually have to tell her "too much love" sometimes. :) We, of course, love all the snuggles she gives. So, I'm not sure I buy that they have done irreparable damage. I'm highly doubtful the baby will remember and I'm assuming that if they are as doting and loving with this baby as they are with #2, she will be fine.

[vjel]

Buy her a copy of the Weissbluth book. I believe he talks about CIO and more gentle approach to it. Tell her you heard it was helpful and thought she might get some ideas to help. I know he says not to CIO prior to 6 months. Or the NCSS if you think she'd read it.

I think this is a really good idea!

I wouldn't say anything. I am a CIO-er and we did it to get baby to put herself to sleep at 9.5 weeks (at the advice of our ped). We absolutely went to her when she awoke later for feedings up until she was 6 months old.

Bloomwood, I think what you did was different though. You did CIO so your DD could learn to fall asleep on her own and when she woke later to eat, you fed her. Gina's friend doesn't sound like she's doing this at all. They basically refused to feed her at night when she woke up. That just doesn't feel right to me. :(

[Ellyn]

I wouldn't say anything. And we are supporters of CIO...and did it with DS (tried it at 4 mo and 6mo but it didn't work...we realized that and waited and tried again at 9mo and it worked). With DD we did it at 8 1/2 mo and she was a lot easier...more like whine it out for her. :rolleyes:

I would also suggest a book for her for her next if they have one, or even now you could say something like, "oh, I've been reading this book on parenting, and usually I don't go for that sort of thing, but this book ____________________ has some great advice and tips in it. If you'd like to read it when I'm done you can have it!"

[betsyboop]

I'm not sure what you think you'll accomplish by saying something at this point. :confused: What's done is done, you know? I think you'll just end up making them feel badly and they'll always feel akward around you afterwards.

Also, you mentioned that they are Irish, so maybe it's a cultural thing?? I'm not sure what the "norm" is for parenting stuff over there...

[Abby'sMom]

I'm not sure what you think you'll accomplish by saying something at this point. :confused: What's done is done, you know?
IMO, if the baby is actually hungry and they're not feeding her when she cries (regardless of attachment issues), that's messed up. If for no other reason, that's what would make me say something.

[ginadc]

I'm not sure what you think you'll accomplish by saying something at this point.

Well, that was kind of the point I made in my original post. I had posted about this on another forum just more or less to vent, because it upsets me so much, and people were telling me I should intervene and even "report them" to their adoption agency or something. My sense is...I wish I could do something to change how they handled things, but they already did this. From the impression I get from the way the mom describes it, the baby cried a lot the first two nights and now "sleeps through the night" from 10 pm to 7 am. So my sense is no matter what I say now, the damage has been done.

I'm not going to bring it up with her, but if she mentions it again I'm going to say something like, "I guess I'm surprised your ped would say it was okay to let a baby that small cry it out for so long," and see what she says. She actually tried to push me to do this with Adrian, and I was like HELL to the NO! I explained that breast milk digests faster than formula, so BFed babies need to eat even more often. "Oh, but you could do it after three months." Not if my baby is screaming and needs to eat, I couldn't.

:: sigh ::

[LeighW]

Well, yes, they already did it, but it's not over, not by a long shot.

Attachment is a funny thing, and problems from this might surface in 6 months or even 6 years. She seriously needs to do some reading on the subject. Not responding to a newly-adopted baby's cries is something vastly different from CIO with a biological baby.

And, if the baby starts waking up in the middle of the night again, they need to respond. Immediately and for a long period of time. They need to understand that this is different than a regular sleep-training issue.

I would talk about attachment and how difficult it can be to diagnose and treat an attachment problem later on, and how comparatively easy it is to build trust with an adopted baby at the beginning. And I would use any opening she gave me to start a discussion.

ETA: Weissbluth's method is generally frowned on by the adoption and attachment community for newly-adopted babies. I own a copy of the book and used his methods with my bio DD. I did not use them at all with my DS until he had been home 6+ months, and even then I didn't do CIO extinction.

[scout]

OMG. I got sick to my stomach thinking of that tiny infant screaming and nobody going to her. At that age (six weeks?!) I'd consider it abuse.

[merjmo]

I keep wondering how to phrase this, but do you think they'll adopt another baby in the future? If so, I would want to report them to the agency from which they adopted. I mean, would you want this to happen to another one? And I keep thinking of all those people who want to adopt and it takes so long, and they want one so badly, and then this family takes one and makes her cry all night long. At 7 weeks. I shouldn't be shocked, but I am.

[twainny]

I am so sad for the little baby. I can't believe the could do that! I try so hard to let DS CIO, but after 10 minutes I can't handle it!! He is 10 months old!!! I could NEVER let a little tiny baby do it!! I am surprised the older daughter didn't wake up. How in the world could someone let such a little baby cry so long. Geez.

[Kanga]

Every story of CIO makes me sad, but this one just breaks my heart. Not only because of the age, but the adoption aspect of it to. No, the baby won't remember the specific incident, but that doesn't mean it won't affect them later in life. Americans spend millions each year on therapy to find out why they do the things they do or act they way they do. There was a Harvard study done that showed a link between CIO and PTSD. I doubt anyone with PTSD actually thinks "My parents never came and got me in the middle of the night as an infant, so I don't know how to handle stress in an appropriate way."

I would report it to the adoption agency. I'm not sure they would/could do anything about it, but it's at least worth a shot. I'm not sure if it would do any good to say anything to the mom. I'd definitely wait for it to come back to topic though and not just bring it up out of the blue. I like the suggestion of saying "My ped said never before x" and also the adoption aspect of it. Since you've adopted before she might be more willing to listen to you than some other random person.

[HGMorgann]

Personally, I believe this is child abuse and I'd be tempted to report it to the adoption agency and possibly CPS. Babies can not be abandoned all night long. It breaks my heart.

[LDS Angel 19]

Wow. I'm a believer in CIO, it did wonders for my kids. When they were 8 months old. But when they were 7 weeks? They cried because they were hungry. I can't imagine letting them cry like that. What did these people do, shut the door, turn off the monitor, and put in earplugs?

[mamax2]

This makes me absolutely sick. My heart breaks for any baby CIO, but like others have said, it seems worse in the case of a baby who so desperately needs to bond w/her new caregivers.

Also, you mentioned that they are Irish, so maybe it's a cultural thing?? I'm not sure what the "norm" is for parenting stuff over there...
I thought about this too. My BIL's family is Irish and when we've gone to Ireland with him & SIL to visit family, I've been amazed at how different some of the pregnancy and parenting standards are. I think there definitely could be a cultural element to this, but that doesn't make it right, IMO.

When my best friend had a baby last year and talked about having to let her newborn CIO, I ordered her a copy of "Happiest Baby on the Block" DVD and had it delivered to her doorstep pronto. It came across as helpful, not bossy, and she and her DH loved it and implemented some of the steps right away.

I think there's definitely a way you could do something similar w/some adoption/attachment books or videos on the subject. Even have your own little 'book club'. Unfortunately, I think that's about all you can do at this point since it's so far after the fact. Plus, unless someone diagnosed the baby with failure to thrive, I don't think this passes for abuse, just crappy parenting, kwim?

eta: I am the Godmother to my 15 y.o. cousin who was adopted from a Ukranian orphanange at 7 months. She VERY clearly has attachment disorder issues and our whole family aches for what she might have gone through her first 7 months. Damage was definitely done :(

[Eliezrah]

We also believe in CIO if need be, but not until at least 4 months of age!! And if my baby is hungry, I'll feed him! In fact, at DS2's 4 month WBV next month I plan on discussing with the ped just this fact.... how can I tell if he's crying out of habit and wanting to nurse out of comfort or if he's crying because he's really hungry? If he's not really, truly hungry, I'll have him CIO. But we wait until the ped says it's ok and we make sure he's not hungry.