Polygamist Compound

[Belm]

Is anyone else following this? Cnn story (http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/09/texas.ranch/index.html?iref=mpstoryview)

While the women and children are in shelters now, I wonder what their life will hold for them. in the future. How will they recover?

[AmyE]

I'm guessing that many of the women will return to their lives in FLDS towns/communities and continue with their plural marriages. This is how they were raised, what they know, and what they believe. I also bet many of the minor kids will be returned to the custody of their mothers.

The question is what will happen with the teenagers - esp the girls who are pregnant or have infants.

[mar5195]

I don't know what it is but I am absolutely obsessed with finding out more about their lifestyle. I've read just about everything I can get my hands on about the FLDS.

I have just been hoping and praying that those who felt pressure to be part of the sect have the strength to leave.

[Sevilla]

For those of you wanting to read more about the FLDS, Carolyn Jessop's book "Escape" and Jon Krakauer's book "Under the Banner of Heaven" are two good books to start with - they're fascinating. I just read Escape last month which is about her leaving the FLDS (she was a plural wife of the guy who is the current leader) so it was fresh in my mind when this all went down in TX.

[katmg]

I think it is so sad. I heard they will probably have to do DNA testing in order to figure out which kids go with which "parents."

They've had to call in psychologists and CPS workers from across the state to help with this situation. San Angelo normally has to place 200 kids a year and they've got to deal with twice that all at one time.

[BTB]

I'm guessing that many of the women will return to their lives in FLDS towns/communities and continue with their plural marriages.

Over time, maybe, but it's interesting to hear that of the 139 adult women who were placed in shelters, they are all free to go (being adults) but not one has left yet.

As for the kids, the last press conference I heard said they were working on placing the children in homes and that there's been a lot of local interest in helping the kids rebuild - people opening their homes, etc.

I wonder what life is like on the ranch right now for the at least five dozen men now there alone?

[honeygirl]

This book is a great read: Shattered Dreams: My Life as a Polygamist's Wife by Irene Spencer (Author)

Irene Spencer website (http://www.irenespencerbooks.com/)

[Belm]

How does a compound of this size stay running? Where are they getting their funds from? I'm going to have to look into those books.

[Kanga]

Over time, maybe, but it's interesting to hear that of the 139 adult women who were placed in shelters, they are all free to go (being adults) but not one has left yet.


But only the adult women are free to go, not their children - right? Makes sense that they aren't willing to leave their children behind.

[Scooter]

On our local news they mentioned that a lot of the kids are really terrified of all the strangers they're around, and it isn't understood yet exactly what they may have been told by the people in the compound about "outsiders." (That they're agents of the devil, things like that.)

It sounded like a lot of the kids aren't speaking out of fear, so I wouldn't doubt that the mothers are staying there partly to protect them against the influence of the officers and social workers etc. You never know what cults really teach the kids. :(

[karlatta]

But only the adult women are free to go, not their children - right? Makes sense that they aren't willing to leave their children behind.
That's what I thought. They aren't necessarily staying because they think, "Oh, yes, finally, I can get out!" They may be staying so that they can continue to be with their children.

I can't imagine how terrified some of the kids (esp. the younger ones) must be. My local news talked about a 3 year old girl - can you imagine her level of confusion? Everything she knew about life - even the smallest details, like the kind of clothes that are worn - is gone.

[kedzieb]

On 360 last night they had women on who left this cult and they had been told the black people were born white but God turned them black to show their sinfulness. They were afraid to stand in line with black people since they were told their sins would rub off. Craziness!

I wouldn't be surprised if these kids & women were told similar things about outsiders.

Also the police found a bed in the temple where the men had sex with the underage girls after the performed the marriage ceremony. Ugh.

[boilermaker]

I find this story interesting from so many aspects. We lived in San Angelo for 3 years not too long ago, so I know exactly where the compound is and how the city is most likely overwhelmed by this. In fact, our next door neighbor was the judge who overheard 90% of cases involving minors, so I am guessing he is involved in this. We've talked to some of our friends in the area and it is a big deal down there. But there is a ton of stuff going on in the community to help these kids as best they can (food, supply, money & toy donations, etc).

Regarding the sect, I find it absolutely despicable, and always have. But I have to wonder about the deep psychological issues surrounding all the people involved. If the "members" are kept that far from society for multiple generations, and basically brainwashed into this thinking, I think there is a grey area for even some of the men involved. Overall, I think it is so sad and that the leaders of the sect really need to be brought to justice.

[karlatta]

On 360 last night they had women on who left this cult and they had been told the black people were born white but God turned them black to show their sinfulness. They were afraid to stand in line with black people since they were told their sins would rub off. Craziness!

I thought about (since I'm a Texas foster parent) offering to take in one or two of these children, but decided not to since my son is black. There is no way a child from this sect could be comfortable in my home, even though I think that I personally could do a pretty good job of respecting her beliefs and helping her move towards a new future.

It breaks my heart to think about all of these kids in the foster care system. The majority of foster homes are not run in such a way that will be good for these kids. I know - I've been in them.

[kedzieb]

I thought about (since I'm a Texas foster parent) offering to take in one or two of these children, but decided not to since my son is black. There is no way a child from this sect could be comfortable in my home, even though I think that I personally could do a pretty good job of respecting her beliefs and helping her move towards a new future.

Well, with the younger kids, I think your offer might be taken. You have a loving home where they can be safe, for at least a little while. I think the children might be young enough to have avoided the brainwashing the women interviewed were talking about.

You're so kind to even offer!

[jimmysgirl424]

Well, with the younger kids, I think your offer might be taken. You have a loving home where they can be safe, for at least a little while. I think the children might be young enough to have avoided the brainwashing the women interviewed were talking about.

I was thinking the same thing. Kudos to you, karlatta, for having enough love in your heart to think about opening your home to one of these kids. Especially since you just had a baby not that long ago!

[karlatta]

I am really considering it. I may have to call my agency and talk to them. My home is a therapeutic foster home, meaning that I've been trained to care for children who have significant emotional or behavioral issues. I think I could do some good.

But I don't know... I just don't know. I've been in tears today just thinking about these kids and what they're going through.

[Kanga]

I thought about (since I'm a Texas foster parent) offering to take in one or two of these children, but decided not to since my son is black. There is no way a child from this sect could be comfortable in my home, even though I think that I personally could do a pretty good job of respecting her beliefs and helping her move towards a new future.

It breaks my heart to think about all of these kids in the foster care system. The majority of foster homes are not run in such a way that will be good for these kids. I know - I've been in them.

I would think as long as the kids were younger, they wouldn't have learned that yet. Dd is 2.5 and hasn't seemed to notice skin color yet. I don't think I personally would be comfortable with an older child though, for fear of your son's safety and the mental well being of the foster child.

[karlatta]

I would think as long as the kids were younger, they wouldn't have learned that yet. Dd is 2.5 and hasn't seemed to notice skin color yet. I don't think I personally would be comfortable with an older child though, for fear of your son's safety and the mental well being of the foster child.
This is true. DS is almost 2 and he has no clue that he looks nothing like us, or that there's even such a thing as a "black" person or a "white" person.

[karlatta]

Okay, you guys convinced me. (Or at least made me think about it.)

I emailed my agency and said we'd take a placement if the need came up. I doubt it will, since we're quite far from the ranch and they're trying to keep placements local, but we'll see.

[BTB]

But only the adult women are free to go, not their children - right? Makes sense that they aren't willing to leave their children behind.

The spokesperson from the Texas Child Protective Services made it sound as though the children and adults were being housed separately. In part, because they were trying to interview the children without any external influence, and in part because they were working on placing the children as wards of the court. Whether ultimately the minors will return to the custody of their mothers still remains to be seen, right? I realize that's the state's ultimate goal, to preserve biological families when possible, but so far all the talk has centered around the placement issues for the children.

[maxandmolly]

The spokesperson from the Texas Child Protective Services made it sound as though the children and adults were being housed separately. In part, because they were trying to interview the children without any external influence, and in part because they were working on placing the children as wards of the court. Whether ultimately the minors will return to the custody of their mothers still remains to be seen, right? I realize that's the state's ultimate goal, to preserve biological families when possible, but so far all the talk has centered around the placement issues for the children.
It sounds very much like they haven't even finished interviewing all the kids yet-which means the permanency goals likely have yet to be determined. Reunification isn't always the goal after a removal, although the standards for up-front termination of parental rights are pretty high/extreme. The extreme high profile of the situation will also affect the decisions made. I can't imagine the stress level involved in working child protection in TX right now (you know, because it's such a low stress position to start with!).
Karlatta-I agree, if you got a younger child, your son's skin color probably won't be an issue. And I would imagine the foster care system being so overstuffed that they might just need homes in your area. As stressful as my job is, foster parents are the ones who the job 24/7, and I have so much respect for most of them.

[BTB]

Just thoughts out loud here - but I wonder how the polygamist nature of the group will affect how children are placed. I read that complicating the issue of sorting out who's in custody is the fact that some children are identifying multiple women as "mother" and some of the kids, especially the younger ones, may not even know who their actual biological mother is. More than one article has alluded to potential DNA tests to get things figured out, but I'm not sure what source that info's coming from.

[maxandmolly]

It wouldn't affect physical placement so much as the legal process. In an ideal situation, siblings would be placed together (making who a child's mother is important), but in that kind of mess, it could very well be the least of their worries. The legal wrangling over who is which child's parent may go on for a while.

[ManteoChik]

It wouldn't affect physical placement so much as the legal process. In an ideal situation, siblings would be placed together (making who a child's mother is important), but in that kind of mess, it could very well be the least of their worries. The legal wrangling over who is which child's parent may go on for a while.

Its my understanding that most of these women have multiple children. How would they handle this when trying to place siblings together. I would imagine its hard to find a foster home for 3+ siblings. I wonder how that works?

[maxandmolly]

Its my understanding that most of these women have multiple children. How would they handle this when trying to place siblings together. I would imagine its hard to find a foster home for 3+ siblings. I wonder how that works?
If these children are naming multiple women "mother", how can they possibly hope to really put siblings together? If each man had, say, 5 wives (totally guessing here) and each of them had at least 4 children, that's 20 kids calling themselves brothers and sisters.
In an "ordinary" foster care situation, yes, a foster home where all the siblings can be together is looked for first. Foster parents are licensed based on many factors, including how much space they have in their home, how many bedrooms, etc. Based on that they are licensed (this varies a bit depending on the agency) for a certain number of children, of certain ages and/or genders. So, if a foster home licensed for five beds has only one filled, a sibling group of 4 might be placed with them. But if you have 20 kids in the same family, a foster home licensed for that many children, just isn't going to happen. So they would have to be split up.
But not all of these children are necessarily destined for long-term foster care. Not all the residents of the compound were born into it or are only related to people there (right?). At least some of these children probably have relatives who are not involved in that lifestyle. Appropriate relatives are almost always preferable over foster care. Once they untangle which children were born to which parents, relatives will likely be contacted for possible placement.

[honeygirl]

According to what I've read about FDLS/polygamist communities they are usually mostly related, or are from other poly areas. So extended or non-poly family members being outside is doubtful. This is what makes them different from a cult. They don't join, but are rather born into the culture/lifestyle.

[karlatta]

More than one article has alluded to potential DNA tests to get things figured out, but I'm not sure what source that info's coming from.
DNA testing to determine paternity is pretty common in foster care (I've taken kids in to be testd), so I wouldn't be surprised at all if it were ordered in some of the more complicated cases.

[maxandmolly]

According to what I've read about FDLS/polygamist communities they are usually mostly related, or are from other poly areas. So extended or non-poly family members being outside is doubtful. This is what makes them different from a cult. They don't join, but are rather born into the culture/lifestyle.
A ha. How sad for everyone involved.
But it brings up a different question. With most people are born into the culture, not joining from outside, wouldn't they run out of wives at some point? All things being equal, wouldn't there be a roughly equal number of boys and girls born to the members?

[Scooter]

That's why they kick most of the boys out. The girls are then married to men in the 40s and older. It might vary a little by group, but it's a political thing which men are chosen to be allowed to stay and who is allowed to get a wife when--decided on by the "Prophet" of course.

[BTB]

With most people are born into the culture, not joining from outside, wouldn't they run out of wives at some point?

As Scooter says, one of the saddest aspects of this "culture" is the abandonment of the teenage boys who are thrown out, losing their homes, families, schools, and faith all in one day.

[jarm]

Did anyone see Larry King the other night when they were allowed inside the ranch? If you missed it, you can watch it on You Tube.

[ManteoChik]

I saw it. It was very bizzar. I just kept listening to everything the women were saying and every time they speak it just sounds soooo scripted.

[solongtogo]

THe women are definitely fed a script. I was watching the today show or one of those morning shows, and they asked the three women about the children and abuse of the children. They were so robotic and all three unemotionally voiced that the children love them and if they were being abused, they wouldn't love them.

I don't know if this has been voiced here or not, but I also heard that the color of the womens dresses signifies what family she is from. So lately from what I've seen, the guy who's gals dress in light blue is getting around big time.

[Kanga]

I never thought about the script but on the today show it seemed like they had the hardest time answering the questions (why do wear you hair the way you do, etc). I assumed it was because they aren't used to voicing their opinion or speaking up about something much.

[karlatta]

I never thought about the script but on the today show it seemed like they had the hardest time answering the questions (why do wear you hair the way you do, etc). I assumed it was because they aren't used to voicing their opinion or speaking up about something much.

Could be. Or it could be that they've just never really even thought about it. It's just the way things are done in their world, you know? I mean, if someone asked me why I shave my legs, for example, I have no real reason why, other than that's what women in my society do - it's what my mom does, it's what my grandmother does, it's what I'll teach my DD to do. I'd be hard pressed to come up with an intelligent answer for that one, especially if I were on TV representing my entire church/culture.

Not saying that they're not oppressed, but that other stuff probably factors into their awkwardness on camera as well.

[DallasLady]

But it brings up a different question. With most people are born into the culture, not joining from outside, wouldn't they run out of wives at some point? All things being equal, wouldn't there be a roughly equal number of boys and girls born to the members?

I have always wondered what their "official" answer is to this question. I have heard that the boys get kicked out just to keep the ratio of men to women in their favor. But this can't be their "official" policy. If you asked a FLDS man, I wonder what he would say? Because it's not like for every one boy born, six girls are born.

Could be. Or it could be that they've just never really even thought about it. It's just the way things are done in their world, you know? I mean, if someone asked me why I shave my legs, for example, I have no real reason why, other than that's what women in my society do - it's what my mom does, it's what my grandmother does, it's what I'll teach my DD to do. I'd be hard pressed to come up with an intelligent answer for that one, especially if I were on TV representing my entire church/culture.

I agree with you, Karlatta. This is just how they live. She could easily ask the interviewer, "Well, why do you wear your hair the way you do?"

[Adaya]

I just wish the media would stop interviewing them. They are all clearly answering the same way and the answers they are giving don't seem to give much information. It seems like the media wants them to give up some juicy details or something and that's not what's going to happen. I don't if it's a script or not and don't really care, but it seems like they are very uncomfortable and hopefully the interviews will end soon.

[honeygirl]

The FDLS church made a website:

Captive FLDS Children (http://www.captivefldschildren.org/index.php)

They have photos of the raid as well as videos of the children. Looks like they are asking for donations.

[maxandmolly]

The FDLS church made a website:

Captive FLDS Children (http://www.captivefldschildren.org/index.php)

They have photos of the raid as well as videos of the children. Looks like they are asking for donations.
"Enormous" litigation costs? Do they not qualify for court appointed attorneys like the great majority of the parents in most states?

[ysolde]

Okay, you guys convinced me. (Or at least made me think about it.)

I emailed my agency and said we'd take a placement if the need came up. I doubt it will, since we're quite far from the ranch and they're trying to keep placements local, but we'll see.

karlatta--

If there are angels among us, you are one of them. Bless you!!!!

[Renee34]

Where are all of the teen age boys and men....did they take off before the state came to take all the kids? Did the flds even know that the state was coming in? Sorry if this was already addressed, I haven't read all the earlier posts.

[Kate&Joey]

SAN ANGELO, Texas - A Texas appeals court said Thursday that the state had no right to take more than 400 children from a polygamist sect's ranch, a ruling that could unravel one of the biggest child-custody cases in U.S. history.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24777095/

[MichelleRenee]

I was watching a news show about this a couple of weeks ago and a former compound wife (who apparantly left by choice, which wasn't easy) was describing some of the child abuse that took place in her home with her children by her husband. It was very sick. She described a common practice she called "breaking" the child. WARNING: this is very disturbing......

Apparantly the dad spanks the child until he (or she) has screamed so much he can't scream anymore. Then the child is held under running water for a long amount of time, and then spanked again and it is an ongoing process that can last for hours and is meant to instill fear of the parents. This is done at a young age, like 3 or 4.

This mom was talking about watching this being done to one of her sons and it was absolutely heartbreaking. And that is just one example of the child abuse that takes place there. I don't understand that court ruling AT ALL.

I just feel so bad for those kids.

[PinkMartini]

OH MY GOD.... Reading that just sent chills down my back. I can not even imagine allowing my husband (or anyone for that matter) do that to my children (or any child) :eek:

[honeygirl]

I read about that but it was done with babies, not 3 or 4yo! She also said that moms are discouraged from showing affection to their children. That children belong to "the family" not the mother. She said that the children bond to each other, not their parents. In some cases they don't even know who their bio mom is!

She said that once leaving the compound she had to re-learn how to be a mother. That it was okay to hug and kiss your child, etc.

[KiKi'sMommy]

Did anyone watch 48 hours tonight? It was so sad and frustrating. I just want to shake those poor people and tell them there is so much more to life than following some crazy man's rules.

[jimmysgirl424]

I was watching a news show about this a couple of weeks ago and a former compound wife (who apparantly left by choice, which wasn't easy) was describing some of the child abuse that took place in her home with her children by her husband. It was very sick. She described a common practice she called "breaking" the child. WARNING: this is very disturbing......

Apparantly the dad spanks the child until he (or she) has screamed so much he can't scream anymore. Then the child is held under running water for a long amount of time, and then spanked again and it is an ongoing process that can last for hours and is meant to instill fear of the parents. This is done at a young age, like 3 or 4.

Reading that made my whole stomach turn upside down. How horribly awful. :(:mad::(

[honeygirl]

I've been reading the book "Escape" by Carolyn Jessop and I can't put it down! It's fascinating. I've read a few other books about polygamy but this one is the most interesting (and modern) so far. The compound really is a cult and the rules they had to live under are incredibly oppressive. I can't believe that it is happening in this country, in my lifetime, just a few hours from where I live!

[imagirliegirl]

I'm sad that those kids have to go back. :(

[maxandmolly]

They're going back under court and child welfare supervision. The court order specifies they have to cooperate with unannounced home visits, continued investigation, etc. It's not like they get to shut the gate and not come out. I wouldn't be able to sleep at night if I were the one to send them back, but there will be some safety net there. Not enough, not nearly enough, but it's better than nothing.

[phoenics]

I bet the one who sent them back isn't getting much sleep, but I wonder if this was simply the best they could do under the law.

[Delta]

It's absolutely the correct decision under the law to send them back. CPS completely overstepped and as a consequence probably traumatized 450 kids unnecessarily.

What they are doing now is what they should have done in the first place. (Although, they should actually have put a restraining order on the men from the beginning.)

[karlatta]

It's absolutely the correct decision under the law to send them back. CPS completely overstepped and as a consequence probably traumatized 450 kids unnecessarily.

What they are doing now is what they should have done in the first place. (Although, they should actually have put a restraining order on the men from the beginning.)
I agree with this. And I think that living with their parents under the state's supervision is FAR superior to living in foster care, in this case.