Olympics in China

[jesvet]

Clinton calls on Bush to boycott Olympics (http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/)

Also from cnn (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/04/07/oly.torchrelay/index.html), a story about the latest protests with the Olympic torch relay:

The last part of the Olympic torch relay in Paris was canceled Monday after a day of chaos in which anti-China protesters forced authorities to extinguish the flame at least five times, take to a bus and skip some scheduled stops, including city hall.

There were confrontations between the authorities and demonstrators throughout the day as the relay attempted to crisscross Paris, birthplace of the modern Olympic movement, passing landmarks including l'Arc d'Triomphe, the Place de la Concord, The Louvre and Notre Dame.

The chaos came one day after human rights activist demonstrators made the torch's journey through London more like running the gauntlet than a journey of celebration, as UK police made more than two dozen arrests.

What do you all think? Should we boycott the Olympics this year? I vaguely remember the Russian boycott in the 80s and what a huge deal it was- but if the whole spirit of the games is to foster global camaraderie how can we ignore the massive human rights issues in China? Or should we?

[ysolde]

I think we should boycott the games. It would send a message that we will no longer stand idly by while China continues its massive human rights violations (not to mention the way it treats animals).

[laura]

You know, I am truly torn on this issue. On the one hand, I do agree that the human rights violations are terrible and we should do something to send a message (or actually help in some way*). OTOH, I just don't know that the Olympics are the forum in which to address these issues. To me personally (and me alone, it seems), the Olympics are not a political event.

*Insert tangent about how we only help social injustice when there is something to be gained for us, etc.

[IrishEyes]

In the recent history of the Olympics, the boycotts have not worked. In the case of these Olympics, we've already seen some athletes make the personal choice not to go, usually due to the issues with the pollution.

However, I think the athletes should be allowed to speak out if they choose. As Len Elmore said on the Sports Reporters on ESPN yesterday, with endorsements, etc., he doesn't foresee displays along the lines of those in Mexico City, but they all have a right to speak out. The fact that governments are trying to get their athletes to sign something that says they won't speak up is ridiculous.

IMO, China shouldn't have gotten these Olympics in the first place. If the IOC is actually trying to do anything 'behind the scenes', as they claim, to push for better human rights, I'd like to know about it.

[jesvet]

IMO, China shouldn't have gotten these Olympics in the first place. If the IOC is actually trying to do anything 'behind the scenes', as they claim, to push for better human rights, I'd like to know about it.

I definitely agree about that. It seemed like a huge shock to everyone that the IOC went with China. I wonder what went on behind closed doors.

[Lucy Van Pelt]

I agree that the games should never have been awarded to China in the first place. However, I don't think a boycott is the answer. It would be very unfair to the athletes who have worked their whole lives for these moments to be denied their chance because of political issues.

[kedzieb]

I definitely agree about that. It seemed like a huge shock to everyone that the IOC went with China. I wonder what went on behind closed doors.

I remember reading that it was because unlike the other options (London, NYC and some other place), China was able to easily build the infrastructure needed for the games in time. Sure, when you can hire underpaid workers, pay no overtime, ignore environmental regulations and seize land, it's a lot easier to build stadiums!

i wish it wasn't being held in China too and although I do feel bad for the athletes involved, I think the protests are justified. If people don't speak up about this, the future locations chosen for the Olympics may be even worse.

[thedoorchick]

I don't really think a boycott is the answer, though I am somewhat torn and do see the reasoning behind the suggestion.

The cynic in me is thinking it's awfully convenient that Hillary is the one making statements about it, given the election.

[Dally]

Too little, too late, but I also agree that China should never have been awarded the Olympics.

I also don't think we should boycott because 1) to me the Olympics are the opposite of a political event--it's about celebrating what we can achieve not disdaining those we disagree with, and 2) it's ridiculous to boycott the Olympics but continue to trade with China as if nothing is amiss with their record on human rights. If we really wanted to boycott something to do with China, we'd have to support that stance economically. Of course, I don't see that happening because we've come to depend on trade with China and because they own so much of our debt. We are truly in a scary place economically with regard to China.

[jennylou]

I don't really think a boycott is the answer, though I am somewhat torn and do see the reasoning behind the suggestion.

The cynic in me is thinking it's awfully convenient that Hillary is the one making statements about it, given the election.

And given all the "lies", er mistaken stories, lately. Totally, she is trying to get people's minds off of that.

[IrishEyes]

But the issue is delicate as athletes face punishment from the International Olympic Committee in the case of protest action in the Olympic areas.

The Olympic Charter says in article 51 that "No kind of demonstration or political, religious or racial propaganda is permitted in any Olympic sites, venues or other areas." Violations can lead to disqualification and loss of Olympic accreditation.

American sprinters Tommie Smith and John Carlos were kicked out of the 1968 Games after their Black Power protest at the 200m victory ceremony. Less than two weeks ago Serbian swimmer Milorad Cavic had to leave the European swim championships after wearing a T-shirt with the writing "Kosovo is Serbia."

More here at German Athletes Explore Olympic Protest Options (http://www.topnews.in/german-athletes-explore-olympic-protest-options-229950).

[imagirliegirl]

I agree that the games should never have been awarded to China in the first place. However, I don't think a boycott is the answer. It would be very unfair to the athletes who have worked their whole lives for these moments to be denied their chance because of political issues.

Pretty much.

I will say, if I had trained my whole life to make it to the Olympics, though, I'd be pretty pissed that my turn came around in China. It's pretty shocking that it's being held there at all.

[AmyE]

1) I don't think boycotts are effective in doing anything more than crushing the hopes of atheletes from the countries that do not send teams, and making the victories of those who compete therefore "less." Especially since realistically, the vast majority of the Western world will send teams, as will pretty much all the developing countries.

2) It's pretty rich that Bill is calling for a boycott, since he'd never in a million years have agreed to one on his watch. In fact, when he tried linking trade and HR in China in the early part of his first term, he gave it up by the end of his administration. (China had basically just increased trade with Europe and other parts of Asia, leaving only US businesses frustrated and hurt by supplier issues.)

3) I think what China needs most is to be more open to other countries. I think there should be more foreign visitors, more foreign journalists, more cameras and stories and personal contacts. Otherwise, it's too easy for the government to hide things from both their own people and the outside world.

4) I think the general population of China is very nationalistic, and having the Olympics is a huge point of pride. Boycotting the Games would - in my personal opinion - only make the general Chinese population angry at the boycotters, not their Government. Generally it would be an issue of losing face. Having only a few countries boycott the Games would make it very political, and for the average Chinese person, hugely insulting to them. I do not think it would cause them to put more pressure on their own Government to change - except maybe to call on their leaders to impose sanctions on the boycotting countries!

SO, basically, since China DID get the Games (and the IOC matter is clearly one that needs some investigation), why not make it as difficult as possible for the Chinese leadership and send as many tourists, journalists, crowds and spectators as possible. They wont' be able to impose a total news blackout (although they sure will try!) and it would frankly be even more useful if the international press were to report the kinds of censorship that will happen. And let those visitors experience the same....Governments are sometimes limited by what they can accomplish. Let some fresh air in there, see what happens.

[jnettie]

ITA with those who say the Olympics should never even have been awarded to China. I know that a boycott won't happen, but I personally won't watch.

I think the general population of China is very nationalistic, and having the Olympics is a huge point of pride.
I think we are lead to believe that the general population of China is very nationalistic. What I think the government does is use culture to suppress as much as they use torture. This is a face issue on many levels. There is also a cultural aspect of "respect" and not making trouble. Making trouble gets you attention and brings soldiers to your door.

DH's grand-uncle was a coach for the Chinese national volleyball team in the 70s. Even though most of DH's family was here in the states, Uncle was not allowed to leave China, nor ever visit family. Even when his own sister - DH's grandmother - was dying, the Chinese government would not allow him to leave the country to visit her or go to her funeral. He had to quit coaching and become a cook, and then wait 10 years before they allowed him to come to the states. At that point his sister had died years before and he could only visit her grave.

This is how China treats it's athletes. I hate China.

[paiger]

Just as an FYI...She didn't say that the US should boycott the entire Olympic Games, just the Opening Ceremony, which is what many other nations are considering doing.

I'm really torn on this issue as well, but I do disagree with how the IOC and China are trying to say 'not to make the Olympics political', since the World Olympics have been political since their beginning. They even had a really interesting piece on NPR the other day about all the different political happenings from the Olympics.

[SiValleySteph]

DH's grand-uncle was a coach for the Chinese national volleyball team in the 70s. Even though most of DH's family was here in the states, Uncle was not allowed to leave China, nor ever visit family. Even when his own sister - DH's grandmother - was dying, the Chinese government would not allow him to leave the country to visit her or go to her funeral. He had to quit coaching and become a cook, and then wait 10 years before they allowed him to come to the states. At that point his sister had died years before and he could only visit her grave.

This is how China treats it's athletes. I hate China.

This is not today's China. Your DH's family's experience and my DH's family's experiences are quite different. We have had many family members visit the US. Also, all of DH's expatriate family (living in China, Sweden, elsewhere in Europe) has been to visit China numerous times. It's just not the same as it was 30-40 years ago. It is radically different. China is changing rapidly. It's even radically different since my husband's family moved to the US 20 years ago.

Also, most Chinese people (recent immigrants) *I* know are very nationalistic. Including my DH. :)

I happen to love China. Not everything about the government, but I love the country and the people.

(FWIW, I know several people who have not been able to travel out of the US to go to family member's funerals due to visa issues or green card status. If they left, they would have jeopordized many years of trying to get a green card. It's not always a one way street.)

[ysolde]

In 1989, one of my favorite fellow students was from China. I hesitate to say, even today, in what field, for fear of repercussions (China monitors the Internet like nobody's business, and it censors its use quite heavily within China). When the Tiananmen Square massacre hapened, this person was terrified. I mean, absolutely terrified. Walked around quickly, without looking up. If you said, "Hello," on the street, s/he quickened his/her pace, and even crossed the street on more than one occasion, avoiding fellow students. Told us in class s/he felt "watched," could not get hold of family back in China, was not sure what had happened to friends, and was not sure what was going to happen to him/her (whether the government would persecute him/her or go after family members because s/he was in the US when all of this was going on). I have never seen such abject terror in anyone.

I thought, then, that we should not be doing business with China. I am well aware of how difficult a decision it is, from an economic standpoint. But China's treatment of its people is an obscenity.

[Red'sGirl]

A bit OT, but remember that those people who "made a statement" at the Mexico City games, STILL do not have their medals. So it's not so easy to stand up once you're there.

And it's really just the Opening Ceremony, so it's a symbolic stance we're taking.

[ejs]

A bit OT, but remember that those people who "made a statement" at the Mexico City games, STILL do not have their medals. So it's not so easy to stand up once you're there.

And it's really just the Opening Ceremony, so it's a symbolic stance we're taking.

Where did you hear this? Tommie Smith has his medal (http://www.tommiesmith.com/).
This article says that they both got theirs.
http://media.www.thespartandaily.com/media/storage/paper852/news/2007/10/16/News/Campus.Celebrates.Olympian.Runners-3034490.shtml

[Red'sGirl]

:eek: Doh! It was stated in a documentary I saw. Go figure.

Glad they got theirs. Always thought that was wrong.

[jesvet]

Thank you for clarifying the opening ceremony boycott versus the whole Olympics. Interesting. Not sure what message that is supposed to send, really.

Though I agree with most everyone who said the fault lies with the IOC for choosing Beijing in the first place. The issues coming up are not exactly new.

Aside from the politics, there was an article I read a while back where the Olympic team caterer had gone to China to scope out the food situation, and they were showing them these massive pieces of chicken breast- like several pound individual breasts. Frankenchickens. They were so full of steroids there was no way you feed them to your team and not test positive, he said- so they were going to have to fly in all their own food.

[ThreeYell]

Aside from the politics, there was an article I read a while back where the Olympic team caterer had gone to China to scope out the food situation, and they were showing them these massive pieces of chicken breast- like several pound individual breasts. Frankenchickens. They were so full of steroids there was no way you feed them to your team and not test positive, he said- so they were going to have to fly in all their own food.

Here's the article (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/09/sports/othersports/09olympics.html?_r=1&scp=4&sq=olympics+beijing+food&st=nyt&oref=slogin). It was fascinating.

[kedzieb]

In addition to the scary chickens, I remember reading (possibly the same article) that the coaches were planning on keeping the athletes out of Beijing as long as possible. Housing them off-shore somewhere. Training outside of the city and only driving in at the last possible minute.

There's a general consensus that the air-pollution is so bad that they predict few records will be broken. The athletes won't have the lungs for it. Yikes!

[zayt]

I support anyone making the decision to boycott for themselves as competitors and in my ideal world that would extend to teams making the decision as well. But it's not that simple. I'm fully (frustratingly!) aware that a good proportion of the general population are either ignorant of human rights abuses, or don't see them as an issue - so why would athletes be any different, especially when, at an Olympic level, their sport has probably already taking priority over many other aspects of their lives? It's for that reason I don't support an enforced team ban - the lack of freedom of choice is part of the problem in China, to take that away from individual athletes from less controversial democracies wouldn't make sense in my mind.

One of the things that concerns me is the level of political pressure that gets put on athletes. After all, being an olympian means that you are really, really good at a sport. There is no requirement to understand international politics, human rights issues etc. or speak on behalf of your nation.

I understand that they come under this pressure because sport is high profile, but while there is all this call for people not to do something they have worked their whole life to achive, where are the calls for business to boycott working with China, or consumers not to buy made-in-China products. It is as if the financial pressures are just too great and sport is a much easier way to go.

There are some very serious issues here and I just think that all this focus on the olympics and sports people ignores some of the much more powerful ways there could be to send a message, while calling for a small group of people to make an enormous sacrifice which may have no effect.

[jnettie]

This is not today's China. Your DH's family's experience and my DH's family's experiences are quite different. We have had many family members visit the US. Also, all of DH's expatriate family (living in China, Sweden, elsewhere in Europe) has been to visit China numerous times. It's just not the same as it was 30-40 years ago. It is radically different. China is changing rapidly. It's even radically different since my husband's family moved to the US 20 years ago.

Also, most Chinese people (recent immigrants) *I* know are very nationalistic. Including my DH. :)

I happen to love China. Not everything about the government, but I love the country and the people.

(FWIW, I know several people who have not been able to travel out of the US to go to family member's funerals due to visa issues or green card status. If they left, they would have jeopordized many years of trying to get a green card. It's not always a one way street.)

Don't confuse being proud of your heritage with being Nationalistic. DH's family is quite proud of being Chinese and do go back and visit from time to time. Nationalistic is being proud of your government, and they are not happy with what the government is or has been doing. They still have friends and family there. It's an ongoing process of trying to bring people over. My SIL even recently did a summer abroad at Bejing University 2 years ago, so it's not like they came over in the 60's and that's it.

And the difference with Uncle was that the was barred by the government from leaving at all because he was a coach for the national team. Not the same as just being turned down a visa.

I call bullshit (not directly on you, but on China) for all this crap about "things being better". Yeah, on the surface. They still have way too many capitol crimes (isn't prostitution still punishable by death?) They still have way too many political prisoners. And calling the Dali Lama a terrorist? Come on. You still have to buy good medical treatment. People still work in horrible conditions. Yes, it's an amazing country and an amazing culture, but the government is still crap.

And here we are, saying that we're bringing democracy to Iraq, when Taiwan and Tibet are BEGGING for help and we turn away. It's bullshit.

[ejs]

Don't confuse being proud of your heritage with being Nationalistic. DH's family is quite proud of being Chinese and do go back and visit from time to time. Nationalistic is being proud of your government, and they are not happy with what the government is or has been doing.

Where do you get your definition of nationalistic? According to Merriam-Webster, nationalism means: loyalty and devotion to a nation; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups

I don't see where that says "proud of your government."

[Niobe]

San Francisco is very interesting right now. Yesterday, activists scaled the Golden Gate bridge. Protest marches today, and tomorrow is going to be... well, we're not really sure what tomorrow is going to be. After the violence with the police at the war anniversary protests a couple weeks ago, I'm a little concerned with how tomorrow will go. There are protests being staged in parts of the city that aren't even on the torch route, from what I can tell. The protest today started down at City Hall (it marched up my street!), and the plaza there still seemed set up as a staging area - there were probably a dozen news vans milling around after 10pm tonight, and it looked like they were still interviewing people. At least one torch runner has dropped out already.

I do have to wonder why San Francisco was picked - I heard the reasoning behind it being that the oldest Chinatown in the U.S. is here, and there's such a large Chinese population, but really. Did they not anticipate THIS city being a bit of a hotspot for political issues?

Mayor Newsome seems determined to get the torch through the city in one piece, w/o the use of a bus. Guess we'll see what happens. I don't know if I'm going down there or not...

[AmyE]

.
And here we are, saying that we're bringing democracy to Iraq, when Taiwan and Tibet are BEGGING for help and we turn away. It's bullshit.

Taiwan is a democracy (of sorts), and they need to be responsible before we "help" them. Which is what we've been doing since the 1970s.

Tibet is a part of China. They have no democratic tradition. Not even the Dalai Lama is calling for independence. In fact, he specifically repudiates independence. He is looking for greater autonomy, which is not the same thing. And he's not calling for democracy either. It's not part of Tibetan culture, history, or tradition. I don't know of any Tibetan organization calling for a US invasion to "free Tibet." What most organizations want from the US, including the Dalai Lama front group, is pressure on China to halt repressions, relax the strictures on Tibetan culture, and dialogue on greater autonomy. But anyone who has studied Tibet at all knows that they have next to no resources that would allow them to be even a semi-stable self-sufficient economy.

[Niobe]

I thought Tibet DID have a democratic government - in exile at least. They have a Prime Minister, right?

[laura]

As Niobe said, it is going to be an interesting day in the Bay Area today. On the train this morning, I saw so so many Chinese people carrying Chinese flags, wearing Olympics Tshirts, etc, on their way up to the city for the festivities - literally hundreds of them. They were so excited and so cute about the whole event that I fear is going to be a complete disaster that it made me feel bad. I mean I KNOW about all the atrocities going on in China, I get why people are upset (sort of - I think the Olympics is a weird forum for that anyway, but I digress), etc. But what I personally have been missing in my analysis of the situation is what the protest is taking away from the citizens of China (or current/former Chinese citizens living elsewhere) who are so excited for this event happening in China.

I will admit, when I saw the scrum of people at my train station this morning, I immediately assumed they were protesters. I'm glad they weren't.

[SiValleySteph]

They still have friends and family there. It's an ongoing process of trying to bring people over.

That's interesting because my FIL would like to move back to China. Most of their family and friends in China are doing quite well and in many ways have an easier life than MIL & FIL do here. (Who, I might add, have done very well for themselves - both in the tech industry.) They don't have any friends or family members who would like to move to the US. DH's parents moved to the US primarily for economic opportunity as I understand it (not for democracy) and the economic opportunity in China is now greater for their peers than it is here.

We are excited about the Olympics taking place in China. We had hoped to attend but decided against it due to crowds, difficulty in getting tickets, etc.).

[AmyE]

I thought Tibet DID have a democratic government - in exile at least. They have a Prime Minister, right?

There is a group that calls itself the government in exile, but it isn't democratic. The Dalai Lama is the exective, and he appoints the ministers. There is body called an assembly, which is supposed to be popularly elected. However, they are elected by the small band of Tibetans living in India who chose to depart Tibet (with excellent reason, of course!!) and, IMHO, cannot claim to truly represent the Tibetan people. It's too much of a self-selected group. The assembly can act as an advisory council, but has no power to administer or execute.

Also, as even the Govt in Exile notes, the government in Tibet before the Chinese invasion is not something anyone contemplates returning to. All land was owned by the state, and given to monestaries or favored individuals. Tibetans were required to work on the land in what would be called serfdom or slavery, applying today's definitions. Lay positions in administration of government were hereditary. All other positions were open only to monks. Lets not even discuss the rights of women..(which were bad pretty most everywhere in the 1940s, for historical accuracy's sake; but they were considered chattel. The closest comparison is probably with Europe in the middle ages or Russia for much of it's history - a national serf class with no rights but many labor obligations, overseen by a monastic class that served as the nobility. Tithing, etc etc. It is very illustrative to me that the "old guard" Tibetans make such a point that they don't intend to re-create pre 1952 Tibetan adminsitration or laws.) Capital punishment was not allowed, but physical mutilation as punishment was. which in no way, shape or form makes the Chinese invasion and subsequent brutality excusable in any way. I point this out only to show that the pre-invasion Tibet was not all sunshine and roses, happy compassionate Buddhists.

PS. China has a President, Laos and Vietnam have Prime Ministers and Presidents. Not democracies! (and apologies for putting this in the sentence directly after describing the DL"s administration of Daramsala, India. I really am not trying to equate his rule with the rule of communist parties.)

[Niobe]

Thanks for the clarification AmyE. My knowledge on Tibet's government is fuzzy at best.

So I ended up going to the protest today. It was pretty incredible. HUGE, but very peaceful. It was part protest, part celebration, part crappy concert (really awful cover band playing on a stage set up by Olympic officials). Thousands of people were down at the Embarcadero, just filling the street and the plazas around there. There were more large groups running around the city trying to intercept it - the torch was lit at the starting point as planned, but the first runner promptly ran into a warehouse and disappeared. The next runner then came off a bus with it halfway across town 45 minutes later. :cool: Then it became a game as protesters raced around in attempts to blockade the unknown route.

One runner pulled out a Tibetan flag when she was handed the torch. The torch was quickly taken from her and she was pulled from the relay.

Down at the main protest site (originally planned to be the site for the closing ceremonies) there was surprisingly little separation of the different groups - there wasn't a barricade set up down the middle with people on either side screaming at each other or anything like that. There were just small groups of Free Tibet protesters, Free Burma/Where Are the Monks?, Save Darfur (those guys were seriously well-organized), some general Stop Worldwide Genocide, pro-China, and then the basic Olympic supporters, all milling around together. I got some neat pics with dozens of Tibetan and Chinese flags all mixed together in the crowd. There were some staging/speaking areas set up - the Tibetan protesters' area was a large, lovely grassy area. But as for conflict, mostly I'd see small groups of 4-8 people on each side yelling at each other - overall it was very much a non-violent event. The cops all looked either bored or mildly entertained by it all.

The torch never made it to the closing ceremonies at the protest site at all. The route had to be altered, and cut in half, and pretty much the torch wasn't seen at all unless you just happened to be outside on the new route (J's best friend was one of these lucky people - he said the torch runner was behind this wacky amphibious thing. Maybe in case they were forced to take off into the bay? But I do have a first-hand witness to the torch actually running through the city). Kinda makes you wonder what the point of the torch relay even is, if no one sees it. The ceremonies had to be held at a closed portion of the airport, with basically no press, and the torch promptly loaded on a plane. Why bother?

Oh, and that was the most incredible mass of news vans I have ever seen congregated together. Just this sea of white vans with satellite dishes.

Best of luck to Buenos Aires.

[Scooter]

Bumping this up so there's a place to talk about the "other" side of the Olympics, besides the sports.

Any opinions so far on what's happened or how things are being handled?

It's been 2 days and the presenters are still talking about how amazing the Opening Ceremonies were. I was able to appreciate the artistry and the spectacle, but the beginning part seemed like such a military display to me, more about intimidating or warning than anything else. I couldn't tell how much was from the gov't and how much was from the director. There was so much conflict in the messages that it was hard to watch at times. Like an apparent military display while supposedly symbolizing Confuscious' peaceful teachings and showing the character for "harmony." Or teaching a lesson about how we must flow with nature instead of destroying the environment--while holding the Games in a city where they had to take some pretty major actions just to make the smog thin enough for athletes to be able to compete. Or just the fact that these messages of peace and harmony are at complete odds with what their gov't has done & continues to do.

It makes it more difficult to enjoy the Olympics this time--adds that bit of tension to everything. There is so much beauty and truth in China's culture, history and philosophies, but it's at such stark contrast with what's going been on. Anyone else feel similarly?

[imagirliegirl]

I can't believe those people were attacked 2 hours after the opening ceremonies. Tragic. :(

[bookworm]

I agree that the opening drum sequence was a military display, and I found it chilling. It reminded me of the demonstrations in Red Square.

So far, I don't think it has impacted my enjoyment of the Olympics, although I did wonder if the "glitch" playing the US national anthem for Michael Phelps was deliberate, which I never would have wondered without the other gamesmanship that has been going on (e.g. Bush criticized China's human rights practices, then his plane was delayed several hours getting into the country). Probably it was just a tech issue.

[Delta]

I also thought the glitch was very suspicious.

I have to admit I liked the Opening Ceremonies in spite of myself. I was pretty cynical and not prepared to even be open minded about it, but it was pretty cool. I actually did not get the military display vibe from the drums, though now I totally see it. The goose-stepping during the flag raising was pretty...jarring.

[KK812]

I agree that the opening drum sequence was a military display, and I found it chilling. It reminded me of the demonstrations in Red Square.

So far, I don't think it has impacted my enjoyment of the Olympics, although I did wonder if the "glitch" playing the US national anthem for Michael Phelps was deliberate, which I never would have wondered without the other gamesmanship that has been going on (i.e. Bush criticized China's human rights practices, then his plane was delayed several hours getting into the country). Probably it was just a tech issue.



I thought the same thing! The anthem was off at the beginning and then cut short at the end.

[imagirliegirl]

I also thought the glitch was very suspicious.


OMG that's what I said when we saw it happen! Glad I'm not the only conspiracy theorist.

[imagirliegirl]

Interesting ...

Bela Karolyi incensed about underage rules (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/gymnastics/news?slug=ap-gym-karolyi-ages&prov=ap&type=lgns)

BEIJING (AP)—Bela Karolyi seethed as he watched the Chinese women compete Sunday.

...

“They are using half-people,” Karolyi said. “One of the biggest frustrations is, what arrogance. These people think we are stupid.

“We are in the business of gymnastics and we know what a kid of 14 or 15 or 16 looks like. You don’t have to be a gymnastics coach to know what they look like at 16.”

...

“They do good gymnastics and are a good service for the sport,” he said of the Chinese. “They have the ultimate effective training program. That’s why I am more upset that they are cheating. They don’t need cheating. They would be just as good a lineup of eligible athletes.”

If this is true, what a sham.

[Dizzy]

Bela Karolyi also said while talking to Costas that the judging for the U.S. gymnastics has been unfair. Shawn Johnson had an incredible beam routine in the qualifying round and only got a 9.0 on execution...? The Argentine judge gave her an 8.8 :eek: But the routine was executed near perfectly. It does make one wonder...

[imagirliegirl]

Scoring is much more subjective than it should be. I'm not really sure how they can control that, but I wish they'd find a way.

[Scooter]

Interesting ...

Bela Karolyi incensed about underage rules (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/gymnastics/news?slug=ap-gym-karolyi-ages&prov=ap&type=lgns)

If this is true, what a sham.
Oh, this has to be true. Have you seen the girls on that team? Some of them look like they're closer to 12 than 14, even.

This has been an issue for years, though. I remember a couple Olympics ago (Sydney? Atlanta?) there being a girl on the Chinese team who was so obviously young that they were even saying she still had her "milk teeth" (baby teeth). Now how old could she really have been, with baby teeth?!

[am_81]

I was watching the womens' gymnastics last night and was wondering the same exact thing about China's team. Almost all those girls looked way young . . . . I was guessing around 12-ish, but one looked closer to 8 or 9!

[SiValleySteph]

This has been an issue for years, though. I remember a couple Olympics ago (Sydney? Atlanta?) there being a girl on the Chinese team who was so obviously young that they were even saying she still had her "milk teeth" (baby teeth). Now how old could she really have been, with baby teeth?!

That was a North Korean gymnast in 1992.

Her wikipedia page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Gwang_Suk)

This link (http://gymblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/how-old-was-kim-gwang-suk-really/) has a video of her amazing bar routine from those Olympics.

I really think only the one Chinese girl looked younger and you really can't tell for sure. If they have proof other than "looks", than I'm all for investigating it. But you can't tell based on looks.

[IrishEyes]

The problem is that the record of an athlete's official age is the passport issued by the athlete's country. Even though there is supposedly information on the web that some of the Chinese gymnasts may be younger than 16, if the Chinese government has issued them passports that say they are 16, then that's what the IOC accepts.

As far as the scoring, it was changed to make it less susceptible to subjective judging, but obviously not enough!

[imagirliegirl]

The problem is that the record of an athlete's official age is the passport issued by the athlete's country. Even though there is supposedly information on the web that some of the Chinese gymnasts may be younger than 16, if the Chinese government has issued them passports that say they are 16, then that's what the IOC accepts.


I was reading somewhere how falsifying those documents isn't unheard of. That's just too bad.

[Lucy Van Pelt]

I knew of Alexandra Marinescu having her age falsified by the Romanian officials, but apparently there have been several....and at least one incident by China.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_controversies_in_gymnastics

[miaclear]

The one girl on the China team who was 20 looked young too....maybe 16 or 17. But then again she was probably in the '04 Olympics as a 16 year old so she had to be 20 this time around.

[imagirliegirl]

The men's gymnastics team is doing so well! I'm going to have to stay up late to see what happens. :)

Shoot! They blew it on the pommel. I wonder how well they would have done with the Hamms. At least they get something, though.

[Scooter]

SiValleySteph, thanks for figuring out who I was vaguely remembering! :) I can't believe it was 16 yrs ago. No wonder I got the country wrong. But yeah, that's right, she was competing with no front teeth and they said they'd been knocked out in an accident on the bars. Maybe that was true, but it didn't help her look any older!

The scoring has been really slow, but it's good to see the judges at their computer screens carefully scoring the routines. Better slow than inaccurate, although that's up for debate, too. I commented the other night to DH that the scores were probably taking a long time because a gov't official has to approve them before they go up on the board.

[imagirliegirl]

Spanish basketball team poses for offensive pic (http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/blog/fourth_place_medal/post/Spanish-basketball-team-poses-for-offensive-pict?urn=oly,100152)

Good grief. :rolleyes:

Spain's Olympic basketball team posed for an advertisement prior to the Games which appears to show all its players slanting their eyes, a move that could offend its Olympic hosts in Beijing. The ads, for a Spanish courier company, appeared in the Spanish-language newspaper La Marca.

[Delta]

Highly, highly disturbing (but not all that surprising):

BEIJING (AP) — Martial arts student Cheng Jianghua only saw the army barracks he stayed in and the stadium where he performed at the spectacular Olympics opening ceremony. But his sacrifices were minor — other performers were injured, fainted from heatstroke or forced to wear adult diapers so the show could go on.

Filmmaker Zhang Yimou, the ceremony's director, insisted in an interview with local media that suffering and sacrifice were required to pull off the Aug. 8 opening, which involved wrangling nearly 15,000 cast and crew. Only North Korea could have done it better, he said.

Cheng and 2,200 other carefully chosen pugilist prodigies spent an average of 16 hours a day, every day, rehearsing a synchronized tai-chi routine involving high kicks, sweeping lunges and swift punches. They lived for three months in trying conditions at a restricted army camp on the outskirts of Beijing.

"We never went out during the time we were training," Cheng, 20, told the AP in a phone interview. "Our school is quite strict. When we stay in school we can't go out on our own, let alone when we're at a military camp."

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5g9kbAlfUWyxb6Y1vucS7TF8krrtgD92LP94G0

[Delta]

BEIJING — Jacques Rogge is so bought, so compromised, the president of the IOC doesn’t have the courage to criticize China for telling a decade of lies to land itself these Olympic Games.

All the promises made to get these Games — on Tibet, Darfur, pollution, worker safety, freedom of expression, dissident rights — turned out to be phony, perhaps as phony as the Chinese gymnasts’ birthdates Rogge was way too scared to investigate.

One of the most powerful men in sports turned the world away from his complicity. Instead, he has flexed his muscles by unloading on a powerless sprinter from a small island nation.

Rogge’s ripping of Usain Bolt’s supposed showboating in two of the most electrifying gold-medal performances of these Games has to be one of the most ill-timed and gutless acts in the modern history of the Olympics.http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/beijing/track_field/news;_ylt=AkpQf0wJQZA_vCvkh4yTstu7KZt4?slug=dw-rogge082108&prov=yhoo&type=lgns&print=1

[phoenics]

Finally!!



IOC to Launch Investigation Into Age of Chinese Gymnasts

The International Olympic Committee will investigate whether the Chinese women's gymnastics team that won the gold medal had underage athletes, saying "more information has come to light."

"If there is a question mark and we have a concern, which we do, we ask the governing body of any sport to look into it," IOC spokeswoman Giselle Davies said Friday.

Messages for the International Gymnastics Federation were not immediately returned.

Questions about the ages of at least three of the athletes on China's team have swirled for months. Online records and newspaper accounts suggest three Chinese gymnasts -- He Kexin, Jiang Yuyuan and Jang Yilin -- may be as young as 14, but Chinese passport records show they meet the age rules. A gymnast must be 16 in an Olympic year to compete at the games.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/21/ioc-to-launch-investigati_n_120519.html

[isign]

I wasn't fond of his style afterwards, but he won, fair and square, and kicked butt doing it. Congrats.

I just saw a glimpse of the gymnastic thing on the news - it's about time! While we're at it, can we look at the unfair scoring of the Chinese team as well? How can you land on your knees and get a medal??

[phoenics]

I wasn't fond of his style afterwards, but he won, fair and square, and kicked butt doing it. Congrats.

I just saw a glimpse of the gymnastic thing on the news - it's about time! While we're at it, can we look at the unfair scoring of the Chinese team as well? How can you land on your knees and get a medal??

I know! And she practically fell on her FACE! The scoring was so jacked up. Why NOT try a stunt with an insane difficulty level and fall flat on your face. Apparently doing something PERFECTLY with less difficulty won't win with the stupid scoring.

It's a traveshamockery.