How do you feel about unions? [Archive]

Rancid13

08-04-2005, 02:50 PM

I don't know a whole lot about unions, but I know that in some areas of the workforce they can be invaluable. That being said, I don't support unions one bit and would never ever consider working within one. If employees of a store go on strike (like the supermarket strike in SoCal last year) I will still shop there. No picketing strikers will prevent me from entering and doing my regular shopping. The only reason I shopped at other supermarkets that weren't striking was for fresh produce, which the on-strike supermarkets didn't carry enough of. But I still shopped there for my regular staple grocery items.

Edited to add:

My brother actually ended up getting a job doing stocking at Ralph's during the supermarket strike last year and I was proud of him for doing so and pushing past the picket line to earn him and his family some much needed money.

wendalah

08-04-2005, 03:03 PM

Not for me. And I shopped at Ralphs during the supermarket strike, too.

Zelda Von Yitz

08-04-2005, 03:26 PM

We need them back.

Why?

There is NO job security. There's a cute litttle thing called "at will employment" that seems to be pretty much the rule at every company.

There's no more three warnings and you're out; thanks to at will employment, you can be let go for pretty much any reason management thinks of.

nordey

08-04-2005, 03:33 PM

bunny nose

08-04-2005, 03:41 PM

I am a member of the UFT and the AFT. But I am not a teacher, I am a paraprofessional. The union does absolutely nothing for us. We are considered the lowly people. We mean nothing to anyone unless a child dirties his/her pants or gets sick on themselves. I know some schools value their support staff a little more than that- but on the whole we all feel like peasants. The union will run at full speed to help a teacher, but not a para. I've been on medical leave since Dec and have been having so many problems with paperwork being misfiled and what not. I call the union for help and I get, "Well, we'll see what we can do." Luckily my payroll secretary is a wonderful woman who is helping me to no end to resolve matters.

Another thing I don't like is that they protect teachers to no end. If a teacher is accused of doing something wrong to a student- the teacher is reassigned to the district office and they sit there all day everyday doing nothing. Teachers who get "U" ratings repeatedly also get reassigned. I'm sorry- but then they complain that they don't have enough money to hire new teachers. Can we figure this out? Paying people at full salary to sit and read a newspaper all day? Huh?

Ok- that was a good rant and vent. Felt good. Thanks for this topic. I needed to let this out. Of course I don't know about other unions- so I can't say anything about them or assume they are the same.

Karen

WisWis

08-04-2005, 03:43 PM

HA! When I first read this thread I thought it said "How do you feel about onions?" Well I HATE them. But that's not what you wanted to know now is it?

My personal belief is that for MOST industries the usefulness of unions wore out long ago. However, I'm currently in the process of obtaining a teaching credential for the State of California so I'd better get used to the idea of belonging to a union if I expect to actually get a job teaching. :rolleyes:

Just wanted to say that I had no trouble finding a teaching job without belonging to a union (the NEA), and the same goes for both of my parents. I can't stand their political nature so I got my insurance through another organization. I have more coverage and support but pay about a third of the price. I understand why unions exist, but I don't ever see myself joining one.

ysolde

08-04-2005, 03:43 PM

I'm afraid I don't know much about unions, so I can't really comment. However, I am learning a lot from this thread!

snowzilla

08-04-2005, 03:48 PM

I understand that the existence of certain unions in certain industries and/or businesses may be beneficial. However, in MY experience at more than one employer, unions have not been a positive thing. I would not consider employment at a company that has a union.

The last company I worked for almost had a union come in, and there was a lot of drama during that time. In the end, the union was told to take a hike in an overwhelming vote by the employees.

Edited to add: In regards to the question of whether or not I will still shop somewhere in the midst of a strike - I suppose it depends on the circumstances. Right now, our phone company is on strike, and personally I wouldn't have any problem with crossing their lines to do my business. And it disgusted me to drive past one of their picket lines yesterday and see two children, no older than 12, holding up picket signs. They have NO business on the picket line, IMO.

nordey

08-04-2005, 03:51 PM

Just wanted to say that I had no trouble finding a teaching job without belonging to a union (the NEA), and the same goes for both of my parents. I can't stand their political nature so I got my insurance through another organization. I have more coverage and support but pay about a third of the price. I understand why unions exist, but I don't ever see myself joining one.

I don't thing the State will hire me to teach in a public school if I don't join the union (in California that is). I could be wrong.

WisWis

08-04-2005, 04:02 PM

I don't thing the State will hire me to teach in a public school if I don't join the union (in California that is). I could be wrong.

Yikes, I certainly hope that isn't the case! I can only speak for VA and PA, but neither can require you to join. I could understand if they required you to carry certain insurance, but that can be gotten from other sources. I would look into that very closely before I joined. The union reps I've met were VERY pushy and said almost anything to get people to sign up. It's gotten to the point where I sometimes feel harassed by both the reps and the members. Not a great way to act if they want me to join...

eponymous

08-04-2005, 04:04 PM

I think that unions, in theory, are a very good thing protecting workers against powerful management who can easily abuse them. However, a lot of what's developed in the past fifty years is past helping the worker and towards hurting the consumer. DH's sister is part of a community choir who had to break up because they could no longer afford to rent their performace space; the union contract with the space requires a three man team to be paid for eight hours of work to move the piano on and off the stage. There are plenty of shops where only one person is allowed to do a specified job and if they're at lunch or on vacation, no one else is allowed to tighten that screw. That's absurd and costs money. OTOH, unions have done many good things for workers' compensation (wages and benefits), as well as working conditions. Things were pretty bad before unions.

kris97

08-04-2005, 04:09 PM

I understand and appreciate their historic purpose-- increasing protection for workers who were exploited at every turn. But, honestly, I think they've far outlived their purpose. Do you know how difficult it is for certain union members to be fired, even if they've committed egregious crimes? The administrative steps are so onerous, that many times the powers that be would rather not take any action against employees. I sympathize with those who don't have job security, but I see "at will employment" as a two way street - it's what allows an employee to leave a job after two days without being sued for breaking their contract. And, really - having seen the rigamarole many unionized govt agencies have to go through to discipline or terminate a subpar employee, I wish we had more truly at-will employment, not less.

lawyergirl25

08-04-2005, 04:12 PM

I too like unions in theory, but not so much in practice. DH is part of a union that nationally does a lot to further employee interests, but whose local chapter absolutely stinks. The union officials at the local level have actually thrown in with plant management for the most part and it's a mess. Dealing with the union and his insanely politicized workplace is probably the main reason why DH will be so happy to leave once he has his degree.

We don't base our decisions on where to shop on whether they are union/non-union, or whether employees are on strike. I know that's kind of strange for a couple that depends on a union to a great extent. However, I don't think I will ever fully understand the animosity leveled at striking employees and the encouragement given to replacement workers, like they're on a crusade or something. Perhaps I will learn something that will help me understand as I continue reading responses to this thread.

boilermaker

08-04-2005, 04:35 PM

Like many others, I can understand and appreciate both the historical and theoretical need for unions. But I think that they have evolved into political powerhouses with money hungry leaders pushing personal agendas...to put it nicely :)

Both of my parents belong to unions as they work in education. Neither is a big fan and feel that having the union has hurt them way more than helped them. I have worked hand in hand with hourly workers at both union and non-union plants and have found the environments at the non-union plants to be happier, more productive and have more employee satisfaction than at the union plants.

kiddo

08-04-2005, 04:39 PM

I think unions have their good points and their bad. I firmly believe they were at one time necessary, but I think many have out lived their uselfullness since so much is now regulated by the government. However, I can't make a blanket statement about whether they are good or bad.

My father is an electrician and was a member of IBEW. He's had to go on strikes a few times, which helped them get better pay and benefits, so he feels pretty favorable towards them.

However, when my father was laid off due to work shortages, his work ethic didn't matter anymore. He would go to the bottom of the list. When a contractor needed to hire a few electricians, they would have to pick whoever was next in line, no matter how good or bad they were.

My DH is in a union. We both think it really stinks. He is an engineer, but the union is really there to help the mechanics. He had an issue with getting back pay that was owed him and he went to the union and they were no help. He ended up getting the pay on his own. However, a friend of his almost got fired for looking at porn at work (to a detriment of his real work), after several warnings. The union stuck up for him and he ended up getting a 1 week suspension without pay. And he still hasn't learned his leason.

Atlanta_eBride

08-04-2005, 05:03 PM

I'm not in favor of unions as they are no longer in sync with today's workers.

I have crossed a union line everyday for the past three months now. It's absolutley insane because this construction union is upset that some non-union workers got a bid on finishing out a suite in our office building. The union is picketing the tenate which I DON'T understand at all because it's the landlord that accepted the bid. Keep in mind that thuis is a 25-story building so I'm not exactly sure how effective they are really being - other than annoying. I live in the South and I don't know that anyone really cares as people just walk by them on the sidewalks and never take their literature.

Belm

08-04-2005, 05:45 PM

Hmmm, you asked a lot of questions about unions and I’m not sure if I can answer them all but here goes…

Companies are in business to make money. They answer to their shareholders and stockholders. If they could do their job with 1 employee, a monkey or hey even a child like they do in some countries!) then they would. It is their mission/responsibility to make a profit.

So, how do employees fit in? Who looks out for their concerns and needs? In many situations, the union does just that. Although, not all unions are great for employees, but really are all companies so for their employees, either?

One would hope that companies would take both their needs and their employees into consideration. But, I think that is sometimes too much to ask.

For what it’s worth, yes, we are a union family. We also try to shop union whenever possible. I personally like buying products or shopping at a grocery store that supports U.S. workers.

As far as the AFL-CIO goes, I’m not quite sure how I feel just yet. I understand why the Teamsters felt that they needed to leave, but I do wonder if the union leaders did everything that they can before they split off.

Belm

08-04-2005, 05:47 PM

I'm not in favor of unions as they are no longer in sync with today's workers.

Do you feel comfortable purchasing products fromcountries where they are little or no labor laws? Are you okay with purchasing clothes that are made in sweatshops? Or are you just talking about unions in the U.S.?

daydreamer

08-04-2005, 06:58 PM

Well, I certainly do believe unions are the reason we have the benefits we do today and yes, I think we take them for granted. I, also, do not think big business gives much thought to the workers.
Now, with that being said, I think in order to survive, one must adapt to the new time.
And I think that's what the unions are attempting to do.
Case in point (I hope I get this right), The March of Dimes orginated to stamp out
one disease (polio?) but now have evolved to cover many childhood ailments.
And with everything in America, once something becomes too big, it always becomes top heavy. It's a constant struggle.

wendalah

08-04-2005, 09:22 PM

Do you feel comfortable purchasing products fromcountries where they are little or no labor laws? Are you okay with purchasing clothes that are made in sweatshops? Or are you just talking about unions in the U.S.?

Are you comfortable with the fact that film professionals work non-union jobs due to the fact they need to pay rent, yet have the unions on their ass the minute they start to make appreciable money outside of the union? Do you go to the movie theater? Do you watch commercials on TV? How about MTV, VH1, CMT, BET? Are you OK with the fact that non-union film professionals are routinely worked 15-to-16 hour days with very little appreciation from the unions unless there is a tally-able amount of hours that might bring the union some sort of profit? You want to talk sweatshops, and you want to talk unions that don't give a flying f-ck unless they profit without reciprocal benefits? Go into the film industry.

It's so easy to talk about people crouching over sewing machines until you have a loved one who works in the film industry pumping out virtually everything you watch on TV.

And THAT is a big part of why I feel unions are bullshit. I live in Los Angeles and I am married to a film professional. I'll tell you lots of cute stories that have nothing to do with "Real Women Have Curves"-esque storylines.

wendalah

08-04-2005, 09:37 PM

I am sorry if I sound like an asshole. But I am so sick of the idea that unions are only about manufacturing. YOU come live in my house and rub the knots out of a film industry professional who works his butt off and has never had the union interested in him..."you need a certain amount of union hours...etc etc etc"...and gave him no help at all in either joining the union nor finding union work...but eventually tracked him down and harrassed him about working non-union jobs.

And worked non-union jobs why? Oh, gee, because he wanted to pay his rent.

So, turn your TV off and quit seeing movies. There's a good chance you'll be watching something made by non-union professionals.

Some film unions are better than others, and some are beneficial to a degree, but many of them are notoriously hard to work with.

I feel very strongly about this. Edited to soften it up a bit because I realize I went off the handle.

lawyergirl25

08-04-2005, 09:39 PM

Psst...villanelle75...you gonna give your opinion too? ;)

usafwife

08-04-2005, 10:14 PM

My father has been in a union for nearly 25 years. My father was a carpenter and is a member of the UBC. My grandfather (my mom's dad) was also a member for a great many years. My father became a business agent for his union. I grew up listening to my father talk about the unions. I even did two research papers for two different classes on the formation of the AFL-CIO. I learned more things by doing those papers.

Because my father was in a union, it did matter if a particular place was union or non-union. Case in point, a local grocery store was union and another one here wasn't. The union store had a picket and my father was one of those that walked. We never shopped at the non-union store until the other one closed down years later. I still do not like shopping at that store and hardly ever go there unless it's an emergency.

A store's policy regarding unions does play into whether or not I shop there. Same way with companies. I tend to stay away from those that aren't union. Unions have done a great many things for the American worker over the years. They improved the working conditions, the hours, the money, and benefits among other things.

wendalah

08-04-2005, 10:23 PM

I hate to keep harping on this, but:

"Unions have done a great many things for the American worker over the years. They improved the working conditions, the hours, the money, and benefits among other things."

Flick off your TV and go read a book.

ETA: I see you are a military wife. My husband has worked on a few non-union commericals for the U.S. Army. How do you feel about that? Do you watch TV nightly? Do you know which commercials and which television shows are done by union professionals and which aren't? And, Belm, I see from your past posts you're a punk-rock fan. My hubby has art directed quite a few videos for some of your fave bands...non-union. Are you going to boycott their music? What if I told you he started his work day at 6 a.m. and I didn't see him until midnight that night--and this sort of thing can go on because the film unions don't work to recruit members, nor enforce industry standards across the board--and non-union projects have no motive to enforce reasonable standards? Are you going to give up listening to these bands because they used non-union labor?

The film industry is all about long hours and pumping things out. And that's fine, that's the nature of it, people who work in it deal with it. But again, from what I've seen (not just DH) the unions have done little to regulate this industry and are simply there to do...what? Get a cut of union labor via expensive dues and get on the backs of those who work non-union gigs? I haven't figured it out.

You can absolutely get regulated hours and better rates through film unions; it's just that there's a lot of other red tape involved. And there's a surprising volume of non-union-produced entertainment out there. Union jobs use non-union labor all the time, too.

Oh, and another good one is the musicians' union. If you're a session player working various gigs, a musicians' union is a good thing. If you're a newly signed band to a record label, it's a waste of money. Yet, when my husband's band was signed to a major label, the musicians' union tracked them down and basically preyed on them to join. They did join and eventually realized later, "Why the hell are we paying $1500 a year for nothing?" The musicians' union probably got its start (I don't know) back in the '50s when musicians played sessions and in big bands and was useful then. It has pretty much evovled into non-useful for today's musicians in signed, label-controlled bands. If you're in a band on a label, you work for the label and you don't need a union to find you work or regulate your hours. It just doesn't work that way. You're making an album and you have the studio for x-hours, you go in and work until it's done.

I'm not trying to be a jerk. Just pointing out that this stuff isn't so cut and dried. Edited, again, to soften my language. And btw it's 3:30 a.m. and I just woke up and realized DH isn't home yet (he's working on a commercial shoot tonight). Gah!

ETA: He just got home and told me I'm a putzhead to be arguing this stuff on a message board, and to go to bed.

KKay

08-05-2005, 05:09 AM

The majority of my experience with unions is interfacing with the UAW. I do
believe unions have a purpose, but it should be for the betterment of the company as a whole. I don't see that happening with the automotive industry.

Ford and GM have a long way to go before have cut their spending on health and retirement to the low levels of Toyota and Honda. As long as GM & Ford outspend Toyota and Honda on employee benefits ( including retirement) then the Japanese companies will always have a significant price advantage and be able to outspend Detroit on R&D, NVH, Marketing, frequency of restyling, and other "perceived quality" marketing issues. That spells increasing sales for Japan, and declining ones for Detroit. It's a downward spiral, and the unions have no clue as to how to protect the FUTURE of today's auto worker. The unions need to take a hard look at the next 10-15 years (instead of the next 2-5) The unions are just fooling their dues-paying members if they pretend to be helping without taking a long-term look at the whole picture. Instead of asking for more, they need to cobmine forces with Detroit to create more long-term revenue. Then Detroit could give more. They shold also work with politicans to equalize spending differences between Detroit & Japan on Retriement benefits & Health care. This short-term answer every couple years doesn't change the fact that Detroit keeps losing jobs, profits, and market shrare to foreign-owned Corporations

Belm

08-05-2005, 05:19 AM

"Unions have done a great many things for the American worker over the years. They improved the working conditions, the hours, the money, and benefits among other things."

Unions in the U.S. have done a great many things. I don't think that she meant to say that every single Union group in the U.S. has made the lives better for their employees. But, if you take Unions as a whole, they have made lives better for the U.S. workforce (union or not).

You can absolutely get regulated hours and better rates through film unions;

Since I don't obliviously know much about the film industry as you do, why don't they do this? Why do they continue to work crazy hours? Why don't they work together to get better benefits/pay/more stable working conditions?

While I know it isn't that easy, if they wanted better working conditions, wouldn't it be worth working toward?

I never said (nor implied) that unions are so cut and dry. As a whole, *I* think that that they do more good for the employees that they work for. (To me) it is seems that you are not happy about your DH's industry and that perhaps better working conditions would make you both happy (but maybe I'm reading too much into it).

I also would love to hear more about what punk bands don't use union labor. Since so many punk bands preach that they are pro-union, I'm shocked that they aren't using union crews.

dionysia

08-05-2005, 05:50 AM

There's a cute litttle thing called "at will employment" that seems to be pretty much the rule at every company.

There's no more three warnings and you're out; thanks to at will employment, you can be let go for pretty much any reason management thinks of.Psst, at will employment isn't a 'company' thing; in most cases, it's a state law thing.

There are very few 'right-to-work' states.

What at-will means is that yes, you can be fired for a good reason, a bad reason, or no reason at all, as long as it's not an illegal reason. But the shoe is on the other foot as well: you can quit your job with no notice for any reason at all.

Di

dionysia

08-05-2005, 05:56 AM

hey Wendy--

I do think you need to chill a little here.

I understand that this is a topic that's near and dear to your heart, but please understand that not every knows the ins and outs of every single union. Most unions are manufacturing-based, so by default most people with union knowledge will know about those types of unions rather than entertainment industry-based ones.

I also did not see Belm attack anyone, yet your comments about "turn the tv off and go read a book" were unwarranted.

I'd also argue that a lot of US labor law is based on efforts made by unions. Trust me, I know the history of this stuff. ;)

Di

greenbunny

08-05-2005, 06:48 AM

I have mixed feelings about unions. DH is a teacher, and it royally pisses me off that he can either join the union, and pay full dues, or not join the union, and pay 80% dues. What kind of choice is that? So he doesn't get the rewards of membership, but still has to hand over hundreds of dollars?

And he is considered a salaried substitute, with no contract and benefits only September through May. What, exactly, is the teacher's union doing for us? I haven't seen them around lately, helping DH get his contract. The only time we hear anything is when they want money.

It also pisses me off that I bust balls all year long, working hours and hours more than him, and because of this union he gets three times as many vacation and sick days as me, when he only work half as much.

I do agree about musicians' unions. Our band has been told we can't play certain clubs unless we join the union--and the dues would cost about five times what we make in a year of playing. We're doing this for fun--I refuse to get a second job, so I can afford union dues, so I can go enjoy my hobby of playing music. (*@#^%&)@#

Hmm. Guess those aren't mixed feelings after all.

Ohana

08-05-2005, 08:11 AM

While I agree that unions have helped the American worker to a great degree in the past and still help to some extent in the present, they really irritate the snot out of me.

I work for a company that is run by two extremely powerful, money grubbing unions. One union represents the manufacturing workforce and the other the engineers (there are other smaller unions representing other workers, but these are the two main unions). The rhetoric and bs is unending. I'm so tired of hearing the unions tell their people that they've done "the right thing" and this contract, we have to stick it to the company and make sure they do the right thing.

Puh-leaze. Where else can someone with only a high school diploma make 30 bucks an hour with full medical, dental, vision (all for very little employee contribution), pension, AND 401k matching? Where else can this same employee get time and a half for the first 2 hours of OT, then double time after that?

And don't get me started on the engineering union. DH was required to join it with his new job (it's a closed shop for manufacturing and engineering jobs). He pays his dues every month directly from his paycheck, and yet we keep getting past due notices and are told every month that the union is beginning termination proceedings against him because he hasn't paid his dues. Yes, they're telling him that they the union are firing him from the company because he hasn't paid his measly 27 bucks a month. Which they have sitting right in their bank account because they deducted it directly from his paycheck. Gimme a stinking break. And since this year is a contract year for both unions, it's ridiculous around here. But you better believe I will cross both picket lines this winter, because I have to pay my mortgage and feed my family.

msnicolea

08-05-2005, 08:40 AM

I think that it's important to note, too, that there are vast differences among unions. People seem to be interested in making some sweeping statements about "unions" when, in reality, the UAW is not the Steel Workers is not the Nurses is not the Teachers. . .

I support all unions in theory, some in practice. I feel very strongly that working people need fair and just representation and treatment and sometimes a union is the only way to insure this happens!

Belm

08-05-2005, 08:42 AM

I feel very strongly that working people need fair and just representation and treatment and sometimes a union is the only way to insure this happens!

I completly agree.

gayle

08-05-2005, 08:43 AM

Belm said
"Companies are in business to make money. They answer to their shareholders and stockholders. If they could do their job with 1 employee, a monkey or hey even a child like they do in some countries!) then they would. It is their mission/responsibility to make a profit."

ITA.

I am sorry, but without unions, most American companies would not give a rats butt about the needs of employees.

I am very pro union, although as with any other institution, there can be corruption and imperfection. Nonetheless, I believe that unions are one of the few things that protect the American worker.

And no, I will NOT cross a picket line.

msnicolea

08-05-2005, 08:46 AM

I would never cross a picket line, either!

villanelle75

08-05-2005, 08:52 AM

Psst...villanelle75...you gonna give your opinion too?

I meant to come back and post before I went home yesterday, but I got sidetracked wtih actual work. It's rare, but everyonce in a while, it happens! Anyway, I HATE people like me who post a topic and don't shre their views, so please know it was unintentional!

Anyway, I feel that unions were highly useful. "Were" being the operative word. I think before the was government regulation of working conditions, the unions were invaluabel to not only workers, but to our society as a whole because the unions are the ones that forced Americans to decide how we wanted our working class to be treated. But now that we have minimum wages, regulations on overtime, child labor laws, disablity pay, anit-discrimnation n hiring rules, workeplace conditions requirements, OSHA, etc., I really see the unions as having out-lived their original and wonderful intentions. IMO, instead of transition like the March of Dimes did from Polio causes to childhood disease causes- another worthwhile purpose, Unions went from championing the American workers' basic rights to essentially being what I see as almost a legalized extortion or blackmail entity. They have so much power that they are able to make what iI see as often unreasonable demands, and employers are forced to capitulate because the unions will reek havoc on business of they don't. And I think this was a great strategy and a reasonabel approach when the unions were demanding that meat factories make changes that would keep employees from being maimed, but now it seems to be more out of greed.

Since we are at reasonabely low unemployement in this country, I generally believe that if there is a strike and "scabs" are willing to work in the same conditions as the strikers, then that signifies that fact that that business isnt' asking or offering anythign unreasonable of it's workers. If other people (when unemployment isn't rampant) are willing to accept the same pay and conditions that the union is essentially boycotting, that tells me it's the union that's unreasonable, not the employer.

I don't care if a place is union or not when I shop, although all other things being equal, if I knew one was union and the other was not, I suppose I would chose the non-union shop. I definitely went to my striking grocery store here in SoCal after the initial week of the strike when all the workers were frighteningly angry and I felt unsafe. Beyond that, I acutally enjoyed showing my support for the store's "side" because I felt that their offer to the workers was more than fair.

Edited to add that I know there are many unions and that any generality about all of them is bound to be inaccurate. These are just my views on the general union concept and how some, but not all, unions often behave. Whiel there are certianly good and honset unions out there, I firmly believe that government regulations have gotten rid of the need for unions.

Chimichanga

08-05-2005, 08:52 AM

I grew up with unions, so I think they are great.

My dad is a tinner, my mom is a postal carrier. My sister and I were part of the Food Workers union (we worked at a grocery store). DH is a Teamster (part-time).

I do not think our lives would be what they are without the union. My dad had steady employment for most of our childhood. Being in construction you can't work if there's no building. Construction is a huge at-will industry, and it was nice to know he wouldn't be fired for no reason.

DH gets paid WONDERFULLY for a part-time job. He gets free benefits and insurance that is outstanding.

I try to shop union, but sometimes we will go to Sam's Club or Wal-Mart when needed.

I have never and will never cross a picket line. There was a picket line outside of my high school once and my sister and I would not cross it. I have joined in on numerous pickets with my parents.

There was talk of a potential strike at my grocery store growing up. A lot of the kids working there said they'd cross the picket line if it happened. My sister and I channelled our Norma Rae and convinced them it wouldn't be good if they crossed.

artist

08-05-2005, 08:56 AM

I am VERY pro-union as is my whole family. None of us will ever cross a picket line. My dad and BIL have had to go on strike before and it's really tough on the family to make ends meet when on strike. It really pisses me off when members of the union cross the picket line. A few weeks later when they get fair pay, benefits, etc. it is BECAUSE of those union members who did NOT cross the picket line. Those who did NOT cross ALWAYS remember which ones DID cross. But I won't cross any picket line. I also tend to boycott certain products like Hormel, Walmart, etc.

I get really peeved by anti-union folks. They come across as very greedy and "assholish" to me.

Oh, and I am a big Pete Seeger fan! "Which side are you on boys? Which side are you on?" (Okay, Pete Seeger did not WRITE that song, but he sure did sing it!)

A Song by Florence Patton Reece

Come all of you good workers
Good news to you I'll tell
Of how that good old union
Has come in here to dwell

Chorus
Which side are you on?
Which side are you on?
Which side are you on?
Which side are you on?

My daddy was a miner
And I'm a miner's son
And I'll stick with the union
Till every battle's won

They say in Harlan County
There are no neutrals there
You'll either be a union man
Or a thug for J.H. Blair

Oh, workers can you stand it?
Oh, tell me how you can
Will you be a lousy scab
Or will you be a man?

Don't scab for the bosses
Don't listen to their lies
Us poor folks haven't got a chance
Unless we organize

Notes
Pete Seeger in an introduction to "Which Side Are You On?" on his record "Cant You See This System's Rotten Through And Through" says:
"Maybe the most famous song it was ever my privilege to know was the one written by Mrs Florence Reece. Her husband Sam was an organiser in that "bloody" strike in Harlan County, Kentucky in 1932.
They got word that the company gun-thugs were out to kill him, and he got out of his house, I think out the back door, just before they arrived. And Mrs Reece said they stuck their guns into the closets, into the beds, even into the piles of dirty linen. One of her two little girls started crying and one of the men said "What are you crying for? We're not after you we're after your old man"

After they had gone she felt so outraged she tore a calendar off the wall and on the back of it wrote the words and put them to the tune of an old hard-shelled Baptist hymn tune, although come to think of it the hymn tune used an old English ballad melody ... And her two little girls used to go singing it in the union halls."

msnicolea

08-05-2005, 09:01 AM

http://www.newint.org/issue318/Images/classicpic.jpg

kiddo

08-05-2005, 09:16 AM

I have an honest question.

What do unions do for workers today? In what ways do they protect workers that is not already regulated by the government?

KristyK

08-05-2005, 09:16 AM

Been in a union, and NOT in a union. How do I feel about unions....

Well I agree with what most of the posters said, they used to be a good thing, but now really aren't much help. I've been in a union when I worked at AT&T. When they broke from the baby bells they had many problems, the unions helped. After a few years it didn't really do much good. The company chose to move a majority of the operations to the south, where they are all "right to work" states, and many of those that I worked with, including me, lost jobs. The union bosses all kept their jobs, most of them worked for the union more than at their regular jobs anyway, so it didn't matter to them.

THe union hospital here makes $5 less an hour than I do, and you have to be in the union, whether you want too or not. They also have to pay union dues. I am lucky enough that I have a boss who treats his employees well, without a union. Our biggest problem being non-union is that the group politics and whoever thinks they are in charge that week gets on peoples nerves, and usually the boss has no clue.

My father was union. He was a teamster and retired as a teamster. He's got really crappy benefits, and they end up paying a lot of money every month for their health care problems. Money they shouldn't have to put out since my father paid to belong to a union (for over 30 years), that was supposed to help them when they retired. They get more grief than it's worth most months fighting the teamsters and their benefits program.

When our Safeway was talking about going on strike, I would cross that line in a minute. I understand they've belonged to a union for years, and I love those checkers there, but...they have no business making more money without a college education, than a Registered Nurse who busted her butt for 4 years in college and works to SAVE peoples lives, just because they are in a union. Their biggest complaint, as they make $20 or more an hour, was that they'd have to start paying for their healthcare benefits. Well, welcome to the real world, most people have to pay "something" for their benefits. They don't even have to use a register anymore, they stand there and a computer does the work. It doesn't seem fair, does it?

camberne

08-05-2005, 09:31 AM

My husband works for a company that is weird, quite honestly. He tried to join the Union a couple of times and no one from the Union ever got back with him, so he's not a member of the union; however the company and ALL the employees are bound by the Union regulations. The insurance is fantastic, and the pay is supposed to be increased next year quite considerably from what I understand. Without the Union, I honestly fear what this company would do to my husband. As it stands now, he works most weeks 7 days a week... if not 7, then 6. The Union contract stipulates that he can't work more than 17 consecutive hours. They have worked him longer than 17 consecutive hours and would do so again if I did not contact the Union.

My husband is an electrician working at an industrial plant. He works with/on heavy machinery. One of the other maintenance workers (two years from retirement) had the skin and muscle on his hand literally ripped off the bone when he slipped after a 14 hour day. I honestly don't want this to happen to my husband. Without the Union rules and regulations, the Company wouldn't give a damn about the employees... oh, and we ARE in a "right to work" state - they can fire my husband at any time (which is why he generally doesn't complain about the hours... I'm the one who calls his boss and tells him that my husband needs a day off to rest).

Maybe there are some Unions that are past their usefullness... I'm just glad that my husband has someone besides me watching his back. Like Brenna said - Companies are in business to make money. They answer to their shareholders and stockholders. If they could do their job with 1 employee, a monkey or hey even a child like they do in some countries!) then they would. It is their mission/responsibility to make a profit.This is VERY true for my husband's company.

Atlanta_eBride

08-05-2005, 09:32 AM

Do you feel comfortable purchasing products from countries where they are little or no labor laws? Are you okay with purchasing clothes that are made in sweatshops? Or are you just talking about unions in the U.S.?

I'm just talking about unions in the US. As I see in earlier posts many people who rely on the unions helping them aren't getting what they need when they ask for it. Thats' why I feel they aren't in synch, they promise to be there to help out and when they are really needed they seem to disapear. When they make it out to be there for the "little guy" and they only appear to be out for the masses.

As far as purchasing, I do my very best to buy American products such as I own only American cars, shop certain brands, and I am very aware of the businesses I associate my company with.

--------

OK, I have a question for those of you not willing to cross picket lines. I DO understand your reasoning for not wanting to but what would you do in my current situation if it were you? There has been, for the last three months, a picket line in the front of our building because of a dispute in another suite (see earlier post). This has nothing to do with my company and yet if I were to honor it I couldn't do my job, pay my employees, etc. Would you cross it if you worked in the building? What if you were here to visit me (as a client) or another person in the building that was completely unrelated? Just curious.

artist

08-05-2005, 09:35 AM

Maybe there are some Unions that are past their usefullness... I'm just glad that my husband has someone besides me watching his back. Like Brenna said Quote:
Companies are in business to make money. They answer to their shareholders and stockholders. If they could do their job with 1 employee, a monkey or hey even a child like they do in some countries!) then they would. It is their mission/responsibility to make a profit.
- This is VERY true for my husband's company.

I have to agree with Brenna as well.

I would love for either DH or I to be union members. If either of us are considering a new job and union membership is part of the job, we both think of this as a plus.

eponymous

08-05-2005, 09:35 AM

What if you were here to visit me (as a client) or another person in the building that was completely unrelated? Just curious.

If I understood the situation like you've explained it, I would have no problems crossing it. First, it's not related to why I'm there. Second, I respect a strike/picket line that is working against its management, but I don't place the same respect for a union that's picketing because another firm was given the job.

lawyergirl25

08-05-2005, 09:38 AM

What do unions do for workers today? In what ways do they protect workers that is not already regulated by the government?
My parents are both union stewards in the USPS (I can't believe I forgot to mention that!). I know they've fought harder in the past five years than they ever have before to protect their fellow mail carriers' rights. Although the USPS regulations/contracts state that a mail carrier cannot be on the street for longer than a certain number of hours a day, or later than a certain time (I assume for safety reasons), they are constantly battling supervisors trying to force people into overtime or into staying out until all hours (sometimes 8 or 9 in the evening) to deliver mail. They don't let people take their sick time when they need it. They refuse to accept documented medical restrictions because the expense and hassle of finding a replacement is too high.

I realize this is all at the local level, but I think too often people focus on unions as a whole or an industry as a whole and forget that in some workplaces, every day is a struggle between management and the workers, with each trying to get an upper hand. I don't think the employees would be on an even playing field if they did not have a union.

Stephanie

08-05-2005, 09:39 AM

I'm really late in coming in and haven't read all of the comments, but wanted to add that my union has been always been great. I am a teacher and the union tends to be very much needed in our district. When the district decided that they were going to try and make up for their money mismanagement and pink slip 265 of us, the union had our backs the entire time and got every one of our jobs back in the fall. They have been great in contract talks because the district tends to think about what is best for them, not the students and teachers. Our union was very quick to point out that there would be problems if they tried to cut our pay by 10%, but the school board still got their $900 a month allowance for their cars. The biggest pro I've seen is when parents file a complaint with the district. A fellow teacher had a relentless parent who tried to do everything in their power to ruin her reputation (complaints, lying to the principal, etc.) and the union handled all the meetings and helped the teacher to deal with everything.

That being said, my husband also belongs to a union because he is a fireman and they have also been great. For us, it comes down to job security when the contract talks start because it tends to be all about saving money (that they have mismanaged) and doing what is best for the big guys, but screwing us. I like that someone who knows how to talk the talk is doing all the negotiating for me. Luckily, my union understands that paycuts, benefit cost increases, and raising class sizes will equal unhappy and burned out teachers in a short time and they fight for us every year.

Atlanta_eBride

08-05-2005, 09:44 AM

If I understood the situation like you've explained it, I would have no problems crossing it. First, it's not related to why I'm there. Second, I respect a strike/picket line that is working against its management, but I don't place the same respect for a union that's picketing because another firm was given the job.

As *I* understand it that is why these people are here picketing. The thing is though if you saw them and didn't know why they were here would you hesitate? The reason I'm questioning this now is we had someone scheduled for an interview last week that never showed, called or anything. I do realize that they could have bailed for some other reason but this thread got me to thinking could it possibly have been the picketers outside. It had never even crossed my mind.

artist

08-05-2005, 09:45 AM

OK, I have a question for those of you not willing to cross picket lines. I DO understand your reasoning for not wanting to but what would you do in my current situation if it were you? There has been, for the last three months, a picket line in the front of our building because of a dispute in another suite (see earlier post). This has nothing to do with my company and yet if I were to honor it I couldn't do my job, pay my employees, etc. Would you cross it if you worked in the building? What if you were here to visit me (as a client) or another person in the building that was completely unrelated? Just curious.

Well, I don’t know enough I guess about your particular situation.

However, I did feel conflicted about what to do when the U of M clerical workers (which at the time included my BIL) were on strike. How would I attend classes as I was in school there at the time?

Well, the union workers assured the students to continue attending classes. A few professors held classes off-campus. All of my classes were still on campus, however many of my professors had “office hours” at a local café or someplace off-campus. I wore a button in support of the workers and attended a few of their rallies and put a sign up in my apartment supporting them. That particular strike was one that affected my family as my BIL was a union member and this strike of course affected my sister, BIL, and nieces.

artist

08-05-2005, 09:48 AM

As *I* understand it that is why these people are here picketing. The thing is though if you saw them and didn't know why they were here would you hesitate? The reason I'm questioning this now is we had someone scheduled for an interview last week that never showed, called or anything. I do realize that they could have bailed for some other reason but this thread got me to thinking could it possibly have been the picketers outside. It had never even crossed my mind.

That could be. If you still want to interview these people, maybe you can call them and see if that was the reason? (Though they probably should have called.) Anyway, could you in the future interview people off-site? What are these interviews for? Jobs? Or is it an apt. that people are looking at? I don't know if I am understanding the whole picture here.

Atlanta_eBride

08-05-2005, 09:55 AM

That could be. If you still want to interview these people, maybe you can call them and see if that was the reason? (Though they probably should have called.) Anyway, could you in the future interview people off-site? What are these interviews for? Jobs? Or is it an apt. that people are looking at? I don't know if I am understanding the whole picture here.

I just wrote it off as not being interested in the job they were applying for. As you stated, they probably should have called to let me know had that been the case. If a person had a problem with it I would most definately interviewed them off-site but as an employer I'd be concerned with hiring them becasue this has already gone on for 3 months. What if they still didn't want to cross the line if they got the job and this went on forever? I would hope an explaination that it wasn't us would suffice.

artist

08-05-2005, 10:03 AM

Yes, they should have called, but I guess I meant you could do that with future applicants. As for what to do if you hire a pro-union person? Well, maybe those people won't accept the job based on that situation.

Belm

08-05-2005, 10:39 AM

What do unions do for workers today? In what ways do they protect workers that is not already regulated by the government?

I can’t speak for all unions, but my husband’s aviation union had guidelines on how many hours they could work. In addition, they tried their hardest to protect their employees from the holiday/pay/benefits cuts. (Although, as hard as they tried, they were still slashed. As a side note – upper management salaries/pay/benefits were not cut.) They also tried (in vain) to work with management on ways to help cut costs from the company without immediately cutting workers after 9/11. In the end, though as hard as his union tried, they still ended up closing bases, cutting off benefits and laying off employees. But, without the union, I wonder how much faster/sooner that would have happened. He was (and is) very thankful that their union tried on their behalf to work with management as much as possible to help their company and keep their jobs.

Atlanta e-bride
I don’t quite get why they are striking? Because they didn’t get to bid on a job? Or because they didn’t get the job? It doesn’t make much sense to me to strike for that.

wendalah

08-05-2005, 10:39 AM

Oh, I was in a debating mood last night. Di is right, I need to chill.

I also would love to hear more about what punk bands don't use union labor. Since so many punk bands preach that they are pro-union, I'm shocked that they aren't using union crews.

This is totally a good question. For the most part I would guess it's not really on their radar. Unless you are a musician who is 100% involved in every aspect of your career (a la Ani DiFranco) it's hard to monitor everything that's going on because so MUCH is going on. And to be honest, hiring non-union crew isn't always a bad thing in this case. Because getting into the union can be difficult, hiring non-union crew can ensure a recent film-school grad can work and get experience. Not ideal, but it's a tough industry.

Belm

08-05-2005, 10:42 AM

Kiddo - Your question got me thinking about where I would like to see unions (in the U.S) in the workforce.

I personally would like to see it in the waste managment industry. Working with that everyday, I don't see how employees deal with it. I couldn't do what they are doing (and smelling) for such little pay and crappy benefits (if any).

Atlanta_eBride

08-05-2005, 11:22 AM

Belm, my *understanding* is that they didn't get the job. I can't for the life of me understand why they are striking for that. I should go down and grab a flyer again to find out what its saying - all I remember is them calling the tenant a rat. IMO, if they are striking for something more ligit they are still striking the wrong company because it was the building management's choice for who builds out the suite. I have no idea who worked on ours even though I helped design the layout because I didn't contract it out.

Belm

08-05-2005, 11:24 AM

If that's the case, then that is just absurd! I can't image why a company would want to strike for not getting a job.

ignutzz

08-05-2005, 11:35 AM

If that's the case, then that is just absurd! I can't image why a company would want to strike for not getting a job.

But this happens all the time. DH is the construction manager for a new building in NYC. They're using all non-union labor. If the local unions found out about it, and felt it was worth they're time, they would be picketing the site everyday just because the work wasn't given to them.

The above is my gripe with unions. It's SO ridiuclous to think that one group of people deserves work over another. Everyone deserves a job, and in my experience the unions in NYC are notoriously difficult to get into, so what good do they do the illegal immigrants that are just trying to make it here? Not to mention, just because you're in a union, it doesn't mean you have work! My good friend's brother is in two unions, working two jobs, just to make ends meet. Everytime he leaves a job in the construction union, his status drops and he has to go find his own work because number #500 will be given work over #1000; he can only maintain his seniority as long as he's on one particular job site.

A good portion of laborers on job sites here in the city are unioners working on the side becaue their union won't/can't give them work. So again, what good are they doing for anyone?

DH was offered a PM job with a union and turned it down because he doesn't want to deal with all the BS.

In the general sense, they certainly serve a purpose, but getting into specifics starts to show the gaping cracks in the facade.

wendalah

08-05-2005, 11:48 AM

They're using all non-union labor. If the local unions found out about it, and felt it was worth they're time, they would be picketing the site everyday just because the work wasn't given to them.

This has happened on set a few times on some projects DH has worked on.
I wouldn't have a problem with it, if they made it easier across the board for film professionals to join.

Belm

08-05-2005, 11:49 AM

But this happens all the time.

It doesn't happen at all with the unions that I am familiar with. I have never really heard of companies striking because they didn't get the job. Which goes to show how unique/different unions are.

FWIW, the unions that I have worked with in NYC and Chicago for trade shows were awesome (again - a completly different type of union). Especially compared to the non-union workers that we employeed for trade shows in the south.

usafwife

08-05-2005, 12:53 PM

camberne

08-05-2005, 01:06 PM

Speaking from the view of a General Contractor... there were projects and areas that we specifically stopped bidding on and working in specifically because of Union harrassment. In Southeastern VA, it is rare to find a Davis-Bacon wage job that isn't a government job. Other than the elevator mechanics, we haven't had to deal with much Union activity. However, in DC/PA/NJ/NY the Union presence is so large, that the Unions WILL pickett projects that are using a non-Union labor force. You get jobs by being the low bidder - Union subcontractors are more expensive than non-Union. If the specifications do not specify Davis-Bacon wages, many GCs will opt to use non-Union subs in order to get the projects. It's a cut-throat business.

wendalah

08-05-2005, 01:07 PM

BTW, for the record, my comment about flicking off the TV and reading a book was meant in the context of: If one is going to strive to choose union products in one's choices/lifestyle, TV entertainment is a shaky place. Books are a better bet.

And this was just to point out that it's all very gray and there's sweatshop-esque stuff going on in places that people would not expect, that unions aren't doing much to solve in that particular area.

In the case of being a military wife, I was simply pointing out that even the military (indirectly) uses non-union film crews. This was to further my point that there is a lot to unions in general that goes beyond what many people know of them. One can make many choices to use only union stores or union products, but may not know stuff that's going on right under their noses that seems innocuous.

It was not my intention to imply you got your information from TV. Sorry if it came off that way.

Irish Elf

08-05-2005, 01:39 PM

being amrried to an HR gure, I have seem unions from managements point of view. And being the daughter of an airline pilot I have seen unions from the employees point of view. Union can be great in some circumstances, lousy in others.

WWhether or not I would cross a picket line depends on why the union was picketing. Same principle I apply when i boycott any other place of business.

We don't have a union where I work. Somedays I don't get a set lunch time; I eat when I can even if it means I have to stop mid-bite and fix a situation. Non-exempt people get lunch no matter what is happening. I agree with this. But if a union tried to tell me that they could take a longer lunch just b/c they were union, and I was starving but couldn't get away, you can believe I would not be on the side of the union in this case.

smiles33

08-05-2005, 03:15 PM

Read through all the posts and I discovered now that I'm not as pro-labor as I once thought I was. I always try to avoid crossing picket lines and generally support the concept of unions, despite never having been in a union myself. But my limited interaction with unions (only in progressive political circles where we're both on the same side opposing/supporting legislation) led me to be somewhat naive about the seamy "underbelly."

This has been an informative thread, as I hadn't realized how many negative factors were involved.

chrisinluv

08-05-2005, 04:47 PM

I have an honest question.

What do unions do for workers today? In what ways do they protect workers that is not already regulated by the government?

I work for probation, so I see convicted felons all day long, at their homes and in my office. It is a dangerous job trying to keep track of people who don't like being told what to do and who live mainly in bad areas. One of my fellow officers just got shot yesterday, as a matter of fact. So we have the right to go through training and be issued a gun by the department. Why? Because our union fought for it. One of our officers requested that right a few years ago, and the state refused. He knew that he needed more protection, what with those late-night contacts he was required to make, so he carried his own personal weapon. Sure enough, he got out of his car one night to make a contact, and found a gun stuck in his face. He shot the guy. The union saved his job and they didn't stop there. They demanded that we be given the choice as to whether or not we carry a weapon.

ignutzz

08-06-2005, 10:48 AM

Belm If a non-union GC or sub gets a job that the union feels should belong to them, they will create all kinds of havoc. I used to work in the Wall St./South St. Seaport area, there were regularly giant blow up rats in front of various office buildings, with milling picketers surrounding it.

Ditto to what Camberne just said. Construction is a hard-ass field in which to work.

kiddo

08-06-2005, 12:05 PM

Thanks to those who answered my questions. It's good to know that unions still work for somebody.

A lot of my experience with unions has to do with them protecting under-performing workers, which I do not agree with. I've worked several jobs with unions, but the job where I had the best pay, benefits and working conditions was non-union.

In the northeast it is not unheard of hearing about unions picketing a non-union job that they didn't get.

I wonder if there are parts of the country where unions are needed/more effective than other parts?

Chimichanga

08-06-2005, 03:24 PM

I think the type of union has a lot to do with what it does for its' employees today.

For example, my mom is in the USPS and is an office steward. There is an employee in her office who just does not get along with the postmaster. She does her job fine, but they don't mesh. The postmaster has filed several complaints againster her unfairly. My mom has worked with these greivences and gotten her co-worker a fair shake. This woman may have been fired because her boss didn't like her. (BTW, lawyergirl25 where are your parents stewards? My mom is in IL) Similar instances have happened in my dad's union.

If workers aren't fully behind their union - if people don't want to join/don't see the point - the union has less strength and really can't do what it's supposed to do. I'll point again to my experience at the grocery store in high school. the kids didn't see the benefit of the union. We were in high school - $8/hour back in 1995 was a lot of money! But the people who made their living from that job really needed benefits and regular pay increases.

lawyergirl25

08-06-2005, 06:28 PM

Chimichanga, they're near you - living in Grafton, but I believe my mom is still working in Whitefish Bay and my step-father works in Shorewood.

christyz1

08-07-2005, 01:57 PM

I also work for the USPS and I think the union is very valuable. (Saint Louis, MO by the way). They make sure that our supervisors follow the contract and they also fight to make the contract better. I am treated so much better by there being a union. They make sure we get the overtime we deserve and have filed many grievences that got all of us extra pay. At my work you don't have to join, and they have to represent you if you are a member or not, but they do a better job if you are a member. Also, the nice thing about our contract is we have a "no lay off clause", but we also have a "no strike clause"......so you never have to worry about the post office being on strike!!