Pregnant man.....

[PinkMartini]

I'm surprised this hasn't been posted yet....

Lots of husbands jokingly tell their pregnant wives they'd gladly carry the baby if they could, but one Oregon man is actually bearing the child his wife wasn't able to.

The husband is transgender, meaning while legally considered a male and lawfully married to a woman, he was born with female reproductive organs. And those organs have come in handy, as they are now being used a carry the couple's child (conceived with donor sperm at home after fertility clinics refused to assist the couple) because endometriosis cost his wife her uterus.

Story (http://www.parentdish.com/2008/03/21/pregnant-husband/) (There's a picture of him pregnant)

Story (http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/married-man-claims-to-be-five-months-pregnant-801331.html)

I looked it up on Snopes.com and didn't see anything :confused:

[yby1]

I saw this on the news yesterday. :rolleyes: It seems like the couple did this for publicity.

[phoenics]

I think my head just exploded.

[PinkMartini]

It seems like the couple did this for publicity.

So is it a fake pregnancy then?

[ellidew]

One story states:
The husband is transgender, meaning while legally considered a male and lawfully married to a woman, he was born with female reproductive organs.

And the other states:A man who used to be a woman before having gender reassignment surgery claims he is five months pregnant and expecting a baby girl in July.

[yby1]

So is it a fake pregnancy then?

No one knows for sure, but if it's true, there are certainly other routes the could have pursued to have a child. Why go through something so controversial?

[diam124]

My understanding is that the person was a woman and had her breasts removed and was taking testosterone, but everything else remained female. Then the wife could not conceive, so the husband stopped taking testosterone so he could conceive and was successful.

[PinkMartini]

I'm confused... Don't they both say he was born with female parts and is now a male?

No one knows for sure, but if it's true, there are certainly other routes the could have pursued to have a child. Why go through something so controversial?

Ahhhh gotcha.

[diam124]

I don't know what is required to legally change genders, but he obviously kept his female reproductive organs.

I read a different article and I think the "hoax" idea came about because reporters interviewed neighbors of the couple who said he didn't look pregnant, etc. (they also had no idea he used to be female).

[ihearttx]

I think my head just exploded.

LOL

[kedzieb]

No one knows for sure, but if it's true, there are certainly other routes the could have pursued to have a child. Why go through something so controversial?

ITA. It seems like more of a publicity stunt than the only way to have a kid.

Eh, I'm usually pretty live-and-let-live about people's sexual/identity choices. But this annoys me as a woman somehow. It's like he didn't feel like a woman, didn't want to be a woman, got surgery and legally changed his gender to male, lives his life as a man and gets to enjoy a legal marriage to a woman (which he wouldn't if it were a traditional lesbian couple), but yet still wants the perks of carrying a baby. I'm not sure why it annoys me but it does.

[pocket]

I think this is awesome! Why would you think they are doing it for a publicity stunt? They want to have a kid just like anyone. He is transgender, and has undergone gender reassignment treatment including surgery. He chose to keep his lady parts. Maybe he thought ahead because his wife had a hysterectomy. Maybe he just couldn’t afford the reconstructive surgery or didn’t feel like he needed or wanted it. In any event lucky for them!

[phoenics]

I still haven't figured out how this worked. If he has female organs - how did his wife conceive? Was she artificially inseminated? *slaps head* Ah donor sperm.

Amazing story but I am still confused, lol.

So was he a woman before or was he born with female organs or what? Anyone find out the whole scoop?

[am_81]

I still haven't figured out how this worked. If he has female organs - how did his wife conceive? Was she artificially inseminated? *slaps head* Ah donor sperm.

Amazing story but I am still confused, lol.

So was he a woman before or was he born with female organs or what? Anyone find out the whole scoop?


He was born as a woman and had a masectomy/went through the gender reassignment process, but kept his female reproductive organs (uterus, fallopian tubes, etc).
Married current wife who previously had a hysterectomy, so she could not conceive/carry their child.
He decided that he would be the one to carry the child, as he still has all his female bits.

I havent read any of the news articles (just have seen it mentioned on the news that last few days), but I assume he was inseminated with donor sperm a la the "turkey basteer" method.

[BTB]

He decided that he would be the one to carry the child, as he still has all his female bits.

Except his breasts. Guess he won't have to worry about nursing in public, then. ;)

[moderngal]

Guess he won't have to worry about nursing in public, then.
Well his wife could try lactating. ;)

I don't see what the big deal is... I think if they are happy, committed, and responsible why not have a child? There are countless less qualified people having children...

[meganth]

This is probably a dumb question, but he has the functioning man parts and the woman parts if he's transgender, right? So will he actually be able to give vaginal birth to the child or will he have to have a C section?

[yby1]

I think this is awesome! Why would you think they are doing it for a publicity stunt? They want to have a kid just like anyone. He is transgender, and has undergone gender reassignment treatment including surgery. He chose to keep his lady parts. Maybe he thought ahead because his wife had a hysterectomy. Maybe he just couldn’t afford the reconstructive surgery or didn’t feel like he needed or wanted it. In any event lucky for them!

Maybe I'm just irrationally irked by the story. I can't say what I would do if I was in their situation. It doesn't matter to me what they do, it's a free country.

[diam124]

This is probably a dumb question, but he has the functioning man parts and the woman parts if he's transgender, right? So will he actually be able to give vaginal birth to the child or will he have to have a C section?

From what I read he has a vagina, not a penis. So I don't think childbirth is an issue.

[jnettie]

I just don't get how he can still have a uterus and be legally a man? It doesn't make any sense to me. I thought that you had to remove all those parts to become a legal man?

And what happens now? If he's stopped his hormones, will he become a woman again? What could all those hormones he was taking do to the baby? Isn't that a bit dangerous? Can they still be legally married if he becomes a woman again?

[Kay]

This is probably a dumb question, but he has the functioning man parts and the woman parts if he's transgender, right? So will he actually be able to give vaginal birth to the child or will he have to have a C section?

That's what I was wondering too. I wonder if he still has a vagina or did he have the operation and now has a penis? That would be a painful delivery:p

ETA: I see someone already answered the question and he does in fact have a vagina. I don't understand how he can legally be a man then..?

[thedoorchick]

I think it is pretty irresponsible from an ethical/medical standpoint. This person has been taking heavy doses of male hormones for years. What are the possible implications with regard to the child's health? No one has any idea what might happen, and to use your future potential child as a guinea pig?

In addition to this, I too think it is is a publicity stunt and/or social statement. Why choose this over adoption, or surrogacy if you feel strongly about having your own biological child, unless you are trying to make a point?

I really am having a hard time wrapping my brain around the concept that this person wants to be referred to (and legally treated as) a man, yet still has "lady parts" and wants to experience pregnancy. Is "he" really a man or a woman?

[meganth]

From what I read he has a vagina, not a penis. So I don't think childbirth is an issue.

So i guess this kind of answers the questions i was tempted to ask - could he impregnate himself?

[phoenics]

I had wondered about hormones too. How would that impact a growing child? Does anyone know? I find the whole thing fascinating though.

[luvnu43]

I can't even wrap my mind around this. I am disgusted by the pose in the picture, to me that screams publicity stunt. Also, the mix of hormones seems extremely risky to the baby.

It is my understanding that realizing your "true" gender is not only a very physical transformation, but also a very traumatic mental one as well. I am curious as to this person's current mental condition and how stable he/she really can be at this point. It seems as if he/she would have to juggle two identities, one being what they were previously determined NOT to be.

Things that make you go hmmmmm.....!

[mimieliza]

I'm with pocket in that I think this is awesome and really amazing... I hope it is true.

He still had intact, functioning female reproductive organs. Why is it irresponsible to choose to use them? He was using testosterone supplements, but stopped upon deciding to have a baby. His cycles resumed normally.

Did anyone link to the article in the Advocate? It's all explained pretty clearly, it's really not that complicated.

http://www.advocate.com/exclusive_detail_ektid52947.asp

[BTB]

But this annoys me as a woman somehow. It's like he didn't feel like a woman, didn't want to be a woman, got surgery and legally changed his gender to male, lives his life as a man and gets to enjoy a legal marriage to a woman (which he wouldn't if it were a traditional lesbian couple), but yet still wants the perks of carrying a baby.

That part kinda bugs me too. We as a society provide a pathway to legal gender change out of respect for the fact that some individuals feel 'trapped' in the other gender's body. They have a strong desire, even a need, to live as the opposite gender. To want to live as a man, to legally make that switch, and then to turn around and do something very female with one's body and life seems to thumb the nose at society, for honoring the initial switch to begin with, and other transgendered individuals, as if their switch is capricious as well. I think this publicity stunt does transgendered individuals a disservice.

[Niobe]

Wow, I'm kinda shocked by some of the harsh judgments being made in this thread. :( Maybe it's the way the articles the OP linked to are written (I've only read the story in the Advocate), but I thought this was a really sweet story when I read it earlier this week. They seem like a really loving couple, and I'm happy they're getting to have the family they wanted together. I didn't see anything about them that screamed "publicity stunt".

[Kanga]

Why choose this over adoption, or surrogacy if you feel strongly about having your own biological child, unless you are trying to make a point?

Why should he have to choose adoption or surrogacy over his own biological child (well his wife's anyways). Why should he not get to experience pregnancy, labor, and birth?

Lots of people take lots of medications (and herbal supplements) before conceiving and even during conception and pregnancy. The only reason we know which ones are safe and which ones are not is through trial and error. That's not to say that I'd personally be comfortable with it but I don't think it's my place to tell him he shouldn't either.

I've always been curious, and this seems like the thread to ask it - how does one go about getting a penis and other male parts when they are born female? Is that even possible?

Quite honestly I'm surprised this hasn't happened before now. I'm also surprised that fertility clinics turned him down. You'd think they'd want to for the publicity. Or maybe that's the reason they turned him down in the first place.

IDK, it just doesn't seem all that strange to me. Maybe because I have hard time "seeing" him as a true male when he still has female parts (and no male parts, I don't think)?

[pocket]

Dan Savage did a shout-out to this article in this week's Savage Love podcast.

Why choose this over adoption, or surrogacy if you feel strongly about having your own biological child, unless you are trying to make a point?

Why do any of us try to have bio-kids when we can't instead of choosing adoption or surrogacy? I know that if Pita had a uterus he would totally do this in a heartbeat.

I really am having a hard time wrapping my brain around the concept that this person wants to be referred to (and legally treated as) a man, yet still has "lady parts" and wants to experience pregnancy. Is "he" really a man or a woman?

This is how gender reassignment works: First you decide that you are transgender, then you go to a transgender clinic and you have a barrage of psychological tests to determine if you are sane or not. Then you start hormone treatments, then you start dressing and living as the gender you feel you are, then you have surgery. This guy had upper half surgery, but chose not to have a hysterectomy and (we infer) genital reconstruction surgery. There are probably a lot of reasons for that. Anyone undergoing this kind of transition needs to think about their fertility. You might feel like you are a dude but you might also think that you want to have kids someday. I would personally be reluctant to have a hysterectomy and vaginal surgery if I was pretty young and still unpartnered. As it turned out, he made the right decision since the woman he ended up marrying had a hysterectomy herself. Maybe he always intended to have the surgery someday. The other thing is that I don't think the surgery is exactly cheap. Maybe he couldn't afford to do it right now. Or maybe he just didn't want to have surgery on his genitals. I had some surgery done in that area and it was incredibly painful. I believe the term I used for the pain was "vagina knives". Transgender people are going to challenge our ideas about gender and what it means. They don't really fall into one clear gendered area. He's a dude with lady parts who is going to have baby.

[jnettie]

That part kinda bugs me too. We as a society provide a pathway to legal gender change out of respect for the fact that some individuals feel 'trapped' in the other gender's body. They have a strong desire, even a need, to live as the opposite gender. To want to live as a man, to legally make that switch, and then to turn around and do something very female with one's body and life seems to thumb the nose at society, for honoring the initial switch to begin with, and other transgendered individuals, as if their switch is capricious as well. I think this publicity stunt does transgendered individuals a disservice.

I think this is what bugs me, too. He/she wanted to be male...until it didn't suit his/her purposes anymore.

Niobe, are you really shocked that this is inspiring such strong opinion? This just seems so ethically wrong to me. I'm not surprised no IVF clinic or doctor would work with them. There are few things that shock me, and I always defend gay rights and have known transgender people, but this has just crossed a moral line for me.

[BTB]

He's a dude with lady parts who is going to have baby.

I just don't see what claim this guy has to dude-hood right about now:

"Sex" (biology)
~He has X,X chromosomes
~He has a normal female genital tract

"Gender" (social role)
~He's pregnant and posing for topless photos of his pregnant belly

I guess that makes him a post-mastectomy, hirsute pregnant lady. Hey, there's lots of hirsute ladies out there. :)

[GlamaGal]

This doesn't bother me at all. Not sure why. I guess I just see it as two people who desire to have a child of at least one's DNA. I'm sure that the uterus he likely previously despised became an unlikely option, but an option. Plenty of gay couples use surrogates.

I changed a lot of my thinking on these things when I saw a Dateline (I think it was ??) special about these little kids who from almost day one knew they were supposed to be the opposite sex. A little biological boy wore dresses to school and at home and pretty much everyone knew he was a bio boy, but he was living his life as a little girl. And she was too cute and very normal and adjusted. I looked over at my child and knew I'd support her same.

[Peppy]

That part kinda bugs me too. We as a society provide a pathway to legal gender change out of respect for the fact that some individuals feel 'trapped' in the other gender's body. They have a strong desire, even a need, to live as the opposite gender. To want to live as a man, to legally make that switch, and then to turn around and do something very female with one's body and life seems to thumb the nose at society, for honoring the initial switch to begin with, and other transgendered individuals, as if their switch is capricious as well. I think this publicity stunt does transgendered individuals a disservice.

I think that implicit in this critique is an idea that society has made a "correct" choice in the limits it has placed on transgendered people, or that this man should feel so grateful that he is allowed any legal status as a man that he shouldn't rock the boat, but instead should just happily thank society for giving him that legal status. But personally, I don't think that is the case. Everyone defines their sexuality differently. If this man was born a woman and always felt he was a man, but now that circumstances have presented themselves that he can have a baby and he is okay with that, that's what should matter. It doesn't necessarily make him any less of a man. I know quite a few men who say that they wish they could carry a baby and are jealous of the bond an expectant mother develops with a baby before it is born. So why is it so crazy or wrong that this man (who was born as a woman) would want to do so as well, particularly when his wife can't?

It isn't like society as a whole has ever been close to open-minded about transgendered people. So I don't fault him in any way for doing something outside of the little box society has created for him.

And I'm not at all offended as a woman that someone who considers himself a man would choose to carry a child when he has that opportunity. I don't have any interest in carrying a child, and I don't feel that makes me any less of a woman.

[Ribbit]

I love it.

I'm sorry, but I think we are way too uptight about gender in our society, especially since we love to pride ourselves on being so equal rights oriented. We are so NOT an equal rights society. I don't think any of our "rights" as human beings should be tied to gender...childbirth, marriage, the work we choose, the pay we receive, health care benefits, etc. I mean, at what point did it become suddenly legal for this man to marry a woman, but it wasn't legal while he was still a woman? And why did that change need to happen at all, aside from his personal feelings? I don't think it's our place to pass judgment on this couple for making a personal decision that isn't hurting anyone else, just as I don't believe it's our government's place to pass laws based solely on gender.

Even if this pregnancy is a publicity stunt, I say good for them! This man already has to put up with idiotic people passing judgment on him for just being trans-gendered. Even his own brother said his children would be monsters! So if he wants to do something that makes people *really* think about gender roles/sexuality/human rights, then I'm all for it, even if it does involve some corny topless pregnant poses.

[longislandlolita]

This doesn't bother me at all. Not sure why. I guess I just see it as two people who desire to have a child of at least one's DNA. I'm sure that the uterus he likely previously despised became an unlikely option, but an option. Plenty of gay couples use surrogates.


My thoughts exactly. His/her body, his/her choice.

[kedzieb]

I think that implicit in this critique is an idea that society has made a "correct" choice in the limits it has placed on transgendered people, or that this man should feel so grateful that he is allowed any legal status as a man that he shouldn't rock the boat, but instead should just happily thank society for giving him that legal status. But personally, I don't think that is the case. Everyone defines their sexuality differently. If this man was born a woman and always felt he was a man, but now that circumstances have presented themselves that he can have a baby and he is okay with that, that's what should matter. It doesn't necessarily make him any less of a man. I know quite a few men who say that they wish they could carry a baby and are jealous of the bond an expectant mother develops with a baby before it is born. So why is it so crazy or wrong that this man (who was born as a woman) would want to do so as well, particularly when his wife can't?

It isn't like society as a whole has ever been close to open-minded about transgendered people. So I don't fault him in any way for doing something outside of the little box society has created for him.

And I'm not at all offended as a woman that someone who considers himself a man would choose to carry a child when he has that opportunity. I don't have any interest in carrying a child, and I don't feel that makes me any less of a woman.

Well, I agree that society is too closed-minded about gender roles and gay rights. I think the problem I have with this has more to do with the fact that he was fine with accepting the legal rights he received when he was declared a man. He was able to marry the woman he loved. I think all loving couples should be given that option. It pisses me off that we don't allow gay marriage legally. So he is now acting as a woman - because having a uterus and carrying a baby are both purely female options. And he's still able to be legally married to the woman he loves.

[Niobe]

Niobe, are you really shocked that this is inspiring such strong opinion? This just seems so ethically wrong to me. I'm not surprised no IVF clinic or doctor would work with them. There are few things that shock me, and I always defend gay rights and have known transgender people, but this has just crossed a moral line for me.

But, why? I guess that one, I don't make a lot of moral judgments, especially about others. But mainly, I really don't see the problem. Two people, appear to have a happy, loving home, bringing a child into it. Rock on. Many "traditional" families are a lot more screwed up than this one and bring children into the world every day.

[rubyredslippers]

My head hasn't exploded, but I would like to see his maternity wardrobe.:confused:

[DallasLady]

Eh, I'm usually pretty live-and-let-live about people's sexual/identity choices. But this annoys me as a woman somehow. It's like he didn't feel like a woman, didn't want to be a woman, got surgery and legally changed his gender to male, lives his life as a man and gets to enjoy a legal marriage to a woman (which he wouldn't if it were a traditional lesbian couple), but yet still wants the perks of carrying a baby. I'm not sure why it annoys me but it does.

I really am having a hard time wrapping my brain around the concept that this person wants to be referred to (and legally treated as) a man, yet still has "lady parts" and wants to experience pregnancy. Is "he" really a man or a woman?

I agree with both of you. You can't have it both ways. Either be a man or be a woman. He/She is a woman when it's convenient. Can he/she really even call himself a "he" if he/she is pregnant? Either be the woman you were born to be, or decide you were born incorrectly and be a man. But don't just turn it on and off.

Maybe the fact that I am pregnant and irritable is why this is bugging me.

This makes me think of a character on the L Word, Max (I am in love with that show). Max is trangendered, born a woman but transitioning to be a man. Max has not had the surgery yet, though he lives his life as a man. Max has recently started sleeping with a man. I thought it would be hilarious if Max ended up pregnant (but that's just TV, not real life).

[kedzieb]

I agree with both of you. You can't have it both ways. Either be a man or be a woman. He/She is a woman when it's convenient. Can he/she really even call himself a "he" if he/she is pregnant? Either be the woman you were born to be, or decide you were born incorrectly and be a man. But don't just turn it on and off.

Maybe the fact that I am pregnant and irritable is why this is bugging me.


Maybe this is why I'm annoyed too! Prenancy is bringing out my inner feminist. Well, honestly it's out most of the time.

[cosmic]

I just don't see what claim this guy has to dude-hood right about now:

"Sex" (biology)
~He has X,X chromosomes
~He has a normal female genital tract

"Gender" (social role)
~He's pregnant and posing for topless photos of his pregnant belly

I guess that makes him a post-mastectomy, hirsute pregnant lady. Hey, there's lots of hirsute ladies out there. :)

Totally agree. The fact is, this woman was never a man. Just a woman who had a lot of operations. In fact- and I'm honestly asking- is it ever possible for surgery to truly change a person's gender?

[Kanga]

Am I the only one not bothered by this guy or anybody else for that matter wanting to be a man one day and a woman the next? I just don't see why it should matter to others. Heck there are a lot of times when dh is gone that it'd be nice to have a man around but I don't think he'd go for me staying a man when he got back, lol.

[jh124]

So i guess this kind of answers the questions i was tempted to ask - could he impregnate himself?

Even the best gender reassignment drs are unable to create reproductive sex organs. Those who go through reassignment are sterile. So no, he would not create sperm.

Maybe the fact that I am pregnant and irritable is why this is bugging me.

I am ALSO pregnant, and I am thrilled for this couple. Their excitement, anticipation, the wonderfulness of bringing up a child with one's spouse. I don't begrudge that to anyone who wants it.

Maybe this is why I'm annoyed too! Prenancy is bringing out my inner feminist. Well, honestly it's out most of the time.

Being a feminist means that you believe that men and women are equal, not that there are specific roles for men and women. Being a feminist, a woman, and pregnant with my second child, I must say that there are many times when I wish my DH could carry the baby, nurse the baby, hear the baby in the middle of the night. I love being pregnant, but there are moments when I wish pregnancy was a more equitable task.

Am I the only one not bothered by this guy or anybody else for that matter wanting to be a man one day and a woman the next? I just don't see why it should matter to others.

Nope, doesn't bother me at all.

[yby1]

Am I the only one not bothered by this guy or anybody else for that matter wanting to be a man one day and a woman the next? I just don't see why it should matter to others. Heck there are a lot of times when dh is gone that it'd be nice to have a man around but I don't think he'd go for me staying a man when he got back, lol.

It doesn't matter to me, but I am irked by it precisely because the woman became a man and is now using his feminine parts. I shouldn't have an issue with it and that's my own problem.

[DallasLady]

Am I the only one not bothered by this guy or anybody else for that matter wanting to be a man one day and a woman the next? I just don't see why it should matter to others. Heck there are a lot of times when dh is gone that it'd be nice to have a man around but I don't think he'd go for me staying a man when he got back, lol.

In the grand scheme of life, I doesn't matter to me. If I saw him/her walking down the street, I am sure I'd do a double take, but I wouldn't say anything mean or rude.

But, biologically, he is a female and has female parts so this really isn't a case of a man having a baby. He/she has chosen to socially identify as a man and change appearance and behavior to fit that. But you cannot change your DNA (yet, maybe one day).

[cosmic]

Oh... so upon further reading, I'm not even sure this person can be considered transgendered. Cut off the breasts, got rid of some other things, kept the uterus, took testosterone, now no longer taking testosterone and probably getting a healthy dose of her own natural estrogen. She basically made herself into, I dunno, a hermaphrodite? And this is her second pregnancy.

A previous insemination ended in a life-threatening ectopic pregnancy with triplets, requiring surgery, resulting in the loss of all his embryos and his right fallopian tube.

In the long run, it all seems so wasteful. Is this what medicine is for? It really doesn't affect me in any way but I assumed people had to go through psychological counseling before beginning gender reassignment. Did that happen here? Did she tell medical/psychiatric professionals that she wanted to be a man, but only from the waist up? If so, what was their advice? I'm only asking because there have been studies showing that these people sometimes have a lot of regrets down the road.

I think it is pretty irresponsible from an ethical/medical standpoint.

It sure seems that way. I'm not even sure how all this happened to someone under medical care. Of course she wanted to give birth to a baby-- she's a woman. Could there be a malpractice case down the road when this person has her next "realization"?

[kedzieb]

Being a feminist means that you believe that men and women are equal, not that there are specific roles for men and women. Being a feminist, a woman, and pregnant with my second child, I must say that there are many times when I wish my DH could carry the baby, nurse the baby, hear the baby in the middle of the night. I love being pregnant, but there are moments when I wish pregnancy was a more equitable task.

I know what a feminist is - I'm one and think it's a very positive thing. And feminism deals with the issues that women face - but this man has decided to stop living as a woman and be treated as a man. He never felt right as a woman and has fought long and hard to become a man.

My problem is that by rejecting his womanhood and wanting the world to see him as a man, it bothers me that he would then embrace only one aspect of his womanhood. He does not now want to be a woman. He would like to continue to receive the benefits of being a man, including legal marriage to his wife.

And yes, there are some mornings when I wish my husband was the one carrying the baby (this morning in particular when I slumped back on the bed for a bit since bending over to put on socks was a little too much effort), but I consider pregnancy to be a uniquely female experience that I would feel like I would have to relinquish if I gave up being a woman.

ETA: I'm pro gender reassignment and think it makes sense for a lot of people. It's amazing to hear stories of how much better their lives are once the switch is made. I do think it brings up a lot of interesting issues, particularly in the feminist communitee. I just read an article in the NYT magazine about the impact on women's colleges and find it fascinating. But like any social change, there will be growing pains. I think since the transgendered community continues to want to be recognized by society at large, some of the choices are going to cause more conflict than others.

[BTB]

Totally agree. The fact is, this woman was never a man. Just a woman who had a lot of operations. In fact- and I'm honestly asking- is it ever possible for surgery to truly change a person's gender?

Technically "gender" is a social construct - it deals with the way we interact, and the ideas and perceptions we have about an individual's sex.

"Sex" is a biologic assignment.

There are lots of interesting conditions in which gender and sex do not correllate. Mother Nature can and does get things a little mistaken sometimes.

If a person is born clearly assigned to one sex or the other and wishes to change, what they are really changing is their gender (their cultural assignment). Although reassignment surgery can approximate the appropriate organs, they will never be normally functioning organs, thus I would argue one can never change his or her sex.

[kendriln]

I wonder about the legal ramifications of this -- I do some pro bono work with the transgendered community and I'm wondering now that he's pregnant is he considered to be living as a man who is pregnant or whether since he's stopped hormone therapy and is pregnant whether he's viewed as a woman. If that's the case, is his wife entitled to benefits? Are they considered legally married? I wonder will he resume hormone therapy after the birth of the baby?

[jnettie]

But, why? I guess that one, I don't make a lot of moral judgments, especially about others. But mainly, I really don't see the problem. Two people, appear to have a happy, loving home, bringing a child into it. Rock on. Many "traditional" families are a lot more screwed up than this one and bring children into the world every day.

I'm not saying that this should be outlawed or anything, but I do think a discussion about the ethical implications of his/her actions. Sure, one couple will have the child they desire, but this is going to impact our society in a huge way.

Technically "gender" is a social construct - it deals with the way we interact, and the ideas and perceptions we have about an individual's sex.

"Sex" is a biologic assignment.

There are lots of interesting conditions in which gender and sex do not correllate. Mother Nature can and does get things a little mistaken sometimes.

If a person is born clearly assigned to one sex or the other and wishes to change, what they are really changing is their gender (their cultural assignment). Although reassignment surgery can approximate the appropriate organs, they will never be normally functioning organs, thus I would argue one can never change his or her sex.

BTB, I'd just like to say this is EXACTLY what my DH said to me last night when I read this to him. And I think this bears some attention. Think what we may about the fluidity of gender rolls, "sex" is what it is.


Ultimately it's the "I want to be a man but now I want a baby so I don't want to be a man" thing that bugs me most.

[bciob22]

Who will be the mother on the birth certificate? (Don't mean to sound flip I really am curios)

[imagirliegirl]

But, biologically, he is a female and has female parts so this really isn't a case of a man having a baby.

I think that is the real issue here, and frankly, I don't get why this story is news. It's not like this is really a man having a baby. It's a woman having a baby. And hey, they want this baby and that's great! But not so much news. :)

[Niobe]

Am I the only one not bothered by this guy or anybody else for that matter wanting to be a man one day and a woman the next? I just don't see why it should matter to others. Heck there are a lot of times when dh is gone that it'd be nice to have a man around but I don't think he'd go for me staying a man when he got back, lol.
Nope, you aren't the only one. Part of me thinks it's really cool (the part of me that just likes gender roles and stereotypes being messed with in general), the other part of me really doesn't care. You want to be a man? Great. You want to keep your uterus and have the oddest maternity pictures ever? Have fun. I've never been real hung up on the whole transgender thing. I call people by whatever pronoun they prefer to be called by, and don't care past that. Unless I plan to put it to use, what you have in your pants is your business. ;)
but this is going to impact our society in a huge way.
How? No snark, I really don't see how this will impact anybody. The child will be born, they'll raise him/her, life will go on. From an outsider's view, they'll even look like a normal nuclear family - mom, dad, kiddo.

[TwnklToes80]

I think that implicit in this critique is an idea that society has made a "correct" choice in the limits it has placed on transgendered people, or that this man should feel so grateful that he is allowed any legal status as a man that he shouldn't rock the boat, but instead should just happily thank society for giving him that legal status. But personally, I don't think that is the case. Everyone defines their sexuality differently. If this man was born a woman and always felt he was a man, but now that circumstances have presented themselves that he can have a baby and he is okay with that, that's what should matter. It doesn't necessarily make him any less of a man. I know quite a few men who say that they wish they could carry a baby and are jealous of the bond an expectant mother develops with a baby before it is born. So why is it so crazy or wrong that this man (who was born as a woman) would want to do so as well, particularly when his wife can't?

It isn't like society as a whole has ever been close to open-minded about transgendered people. So I don't fault him in any way for doing something outside of the little box society has created for him.

And I'm not at all offended as a woman that someone who considers himself a man would choose to carry a child when he has that opportunity. I don't have any interest in carrying a child, and I don't feel that makes me any less of a woman.

ITA....BTB, my body, my choice. Doesn't he get the same respect? Do you truly believe we are doing him a "favor" by "allowing" him to live transgender?? And beyond that, every single person in this world has the right to do whatever they want with their body. You may not agree with it morally, but society does not have a right to tell him what to do with his body.

I agree with both of you. You can't have it both ways. Either be a man or be a woman. He/She is a woman when it's convenient. Can he/she really even call himself a "he" if he/she is pregnant? Either be the woman you were born to be, or decide you were born incorrectly and be a man. But don't just turn it on and off.

HE can call HIMSELF whatever HE wants. Because HE is a human being with rights. He can have it both ways...that is the beauty of being in control of your own body. Honestly, this whole comment is horribly offensive to me.

Am I the only one not bothered by this guy or anybody else for that matter wanting to be a man one day and a woman the next? I just don't see why it should matter to others. Heck there are a lot of times when dh is gone that it'd be nice to have a man around but I don't think he'd go for me staying a man when he got back, lol.

Not bothered at all, I think it's great.

[BTB]

society does not have a right to tell him what to do with his body.

That argument is tired and oversimplified.

Tired, because there are hundreds of areas in whichlaw dictates what we do with our bodies. I can't pee on the sidewalk, I can't sip espresso naked at Starbucks, I can't smoke a joint. That it tells me what to do with my body is not by itself a good reason a law should not exist.

Oversimplified because society isn't "telling him what to do with his body". He can dress how he likes, refer to himself how he likes, that was always true. And when he wanted to officially change legal status, he was allowed to do so. So why your outrage that he's not getting sufficient respect?

[Dally]

ITA with Imagirliegirl:
I don't get why this story is news. It's not like this is really a man having a baby. It's a woman having a baby. And hey, they want this baby and that's great! But not so much news.

I respect his decision to (mostly) live as a man, but I don't get the big deal with the story. The reason he is pregnant is that his sex is still that of a woman. People with uteruses get pregnant all the time.

[cosmic]

Right. And not only can you not do whatever you want with your body, but medical professionals are bound to seriously consider what they do to your body even if you want it. People will always have desires to do odd things to themselves, so the latter is what's interesting to me. I keep thinking this whole thing is a set up to some kind of malpractice case. Or should be because of all the professionals assigned to a transgender case.

[thedoorchick]

How? No snark, I really don't see how this will impact anybody. The child will be born, they'll raise him/her, life will go on. From an outsider's view, they'll even look like a normal nuclear family - mom, dad, kiddo.
It's hard for me to believe that anyone can seriously think this will not impact society in a big way. One might think it's a good impact, or a bad one, but this family will in no way be "normal."

My serious question of the day is, what constitutes being legally a male? This person still has female parts, and is now pregnant...That seems awfully like a woman to me, as several have pointed out. Yet the articles on this talk about this person being legally a man. How, exactly, is this person legally a man?

[kendriln]

My serious question of the day is, what constitutes being legally a male? This person still has female parts, and is now pregnant...That seems awfully like a woman to me, as several have pointed out. Yet the articles on this talk about this person being legally a man. How, exactly, is this person legally a man?

States vary on what they require, but hormone therapy, a psych evaluation, living full time as that gender and reassignment surgery are all factors that will be assessed. At that point driver's licenses and birth certificates can be legally changed.

I'm not learned on Oregon's laws, but I do wonder what effect, if any, the cessation of hormone therapy and being pregnant will have on his "legally male" status.

[zhannushka]

This doesn't bother me at all. Not sure why. I guess I just see it as two people who desire to have a child of at least one's DNA. I'm sure that the uterus he likely previously despised became an unlikely option, but an option. Plenty of gay couples use surrogates.
ITA. This story neither bugs me nor offends me in any way. As a matter of fact I'm very happy for a couple who were able to conceive a child regardless of the wife's hysterectomy. If I was in their situation, I would totally do the same thing!

ETA: I used to work with a woman who smoked, drank and did drugs throughout her pregnancy and ended up giving birth to a stillborn baby at 21 weeks. I'd much rather see a responsible pregnant man than a woman who would risk her unborn baby's life like that.

[phoenics]

States vary on what they require, but hormone therapy, a psych evaluation, living full time as that gender and reassignment surgery are all factors that will be assessed. At that point driver's licenses and birth certificates can be legally changed.

I'm not learned on Oregon's laws, but I do wonder what effect, if any, the cessation of hormone therapy and being pregnant will have on his "legally male" status.

My question would then be - would the 'marriage' then be in question? Sort of like how they have immigration laws and checks to make sure that two people who married didn't do so only to gain legal citizenship in the US, kwim? That's probably not the best example, but it was the only one I could think of.

I think it's likely that after this, he'll go back on hormone therapy, etc.. and such, but it does throw into question the legality of their marriage. He's basically living as 'both'.

[Niobe]

It's hard for me to believe that anyone can seriously think this will not impact society in a big way. One might think it's a good impact, or a bad one, but this family will in no way be "normal."

Again, how? What is the expected impact on society?

And what is a "normal" family anyway? I said they'd look like a normal nuclear family - and they will - but I don't think such a thing as a "normal" family is really existent. Every family has its skeletons.

[kendriln]

My question would then be - would the 'marriage' then be in question? Sort of like how they have immigration laws and checks to make sure that two people who married didn't do so only to gain legal citizenship in the US, kwim? That's probably not the best example, but it was the only one I could think of.

I think it's likely that after this, he'll go back on hormone therapy, etc.. and such, but it does throw into question the legality of their marriage. He's basically living as 'both'.

I don't know what the effect would be on their marriage, or the benefits the spouse receives. I may do some reading on that this weekend.

I do think that after the pregnancy he'll go back on testosterone. I wonder if they'll decide to have additional children? What are the effects on your body if you go on and off hormonal therapy? I have so many questions!

But I do think it raises interesting questions about why transgendered individuals are allowed the rights of marriage, but lesbian and gay individuals are not.

[jesvet]

It's unusual, but for whatever reason it just doesn't bother me.

[Scooter]

I think a lot of you are confusing the concepts of "sex" and "gender." They're not the same thing! Sex is about which genitalia you have and gender is about whether your brain identifies with males or females. And it's not exactly cut and dry, considering that there is evidence that during gestation your genitalia and your brain can be sexed differently--which leads to being transgendered.

The other part of this is the indignation that he can haver it "both ways," that he has to choose one and that's that. Our society is so intent on shoving everyone into a box that either says "male" or "female" that we never stop to wonder if there might be more of a spectrum with gender. Just look at baby clothes--it's hard to find gender neutral clothes--it begins so early with us! Pink or blue, choose one. When someone is born intersexed--with reproductive organs that aren't one sex or the other--doctors used to decide at birth which gender they were and operate right then--it's like we don't have room in our heads to think that it's ok that someone doesn't have to choose!

Rambling now...but the point is that I don't think this guy has to choose what sex or gender he is. He is who he is, and it's the person he was created to be. I don't care what he chooses to do with his own body, I think it's wonderful that he's at a point where psychologically he's able to accept himself so much as being transgendered, to the point where he opens himself up to this kind of scrutiny. Good luck to them in building their family.

[ysolde]

It's unusual, but for whatever reason it just doesn't bother me.


That's pretty much where I'm at, for some reason.

[TwnklToes80]

That argument is tired and oversimplified.

Tired, because there are hundreds of areas in whichlaw dictates what we do with our bodies. I can't pee on the sidewalk, I can't sip espresso naked at Starbucks, I can't smoke a joint. That it tells me what to do with my body is not by itself a good reason a law should not exist.

Oversimplified because society isn't "telling him what to do with his body". He can dress how he likes, refer to himself how he likes, that was always true. And when he wanted to officially change legal status, he was allowed to do so. So why your outrage that he's not getting sufficient respect?

You made the comment that it was like he was thumbing his nose at society because we showed him the respect of living as a man, and then he gets pregnant and is using his female parts. It's not our place to give him any right to change his gender, or sex or anything for that matter. We don't get to say "well, we are going to give you the courtesy of living your life as a man, even though we all know you are a woman"

I think a lot of you are confusing the concepts of "sex" and "gender." They're not the same thing! Sex is about which genitalia you have and gender is about whether your brain identifies with males or females. And it's not exactly cut and dry, considering that there is evidence that during gestation your genitalia and your brain can be sexed differently--which leads to being transgendered.

The other part of this is the indignation that he can haver it "both ways," that he has to choose one and that's that. Our society is so intent on shoving everyone into a box that either says "male" or "female" that we never stop to wonder if there might be more of a spectrum with gender. Just look at baby clothes--it's hard to find gender neutral clothes--it begins so early with us! Pink or blue, choose one. When someone is born intersexed--with reproductive organs that aren't one sex or the other--doctors used to decide at birth which gender they were and operate right then--it's like we don't have room in our heads to think that it's ok that someone doesn't have to choose!

Rambling now...but the point is that I don't think this guy has to choose what sex or gender he is. He is who he is, and it's the person he was created to be. I don't care what he chooses to do with his own body, I think it's wonderful that he's at a point where psychologically he's able to accept himself so much as being transgendered, to the point where he opens himself up to this kind of scrutiny. Good luck to them in building their family.

Couldn't have said it better myself

[imagirliegirl]

but I consider pregnancy to be a uniquely female experience that I would feel like I would have to relinquish if I gave up being a woman.


I was trying to kill a few minutes and reviewing this thread, and I wanted to say that I can't help but agree with this. I fully support a person's right to choose to live how they want and be who they want. But if someone believes they should have been born male, rather than female, I'm actually really surprised that pregnancy is an option that person would consider since men cannot be pregnant. To believe you should have been male to such a degree that you will have surgery and undergo other medical treatment, but use female reproductive organs to conceive a child for any reason, does seem odd (for lack of a better word - or thesaurus, ha) .

Clearly it's not my right to tell anyone what to do. And I still stand by the opinion that someone having a baby with the parts intended for making a baby isn't news, but I did want to throw that in, for the sake of the discussion.

[phoenics]

I think a lot of you are confusing the concepts of "sex" and "gender." They're not the same thing! Sex is about which genitalia you have and gender is about whether your brain identifies with males or females. And it's not exactly cut and dry, considering that there is evidence that during gestation your genitalia and your brain can be sexed differently--which leads to being transgendered.

The other part of this is the indignation that he can haver it "both ways," that he has to choose one and that's that. Our society is so intent on shoving everyone into a box that either says "male" or "female" that we never stop to wonder if there might be more of a spectrum with gender. Just look at baby clothes--it's hard to find gender neutral clothes--it begins so early with us! Pink or blue, choose one. When someone is born intersexed--with reproductive organs that aren't one sex or the other--doctors used to decide at birth which gender they were and operate right then--it's like we don't have room in our heads to think that it's ok that someone doesn't have to choose!

Rambling now...but the point is that I don't think this guy has to choose what sex or gender he is. He is who he is, and it's the person he was created to be. I don't care what he chooses to do with his own body, I think it's wonderful that he's at a point where psychologically he's able to accept himself so much as being transgendered, to the point where he opens himself up to this kind of scrutiny. Good luck to them in building their family.

I'm asking these kinds of questions because I'm just wondering how someone in the gay and lesbian community might feel about this. I'd imagine some of them could feel cheated?

[BTB]

You made the comment that it was like he was thumbing his nose at society because we showed him the respect of living as a man, and then he gets pregnant and is using his female parts. It's not our place to give him any right to change his gender, or sex or anything for that matter. We don't get to say "well, we are going to give you the courtesy of living your life as a man, even though we all know you are a woman"

But it was "our" place to change his sex to begin with - that's not exactly a "right" Mother Nature bestowed, now is it? It was only possible via society's, and science's, actions... not something he did by himself. Had he done this independently, I'd be inclined to agree with you, but that's not how it happened.

[Scooter]

I'm asking these kinds of questions because I'm just wondering how someone in the gay and lesbian community might feel about this. I'd imagine some of them could feel cheated?
Since there are as many opinions in the LGBT community as the straight one, sure, some out there might feel that way. It's been my experience (as a non-LGBT person) that the community as a whole tends to be more accepting of a person living the way they want to, regardless of how they were born, instead of being caught up in what straight society dictates as "right" or "normal," and understands the concept of a spectrum of gender.

But it was "our" place to change his sex to begin with - that's not exactly a "right" Mother Nature bestowed, now is it? It was only possible via society's, and science's, actions... not something he did by himself. Had he done this independently, I'd be inclined to agree with you, but that's not how it happened.
I have to wonder, just rhetorically I guess, if it's society that puts the idea out there that transgendered people need to change sexes to feel whole? I mean, if our society accepted that a person can look like a man (or woman) and yet be a female (or male) despite that, maybe people who are born this way wouldn't need science to help them? In some cultures in the past, people who were able to live simultaneously like that in two worlds were seen as having a gift that the rest of us don't--and they were made shamans or priests etc. They apparently lived whole, fullfilling lives, accepted as who they were. So was the science developed because people in every culture have always needed it, or was the science developed because society has trained us all that we need to choose, and any middle ground is uncomfortable--even for the transgendered people themselves?

[cosmic]

That's an interesting point, Scooter. If gender is your social role and sex is the physical organs, then changing your sex to become another gender wouldn't work anyway. In that case, a person who wants a sex change could be just acting in response to what they want from society. Maybe that explains why many of them regret it later on? I dunno. Just thinking that maybe one day people who are born this way will feel comfortable enough that maybe they won't feel the need for gender reassignment.

Oh! And as BTB said, a sex change is not a right. You have to apply, get the money together, go through medical and psychological counseling, get on a schedule of hormonal treatment... and some people do get turned down because they're not considered a good risk, mentally or physically. Who knows what kind of screening there is for someone who wants to be a woman from the waist up and a man from the waist down. I'm pretty sure the only way you can get that is to fool the system.

[wendalah]

A little late to this thread, but:

Our society is so intent on shoving everyone into a box that either says "male" or "female" that we never stop to wonder if there might be more of a spectrum with gender.

Just my opinion--I think part of the reason we "shove" people into gender boxes is, it really makes life a heck of a lot easier for the great majority of people.

I have no negative feelings toward this man, but (to me) he doesn't sound like he is secure in his identity. I will admit the story felt uncomfortable to me. Not because of what is happening. But because it just sounds like such an uncomfortable place to be as an individual.

[imagirliegirl]

In that case, a person who wants a sex change could be just acting in response to what they want from society.

But isn't it pretty safe to say that society, at least most of society, doesn't want people "switching sides"? I mean, there was, and continues to be all sorts of controversy and opinions about whether or not people should do this or should be allowed to. Many people still disagree very much with the idea of being born the wrong sex.

I thought one of the main points of having sexual reassignment done was in response to the feeling that one was born the wrong SEX? That's what makes surgery necessary to them.

[cosmic]

You would think so, right? It's perfectly logical.
But this case seems to disprove that.

[TwnklToes80]

http://www.symposion.com/ijt/gilbert/kessler.htm

Worth reading.

The prefix "trans" has 3 different meanings. Trans means change, as in the word "transform." In this first sense transgendered people change their bodies to fit the gender they feel they always were. They change from male to female or vice versa. Transgender in this sense is synonymous with what is typically meant by the term "transsexual."Trans means across as in the word "transcontinental." In this second sense a transgendered person is one who moves across genders (or maybe aspects of the person cross genders). This meaning does not imply being essentially or permanently committed to one or the other gender and therefore has a more social-constructionist connotation. Nevertheless, the transgendered person in this meaning does not leave the realm of two genders. Persons who assert that although they are "really" the other gender they do not need to change their genitals, are transgendered in this sense of "trans." The emphasis is on the crossing and not on any surgical transformation accompanying it. Such a person might say, "I want people to attribute the gender "female" to me, but I'm not going to get my genitals changed. I don't mind having my penis." This type of identity is relatively recent as an open, public identity, but it does not seem to be an identity separate from male and female. It is more like a previously unthinkable combination of male and female. But even a combination of male and female reflexively gives credence to these categories. There are still two genders.The third meaning of "trans" is beyond or through as in the word "transcutaneous." In this third sense a transgendered person is one who has gotten through gender, beyond gender. No clear gender attribution can be made, or is allowed to be made. Gender ceases to exist, both for this person and those with whom they interact. This third meaning is the most radical and the one of greatest importance to gender theorists like us who are interested in the possibility, both theoretical and real, of eliminating gender

[CrissynRandy]

I respect the opinions on both sides of this...

I apologize if this has already been brought up, but what would they tell the child if the child asks where they came from? It would be kind of strange for them to say from Daddy's tummy... I mean when the child grows up, couldnt this become an issue? Especially if the childs peers found out about it... I think maybe there should be some counseling involved somewhere in the future.

I don't fully agree or disagree on their discision. It has its positives and negatives. I'm just thinking about the mental well being of this child, and any future children concieved and born this way...

[Niobe]

Who knows what kind of screening there is for someone who wants to be a woman from the waist up and a man from the waist down. I'm pretty sure the only way you can get that is to fool the system.
No, not really. You can go overseas and get the surgeries with much less red tape. A friend of mine went somewhere in Europe for the whole process. Apparently, other countries aren't near so bureaucratic about it, or stringent?

[Niobe]

I apologize if this has already been brought up, but what would they tell the child if the child asks where they came from? It would be kind of strange for them to say from Daddy's tummy... I mean when the child grows up, couldnt this become an issue? Especially if the childs peers found out about it... I think maybe there should be some counseling involved somewhere in the future.


I'm sure the kid will end up in therapy. Don't all kids, for some reason or another nowadays? It's always something that screws kids up.

[imagirliegirl]

You would think so, right? It's perfectly logical.
But this case seems to disprove that.

Well, I don't think this one case really disproves much of anything.

[Scooter]

But isn't it pretty safe to say that society, at least most of society, doesn't want people "switching sides"? I mean, there was, and continues to be all sorts of controversy and opinions about whether or not people should do this or should be allowed to. Many people still disagree very much with the idea of being born the wrong sex.

There's always someone out there who disagrees with scientific research's findings. Otherwise Gallileo would have had an easier time of it and evolution wouldn't be considered a controversial "theory." When you look at the facts of it, it's more apparent that these people aren't just suffering from some psychological ailment, and the vast majority do not regret their decisions for surgery. When you see it from a biological basis, it's pretty hard to argue against the whole idea.


re: surgery
Not sure about the number of transgendered people who choose some surgery vs the ones who are able to afford reassignment surgery, but there is a large number of people out there in this man's shoes, who have some female and some male body parts. It's especially expensive to go from female to male, so that surgery doesn't happen as often. Plus, there are risks because the surgery is dealing with such a delicate area with thousands of nerve endings--one big risk is feeling numbness and never having the ability to have an orgasm again. That's one reason that a lot of people purposefully choose to only have "top half" surgery, because it's more routine and safer.

[pocket]

You can change your gender - social and legal, but you cannot change your sex. And male and female as we understand them are a combination of sex and gender. This man changed his gender, but he didn't change his sex because sex cannot be changed. As far as the gender reassignment stuff goes - well, I think breast implants are nasty and you would have to be a complete idiot to volunteer to have your chest cut open several times over the course of your life simply for the sake of shallow vanity. But that doesn't mean that anyone else has to agree with me about that. I also have taken and will take hormones again. And I will use ART to try and get pregnant. So I don't really think it is all that different. It's complicated.

[phoenics]

I'm sure the kid will end up in therapy. Don't all kids, for some reason or another nowadays? It's always something that screws kids up.

Yeah - but this is a pretty big something, lol. And kids and even adults can be vicious.

[heather 8^)]

I'm honestly shocked at many comments I see here. Questions about how he can be legally male and still have a uterus seem ridiculous to me... I suppose women born without a uterus or post-hysterectomy need to change their legal status to male?!? :rolleyes: It's apparent that people have very different opinions on what makes you female or male and what makes you you. I'm apparently in the minority for thinking that gender is a lot more complicated than the presence of a uterus or two X chromosomes = female/woman. What do you think of people who are X0 or XXY or any of the other syndromes from sex chromosome abnormalities?

Pregnancy and childbirth is related far more to my gender than it is my sexuality in that it affected how I felt about and viewed myself rather than what parts I do or do not have. I personally have no problem with this person being a male and chosing to have a baby, though I admit I'm surprised that he's apparently not having any emotional struggles with maintaining his masculinity while undergoing a process that is admittedly feminine.

But who knows, maybe someone from another time would wonder how I can wear jeans and still call myself a woman! :D

[dionysia]

ITA with you, Heather.

Especially this bit: "I personally have no problem with this person being a male and chosing to have a baby, though I admit I'm surprised that he's apparently not having any emotional struggles with maintaining his masculinity while undergoing a process that is admittedly feminine."

As for the some of the posts I've read on this thread, well, I get very defensive considering I have more than one friend who is transgendered.

[Sarah]

For some reason, this doesn't bother me... seems the same as a lesbian having a baby, to me.

[thedoorchick]

Questions about how he can be legally male and still have a uterus seem ridiculous to me... I suppose women born without a uterus or post-hysterectomy need to change their legal status to male?!?
This is apples to oranges. A woman can lose her uterus (or never have one) and still be a woman. A woman keeping her uterus, yet wanting in some other ways to be considered a man, is something else entirely, and the question of how someone can be considered a man if "he" was originally a woman and kept the uterus, is a reasonable one. Men do not have this organ in their normal state.

A woman can be naturally born without, or naturally lose, a uterus. A man cannot be naturally born with a uterus.

I admit I'm surprised that he's apparently not having any emotional struggles with maintaining his masculinity while undergoing a process that is admittedly feminine.
I wouldn't bet on there not being any emotional struggles with this situation.

[kedzieb]

Especially this bit: "I personally have no problem with this person being a male and chosing to have a baby, though I admit I'm surprised that he's apparently not having any emotional struggles with maintaining his masculinity while undergoing a process that is admittedly feminine."

As for the some of the posts I've read on this thread, well, I get very defensive considering I have more than one friend who is transgendered.

Well, I hope I haven't been offensive. I certainly haven't meant to be. I'm all for transgendered people having access to change their gender to what they consider to be their true gender. I think there are a lot more transgendered people 'passing' in our communities than we'd ever suspect. I feel happy that they are able to live their lifes being true to how they feel inside.

My concern, and one echoed in the gay and transgendered communities as well, is what this man getting pregnant means to other people in either same-sex or transgendered relationships. Now the law is helpful for those couples who include a man and woman - whether born that way or legally recognized. Hopefully this kind of talk will help more people understand that gender isn't so cut and dried and more benefits should be extended to homosexual couples too.

But I also worry about the personal impact on this man and his idenity too. If he truly wishes to live his life as a man, how can he reconsile this pregnancy with himself? It seems like he is continuing to be refered to and living as a man and would like to continue this. So it's not a case of him switching back and wanting to be a woman again. Does he think pregancy is compatible with being a man?

[dionysia]

That concern is my only concern with this situation (well, that and the potential effects of testosterone therapy on a fetus).

[Niobe]

Yeah - but this is a pretty big something, lol. And kids and even adults can be vicious.

But, unless told, how would outsiders even know? There are many more obvious non-traditional families. Do you feel same-sex couples shouldn't have children? Outwardly, it's much more obvious and the children would be subject to the same type of harassment. How about interracial couples? People with disabilities? Really ugly people?

[heather 8^)]

A woman can be naturally born without, or naturally lose, a uterus. A man cannot be naturally born with a uterus.
Apparently they can. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12218580?dopt=Abstract) Who knew? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_m%C3%BCllerian_duct_syndrome) But ultimately, I am unwilling to boil gender down to the presence/absence of certain organs or chromosomes. When you look at other exceptions to the rule (others that are WAY more common than the link I posted above, see here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex)), it's just not that cut and dry to me.
But I also worry about the personal impact on this man and his identity too. If he truly wishes to live his life as a man, how can he reconsile this pregnancy with himself? It seems like he is continuing to be refered to and living as a man and would like to continue this. So it's not a case of him switching back and wanting to be a woman again. Does he think pregancy is compatible with being a man? That's one thing I wonder, too. Unless he has grown so accustomed to doing things that feel right to him even though they aren't "normal" in today's society that this pregnancy is just an extension of that? I don't know, and I haven't read anything that goes into that issue.

[phoenics]

But, unless told, how would outsiders even know? There are many more obvious non-traditional families. Do you feel same-sex couples shouldn't have children? Outwardly, it's much more obvious and the children would be subject to the same type of harassment. How about interracial couples? People with disabilities? Really ugly people?

You could be right, but something like this would easily get out. It's such a huge newstory and we do live in the age of youtube. Nothing ever 'goes away'. I think because of the fascinating nature of this story, it is slightly different than children who face harassment over interracial dating and the like.

As a child though, I was so sensitive to being teased that I just know how ruthless some kids could be. I still haven't forgotten some stuff - but I didn't necessarily need therapy over it though. But I do think that while some teasing and such can make you a stronger and tougher person, some other teasing can really hurt.

I'm not saying the parents shouldn't have kids, but I do think these circumstances are extraordinarly unique. Maybe if this becomes more common then it wouldn't be so extraordinary and society could get used to it.

[phoenics]

Someone help me out here on a question:

If a person is born with both male and female organs - don't docs choose what the child is? Does that mean the person IS that?

So in the case of the man born with both organs - I thought that meant the person was androgynous (sp)? Can someone educate me a bit? Jamie Lee Curtis is androgynous, right?

[wendalah]

Does he think pregancy is compatible with being a man?

Right, that's why I said it seems like he is in an uncomfortable place. Pregnancy is not just simply a female experience. It's a deeply emotional and hormonal and...weird (for lack of a better way to put it) experience. You go through so many physical and mental changes. For someone who's already had to go through a fair amount of physical and mental readjustment--the idea (to me, anyway) of having to then go through all the further gyrations of pregnancy seems too much for any one person to handle. That's just my opinion, though.

[yby1]

Jamie Lee Curtis is androgynous, right?

It hasn't been confirmed or denied.

[Niobe]

Um... not androgynous. I think the word phoenics is looking for is hermaphrodite.

[yby1]

Here's an interesting article on the subject.

http://lifeandhealth.guardian.co.uk/family/story/0,,2268895,00.html

The dramatic picture of a bearded, apparently pregnant, Beatie has sparked horror in tabloid and conservative circles - and some are claiming it is a hoax. Fox News television channel has reported that Beatie won't be speaking to the media until his confidentiality clause ends on April 1 - April fool's day.

However, a "man" becoming pregnant is not new. Trans man Matt Rice gave birth to a baby boy in 1999, and his trans man partner, Patrick Califia, later told Village Voice magazine about his toddler son who "shrieks with delight at the sight of the tortoiseshell cat". Straight neighbours were "pretty sweet" about it, he wrote. "The only people who have gotten upset are a handful of straight-identified homophobic FTMs [female-to-male transgender people] online who started calling Matt by his girl name, because real men don't get pregnant."

The fact that even other transsexuals react with hostility reveals the levels of unease and prejudice a pregnant man can face. A common reaction is to wonder how someone can identify themselves as male and yet embrace pregnancy. "That's like saying you can't be a woman and have a career," says Christine Burns, a trans woman and equality and diversity specialist. "The irony is we've had a debate in feminism about the idea that if men were able to have children we would be in a very different position and yet when it happens there is enormous fear."...

...Elsewhere, there is professional concern about the confusion the child may later experience. "There is going to be an extra degree of complication or confusion about 'where am I from?'" says Robert Withers, a psychoanalyst who has treated transgender patients.

Kerrick Lucker, a gay activist at the University of California, Berkeley, has met two children with trans man birth mothers. "In my experience, they were extremely well-parented and well-adjusted. The only unusual challenges these kids face come from members of the public who see gender ambiguity as a great wrong," he says.

Turner says there is no reason why a child should be troubled by having been born from their father. "There are loads of trans people who have kids and I have not met one who is disturbed because of their parents." Turner does, however, acknowledge that such children may face bullying at school.

[thedoorchick]

I don't really think you can reasonably compare a man being pregnant with a woman having a career, but that's just me.

[phoenics]

Um... not androgynous. I think the word phoenics is looking for is hermaphrodite.

Thanks. I don't know very much about the subject. I was discussing this with a friend over the weekend and she used the term androgynous, so that's what I thought the proper term was. Sorry. :o

[pocket]

I'm sure it is uncomfortable and weird for him, but that is actually the only way that this couple will have a baby because she doesn't have a uterus at all. As I said, I know that Pita would suck it up and do this if he could and I couldn't. Don't you think your husbands would too if that was the only way you could have a baby? And he got pregnant naturally so he stopped taking the hormones long enough for his cycles to return. There are drugs you can take that tamp down your hormone production entirely. I’ve taken them, and so have most of the other people here who have done ART.

As for people who are born with some kind of chromosomal anomaly that causes genital malformation, in the past the accepted treatment was to do surgery to make them one sex or the other. This can actually cause a lot of problems because even if the genitals look female, if the person is chromosomally male and the brain is sexed already in utero, the person can feel very male. Giving someone genitals that look female isn’t going to make them female whether you do it at birth or later in life. Sex and gender don’t come down to just one thing. Sex and gender are a complicated combination of physical –primary and secondary characteristics and reproductive organs, hormones, social conditioning, and legal status. People who are transgender already feel like they are not the gender that matches their biology. Maybe their brains were exposed to a different mix of hormones in utero, maybe they have a hormone receptor problem, maybe they just feel like they are a dude. Who cares? Where I live there are a lot of people who don’t necessarily fit into standard gendered stereotypes in many ways. I don’t know that they necessarily have more or less problems that other people do or that their children do either.

As for the – it’s unfair to the gays – argument. Well, I have heard this before, but I think it’s kind of BS. I don’t think it is a case of all the queers have to hang together. After all, ENDA doesn’t include transgender protections and that is very contentious.

[jajacobsen]

Androgenous is having both male and female characteristics.

Hermaphrodite is having both male and female sex organs.

So all hermaphrodites are androgenous but not all androgenous persons are hermaphrodites.

I think.


The word androgenous usuallyis used in the context of how things look or appear. For example, because Pink has somewhat masculine characteristics and David Bowie has somewhat feminine, bioth have been described as androgeous. Because of her short haircut and very even features, I could see Jamie Lee Curtis being accurately described as androgenous. Whther she is a hermaprodite or not has been speculated for years.

*******

I honestly don't think this is a big deal at all. Curious? Interesting? A bit of a freak show? Yes. Will it change public policy and gender rientation on a massive basis? I think not. I mean ten years ago there was another similar circumstance and I don't think any of us ever even heard of it.

[wendalah]

Don't you think your husbands would too if that was the only way you could have a baby?

No.
He's a great guy, but I don't think he'd do it.

[yby1]

Don't you think your husbands would too if that was the only way you could have a baby?

No. I don't don't think I would want him to either. But I've never been in this position, but I can't imagine that I would feel differently about it than I do now.

[wendalah]

Whoa!

"That's like saying you can't be a woman and have a career," says Christine Burns, a trans woman and equality and diversity specialist.

That is seriously a way-out comment and I'm actually offended by it. There is no comparison between the two. Having a career is not a biological function. Furthermore, many women have to work in order to support themselves. Show me one man who NEEDS to have a baby to survive.

ETA, btw:

"The irony is we've had a debate in feminism about the idea that if men were able to have children we would be in a very different position and yet when it happens there is enormous fear."...

This quote is showing me that I'm not as open-minded about this whole story as I initially thought I would be. I just can't get past the thought, "Well, 'it' didn't really happen because this person is not naturally a man." I'm not feeling ashamed of myself for thinking this--just being honest and admitting my first thought. I can't imagine I'm the only one who thought that, either.

I don't know why--I don't have any problems accepting someone who was born a woman would want to live as a man. But I somehow can't accept this as "a man getting pregnant" in the same way I'd react if my husband miraculously got pregnant.

[wendalah]

I just had the following conversation on IM with my coworker:

ME: what if the only way you could have a biological child would be if YOU (as a dude) had to be the pregnant one.
ME: would you get pregnant?
dave: sure
ME: really?
dave: sure, unless it hurt coming out

Hehehhehe!

[jajacobsen]

Whoa!



That is seriously a way-out comment and I'm actually offended by it. There is no comparison between the two. Having a career is not a biological function. Furthermore, many women have to work in order to support themselves. Show me one man who NEEDS to have a baby to survive.


Bolding mine.

Well to be fair, I don't think women NEED to have a baby to survive, alkthough I agree the argument of a man having a baby is like a woman having a job is ridiculous.

[wendalah]

Well to be fair, I don't think women NEED to have a baby to survive

I don't think they do either!

[skyblu]

I just don't see what the big deal is, and I'm quite surprised by how judgmental so many of these posts are!

Thomas Beatie didn't change his mind about being male (and so what if he had?), he is a male who happens to have female organs and decided to carry his and his wife's child.

I'm pretty sure transgendered individuals didn't just wake up one day and choose to be of the opposite sex just for kicks, but from what I understand, they describe as feeling they were born in the wrong body, which must be truly horrible. Rectifying that with surgery, hormones or whatever it takes is probably a really difficult but worthwhile journey.

To those of you who think he's not "worthy" (really?) of being male because he has female DNA, or who think he's just a woman with lots of surgery, do you think people who have had a nose job are not worthy of having a smaller nose because they have "big nose DNA"? Or those with implants have "small boob DNA"? I'm not being snarky, I'm honestly asking, does your opinion apply to all cosmetic surgery?

I think it's great that they have this option, who am I to judge? I wouldn't dream of judging women who go through painful (emotionally and physically) and expensive fertility treatments in order to experience pregnancy. I wouldn't dream of suggesting they should try adoption or surrogacy. So why would I judge this couple or say they should have a baby in a different way thant hey chose?

[jajacobsen]

This quote is showing me that I'm not as open-minded about this whole story as I initially thought I would be. I just can't get past the thought, "Well, 'it' didn't really happen because this person is not naturally a man." I'm not feeling ashamed of myself for thinking this--just being honest and admitting my first thought. I can't imagine I'm the only one who thought that, either.

I don't know why--I don't have any problems accepting someone who was born a woman would want to live as a man. But I somehow can't accept this as "a man getting pregnant" in the same way I'd react if my husband miraculously got pregnant.


Props to you for admitting this.

I am really surprised by most of the comments here. Similar things have been said in years past about interracial marriages, surrogacy, same gender marriages, IVF, etc.

Whatever happened to 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happines." Becoming parents is something that thi scouple wants to do for happines. End of story.

[skyblu]

But I somehow can't accept this as "a man getting pregnant" in the same way I'd react if my husband miraculously got pregnant.

I don't think this means you're not open minded! I agree that knowing that this guy was formerly a woman and has the reproductive organs of a woman is not quite as surprising as thinking pregnancy was miraculously possible in someone who was born a man.

But I still think there's nothing wrong with it!

[wendalah]

Yes, that's pretty much what I meant. I don't care if the guy has a baby. I have my opinions about the whole thing, but in the end--it's not my decision to make. I just can't look at this as "Omigod! A man getting pregnant!" Like it's a scientific curiosity.

[yby1]

Yes, that's pretty much what I meant. I don't care if the guy has a baby. I have my opinions about the whole thing, but in the end--it's not my decision to make. I just can't look at this as "Omigod! A man getting pregnant!" Like it's a scientific curiosity.


Same here.

[diam124]

Totally OT, but Middlesex by Jeffrey Eugenides is a pretty interesting novel about a hermaphrodite (if anyone is interested in reading more about gender identity issues).

[imagirliegirl]

I don't know why--I don't have any problems accepting someone who was born a woman would want to live as a man. But I somehow can't accept this as "a man getting pregnant" in the same way I'd react if my husband miraculously got pregnant.

I don't see it as a man getting pregnant either. It's someone living as a man, using their female reproductive organs to have a baby. I honestly do not see how it could be seen as anything else. That's what it is! I don't think it has a thing to do with being open minded.

"The irony is we've had a debate in feminism about the idea that if men were able to have children we would be in a very different position and yet when it happens there is enormous fear."...

Here's my problem - I think this story is a horrible example of the men having children debate because when push comes to shove it is not some miraculous occurrence in which a biological male has conceived a child. You can live as you want, have whatever surgeries you want, take whatever hormones you want - but at the end of the day, this person has conceived a child with organs that were intended to conceive a child. This is not some freak scientific occurrence. If people are "fearful" or "weirded out", I would say it is because of the lifestyle of the person who is pregnant, not because of the fact that they are actually pregnant. Does that make sense? I cannot help but be a little annoyed that people are acting like it is a truly biological male having a baby when it's not.

"That's like saying you can't be a woman and have a career," says Christine Burns, a trans woman and equality and diversity specialist.

Uh...no. It's not like that at it. And to be honest, I am a tad appalled that an "equality and diversity" specialist would make such an absurd statement.

Someone asked if my husband would have a baby for us. The answer would be no, he wouldn't even consider it, because he was born a male and it would be physically impossible. I really don't see how it's a legitimate question. Sure, a husband could say "yeah baby, I'd totally do it", knowing full well he won't ever have to, because he's a man. I guess the only way it would really matter is if my husband was trans gendered and had kept his lady parts. :)

[jajacobsen]

Yes, that's pretty much what I meant. I don't care if the guy has a baby. I have my opinions about the whole thing, but in the end--it's not my decision to make. I just can't look at this as "Omigod! A man getting pregnant!" Like it's a scientific curiosity.


Put that way, I completely agree. It's a curious thing, but scientifically, not curious at all. I

[dionysia]

I don't really think you can reasonably compare a man being pregnant with a woman having a career, but that's just me.

It's not just you.

[ejs]

I read something online today that said this whole thing is a joke for Ashton Kutcher's new TV show. The truth will come out on April Fool's Day. I guess if it's a joke, we'll find out tomorrow. If it's true, we'll find out this summer.

[skyblu]

I read something online today that said this whole thing is a joke for Ashton Kutcher's new TV show. The truth will come out on April Fool's Day. I guess if it's a joke, we'll find out tomorrow. If it's true, we'll find out this summer.

The couple is going to be on Oprah later this week. I don't know if I buy that Oprah would participate in a publicity stunt such as this, at the risk of alienating audience members or losing her credibility.

I guess we'll find out tomorrow!

[imagirliegirl]

The couple is going to be on Oprah later this week. I don't know if I buy that Oprah would participate in a publicity stunt such as this, at the risk of alienating audience members or losing her credibility.


Not after the "Million Little Pieces" debacle. She's probably all sorts of paranoid! LOL

[jnettie]

I'm gonna be jumping all over the place here. But first, if this is an April Fool's joke, I'll be pissed. ;)

Right. And not only can you not do whatever you want with your body, but medical professionals are bound to seriously consider what they do to your body even if you want it.
The article itself said that he's gone through NINE doctors. Nine. There are obviously serious medical ethics considerations that have brought them to turning him away. I know that it's not unheard of for doctors to allow their religious beliefs to cloud their professional judgment. I do, however, know that most doctors in IVF care very deeply about the reproductive health of their patients and strive to help anyone they can. That no fertility clinic would take him on is quite telling.

It's hard for me to believe that anyone can seriously think this will not impact society in a big way. One might think it's a good impact, or a bad one, but this family will in no way be "normal."

My serious question of the day is, what constitutes being legally a male? This person still has female parts, and is now pregnant...That seems awfully like a woman to me, as several have pointed out. Yet the articles on this talk about this person being legally a man. How, exactly, is this person legally a man?
ITA. Especially considering the same-sex marriage debate going on now. How will this effect marriage laws? What will happen to their marriage? A legal sex change allowed this "man" and woman to marry...but now what? Current law doesn't even touch this situation. Honestly, if they love each other, I think they SHOULD be able to stay married and I'd hate for their desire for a child force the end of their marriage. Moreover, who is legally "mother" and "father"? There's lots of ways our culture as a whole has to deal with this.

And what is a "normal" family anyway? I said they'd look like a normal nuclear family - and they will - but I don't think such a thing as a "normal" family is really existent. Every family has its skeletons.
Um, well, they are in a national magazine, all over the internet, and I'm sure all their neighbors know. Don't underestimate the desire for a nasty neighbor to say something off color to the child. Or the desire of a nasty uncle to say something to the kid. The kid will know, and will find pictures. And that will definitly mess with it's mind - a lot.

The other part of this is the indignation that he can haver it "both ways," that he has to choose one and that's that. Our society is so intent on shoving everyone into a box that either says "male" or "female" that we never stop to wonder if there might be more of a spectrum with gender.
But you said it yourself - one's "gender" might be fluid, and there might be abnormalities to "sex", but for the most part you are either biologically male or female. Spectrums don't work. AFAIK most people born hermaphroditic are sterile. As far as biology goes for mammals, you need one male and one female to make a baby. Biology doesn't really care if the females feels more like a male.

To which I'd have to agree with:
But it was "our" place to change his sex to begin with - that's not exactly a "right" Mother Nature bestowed, now is it? It was only possible via society's, and science's, actions... not something he did by himself. Had he done this independently, I'd be inclined to agree with you, but that's not how it happened.

Yes, that's pretty much what I meant. I don't care if the guy has a baby. I have my opinions about the whole thing, but in the end--it's not my decision to make. I just can't look at this as "Omigod! A man getting pregnant!" Like it's a scientific curiosity.
And when push comes to shove, ITA. Am I uncomfortable? Yes. Do I disagree? Yes. Do I think it's an important discussion on ethics and gender identity? Yes. Ultimately, if this guy wants to birth a child, should he be able to? Maybe. As long as the child receives love and a stable home, that's all that really matters.

[Scooter]

One comment, since it's come up a few times--the term "hermaphodite" is no longer used, the modern term is now "intersex." Just an FYI, since that can be offensive to some people.


But you said it yourself - one's "gender" might be fluid, and there might be abnormalities to "sex", but for the most part you are either biologically male or female. Spectrums don't work. AFAIK most people born hermaphroditic are sterile. As far as biology goes for mammals, you need one male and one female to make a baby. Biology doesn't really care if the females feels more like a male.In what way does a spectrum not apply here?? I'd say that there is a spectrum with both sex and gender. There has to be one with sex, otherwise the intersexed people would be left out. And there are countless permutations of what intersexed means, anyway. With some people it's more obvious and with others it's hard to tell--just the way biology worked out. It's not a black and white system, there is quite a bit of grey with biology. There's even a rare condition called "chimera" where an embryo in utero can actually absorb its newly developing twin, and the person is left able to reproduce but has two different sets of DNA--some organs might contain XX while some contain XY. Just another example of how these things are NOT as cut and dry as you're saying.

[cosmic]

I don't see it as a man getting pregnant either. It's someone living as a man, using their female reproductive organs to have a baby. I honestly do not see how it could be seen as anything else. That's what it is! I don't think it has a thing to do with being open minded.



ITA.
I'm a very open-minded person. Be who you are. I'll call you whatever you want me to call you, take you to dinner, yadda yadda. But the physical reality is what it is. If you go into a mastectomy as a woman, you come out as a woman. I'm not bugged by it. I'm just bugged that it's suddenly un-PC to say what's what. That offends my open-mindedness, lol. ;)

[Niobe]

IUm, well, they are in a national magazine, all over the internet, and I'm sure all their neighbors know. Don't underestimate the desire for a nasty neighbor to say something off color to the child. Or the desire of a nasty uncle to say something to the kid. The kid will know, and will find pictures. And that will definitly mess with it's mind - a lot.


I didn't really think the parents would try to hide the truth from their child (though, I guess it's possible). I mostly meant the casual observer of the family (say, the parents of classmates, in a few years) would not know, just from looking, that theirs was not a traditional family.

And again, nasty neighbors, and relatives, will always say rude stuff about something. I heard it about my Hispanic father, from some of my white relatives. I also heard it about the fact my father is an atheist, from my evangelical relatives. I'm glad that neither of those two facts prevented my parents from having me.

[jnettie]

One comment, since it's come up a few times--the term "hermaphodite" is no longer used, the modern term is now "intersex." Just an FYI, since that can be offensive to some people.
I know of no other word to use...sorry! I have never heard the word intersex.

On the biology aspect...yeah, I know, there are genetic mutations and all sorts of things that *can* happen, but do these mutations still allow for procreation? Don't you still need one person with XX and one with XY to make a baby? In this case, I'd actually like to know. :) My comment was that AFAIK, those born with both male and female sex organs are generally infertile. If this is wrong, please clarify.

I didn't really think the parents would try to hide the truth from their child (though, I guess it's possible). I mostly meant the casual observer of the family (say, the parents of classmates, in a few years) would not know, just from looking, that theirs was not a traditional family.

:o Sorry! I thought you were saying "hey, how will the kid ever know!" My mistake! In any event, I still think that everyone around them will know, and very quickly. Gossip travels fast.

[jh124]

From Perez Hilton:

The much buzzed about 'pregnant man', Thomas Beatie will be a guest on Oprah's show Thursday.

Beatie's a transgender man that is expecting a child. Though he underwent surgery to switch genders, he kept his female reproductive organs and is nearly six months pregnant.

He tells Oprah that his current wife Nancy is unable to conceive and that's the only reason he's going through with the pregnancy. Beatie was able to conceive via artificial insemination.

Thomas tells Oprah in a show clip, "I'm a person and I have the right to have my own biological child."

He expects to deliver a girl around July 3rd.

[pocket]

In any event, I still think that everyone around them will know, and very quickly. Gossip travels fast.

I think that fewer people than you think will be shocked about this. This couple lives in Seattle, one of the queer-friendliest places in the whole entire world. And dog-friendliest, BTW, you can take your dog on the bus, but it has to pay full-fare. As someone who lives in another super-queer-friendly place, the SF Bay Area, it is just not as big a deal as you think it is. Lots of families look different around here, and there is a lot of community support for families that are different. It took me more than a year to figure out the genders of my down the street neighbors since one of them has a very androgenous style and could have been either a man or a woman. Some very good friends of our are a Jewish couple with a Pakistani kid and one of the members of the couple is pretty androgenous. She doesn't portray herself as a man, but you wouldn't necessarily think she was a woman upon meeting her. I don't think kids make fun of their daughter at school. I know the family pretty well, and my MIL is a teacher at her school so I think I would have heard. Many children at the school have parents who are queer of one variety or another. It is quite possible to raise open-minded children in an environment that censors that kind of taunting. Just as racial taunting might have once been acceptable and is no longer acceptable among children or adults.

The world is a large and varied place.

And there are a lot of different kinds of chromosomal anomalies with different effects on sex characteristics and fertility. I think that probably those people can still use ART to conceive even if their natural biology doesn't allow it.

[imagirliegirl]

On Oprah, Thomas said "I always knew I might want to have a baby". I'm no doctor, so I could be off, but isn't it irresponsible to take testosterone knowing you might get pregnant someday? :confused: Even if you go off of it for awhile. I don't know, it just seems like a weird choice.

I honestly felt like he came off a little flippant about the whole thing. It might just be a personality issue, who knows.

I do wish that he was a little more willing to acknowledge that this is only possible because of the prior existence of female reproductive organs. It is a little bothersome that they want to act like this is the miracle of a man having a baby when it's a baby growing where babies grow. I think it would be a little less "off putting" if there was just that little acknowledgment. Does that make sense? I mean, having babies is an exclusively female experience due to biology. Just because you live as a man, take hormones etc...doesn't mean that the experience of having a baby has biologically shifted to men. Maybe for this one individual it feels like a male experience, but when push comes to shove, it's only because of those female organs.

I don't know. I know that the bottom line is about a kid having parents that will love it. And it doesn't really bother me...just for the sake of conversation, and the fact that they are putting it out all over the national media as something I just think it's not.

Maybe this has been answered already and I missed it - but how will this affect the status of the marriage? If you birth a child, doesn't that make you a woman? And if you're a woman, you can't legally be married to another woman. Do we know?

[ejs]

Maybe this has been answered already and I missed it - but how will this affect the status of the marriage? If you birth a child, doesn't that make you a woman? And if you're a woman, you can't legally be married to another woman. Do we know?
He is legally considered a man. This will have no affect on the validity of their marriage.

[imagirliegirl]

He is legally considered a man. This will have no affect on the validity of their marriage.

So once you're legally considered a man you can't do anything to jeopardize that? That just doesn't make sense.

[jesseybell]

As someone who knows very little about hormones, I found it interesting that he still had facial hair after having not taken testosterone for over 2 years (or maybe it was 2 years prior to getting pregnant the first time). It isn't as thick as it was in one of the pictures on Oprah where he had a mustache and a five o'clock shadow.

I loved how he said that even though he is pregnant, it isn't making him want to be a woman again.

He was quite gorgeous as a woman!

I found the show good and very imforative. I liked Thomas a lot more than I liked Nancy - she kind of rubbed me the wrong way.

[ejs]

So once you're legally considered a man you can't do anything to jeopardize that? That just doesn't make sense.
Well, you can take hormones, have surgery, etc to become a woman and then legally change your gender again.

[imagirliegirl]

I liked Thomas a lot more than I liked Nancy - she kind of rubbed me the wrong way.

Is it me or did she seem quite a bit older? Maybe Thomas just looked deceptively young. Did they mention their ages?

Re: the legal issue. It's just surprising to me that one could legally change status from female to male but do something "exclusively" female like birth a child, yet still legally be a male. That's all I was saying.

[Amuse Bouche]

I think there's an interesting legal question here about pregnancy discrimination. It's currently illegal in large part because of the equal protection clause. Women are a protected cl