"typical white woman"

[jennylou]

Obama made this comment on a radio show last week after his speech about race.

The point I was making was not that my grandmother harbors any racial animosity, but that she is a typical white person. If she sees somebody on the street that she doesn't know (pause) there's a reaction in her that doesn't go away and it comes out in the wrong way."

When I heard it, I was like, huh, he's talking about his white grandmother - who has to be what 80 or so? Maybe more? That to me was a comment about the generation in which his grandmother came from.

Of course, they discussed this on The View this morning and Elizabeth Hasselbeck was all over being "a typical white women".

Anyways, the comment totally didn't offend me. And, I'm just curious if it offended the general population? I didn't want to post this just in the Obama thread, as I wanted HRC, JM and Independent supporters to respond as well. :)

[KiKi'sMommy]

I think it is a little offensive. It is a stereotype and he talks so much about breaking down those generalizations, it is a little disappointing. It bothers me that if this were to be said about any other race, it would be a much bigger deal, but since he was referring to "white" people, then it is okay. I am a strong believer in breaking down those racial stereotypes and this includes ALL races.
I still love Obama though!! :)

[yby1]

I'm not white, but the more someone talks about race issues, not matter how the benign conversation is, the more others will find something to be offended about.

I hope that most of the conversations with Senator Obama going won't be centered around the race issue, but that will just dig him in a hole - anybody put in that situation would be in the same position.

[nic]

As a white women, I'm offended by the comment, as I would be if John McCain used the phrase "typical black women." IMO, it's uncalled for.

[KiKi'sMommy]

As a white women, I'm offended by the comment, as I would be if John McCain used the phrase "typical black women." IMO, it's uncalled for.

I agree. There is no reason, no matter what race you are discussing, to generalize on such a broad level. I would be offended even if Obama said "typical black women." It is a stereotype, plain and simple.

[moderngal]

It is disappointing- that someone that just gave a great speech about breaking down racial stereotypes made such a stupid and gross generalization. I am also a little annoyed that it really is being almost overlooked because hes the Democrats favorite son right now. It doesnt matter who said it, IMO, it shouldn't have been said.

[thedoorchick]

I don't know that I'm personally offended, because my tolerance for such things is pretty high, and besides that, the comment was just so silly as to be ridiculous. There is no such thing as a "typical white woman."

However, I agree it's inappropriate, because it is stereotypical, and I don't care what type of person you're talking about, going down that road never leads to anything good.

[udsweetpea]

Whether its offensive or not to us, its true. White women in their 80s still have reactions to black people. It comes from the way they were raised. I know old, white ladies who still say "colored". They don't mean it to be offensive.

Elizabeth Hasslebeck will always be offended at something. She's supporting her own party.

[PinkMartini]

I don't know that I'm personally offended, because my tolerance for such things is pretty high, and besides that, the comment was just so silly as to be ridiculous. There is no such thing as a "typical white woman."

However, I agree it's inappropriate, because it is stereotypical, and I don't care what type of person you're talking about, going down that road never leads to anything good.

ICAM! Although it almost feel like as a 'white woman' I don't have the 'right' to be offended, kwim?

[PinkMartini]

Whether its offensive or not to us, its true. White women in their 80s still have reactions to black people. It comes from the way they were raised. I know old, white ladies who still say "colored". They don't mean it to be offensive.

Well I guess my grandma is the exception to the rule then, because she'll be 79 this year and doesn't have a racist bone in her body :confused: She's definitely not a 'typical white woman' :rolleyes:

[udsweetpea]

Well I guess my grandma is the exception to the rule then, because she'll be 79 this year and doesn't have a racist bone in her body :confused: She's definitely not a 'typical white woman' :rolleyes:

Well, it could most definitely be a regional thing.

[wendalah]

I'm not offended, but I think the comment was a dumb move on his part, and if a white person said it about any other race there would be an uproar beyond belief. (I say this neutrally. I don't think it's wrong or right that there would be an uproar. Just saying...for sure there'd be a fit thrown over it.)

[wendalah]

BTW, I had some similar thoughts about Mitt Romney. The commentary made about his religion was a freaking free-for-all. If the same commentary had been made about any other religious group, there would have been hell raised.

[phoenics]

Well I guess my grandma is the exception to the rule then, because she'll be 79 this year and doesn't have a racist bone in her body :confused: She's definitely not a 'typical white woman' :rolleyes:

Obama wasn't talking about racism - he was talking about being prejudiced. Clutching your purse when a brotha comes around is not racist - it's prejudiced on the basis of race - but it doesn't mean that you are a racist. It just means that you've been sold the same propaganda nonsense that everyone else was sold about black men and about how they should be feared.

Even I, as a black woman have been shaped by the society that I live in - the society that demonizes black men... so much so that I remember clutching my purse once on an elevator when a thuggish looking brotha walked in and then I was ashamed.

We ALL got ingrained with the same racial stereotyping messages, black white - it doesn't matter.

[Delta]

He talked about this in greater detail in his first book - it stemmed from an instance of his grandmother not wanting to ride the bus to work any longer after being approached for money from a black person. It had a pretty big impact on him, apparently. In that book he also discusses his own evolving unconscious reactions later in his life to young black men he encounters.

As for this comment, I'll just say I'm sick of gotcha politics.

[Sarah]

Meh, doesn't bother me. I think everyone has some prejudices- maybe not against African Americans, but against someone, not necessarily based on race, but on tons of different factors- ethnicity, class, or some other random thing. I know I do. They're not intentional, but I have them, and I work against them. There are tons of people (white) who want to claim they are "color blind" (which is such a stupid expression) or "don't care about race!" and that's usually just an excuse to not look at our own ugly prejudices, I think.

I do think the comment was sort of unwise, and he needs to think before he speaks- that sort of comment might fly in a private discussion, but the President should be a bit more diplomatic.

I'm not an Obama supported, but I do think it's exciting that he's not afraid to have a real discussion about race, when so many liberals just want to claim it's all fixed.

[nylons73]

Jennylou - I think we should start with printing Sen. Obama's actual quote in it's context:

“The point I was making was not that my grandmother harbors any racial animosity, she doesn’t. But she is a typical white person who…if she sees somebody on the street that she doesn’t know, there’s a reaction in her that’s been bred into our experiences that don’t go away. And that sometimes come out in the wrong way.”

Sources: MSNBC and Youtube.

I think that the entire quote is important. What Obama was saying is that white people are NOT inherently racist. However, over time, white people might have a common reaction to an unknown African-American passing them by on the street.

I consider myself not racist in the least little bit. For a time, I actually worked for the Dean of the Congressional Black Caucus on Capitol Hill. However, I can't say that if I found myself, alone, on the street, with a cadre of young black youths gathered ahead of me, that I wouldn't at least have some sort of 'fear reaction.'

This reaction is not based on my 'harboring racial animosity.' But it is based on the ingrained information I have taken in that I ~should be~ scared of young black youths whom I don't know. I would try hard to overcome this fear, of course, but I am being completely honest here.

Any white person (whether they are someone's grandmother or not) who can confidently claim that they would walk down the street in a major city and not feel some 'discomfort' at being completely surrounded by African-Americans (strangers) is probably overestimating their level of comfort with those who do not look like themselves.

[jennylou]

nylons - thanks, what I posted above was the best I could find on the actual quote online!

And, while I'd be uncomfortable walking down the street at night with a group of young black men walking towards me, I'd be uncomfortable with anyone walking towards me - I can be a bit of a 'fraidy cat, lol!

[nylons73]

nylons - thanks, what I posted above was the best I could find on the actual quote online!

And, while I'd be uncomfortable walking down the street at night with a group of young black men walking towards me, I'd be uncomfortable with anyone walking towards me - I can be a bit of a 'fraidy cat, lol!

No prob. I think part of the problem is that the quote HAS been altered and it doesn't appear very many places in it's entire context anymore.

At any rate, I totally agree with you on the whole 'anyone' walking towards me. I remember one time in a sociology class, we were talking about "would be afraid to get into an elevator with an African-American man" (don't ask me how this topic started but I do remember that this particular question was directed at the women in the class.) My answer was something along the lines of I'd be afraid to get into an elevator with ANY strange man (if it was just me and the man.) I remember the professor kind of viewing me as a 'fraidy cat' with my answer, but I am sorry. I have seen too many Law and Orders or something for me to feel comfortable being alone with a stranger.

[msnicolea]

I agree with Delta--so sick of the "gotchas"."

The context of that quote is necessary. And Elizabeth Hasselback needs to STFU.-- I am not a violent person, but I really want to punch her in the next sometimes.

[msnicolea]

Whether its offensive or not to us, its true. White women in their 80s still have reactions to black people. It comes from the way they were raised. I know old, white ladies who still say "colored". They don't mean it to be offensive.


Comments like this need to be qualified with words such as "some women"--I reject these stereotypes, regardless of region.

[Niobe]

And, while I'd be uncomfortable walking down the street at night with a group of young black men walking towards me, I'd be uncomfortable with anyone walking towards me - I can be a bit of a 'fraidy cat, lol!

You know, if you read the actual quote of what Obama said, this is ALL he said. He didn't actually link race to his grandmother's fear at all.
if she sees somebody on the street that she doesn’t know

Elizabeth Hasselback is an ignorant twit who enjoys carrying her shopping bags more than her own child. Screw her. :rolleyes:

[wendalah]

While, again, I am not offended by this--I don't see how his full quote "in context" really makes it all that much better. You say "typical white/black/asian/whatever person" you're going to anger someone, no matter what context bookends it.

Elizabeth Hasselback is an ignorant twit who enjoys carrying her shopping bags more than her own child.

:rolleyes: Talk about stupid female stereotypes. I'm not the hugest fan of hers, but this is immature and lame.

[yby1]

While, again, I am not offended by this--I don't see how his full quote "in context" really makes it all that much better. You say "typical white/black/asian/whatever person" you're going to anger someone, no matter what context bookends it.



:rolleyes: Talk about stupid female stereotypes. I'm not the hugest fan of hers, but this is immature and lame.


Agreed on both points.

I understand what Obama is saying and I'm not in the least offended, but that could have been worded better. But like I said before, the more you talk about an issue as sensitive as this one, the more likely you'll end up saying something that will bother someone.

[nic]

Jennylou, I'm a chicken too, I'm anxious being surrounded by any group of people I don't know but I don't think that makes me a "typical whie women", I attribute it to anxiety and other life circumstance.

[Niobe]

:rolleyes: Talk about stupid female stereotypes. I'm not the hugest fan of hers, but this is immature and lame.

I'm not stereotyping, I'm snarking on the multiple pictures I've seen of her smiling with armloads of shopping bags while the nanny pushes the child behind her in a stroller. :rolleyes:

[tandt]

As a white women, I'm offended by the comment, as I would be if John McCain used the phrase "typical black women." IMO, it's uncalled for.

What a $h!t storm this would start if McCain, a white man, said this!

Not just saying 'typical black women' but also 'typical black man' or 'typical asian man/woman' or 'typical hispanic man/woman,' yada, yada, yada.

Let's not forget that racist or prejudiced goes one way, it can go any way in this world.

Hopefully we can begin to focus on the issues important to each of us and who is everyone's individual choice to tackle them.

Honestly, I'll admit it, I'm voting for McCain-- no questions asked. I look forward to the time when we have an African-American or woman President (or any other), but the not with the antics from Obama or Clinton.

Edited: wendalah, we must be on similar thoughts-- we x-posted at the same time about my second line!

[wendalah]

I'm snarking on the multiple pictures I've seen of her smiling with armloads of shopping bags while the nanny pushes the child behind her in a stroller.

Are you a working mother? If not, then STFU. Sorry to be rude, but just as you don't care for her attack on Obama, I see red when people attack women on this level.

[Niobe]

She's a professional shopper?

[yby1]

She's a professional shopper?

I don't care for Hassleback, since I don't watch "The View," but lets be realistic here. The woman does work.

[allyray231]

I don't love the comment. And I don't think it was the best use of words. But I hate to say that I don't think he is off base with some older woman who have been raised in certain regional areas.

[wendalah]

Last time I checked, she was an on-air cohost of a successful television program, as well as the mother of two children, who doubtlessly is compensated quite nicely for her work and damn well has the right to hire a nanny and/or buy as many things as her budget allows.

[tandt]

Last time I checked, she was an on-air cohost of a successful television program, as well as the mother of two children, who doubtlessly is compensated quite nicely for her work and damn well has the right to hire a nanny and/or buy as many things as her budget allows.


No doubt! I agree wendalah, how did this become an argument about EH?

[wendalah]

BTW, I'm not trying to pull a "mom card" here. I just have a lot of respect for women who balance work and a family (because yes, I do personally know how hard this is) and I literally see red when comments like the aforementioned are made.

BTW I hire a nanny and I like to shop, too. My God, I wheeled my kid through Banana Republic the other day in a STROLLER! (The nanny doesn't work weekends.)

[Niobe]

I was joking with the professional shopper comment.

My critique was not of the nanny. Nannies rock. My critique was on the choice to carry her shopping bags rather than push her child's stroller, or carry her child. Usually, you see the reverse.

[Niobe]

No doubt! I agree wendalah, how did this become an argument about EH?

I made an offhand remark that was poorly received and somewhat misinterpreted. Oops.

[yby1]

I was joking with the professional shopper comment.

My critique was not of the nanny. Nannies rock. My critique was on the choice to carry her shopping bags rather than push her child's stroller, or carry her child. Usually, you see the reverse.


The nanny is there to take care of the child, not to carry shopping bags.

[jesvet]

The nanny is there to take care of the child, not to carry shopping bags.

I was just about to post the same thing. My nanny would be offended if I asked her to carry the shopping bags. Actually, since I am an ever suckier mom, I would have left the kids at home with the nanny so I could be free to shop without distraction AND go to Starbucks. And get a pedicure.

[kedzieb]

I was just about to post the same thing. My nanny would be offended if I asked her to carry the shopping bags. Actually, since I am an ever suckier mom, I would have left the kids at home with the nanny so I could be free to shop without distraction AND go to Starbucks. And get a pedicure.

That's my plan too.

[wendalah]

BTW, I really should not pull a mom card, because I am going back on my own assertations that it's lame to say only moms can comment on motherly things such as holding children vs. shopping bags. So, with the breeding factor removed--I'll just say I still found the comment offensive on a working-woman level. Because, as a working woman, I can spend my money, that I have legally earned, as I please and f-ck whoever tries to criticize me for how I spend it.

[msnicolea]

I think she is a mindless twit, but it has nothing to do with who carries her children or her shopping bags!

I'm not a fan of this comment, even though I understand it in context. I wish he hadn't said it, because the talk surrounding it will distract us, once again, from actual ISSUES.

[Sarah]

Because, as a working woman, I can spend my money, that I have legally earned, as I please and f-ck whoever tries to criticize me for how I spend it.The grammar of this is a little funny, Wendeleh. It made it sound, when I first skimmed your post, like you were going to f--- whoever criticized you. :)

ITA with your post, though.

[wendalah]

Well, I certainly will raise the finger to whomever wants to criticize me for f--king whomever I want, as well. ;)

[Sarah]

Well, I certainly will raise the finger to whomever wants to criticize me for f--king whomever I want, as well. ;)

F--- whomever you'd like, I won't try and stop you!:D

[wendalah]

Well...actually...I probably would not flip my mother off if she disapproves of whom I f--k. Come to think of it.

[nic]

don't love the comment. And I don't think it was the best use of words. But I hate to say that I don't think he is off base with some older woman who have been raised in certain regional areas.

I think this argument could work for a number of stereotypes though, doesn't make it right in my opinion.

[KiKi'sMommy]

Honestly, I'll admit it, I'm voting for McCain-- no questions asked. I look forward to the time when we have an African-American or woman President (or any other), but the not with the antics from Obama or Clinton.


Antics from Obama?? Not to get off-topic, but I can guarantee you haven't seen any "antics" from McCain because he has no competition within the Republican party at this point in the game.

[jennylou]

Jennylou, I'm a chicken too, I'm anxious being surrounded by any group of people I don't know but I don't think that makes me a "typical whie women", I attribute it to anxiety and other life circumstance.

Oh, I'm not saying I'm a typical white woman either. ;) Unless they come out with a poll that says 85% plus say that they are 'fraidy cats and their pulse starts racing if they see any group of men coming at them. :)

[tandt]

Antics from Obama?? Not to get off-topic, but I can guarantee you haven't seen any "antics" from McCain because he has no competition within the Republican party at this point in the game.

I understand what you're saying, but my statement was more about the Obama/Clinton things that THEY have done and how it has basically ruled them out for me-- not to imply that McCain is the perfect candidate, but when given the 3 options, he's my choice. :)

Obama- The pastor/church thing is it for me. Either you are not telling the truth, or have been sleeping in church for the past 20 years to never have heard the sirmons that have now surfaced. I guess Obama *just happen* to be absent on the days where the KKK was mentioned. Uh, yeah.

Clinton- Been there, done that. Saw her White House methods a few years ago. All done.

[PinkMartini]

Obama- The pastor/church thing is it for me. Either you are not telling the truth, or have been sleeping in church for the past 20 years to never have heard the sirmons that have now surfaced. I guess Obama *just happen* to be absent on the days where the KKK was mentioned. Uh, yeah.

Clinton- Been there, done that. Saw her White House methods a few years ago. All done.

Oooooh thanks for summing up my feelings on the presidental nominees :D

[Niobe]

Obama- The pastor/church thing is it for me. Either you are not telling the truth, or have been sleeping in church for the past 20 years to never have heard the sirmons that have now surfaced. I guess Obama *just happen* to be absent on the days where the KKK was mentioned. Uh, yeah.

He did recently say in an interview that he hasn't been going to church much in the past few years. And if you consider how much he's been in D.C. the past four years, and in Springfield for the years before that, it's likely he really hasn't been attending his hometown church on a regular basis for some years now.

[msnicolea]

So, tandt, you are saying that you are voting for McCain because of Obama's relationship with Rev. Wright? Do you maybe tend to vote Republican/support Republican candidates already?

I always find it odd when people make statements about how such and such happened so now they aren't coting for X--when they never would have voted for X in the 1st place!

Not saying you, tandt--perhaps you were actually supporting him--but it has happened to me twice this week in my office!

[phoenics]

I understand what you're saying, but my statement was more about the Obama/Clinton things that THEY have done and how it has basically ruled them out for me-- not to imply that McCain is the perfect candidate, but when given the 3 options, he's my choice. :)

Obama- The pastor/church thing is it for me. Either you are not telling the truth, or have been sleeping in church for the past 20 years to never have heard the sirmons that have now surfaced. I guess Obama *just happen* to be absent on the days where the KKK was mentioned. Uh, yeah.

Clinton- Been there, done that. Saw her White House methods a few years ago. All done.

I thought you were republican, tandt? So wouldn't it be safe to say that you likely would not have voted for Obama or Clinton anyway?

For all of the 20 years of clips of sermons from Rev Wright and those 2 30 sec clips were ALL they could find in all of the nasty perusing of the clips... it's not like Rev Wright was saying that stuff for 20 years STRAIGHT. He made 3 isolated comments. You can be darn sure that if there had been 20 straight years of that, we'd have much more than 2 30 second clips.

But we don't.

I haven't seen any antics from Obama. Some I've seen from Clinton - but I've already seen a few from McCain and his ilk (the Hussein thing foremost in my mind).

If McCain wins, get back to me in 4 years when the economy is crap and we're still mired in Iraq and people are dying from no healthcare. Obama made such a good point in his speech about focusing on these useless issues and then 4, 8, 12 years go by and NOTHING has changed.

[phoenics]

So, tandt, you are saying that you are voting for McCain because of Obama's relationship with Rev. Wright? Do you maybe tend to vote Republican/support Republican candidates already?

I always find it odd when people make statements about how such and such happened so now they aren't coting for X--when they never would have voted for X in the 1st place!

Not saying you, tandt--perhaps you were actually supporting him--but it has happened to me twice this week in my office!

I don't think tandt was ever going to vote Democrat. Didn't you say, tandt, that you were a republican or a republican supporter?

[wendalah]

I don't think tandt was ever going to vote Democrat. Didn't you say, tandt, that you were a republican or a republican supporter?

Believe it or not, you can be a Republican and not necessarily vote for a Republican candidate. I am a Republican and undecided on who I'll vote for. I align with a lot of McCain's views, but don't think the country is in the right place right now for another Republican in office.

[nylons73]

I understand what you're saying, but my statement was more about the Obama/Clinton things that THEY have done and how it has basically ruled them out for me-- not to imply that McCain is the perfect candidate, but when given the 3 options, he's my choice. :)

Obama- The pastor/church thing is it for me. Either you are not telling the truth, or have been sleeping in church for the past 20 years to never have heard the sirmons that have now surfaced. I guess Obama *just happen* to be absent on the days where the KKK was mentioned. Uh, yeah.

Clinton- Been there, done that. Saw her White House methods a few years ago. All done.

tandt - Obama did not say that he was sleeping for 20 years. However, he was NOT there on the days that the 'inflammatory' sermons were given. He was not in attendance, nor was Michelle. He WAS in attendance when a lot of positive, biblical things were said and that is why he has continued to attend this church.

What you are surmising is that every.single.Sunday. Rev. Wright says "US of KKK-A" Do you honestly believe that Rev. Wright said something like this every week? If so, where are the tapes? Every sermon has been taped (at least audio taped) and therefore if Rev. Wright had said things like this repeatedly and often, then we should have ample evidence that he made this a habit in his sermons. The truth is that Trinity UCC has a large amount of white people attending his church and I highly doubt that every sunday Rev. Wright spoke like this without losing his many white parishoners.

And, as long as you feel so strongly.....How do you feel about John McCain, seeking out the support (actually calling and seeking the support of) Pastor John Hagee. Pastor Hagee has preached that the Catholic church is "The Great Whore"

Catholic League President Bill Donohue said in a statement today that Hagee has written extensively in negative ways about the Catholic Church, "calling it 'The Great Whore,' an 'apostate church,' the 'anti-Christ,' and a 'false cult system.'" http://blog.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/02/28/mccain_endorsement_angers_cath.html

Hagee has also said that Hurricane Katrina happened because there was going to be a "Homosexual Parade" on the Monday of the disaster and God wanted to make sure that this would not happen.

Again, Pastor Hagee is a man whom John McCain ACTIVELY sought out for an endorsement. This was not just a spontaneous endorsement, this was one that was sought out by McCain.

Another winner, Pastor Rod Parsely. This is someone whom John McCain has called his "spiritual guide." Parsely actively campaigned with McCain in Ohio. Among other things, Parsely called for "Christians" to wage a war against the false religion of Islam, with the aim of destroying it." He also said :

The fact is that America was founded, in part, with the intention of seeing this false religion destroyed, and I believe September 11, 2001, was a generational call to arms that we can no longer ignore.

WTF??????? http://www.motherjones.com/washington_dispatch/2008/03/john-mccain-rod-parsley-spiritual-guide.html I am sure that the American-Muslim servicemen and women who are risking their lives in Iraq right now would be thrilled to hear that a John McCain supporter is calling for their religion to be destroyed.

Should we make every single Member of Congress who attends any house of worship resign their House or Senate seats because they attend a church that may, once and a while, be controversial? Should Republicans now NOT vote for John McCain because he has the enthusiastic support of Parsely and Hagee?

Barack Obama did not storm out of his church and did not throw his pastor under the bus because 'inflammatory' talk from Wright was NOT habitual. Wright simply did not get up there and say offensive stuff every day.

If all Wright spewed was inflammatory content for 30 years, why in the world would Bill Clinton invite Rev. Wright to the White House to pray with him? How in the world did Rev. Wright get a security clearance to get INTO the White House? I think reasonable people might make the assumption that these kind of angry outbursts that we are seeing from Wright are the EXCEPTION (just as I hope the statements from John McCain's two supporters are the Exception) and not the norm!

In general do not hold someone's pastor's comments against them. If I did, I probably would not have many Catholic friends, since many of my Catholic friends attend churches where the priests rail against homosexuality. I don't agree, but I don't throw my Catholic friends under the bus for going to church every single Sunday because I realise that their priests' controversal statements are not reflective of what my friends truly believe. I would hope voters would give Barack Obama the same benefit of the doubt.

[wendalah]

Pastor Hagee has preached that the Catholic church is "The Great Whore"


Not condoning this, but as a Catholic I'm not horribly shocked by this. It's a fairly mainstream evangelical Christian viewpoint.

[Anna Low]

I'm not tandt, but DH and I are both democrats and if Obama is the nominee, we will likely be voting for McCain - if we can bring ourselves to even vote at all. The whole race on both sides has deeply disappointed us - we were so sure that a light was at the end of the tunnel after the Bush misery. Not so much now.

[phoenics]

Not condoning this, but as a Catholic I'm not horribly shocked by this. It's a fairly mainstream evangelical Christian viewpoint.

Good gosh - not in the circles I'm familiar with and that's the bible belt south.

[wendalah]

Sorry, Phoenics, but it's true. You'll find a lot of Protestants with that viewpoint, unfortunately.

[phoenics]

Believe it or not, you can be a Republican and not necessarily vote for a Republican candidate. I am a Republican and undecided on who I'll vote for. I align with a lot of McCain's views, but don't think the country is in the right place right now for another Republican in office.

That's not really what I meant. I think that some people casually looked at Obama and then accepted Fox's spin on the Wright statements without looking any deeper and then jumped to conclusions like tandt did about Obama 'sleeping in that church for 20 years' when there is NO evidence to support that Wright talked like that for 20 years.

Since the sermons were taped (as I said and as nylons said again above), if there were 20 years of that - or even 10, wouldn't Fox have endless clips to run - not just the same TWO 30 sec clips they continually run out of context over and over again?

It's tandt's quick jump to say that Obama's pulled 'antics' (I haven't seen him pull any) and her jump to crucify him over the Wright controversy that has me thinking she was looking for a reason to vote republican. Knowing that she was already republican just shows where she's coming from and how she might interpret things that democrats might interpret differently.

[phoenics]

Sorry, Phoenics, but it's true. You'll find a lot of Protestants with that viewpoint, unfortunately.

That surprises me.

[wendalah]

I think that some people casually looked at Obama and then accepted Fox's spin on the Wright statements without looking any deeper and then jumped to conclusions like tandt did about Obama 'sleeping in that church for 20 years' when there is NO evidence to support that Wright talked like that for 20 years.


Well, look, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but it's fairly obvious from your posts that you are a very dedicated Obama supporter. Is this why you are jumping to the conclusion that T&T is jumping to a conclusion? I know many quite thoughtful people who are not thrilled with Obama right now.

PS: If you are wondering, I'm kind of neutral on him. I am not on fire for him but I prefer him to Hillary, and my gut feeling is he will win in November. My husband likes him quite a bit and plans to vote for him.

[nylons73]

Not condoning this, but as a Catholic I'm not horribly shocked by this. It's a fairly mainstream evangelical Christian viewpoint.

Sure, but do you like the fact that McCain is seeking the endorsement of and running around publically with someone who supports this idea?

You can find 'men of the cloth' who say just about anything on any given Sunday. But to seek out the support of someone like Hagee is a bit curious for a man as respected and honorable as John McCain.

Anna Low - I'm sad to hear about your decision, and as much as I like McCain, my DH is a US Marine, and we have many friends over in Iraq right now. I can't support McCain and have him continue this horrible war. I just can't. I'm a Democrat first and this war has to end. Unless McCain vows to get us out of this war, I can't pull the lever for McCain. I do like the man, I do respect him and his service to the country. But - I don't think continuing this war and possibly going into Iran (as McCain has said he might do) is the right way for this country to go.

That being said, I have had it with Billary as well. I'm really stuck if Obama doesn't get the nod.

[wendalah]

Sure, but do you like the fact that McCain is seeking the endorsement of and running around publically with someone who supports this idea?

Do I like the fact that my grandmother cried when my father converted to Catholicism? Do I like that my mother-in-law thinks I'm going to hell? I still socialize with both of them.

Like I said, it's a commonplace view. I don't love it but as I said, I'm not shocked by it and don't find it radical.

[phoenics]

Well, look, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but it's fairly obvious from your posts that you are a very dedicated Obama supporter. Is this why you are jumping to the conclusion that T&T is jumping to a conclusion? I know many quite thoughtful people who are not thrilled with Obama right now.

I do too - my mom among them - although she was already going to vote for Hillary. So for her, this was just a 'you made the right decision' kind of thing. She refuses to look at the Wright comments in context and she refuses to even discuss it and she's tarred Obama with the same brush that many have tarred Wright. I asked her to listen to the whole sermon and she yelled back that she didn't need to. To me, that's not thoughtful. Of course, there could be other thoughtful people who will listen - but unless you actually do a lot of historical research to understand Wright's comments in context and even go back to look at the reality of the racial divide in this country, you're kind of operating without all of the information. Truly thoughtful people I am not worried about, because I know they aren't just reacting.

My parents have been going to the same church now for 20 years, yet they have come home from time to time griping about something the pastor said - or how they didn't like this or that. Yet they haven't left.

It does not say anything bad about them that they didn't leave. And it doesn't mean they agree with everything pastor said.

The point is though, that my mom latched onto this controversy as a way to justify voting for Hillary (when that's what she wanted to do from day one anyway, because Hillary is a woman)... that's how I took tandt's comments as well, because she didn't quantify what she meant by 'antics' (and as I said, I havent' seen any antics by Obama)... she just threw out some vagaries and such and let that be that. Maybe if she listed the 'antics'?

I think tandt is fiscally conservative - thus I think it unlikely that she'd vote for a democrat in the first place. There's nothing wrong with that - but fronting as though you would have and then using the Wright thing to say 'not anymore!' seems like you weren't really considering it in the first place seriously.

[nylons73]

Well, look, I'm not trying to be argumentative, but it's fairly obvious from your posts that you are a very dedicated Obama supporter. Is this why you are jumping to the conclusion that T&T is jumping to a conclusion? I know many quite thoughtful people who are not thrilled with Obama right now.

PS: If you are wondering, I'm kind of neutral on him. I am not on fire for him but I prefer him to Hillary, and my gut feeling is he will win in November. My husband likes him quite a bit and plans to vote for him.

I think you make an excellent point. I don't think all people are 'rushing to judgement' about Rev. Wright. A lot of people are thinking very carefully about what religion, race, etc. means to them and to this race. They are also thinking about the issues and about whom they think would be best for this country.

However, I do think that there are some people out there, who have seen only the 3 clips of Wright, and are now ready to write Obama off completely. (no pun intended! ;) ) These are the people I hope do not take the 3 clips and equate it to a lifetime of good works by Wright. Just as I don't take the few statements I have seen from Parsely and Hagee and immediately assume that they have done nothing good in their communities. Heck! - the church down the street from my house (Methodist) does a lot of good in our community, and yet their pastor was just removed because it was discovered that he was a porn-addict!

[wendalah]

However, I do think that there are some people out there, who have seen only the 3 clips of Wright, and are now ready to write Obama off completely.

Of course there are. I just don't think it's necessarily narrow-minded to be concerned about the Wright statements, nor do I believe you have to have done extensive research to legitimately reject them.

BTW, if someone is concerned about Hagee's stance on Catholics, that's fine too. I just said I didn't find that shocking. As a fiscal conservative I'm far more concerned about things like taxes, etc., than some minister blowing out a totally widespread sentiment about how the Pope is satanic. Some Catholics might be freaked out by that because they are more concerned with social issues. I imagine strong Obama supporters probably feel the same way about Wright.

[tandt]

So, tandt, you are saying that you are voting for McCain because of Obama's relationship with Rev. Wright? Do you maybe tend to vote Republican/support Republican candidates already?

I thought you were republican, tandt? So wouldn't it be safe to say that you likely would not have voted for Obama or Clinton anyway?

These are very fair questions, and yes, I have traditionally voted Republican. But, my preferred candidate is no longer in the race, so I made a personal decision, unlike previous years, to truly look at who the BEST candidate for my views is. With that said, I think I've been pretty fair, especially since I think it's amazing that we might just have the first AA or female president-- I would love a country with that possibility. But, Obama/Clinton are not the candidates to get my vote.

Believe it or not, you can be a Republican and not necessarily vote for a Republican candidate.

Couldn't have said it better-- I'm going outside of my comfort zones with this election and feel really good about the choice of the 3 I have. But, would have voted for O/C if that was the right thing for me.

What you are surmising is that every.single.Sunday. Rev. Wright says "US of KKK-A" Do you honestly believe that Rev. Wright said something like this every week? If so, where are the tapes?

No, of course I'm not saying that (and I was just joking about him sleeping in church-- I assumed a political leader would not be-- just my DH!). But, Obama has done an excellent job of getting people to talk about differences and acceptance in this country-- in an effective way. But, I find it hard to believe, and only after hearing the sirmons, that those are isolated instances. The words he used and the passion he spoke with really said volumes to me-- that certainly isn't the only, but is a big portion of why Obama isn't getting support from me.

I think tandt is fiscally conservative - thus I think it unlikely that she'd vote for a democrat in the first place. There's nothing wrong with that - but fronting as though you would have and then using the Wright thing to say 'not anymore!' seems like you weren't really considering it in the first place seriously.

I can see where you would think this and I hope my words earlier in this post will help you understand how I have approached this election.

And, I have to say, I'm such a lurker 'round here, I can't believe that you ladies would remember that I typically vote Republican!

[phoenics]

Of course there are. I just don't think it's necessarily narrow-minded to be concerned about the Wright statements, nor do I believe you have to have done extensive research to legitimately reject them.



I don't think it's narrow-minded to be concerned by them - just that it's narrow-minded to make a judgement on them out of context. But I'm probably still smarting from that row with my mom - literally this morning - on this issue. I was really hurt (this is my mom and I'm not used to disagreeing with her on stuff like this) that she didn't even want to hear the comments in context. She was perfectly willing to take what she'd heard and run with it.

[tandt]

She refuses to look at the Wright comments in context....

This is NOT a snarky question, but please help me understand what context you feel the comments were made. I would assume we're talking about the sirmons.

[nylons73]

LOL tandt ! This had me rolling (and I was just joking about him sleeping in church-- I assumed a political leader would not be-- just my DH!). My DH seriously almost fell asleep during the Easter sermon yesterday! :p

Since you seem willing to look outside of your party, I do hope that if Obama becomes the dem. nominee that you give him another look. (Wright notwithstanding.) I respect your choice to vote for McCain, but if Wright is what has you firmly off the 'O-Train' (hee hee) I hope that perhaps, with time, you might reconsider.

[tandt]

My DH seriously almost fell asleep during the Easter sermon yesterday! :p

We MUST be married to the same man! My DH was 'resting' his eyes yesterday while we were waiting on Mass to start at 8am. :)

[imagirliegirl]

We ALL got ingrained with the same racial stereotyping messages, black white - it doesn't matter.

Absolutely.


Any white person (whether they are someone's grandmother or not) who can confidently claim that they would walk down the street in a major city and not feel some 'discomfort' at being completely surrounded by African-Americans (strangers) is probably overestimating their level of comfort with those who do not look like themselves.

I completely agree with this comment. Personally, I am uncomfortable around people I don't know in general, but I will admit that I was raised to be more afraid of black people. I think associating "blackness" with fear is a more common attitude than we might be willing to admit exists in our society. Fortunately for me, I distrust all people equally, and I realize that my mother was a complete racist moron, so I don't feel an extra burden as an adult, if that makes sense. I don't feel like I have this extra fear of "different" people that I need to overcome.

Anyway, as for Obama's comment, my only problem with it (if you could call it that) is the use of the word "typical". I think you just have to be careful when attributing something to a group as typical.

[nylons73]

This is NOT a snarky question, but please help me understand what context you feel the comments were made. I would assume we're talking about the sirmons.

I don't want to speak for her, but I will say that (for instance) the "9/11" sermon was a long sermon that started out talking about what a white govt. official (do you know his name Phoenics?) had said that week in talking about the 'causes' of 9/11. Wright's sermon was a long drawn-out take on this other man's statements about how Islamic resentment of the US was built up over time, etc. The Sermon is such that when you get to the mention of the US 'bombing the Palestinians and other children' and the whole 'chickens' comment, it is in direct answer to what this other man had said in the first place. The sermon, therefore, makes much more sense when you listen to the entire text, than when you just see the dashiki-clad Wright yelling "We bombed the Palestinians."

Ok, now I have to go look up this other man's name because it's bothering me that I can't think of who it was!

Ok - here it is! He was actually quoting Edward Peck, former U.S. Ambassador to Iraq and deputy director of President Reagan’s terrorism task force, who was speaking on FOX News. That’s what he told the congregation.

Wright was quoting Peck as saying that America’s foreign policy has put the nation in peril. Link: http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2008/03/21/the-full-story-behind-rev-jeremiah-wrights-911-sermon/

I'm not saying that if you listen to the entire 50+ minute sermon from Wright (and major kudos to you if you do. Both of our DH's would likely have been asleep long before it ended ;)) you will stand up at the end and say HOORAY!!! (ha ha.) But, the entire sermon DOES put the 15 second snippet we have heard in greater context. It just adds some perpective as to what the point of his 'chickens' comment was. Peck gave him the idea by stating the same ideas first.

[phoenics]

Thanks for explaining tandt.

Your perspective on Wright and that controversy saddens me but it's still really informative.

I guess I find it so ironic that Obama has pretty much always been a unifier who has tried to bridge all of these gaps and ironically he's gotten painted into an extremist corner that really doesn't represent him. The black community typically doesn't have one leader to kind of lead - even MLK had Malcolm X around and they both disagreed with one another, but later Malcolm came around to MLK's way of thinking. Even back then, you had to have someone to hope and assert that we could change the debate and elevate the discussion, which is what MLK did. But now, you've got Wright and many other old school civil rights leaders who are angry at how our community has fallen apart and about all of the discrimination that so many face - thus sometimes they don't self-censure very well. yet, I really do think that Obama is trying to bridge that gap because the angry way just doesn't work.

Anyway - he's the guy who either gets called 'not black enough' for not being radical enough, or he's called 'too black' for not wanting to disown Wright or the black community or even his grandmother. Like I said, it's ironic that he's gotten painted into such an extreme corner when I don't think there is an extreme bone in his body.

I know I have a lot more personal connection to Obama's church than most people (I went to school with the current pastor and his wife was a classmate and a friend), so the views many people have developed about Trinity bother me because I know it's not true. I also know that Wright wasn't running around saying stuff like this alllllll the time, however the idea of a liberation theology is foreign to many (even though that's the kind of theology MLK subscribed to) so I guess it will take more time to really understand it.

Ftr, it's not about taking over the government or anything like that - it's more about uplifting a downtrodden black community and helping blacks take pride in themselves and basically lift themselves up and to start seeing themselves as equals rather than as inferior (as they have been taught by society's media and messages). It's kind of hard to get oppressed people to sing 'God Bless America' when they don't even feel like they are equal to other Americans. It's sort of a love-yourself first (but not at the expense of others) philosophy, with the idea that if you love yourself (Godly love, not selfish love), you'll be much better off AND so will society.

[phoenics]

This is NOT a snarky question, but please help me understand what context you feel the comments were made. I would assume we're talking about the sirmons.

I mean that she wouldn't even listen to the sermons in their entirety. She simply said she didn't care and that was that.

I honestly believe that you have to listen to Wright's whole sermon on the 'G-D america' soundbites and chickens, because that's when you realize that he was 1) quoting Ambassador Peck's words (about our policies, etc) after 9/11 happened and 2) that he wasn't telling God to d-mn America willy-nilly. He meant it as a statement of IF America (the government) continues to act as if she is supreme and as if she is God, that God would d-mn america. He also said that as long as America refused to treat all of its citizens as equal, that God should 'd-mn America'.

And yes it sounds fiery and I wish he'd said his point without the d-mn part in it, but he really did have some legitimate points. But of course they got lost in the fiery part at the end and that's the part that I found most egregious... and of course that he seemed to be implying that America hadn't made any progress. But if you're poor and black and you've been utterly defeated by racism and discrimination, I think it's possible that the progress still isn't enough.

I posted links to the whole sermon in the Obama 08 - Yes we Can thread.

My most major objections to what has happened with WRight is that he's been painted as anti-American - as if you can't criticize the country's policies and such without being labeled unpatriotic or anti-American.

ETA: Oh - nylons, we must have posted at the same time. You can speak for me anytime, lol.

[phoenics]

We MUST be married to the same man! My DH was 'resting' his eyes yesterday while we were waiting on Mass to start at 8am. :)

You're married to my dad?!?!

LOL - he falls asleep in EVERY sermon and claims he's just resting his eyes!

Who came up with that as the universal excuse for falling asleep in church?! :p

[wendalah]

Anyway - he's the guy who either gets called 'not black enough' for not being radical enough, or he's called 'too black' for not wanting to disown Wright or the black community or even his grandmother.

Honestly, this doesn't surprise me and I would bet it doesn't surprise him either. It seems to be a common issue for AAs in the public eye. Given that he's primed to be the first black president...it's kind of to be expected, even if it is frustrating.

[tandt]

Ftr, it's not about taking over the government or anything like that - it's more about uplifting a downtrodden black community and helping blacks take pride in themselves and basically lift themselves up and to start seeing themselves as equals rather than as inferior (as they have been taught by society's media and messages). It's kind of hard to get oppressed people to sing 'God Bless America' when they don't even feel like they are equal to other Americans. It's sort of a love-yourself first (but not at the expense of others) philosophy, with the idea that if you love yourself (Godly love, not selfish love), you'll be much better off AND so will society.

I will never try to say that I understand completely what you mean-- I grew up white in the deeeep south.

You're making an excellent point that I hope I can reiterate here somewhat intelligently. I want the black community to uplift themselves and see themselves equal.

Change starts with each of us individually. If you don't feel you're equal, people won't treat you equally and if you can't move on from something, you don't let others either. It's the same philosophy, whether it's at work, in your circle of friends, with your family or as a nation.

[moderngal]

I'm really stuck if Obama doesn't get the nod.
There's always Nader. ;)

[phoenics]

I will never try to say that I understand completely what you mean-- I grew up white in the deeeep south.

You're making an excellent point that I hope I can reiterate here somewhat intelligently. I want the black community to uplift themselves and see themselves equal.

Change starts with each of us individually. If you don't feel you're equal, people won't treat you equally and if you can't move on from something, you don't let others either. It's the same philosophy, whether it's at work, in your circle of friends, with your family or as a nation.

That's true. However I do want to say (as I grew up in the deep south too) that sometimes black people aren't just 'making discrimination' up... sometimes it really is real - many times it is real.

I do believe that change starts with each of us individually - however, not talking about our issues usually ends up breeding resentment. You have blacks who are afraid to talk openly about how they've been discriminated against because they fear that they'll be labeled a trouble-maker, etc.. and you have whites who don't want to talk about discrimination because they fear they'll say the wrong thing and be labeled racist. It's going to take a lot of compassion and discussion to get through all of that though...

The major obstacles I see to it right now are anger (which turns people off) and then some wanting to kind of ignore that racism still exists (whether out of guilt or frustration, I don't know). So the cycle just continues.

Obama is the first politician I have ever heard to take the issue straight on and he even made me sit up and listen as he explained in ways I had tried to explain (even to myself) about resentment on all sides and how it builds up and also about the racial stalemate we are currently at.

[Red'sGirl]

Not condoning this, but as a Catholic I'm not horribly shocked by this. It's a fairly mainstream evangelical Christian viewpoint.

Conversely, Rev. Wright's railings against White America is not uncommon on occasion from many black churches (or, as Obama points out, barber shops and kitchen tables). It's not revolutionary, they're just railings.

I've said it before, but I've heard my minister say things against gays and certain life situations that I do not agree with in any form. If he said them every week, or made his ministry ABOUT that, I wouldn't go. But, I go to a great church, with a Bishop that I like and like to listen to, and that does amazing good in the community and the world. I'm not leaving because I didn't like three speeches in my 18 years of attendence. Heck, I've heard teachers say things that I 1) don't agree with, or 2) can absolutely find fault with, but I still had to go to school. Sometimes, even teachers don't keep up with the times.

So I hope people won't throw the whole candidate out by the speech another person made. I'd hate to be judged by the rantings of my 93 yrs old GMIL, which are often just crazy, but given her age, no one has the right to tell her she can't say them. And we have yet to leave the dinner table when she does (the food is always good). If I agree with her, take me to task. But if my cousin calls to say what she said, we're not going to call her up and berate her over it. I'm going to start calling this the "Crazy Uncle Defense". We all have a crazy uncle in our family that, whether it's a few beers in, or the Steelers just lost, whatever the reason, can get on a rant that makes everyone roll their eyes. It's the world we live in and the country that we love that makes that speech, crazy as it is, every citizen's right to say.

[tandt]

There's always Nader. ;)

I must have lied earlier saying I've looked at each candidate. Maybe McCain won't be getting my vote! ;)

[msnicolea]

And, I have to say, I'm such a lurker 'round here, I can't believe that you ladies would remember that I typically vote Republican!

I keep a list with me at all times ;)

[cosmic]

Speaking of the North/South thing, I believe it was Molly Ivins who said something like:

"I believe all Southern liberals come from the same starting point -- race. Once you figure out they are lying to you about race, you start to question everything."

[tandt]

I spoke to DH about this topic last night, and I thought a lot about it.

Where can I find written transcripts of these sermons?

I've seen the video and have based my opinions on it, but I would like to actually see the words to REALLY soak it in.

Just to make sure I'm doing my due diligence. ;)

[nylons73]

tandt - I think Phoenics might be able to hook you up. Lemme see what I can find, but I know that Phoenics posted links to some of the entire sermons in the Obama thread here (might be the old one or the new one.)

Ok - that was a rambling reply and didn't really even mention the transcripts did it? heh. :p Off to see if I can find what you're looking for. .......

ETA: Here is Phoenics' post from a few days ago. It's not the transcript but a portion of the 35-40 minute sermons on both "Chickens" and G.D. America. Each video is approx. 10 minutes of the sermon. I will keep trying to find the entire written transcript but noone really seems to have it. (Maybe they fell alseep while trying to transcribe! heh ;) )

I know this is slightly dead - but this is Wright's entire speech about 9/11. Apparently a white Ambassador in speaking about 9/11 first made the comment referring to Malcolm X's 'chickens' response.

The entire sermon is about what our response should have been... and the idea that violence only begets more violence.

I think this whole thing has been blown so far out of proportion that it's really sad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOdlnzkeoyQ

and the other one in full context:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvMbe...eature=related

Both sermons are still pretty harsh on American policy of the past, but I do think that they show where Wright was coming from. I think the clips give the 10 minute or more background on why he is angry (in these instances.)

[nylons73]

X-posted from the
Obama Thread.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Obama girl is back!

This video is all about "Hillary Please Stop the Attacks!" It's pretty hilarious! There's even a sax solo from Bill Clinton (I'll let you see that for yourself!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axxooGIgOKs
__________________

[kendriln]

I couldn't find the entire transcript -- but here's a portion of the 9/11 sermon:

http://inspiredvoter.com/about/transcript-jeremiah-wright%E2%80%99s-911-sermon/

[tandt]

Thanks ladies for your replies, but I still can't find entire transcripts of these sermons that are in question.

Even the videos seem edited, so it's hard to really get the 'context' as everyone keeps talking about.

I want to see from the second he steps on the pulpit (or whatever he calls it) to the second he steps off-- that is the only fair way for me to re-evaluate.

I know I'm being picky, but it's the only way that I would feel comfortable second-guessing my first thoughts on the sermons. Maybe NOBODY wants the full sermons to get out there!

[nylons73]

Thanks ladies for your replies, but I still can't find entire transcripts of these sermons that are in question.

Even the videos seem edited, so it's hard to really get the 'context' as everyone keeps talking about.

I want to see from the second he steps on the pulpit (or whatever he calls it) to the second he steps off-- that is the only fair way for me to re-evaluate.

I know I'm being picky, but it's the only way that I would feel comfortable second-guessing my first thoughts on the sermons. Maybe NOBODY wants the full sermons to get out there!

I totally agree with you and I want the same thing! I would really like to see the sermons whole. I know that the church was selling the entire sermons (this is how the media got ahold of them) so they have GOT to be out there somewhere. I will keep looking and if I find them I'll let you know!

[tandt]

I know that the church was selling the entire sermons (this is how the media got ahold of them) so they have GOT to be out there somewhere.

Really? The church itself was selling these? Wow.

I have done google searches left-and-right with no success in finding the full videos/transcripts. Maybe I'm missing something....

There's something fishy here and I think I'll jump out of this pool and stick with my initial thoughts.

Party on! :)

[phoenics]

Really? The church itself was selling these? Wow.

I have done google searches left-and-right with no success in finding the full videos/transcripts. Maybe I'm missing something....

There's something fishy here and I think I'll jump out of this pool and stick with my initial thoughts.

Party on! :)

I'll see if I can't find full transcripts for you. It'd be nice to hear the entire sermon. But I can totally understand why the church would just remove the cds to avoid controversy. That whole church has been severely attacked and demonized because of this and I'm sure their mission isn't to serve political hunger, but spiritual hunger.

I thought I'd seen the whole transcript before, but that might have been for another sermon. I'll keep looking though.

I don't think Trinity is trying to 'hide' anything or do anything fishy. I think they are trying to preserve the mission of their church - which honestly isn't about feeding this giant political beast. The sermons are for spiritual edification, so I can understand their reticence to give the sermons to people who have no interest in that - only in some political end. It's a sad state of affairs when it's come down to this... BUT I do think that you're being honest in just wanting to see the whole thing, and I don't think they are hiding anything, so I'll keep looking and reach out to friends of mine in Chicago to see if I can find it.

ETA: Most churches sell their sermons (mostly it's that you pay shipping). My church has copies of the sermon available to give away at the end of the service and they sell them too - but it's just to cover shipping. This is NOT an uncommon thing in most churches that want to spread the Word far and wide. It's not 'selling' to make a profit, just to be clear, since the tone of your surprise seemed a bit - I don't know, like everything you hear about the church is already being filtered through a slightly biased lens.

[Adaya]

Really? The church itself was selling these? Wow.



Is the surprise that they sold that particular sermon or just sermons in general? Most churches, especially the larger ones, sell their sermons on cd and dvd. I have tons and tons of tapes, cds and dvds from my church and many others including Trinity. It's not to make a profit or any kind of gain, but to get the message out to those who may not attend or for those who do attend to have a record of it going forward. There are some sermons that I hear at my church and on tv that I want to have for a number of reasons, so I buy the cd/dvd and listen to it whenever.

ETA: Oops phoenics, I see we x-posted.

[jennylou]

Really? The church itself was selling these? Wow.

I have done google searches left-and-right with no success in finding the full videos/transcripts. Maybe I'm missing something....

There's something fishy here and I think I'll jump out of this pool and stick with my initial thoughts.

Party on! :)

It's not unusual for large churches to tape their sermons (each and every one of them). All the churches I've attended sold them just enough to cover the cost of the tape (it's been a while since I've been to a big church, lol!) and a little extra for repairs/upgrades to the equipment. They were $2 at the church I attended in high school. They would also give them (for free) to all the nursery workers and Sunday school teachers who couldn't be in the service.

[Red'sGirl]

My church (West Angeles) also sells their sermons for all the aforementioned reasons - every. single. week. no matter what the subject.

I would only add that, the church would likely pull the CD's in order to stem the tide of negativity and unjust (IMO) scrutiny being thrown their way. But the edited down versions that the media outlets have released aren't due to the church trying to hide anything - but because the media has little use for the rest of the sermon. After all, it's about God and biblical teachings, for which they clearly have no use. So there's no conspiracy to suppress the sermon, and if the other part of the sermon so much as had a hint of anger or anti-anything, you can rest assured that the media would be printing it. The fact that they aren't means that it's fairly run-of-the-mill church stuff. :rolleyes:

I hope, tandt, that you will hold off on making your suspicions permanent.

[tandt]

Is the surprise that they sold that particular sermon or just sermons in general?

I meant this one, but I guess they're putting it out there is being honest-- nothing wrong with that!

It just seems SO over the top that, election aside, there's something more to the context, like you ladies keep saying.

Not just the rev and what he's saying has me concerned, but the fact that the congregation is SO into the message he's saying.

I promise that I will keep an open mind about it, but can only go with what's out there to base it on and it ain't looking good right now for a change of heart!

You ladies rock-- thanks so much for your input into this situation and helping me!

[nylons73]

Ok, here's the entire audio of the 9/11 sermon by Wright. It's about 4 articles down on this page under the heading "Listen to Wright's 9/11 Sermon"

I could listen and transcribe it for you....but you'll have to give me 24 hours at least! :D

http://www.rolandsmartin.com/blog/index.php

[phoenics]

I meant this one, but I guess they're putting it out there is being honest-- nothing wrong with that!

It just seems SO over the top that, election aside, there's something more to the context, like you ladies keep saying.

Not just the rev and what he's saying has me concerned, but the fact that the congregation is SO into the message he's saying.

I promise that I will keep an open mind about it, but can only go with what's out there to base it on and it ain't looking good right now for a change of heart!

You ladies rock-- thanks so much for your input into this situation and helping me!

I think this just speaks to the huge racial divide in this country. As a black woman none of that rhetoric is new to me, even coming from the pulpit. Southern churches - white and black, actually - use this kind of stuff as bread and butter - which is exactly why Huckabee came to its defense.

I think it's understandable that you'd be surprised at what goes on in black churches and that many blacks still feel disenfranchised and that their disenfranchisement feelings are wholly justified to them AND that they criticize this government on the regular - however I would hope that you wouldn't simply write those people off as anti-American or racist when they simply aren't.

I think it's common to marginalize what you don't understand, but part of the reason this racial divide exists is because minorities in general have been forced to 'keep quiet' except when they are in their own circles and churches for fear of being labeled. So then you have explosive ventings like this one expressed in the church. What I am so glad Obama spoke to and that he phrased it this way was that the white community has felt muzzled on racial issues too and that has bred resentment. Thus it's good that we're all talking about this - and it's clear that we need to talk some more.

The main point though is what have these people done in response to Wright's sermons over the years? Have they rioted or attempted some dramatic coup? Or have they simply spread the Gospel and helped their surrounding community and communities far and away? Fed the hungry? Clothed the poor?

I don't know if you're Christian or not, but I wouldn't judge Wright and the church simply based on the words. Words can be a window for the introspective person to examine his/her heart - but outsiders cannot know what a person's heart is - only God can. Thus, we have fruit to help us determine a person's works (as evidence of faith).

The main problem I have with people's characterization of Wright and the church is that they are taking a few snippets out of 20 years and using that to form opinions on. Many of the people doing the judging aren't even Christian, which means that even the biblical verses that Wright quotes would be lost on them anyway. It's just disturbing to see a church put in the position of trying to avoid persecution because of others scrutinizing it unfairly and unjustly simply for political gain.

[JustVita]

Even the videos seem edited, so it's hard to really get the 'context' as everyone keeps talking about.

I want to see from the second he steps on the pulpit (or whatever he calls it) to the second he steps off-- that is the only fair way for me to re-evaluate.

**I know it's hard to discern the tone of something written on a message board, so I just want to preface my statement to let you know it's not meant as snark.**

That said, you seem to have a very firm opinion of Rev. Wright and thus Obama and his membership at Trinity based only on a limited amount of information (a soundbite, if you will), but such a high standard to reevaluate. I certainly understand your being taken aback by what you've seen/heard, but I think it's only fair that your evaluation, to begin with, be based on as much information as possible, not just your re-evaluation, if that makes sense. As an analogy, it's kinda like assuming someone guilty until proven innocent as opposed to innocent until proven guilty.

Maybe as an African-American woman, I'm just didn't assume the worst and in fact, immediately felt there was probably more to the story. I certainly, like many, was taken aback at not only the words, but the tone, but also felt that maybe there was more to this than what was shown. I think it's sad how this whole thing has played out. Hopefully, some good will come of it all, but a man's entire work is being tarnished.

**I also wanted to add (not directed at you tandt), that while I think it unfortunate Obama used the word "typical", especially given he's running for President of the United States and thus needs to be much more careful in his choice of words, who hasn't used a word like typical or something similiar and not necessarily been referring to an entire group. I don't necessarily mean with regards to just race, but other groupings (typical mother, typical woman, typical man, etc.) as well. I think the implication (despite the actual definition), in most conversations, is most or many, but that's JMHO.

[jnettie]

I consider myself not racist in the least little bit. For a time, I actually worked for the Dean of the Congressional Black Caucus on Capitol Hill. However, I can't say that if I found myself, alone, on the street, with a cadre of young black youths gathered ahead of me, that I wouldn't at least have some sort of 'fear reaction.'

This reaction is not based on my 'harboring racial animosity.' But it is based on the ingrained information I have taken in that I ~should be~ scared of young black youths whom I don't know. I would try hard to overcome this fear, of course, but I am being completely honest here

ITA. I am an extremely liberal person. I have a very diverse group of close friends. I work in Flatbush - a primarily African American neighborhood in Brooklyn - so I'm very comfortable being around large groups of AA people. But just last night, as I passed a group young AA men, dressed in their finest gangsta duds, I found myself tightening up and rushing past based on this visual clue. It's a learned reaction that you aren't always aware you have.

Obama- The pastor/church thing is it for me. Either you are not telling the truth, or have been sleeping in church for the past 20 years to never have heard the sirmons that have now surfaced. I guess Obama *just happen* to be absent on the days where the KKK was mentioned. Uh, yeah.
I know the discusion is moving on, but I'd like to add that if I were judged by one of my ministers, I'd be screwed! The woman that was minister at my UU church, who is a close friend of my Dad, who married DH and I, is a wonderful, kind person with great spiritual advice...but has a tendency to be extremely outspoken. I've heard her on more than one occasion say things on purpose to incite people with a different view than hers. There'd be plenty of tapes, pictures, and video of her to be looped on Fox...and the worse kind...she's a liberal. ;)

I am not in the Obama fan club (I'm a Hillary girl, as most of you know by now ;) ), but I have to say he just can't win for loosing on this one. He's screwed no matter what he says. I think he's doing the best he can. He has to address all of this somehow.

The context of that quote is necessary. And Elizabeth Hasselback needs to STFU.-- I am not a violent person, but I really want to punch her in the next sometimes.

I'll hold her down.

[ysolde]

I don't know that I'm personally offended, because my tolerance for such things is pretty high, and besides that, the comment was just so silly as to be ridiculous. There is no such thing as a "typical white woman."

However, I agree it's inappropriate, because it is stereotypical, and I don't care what type of person you're talking about, going down that road never leads to anything good.


Yup.

[tandt]

That said, you seem to have a very firm opinion of Rev. Wright and thus Obama and his membership at Trinity based only on a limited amount of information (a soundbite, if you will), but such a high standard to reevaluate. ...... As an analogy, it's kinda like assuming someone guilty until proven innocent as opposed to innocent until proven guilty.

I know you're not being snarky, and neither am I (please trust me), but I don't think that's fair to say.

I tend to go with a gut or immediate feeling and I'm beginning to seek for more info and get outside of my comfort zone. I just don't think there's enough to keep me from going with my gut.

No worries, though, I'm sure just like damning info comes out, counter-info will too and I'll be open to it. I'm very proud of myself (tooting my own horn here) to being open to new sides and ideas. As a 35 year old woman, I feel it's the first time I haven't just 'followed' my upbringing and branching out to think for myself.

I think, in getting back to the topic of this thread, I'm ticked at the fact of being a woman and being stereotyped as 'typical.' I face this every single day at work in my boys-club company. We as women likely all face this discrimination and prejudice at some time or another.

[tandt]

So, I'm watching The View (I know how many of you LOVE this show! ;)), but they are actually talking about the discussions of race right now-- in a very kind and thoughtful way.

Whoopie is saying that people should be aware of how things said could be taken and Barbara actually said something very well (I can't even begin to paraphrase, but maybe someone can find a clip).

Basically, she quoted a song from South Pacific that talked about teaching children to accept others before it's too late (basically) and the discussion led to each of us focusing on who our children are exposed to-- from a teacher, or preacher (and she named a few others).

Then, it was SO cute-- Sherie was talking about some movie where one AA and one white little girls were talking. The little white girl asked the little AA girl if she licked her, would she taste like chocolate. They were talking about how innocent playing together is and that's the question that comes out.

I'm sure the less than 5 minute clip doesn't translate well here, but I thought it was pretty appropriate-- acceptance and how can we all move towards innocence again!

[ysolde]

Basically, she quoted a song from South Pacific that talked about teaching children to accept others before it's too late (basically) and the discussion led to each of us focusing on who our children are exposed to-- from a teacher, or preacher (and she named a few others).



I think it is from

You've Got To Be Carefully Taught


Cable:
You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!

[Delta]

At my Catholic church on the Sunday after 9/11 the priest took it as an opportunity to expound on the lack of outrage (compared to that which followed killing of these thousands of Americans) about the number of abortions in America everyday. Several people walked out of the church (including, interestingly, Mary Matalin) and he apologized for it the next week. This priest otherwise is awesome and his heart was in the right place and I'd never leave over something like that.

[tandt]

Yes, ysolde, that's it! Thanks so much for posting the song lyrics.

Very sad, huh?

This discussion has certainly made me think many different things in many different ways over the past few days.

[Red'sGirl]

And there in lies the beauty of CC and this thread. :D

[Niobe]

Southern churches - white and black, actually - use this kind of stuff as bread and butter - which is exactly why Huckabee came to its defense.
I think this is why I wasn't particularly shocked or appalled by Wright's statements. His style of preaching isn't that different from Southern ministers, of any race. And his actual message, well, I agree with it. His way of presenting it is obviously not coming across well to the general public, which is unfortunate, but I still don't think he's wrong in any way. I guess there was nothing for Obama to do but denounce the statements, politically it was necessary, but I'm really glad he didn't speak against Wright personally.
But just last night, as I passed a group young AA men, dressed in their finest gangsta duds, I found myself tightening up and rushing past based on this visual clue. It's a learned reaction that you aren't always aware you have.

I had the same reaction yesterday to a group of young men in gangsta duds. But they were white. :p That style of dress, fair or not, does tend to make me wary. Black, white, Asian, or Hispanic, it's really just about the style.

[nylons73]

Yes, ysolde, that's it! Thanks so much for posting the song lyrics.

Very sad, huh?

This discussion has certainly made me think many different things in many different ways over the past few days.

And tandt I think you should be applauded for this. Open-mindedness is where many people fall down on the tough issues, IMHO. They are so stuck in the 'way it's been' with them culturally that they refuse to consider any other point of view, option, etc.

Even if, after the election has run its course, and on the issues (war, economy, health care, etc.) you still choose to vote for John McCain, I think that the fact that you are willing to explore voting for others and that you are pushing back (in your own mind) about some of the information you might be hearing, is an important step in getting past 'entrenched ideas' and moving towards a more open society in general. See how important you are? heh heh ;)

But seriously, your ability to question outlets like Fox News which have been pushing "Barack is a Muslim! Barack is not a patriot because he doesn't wear his flag pin! Barack is endangering his children because he takes them to Trinity Church!" is admirable. Your willingness to do research and to seek out the answers to what is important to you, is something that everyone should aspire to. It sounds like you will probably make your ultimate decision on the issues and that's all anyone can ask.

I think a lot of people in this thread are pushing back against the 'hair-trigger' voters who will say things like "John McCain is too old! I can't vote for him." Or, Barack Obama said "typical white woman" I can't vote for him. Or, Hillary lied about her trip to Bosnia.....wait....oh yeah, I really can't vote for her. J/K!!! ;)

And, may I give a big shout-out to our girl Delta who is a leader in this thread, and, I am guessing, if you told her 4 years ago that in the Spring of 2008, she would be actively working to elect an African-American Democrat to the presidency of the United States, she might have told you you were dreaming! hee hee :)

[curlyjr]

I think the whole "typical white woman" thing was blown out of proportion. I don't think he was trying to offend anyone, he was just speaking the basic truth about the majority of women of that time. I think if he said it about women today, there is cause for offense, but back then, prejudice and racism were simply the norm. Ofcourse not all white women of that time were afraid of AA's, but a hell of a lot of them were.

[jnettie]

I had the same reaction yesterday to a group of young men in gangsta duds. But they were white. :p That style of dress, fair or not, does tend to make me wary. Black, white, Asian, or Hispanic, it's really just about the style.

LOL! I know what you mean.

Not to get too OT, but in my calmer moments I tend to sit back and people watch, observe what people wear and who they might be. I saw a kid the other day trying to wear his jeans all gangsta...but they were the tight jeans...and he kinda looked like Dick Van Dyke in penguin scene in "Mary Poppins"! The crotch of his jeans were practically at his knees but there wasn't any extra fabric to walk properly!

[Delta]

And, may I give a big shout-out to our girl Delta who is a leader in this thread, and, I am guessing, if you told her 4 years ago that in the Spring of 2008, she would be actively working to elect an African-American Democrat to the presidency of the United States, she might have told you you were dreaming! hee hee :)Whoah, whoah, whoah there. I appreciate very much that shout-out but let's not get ahead of ourselves. :D I think Obama is awesome in many ways but I can't say I'm actively working to get him elected. Let's just say I have no idea who I am going to vote for in November - it's honestly wide open in my mind though I certainly won't be campaigning against him.

Even still, I suppose, I never would have thought that would be the case 4 years ago. ;)

[Delta]

This is good reading for tandt or anyone else re Wright in context: http://chronicle.com/free/v54/i30/30b00101.htm

[cynder]

I am trying to follow this thread but I know someone here asked about the full text of Wright's 9/11 speech. (http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/03/the-wright-post.html). I got sick of seeing the edited clips and wanted to read from the source.