OK, this is dumb...the fauxbama thing

[miel]

Am I wrong? Does it really matter if the guy who plays Obama is not black if they can imitate Obama?

Did 'SNL' Go Beyond the Pale? (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/28/AR2008022803988.html)

I don't think the worry about minstrels or all that applies because this is someone imitating a particular person. A man can imitate a woman, a woman a man...What matters is if there is racist caricature. I don't see any.

I realize this isn't a big issue. I guess I just wondered if I am wrong or not.

(In academia there is actually revisionist history of minstrelsy of some kind but I don't know much about it.)

[Koala_Gurl]

I don't know off the top of my head, since it really isn't an issue to me...but has Maya Rudolph played any non-AA characters? I think it is a little over the top, IMO...but I really don't see race when it comes to SNL (shoot, I thought Fred Armisen was Hispanic...he does that character so well...I had no idea he was white & Asian.)

[ihearttx]

I don't know off the top of my head, since it really isn't an issue to me...but has Maya Rudolph played any non-AA characters? I think it is a little over the top, IMO...but I really don't see race when it comes to SNL (shoot, I thought Fred Armisen was Hispanic...he does that character so well...I had no idea he was white & Asian.)

One of the most famous characters Mya plays is Donatella Versace, actually. And she's not black!

I personally think it's a bit ridiculous especially considering Obama's mother is white.

[isign]

I find it ironic that we as a country are trying to end racism, but yet we nitpick things, looking for problems. I think if you tried hard enough, as shown by this article, you can find something negative in everything.

[cosmic]

Yeah, I don't have any strong feelings about it. And Maya Rudolph (who is Minnie Ripperton's daughter) is half Jewish, sooooo it could be seen as nitpicking. She's played Whitney Houston and lots of celebrities- black and white.

[young lioness]

I don't see an issue with who was playing Obama, aside from the fact that if (when) he is elected, they need to get someone who does a bit better impersonation. Fred Armisen didn't really capsure Obama for me the way Darrell Hammond capsures Bill Clinton and Will Farrel does GWB.

[Rose]

I don't see how it matters. SNL has people playing different types of people all the time.

Fred Armisen didn't really capsure Obama for me the way Darrell Hammond capsures Bill Clinton and Will Farrel does GWB.

I agree. DH does such a fabulous Clinton, and looking at the short clip of Fred I did think it could be better.

[Niobe]

Okay, Obama has one white parent and one black parent. So how is a white person portraying him less appropriate than a black person portraying him?

ETA: Just saw that Armisen is of white and Asian descent. Still don't see what the big deal is. Tom Hanks isn't gay, but he still won an Oscar for Philadelphia.

[phoenics]

I don't think it's nitpicking. If there were more roles for AAs in general in television and movies, you wouldn't see AA actors and activists squabbling over issues like this.

Let's face it, the media is a big deal. You'd be shocked at how many people come to this country thinking black people are exactly what is portrayed on television (thugs and ho's). You'd be surprised at how much influence the media actually has.

Okay, Obama has one white parent and one black parent. So how is a white person portraying him less appropriate than a black person portraying him?

ETA: Just saw that Armisen is of white and Asian descent. Still don't see what the big deal is. Tom Hanks isn't gay, but he still won an Oscar for Philadelphia.

Being gay isn't something that comes through (well, for the character Tom played) just in appearance. Being black IS! When you look at Obama, he's black. I'm his same skintone and I'm not biracial - when people look at me, they see a black woman. If I saw Obama walking down the street and didn't know who he was, I'd think - black man - maybe I'd think he has white in his background somewhere, but I wouldn't blink if it was his grandmother and not his mother. And in the end, I'd think black man! And usually in my experience, non-black people are pretty poor at discerning whether someone is biracial or not - black people (if we grow up surrounded by a lot of black people of all colors) are very GOOD at discerning this.

This part of the article sums up how I feel about how AAs are portrayed in general in Hollywood:

Todd Boyd, a professor of critical studies at the University of Southern California, says viewers might have a different reaction if the roles were reversed. What if, he says, "SNL" had cast a black woman to portray Hillary Clinton? "Do you think there's ever going to be a day when we start casting Queen Latifah to portray Princess Diana?" he asks. "We just don't have the same representations going in other direction.

When Rosario Dawson portrayed the wife of Alexander in the move Alexander, she had to deal with all kinds of people going nuts about it. There was even backlash against Wentworth Miller for his portrayal of a white man on Prison Break (Wentworth lists himself as an AA first on imdb.com).

When Eddie Murphy donned the 'white face' he did so to make a political statement. Even when the biracial woman from SNL portrayed a white woman, I am sure she had a deal with some backlash too.

I remember when there were rumors that Beyonce was going to play Lois Lane in the superman movie. You'd have thought it was Armageddon on a comic board I used to go to. I heard constant cries that Lois Lane was white. There were the arguments that Beyonce couldn't act (I argued that, lol), but it was really disturbing to me how many people simply objected because they believed Lois should only be portrayed by a white woman. That's because as comic characters go, you can't get too much more high profile than Lois Lane.

And you can't get too much more high profile than Barack Obama.

This in particular really gets to the heart of it:

"If we had as many examples of black actors playing white figures, no one would need to discuss it. But when you have a figure as historically important as Barack Obama . . . people can get mighty protective of his image."

As far as SNL goes, I didn't know that the man playing Obama was white. I didn't know that he had dark makeup on. I don't particularly have any issue with this per se, but I can see how to others it would raise some eyebrows. For the first time, we have an AA man (I don't care if he is biracial - he's perceived as a black man) who is a serious contender for the presidency and he gets portrayed by a white comedian.

It seems ironic.

Maybe some people see it as nitpicking. That's fine. I won't hang myself on it or go on a crusade - but since the question was asked, I answered.

I think the fear that some people have here is that a white man portraying a man like Obama has some element of racial mocking in it. You know, the whole blackface thing.

I don't think that's what's happening with SNL - but I really would have liked to have seen a black comedian portraying Obama. But if there's ever a serious movie about him, they HAVE to get that guy from the 5 Heartbeats. He was on 24 in the 6th season too - he looks so much like Obama... get him, get him!! LOL.

[miel]

I think the fear that some people have here is that a white man portraying a man like Obama has some element of racial mocking in it. You know, the whole blackface thing.

Yeah, that's what I was wondering. Does it have that? It can have that and people can't see it. For example I HATE HATE HATE HATE Seinfeld for its portrayal of Latinos. EFFING HATE IT. My husband can't even see it. It totally makes fun of Jews too and he is Jewish and I am not claiming it is racist even--although come to think of it, it kind of is. I'm not saying someone should have censored Seinfeld. But it irritates me no end. But then the funny thing is that my parents LOVE it! Maybe they didn't see the episode that sent me off. And maybe I was more irritated because I wasn't expecting it. I thought it was a kind of funny show for awhile.

That's not totally the same thing though.

I agree with you though. I think it would be better to find a black actor to play Obama...it seems kind of silly to have a white actor do it. And I don't think he's all that good, either.

[kendriln]

But if there's ever a serious movie about him, they HAVE to get that guy from the 5 Heartbeats. He was on 24 in the 6th season too - he looks so much like Obama... get him, get him!! LOL.

Dresser? LOL! In an interview I think with US, Obama said he wanted Will Smith to play him if there were to be a movie about his life, due to their ears! :D

[phoenics]

Dresser? LOL! In an interview I think with US, Obama said he wanted Will Smith to play him if there were to be a movie about his life, due to their ears! :D

Ack!! Noooooooooooooooo!

Okay - I'd accept Will Smith too - but this guy has big ears too!! Though, Obama is quite funny so Will could play that up nicely.

[msnicolea]

Although I think phoenics made some excellent points, I think most of the citicism is unwarranted. Men play women, Arab-Americans play Italians, Eddie Murphy and Dave Chapelle play white guys, Jesus, Will Farell played JANET RENO, for goodness sakes!

Yes, it's different for AA actors. But SNL is a comedy show built on parody and role playing--if they had Keenan, the only AA cast member, play Obama, that would have been silly--no way he could pull it off. And wouldn't that be worse--casting Keenan BECAUSE he's AA? I mean, Armisen is as much "Obama" as Keenan is, right?

And would it have to be a bi-racial actor to be truly genuine? I mean, Obama's as white as he is black, at least in terms of actual race. Yes, he's a person of color and experiences life through that lense--but we're talking about actors who play people different than themselves every day. Why isn't it just ok to be bi-racial anyway? Why does Halle Berry have to be referred to as AA when her mother is White? I find that a bit sad, confusing, and even dangerous.

I could list 50 examples of cross-racial or gender roles--some quite offensive. I was absolutely ok with this particular piece --and I expect Armisen will be the guy who plays him when he's our next President, which means the real battle will have been won!

[Rose]

I think the fear that some people have here is that a white man portraying a man like Obama has some element of racial mocking in it. You know, the whole blackface thing.


But if it's a man who is 1/2 asian playing a man who is 1/2 black it seems I don't know what the word is, not hypocritical but you're taking the 1/2 asian and calling him white and the 1/2 black man is seen as black. If they are both ethnic it's not exactly the same as a white person being painted as black. If that makes sense.

I am white though so if it is offensive to other races I can understand that as well. It's something I haven't experienced.

[phoenics]

I could list 50 examples of cross-racial or gender roles--some quite offensive. I was absolutely ok with this particular piece --and I expect Armisen will be the guy who plays him when he's our next President, which means the real battle will have been won!

Gosh I hope so.

[msnicolea]

And I really do expect your thoughts, phoenics--I just think the criticism is off base in this partiuclar circumstance.

[cosmic]

SNL is a comedy show built on parody and role playing--if they had Keenan, the only AA cast member, play Obama, that would have been silly--no way he could pull it off. And wouldn't that be worse--casting Keenan BECAUSE he's AA?

Yep. Absolutely. (I'm just glad they didn't make Maya do it! lol. I can see Lorne thinking that would be funny and avant-garde.)
I can see both sides. This particular issue was blown out of proportion. But it also shows the shortcomings of having a not-so-diverse troupe that is supposed to be portraying a diverse culture. Point is, if they end up having to make fun of Obama for 4 years, they need to put out a casting call.

[ihearttx]

As anyone who is an avid SNL fan, they are always making fun of the "black one" on the show..about how they never get in skits etc. It has been a long running joke for a long time...

But regardless, how is this any different than Billy Crystal playing Sammy Davis Jr?

[meganth]

My problem isn't Fred Armisen being a "white" guy playing Obama. My problem is Armisen playing Obama. He doesn't do a very good job!

I don't think they've finished their search for the right Obama though. I was reading that when Obama wins the Dems race they're going to cast a new member strickly for Obama.

[jnettie]

From a casting POV, I think the more proper choice would be to cast someone who is at least bi-racial AA. For example, the college I work at (I work in the Theater Dept) is doing a play right now where the main character is 1/2 black 1/2 white, and we cast an AA actor. IMO, that's the appropriate choice. I'm all for color-blind casting, unless it actually matters to the character. I am not a fan of using theatrical makeup to make white people other ethnicities. This still happens all the time in theater with Asians - instead of casting an Asian actor, they put makeup on a white person, and it is always always always racist, even if not meant that way.

And just because SNL did it before doesn't suddenly make this time ok. Honestly, I don't think they did anything with bad intent. I think they looked at their cast and decided that Fred Armisen did the best impression. Perhaps SNL needs to have auditions for more actors of varying ethnicities if they only have one AA actor in their cast and then had to choose a non AA to do an AA role.

[ihearttx]

So did anyone watch SNL last night?

[Adaya]

I But if there's ever a serious movie about him, they HAVE to get that guy from the 5 Heartbeats. He was on 24 in the 6th season too - he looks so much like Obama... get him, get him!! LOL.

Are you talking about Harry Lennix....."Dresser"? Yes, he would be the perfect actor to play Obama. Even their voices are similar. I met him on Broadway after a show he did and got a picture. I'll have to post it if I can find it. Such a nice guy and a cutie too.

[kendriln]

So did anyone watch SNL last night?

I did watch -- I think if Obama wins the democratic nomination SNL is going to have to do a casting call. I thought Fred was terrible last night!

[kendriln]

Harry "Dresser" Lennix/Obama -- I think Obama is still going to want Will Smith (;)) but this would be a good choice.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i84/lnkendrick/547521.jpg?t=1204473459

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i84/lnkendrick/ObamaBarack.jpg?t=1204473511

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i84/lnkendrick/harry.jpg?t=1204473569

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i84/lnkendrick/buar01_obama.jpg?t=1204473611

[Niobe]

I'm all for color-blind casting, unless it actually matters to the character. I am not a fan of using theatrical makeup to make white people other ethnicities. This still happens all the time in theater with Asians - instead of casting an Asian actor, they put makeup on a white person, and it is always always always racist, even if not meant that way.

Having done years of theater myself, I find this attitude interesting. I did the sets for a production of Teahouse of the August Moon in a small Texas college that didn't have enough people of Japanese descent in the entire area to fill the cast for that play. Not a single person of any Asian decent, Japanese or otherwise, showed up for auditions. So, by your logic, we were being racist by doing the play at all?

Or how about our production of West Side Story, where we cast the actors with the most talent, and ended up with a Hispanic Tony and a white Maria, as it happened. We had African Americans playing Sharks and Jets. Should we have shown racial bias in our casting, and given the roles to the people of "correct" race, regardless of ability?

I think it would have been far worse of SNL to insist on the AA cast member playing Obama, simply because he is closer to being the correct racial heritage, when there was someone with a better ability to do the job.

[miel]

Kendriln

Hmmm, that third picture...I think he could do Obama.

Will Smith? No...

[kendriln]

I agree Harry Lennix is a great choice -- Will Smith was just a reference to an interview Obama did where he said he wanted Smith to portray him ;)

[msnicolea]

SNL works with what they have--I don' tthink they have ever hired somoene just to do a particular character, so either Armisen's going to improve, or the other guys will have to start throwing their hats into the ring.

ITA, btw, that SNL should have a more diverse cast--no question about that! And now my girl maya is gone--so bummed.

Where was all this concern (not here on CC, just in general) when Fran Caliendo was doing his Charles Barkley all over the place, btw?

And although I understand the historical implications in using makeup to portray someone of a diferent race/ethnicity, today, when done tastefully, it seems no different to me than costumes, in some ways, if I were looking at the issue purely objectively. Was it wrong of Angelina Jolie to darken her skin to play Marianne Pearl--she even had Pear's permission.

I have mixed feelings.

[jnettie]

Having done years of theater myself, I find this attitude interesting. I did the sets for a production of Teahouse of the August Moon in a small Texas college that didn't have enough people of Japanese descent in the entire area to fill the cast for that play. Not a single person of any Asian decent, Japanese or otherwise, showed up for auditions. So, by your logic, we were being racist by doing the play at all?

I think they should have chosen a play that didn't rely on race. If you know you don't have the right people to fill the roll, don't choose that play.

See, I don't think anyone who does this now actually realizes they are being racist. And, to be honest, it doesn't always come off that way. And it certainly depends on many many factors. Like, do you really need an all Asian cast to do "The Mikado"? I don't know. But I know that when I was watching a production of "Happy End" (a musical by Kurt Weill and Bertolt Brecht written in the 1930s), and on walked an actor playing a Japanese character, I was really glad my DH wasn't with me, because I know how he feels about this as an Asian person. And I know the people in this theater company so I know they didn't think anything more than "oh, we can't find an Asian actor so we'll have to make up a white guy." But I think that's the problem...everyone is so willing just to brush it off.

I think, in general, the entertainment industry is rather open, but I think because we all pat ourselves on the back about how progressive/open/liberal we all are, we don't see the obvious sometimes.

I also think this is such a big deal because we just don't see non-AA actors playing AA parts at all anymore. It really is an established taboo.

[meganth]

SNL works with what they have--I don' tthink they have ever hired somoene just to do a particular character, so either Armisen's going to improve, or the other guys will have to start throwing their hats into the ring.

I guess they really were auditioning for a new cast memeber just to play Obama:
Here's what we know: They auditioned Mad TV's Jordan Peele, 30 Rock writer Donald Glover, and comedian Jordan Carlos, best known as "Stephen Colbert's Black Friend." Internally, as mentioned Thompson is the only cast member of color; though Fred Armisen has played a diverse range of cast members in the past (cf. Mahmoud Ahmedinejad). Darrell Hammond has played Jesse Jackson in the past, with no complaint; perhaps his heir to the SNL impressionist throne, Bil Hader, will suit up in slightly darkened makeup as well. If it IS someone from the inside, and not an actor of color, expect a furious debate this week on the should's and shouldn'ts of casting the first black candidate for President of the United States with a non-African American actor. Either way, it all comes down to tonight :The decision was final by end of day Thursday, and no one is talking.

Source (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/23/whobama-snl-returns-toni_n_87926.html)

I read it a few other places a few weeks ago, but that was the only source i could find now.

I guess the only place i may call foul with SNL regarding this is that they knew of Barack Obama before the start of this season (i mean the first start of this season, back in September.) So they do all their casting before September, did it not occur to them then that they may need an Obama?

[LaughAtlantis]

I guess the only place i may call foul with SNL regarding this is that they knew of Barack Obama before the start of this season (i mean the first start of this season, back in September.) So they do all their casting before September, did it not occur to them then that they may need an Obama?

Well, one could argue two points with regard to this. One, nobody had any idea just how impactful a presence Barack was going be in this presidential race. Back in September, Hillary was the heir apparent. Everyone else was an also-ran, before the race had even begun. Two, despite the fact that it was several months away, they knew back in September that the writers' strike was down the road. Why hire a black actor to do one role that might be in one sketch a week, and then be on strike for who-knows-how-long?

Should Barack Obama become the Democratic presidential nominee, I think they will hire a black actor to do the job. Should he become the president, they definitely will. But keep in mind, politicians on SNL wind up being played by many people over the course of several years in office. George W. Bush has been played by at least four different actors that I can think of, maybe more (Will Ferrell, Chris Parnell, Will Forte, Jason Sudeikis) Ross Perot was played by both Dana Carvey and Cheri Oteri. They mix things up there. Don't expect that just because Fred Armisen is playing Barack Obama for two weeks that he has a job for the next four years (fingers crossed on election results, of course). They'll find a black actor to do the role.

Meanwhile, somewhere Tim Meadows is cursing his timing. Nine years on the show and nobody remotely like Obama for him to play. You think they would hire him back?

[cosmic]

I think, in general, the entertainment industry is rather open, but I think because we all pat ourselves on the back about how progressive/open/liberal we all are, we don't see the obvious sometimes.


I think that's a very good way of putting it.

[Niobe]

I think, in general, the entertainment industry is rather open, but I think because we all pat ourselves on the back about how progressive/open/liberal we all are, we don't see the obvious sometimes.

I'll admit to having been totally oblivious to racial conflicts/issues before ("nappy" for instance). Which is odd, since I'm of mixed racial decent myself. I still don't really see the problem of casting without racial bias - acting is acting. So the only thing an actor can't pretend to be is another race?

[heather 8^)]

Should we have shown racial bias in our casting, and given the roles to the people of "correct" race, regardless of ability? Agreed. I think it's ridiculous to think that AA men can only be imitated by AA men, or women can only be played by women, or disabled people can only be portrayed by disable actors, and I imagine actors would rather know they were hired based on ability rather than the casting director's attempt to avoid the perception of discrimination based on race, gender, or physical ability.

Once I become super rich and famous (any day now ;)), if SNL has a half-Vietnamese/half-Cherokee male actor portraying my blond/blue-eyed self, more power to him! My DH is Hispanic but looks Indian, so who should portray him? (Think the casting director will agree with my recommendation of the very talented and yummy Taye Diggs?) :D

[jennylou]

If I saw Obama walking down the street and didn't know who he was, I'd think - black man - maybe I'd think he has white in his background somewhere, but I wouldn't blink if it was his grandmother and not his mother. And in the end, I'd think black man! And usually in my experience, non-black people are pretty poor at discerning whether someone is biracial or not - black people (if we grow up surrounded by a lot of black people of all colors) are very GOOD at discerning this.



Hmmmm, I don't think I would give a second thought (or a first) to his skin color, I'd be thinking what a good looking man (with an awesome smile) he was.

[Koala_Gurl]

I think they should have chosen a play that didn't rely on race. If you know you don't have the right people to fill the roll, don't choose that play.

See, I don't think anyone who does this now actually realizes they are being racist. And, to be honest, it doesn't always come off that way. And it certainly depends on many many factors. Like, do you really need an all Asian cast to do "The Mikado"? I don't know. But I know that when I was watching a production of "Happy End" (a musical by Kurt Weill and Bertolt Brecht written in the 1930s), and on walked an actor playing a Japanese character, I was really glad my DH wasn't with me, because I know how he feels about this as an Asian person. And I know the people in this theater company so I know they didn't think anything more than "oh, we can't find an Asian actor so we'll have to make up a white guy." But I think that's the problem...everyone is so willing just to brush it off.

I think, in general, the entertainment industry is rather open, but I think because we all pat ourselves on the back about how progressive/open/liberal we all are, we don't see the obvious sometimes.

I also think this is such a big deal because we just don't see non-AA actors playing AA parts at all anymore. It really is an established taboo.

I guess I am naive, but I would think that NOT doing a play because you can't cast actors of the exact race is racist and discriminatory. I think intent has to be a part of the definition of racism. I don't think there is any intentional harm or disrespect by having a white actor play an Asian, Hispanic, etc. or vice versa.

To me there is a huge difference between intentionally being racist and merely noting a difference. Why must one assume that to note a difference is always done in a negative manner.

[phoenics]

Harry "Dresser" Lennix/Obama -- I think Obama is still going to want Will Smith (;)) but this would be a good choice.



I told ya!! I told ya!! Look at that resemblance! Swoon!

[phoenics]

I'll admit to having been totally oblivious to racial conflicts/issues before ("nappy" for instance). Which is odd, since I'm of mixed racial decent myself. I still don't really see the problem of casting without racial bias - acting is acting. So the only thing an actor can't pretend to be is another race?

In a perfect, ideal world - yes. But we don't live in a perfect ideal world. I think that when ethnic actors play white roles and have more than a token existence in mainstream movies and media, THEN we can really honestly think about letting anyone of any race play that of another (think about Charlie's Angels - 2 white girls and ONE asian girl... think of commercials where they have 3 women - 2 are always white and the other is a minority - I'm so sick of seeing that).

The problem is that you have white actors (or actors who pass for white) playing every role with near impunity and the minority actors are left with the token parts. So to ask if it's okay for a white actor (I couldn't tell that he was also of Asian descent) to play roles that black actors would kill for because it's not like they get many opportunities to play ANYTHING just seems wrong. It's like political correctness - but only if it benefits white people (in general).

Hollywood's main issue is that it is stuck in token-ism, and that just creates huge demand from minority actors to play the roles that they feel entitled to (re: minority parts - people of their same ethnic orgin). Like I said before, if there were more roles open to AAs and other minorities, they wouldn't have to clamor for scraps like this.

Consider the tv show Lipstick Jungle. When I saw that Lyndsay Price had been cast in the role, part of me was happy because I love her as an actress. The other part of me was pissed because Cashmere Mafia has Lucy Liu and I felt like AA women had been basically shut out of that game on both shows. Funny that I didn't think - well, why couldn't an AA woman have played one of the OTHER parts? You know, the ones 'reserved' for the white actresses?

Because Hollywood has trained even me to look at casts as 'generally white' with one token space left open for a minority. And usually the minority to get shafted and left out is the AA one.

Gray's Anatomy breaks this cycle largely (imo) because the creator is a black woman.

Now - there is one movie for Cinderella that I ADORED.... the one with Brandy and Whitney Houston and Paolo something-or-other... Whoopi Goldberg was in it too and so was Bernadette Peters... anyway, it was a multi-racial cast - but it was SO multi-racial that you were forced to forget about race so to speak... Whoopi Goldberg marrying that guy from Titanic would not produce the Prince that they did and so on and so forth. Everything was mixed up until all you saw were the characters. I thought that was great - but it was largely because the main characters were not mostly white (which is usually the case).

[msnicolea]

Can we please talk for a moment about Amy Pohler's imitation of Hillary--cuz it sucks!

I agree with your last post, phoenics--there are far too few roles for minority actors, period!

[kedzieb]

I don't know. Maybe in general there needs to be more roles for AA actors (but I'd also add leading roles for women, older people, other races, etc.), but I don't see the reason to single out SNL. More than many shows out there, their actors for years have played back and forth when it comes to race, age, gender and ability.

Maya Rudolph played white, black, mediteranean & latino women. Amy Pohler played Michael Jackson & Dennis Kucinich, for crying out loud. I also remember Keenan joking last year that he wantedto lose weight so he'd get to play Barack. Doesn't look that happened!

I saw it this week and couldn't tell that Fred Armisen was wearing any makeup to look darker. Was he? He isn't very light skinned in general. My husband spent Thanksgiving with him a few years back & when I asked him he said he couldn't have guessed his race. But he was damn funny.

I think it would be more insulting racially if they hired someone solely to portray Barack. Who ever they get might look more like him, but the point isn't verisimilitude on the show, it's comedy. If they based their casting on who looks like real people we'd never have the hilarious Church Lady.

[Rose]

The problem is that you have white actors (or actors who pass for white) playing every role with near impunity and the minority actors are left with the token parts. So to ask if it's okay for a white actor (I couldn't tell that he was also of Asian descent) to play roles that black actors would kill for because it's not like they get many opportunities to play ANYTHING just seems wrong. It's like political correctness - but only if it benefits white people (in general).


Is Fred Armisen even 1/2 white? Googling, it looks like he is half hispanic and half asian. I understand what point you are still trying to make though.

[PG-rated]

I would understand this if I had ever heard even one complaint about Darrell Hammond playing Jesse Jackson (which he's done a number of times over the years). But I haven't.

[maxandmolly]

I would understand this if I had ever heard even one complaint about Darrell Hammond playing Jesse Jackson (which he's done a number of times over the years). But I haven't.
Agreed. Why is it a big deal only now that it looks like whoever gets the role may hit the 4-year lottery? Dana Carvey's career was MADE when he started playing GW. Darrell Hammond did wonderfully as Bill Clinton. And Will Ferrell had quite a run as GWB, even if he left before the end of the term. I'd think, being hired only because you're AA, and they need an AA actor to fill X role, would be damn insulting.

[Niobe]

In a perfect, ideal world - yes. But we don't live in a perfect ideal world. I think that when ethnic actors play white roles and have more than a token existence in mainstream movies and media, THEN we can really honestly think about letting anyone of any race play that of another (think about Charlie's Angels - 2 white girls and ONE asian girl... think of commercials where they have 3 women - 2 are always white and the other is a minority - I'm so sick of seeing that).

The problem is that you have white actors (or actors who pass for white) playing every role with near impunity and the minority actors are left with the token parts. So to ask if it's okay for a white actor (I couldn't tell that he was also of Asian descent) to play roles that black actors would kill for because it's not like they get many opportunities to play ANYTHING just seems wrong. It's like political correctness - but only if it benefits white people (in general).


With regards to Charlie's Angels, Cameron Diaz is Hispanic. A pale Hispanic, yes, but she is Hispanic. And actually, checking further, Armisen is of Asian, Hispanic, and German descent. So he's not really very "white" at all. So, is it about heritage, or just appearances? Shouldn't we stop labeling people based solely on appearance anyway? I always thought that heritage was the important part, the part that should be celebrated - your culture. The physical aspect seems like the part we are trying to STOP focusing on so much.

And I think in recent years Hollywood has made strides in having various ethnicities playing mainstream, formerly "white" roles - look at all the crap romantic comedies Jennifer Lopez has made. And I don't think I, Robot or I am Legend's original stories had African-American main characters.

[phoenics]

First off, I want to reiterate that I don't really have an issue with Armisen playing Obama. I'm just suggesting ways that other people who were bothered may have looked at.

I always thought that heritage was the important part, the part that should be celebrated - your culture. The physical aspect seems like the part we are trying to STOP focusing on so much.

Okay great. As long as we get a nice show of faith that it goes both ways. How about we cast a bunch of AAs and other minorities to play 80% of the roles out there?

With regards to Charlie's Angels, Cameron Diaz is Hispanic. A pale Hispanic, yes, but she is Hispanic.

The woman reads as white, so as 'tokens' go, she's a pretty weak one. It's like Prison Break claiming they're diverse by naming Wentworth Miller as being their effort to diversify their cast - when he looks white and everything he does on the show is with white people - his romantic leads are white, his family on the show is white... same thing with Cameron Diaz. She reads as white and did not have to face the same hurdles that Jennifer Lopez did. It's pretty well known in the hispanic community and the black community that the more 'white' you look, the easier you tend to have it in America.

J-Lo didn't really get to mega-star status until she lost half of her behind, lost P. Diddy and went 'blonde' for a time. She's moved back to her more natural self lately, but to get to star movie status, she 'whitened' herself up.


And actually, checking further, Armisen is of Asian, Hispanic, and German descent. So he's not really very "white" at all.

None of that means black. Typically AAs experience racism in this country that other minorities don't. We're considered at the bottom of the totem pole, so trying the all races are inter-changeable notion doesn't really fly with me. That's what Hollywood is clearly doing now - where black women are being edged out of the token spot and that spot is being taken up by other minorities that are more 'palatable' or 'exotic'.


So, is it about heritage, or just appearances? Shouldn't we stop labeling people based solely on appearance anyway?

I kind of feel like the 'why should race matter?' questions are kind of like this: Imagine you're a child in an orphanage. But the owner of the orphanage is rich and his kids get almost everything they want. Consider that Armisen is one of those kids (just for the sake of argument). Now one of the kids (who basically has to fight for scraps at the table) gets a chance at a full meal from someone else. But the owner of the orphanage decides that it would be best for his child to get the full meal because of some metric he's created.

Maybe the metric is fair. But the issue really is that the orphans shouldn't have to fight over scraps in the first place. So when the rich kid walks off with the full meal, I totally understand why the orphan would be salty.

And about appearances... if appearance wasn't somewhat important, then a darker-skinned black man could have played Obama - with makeup on. They put makeup on Armisen (the article referenced this). But maybe they thought it was 'silly' to put makeup on a black man to make him lighter - but had no issue with it going the other way around?



And I think in recent years Hollywood has made strides in having various ethnicities playing mainstream, formerly "white" roles - look at all the crap romantic comedies Jennifer Lopez has made. And I don't think I, Robot or I am Legend's original stories had African-American main characters.

When we start seeing more things like this, then I'll celebrate. Until then, it's just a fad in my eyes. I need to see more equality in casting and definitely more roles for AA women where they aren't marginalized to start celebrating. Having 3 or 4 in a decade isn't anything to write home about.

[miel]

I think we need to keep criticizing Hollywood and the entertainment industry for the narrow spectrum they are constantly offering us. Otherwise, they will never take risks with casting or do anything interesting. Yes, it's racially designed to appeal to the wider masses so it's a vast sea of whiteness with some smattering of other groups. I do think though acting is pretending--and this means that a hard and fast barrier between races just doesn't make sense--especially not in comedy. I guess there is a hard and fast barrier between genders. I can't see the most talented transexual getting a role as a romantic lead if his/her status were known. But there has to be some room for creative choice there. One issue is when a white person is preferred because it will appeal to white people who can't stretch their imaginations in any way.

I don't think there should be a barrier. Instead, it seems like there needs to be a lot of reflection on why someone is in what role and what are they doing in the role. You couldn't cast Cameron Diaz to play a Latino of a certain kind. That would just be a mistake. If you are just looking to diversify, Cameron Diaz is a pretty lame choice. Who even knows she is Latina?

Maybe I just say this because yesterday my three year old was insisting that boys could not pretend to be princesses and I was like: Hello? You pretend to be a KITTEN. Are you a kitten? A boy can pretend to be a girl ergo a boy can pretend to be a princess.

OK, totally irrelevant. It seems silly to put down a barrier that even the most talented actor should not cross.

On the other hand, thank God it is now ludicrous to put a white person in the role of an Asian in movies. If you ever want to watch a travesty, watch Teahouse of the August Moon. Or The Good Earth. LORD. The plot is good but it's just so hard to get past the whole thing of white people badly made up to look 'Asian'. The movies with white people dressed up with Native Americans are equally laughably bad. And of course, that is all racism because they wanted to make the characters sympathetic for a white audience and thought you couldn't put an actual Native American or Asian in the role because then the white audience would be forbidden (psychologically) from true identification with the character. But this still holds true in a weak sense--which is why often black movies are for black audiences and we don't get mainstream good movies about different people's experience but just movies where a person's being black or Asian or Latino is kind of incidental and you can kind of forget they are not white if you want.

Or maybe I am naive. Are they still doing this in some movies? There is probably some movie now where they make some white person into an Asian.

Just think about how crazy that is, in a way. Is it just me or is it crazy to only cast white people as Asians and Native Americans? Anyway, besides the history of racial mocking there is probably this history to contend with in the fauxbama thing. But I don't think it perfectly maps onto this history either. It's just sort of a reminder of it.

[Niobe]

I guess there is a hard and fast barrier between genders.

Well, Cate Blanchett just played Bob Dylan, so that seems to be breaking down too. ;) But I agree with you on transgenders in Hollywood. Not a good place. Or even gays taking on straight roles.

I totally agree that Hollywood needs to keep feeling pressure to be more inclusive in their casting. But I have seriously mixed feelings about segregated casting and how far to take it. Okay, Teahouse of the August Moon for example. Yes, it would just be ridiculous to cast non-Asians. But do the actors have to be Japanese, or would a Korean actor be acceptable? Was the criticism of Jennifer Lopez in Selena justified (about her being Puerto Rican, not her singing)? Does anyone criticize Naveen Andrews, who is Indian, for playing Sayid Jarah, an Iraqi, on Lost ? Where does the line get drawn?

And as more and more people are born of multiple racial heritages, how does that get handled? Would Armisen be acceptable to portray Tiger Woods? Is it race, or appearance that is the qualification? How different a shade can one's skin be? If an Indian can "pass" for Mexican, is that acceptable?

Yeah, I don't have easy answers to these questions either. Obviously, some instances call for characters of a specific race, and deviating from that would be so absurd as to be unacceptable. But others, like comedic parodies, I think can be color-blind, and gender-blind as well, without creating a conflict.

The ultimate goal for our society is equality without regard to race, correct? And it's been well-established that separate can never be equal. So by having Obama portrayed by a person of Asian/European/Hispanic decent, aren't we erasing a bit of that line separating the races? SNL emphasized talent over race - isn't that kinda the point?

[maxandmolly]

SNL emphasized talent over race - isn't that kinda the point?
Except...Armisen isn't very good as Obama. I think he was just the only one "pass"able enough-Keenan is far too big, and to put a "white" white guy in the role would have surely caused (even more of) an uproar. I don't think it's a matter of talent, so much as it just being the best they could do.

[miel]

Does anyone criticize Naveen Andrews, who is Indian, for playing Sayid Jarah, an Iraqi, on Lost ? Where does the line get drawn?

Well, when I see him I am like "Dude, you are SO not Iraqi." He's South Asian all the way. I don't know if he is from India or Pakistan but Iraqi is kind of a stretch.

I don't think there should be a line. The main reason is it is a problem is that all the roles are cast to make sure white audiences feel safe or to appeal to white audiences or what have you.

Hijack but: The good thing about Lost is that they are kinda sorta trying not to do this and it is working. It made the show SO MUCH better. I worry they have killed off a lot of their good characters though and are stuck with the anglo people and their (boring to me) love stories. I hope other shows will realize that the variety of characters is what enriches the show. This is also what makes The Wire 100X better than most of the shows on TV right now.

[Koala_Gurl]

Ok, this may be bordering silly, but with the whole Hollywood casting stuff...

When are they going to start casting larger or unattractive people in roles? Why are fat men generally more accepted in Hollywood than a fat woman. They often have several thin young women on Survivor and a token older / larger woman.

Why should Keenan be "too fat" to portray Obama?

There are stereotypes and such everywhere...for every type of human out there.

I start feeling like this becomes similar to my husband & my favorite argument...who's job is tougher: his working to support the family or my "working" to raise our 2 children. We each have our issues and challenges, but there is no way to really to even equate our "jobs."

[miel]

Why should Keenan be "too fat" to portray Obama?

Generally, with mimicry, you have to roughly share the physical characteristics of the person you are mimicking.

I was reading that this one show is searching high and low for a Gordon Brown. They can't find one. Apparently, no one looks enough like Gordon Brown (England's prime minister).

Similarity bores me. Stories would be more interesting and better told if they were about a wider variety of people. So I agree with you about the need for fat characters.

[Niobe]

While ITA with the weight issue (and don't get me started on what gets called "heavy" in Hollywood), I don't think the problem with Keenan playing Obama is just his weight. Looking at headshots of the two, Armisen just plain looks more like Obama in facial structure. Yes, if you put Keenan in a conservative suit and had him debate a Hillary impersonator, the audience would get that he was supposed to be Obama. Based solely on race. That can't possibly be the better choice.

[miel]

Armisen just plain looks more like Obama in facial structure.

Mimickry is kind of interesting--it's not like Chevy Chase looked like Ford or that guy who did Clinton (who was brilliant) really looked like Clinton. I don't know if you can tell if someone can do another person by looking at them alone. There are these little things that a comedian can pull on that make it work. The guy who did Clinton did the nodding and the lip bite and that's how he pulled it off.

I think Armisen gets that geeky gravitas that Obama has a bit. He's not horrible at him. It's not the similarity in the way they look because he really doesn't look like Obama except he's kind of bony. They do his ears physically since that is the thing people are drawn to caricature. But a really funny guy like Keenan might be able to pull it off if he could just find the right approach. You'd have to see him do him first to know.

[Rose]

Mimickry is kind of interesting--it's not like Chevy Chase looked like Ford or that guy who did Clinton (who was brilliant) really looked like Clinton. I don't know if you can tell if someone can do another person by looking at them alone. There are these little things that a comedian can pull on that make it work. The guy who did Clinton did the nodding and the lip bite and that's how he pulled it off.

And the thumbs up. Darrel Hammond does Bill better than Biil does Bill. ;P

[phoenics]

Well, Cate Blanchett just played Bob Dylan, so that seems to be breaking down too. ;) But I agree with you on transgenders in Hollywood. Not a good place. Or even gays taking on straight roles.

I totally agree that Hollywood needs to keep feeling pressure to be more inclusive in their casting. But I have seriously mixed feelings about segregated casting and how far to take it. Okay, Teahouse of the August Moon for example. Yes, it would just be ridiculous to cast non-Asians. But do the actors have to be Japanese, or would a Korean actor be acceptable? Was the criticism of Jennifer Lopez in Selena justified (about her being Puerto Rican, not her singing)? Does anyone criticize Naveen Andrews, who is Indian, for playing Sayid Jarah, an Iraqi, on Lost ? Where does the line get drawn?

And as more and more people are born of multiple racial heritages, how does that get handled? Would Armisen be acceptable to portray Tiger Woods? Is it race, or appearance that is the qualification? How different a shade can one's skin be? If an Indian can "pass" for Mexican, is that acceptable?

Yeah, I don't have easy answers to these questions either. Obviously, some instances call for characters of a specific race, and deviating from that would be so absurd as to be unacceptable. But others, like comedic parodies, I think can be color-blind, and gender-blind as well, without creating a conflict.

The ultimate goal for our society is equality without regard to race, correct? And it's been well-established that separate can never be equal.

I kinda get what you're saying - I just don't see it that way. I would hope that we could get equality in spite of race - meaning I shouldn't have to lay down my cultural identity and assimilate just to be seen as equal - and that's what tends to happen in America today.

Also, sometimes I'm not so sure integrated means equal either. Integration was supposed to solve the whole 'black doll/white doll' thing and according to that documentary that was done last year or so, it hasn't. After integration, black children were still seeing themselves as inferior... and that has to do with the fact that we haven't really addressed the self-hate thing in this country yet. Most people tend to just ignore it or sweep it under the rug - but that's a whoooole other thread.

So by having Obama portrayed by a person of Asian/European/Hispanic decent, aren't we erasing a bit of that line separating the races? SNL emphasized talent over race - isn't that kinda the point?

I see what you're saying here - but I guess it feels like a slippery slope that could so easily just be used as an excuse not to cast black actors...

[cosmic]

Except...Armisen isn't very good as Obama.

Honestly, I think that's a huge part of it. As far as I can tell most of the negative sentiment is "OK, you went with a white guy who sucked". Had he nailed the part, most people would have thought it was hilarious.

[phoenics]

Ok, this may be bordering silly, but with the whole Hollywood casting stuff...

When are they going to start casting larger or unattractive people in roles? Why are fat men generally more accepted in Hollywood than a fat woman. They often have several thin young women on Survivor and a token older / larger woman.

Why should Keenan be "too fat" to portray Obama?

There are stereotypes and such everywhere...for every type of human out there.

I start feeling like this becomes similar to my husband & my favorite argument...who's job is tougher: his working to support the family or my "working" to raise our 2 children. We each have our issues and challenges, but there is no way to really to even equate our "jobs."

I feel you on the bias against fat women in Hollywood.

[msnicolea]

Maybe I'm naive, but I get the feeling that SNL would LOVE to have a more diverse cast, since they've been criticized for years re: this very issue. It seems to me, though, that they typically pull their talent from improv troops and similar settings that are made up largely, for whatever reason, of white performers. If it were just a case of hiring actors to play roles, things would look differently, I think.

I actually think Armisen can pull it off--he's one of my favorite performers on the show!

[kendriln]

The skit this past week just wasn't that funny to me because it seemed like a rehash of the previous week. Also, the lines for Obama were monosyllabic (just not his style and a result of poor writing) and monotone (also not his style and a result of a poor impression). Both Armisen and the writers are going to have to work on this. I understand they were trying to mock the media, but that bit is only going to last so long.

And I think that SNL is going to have to seriously work on getting a more diverse cast. Not for the purpose of having brown actors play brown parts but so that, by casting a wider net, they truly end up with the best talent.

[kedzieb]

I feel you on the bias against fat women in Hollywood.

My least favorite trend of the past 10 years has been men playing overweight women. Either fat men or ones wearing fat suits. It disgusts me. It's so sexist and demeaning.

[miel]

Yeah, good point Kedzieb.

[phoenics]

My least favorite trend of the past 10 years has been men playing overweight women. Either fat men or ones wearing fat suits. It disgusts me. It's so sexist and demeaning.

OMGosh that bothers me too - Norbit really made me uncomfortable, and I didn't feel like I could properly articulate why - but you've explained that very well. It's the mocking inherent in those roles.

[dionysia]

OT: Jon Culshaw's impression of Tony Blair is spot-on. "Dead Ringer" indeed.

[jenahdawn]

OMGosh that bothers me too - Norbit really made me uncomfortable, and I didn't feel like I could properly articulate why - but you've explained that very well. It's the mocking inherent in those roles.


This has probably more to do with the fact that, with the exception of "The Golden Child"~even that is pushing it~I can't stand Eddie Murphy, but I am getting pretty sick and damned tired of him making fun of people who are overweight, I could care less their color. You've got this skinny guy DELIBERATELY making fun of peoples' weight. WAY not cool in my book.

(Again, I cannot stand Eddie Murphy)

[jnettie]

Agreed. Why is it a big deal only now that it looks like whoever gets the role may hit the 4-year lottery? <snip> I'd think, being hired only because you're AA, and they need an AA actor to fill X role, would be damn insulting.
Except that this is totally normal in casting. If you read the casting calls in the trade papers, they will often be very specific about who they are looking for. If it doesn't matter, it will say so, but if it does, the audition notice will say what race, age, height, weight, gender, etc. Sometimes even hair color or eye color.

I think we need to keep criticizing Hollywood and the entertainment industry for the narrow spectrum they are constantly offering us. Otherwise, they will never take risks with casting or do anything interesting. Yes, it's racially designed to appeal to the wider masses so it's a vast sea of whiteness with some smattering of other groups. I do think though acting is pretending--and this means that a hard and fast barrier between races just doesn't make sense--especially not in comedy.
Well...that depends. While acting is pretending, tv and movies requires much more realism that theater, musicals, or other live performing arts. So, if you do a movie about the American Revolution, you really need to cast a white guy as George Washington. But, if you do the musical "1776" it may not matter as much because live theater has much more room for imagination and suspension of belief. BUT if you are doing modern day stuff and it doesn't matter, then they SHOULD cast a more diverse cast.

On the other hand, thank God it is now ludicrous to put a white person in the role of an Asian in movies. If you ever want to watch a travesty, watch Teahouse of the August Moon. Or The Good Earth. LORD. The plot is good but it's just so hard to get past the whole thing of white people badly made up to look 'Asian'. The movies with white people dressed up with Native Americans are equally laughably bad. And of course, that is all racism because they wanted to make the characters sympathetic for a white audience and thought you couldn't put an actual Native American or Asian in the role because then the white audience would be forbidden (psychologically) from true identification with the character. But this still holds true in a weak sense--which is why often black movies are for black audiences and we don't get mainstream good movies about different people's experience but just movies where a person's being black or Asian or Latino is kind of incidental and you can kind of forget they are not white if you want.

Or maybe I am naive. Are they still doing this in some movies? There is probably some movie now where they make some white person into an Asian.

I can address this a little bit, because much of my opinion has been shaped by my DH, who I've already mentioned is Asian (Chinese). He's a pretty laid back guy, doesn't get easily offended, but there are a LOT of old movies we just can't watch because of whites playing Asians. There was an old Katherine Hepburn movie where she played a Chinese woman, meanwhile real Asians were in the background. And while the movie was meant to be sympathetic to Chinese, it sent him on a tirade about how it's always ok to cast whites as Asian, and still is now. You WILL see whites play Asians quite often, still.

A few years back, David Henry Hwang went out of his way to do a production of "Flower Drum Song" on Broadway that had an ALL Asian cast. This was, sadly, ground-breaking. I can guarantee that you didn't see all Asian chorus girls in "Miss Saigon."

When are they going to start casting larger or unattractive people in roles? Why are fat men generally more accepted in Hollywood than a fat woman. They often have several thin young women on Survivor and a token older / larger woman.
They're not. Hollywood is all consumed with looks, youth, and beauty. It sucks, and it's a major reason I stopped performing and instead went into behind-the-scenes work. But the wider audience won't accept anything less, so until youth and beauty stops making them money, they won't stop.


Casting different races shouldn't matter unless it is integral to to roll or story. For example, IMO Disney's "Aida" on Broadway was a horrible failure with their casting because it was supposed to be a story about people of "different worlds" falling in love. They used a white man and black woman. Only, the white guy had a black father and Latina girlfriend and the people in their clans the "Nubians" vs "Egyptians" were of all sorts of races all mixed together. Confusing! It's like the example of doing "West Side Story" without casting white vs. Latino. It makes no sense, and just confuses the audience. BUT, if it doesn't matter, then you should cast for talent over race.

Honestly, I'm not all in a tiff about Armsen as Obama. But, IMO, I don't think there are enough opportunities for Actors and Actresses of other races than white out there. On this Phoenics and I are in total agreement. 9 times out of 10, the casting director is looking for a white woman for the enjenue. There are lots of very funny people out there of all kinds of backgrounds. They just need the chance.

[phoenics]

But the wider audience won't accept anything less, so until youth and beauty stops making them money, they won't stop.

This sounds just like the arguments that Hollywood made about how the wider audience wouldn't accept black movies that depicted blacks as something else other than thugs and ho's. That's why Tyler Perry is the one having to break that mold - and why Spike Lee had to do it too. It's also the argument they made against The Cosby Show before it aired - and THAT show proved them SO wrong. It's also the same argument that magazines like Vogue made about why they didn't put more black models or even other minority models (and I'm not talking about the ones who practically look white either) on their cover.

I don't believe the 'wider audience won't accept this' claims. They've been debunked too many times. I think that you are what you watch and that what is in the media actually shapes society in some way. So, if Hollywood actually had to be more fair or whatever in their casting, people would eventually come to see it as the norm.



Casting different races shouldn't matter unless it is integral to to roll or story. For example, IMO Disney's "Aida" on Broadway was a horrible failure with their casting because it was supposed to be a story about people of "different worlds" falling in love. They used a white man and black woman. Only, the white guy had a black father and Latina girlfriend and the people in their clans the "Nubians" vs "Egyptians" were of all sorts of races all mixed together. Confusing! It's like the example of doing "West Side Story" without casting white vs. Latino. It makes no sense, and just confuses the audience. BUT, if it doesn't matter, then you should cast for talent over race.

And who makes the judgement call on 'talent'? Too many times that's not what happens. And apparently ONLY when a black actor gets shafted out of a role does the 'but Armisen is more talented!' argument comes up. I don't buy it - especially after seeing him play the part. He wasn't good, imo.


Honestly, I'm not all in a tiff about Armsen as Obama. But, IMO, I don't think there are enough opportunities for Actors and Actresses of other races than white out there. On this Phoenics and I are in total agreement. 9 times out of 10, the casting director is looking for a white woman for the enjenue. There are lots of very funny people out there of all kinds of backgrounds. They just need the chance.

Amen to that.

[curlyjr]

A few years ago, I was in a production of West Side Story where we didn't have any Latinos even audition. We had to use theater makeup and wigs. We also had some girls playing Jets and Sharks. I don't see how that could be construed as racist. It was a play and we did the best with what we had.

[msnicolea]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080305/ap_en_mo/people_downey_jr;_ylt=AhyOUR1dmOPBeWkTmByWBMFxFb8C

Interesting concept. He's playing a white man who plays black roles as an actor.

[imagirliegirl]

I realize this isn't a big issue. I guess I just wondered if I am wrong or not.


I don't think it's a big deal. It's not like he mocked black people or anything. SNL commonly uses white actors for black people or vice versa.

Honestly, I thought Ellen Page playing the black girl looking for booty shorts in the baby Gap last week was a little more on the "hm I don't know about that" side.

[ysolde]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080305/ap_en_mo/people_downey_jr;_ylt=AhyOUR1dmOPBeWkTmByWBMFxFb8C

Interesting concept. He's playing a white man who plays black roles as an actor.


I obviously have not seen the movie, but I suspect what Stiller and Downey have in mind is an extremely self-conscious look at how the acting profession -- which is all about inhabiting an Other -- deals with this issue. Edgy? Absolutely. Insensitive? I suspect not. And I think an actor like Downey, with his ability to play a role from within while looking at it from outside, is the perfect choice for the role. Done right, this is an interesting exploration of the very theme we are discussing here.

[phoenics]

"If it's done right, it could be the type of role you called Peter Sellers to do 35 years ago," Downey told Entertainment Weekly magazine. "If you don't do it right, we're going to hell."

LMBO!

[msnicolea]

ITA, ysolde--just thought it fit in to our discussion!

[jnettie]

This sounds just like the arguments that Hollywood made about how the wider audience wouldn't accept black movies that depicted blacks as something else other than thugs and ho's.
Ah, sorry, lemme expand a bit...the youth and beauty=money attitude is so strong in Hollywood, it will be quite a fight to see this change. And I was pointing a finger the viewers ourselves who pick apart actresses for the tiniest things. It's an ugly part of the entertainment world that I definitely don't enjoy or even agree with. I just don't see it changing anytime soon. But I'm also a cynic.

ETA - I also quit dancing largely because I was tired of being told I'd be a good dancer once my thighs were thinner. And I am 5'3" and at the time was 115 lbs. I've felt that sting - it's not a good feeling.

And who makes the judgement call on 'talent'? Too many times that's not what happens. And apparently ONLY when a black actor gets shafted out of a role does the 'but Armisen is more talented!' argument comes up. I don't buy it - especially after seeing him play the part. He wasn't good, imo.
That was a response to someone saying "oh, it shouldn't matter anyway". I'm too lazy to go back and look. I was explaining why sometimes it matters and sometimes it doesn't. And when it doesn't the part *should* go to the best actress/actor for the roll, not the prettiest white girl, KWIM?

And, you know, I bet there's lots of funny things they could have done with Kennan *especially* if he looks nothing like Obama. A bad impression could have been hilarious!

A few years ago, I was in a production of West Side Story where we didn't have any Latinos even audition. We had to use theater makeup and wigs. We also had some girls playing Jets and Sharks. I don't see how that could be construed as racist. It was a play and we did the best with what we had.
I think that is a call on the circumstances around you. Why did the theater choose "West Side Story"? Could other immigrant groups be used instead of Latinos? Could they have instead done a modern version of "Romeo and Juliet"? What are the demographics of the area? Are there lots of Latinos in the area? And would you have done "Showboat" if no African Americans showed up for auditions? There are LOTS of musicals out there - pick one that doesn't rely on race if you don't think you can cast appropriately.

I'm gonna say it one more time I don't think everyone who uses makeup to make white people look like non-white ethnicities does it to make fun or be racist on purpose. I think they just don't realize how it can make people who are those races feel. Like I've said, I've seen this a lot, even in New York City, where there are certainly LOTS of actors and actresses of LOTS of ethnic backgrounds. People who I work with and are my friends have done this. I just think that people need to think a little bit before they go ahead and do.

It happens that last night I was sitting with DH and we saw a trailer for the movie "21" which is based on the book "Bringing Down the House" about MIT students who counted cards in Vegas. The book is about a real person - Jeff Ma, an asian, but his name was changed to Kevin Lewis in the book. The movie has a white guy play the Kevin Lewis character, even though the REAL PERSON is an Asian guy. You can bet that set DH off.

I'm not unreasonable. I mean, you can't cast all Italians all the time, and you can dye hair and use contacts to change eye color, heck this is my job to provide wigs, etc, to change the appearance of an actor or actress. But I think you just need to consider why you are choosing to use makeup and hair dye to make someone look like a race they are not.

I used the example of "The Mikado" before. In some ways, the only *right* way to do this is to have whites dressed as Japanese. In so many ways, "The Mikado" is more about England than it is about Japan. But, does that mean it's ok to do this for "Showboat"? Or "The Color Purple"?

[jenahdawn]

jnettie, I know you have a theater background and you are in costumes. I too have that same background. And you should know, in theater (non-professional, which is where you and I have both worked...college players aren't paid), you can wish and hope the type you want is cast. But, if the type you want does not audition, you cannot cast. (I knew who I would have loved to design for as a stripper for a show I did....but she and types like her did not audition. Instead, I got the opposite of MY ideal.) And you also know that seasons are planned enough ahead of time, it's just who auditions. Besides, it is much easier for, say, a community theater to perform "West Side Story" than the Bard....

SNL is done casting FOR THE SEASON. With the writers strike (as most of the cast are writers as well), the cast could not work. And, back in Sept, before it all happened, Clinton was the front runner, so no one really expected they would have to have a longer term Obama. During the hiatus coming up, they can look for a better choice and hope for fresh blood to audition, but they had to go with who they had. Fred Armisen will most likely not be the be all, end all Barack Obama. (I hope they have at least a 1/2 cast turnover. It's just getting worse.)

[Niobe]

A few years ago, I was in a production of West Side Story where we didn't have any Latinos even audition. We had to use theater makeup and wigs. We also had some girls playing Jets and Sharks. I don't see how that could be construed as racist. It was a play and we did the best with what we had.

When I did West Side Story, we ended up with a Hispanic Tony. He was the best guy who auditioned. Was this also wrong? Should we have cast a white guy, since the role is pretty specific about that detail?

[curlyjr]

I think it should be who does the part best, and it's theater, so things like makeup and costumes are used for everyone. I think the show has a great message about racism and it would have been a shame to cancel it, just because we didn't have the "right" people in certain parts. i truly hope we didn't offend anyone, that was never the intention.

[jnettie]

jenahdawn, I work in both professional and academic theater, but I think both have the same issues. At my school, we have a very diverse student body, so we try to do a lot of plays that are written for lots of races. We've done plays Susan Lori Parks and Nilos Cruz amongst others with the idea in mind that we have a lot of African American and Latino students. We also do lots of the classics. We did "The Seagull" and it was a multi-national and multi-ethnic cast. Nina was 1/2 Native American and Constantin was Turkish.

Look, I know that this stuff happens all the time, and makeup and wigs are used to change people's look. And I really don't care if Billy Crystal did Jesse Jackson in the 80s. I just don't agree with this as a practice. And I think you loose your message about racism when you confuse your audience because they can't figure out what the big deal is when your Tony is a Latino and so is your Maria.

And I know that this is about a "white" guy who's 1/2 white and 1/2 Asian doing and impression of a man who is 1/2 white and 1/2 African, and all of the sudden everyone is so shocked that this is a big deal because, hey, he's half white. But like Phoenics said, when you look at Obama, I think we all see "black man" not "white man." And it has been a very long and standard taboo for whites to put on makeup to look like blacks for tv, movies, and theater. I'm just saying, as the white wife of an Asian man, that we should think hard about this practice for ANY RACE.

I know how seasons are chosen, but I also know that theaters - professional theaters - often have a mission statement about the types of plays they do. So, in planning your season, you need to think about the types of actors available in your area. I gotta say, I know lots of young Latinos who'd love to be in West Side Story. It's a great musical. But I'll ask again, would your theater ever dream of doing "Ragtime" or "Showboat" without any African Americans in it? If you did "The Crucible" would you cast Tituba as a white person?

There are always exceptions to the rule (see my "Mikado" example), but INSHO, any theater who is considering doing a production where race matters need to consider whether they will be able to cast appropriately.

[jnettie]

I think it should be who does the part best, and it's theater, so things like makeup and costumes are used for everyone. I think the show has a great message about racism and it would have been a shame to cancel it, just because we didn't have the "right" people in certain parts. i truly hope we didn't offend anyone, that was never the intention.

My co-worker has said on more than one occasion - "if the director wanted big boobs, he should have cast big boobs." Meaning, we, the costume people, get stuck fixing all the things that the director wanted, but didn't get when casting. And a flat-chested woman wearing a bra full of poly-fill will just look like a flat-chested woman wearing a bra full of poly-fill.

Plus, acting is a tough business. One person might be a better actor, but because he or she doesn't look right, they can loose the part. Heck, sometimes the part goes to the person who can fit in the costume! It's hardly ever fair, and far too often has little to do with talent.

I know you didn't mean to offend. :) I realize this is a standard practice. I just don't agree with it.


ETA...and totally unrelated to this particular post, my friend's DH, who just happens to also be 1/2 AA, half white, is freaking hilarious and would be a great Obama...if he were just 20 years older!
Click here and see for yourselves! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFJd5wqEpXI)

[ysolde]

Back in college, we cast an AA actress as Roxanne in a production of Cyrano de Bergerac. She was the best person to audition by far, and she was a stunning beauty, by any measure. We did have to omit a few lines in the play (about her golden hair, mostly). Sometimes, you cast the best actor, and it works.

Here she is now:

http://newyork.metromix.com/music/classical/eisa-davis-noho/291711/content

[phoenics]

Good gosh she's pretty.

[ysolde]

She is gorgeous still, isn't she?

[miel]

How do you pronounce her name?

Wait, did she write a play that was a finalist for the Pulitzer? Sheesh.

[ysolde]

Eisa is pronounced Ee-sah.

Yes, she did.

[jenahdawn]

If you did "The Crucible" would you cast Tituba as a white person?


Sore spot.....When we did it (HS), it was down to me and a girl who was 1/4 black, 1/4 Chinese, 1/2 I forgot. She couldn't act. (Uh, Tituba did not say "Girrrrrrl!") But, she got it based on looks. And was absolutely TERRIBLE. I ended up as Mercy.

But, the whole production was a mess. During the day on opening night, the guy who played the Judge went to the eye doctor and ended up diagnosed with some eye infection and couldn't be around bright lights....so he wore dark sunglasses. Yes, 1630s, dark sunglasses....the only time we'd gotten through the courtroom scene was opening night and, as the lights went down, the cast was so excited, they started screaming and cheering and jumping on each other. Other schools came to see it since they had to read it and walked away laughing. It was so embarrassing and such a mess! God, I hate that show! (That and the Sound of Music, but that's a whole other story!)

/end hijack

[curlyjr]

in my hs tituba was a white person, i admit, it seemed odd. the whole thing is tricky, i thought nothing of doing west side but for example I think an all white cast of porgy and bess would be wrong.

[jnettie]

LOL, jenahdawn, don't mean to laugh, but that sounded like a nightmare! Yeah, sometimes (well, a lot of the time) theater just kind of ... sucks. And it sucks for all sorts of reasons.

Hm, ysolde, that link ins't working for me. But, yeah, sometimes a little tweek will change everything. But it doesn't matter if Roxanne is white or AA, does it? ;)

In light of this thread, I went back and looked at the cast list of the latest show I've been hired to design - a kids show no less - and the ONLY character that has race specified is the AA "jazz musician". Everyone else is nebulous, but most likely will be cast white. Hmmmm....

Anyway, just wanted to say that this has been an interesting conversation and I appreciate everyone challenging me to back up my opinions with a solid argument. :)