Anyone Pro Hillary?

[Southlooper]

Just wondering. For the benefit of those, who like me, are undecided. If you for Hillary, care to share why?

TIA!

[kedzieb]

I agree with as many of Clinton's stances on policy as I do Obama & actually think her health care plan is better. They do have so much in common that any of those "Who is your candidate?" quizzes tends to give me both Clinton and Obama equally.

I'm not against Obama and I will support either him or Clinton in the general election. I wish we wouldn't tear Hilary down in order to build Barack up or vice-versa. I think Bush gave us enough problems that we need more than one Democrat president over the next 16 years to fix our country. I think either of them would make a wonderful president.

[phoenics]

I agree that Hillary would make a good president, as would Barack. I wish that Hillary and her campaign people did not feel the need to tear Barack down though. I think that's hurt her and muddied up her message. Maybe she believes Barack has no substance, however she comes across as having less substance when all we hear is an attack. When Hill focuses on the issues, she comes across so much better.

Her campaign is doing her in because in reality she's just as good as Barack on the issues - they're practically even.

[Anna Low]

DH and I are very pro-Hillary. We believe she has the clearest and most detailed plans for moving this country forward - plans that we very much agree with as citizens. I like her ideas on healthcare especially. It isn't that I disagree with Obama, it is that I don't believe his plans are well thought out. Its one thing to be charismatic and a good speaker, but it is entirely another to be able to present a solid plan for the future. Telling me "yes, we can" is not a plan. It is a slogan. DH and I both find Hillary to be incredibly intelligent and believe she has enough experience to understand and navigate the nuances of both domestic and foreign policy. And based on how awful our last 8 years of foreign policy has been, we desperately need someone who can lead us safely through the mess that has been created. Lastly, from a very personal perspective, I want to see a woman in office. Even being a dem, I supported Elizabeth Dole for that reason.

As far as the tearing down goes, I find that people seem to bash Hillary for whatever she says against Obama. This is politics and I think she is being very restrained. If he can't handle the mild stuff, then what is going to happen to him when the republicans get started?

[ihearttx]

DH and I are very pro-Hillary. We believe she has the clearest and most detailed plans for moving this country forward - plans that we very much agree with as citizens. I like her ideas on healthcare especially. It isn't that I disagree with Obama, it is that I don't believe his plans are well thought out. Its one thing to be charismatic and a good speaker, but it is entirely another to be able to present a solid plan for the future. Telling me "yes, we can" is not a plan. It is a slogan. DH and I both find Hillary to be incredibly intelligent and believe she has enough experience to understand and navigate the nuances of both domestic and foreign policy. And based on how awful our last 8 years of foreign policy has been, we desperately need someone who can lead us safely through the mess that has been created. Lastly, from a very personal perspective, I want to see a woman in office. Even being a dem, I supported Elizabeth Dole for that reason.

As far as the tearing down goes, I find that people seem to bash Hillary for whatever she says against Obama. This is politics and I think she is being very restrained. If he can't handle the mild stuff, then what is going to happen to him when the republicans get started?

I agree 100% with everything you said.

And I'd like to add that I miss having the Clintons in the White House for entertainment purposes as well. I miss the good times! :D

[gayle]

Hillary is still my leading contender, though I have great admiration for Obama, and believe he would be an excellent President.

I will support either one of them, but I hope Hillary becomes the nominee, simply because I believe her more capable of picking up the moderates in both parties. In other words, I think she currently is more electable.

[laura]

I would really like to see a woman President, too, but I'm not convinced Hillary is the best candidate for the job. That is to say, the feminist side of me wants to vote for her b/c she is a WOMAN, but possibly/probably only in the absence of another woman choice. I'm also afraid she will screw up something big and end up setting women back even farther. No real reason for that, just a gut feeling/fear.

[tenofcups]

I'm not opposed to Obama, but I'm more for Clinton at this time. I like what she has to say and I believe she can make things happen. I'm not entirely sure what his stance his on multiple issues, which worries me. My parents brought up the point this weekend that they can't figure out what his stance is on Israel at all and as a Jew, that definitely worries me. It's not the only thing I vote on obviously, but it's an issue that's of concern. And of even more concern when he either can't or won't say what his view is.

[am_81]

I agree with much of what Anna Low said. I am not anti-Obama per se, and I will support whatever Dem eventually wins the nomination, but I would much prefer Hillary as the president over anyone else. I dont know how exactly to put it, but I just *trust* Hillary more than I do Obama. Obama is a very charismatic speaker and I love that he inspires people, but I just dont believe that when it comes down to it, he is the best for our country right now. I was talking to a (non-American) friend yesterday and we both agreed that if "something" would happen to the US in the next year or so, we would feel much more comfortable with Hillary leading our nation. She has the skills and experience that the US needs right now to right the wrongs of the current administration.

[Myra]

We believe she has the clearest and most detailed plans for moving this country forward - plans that we very much agree with as citizens. I like her ideas on healthcare especially. It isn't that I disagree with Obama, it is that I don't believe his plans are well thought out. Its one thing to be charismatic and a good speaker, but it is entirely another to be able to present a solid plan for the future. Telling me "yes, we can" is not a plan. It is a slogan. DH and I both find Hillary to be incredibly intelligent and believe she has enough experience to understand and navigate the nuances of both domestic and foreign policy.

I agree with a lot of this. I think her plans for healthcare and Iraq are much more practical and well though out than Obama's. I love that she's a great big ole policy wonk and has clearly defined thoughts on big and small issues. The last eight years have created a huge mess, and since she is already so used to being attacked, she will stand up better to the shitstorm she will have to deal with in office. Also, I've always just liked her.

I will admit that a part of my Hillary love comes from frustration from the Obama followers, who keep sending me speech transcripts or youtubes of speeches in response to asking why he would make a better president. Talk to me about plans for the freaking economy and Iraq!! He's not running for valedictorian and I don't need inspiration.

That said, I am scared that she can't win the general election since Republicans have so much hate for her that they'll be inspired to come out and vote against her in droves.

[Southlooper]

I agree that Hillary would make a good president, as would Barack. I wish that Hillary and her campaign people did not feel the need to tear Barack down though. I think that's hurt her and muddied up her message. Maybe she believes Barack has no substance, however she comes across as having less substance when all we hear is an attack. When Hill focuses on the issues, she comes across so much better.

Her campaign is doing her in because in reality she's just as good as Barack on the issues - they're practically even.

Yes, I wish she would stop with the negativity. If not anything she is giving the Republicans ample quotes to attack Obama should he win the nomination.

[TwnklToes80]

Originally Posted by Anna Low View Post
DH and I are very pro-Hillary. We believe she has the clearest and most detailed plans for moving this country forward - plans that we very much agree with as citizens. I like her ideas on healthcare especially. It isn't that I disagree with Obama, it is that I don't believe his plans are well thought out. Its one thing to be charismatic and a good speaker, but it is entirely another to be able to present a solid plan for the future. Telling me "yes, we can" is not a plan. It is a slogan. DH and I both find Hillary to be incredibly intelligent and believe she has enough experience to understand and navigate the nuances of both domestic and foreign policy. And based on how awful our last 8 years of foreign policy has been, we desperately need someone who can lead us safely through the mess that has been created. Lastly, from a very personal perspective, I want to see a woman in office. Even being a dem, I supported Elizabeth Dole for that reason.

As far as the tearing down goes, I find that people seem to bash Hillary for whatever she says against Obama. This is politics and I think she is being very restrained. If he can't handle the mild stuff, then what is going to happen to him when the republicans get started?
I agree 100% with everything you said.

And I'd like to add that I miss having the Clintons in the White House for entertainment purposes as well. I miss the good times! :D

Agree with both 100%!!!

I was NOT a Hillary fan at first. I really wasn't sure who I would vote for. However, at the NH debate, I felt that she sealed the deal for me. She has my vote.

[kendriln]

That said, I am scared that she can't win the general election since Republicans have so much hate for her that they'll be inspired to come out and vote against her in droves.

ITA and this is my major concern about her winning the nomination. She's very unpalatable to a lot of people, left and right.

[Delta]

How is her health care plan more thought out than his? When asked how she was going to enforce her mandates she had no real answer except to say something about garnishing wages. (And that's not gonna fly. Well, mandates aren't gonna fly for a lot of reasons.)

Obama doesn't just have slogans. He's just as substantive as she is on the issues if you pay attention. But he also has the ability to inspire and really lead. Those are not mutually exclusive attributes.

I'm a conservative who is troubled a lot by how people perceive this country now. (And that's not a popular view among R's, you are supposed to not care.) But I do care. I don't agree with many of his policies and I when it comes down to it, I'm not sure if I can actually vote for him in the General. But it many ways I would be very happy if he won. He could do so much to turn around the international perception of America. Hillary would do nothing to this end. In her core she is a combative politician. With her there would just be more of the same divisiveness and cynicism in Washington.

ETA: And I'm not naive enough to think it would all end with an Obama presidency, but at least it would be something different.

[Anna Low]

How is it more "thought out"? She is specific on what her plans are as opposed to simply saying that there is a healthcare plan. Obama does not spell out what he plans to do. He has positions on specific issues but does not provide a roadmap as to how it is to be accomplished. Personally, I happen to like her plan and believe that we as a nation need to do something to ensure that the citizens have some sort of medical coverage. In the long run, his plan, whatever it ends up being, could be just fine. But he has not convinced me of this. And to suggest that he does indeed have plans - that one must listen closely to hear the details - scares me. If these are such fine plans for moving us forward, why is it so hard to pin him down to get the details? Shouldn't they be shouted from the rafters? As a voter, I certainly think so. Youtube videos and people screaming like they are at rock concerts isn't something that raises my inspiration level and doesn't provide me with what I'm looking for in a candidate.

I totally agree with the concern about how negatively this country is perceived by others in the world. However, I deeply disagree that Hillary is incapable of effecting positive change in that perception. I believe wholeheartedly that she could and would. Maybe he could too. But my confidence level in that actually happening is zero.

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

How is it more "thought out"? She is specific on what her plans are as opposed to simply saying that there is a healthcare plan. Obama does not spell out what he plans to do. He has positions on specific issues but does not provide a roadmap as to how it is to be accomplished.
Have you looked at his website? Because that's just not true. It's Hillary's rhetoric.

[msnicolea]

I voted for Obama but am pro-her, to a degree, and think she has the best healthcare plan proposal out there. I will certainly support her in the general, should she be the nominee.

And ITA with Littlefred (a recurring theme)--that's just rhetoric. Obama's positions are very clearly stated and his plans are described.

"He makes speeches I have solutions" is just this year's equivalent of calling Kerry a flip-flopper.

[Delta]

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/02/21/healthcare/

I'm sitting here on the same side of an argument as msnicolea and lfph, and posting Salon articles; so, it's time for me to step away from the computer.

[msnicolea]

I am going to write a poem about you, Delta--I'm so inspired!

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

Don't worry Delta, it's probably just the lunar eclipse. ;)

[am_81]

I agree with this as well:

I totally agree with the concern about how negatively this country is perceived by others in the world. However, I deeply disagree that Hillary is incapable of effecting positive change in that perception. I believe wholeheartedly that she could and would.

I wont even bother trying to say it in my own words, because this says it perfectly.

[phoenics]

Have you looked at his website? Because that's just not true. It's Hillary's rhetoric.

Thank you. Obama's plan is thought out - much of the 'he's vague and etc..' is Hillary's rhetoric. She's been trying to cast him as an inspirational speaker and not someone who can actually 'act' - so she has to try to convince people that he has no real plan or that it isn't well thought out.

[phoenics]

oops - thought I was answering something else.

[Delta]

WRT Hillary being capable of changing international opinion I'll be frank- there is only one candidate in this race who has a mother from Kansas, a father from Kenya and middle name of Hussein. I can't imagine the reaction from many parts of the world when they see America elect such a man president.

[ThreeYell]

I think the vagueness thing is now a Hillary talking point, but I do think that it was true, at least in the early days of the campaign. I remember listening to him on a whole hour of Diane Rehm probably 18 months ago and waiting and waiting for him to say something specific - nada. I think that's largely strategy on his part. He's not trying to appeal to the policy wonks, which is disappointing to me as an armchair wonk. He's trying to bring people into the process who are more excited about big ideas, and he's succeeding.

[kedzieb]

Thank you. Obama's plan is thought out - much of the 'he's vague and etc..' is Hillary's rhetoric. She's been trying to cast him as an inspirational speaker and not someone who can actually 'act' - so she has to try to convince people that he has no real plan or that it isn't well thought out.

I think his healthcare plan is thought out, but I still think Clinton's is more likely to work in the long run.

I think Obama's appeal is in his inpirational messages and those naturally can't include policy points very well. So part of the reason I think he is so popular is his ability to be passionate and hopeful. But the drawback is less time/airtime to discuss his specific plans.

ETA - or I could have just waited for ThreeYell to post the same thing.

[phoenics]

I think his healthcare plan is thought out, but I still think Clinton's is more likely to work in the long run.

I think Obama's appeal is in his inpirational messages and those naturally can't include policy points very well. So part of the reason I think he is so popular is his ability to be passionate and hopeful. But the drawback is less time/airtime to discuss his specific plans.

ETA - or I could have just waited for ThreeYell to post the same thing.

I just don't think the mandate will work. Garnishing wages? I don't see that working at all. That doesn't address the issue that healthcare is just too expensive anyway.

[kedzieb]

I just don't think the mandate will work. Garnishing wages? I don't see that working at all. That doesn't address the issue that healthcare is just too expensive anyway.

I just think it's the most realistic way to have enough money for it. You have to have the young, healthy people paying in & using the universal care too, not just the older/poorer/sicker people.

[phoenics]

I just think it's the most realistic way to have enough money for it. You have to have the young, healthy people paying in & using the universal care too, not just the older/poorer/sicker people.

Currently my healthcare is partially paid for by my employer - as a benefit. I really don't want that to go away and I am not sure that it wouldn't with mandates. With Obama's plan, there appears to be more work to hybridize healthcare so that costs are covered by the private and public sector. I don't think that's how Hillary's plan works. I don't think an either or solution will work - I think only a hybridized one will. I don't mind paying in my share - but I don't want to have to pay more than I am right now unless my wages go up to cover the difference.

Corporations can get better deals as a whole than individuals. Maybe Hill is looking at ways to get those same kinds of deals though. But I know Obama is, his thinking is a bit out of the box on healthcare, which I like. I like new ideas (hybridized healthcare) because the older ones havent' worked.

[Delta]

I just think it's the most realistic way to have enough money for it.
Perhaps. But mandates are not politically feasible in the first place. They might be for kids, but not adults. There is no way Americans are going to agree to be forced to pay private - for-profit - companies for health insurance.

[msnicolea]

Well, that's the thing about a mandate--you don't have to agree to it to be forced to do it!

I truly believe that everyone must have health coverage: if you can afford it, great--you have to buy it--and if you can't, that's ok--the government will subsidize or cover it. But you MUST be covered.

This is where I think Obama gets it wrong--he believes people would buy it if they could afford it--I believe that some people would NEVER buy it, because that's how they choose to live; "it'll never happen to me" or "I'll just take my chances," etc. . . I bet we all know people who fit this description--and then guess what? They get in a car accident, and WE all pay for it.

[Delta]

I understand the purpose and the reasoning, I just don't see mandates politically making it through Congress - even a massively Democratic one.

I know it's not totally the same, but how is the Mass system working?

[nylons73]

I'm curious as to what the arguement is for Hillary being able to get things done (or even being able to beat McCain.)

The way I see it, in poll after poll Obama beats McCain head to head. Hillary either ties or loses. Hillary has not been able to get significant numbers of Independents and Republicans to vote for her in 'open' primaries. Obama has. A good candidate needs to get these voters on his/her side in a general. I think Independents and Moderate Republicans swing to McCain if Hill's the nominee in November.

Also, what kind of campaign is Hillary going to run as the Dem. nominee. So far she has:

1. Blown through over 150 Million before Super Tuesday and then found herself broke.
2. Had to loan herself 5 Million.
3. In financial reports released yesterday, her campaign disclosed that they are more than 7 Million in debt to caterers, event coordinators, and even her own strategist (Mark Penn.) She owes Penn 2 Million.
4. In an article published by TIME today http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1714840,00.html?imw=Y
The Clintons' arguements for why they haven't been winning are discussed.
Among them are:

1. Red states don't matter because there are too many Republicans in them.
2. Caucus states don't matter because they favor the 'rich' and as Bill Clinton recently stated "Rich people don't really need a president."
3. States with African-American populations don't matter - not sure why but I guess it's because Obama has brainwashed AAs into voting for him?

And new....Primaries don't matter! From the Time article = "Penn said recently, "winning Democratic primaries is not a qualification or a sign of who can win the general election."

Also, at Hilary's Tuesday night Youngstown, OH event, a Union leader whom was introducing Hillary (Tom Buffenbarger) addressed Obama supporters calling them " latte-drinking, Prius- driving, Birkenstock-wearing, trust fund babies�

I don't think that this is a responsible way to run a campaign. I don't think that this is a responsible way to get more Independents and Republicans to vote for the Democratic candidate. I don't think that it's responsible to run a campaign that loans itself 5 million dollars and is STILL in debt by 7 Million.

If she's able to make a comeback in TX and OH, I don't see how in the world Hillary wins in November. I'm not meaning to snark or be mean or anything else. I just don't really see it. She doesn't have the right team behind her and they seem really disorganized to say the least.

[phoenics]

nylons73 - WOW!

I can't believe someone with the last name of Buffenbarger had the nerve to call anyone 'Birkenstock-wearing'. I mean, his last name sounds like he invented them.

Aside from what you posted, my main beef with Hill these days is that she lets things 'slip' out of her campaign (first the swiftboating stuff, then Bill Clinton's comments and then the plagiarism stuff) and only AFTER there is a negative reaction does she pull it back and distance herself claiming she didn't authorize it or had nothing to do with it.

So, I'm back to my original question: Either she can't control her own campaign (possibly true with the money management problems) and thus how would she control the country during her presidency - OR, she's lying about her role in letting those things 'slip' out of her campaign.

It sucks because originally I liked her a lot and it's sad to see things falling apart like this AND it's sad to see the desperation coming from her campaign lately. Even if she manages to win the nomination, I really don't think she can beat McCain.

I wonder what Tom Buffenbarger thinks about Hill's new fundraising campaign to get 100 people to donate $100,000 EACH. Me thinks there are likely a lot of 'trust fund babies' who would be donating for her.

That just sounds like a really stupid thing to say on his part, imo.

[gayle]

REALLY interesting pundit thoughts in this weeks Time magazine, regarding rhetoric VS action.

I would highly reccomend reading it.

In particular, Joe Kleins thoughts

I will quote the headline..
"Inspiration VS. substance. Obama's flights of rhetoric are the stuff of legend. But Clinton simply knows more."

That one statement propably sums up why, I hope and pray that Hillary gets our nomination. She is a seasoned veteran, and as smart as it gets. She is trusted, by both parties, as being able to make decisions, moderately.

I love what Barack represents. I love his message, and his speaking ability( which he has cleverly sinqued to sound exactly like MLK (good move!!)

I believe in him as an idealist. I believe in him as a future President.

I don't believe that Barack is the best candiate for THIS election.


For those who need to know, I WILL support Obama, I just think we have a better choice right now, and I will support her until it's over.

[PG-rated]

I'm not interested in getting into Obama v. Hillary. But here's some stuff from my LJ:

1. Honestly, I'm pretty moderate politically. I've heard people say she's too far right for them, but not for me. And she's very dedicated to the Democratic Party, so I feel confident that she'll always do what's right for the party when push comes to shove.

2. I love her background and experience. She really has spent her life fighting to improve the country. Plus, the world is a difficult place right now, and I want the next President to have the easiest learning curve possible. Whatever you may think about how relevant the experience of being First Lady is, the fact remains that living in the shadow of the President gives you a good understanding of how things work in the Executive Branch. And eight years in the Senate isn't too shabby, either.

3. She's learned from her time in national politics. George Stephanopoulos wrote in his Clinton-years memoir that she refused to listen to political experts when developing her health care plan, and wrote a plan that was idealistic but wasn't viable politically. But by most accounts, she's learned to get along in the Senate - she now knows how things get done, and I think that she'll use her combined experience from both branches to make things happen.

4. Is she "cold"? "Unlikeable"? Really, who knows? And more importantly, who cares? If you're voting for the person you'd want to have a beer with over the person who could handle a harrowing global situation, maybe you should calculate the odds of the former vs. the latter situation actually happening.

5. Yeah, I'll say it: Given two candidates that I consider to be relatively equally matched, I'll choose the woman. It just so happens that I like her better than Obama anyway, but if I liked them the same, she'd still get my vote.

And then there are these two articles, which can speak for me:
Goodbye to all that #2 (http://www.womensmediacenter.com/ex/020108.html)
Me? I support Hillary Rodham because she’s the best qualified of all candidates running in both parties. I support her because her progressive politics are as strong as her proven ability to withstand what will be a massive right-wing assault in the general election. I support her because she knows how to get us out of Iraq. I support her because she’s refreshingly thoughtful, and I’m bloodied from eight years of a jolly “uniter” with ejaculatory politics. I needn’t agree with her on every point. I agree with the 97 percent of her positions that are identical with Obama’s—and the few where hers are both more practical and to the left of his (like health care). I support her because she’s already smashed the first-lady stereotype and made history as a fine senator, because I believe she will continue to make history not only as the first US woman president, but as a great US president.

As for the “woman thing”?

Me, I’m voting for Hillary not because she’s a woman—but because I am.

And The Obama Delusion (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/19/AR2008021902336.html?sub=AR)

Political candidates routinely indulge in exaggeration, pandering, inconsistency and self-serving obscuration. Clinton and McCain do. The reason for holding Obama to a higher standard is that it's his standard and also his campaign's central theme. He has run on the vague promise of "change," but on issue after issue -- immigration, the economy, global warming -- he has offered boilerplate policies that evade the underlying causes of the stalemates. These issues remain contentious because they involve real conflicts or differences of opinion.

The contrast between his broad rhetoric and his narrow agenda is stark, and yet the media -- preoccupied with the political "horse race" -- have treated his invocation of "change" as a serious idea rather than a shallow campaign slogan. He seems to have hypnotized much of the media and the public with his eloquence and the symbolism of his life story. The result is a mass delusion that Obama is forthrightly engaging the nation's major problems when, so far, he isn't.

OK, I know I said I wasn't interested in getting into Obama v. Hillary, and then I posted an anti-Obama article. Sorry. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, but I did find it thought-provoking.

[jennylou]

"Inspiration VS. substance. Obama's flights of rhetoric are the stuff of legend. But Clinton simply knows more."

Interesting. But, Bill Clinton isn't the one running for president.

I don't like all the negativity coming from the Hillary campaign.

I wanted another Dem, but he dropped out in January. So, I've sat back and taken it all in the last month. And, I live in Ohio. I made my decision recently and here's how I came to it:

1) Hillary Clinton's campaign went negative. I hate that - especially when we're still in the primaries - way to give your opponent fuel for the fire in the general.
2) Obama and Clinton both have great ideas, but he's got excitement behind those ideas.
3) I'm so sick of the same old, same old. We're finishing up 8 years of GWB, before that 8 years of Bill Clinton, before that 4 of GHB. Frankly, I don't want to see the Clinton's back in the White House right now - we need some new blood.

So, yeah, I'm voting for Obama.

[gayle]

Read the article Jennylou. There is not one mention of Bill in it.


The Clinton, Klein refers to is Hillary. 100%

[jennylou]

oops, I totally read "but Bill Clinton knows more". When I reread the title, there wasn't a Bill, only a but. :o

[ThreeYell]

I'm so sick of the same old, same old. We're finishing up 8 years of GWB, before that 8 years of Bill Clinton, before that 4 of GHB. Frankly, I don't want to see the Clinton's back in the White House right now - we need some new blood.

This is probably the biggest issue for me. I just don't think it's good for the country to have the presidency remain in the hands of the same two families for 28 years.

[TwnklToes80]

Great clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2Om-c9IMjw) from the debate the other night.

At this point, I'm just so sick of the republicans ruling the world, I'm ready to see a strong democratic leader. If that ends up being Obama, I certainly think he has the ability to do it. But right now, my vote is still with Hill

[Julss05]

I was going to vote for Edwards but after he dropped out that left me searching. What differences there are between Clinton and Obama I side with Clinton. She seems to have a more realistic approach, only promsing what she knows she can deliver which I admire. While Obama on the other hand has a lot of great ideas think he will fall short of those promises not because of unwillingness but red tape once in office. If you're undecided between the two I think CNN online has a recap of their answers from the debate last night.

[ihearttx]

I saw this last night on SNL and was like YOU GO Tina Fey!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=te4wEEklslY

[kendriln]

I think that it's interesting that her most poignant moment appears to be "lifted"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0sjnKeEH7c

[phoenics]

I think that it's interesting that her most poignant moment appears to be "lifted"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0sjnKeEH7c

I really find it astounding that she chose to run with the 'you plagiarized' angle against Obama - knowing - KNOWING she lifted excerpts from John Edwards and Bill Clinton. Bill, I'm sure she had permission to use his words... but John Edwards?

Even still - you'd think she'd have left it alone.

I wonder if the press will be all over her for this one. Isn't she supposed to be smarter than this?

She's supposed to be a lot of things - but that's my main issue. She's not living up to what she's supposed to be.

[Delta]

As for Hillary's about-face from the debate to this weekend - I agree that it's a sign of a campaign with no direction. It's painful to watch.

eta: I KNOW she's smarter than this... I know her husband is smarter than this... I know the people associated with her campaign are smarter than this. What's happening Hils??Maybe they are dead tired and punch drunk:

Morale is low. After 13 months of dawn-to-dark seven-day weeks, the staff is exhausted. Some have taken to going home early � 9 p.m. � turning off their BlackBerrys, and polishing off bottles of wine, several senior staff members said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/24/us/politics/24mood.html?em&ex=1204002000&en=c62911af64f6b4a5&ei=5087

(The article linked above is from the NYT today and pretty much says everything we've already discussed here. We should be NYT reporters.)

[Delta]

The Bill angle is so interesting to me. It seems that after years of not campaigning nationally, he's lost his edge. He screwed up so many times these past few months. People are so used to thinking of Bill - much more so than of Hillary - as one of the most masterful politicians around. So I think at first people suspected some sort of master plan behind his first few gaffes that would ultimately reveal itself once she emerged victorious. I know I kind of did. But it turns out that he was simply flailing against the outstanding campaign run by the Ubercandidate, Barack Obama. Obama is the politician Bill's always wished he could be. And perhaps could have been - to a greater extent at least - if he'd kept his pants on. Bill started getting much more prickly towards him after the video came out in which Obama talks about Reagan being transformational, as opposed to Clinton who was, by implication, gasp - ORDINARY!

[JustVita]

I've always liked the Clintons. Loved Bill. He was the first President I voted for. I would have been happy to vote for Hillary Clinton if she were the nominee come November and if for some reason she indeed is, I will still vote for her. My question though, and it's not snarky, is are Hillary supporters in any way disappointed in her and her campaign? I don't like the tone of it at all.

From Julss05
She seems to have a more realistic approach, only promsing what she knows she can deliver which I admire. While Obama on the other hand has a lot of great ideas think he will fall short of those promises not because of unwillingness but red tape once in office.

For me, what's important is that a candidate fight like hell to fulfill his campaign "promises", however I don't necessarily fault them if they've done everything they can to make it happen and it doesn't, because in reality, with the exception of the President's veto (which can be overridden), congress ultimately makes it happen. My point is Hillary can't promise what she "knows she can deliver" anymore than any candidate can ultimately. I can see your point if a candidate were being utterly ridiculous in their promises, but I don't think that's the case with Obama.

I want to see someone elected who I feel strives to do the right thing. I realize that the "right thing" is different for everyone, but with regards to Obama, I feel he will. I feel he has the ability to listen, to reason, to inspire. Also, I think with that ability to reason, if he deviates in any way from expectations it will be with good reason. Reasoning that can be laid out for the American public to evaluate. I think he is committed to his beliefs, but not so stubborn, that he can't learn a thing or two.

[Delta]

Oh yeah, I was wondering about that myself. What are the more realistic elements of Hillary's plans as opposed to Obama's? The general consensus, I think, is that Obama's health care plan is much more realistic than hers (due to the mandate issue.) And Hillary's plan to freeze mortgage interest rates for 5 years and halt foreclosures for 90 days is absolutely laughable. I'm surprised that doesn't get more attention, actually.

[kendriln]

And Hillary's plan to freeze mortgage interest rates for 5 years and halt foreclosures for 90 days is absolutely laughable. I'm surprised that doesn't get more attention, actually.

I agree... very interesting. However, it gets lots of attention in my living room, what with DH screaming at the TV everytime she mentions it. :rolleyes:

[phoenics]

I agree... very interesting. However, it gets lots of attention in my living room, what with DH screaming at the TV everytime she mentions it. :rolleyes:

I got a really funny visual from that, lol.

[Dally]

Me, too!

Hillary's statement hasn't got me screaming, but it does have me shaking my head. It's a ridiculous thing to propose and I suspect would do more harm then good.

[kendriln]

Curious for HRC supporters --

At what point is she doing too much?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/02/25/2008-02-25_obama_campaign_accuses_clinton_camp_in_p.html

[phoenics]

Curious for HRC supporters --

At what point is she doing too much?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/02/25/2008-02-25_obama_campaign_accuses_clinton_camp_in_p.html

I officially hate Hill's guts. I've worn things like this. I also own a daishiki and my family wears traditional African dress on the regular and I'm Christian. Ugh - the racially ignorant undertones coming from her campaign really bother me.

What a colossal BITCH! Oh and I see that she's latched onto the 'we didn't authorize the distribution of this photo' crap and the distancing stuff AGAIN.

Oh! I can't stand her right now!

[JustVita]

Curious for HRC supporters --

At what point is she doing too much?

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/02/25/2008-02-25_obama_campaign_accuses_clinton_camp_in_p.html

Wow! There are no words.

[kendriln]

Coming back to add, I don't know who circulated the picture -- some will accuse conservatives, some will accuse Obama, all I know is that as of now her camp isn't denying it.

At the end of the day, I'm so not proud of my country right now :(

[kendriln]

Jack Nicholson's Hillary ad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mOa3sXjqE4

[Delta]

So, assuming Clinton loses OH and TX by 5-10+ points (or by tens of delegates in the case of Texas*) what do you think she's going to do?

My feeling is that she will leave the race within 24-48 hours. I don't think she's going risk being asked to leave by an emissary in the form of Richardson or whatever. I think despite her reputation for wanting to win at all costs, she also does not want to completely ruin her reputation within the party by taking it much farther. She could have a good career in the Senate. (Or, less likely, she could also be looking at 2012 should Obama lose in November.) Probably her big supporters and campaign aides want her to keep going but they stand to benefit career-wise. I think that enough time has passed that she's getting used to the fact that she's not going to be POTUS (at least, not as of Jan 20 2009) and she's going to be able to make a gracious exit.

What do you guys think?

*Obama's organization here is amazing. His campaign benefits enormously from motivated and enthusiastic volunteers. I live in one of the most Republican counties in Texas (although probably in the most liberal area of that county) and I've gotten a flyer in the mail every day for the past few days with instructions about how to vote in the D primary/caucus. And we had a visitor today but we were gone (they left a door hanger thing.) We've haven't gotten any calls but we don't have a land line, either. We haven't seen a thing from Clinton.

[ihearttx]

Delta-where are you in Texas? I am in Dallas and have gotten zero from either candidate. However, I have gotten phone calls every day! I can't wait for Tuesday!!

[jennylou]

We're in Ohio. I got some stuff from Obama this last week and DH has been getting negative Hillary ads for the last two weeks.

[katmg]

I've gotten probably 4 fliers in the mail about the voting process here (our very confusing primary and then caucus nonsense) all from Obama. I've gotten multiple phone calls - probably 1 or 2 a day for Obama, none for Clinton and several for other Republican races.

I don't know if Clinton will be able to bow out gracefully - I see her as wanting to fight tooth and nail for this. I even read rumors about possible litigation due to the way Texas votes. I'm hoping it won't turn messy but with Florida and Michigan, superdelegates, etc. I think it could get ugly.

[meganth]

I think it could get ugly.

It will only get ugly if Hillary makes it ugly. IMO that would not be a good move for her.

[cosmic]

That's what they're saying on CNN right now. Veddy interesting stuff...

[miaclear]

Delta-where are you in Texas? I am in Dallas and have gotten zero from either candidate. However, I have gotten phone calls every day! I can't wait for Tuesday!!

I'm in Dallas and have gotten a few fliers from Obama. A door to door visit from an Obama representative. And phone calls from Obama....well not him personally ;) All I've seen from Hillary are a few television ads. And I'm so glad I don't have to see that damn telephone ad again. It drives me crazy!

[cosmic]

Clinton wins. Now what?

By NEDRA PICKLER, Associated Press Writer
Wed Mar 5, 3:12 AM ET

WASHINGTON - Congratulations, Hillary Rodham Clinton. You did what your husband said you had to do and won Ohio and Texas.

Now what?

"Tonight we won three out of four contests and began a new chapter in this historical campaign," the victorious Clinton told reporters on her campaign plane.

But even if she wins every contest left, Clinton still would have a hard time overcoming Barack Obama's pledged delegate lead. In fact, her task got even harder because even though she won Texas, Ohio and Rhode Island Tuesday night, she didn't do much to close the delegate gap — and with every contest that passes, the number up for grabs drops.

Obama focused on the math while addressing supporters in Texas. "We have nearly the same delegate lead as we did this morning and we are on our way to winning this nomination," he said.

Clinton's best hope is to try to rack up big margins in the spring contests. Even her own advisers acknowledge Obama will probably win the two other states left this month — Wyoming on Saturday and Mississippi next Tuesday. If she is able to continue turning voters against Obama in the races after that, she could plausibly clinch the nomination by persuading superdelegates to back her.

It won't be easy.

Her success Tuesday night came after she put a series of hits on Obama. She ran TV ads that questioned his foreign policy credentials — one that pointed out he didn't call hearings on the fight against terrorists in Afghanistan and another fear-inducing piece that depicted her as the best candidate to handle an international crisis that erupts at 3 a.m. when your children are asleep.

Her campaign tried to raise more questions about Obama's connections to an indicted fundraiser as he went on the trail. Clinton said Obama tried to pull the old "wink-wink" by talking tough on free trade in Ohio while secretly reassuring Canadians that he is no protectionist.

"He needs to figure out a way to respond quicker without being trapped into sort of the politics of squabbling," said Democratic consultant Jenny Backus. "She slowed him down tonight by throwing a bunch of inside the beltway arguments over him, and it took him a day too long to get out from underneath it."

With seven weeks until Pennsylvania, there's plenty of time for the race to get even uglier.

And if the race drags on, it may not just be Clinton. Even as he was ahead with 11 straight wins leading into Tuesday, Obama made some of his toughest critiques yet of Clinton, and those are only likely to increase as he tries to force her out of the race.

"They need to run their own race, but they need to be able to turn the focus back to her," Backus said.

[tenofcups]

Any Clinton supporters still on this board? I see a thriving Obama thread, but was shocked that there was no positive talk of her victory tonight. I live in PA so it's obviously huge here, but it's pretty big news no matter where you live. Anyone...?

[gayle]

Yep, I'm still here.

Truth is I will support whoever gets the nomination, but I am still hoping there is a chance that will be Hillary.

[Anna Low]

I'm still here. I generally now avoid the politics thread, as I just get weary of some of the sanctimonious tones.

And naturally, I'm thrilled with her Pennsylvania victory!

[tenofcups]

Glad there's at least a few of us! I went looking last night because I was so excited about the PA victory and all I could find was the Obama thread, which was pretty disheartening.

She's my first choice and I thought I would be ok if she didn't get it and he did, but last night really clarified to me how very much I want her to win! I'd love to see a Clinton/Obama ticket. I think that actually would be unbeatable.

And I finally put my money where my mouth is and gave her a big donation last night too. I don't know why I didn't think of it before.

[ihearttx]

I'm here!

[kedzieb]

I'd be happy with either, which is apparently frowned upon here.

[gayle]

I'd be happy with either, which is apparently frowned upon here.

Of late, it certainly does seem to be frowned on. The hostile attitudes really don't help anything.

I have admiration for both candidates. I think Obama has alot to offer, but the truth of it is, I don't think he can beat McCain, whereas I do think Hilary can. I know alot of moderate Republicans who will come out for Hil, but won't for Obama, why? They see him as too much of an idealist with an unrealistic sense of what he can actually do. The most important objective as I see it is to beat McCain.

Again, I like both Obama and Clinton and will support either. But, at the same time, I find the nastiness towards Hilary completely unecessary and unwarranted.

[Anna Low]

Gayle, I think you really hit the nail on the head for me. It is the complete disrespect, outright hatred and nastiness that is directed Hillary's direction by the Obama supporters that bothers me so much. So much so that it turned me against him. It reminds me of how blindly the reupublicans followed Bush down the primrose path to crazytown. If she isn't nominated, I would rather see McCain win, not because I like him or think he will be of any help to this country, but in hopes that Obama's supporters will shut up and go away.

[ajb524]

I feel the same way as Gayle :). I'm really hoping Hillary pulls through.

[EJH]

Huge Hillary supporter here.

I dislike Obama more and more.

[gayle]

I don't dislike Obama. In fact, I like him alot. But the anger that has come out of late among some of his supporters is REALLY distasteful, and does nothing IMHO to promote his cause.

[tenofcups]

I've been shocked at the vitriol I've been reading in the Obama thread against Hillary. I know they're two different candidates, but their views on the issues are awfully similar. I prefer hers, but I can live with his. I don't see where all the hatred stems from, but it's giving me a sour taste for him and his supporters.

[gayle]

I've been shocked at the vitriol I've been reading in the Obama thread against Hillary. I know they're two different candidates, but their views on the issues are awfully similar. I prefer hers, but I can live with his. I don't see where all the hatred stems from, but it's giving me a sour taste for him and his supporters.

Right there with ya! I find it interesting that these same people, if Obama were not in the race, would be supporting Hilary full-steam-ahead. I do not understand the anger and vitriol.

Heck get angry at the Bushite Republicans, not other Democratic candidates who basically have the same policy stance as your prefferred candidate.

[Dally]

I prefer Obama to Clinton, but I agree that the hatred is souring me on the whole thing. They are very similar candidates in their views. I think the bad feelings between the two camps are making the Republicans very happy.

I wish the candidates wouldn't be negative, but I actually hate it more when supporters are. I feel like I don't belong anywhere anymore because I don't hate any of the candidates. Do we really have to hate the other guy in order to like our own?

[gayle]

You summed up my feelings well Dally.

We need to be thinking unity, ragardless of who gets the nomination. The hostility does not help to generate unity.

[cosmic]

It helps if the candidate doesn't drum up the hostility. What makes the negative attacks OK? I really want to know. And what makes it wrong of Democrats to say it makes it hard for us to vote for you when you tear down our candidate instead of the Republican who's running? The negativity started with her. So why be angry at people who say they don't like it? Isn't that what you're saying, too?

[Dally]

I'm not angry. Just, like I said, kind of soured on the whole thing. I'm looking forward to the general election and hoping to recapture some of the positivity and excitement.

For me, when a candidate says negative things, I might shake my head, but generally I ignore it. I don't get all up in arms about it because it's just crap. I know this is wishful thinking, but I'd like it if the candidates quit with the negativity all together. But as long as people listen to it, they won't. That's the thing, until we all start ignoring the negativity, they'll keep dishing it out (and the media--the effing media--will keep running with it).

[JustVita]

I'm posting this here in hopes of someone offering me insight. No snark intended, but I see them as legitimate questions. I've posted in the Democrats '08 thread and as part of a larger post in the Obama thread. I'm really curious.

* Here's my question to Hillary supporters...How could you feel comfortable with Hillary getting the nomination? I mean, in your minds, how does this sit well with you. Obviously, her supporters see her as the best candidate, but how would her getting the nod be any different really than the Bush/Gore debacle, which every Democrat worth their weight had a problem with and rightfully so. Yes, I realize the two are different (the popular vote in Florida versus the popular vote of the people and Superdelegates representing the people's will). Why would that be okay? BTW, I realize Superdelegates aren't obligated to vote as the people have, but is that not their purpose? And what a fallout it'll be if they don't. So, while we're talking about what's good for the Democratic party, how does this qualify? How does her still running qualify?

* To add more to that, How is it okay for her to say that Obama is disenfranchising the voters of Michigan and Florida, but then expect the Superdelegates to make it happen for her? Does that not disenfranchise voters if Superdelegates decide this nomination against the popular vote? Did she not initially agree to Florida and Michigan primaries not being counted per the DNC? Wasn't not until after she saw she wasn't going to lock up the nomination following Super Tuesday that she was so concerned about voters being disenfranchised? If that's your stand, stand for it when it's not convenient for you.

* At what point, with respect to what's good for the party, do her supporters look to her to drop out?

Also, as an obvious Obama supporter, I don't think many people dislike Clinton solely because it's Obama she's attacking, but more the perceived gall she has in seeking this nomination. What she's doing, in my opinion, is not good for the party.

[phoenics]

I'm not angry. Just, like I said, kind of soured on the whole thing. I'm looking forward to the general election and hoping to recapture some of the positivity and excitement.

For me, when a candidate says negative things, I might shake my head, but generally I ignore it. I don't get all up in arms about it because it's just crap. I know this is wishful thinking, but I'd like it if the candidates quit with the negativity all together. But as long as people listen to it, they won't. That's the thing, until we all start ignoring the negativity, they'll keep dishing it out (and the media--the effing media--will keep running with it).

But we won't stop listening to the negativity (i.e., lies) and many people don't do the background research and the like. They just listen to the negativity and we end up with presidents like Bush.

I just think it speaks poorly of a person if they can't win without going negative. It feels like not playing fair. Sure - other governments and the like may not play fair - but I thought we were supposed to be better than that.

[mar5195]

I agree with you all and the negativity. But I really feel like this is politics and it's just par for the course. I just don't see this as anything we as a voting public can change. I think in some primal way we all like to see the muck being thrown. But at this point it's a little tiring and annoying as hell.

As far as Hillary being attacked, I really think she is showing her true colors in the way she responds. She's been pretty good at just dismissing the claims of Obama & Mc Cain. Her husband really concerns me cause he's like an attack dog in her defense. Some days I want to shout at my computer screen or TV "Bill, shut up!".

[PG-rated]

BTW, I realize Superdelegates aren't obligated to vote as the people have, but is that not their purpose?
Actually, no, it's not their purpose. The superdelegate system was specifically enacted to prevent a "dark horse" candidate who couldn't win in the general from grabbing the nomination in a popular vote. The point of the superdelegates is to give "party elders" a heavily weighted voice in the nomination. Is this undemocratic? Sure. But by appealing to the superdelegates in hopes that they'll choose her as the more electable candidate, Hillary is using the system for its intended purpose. So you can argue that it's wrong for the system to be set up this way, but I don't think you can argue that it's wrong for her to be following this path. The path was set up for candidates like her.

[PG-rated]

I wish the candidates wouldn't be negative, but I actually hate it more when supporters are. I feel like I don't belong anywhere anymore because I don't hate any of the candidates. Do we really have to hate the other guy in order to like our own?
I feel the same way. I note that the people who accuse Hillary of tearing the party apart are often the sources of the most negative comments.

[cosmic]

Actually HRC has been the source of the negativity. You can look at posts just a few months ago and see that nearly all of us still liked her and had NO negativity toward he. SHE is the source.

[Niobe]

Actually, no, it's not their purpose. The superdelegate system was specifically enacted to prevent a "dark horse" candidate who couldn't win in the general from grabbing the nomination in a popular vote. The point of the superdelegates is to give "party elders" a heavily weighted voice in the nomination. Is this undemocratic? Sure. But by appealing to the superdelegates in hopes that they'll choose her as the more electable candidate, Hillary is using the system for its intended purpose. So you can argue that it's wrong for the system to be set up this way, but I don't think you can argue that it's wrong for her to be following this path. The path was set up for candidates like her.

Wasn't the theory behind it that communications at the time weren't very good, leaving people in more remote, rural areas incapable of properly accessing the candidates? Also, with consideration for the lower level of education amongst these groups, and the urban poor, as well?

With that in mind, isn't the way Hillary is trying to use the system in our modern era of widespread education and information availability rather insulting to the intelligence of voters? 200 years ago, ignorance was literal and a real concern for the fledgling democratic government. But to play the same card today could be taken as insinuation that the voters can't be trusted to make their own best judgments.

[Ellyn]

I am a Hillary supporter...and also tired of the negativity but agree with this:
I really feel like this is politics and it's just par for the course
I try to ignore most of it, and really, I've chosen who I've chose (for a variety of reasons) and feel like I wouldn't "switch sides" at this point because someone tells me they don't like her and lists the reasons why. To me it's like going into the pro-Republican thread and trying to convince them to vote Democrat. No, I'm not saying "can't we all just get along"...everyone has a right to their opinion...I'm just saying that I won't be changing mine - unless it is changed for me - I'm a Democrat and I will surely vote for Obama in November if he is the candidate.
Do we really have to hate the other guy in order to like our own?
Are those Obama supporters on here saying they would not vote for HRC in Nov if Obama does not win the nomination? (I'm asking seriously and not being snarky)

[tenofcups]

Niobe: The concept of superdelegate was just introduced in the '80s. It doesn't go back to the origins of the parties -- it's relatively new and as PG-Rated noted, their purpose is actually to have a mechanism to go against the will of the people, odd as that may sound!

I don't claim to be an expert -- I just started reading up on it last week when I realized I had no idea what they were. I'm not going to try to explain how they came about because I'd just be parroting the web sites I read, but it's interesting if you want to google it and check out a few sites.

From what I can tell, and as PG-Rated noted, the current system seems to be designed to allow candidates like Clinton to get the vote even if they don't have the majority. So she's working it exactly as it was intended to be worked.

Regardless of who gets the nomination, I wouldn't be surprised if we see calls for reform in how the Democrats choose our delegates in the future.

[nylons73]

Niobe: The concept of superdelegate was just introduced in the '80s. It doesn't go back to the origins of the parties -- it's relatively new and as PG-Rated noted, their purpose is actually to have a mechanism to go against the will of the people, odd as that may sound!

I don't claim to be an expert -- I just started reading up on it last week when I realized I had no idea what they were. I'm not going to try to explain how they came about because I'd just be parroting the web sites I read, but it's interesting if you want to google it and check out a few sites.

From what I can tell, and as PG-Rated noted, the current system seems to be designed to allow candidates like Clinton to get the vote even if they don't have the majority. So she's working it exactly as it was intended to be worked.

Regardless of who gets the nomination, I wouldn't be surprised if we see calls for reform in how the Democrats choose our delegates in the future.

You are right. The Superdelegates were installed into the process after the Democrats ended up with candidates like George McGovern (1972) who were representative of the far, far left of the party. McGovern lost miserably. The Democrats realized that they needed a 'check' on the left-wing of the party because they produce candidates that 'mainstream' America had no interest in electing. Gary Hart thought he was going to be the candidate in 1984, until the Supers overturned his lead and gave the nomination to the 'grey beard' Walter Mondale. Mondale won only 2 states. Great job Supers! ha ha :rolleyes:

Hillary is using the system just as it was intended. The problem I, and many other Democrats have with Hillary's premise is that she doesn't seem to care about the party as a whole. That's her perogative. But - as many people have pointed out, an 'overturned' decision would cause a major uproar and divsion in the party. She has to know the effect of Obama going into the convention with the most delegates and coming out of it without the nomination. She is willing to stick in the race and 'work the supers' even if it means another 1968 in Denver. (google 1968 Democratic Convention Chicago if you are shaky on just what happened there.)

She has every right to work the system to get the nomination. And, it seems to me that she WILL get the nomination now (after Rev. Wright's antics yesterday) at the cost of party unity. I don't know how Democrats manage to screw this up every.single.year. Sigh

[phoenics]

Are those Obama supporters on here saying they would not vote for HRC in Nov if Obama does not win the nomination? (I'm asking seriously and not being snarky)

I think that's been answered before in this thread, but no, I haven't seen that evidenced in this thread, though I have seen it in the other direction.

[gayle]

God Bless her and it's about time she stepped aside.

I still believe in her. I still believe she has a tremendous amount to offer this country.

I remember her college commencement speech, and remember the woman who has SO much to offer our country.

I pray Barack doesn't forget how much in-road, she made, and how much that paved the way for his candidacy.

[Anna Low]

I think this is the saddest day for the democratic party. We had a chance to pick someone who could actually lead us beyond the Bush mess and what the dems do? They pick BHO - a paper doll with just enough experience to fill up a post it note. Hopefully this lousy move has finally made his wife, Bitter Betty, "proud". I know I'm sure not.

[PinkMartini]

I think this is the saddest day for the democratic party. We had a chance to pick someone who could actually lead us beyond the Bush mess and what the dems do? They pick BHO - a paper doll with just enough experience to fill up a post it note. Hopefully this lousy move has finally made his wife, Bitter Betty, "proud". I know I'm sure not.

I couldn't agree more - as a republican. I actually think I would've voted for HRC over McCain but I might just not vote this election.

[Anna Low]

I'm a democrat and would sooner die than cast a vote for BHO. I want desperately to vote for McCain as protest, but am not sure I can bring myself to do that. So, after being president-less for 8 years, I'm looking at at least another 4 more.

[BrownEyedGirl]

I'm a democrat and would sooner die than cast a vote for BHO. I want desperately to vote for McCain as protest, but am not sure I can bring myself to do that. So, after being president-less for 8 years, I'm looking at at least another 4 more.

Why do you dispise Obama so much?

(I am being sincere, I would like to hear what you say, there is nothing but sincere curiosity behind my post)

[phoenics]

I'm a democrat and would sooner die than cast a vote for BHO. I want desperately to vote for McCain as protest, but am not sure I can bring myself to do that. So, after being president-less for 8 years, I'm looking at at least another 4 more.

To help me understand, can you explain what you love about Hillary Clinton so much? Is it her stance on the issues? Because if it is, then good news! She and Obama are practically the same on the issues!

So you CAN have it all and vote for the Democratic Nominee!

;)

If your like of Hillary isn't based on her stance on the issues, then I don't know what to tell you other than I'm sorry you're feeling blue about all of this and I hope you'll feel better soon.

[nylons73]

I think this is the saddest day for the democratic party. We had a chance to pick someone who could actually lead us beyond the Bush mess and what the dems do? They pick BHO - a paper doll with just enough experience to fill up a post it note. Hopefully this lousy move has finally made his wife, Bitter Betty, "proud". I know I'm sure not.

I am sick and tired of everyone telling the Obama supporters that we have to 'reach out' and 'be nice' to Hillary supporters when they continue to write stuff like you just did.

Yesterday was the "saddest day for the Democratic party." ???? The party nominates an African-American, 45 years after many AAs couldn't even VOTE in this country freely and this is the 'saddest day?" Sadder than the death of FDR? Sadder than the assassination of JFK? Sadder than the assassination of his brother Bobby, just after he won the California Primary? Sadder than finding out that our beloved Teddy, who has led the party for so many years, has been diagnosed with a malignant brain tumor? Sadder than losing the Gore/Bush election in 2000 because of a stacked Supreme Court (and some dirty goings-on with Jeb Bush and Katharine Harris in FL?)

All of these things I mentioned are, in your opinion, LESS sad than Barack Obama becoming the democratic party's nominee? President Kennedy's funeral was marked by many days of morning by a shaken country. His little boy John-John silently saluted the coffin as it went by. Kennedy's widow, Jackie marched, grief striken, behind her husband's coffin, accompained by John's brother Bobby and leaders from all over the free world. But YET, you contend, that Barack Obama's historic accomplishment is the 'saddest day' for the party? Are you out of your mind?

How do you account for the fact that Hills graduated at the bottom of her law school class at Yale, while Barack was the first black president of the Harvard Law Review? Do you really think all he can do is "flip up a post it note?" Last time I checked Harvard Law was the toughest in the country. Obama clearly didn't get where he is today by having no more intelligence than to 'flip up a post-it note.' That statement makes absolutely no sense.

Now Bush, he's someone I can see tagged with the 'post-it note' comment (whatever it means.)

I won't go into my long, factual, historical review of how the least experienced president ever elected was Abraham Lincoln (#1 of all time on most people's lists) and the MOST experienced president ever elected was James Buchanan (#43 out of 43 of all time on most people's lists) but let's just say, "experience" has no bearing on how a president actually does his job. I have about 2 more pages of commentary about that but I'll stop.

Calling the future first lady of this country 'Bitter Betty' is no better than calling Pres. Clinton 'Adulterer Bill.' (of course the latter of these monikers is true and the former is false, but that's neither here nor there.)

I'm ready. Bring it on. I'm all done being 'nice' to Hillary people. I'm sickened and I am sick and tired of her and every single person who continues to act like this is a wake instead of a wonderful wonderful celebration.

[pocket]

Oh now, nylons, let them have their wake. It doesn’t make any sense to me, but some people just like Hilary. I could go on and on about her, but who cares any more. It’s over. We know that anyone with an ounce of sense is going to happily eat a big helping of crow with a nice side of their own words when they cast their vote for Barack Obama in November. Just as I would have eaten a big helping of my own words when I voted for her in November if she had won. Good thing – I hate being wrong even more than I love being right. He’s a phenomenon – step up or step aside.

[ihearttx]

Nylons--she said FILL UP a post it note. Just wanted to clarify. She didn't say "FLIP".

[Kate&Joey]

nylons73: I definitely think this was uncalled for. I've been lurking in the Obama thread from the beginning out of curiosity (I'll readily admit to being a fiscal conservative). Although I've read numerous derisive comments about HRC, Bush, Republicans, etc., I decided not to derail the thread that supported Obama by defending the groups that the posters in that thread chose to attack. However, you thought it was fine and dandy to do the opposite in the HRC thread.

[Anna Low]

I don't despise the guy.

I don't believe he has the knowledge or experience to lead this country. He has yet to articulate to my satisfaction how he plans to execute such "change" and that is incredibly frightening to me as someone who believes that our country is in terribly bad shape. Pep rallies don't cut it. I don't believe in his so-called "change". And admittedly, much of my distaste has come from what I perceive as the media cramming him down the proverbial throat of the democrats. I don't believe that both candidates were treated fairly in the press - his missteps have been laughed off and Hillary has been repeatedly crucified for pretty much anything beyond breathing. I personally feel "disenfranchised" as a voter and "marginalized" as a college educated female who feels chastised for not living up to my demographic, although I detest those trite and tired descriptions. And lastly, I am sick to death of the sanctimonious tones used to describe BHO by his supporters - I cannot fathom having to listen to that drivel past November.

[cynder]

I'm a democrat and would sooner die than cast a vote for BHO. I want desperately to vote for McCain as protest, but am not sure I can bring myself to do that. So, after being president-less for 8 years, I'm looking at at least another 4 more.

To each his own. I would have voted for Hillary if she was the nominee though I personally can't stand her as a person. What I am wondering is how you, as a Democrat, are okay with handing over your vote to a Republican candidate who is going to have a significant say in shaping the Supreme Court for the next few decades and who will decide how (or geez, even if) we withdraw from Iraq.

I am seriously asking because I really want to understand this mindset. I have no problem if you want to disparage BHO because I equally disparaged HRC, so fair game.

The really sad part is the Clinton of the last few weeks (well minus the RFK comment) acted the smart woman she always was. I wish she had run her campaign like that the whole time.

ETA - Thanks for your explanation, Anna. All that being said, you still would vote for McCain?

[Red'sGirl]

I am really saddened at the tone and turn of this supposedly Democratic party.

As a HRC supporter for much of the early campaign, I knew that - whichever candidate won the nomination, I would support, because 1) they hold many of the same policies, and 2) I love my country too much to leave it in the hands of someone that I am so opposed. In the last several months, I have lost my love of HRC. BUT, IF she had won the nomination in any kind of upstanding and true way, while I might have been disappointed for my candidate, I would stand by the party that best reflects my ideals. To do otherwise says to me that my ideals are as flimsy as the waving of a "post-it note" in the breeze.

What further saddens me is the pointed use of BHO - the emphasis on Hussein is clearly meant to be pointed and therefore is a nasty commentary to where minds and hearts really are. I know it's useless to mention that at the time Obama was named, there was no negative connotation to his middle name. Just like there were some unfortunate Germans with the first name Adolph - didn't make them Nazi war criminals.

Really, I think HRC supporters deserve some time to lick their wounds and mourn their candidate (I've been doing that for months now). But then I ask you all WHO ARE YOU REALLY?? Are you willing to cut off our collective noses to spite our face? Do you care about this country? IF you believe that he doesn't have the experience, so be it. But he IS going for the job, so instead of sitting back and hoping/waiting for him to fall - or even HELPING him to fail, you COULD be bigger, and try to help him to better this country. At least his heart is in the right place, and we haven't been able to say THAT in over a decade.

Honestly, WHO DO YOU WANT TO BE, AND WHAT COUNTRY DO YOU WANT TO LIVE IN? Is this the lesson we teach our children? If you can't win, then take your ball and go home so no one else can play?

This might, indeed, be the saddest day for the Democratic Party, but it has little to do with our nominee and more to do with the spirit and lack of fortitude of the people within the party.

Flame me if you will, but I am not throwing Obama in your face as a ha-ha. I just want to know who the people are in this party that I'm fighting so hard to make this world better for? I'm starting to doubt our own humanity and I worry for my children at teh kind of people they will meet in their lives. I had hoped for better.

[Anna Low]

Thanks Kate&Joey. I'm probably the last HRC supporter around here who hasn't been chased away.

Cynder, I just don't know if I can bring myself to pull the McCain lever. I dislike him just as much.

At this point, I'm just so discouraged that I don't know if I'll even vote at all. Clearly, my vote doesn't count for anything, so why waste the time or gas to go through the motions. Either way, the story ends the same.

[kedzieb]

i liked Hilary too, but will happily be voting for Barack in the Fall. Their views are so similar it's hard for me to understand the antipathy between supporters.

I do think Hillary would be foolish to accept the VP nod. VP is such a low-power position - if I were her I'd hope for a high level cabinet appointment! Even staying senator of NY is probably a more powerful job than VP.

[kedzieb]

At this point, I'm just so discouraged that I don't know if I'll even vote at all. Clearly, my vote doesn't count for anything, so why waste the time or gas to go through the motions. Either way, the story ends the same.

I don't understand why you think your vote doesn't count? I voted for Hillary months ago in my primary. It counted. Just now the whole country has voted and more delegates went to Barack. I'm looking forward to voting for him in November.

[shouldaeloped]

I have been following along in here for a while and been keeping my opinions to myself. but when I read this. .

This might, indeed, be the saddest day for the Democratic Party, but it has little to do with our nominee and more to do with the spirit and lack of fortitude of the people within the party.

I had to agree wholeheartedly. I have been saying this whole time that the democratic party was going to mess this up by not rallying behind a candidate. we need to have a democrat in the office and although my vote was and continues to be for BHO, I would have happily voted for HRC if that is what the democratic party chose. if we can't rally behind the ticket that is presented to us, then we have bigger issues and the party should be ashamed for not bringing this to a close sooner so we could all start the acceptance process and get a democrat in the office in November.

[jennylou]

i liked Hilary too, but will happily be voting for Barack in the Fall. Their views are so similar it's hard for me to understand the antipathy between supporters.

I do think Hillary would be foolish to accept the VP nod. VP is such a low-power position - if I were her I'd hope for a high level cabinet appointment! Even staying senator of NY is probably a more powerful job than VP.

Yep, I think high level cabinet position or perhaps Supreme Court? I just don't see HRC wanting to play second fiddle (and there's nothing wrong with that, IMO).

I voted for Obama, and am obviously happy with the outcome. Would I have voted for HRC is she was the nominee - yes. I've said before that I might not be happy about it (would hold my nose, lol), but because I don't want four more years of McSame, I would.

I understand being sad about not getting your candidate (I wanted Edwards for POTUS last time and my vote didn't count in the primary since it was already locked up by the time I voted, lol), although, this election there has been so much more passion for our candidates - let's face it - we had some great ones to choose from! All that said, I know some are frustrated and venting - and I don't want to rub salt in any wounds, but rather, just say that I hope that most of you will find it in your hearts to vote for Obama come November. Heck, I hope you all jump on the bandwagon sooner - and if you do - we'll be waiting, ready to unite as Democrats and take back the White House.

[lunaria]

nylons73: I definitely think this was uncalled for. I've been lurking in the Obama thread from the beginning out of curiosity (I'll readily admit to being a fiscal conservative). Although I've read numerous derisive comments about HRC, Bush, Republicans, etc., I decided not to derail the thread that supported Obama by defending the groups that the posters in that thread chose to attack. However, you thought it was fine and dandy to do the opposite in the HRC thread.

Yup, yup. Exactly what u said.

[Red'sGirl]

I would LOVE HRC on the Supreme Court! Man, I think she could seriously hold down the fort there and I'd be a lot more comfortable with her arguing Roe vs Wade within those halls. If this is at all an option, I hope she'd take it. We need her on that bench.

[mar5195]

Was it me or did anyone tear up when Hil made her speech last night? I'm sad she didn't get the nom but part of me really didn't think she'd have a chance against McCain.

Obama's speech last night was awesome. Very hopeful and inspiring. My husband and I were driving in the car and high fiving each other everytime he made an slam on the Reps or McCain. The car next to us was listening too and they were chanting USA! USA!! It was so cool.

When someone mentioned Hil in the Supreme Court I felt like that would be wonderful idea. The court needs some balance.

[phoenics]

I don't believe that both candidates were treated fairly in the press - his missteps have been laughed off and Hillary has been repeatedly crucified for pretty much anything beyond breathing. .

I'm surprised by this - I think the Wright controversy really hurt Barack, while I think Hilary's RFK mention died within 3 days.

[pocket]

I would LOVE HRC on the Supreme Court! Man, I think she could seriously hold down the fort there and I'd be a lot more comfortable with her arguing Roe vs Wade within those halls. If this is at all an option, I hope she'd take it. We need her on that bench.

Bleh. Really?

I don't think the Supreme Court is a place for regular lawyers. It's for professors and judges - people who engage with the law on an intellectual level, not people who engage with law on its practical applications. HRC never even clerked. She isn't playing at that level in terms of the law.

[Niobe]

I don't despise the guy.

I don't believe he has the knowledge or experience to lead this country. He has yet to articulate to my satisfaction how he plans to execute such "change" and that is incredibly frightening to me as someone who believes that our country is in terribly bad shape. Pep rallies don't cut it. I don't believe in his so-called "change". And admittedly, much of my distaste has come from what I perceive as the media cramming him down the proverbial throat of the democrats. I don't believe that both candidates were treated fairly in the press - his missteps have been laughed off and Hillary has been repeatedly crucified for pretty much anything beyond breathing. I personally feel "disenfranchised" as a voter and "marginalized" as a college educated female who feels chastised for not living up to my demographic, although I detest those trite and tired descriptions. And lastly, I am sick to death of the sanctimonious tones used to describe BHO by his supporters - I cannot fathom having to listen to that drivel past November.
Hey, but at least you weren't "insignificant". ;)

[Delta]

I would LOVE HRC on the Supreme Court! Man, I think she could seriously hold down the fort there and I'd be a lot more comfortable with her arguing Roe vs Wade within those halls. If this is at all an option, I hope she'd take it. We need her on that bench.Worst idea ever. And if Obama is really going to walk the walk when it comes to bringing people together, this would be the wrong way to do it. She is not a legal mind. She was a mediocre corporate lawyer.

[cynder]

Worst idea ever. And if Obama is really going to walk the walk when it comes to bringing people together, this would be the wrong way to do it. She is not a legal mind. She was a mediocre corporate lawyer.
Ah-greed.

Even though I make fun of her for not getting it done back in the 90s, I could see her as a Healthcare Czar of sorts. I think she would be a lot more effective at that than at being a VP.

[nylons73]

nylons73: I definitely think this was uncalled for. I've been lurking in the Obama thread from the beginning out of curiosity (I'll readily admit to being a fiscal conservative). Although I've read numerous derisive comments about HRC, Bush, Republicans, etc., I decided not to derail the thread that supported Obama by defending the groups that the posters in that thread chose to attack. However, you thought it was fine and dandy to do the opposite in the HRC thread.

Uncalled for? Ok, answer me this. Do you think it was proper of Anna to state that it was the 'saddest day' in the Democratic Party? That premise is completely 100 percent laughable.

We've had a President assassinated, his brother assassinated a few years later (while running for Dem. nominee) and a multitude of other things happen in the Democratic party, but Anna gets to come in here and write "It's the saddest day?" Seriously? And if I say anything about that I'm uncalled for?

Do you honestly believe that was appropriate language and I should have let it just 'go.' I'm tired of letting things 'just go.' It was inappropriate to put Obama's nomination AHEAD of the real tragedies and sadness our party has experienced and I don't feel like I have to sit here and read that.

And thank you to ihearttx for the clarification on the post-it note comment.

[Delta]

Do you honestly believe that was appropriate language and I should have let it just 'go.' I'm tired of letting things 'just go.' It was inappropriate to put Obama's nomination AHEAD of the real tragedies and sadness our party has experienced and I don't feel like I have to sit here and read that.

Personally, I see those types of things as things the country has experienced, not the party.

[nylons73]

Worst idea ever. And if Obama is really going to walk the walk when it comes to bringing people together, this would be the wrong way to do it. She is not a legal mind. She was a mediocre corporate lawyer.

And, as I just got flamed for by a few posters (and maybe I deserved it) she graduated at the BOTTOM of her law school class. How does that qualify one for the Supreme Court?

[nylons73]

Personally, I see those types of things as things the country has experienced, not the party.

Your point is well taken, but the events are not mutually exclusive. The Kennedys were and are leaders of the Democratic Party. To say that Obama's nomination is the 'saddest day' of the Democratic Party is taking a HUGE leap and discounting about 500 other events that would have much more merit than what she is suggesting.

Bobby Kennedy's death was actually felt nationally, but since he had just won the Democratic Party's Primary in CA, it was a huge, thundering effect on the Party and on the convention that year in Chicago.

[Delta]

Also, nylons. Let me just say one thing. This is just the beginning. If something like that comment makes you wound up, wait until the general election campaign really starts up. Deep breaths. ;)

[miel]

I have no concerns about HRC's intellectual abilities. I think she is perceived as very political and this does not work well on the court. Her views on things are too well known. There is a view (maybe an illusion) that SCOTUS judges do not prejudge, are impartial, etc. I think people would be concerned about HRC in that role and it would be hard for her to step in there.

If she does not have a role in the adminstration, she could become the lion of the Senate. I have nothing against her having a role in the administration. I think she would be good at it. But she is a leader and all the places are ones where one has to be more of a follower. You are more in the shadows. I don't see her in the shadows, taking direction from elsewhere. But maybe I am wrong. I would assume she would want the political autonomy she could have in the Senate.

[Delta]

[QUOTE=miel;1726533

If she does not have a role in the adminstration, she could become the lion of the Senate. I have nothing against her having a role in the administration. I think she would be good at it. But she is a leader and all the places are ones where one has to be more of a follower. You are more in the shadows. I don't see her in the shadows, taking direction from elsewhere. But maybe I am wrong. I would assume she would want the political autonomy she could have in the Senate.[/QUOTE]Agree.

[Adaya]

I think this is the saddest day for the democratic party. We had a chance to pick someone who could actually lead us beyond the Bush mess and what the dems do? They pick BHO - a paper doll with just enough experience to fill up a post it note. Hopefully this lousy move has finally made his wife, Bitter Betty, "proud". I know I'm sure not.

I couldn't agree more - as a republican. I actually think I would've voted for HRC over McCain but I might just not vote this election.

Wow.

[ThreeYell]

Hillary isn't a legal scholar; she's a politician. She doesn't have any place on the S.Ct. Put her in the cabinet or make her Senate Majority Leader (because there's somewhere we could use her tenacity) but she's got no business on the court. As a former faculty member at the University of Chicago Law School, where real legal thinkers are educated ;) , Obama is well connected to the top legal minds in the country. He'll give us someone great on the court.

[nylons73]

Also, nylons. Let me just say one thing. This is just the beginning. If something like that comment makes you wound up, wait until the general election campaign really starts up. Deep breaths. ;)

I know Delta, I know. Deep breaths - I promise :) It's just like I came in here hoping to see all kinds of encouraging messages (Like Gayle's and Ihearttx's in the O thread) and then I saw that. It just pushed a button that I couldn't un-push.

There's going to be far worse things said about Democrats, Obama, his wife, etc and I know I can't blow a gasket every time it happens. Thanks for the meditation. I am going to go calm down now for a few days (or weeks. heh) ;)

[cosmic]

Good talk. But, I have to say that the court HAS become more political (and conservative) after almost a decade of republican appointments. It's true that she's never been a judge, but hey... look at some of the people GWB nominated for the high court. I dunno- I'd still like to throw HRC in there with Scalia and close the door. In a good way! :p I don't see anyplace where Democrats need a (perceived) fighter more.

[phoenics]

I think McCain here will do a fine job of getting Hilary supporters NOT to vote for him:

Here he is answering a supporter (his) on her question: "How do we beat the bitch?" (she's referring to Hilary).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLQGWpRVA7o

I don't think Hilary supporters really want to vote for McCain.

[Red'sGirl]

Good talk. But, I have to say that the court HAS become more political (and conservative) after almost a decade of republican apointments. It's true that she's never been a judge, but hey... look at some of the people GWB nominated for the high court. I dunno- I'd still like to throw HRC in there with Scalia and close the door. In a good way! :p I don't see anyplace where Democrats need a (perceived) fighter more.

Exactly where I was leaning. The way the SCOTUS is now, it IS more political and less ..... legal eagle. So I do not think she would be incapable of holding up and fighting for cerrtain ideals that are in great jeopardy. But I will take back that she might not be PERFECT for the job. :o

BTW, that is absolutely NOT my worst idea EVER! I have had, and will have, PLENTY more that are much worse. :)

[bookworm]

Do you honestly believe that was appropriate language and I should have let it just 'go.' I'm tired of letting things 'just go.' It was inappropriate to put Obama's nomination AHEAD of the real tragedies and sadness our party has experienced and I don't feel like I have to sit here and read that.


I think it was hyperbole akin to my saying Bush's re-election was the worst thing to happen to this country. Sure, it's not... but this is the Hillary thread, and a lot of people passionately believe she would be the best person to lead this country. It's a day for them to mourn the loss of a dream. You may not find that dream compelling, but still. So yeah, I think you should let it go. For today, at least.

[amb411]

We know that anyone with an ounce of sense is going to happily eat a big helping of crow with a nice side of their own words when they cast their vote for Barack Obama in November.

Well, this independent who turned democrat for Pa primaries won't be eating crow when she votes for McCain. I vote for the best for the job, not the best shot for a party to win. I wonder how many others like me, the Democrats will be losing?

[lunaria]

Well, this independent who turned democrat for Pa primaries won't be eating crow when she votes for McCain. I vote for the best for the job, not the best shot for a party to win. I wonder how many others like me, the Democrats will be losing?

You go girl:)

[bookworm]

Well, this independent who turned democrat for Pa primaries won't be eating crow when she votes for McCain. I vote for the best for the job, not the best shot for a party to win. I wonder how many others like me, the Democrats will be losing?

FWIW, I'm also independent. McCain is more right-wing than he would like people to believe right now (though the bit about continuing Bush's court appointments is a good clue). If that matches your beliefs, certainly vote for him. If you were happy with Hillary, though, that doesn't make a ton of sense to me (not that it needs to). Is there a VP candidate that would make you more comfortable with Obama as president? It's no secret that I'm a bit afraid he won't get anything done. But at the end of the day I'd rather stagnate for 4 years than move forward in McCain's direction.

ETA: Dammit, I just contradicted myself from above---this is indeed the Hillary thread. I think I thought it was the Democrat one. Apologies to those who don't want the Obama-talk here--I'd delete it but I think that's a bit rude.

[cosmic]

Well, this independent who turned democrat for Pa primaries won't be eating crow when she votes for McCain. I vote for the best for the job, not the best shot for a party to win. I wonder how many others like me, the Democrats will be losing?

Operation Chaos?

LOL... that's quite a leap you have there. There is nothing funnier than someone who voted for HRC and suddenly sees her closest counterpart as McCain. I for one am not wringing my hands over it.

As Donna Brazille said, "you’re ready to not only destroy Roe versus Wade, voting rights, civil liberties and civil rights. Perhaps adding trillions more to the deficits through non stop tax cuts to the wealthy and 100 more years in Iraq.
Yes, please join Rush and McCain asap. The train has left. Catch it."

Ride on. Some people are just not going to vote for Obama, even though everyone knows there's almost no daylight between most of HRC's and Obama's policies. They're just that close. HRC and McCain are similar in only one or two ways. Plus all the cable news shows are already telling us Obama can forget about the- how do they put it?- Appalacians, low-information voters, etc. And yet, if the trends hold, he's still expected to win.

[Delta]

BTW, that is absolutely NOT my worst idea EVER! I have had, and will have, PLENTY more that are much worse. :)Oh don't worry. My comment was nothing personal. The HRC at SCOTUS idea has been floated lots of places!

[Dally]

I do not get the appeal of Hillary as a Supreme Court Justice. She does not have the appropriate experience and she is far too political. I'm not a fan of "agenda" judges from either side of the aisle.

Personally, I think Hillary would do best for herself (and perhaps for the party) as Senate Majority Leader.

[gayle]

I do not get the appeal of Hillary as a Supreme Court Justice. She does not have the appropriate experience and she is far too political. I'm not a fan of "agenda" judges from either side of the aisle.

Personally, I think Hillary would do best for herself (and perhaps for the party) as Senate Majority Leader.

I completely agree. Senate Majority Leader is where I'd like to see her now. She has alot to offer there.

[Anna Low]

I think McCain here will do a fine job of getting Hilary supporters NOT to vote for him:

Here he is answering a supporter (his) on her question: "How do we beat the bitch?" (she's referring to Hilary).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLQGWpRVA7o

I don't think Hilary supporters really want to vote for McCain.

You're spot-on right. I don't really want to vote for McCain. But not wanting to vote for McCain isn't enough to push me over the edge to vote for BHO.

[Amaye]

Operation Chaos?

LOL... that's quite a leap you have there. There is nothing funnier than someone who voted for HRC and suddenly sees her closest counterpart as McCain. I for one am not wringing my hands over it.

As Donna Brazille said, "you’re ready to not only destroy Roe versus Wade, voting rights, civil liberties and civil rights. Perhaps adding trillions more to the deficits through non stop tax cuts to the wealthy and 100 more years in Iraq.
Yes, please join Rush and McCain asap. The train has left. Catch it."

Ride on. Some people are just not going to vote for Obama, even though everyone knows there's almost no daylight between most of HRC's and Obama's policies. They're just that close. HRC and McCain are similar in only one or two ways. Plus all the cable news shows are already telling us Obama can forget about the- how do they put it?- Appalacians, low-information voters, etc. And yet, if the trends hold, he's still expected to win.

Thank you for saying it so well!!!

[phoenics]

Well, this independent who turned democrat for Pa primaries won't be eating crow when she votes for McCain. I vote for the best for the job, not the best shot for a party to win. I wonder how many others like me, the Democrats will be losing?

I wouldn't consider you a democrat. I'd consider you an independent. There's a difference, honestly. Obama of course would have to win over independents, however I'm trying to reconcile your previous support for Hilary to a man who policy-wise and issue-wise is worlds apart from her.

That's the connection I'm missing. Why is McCain the 'best for the job'? Is that opinion based on issues or experience? If issues, I don't understand. If experience, okay. I disagree, but okay.

[phoenics]

You're spot-on right. I don't really want to vote for McCain. But not wanting to vote for McCain isn't enough to push me over the edge to vote for BHO.

Well, that's better than your initial reaction!! We're making progress, lol! :D

I think that after you've had time to grieve, maybe then voting for Obama won't be so hard to ponder... maybe in the end you won't vote for him... but maybe during the GE, you'll come to see that he's much more similar to Hilary than McCain is and that it wouldn't be so bad voting for him?

We can hope for that... okay - *I'll* hope for that, lol.

[Thankful1]

Let me first preface this by saying I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I am just wondering from real-life conversations how many people will answer this honestly.

How many of those who were Hillary supporters and now say they will/are pondering voting for McCain really are doing it based on issues? I don't see the similarities, issue wise, between Hillary and McCain. How many are afraid of having a black man, though he is much similar on issues to Hillary than McCain is, for president?

Like I said, I'm not accusing anyone. I'm just wondering what the rationale is for such a huge switch.

[Delta]

About the Senate Majority Leader thing...Harry Reid is not just going to step aside.

[Niobe]

I wouldn't consider you a democrat. I'd consider you an independent. There's a difference, honestly. Obama of course would have to win over independents, however I'm trying to reconcile your previous support for Hilary to a man who policy-wise and issue-wise is worlds apart from her.

That's the connection I'm missing. Why is McCain the 'best for the job'? Is that opinion based on issues or experience? If issues, I don't understand. If experience, okay. I disagree, but okay.

Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran. ;)

[phoenics]

Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran. ;)

Why did this make me think of that presentation given by that computer scientist....?

Chicken chicken chicken, chicken chicken Iran.

:D

[wine_o_girlie]

How many of those who were Hillary supporters and now say they will/are pondering voting for McCain really are doing it based on issues? I don't see the similarities, issue wise, between Hillary and McCain. How many are afraid of having a black man, though he is much similar on issues to Hillary than McCain is, for president?



Sadly enough, nearly my entire family in WV will be pulling the lever for McCain because they don't want a black President. That's honestly the only reason. They were VERY Pro-Hillay, or really Anti-Obama but wouldn't exactly call it that. It's disgusting and I am quite ashamed of them. :o I have honestly never been so upset with many members of my own family. It's a sad, sad day this type of crap is still taking place in 2008. At a family event over Memorial Day weekend there was actually a "fried chicken" comment. :eek: These are all "nice, normal, Christian" people who just happen to live in a state where there is little or no diversity and racism is not really discouraged. Thank God I got out of that state for college and never looked back. I have had a lot of sad realizations about a lot of people that I love dearly over the last few months.

[gayle]

About the Senate Majority Leader thing...Harry Reid is not just going to step aside.

Yeah, but one can still hope that somedayHRH might have a shot at this. I myself think she'd be very effective in that position.

[jimmysgirl424]

Sadly enough, nearly my entire family in WV will be pulling the lever for McCain because they don't want a black President.

DH and I have unfortunately run into a pretty good number of people that are doing the same thing, including members of our own families, I'm ashamed to say. :( And we live in Baltimore for goodness sakes! Craziness I tell you.

[gayle]

That's a real shame wine-o-girlie.

Honestly, a year ago I really believed this country was much more ready to elect a black man, than any woman. The current results in my party seem to be bearing that theory out.

Not that I wanted Hill in office just because she is a woman, nor do I want Obama in office just because he's a black man.

I really think we WILL have a black man in office before we have a woman, because Obama damn well better win this thing! LOL. And it may be many years before we do see a woman POTUS.

As much as racism is still a problem in this country, I believe that the sexism in America, especially as it relates to positions of power, is worse.

[pocket]

Well, this independent who turned democrat for Pa primaries won't be eating crow when she votes for McCain. I vote for the best for the job, not the best shot for a party to win. I wonder how many others like me, the Democrats will be losing?

In my opinion fewer than you think. Sure there will be some, but most Democrats who really can't stand Obama will hold their noses and vote for him. No one can tell what Independents are going to do because they are notoriously hard to poll. Independents who registered as Democrats to vote for Hilary were never Obama's to begin with. They are the Independents who are motivated by a particular candidate to get involved again. Some other Independents are revolted by politics in general