Romney Bowing out of Election

[RobynScott]

Romney's Bowing out of the Election

WASHINGTON - John McCain effectively sealed the Republican presidential nomination on Thursday as chief rival Mitt Romney suspended his faltering presidential campaign. "I must now stand aside, for our party and our country," Romney told conservatives.

Remainder of article here (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080207/ap_on_el_pr/romney)

Ok - thread started. So, what do you think? Especially DEMOCRATS who were hoping to keep Romney in? Will a Democratic candidate have a harder time beating McCain than they would have with Romney? (I think so)

I hope the Dems are not in trouble by having a long drawn-out primary while the Repubs can begin to rally around a candidate. And will conservatives rally around McCain - or will Huckabee start to get more support?

[Delta]

It was time for him to go. Huck needs to drop out too for the sake of getting the party in gear for November.

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

I've read that the party who settles on a candidate earlier does usually fare better. So I'm hoping Huckabee stays in for a good long time and picks up Romney's supporters. ;)

[Rositabean]

When I saw the news today all I could think was thank God! I could not stand this man. I voted for McCain. Huckabee needs to leave now too.

Now if Hillary would go away it would be interesting to be in the position this Fall of choosing between 2 candidates that I kind of like instead of picking according to who is least nauseating.

[LyLMyssChaos]

And with this move the Democrats will win in 2008. The Republicans will not unite behind McCain. I will not be surprised if the Democrat nominee wins by a GIGANTIC margin or if the number of Republican voters is a record low.

[PinkMartini]

And with this move the Democrats will win in 2008. The Republicans will not unite behind McCain. I will not be surprised if the Democrat nominee wins by a GIGANTIC margin or if the number of Republican voters is a record low.

While I agree, did you really think Romney had a chance after Super Tuesday? I think we were doomed the min. McCain gained ground :(

[LyLMyssChaos]

While I agree, did you really think Romney had a chance after Super Tuesday? I think we were doomed the min. McCain gained ground :(

I was really hoping for Huck or Romney. I just don't know if Huck can completely pull it off. I just can't accept that my children are going to be raised in a society run by a democrat. It breaks my heart.

[laura]

I just can't accept that my children are going to be raised in a society run by a democrat. It breaks my heart.

Really? I mean I think it could still be anyone's game, esp with HRC still in play, but I am fascinated by this statement. Do/did you honestly think there would always be a Republican President?

[bookworm]

That's interesting, because I think most Dems see McCain as harder to run against--he'll get the moderate/crossover/fiscal conservative votes that might have gone either way.

LMC, I don't think you need to be heartbroken. There are very few old-style "democrats" left. Both Obama and Clinton are pretty moderate. If anything, there are more likely to balance the budget (which will be good for your children). It was Clinton part 1 (I didn't vote for him either time, actually) who signed the welfare reform act. So I think this image of democrat == reckless spending and giving handouts is a bit passe. I do think there are still real differences between the parties, and it's not that I think you should be happy about a Democrat in office, but the bar has shifted so far right that was used to be moderate R is now liberal R and what used to be moderate/conservative D is now considered liberal. No one is signing us up for any more massive entitlement programs, and I think everyone realizes the ones we have need a little help & attention.

[LyLMyssChaos]

Really? I mean I think it could still be anyone's game, esp with HRC still in play, but I am fascinated by this statement. Do/did you honestly think there would always be a Republican President?

I think that McCain is just as liberal as the Dems on many issues. And did I honestly think there would always be a Rep. President? No, but I can certainly hope. I would imagine the way I feel right now is how many felt when Bush was elected. I am not happy because if McCain does get the nod(which he most likely will, particularly since Romney endorsed him) that there will be NOBODY running that represents my views. I know that's a very selfish view, but I already live in a state where my views are not represented, my last hope was to have the President represent me. I'm feeling extremely let down over all of this.

This is just one more reminder that I live in a society that I don't belong in.

[laura]

Gotcha. In Bush's presidency, did you feel like you were living in a society you do belong in?

[LyLMyssChaos]

Gotcha. In Bush's presidency, did you feel like you were living in a society you do belong in?

Not in my state, but overall, yes I did. My state has been run into the ground by a Democrat governor and I have not seen good things happen at the hands of Democrats during my lifetime. I am very afraid of the concept of having everything run by Democrats.

[laura]

I see.

[ysolde]

I think that McCain is just as liberal as the Dems on many issues. And did I honestly think there would always be a Rep. President? No, but I can certainly hope. I would imagine the way I feel right now is how many felt when Bush was elected. I am not happy because if McCain does get the nod(which he most likely will, particularly since Romney endorsed him) that there will be NOBODY running that represents my views. I know that's a very selfish view, but I already live in a state where my views are not represented, my last hope was to have the President represent me. I'm feeling extremely let down over all of this.

This is just one more reminder that I live in a society that I don't belong in.


I've been feeling that way for a long time. I feel as if I can't worship as I am called to, because we are become increasingly theocratic, and I have never belonged to the State Religion. I feel as though much of the rest of the country simply does not care about the appalling conditions in which too many of our children live (although they shed crocodile tears when a child dies after years of torture and neglect). They talk about family values, and disregard our families, abandoning them to their fates (which is, increasingly, the streets). They shove horrible and misleading images of rotting stillbirths in our faces, call them "genocide" (this just happened to me yesterday, as I waited for a bus), and allow thouands upon thousands of abandoned chilren to spend years of their lives in an overburdened foster care system with no one to care for them, until they age out of the system. Then what? So much for the "blessing of adoption," huh? They talk about the fight against terrorism, but abandon New York to its own devices when it comes to protecting this city, which has been al-Qaeda's target not once, but twice now, because the ultra-right wing does not like how we live. The ultra right wingers have even come up with a video game about the end times that takes places here, so that their children can be trained to be good soldiers in the Holy War to kill all us evill New Yorkers.

Frankly, sometimes I think I can't take much more, that it is time to pack it up and go to Europe somewhere. But then Iremember that this is my country, that I have just as much right to be here as the fascists who want to turn it into their version of a Christian Taliban, and I am just not going to give them the satisfaction.

[ejs]

I was really hoping for Huck or Romney. I just don't know if Huck can completely pull it off. I just can't accept that my children are going to be raised in a society run by a democrat. It breaks my heart.
How do you feel the lives of you and your children will be directly impacted if a Democrat is in the White House?
Democrats: you can answer this in the reverse, if you'd like.

[laura]

I've been feeling that way for a long time. I feel as if I can't worship as I am called to, because we are become increasingly theocratic, and I have never belonged to the State Religion. I feel as though much of the rest of the country simply does not care about the appalling conditions in which too many of our children live (although they shed crocodile tears when a child dies after years of torture and neglect). They talk about family values, and disregard our families, abandoning them to their fates (which is, increasingly, the streets). They shove horrible and misleading images of rotting stillbirths in our faces, call them "genocide" (this just happened to me yesterday, as I waited for a bus), and allow thouands upon thousands of abandoned chilren to spend years of their lives in an overburdened foster care system with no one to care for them, until they age out of the system. Then what? So much for the "blessing of adoption," huh? They talk about the fight against terrorism, but abandon New York to its own devices when it comes to protecting this city, which has been al-Qaeda's target not once, but twice now, because the ultra-right wing does not like how we live. The ultra right wingers have even come up with a video game about the end times that takes places here, so that their children can be trained to be good soldiers in the Holy War to kill all us evill New Yorkers.

Frankly, sometimes I think I can't take much more, that it is time to pack it up and go to Europe somewhere. But then Iremember that this is my country, that I have just as much right to be here as the fascists who want to turn it into their version of a Christian Taliban, and I am just not going to give them the satisfaction.

Well that's kind of the thing I found most surprising about LMC's original sentiments, I guess. The bad politics seem, to me, to be about the only truly non-partisan or bi-partisan thing going on right now - they're everywhere. At this point I am sort of for anyone who will actually DO something good, instead of just talk about doing something good. The time for blind faith in a party for the sake of being either Democrat or Republican just seems well past to me. But I am admittedly a moderate, so it's probably easier for me to see the middle.

[ysolde]

Well that's kind of the thing I found most surprising about LMC's original sentiments, I guess. The bad politics seem, to me, to be about the only truly non-partisan or bi-partisan thing going on right now - they're everywhere. At this point I am sort of for anyone who will actually DO something good, instead of just talk about doing something good. The time for blind faith in a party for the sake of being either Democrat or Republican just seems well past to me. But I am admittedly a moderate, so it's probably easier for me to see the middle.

Frankly, I am not entirely sure who I am going to vote for (I have to see how the election cycle pans out), but I know how I am leaning right now, and it has a lot to do with the feeling that I am tired of politics as usual, talk, talk, talk, and everyone, on both sides of the aisle, doing nothing of benefit to anyone (except their own pockets).

[LyLMyssChaos]

How do you feel the lives of you and your children will be directly impacted if a Democrat is in the White House?
Democrats: you can answer this in the reverse, if you'd like.

The first thing will be that nationalized health care will be instituted. Currently, my husband's employer pays a large portion of the cost of Health Care for us. If there is a nationalized health care plan, many employers will decide to not offer that benefit as there will be an alternative to "fall back on." I have had had government run health care and as much as I complain about my current provider, it is 100 times better than it was on government assistance.

Secondly, under a Democrat, taxes will raise. As someone whom doesn't make much money now, I have been quite happy with the tax cuts that Bush instituted. I really don't want to see more of my money going to the government.

Thirdly, I'd be very concerned as a Homeschooling parent how the Democrat view on Education would affect my right to do that. I'd be very concerned that a Democrat would make school attendance at an institution mandatory.


The other issues that worry me would depend on which candidate wins. Over all, I am very worried that my rights would be eroded one by one all for the sake of not hurting anyone's feelings.

[ejs]

The first thing will be that nationalized health care will be instituted. Currently, my husband's employer pays a large portion of the cost of Health Care for us. If there is a nationalized health care plan, many employers will decide to not offer that benefit as there will be an alternative to "fall back on." I have had had government run health care and as much as I complain about my current provider, it is 100 times better than it was on government assistance.

Secondly, under a Democrat, taxes will raise. As someone whom doesn't make much money now, I have been quite happy with the tax cuts that Bush instituted. I really don't want to see more of my money going to the government.

Thirdly, I'd be very concerned as a Homeschooling parent how the Democrat view on Education would affect my right to do that. I'd be very concerned that a Democrat would make school attendance at an institution mandatory.


The other issues that worry me would depend on which candidate wins. Over all, I am very worried that my rights would be eroded one by one all for the sake of not hurting anyone's feelings.
But the President can't implement those things on his/her own. Congress has a huge hand in it.

[LyLMyssChaos]

But the President can't implement those things on his/her own. Congress has a huge hand in it.

Unfortunately, I have little/no faith in our congressional representatives. They are majorly Dems as well. That has a lot to do with the fact that I live in a Democrat run state. I despise it, I truly do. We would move if only we could afford to do so. :(

[bookworm]

The first thing will be that nationalized health care will be instituted. Currently, my husband's employer pays a large portion of the cost of Health Care for us. If there is a nationalized health care plan, many employers will decide to not offer that benefit as there will be an alternative to "fall back on." I have had had government run health care and as much as I complain about my current provider, it is 100 times better than it was on government assistance.

Secondly, under a Democrat, taxes will raise. As someone whom doesn't make much money now, I have been quite happy with the tax cuts that Bush instituted. I really don't want to see more of my money going to the government.

Thirdly, I'd be very concerned as a Homeschooling parent how the Democrat view on Education would affect my right to do that. I'd be very concerned that a Democrat would make school attendance at an institution mandatory.

The other issues that worry me would depend on which candidate wins. Over all, I am very worried that my rights would be eroded one by one all for the sake of not hurting anyone's feelings.


1. To the best of my knowledge, none of the serious contenders has proposed a single-payer system. "Hillarycare" is essentially the same plan Romney has implemented in MA---same old insurance companies, with premiums subsidized for low-income individuals. Obama's is even less regulated--similar concepts, but no requirement to have insurance.

2. From what you say about your tax bracket, your taxes will not go up. The "repeal" of the tax cuts that has been suggested is for people making over $250k (not sure if that's per individual or per family)--that is a fraction of the people who received the cut in the first place. (ETA: At the time the Bush tax cuts went into effect, I got an extra $10 in my paycheck per week. I didn't send a donation to the IRS, so I shouldn't criticize, but I think that $ would have been better used to offset the budget deficit.)

3. No ideas on homeschooling, but it seems extremely unlikely that anyone would outlaw it.

I'm not suggesting there aren't things you'll dislike, but I really wouldn't lose sleep worrying about the things you've mentioned.

If your state has been mis-managed, that is likely not a partisan issue.

ETA: As far as your rights being eroded, these days the democrats are the defenders of individual rights. This administration (and likely a McCain one) has been willing to chuck them all in the name of national security.

[ysolde]

The first thing will be that nationalized health care will be instituted. Currently, my husband's employer pays a large portion of the cost of Health Care for us. If there is a nationalized health care plan, many employers will decide to not offer that benefit as there will be an alternative to "fall back on." I have had had government run health care and as much as I complain about my current provider, it is 100 times better than it was on government assistance.

Secondly, under a Democrat, taxes will raise. As someone whom doesn't make much money now, I have been quite happy with the tax cuts that Bush instituted. I really don't want to see more of my money going to the government.

Thirdly, I'd be very concerned as a Homeschooling parent how the Democrat view on Education would affect my right to do that. I'd be very concerned that a Democrat would make school attendance at an institution mandatory.


The other issues that worry me would depend on which candidate wins. Over all, I am very worried that my rights would be eroded one by one all for the sake of not hurting anyone's feelings.

I think (though I have no way of knowing) that the health care plans being touted will be more of a fall-back for the uninsured, not a way for employers to get out of insuring their employees. It's an excellent point you raise, and one that we all need to raise cain about in the coming years.

I did not make enough money for the Bush tax cuts to affect me. Indeed, I ended up making considerably less money under Bush than I did in the Clinton era, and have never recovered. Tax cuts? I just want the NY economy to recover, so that I can make the money I used to make, or something close to it.

People I know who homeschooled their children homeschooled under Carter, Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II. Whether it be for economic, ideological, or intellectual reasons (or some combination thereof), some parents will choose to homeschool. It is their right, and it won't change. (On a side note, when I was growing up, my parents firmly believed in private schooling. At one point, the local legislature tried to interfere with the type of education provided in the type of private school I attended. The parents affiliated with these schools went ballistic, and the legislature went slinking away.)

Other rights? Well, eternal vigilance and all that.

[Delta]

The Republicans will not unite behind McCain.Yes they will. To beat Hillary, they will.

But I'm not really all that concerned about McCain. He's not my first choice, but I don't think he deserves the hysteria about him coming from people who worship Reagan but also forget that he raised taxes, worked across the aisle with Tip O'Neill and granted amnesty to millions.

My biggest worry with McCain at this point is his VP choice.

[Delta]

And also - Romney and Huck would never have won in November. No way.

[Delta]

I am not happy because if McCain does get the nod(which he most likely will, particularly since Romney endorsed him)And also, Romney did not endorse him.

[miel]

The first thing will be that nationalized health care will be instituted. Currently, my husband's employer pays a large portion of the cost of Health Care for us. If there is a nationalized health care plan, many employers will decide to not offer that benefit as there will be an alternative to "fall back on." I have had had government run health care and as much as I complain about my current provider, it is 100 times better than it was on government assistance.

Secondly, under a Democrat, taxes will raise. As someone whom doesn't make much money now, I have been quite happy with the tax cuts that Bush instituted. I really don't want to see more of my money going to the government.

Thirdly, I'd be very concerned as a Homeschooling parent how the Democrat view on Education would affect my right to do that. I'd be very concerned that a Democrat would make school attendance at an institution mandatory.


None of these things will happen under a democrat. You personally will probably get a tax cut. The stated plan is to cut taxes on the middle class and raise them on the very rich. No one will ever prohibit homeschooling. The insurance will not change. It will be private. In simple terms, the govt. will pay for the insurance for some people who do not get insurance.

The reason I don't like living under Bush is not that he is a Republican but because my government has explicitly stated its right to violate people's human and civil rights. I don't like living in a country that tortures people and imprisons people without trial or basic legal rights. I don't want any more unjust wars. It also concerns me that basic civil rights like the right to privacy and due process are no longer protected as they were. The govt. is also badly managed at this time but that is not the worst problem. It is conceivable to me that a democrat might also do these things--start wars, OK torture. If they did, I wouldn't like living under a democrat. I would basically despair for the U.S. altogether.

It's one thing to disagree with policies and another to be basically ethically horrified by the evil your government does. What was horrifying under Reagan was the situation in Central America where U.S. money and training went to armies that were committing genocide against their own people. What's happened under Bush is worse than that since the U.S. government is directly torturing and killing and imprisoning people.

There are some things I think people shouldn't live with and aiding and abetting torture and murder of other people by the government are one of those things. However, it is not inconceivable to me that this kind of thing could cross party lines. So far though, the democrats are better on this but sometimes not good enough in my opinion.

ETA: Actually, this might be the only thing that would get me to cross party lines to vote. But because the Republicans take their main selling point as 'strong' and strong for some reason seems to mean 'willing to do things that the U.S. previously shunned because they were evil, like torture people' then I don't see that happening. I wonder how McCain will deal with the due process issues. I am comforted that at least he is not sanguine about torture.

[jennylou]

Not in my state, but overall, yes I did. My state has been run into the ground by a Democrat governor and I have not seen good things happen at the hands of Democrats during my lifetime. I am very afraid of the concept of having everything run by Democrats.

I wouldn't blame the state only on the Democratic Governor. As I understand (from relatives who live in Michigan) it, the state is very much like NE Ohio. Losing jobs due to jobs being sent elsewhere (yay, China!). We've been in financial trouble for a while here, whereas the rest of the country is just now starting to feel more of a pinch, we've felt it for awhile (I'd venture to say since 2001).

It's not just the Governor who ruins things, he needs help by your state law makers, and often times they are the ones who have more control over how the state is run than the Governor.

[LyLMyssChaos]

I wouldn't blame the state only on the Democratic Governor. As I understand (from relatives who live in Michigan) it, the state is very much like NE Ohio. Losing jobs due to jobs being sent elsewhere (yay, China!). We've been in financial trouble for a while here, whereas the rest of the country is just now starting to feel more of a pinch, we've felt it for awhile (I'd venture to say since 2001).

It's not just the Governor who ruins things, he needs help by your state law makers, and often times they are the ones who have more control over how the state is run than the Governor.

I would understand if it were jobs leaving to China. That simply isn't the case. The jobs are moving to other states because our Governor wanted to "change the image of our state." She wanted to attract a more "academic population" and put the stop on several tax incentives/breaks that would have kept the corporations here. She also refused to allow any new items that would attract more manufacturing. We were a manufacturing state, but the jobs left to states that wanted them. We are now an unemployment state.

[LyLMyssChaos]

None of these things will happen under a democrat. You personally will probably get a tax cut. The stated plan is to cut taxes on the middle class and raise them on the very rich. No one will ever prohibit homeschooling. The insurance will not change. It will be private. In simple terms, the govt. will pay for the insurance for some people who do not get insurance.

The reason I don't like living under Bush is not that he is a Republican but because my government has explicitly stated its right to violate people's human and civil rights. I don't like living in a country that tortures people and imprisons people without trial or basic legal rights. I don't want any more unjust wars. It also concerns me that basic civil rights like the right to privacy and due process are no longer protected as they were. The govt. is also badly managed at this time but that is not the worst problem. It is conceivable to me that a democrat might also do these things--start wars, OK torture. If they did, I wouldn't like living under a democrat. I would basically despair for the U.S. altogether.

It's one thing to disagree with policies and another to be basically ethically horrified by the evil your government does. What was horrifying under Reagan was the situation in Central America where U.S. money and training went to armies that were committing genocide against their own people. What's happened under Bush is worse than that since the U.S. government is directly torturing and killing and imprisoning people.

There are some things I think people shouldn't live with and aiding and abetting torture and murder of other people by the government are one of those things. However, it is not inconceivable to me that this kind of thing could cross party lines. So far though, the democrats are better on this but sometimes not good enough in my opinion.

ETA: Actually, this might be the only thing that would get me to cross party lines to vote. But because the Republicans take their main selling point as 'strong' and strong for some reason seems to mean 'willing to do things that the U.S. previously shunned because they were evil, like torture people' then I don't see that happening. I wonder how McCain will deal with the due process issues. I am comforted that at least he is not sanguine about torture.

If only I was middle class. I am NOWHERE near "middle class." So yes, my taxes will increase. Currently we are in the 10% income tax bracket. Hillary has proposed to restore tax levels that were in place before Bush (which places us at 15%) and reduce child tax credits. So that results in an increase for my family. As far as health care goes, you are right, the plan is for it not to change. But seriously, if the government is offering a widespread health care plan, why would a small business owner want to keep forking over their money to pay for it? A scenario that someone gave me was this; If a restaurant is giving away meals for free, who is going to pay to eat next door? Particularly if money is tight?

As far as being ethically horrified at the idea of living under a Democrat. I have every right to be concerned. I didn't mention many of the "hot button" issues that I will not like living under because I knew things would deteriorate. As an example, you are opposed to torture and murder of those who wish to bring harm to our country. I am opposed to the torture and murder of unborn children. So obviously, someone is going to be unhappy with the choice of whom leads us. It unfortunately will be my turn this time around. I can only pray that those whom share my views will wake up and put the pressure on so that we win in the next go round.

[ysolde]

This is from the Huffington Post, and has been posted in the "There's no crying in baseball" thread:

Today when I listen to Obama speak (and to his remarkable wife, Michelle) what I hear is a world view that actually nurtures life. Obama is trying to lead this country to a place where the intrinsic worth of each individual is celebrated. A leader who believes in hope, the future, trying to save our planet and providing a just and good life for everyone is someone who is actually pro-life.

Conversely the "pro-life" ethic of George W. Bush manifested itself in a series of squandered opportunities to call us to our better natures. After 9/11, Bush told most Americans to go shopping while saddling the few who volunteered for military service with endless tours of duty (something I know a little about since my son was a Marine and deployed several times). The Bush doctrine of life was expressed by starting an unnecessary war in Iraq that has killed thousands of Americans and wounded tens of thousands more.

The society that Obama is calling us to sacrifice for is a place wherein life would be valued not just talked about. As he said in his speech delivered on February 6 in New Orleans, "Too often, we lose our sense of common destiny; that understanding that we are all tied together; that when a woman has less than nothing in this country, that makes us all poorer." Obama was talking about the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, but his words also apply to our overall view of ourselves.

Regardless of the official position of the Supreme Court on abortion, a country in which all Americans are offered some sort of dignity and hopeful future would be a place conducive to the kind of optimism each of us must hold in our hearts if we are to welcome children into this world. But if our highest aspiration is to be a consumer with no thought or care for our neighbor, we will remain a culture in which abortion is not only inevitable but logical.
[]
Similarly the Republicans have also been hypocrites while talking big, for instance about their pro-life ethic. But what have they achieved? First, through their puritanical war on sex education they've hindered our country from actually preventing unwanted pregnancy. Second, through the Republican Party's marriage to the greediest and most polluting earth-destroying corporations they've created a climate (both moral and physical) that has scorched the earth for-profit, with no regard to future generations whatsoever. The Republicans are to the pro-life movement what the Clintons are to selfless public service.

The real solution to abortion is to change the heart of America, not the law. We need to stop seeing ourselves as consumers. We need to stop seeing ourselves as me and begin to think of we. Our country needs someone to show us a better way, a president who is what he seems, someone with actual moral authority that our diverse population can believe in who has the qualities that make us want to follow him. Obama is that person.

Frank Schaeffer is a writer and author of "CRAZY FOR GOD -- How I Grew Up As One Of The Elect, Helped Found The Religious Right, And Lived To Take All (Or Almost All) Of It Back"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/why-im-prolife-and-pro_b_85636.html

[msnicolea]

What leading Democrat has ever spoken out against homeschooling? I don't understand where that is coming from!?!

[Niobe]

What leading Democrat has ever spoken out against homeschooling? I don't understand where that is coming from!?!

The mind of someone who thinks Democrats torture babies. :rolleyes:

[Niobe]

How do you feel the lives of you and your children will be directly impacted if a Democrat is in the White House?
Democrats: you can answer this in the reverse, if you'd like.

Been thinking on this one.

1) Being uninsured, universal health care would be a great boon to me. Would sure be nice to get a new prescription for my asthma inhaler, since mine ran out a few months ago.

2) Democrats tend to increase funding and financial aid for colleges. This would help me directly, as a college student, and indirectly, as more people are able to get college educations and become more productive members of our society.

3) Mostly though, it's not about me directly. My life will be better if other members of society's lives are bettered through increased spending on education and social programs. I'm also part of that bottom 10% who might see higher taxes, if LMC is correct (I really haven't looked at tax plans), but I'm also a socialist who is okay with paying taxes if I, and society as a whole, get something back from that money. Not this expensive-ass, endless war, but money spent to better our nation and quality of life.

Oh, and Supreme Court picks. That's the real power of the presidency and I don't think I'd be real happy with McCain's, ideology-wise, even if it didn't affect me directly.

[ysolde]

On the war:

I will say something I have not said in a long, long time. Years ago, when I was getting my Master's, my research was on Augustinian and Thomist conceptions of Just War, and whether they had translated into the UN Charter. So, while I am by no means an expert on Just War, I do know the basics. And the current war really does not fall anywhere near the parameters of Just War theory. (OTOH, the Persian Gulf War certainly did, and, whatever the Realpolitik of our failure to invade Baghdad then, we were right not to do so.) So McCain's notion of remaining in Iraq for "a hundred years or more," fighting an unjust war, just really makes me more than a little uncomfortable.

[phoenics]

It always amazes me how some republicans automatically try to frame every Democrat as an extreme liberal - incapable of any morality whatsoever - and automatically label them as baby-torturers.

Why not actually do something to prevent teenage pregnancy and to change people's attitudes about personal responsibility rather than only focusing on the end-game?

To me, a Christian Democrat, there IS no one party that represents my faith perfectly. So I guess I don't fit either - but I don't think that a political party can POSSIBLY fit my faith. It's ludicrous to think that it could - is God really that simple?

I'm serious. Is He?

You have to use a selective morality with either party's candidates and I'm really getting pissed off at the arrogant assumptions of many republicans in this country that democrats aren't Christian or can't have Christian values.

The general republican-speak that really bothers me is the idea that we have no culpability as a society to others we have harmed (that could be certain groups within society or innocent children) UNLESS it's ONLY to unborn children.

It's as if some republicans think that if we make sure abortion is illegal, then we can all go home - work's done. NOT! Before abortion became legal, we STILL had many issues as a society to fix. There are still groups of people in this country with no healthcare, with little to NO access to a quality gradeschool education, and little to NO access to money for college - their ONLY way out of poverty.

I think that half of this country SLEPT blithely on after 'doing their duty' to vote for TWO issues (the Bible would be awfully short if those were the ONLY things God cared about), while many children died from neglect or were killed in a war that never should have been started, and our world warmed up minute by minute. Meanwhile the middle class SHRUNK (maybe you'd be in the middle class LMC if a democrat had been running the country - that's what democrats do - they grow the middle class and work hard to bring people out of poverty into the middle class).

I wish people would realize that republicans don't hold the patent on faith or morality and that if you're voting republican just because you believe they are the moral 'right' (covering your moral basis as it were), you'll be mighty surprised come Judgement Day to see the horde of Democrats you previously scoffed at already inside the pearly gates, and possibly surprised to see some republicans (and dems) previously held up as moral paragons sent the other way.

Sometimes I wonder if people actually sat down and independently wrote down their real concerns (or had some way of measuring their daily worries and then outputting those to paper) and then put them into a magic machine, if they would really come out in the same political party they started with.

Or if the differences between us on many of the issues wouldn't actually be much closer than farther apart.

I believe that the political machine of this country has done us all a horrible disservice by convincing people that republicans and democrats are REALLY that far apart - so much so that LMC's concerns (some of which are mine) move her to fear a democrat, whilst I actually CRAVE one.

It's amazing what PR and political spin has accomplished and that's nothing good.

[ysolde]

That's something to think about, isn't it? The extreme right wing has made itself relevant by cashing in (literally) on a series of hot-button issues (abortion, gay rights) that they knew would touch a nerve and would always deliver, because the bottom line is, we are never going to go back to back alley abortions, women dying, and incarcertaing people for having sex with membes of the same sex. Not going to happen. So the politicians promise it, knowing it's never going to happen, and a few special interest groups on the far right line their pockets off some well-meaning people. And those same well-meaning people tend to vote in ways that do not favor their own interests, which is a real shame. They have been convinced that if they vote in ways that will actually better their lives and those of their children, the blood of "children" will somehow will be on their consciences (never mind that the abortion rates in countries where abortion is illegal are usually higher than in countries where abortion is legal). When one is dealing with that kind of sophistry, it is difficult for logic to penetrate.

[Asha]

AMEN - phoenics!!!

social programs do not only help the people that are directly receiving the aid. it helps all of us. i have been to countries where there is little social aid. i would not want to live in a country like that. if you have any sort of money, you literally live behind tall walls and bars. there are many children begging on the street. not only that child prostitution is more rampant in those countries. there is usually a lot of pollution and the streets are dirty. most children do not go to school bc the parents can't afford to pay for books and uniforms, and it is more profitable for the children to work in whatever way they can. street violence and pickpocketing are more common. i have not travelled all over the world, but i have been to several countries like this. this is not a society in which i would want to live, and it is not the moral thing to do to ignore the starving, homeless, and uneducated people.

lmc - why do you want to homeschool if bush has done such a swell job with his "genius" nclb plan?

[bea_mama]

Phoenics, that post was amazing. So, so true.

LMC, I don't know you, but I've read a fair number of your posts. I have a hard time (leave the abortion issue out of this for the moment) believing that you can not examine your own situation and think that maybe, just maybe, you might manage to live happily - and possibly improve your situation - with a president who is not a Republican.

You have the right to be disappointed with the remaining choices (many of us were there just 4 years ago). But I truly cannot understand why you are so firm in your belief that a Democratic administration would take away your rights.

As for being "ethically horrified" - well, a fair number of Americans have been "ethically horrified" for a lot of years at this point.

[ysolde]

As for being "ethically horrified" - well, a fair number of Americans have been "ethically horrified" for a lot of years at this point.

You know, my grandfather left Spain as a very young man because of the horrors of the Civil War and the disappearance of civil right and civic life. He and his family then fled Cuba in the aftermath of the Revolution (with one suitcase and no money), because they saw what was going on -- the arrests on suspicion alone, the middle of the night "disappearances" of people, some of whom were never seen or heard from again, all of whom were taken for extended periods of time without trial, the torture, the executions. My father always told me he was glad to have come to this country, because it could never happen here. Except now, it is happening here. It hurts me so much to know what my government has turned my country into -- a place as lawless as Civil War Spain and Revolutionary Cuba.

[Dally]

LMC--I agree with Bea_Mama. I understand your fear because I hated living with the Bush adminstration (and feared for my child since I believe Bush's actions have made more fertile ground for the creation of terrorists), but still...I have managed to live under eight years of Bush, and you will manage under a Democrat administration.

Sure, I'm upset that the economy is going to crap (although that is more complicated than one president), that the Bush administration is fiscally irresponsible--spending my tax dollars like crazy and contributing to the largest deficit we've ever seen, and that civil rights have been threatened by "big government", but I've still managed to get married, buy a house, have a family. Life does go on. No republican or democrat has that much power--there are too many checks and balances.

And by the way, as a self employed person, I would not mind some help with health insurance. McCain at least would offer a tax deduction for the $800/month I pay.

[Dally]

So, I can't understand why some Republicans hate McCain so much. Can someone please explain it to me? I've heard "he's liberal" but there are no facts to back that up. The guy has a long history in the Senate. Check it. He's not a liberal, he's a moderate conservative: strong on national defense, very strong on cutting spending and pork, moderate on social issues, pro-life, etc.

I realize Republicans that fully supported the Bush administration may be the sort of Republican that no longer cares about fiscal responsibility, but it used to be a Republican value. I'm old enough to remember that. So, what's the problem with McCain? Is it that he was willing to stand up to Bush (for instance, when Bush cut taxes without cutting spending) instead of go along like all of the other party sheep? Or is it that he's not an evangelical Christian?

I'm really interested. And please don't tell me he's liberal without showing me how that's the case.

[bookworm]

If only I was middle class. I am NOWHERE near "middle class." So yes, my taxes will increase. Currently we are in the 10% income tax bracket. Hillary has proposed to restore tax levels that were in place before Bush (which places us at 15%) and reduce child tax credits.

LMC, I can't quickly find a reference and I'm running out the door, but she has proposed restoring tax levels only for people making more than $250k. I'm not touching the hot button issues, but on this one you are really worrying for nothing.

[msnicolea]

ysolde--you are SO money.

And if McCain's a liberal, then WTF does that make me? Che Guevara?

[ysolde]

ysolde--you are SO money.

And if McCain's a liberal, then WTF does that make me? Che Guevara?


It would explain the beret, not to mention the facial hair everyone is too polite to talk about . . . ;)

[LyLMyssChaos]

I have been thinking a lot about this upcoming situation and why I am so concerned about having a Democrat in office. It's not that I think they are bad people (far from it, seeing as how my parents are die hard Democrats.) I think it's actually because the only Democrats I have had an experience living under have been really bad. As far as Presidents go, the only Dem I've known is Clinton. And our Democrat state reps(Governors included) are consistently voting the exact opposite of what I'd want them to.

As to McCain, it's not so much that he is a moderate as that he claims to be a right-wing republican and he's not. I'd have much more respect for him if he would just be open about what he is. He says that he is pro-life, then he blocks attempts at putting pro-life judges into office and he led the defeat of the first Bush's pro-life legislation. He says that he supports the second amendment, but he co-sponsors a bill that would give the government the right to prohibit gun shows and keep track of who attends them(which very strongly infringes upon privacy.) He says that he is concerned about our national security, but then he sponsors an amnesty bill.

[Dally]

Thanks, LMC. I really appreciate your explanation.

I didn't realize McCain claimed to be a right-wing Republican, but I do know that in some ways, he's more traditionally conservative than Bush (for instance, with spending). But then again, the neocons have changed the face of what it means to be Republican. When I was young (think 70s and 80s), they were about small government (well, not Reagan, but in theory), fiscal responsibility, and a strong defense. A lot of other things, too, but those were pretty big. McCain seems to hit all of those, while Bush hits only one (defense, and I actually think he's made us more vulnerable, but that's just my opinion and I would never claim he doesn't think it's important, he just doesn't do it the way I would).

[msnicolea]

I would venture to say, LMC, that the economy hasn't been better in your lifetime than it was during the Clinton years.

[gayle]

ysolde--you are SO money.

And if McCain's a liberal, then WTF does that make me? Che Guevara?

Right there with ya Che ;), LOL

[jnettie]

My father always told me he was glad to have come to this country, because it could never happen here. Except now, it is happening here. It hurts me so much to know what my government has turned my country into -- a place as lawless as Civil War Spain and Revolutionary Cuba.

Under the Bush Administration, I've had friends who were arrested by INS because they are Middle Eastern, and that's it. I've watched friends get harassed by airport security because they fit a "look" for a terrorist, and I can get by no problem because I'm a white woman. I know lots of people who have MUCH more than you, LMC, to worry about for their children. Paying 5% more in taxes vs. getting arrested just because you are Middle Eastern and some idiot thinks you "look" like a terrorist? Which would you prefer?

I think it's actually because the only Democrats I have had an experience living under have been really bad. As far as Presidents go, the only Dem I've known is Clinton. And our Democrat state reps(Governors included) are consistently voting the exact opposite of what I'd want them to.

And I can think of examples on either side of the aisle of good and bad. Mayor Daley of Chicago had been a WONDERFUL mayor. When I was in HS, I did a summer work program with inner city kids that PAID them to do art, dance, and theater. It was one of the best experiences I've ever had, and it was wonderfully successful. The city of Chicago is really thriving under him, a DEMOCRAT.

You just seem to need GOOD leaders over in Michigan.

Hey Niobe

1) Being uninsured, universal health care would be a great boon to me. Would sure be nice to get a new prescription for my asthma inhaler, since mine ran out a few months ago.

2) Democrats tend to increase funding and financial aid for colleges. This would help me directly, as a college student, and indirectly, as more people are able to get college educations and become more productive members of our society.

OT...the best insurance I've ever had was when I was a student. Go to http://www.ejsmith.com/. It's $85/month and you can go to whatever doctor you want. You have to pay up front, but they reimburse about 85%, and right away. I never had to fight for ANYTHING!

[ejs]

Under the Bush Administration, I've had friends who were arrested by INS because they are Middle Eastern, and that's it. I've watched friends get harassed by airport security because they fit a "look" for a terrorist, and I can get by no problem because I'm a white woman. I know lots of people who have MUCH more than you, LMC, to worry about for their children. Paying 5% more in taxes vs. getting arrested just because you are Middle Eastern and some idiot thinks you "look" like a terrorist? Which would you prefer?
For what reason were they arrested? Did they ever get charged with anything?

[jnettie]

For what reason were they arrested? Did they ever get charged with anything?

He and his girlfriend were outside Albany, and someone called the INS. He's Egyptian, but didn't have his Green Card on him. It was with his mom back in New Jersey. The man's lived here since he was 8 years old, and they almost deported him! His GF had to get back to NJ and bring his Green Card to prove he's here legally. She's been on him for years to finally get naturalized, but he just won't for reasons unknown.

The best they can figure is that someone saw a white woman with a Middle Eastern man and didn't like it, so they made a call. He's simply one of the nicest guys I've ever met, and there is no way you'd call him suspicious.

[diam124]

Under the Bush Administration, I've had friends who were arrested by INS because they are Middle Eastern, and that's it. I've watched friends get harassed by airport security because they fit a "look" for a terrorist, and I can get by no problem because I'm a white woman. I know lots of people who have MUCH more than you, LMC, to worry about for their children. Paying 5% more in taxes vs. getting arrested just because you are Middle Eastern and some idiot thinks you "look" like a terrorist? Which would you prefer?

Actually, it's not just Middle Eastern folks that get harassed. My Dad (American born, 100% Irish, military vet) frequently flies overseas (generally to Germany) for work. Every single time he comes back into the US he gets questioned by Homeland Security officials. The reason is that his name (which is actually a pretty common name) matches the name of an IRA terrorist who is on the terrorist watch list. It drives my Dad nuts because he spends at least an hour being questioned every time he arrives in the US. He has written to everyone he could think of - airline officials, his senators, Dept. of Homeland Security, etc. to try to get his name off the list. Eventually he got a letter from DHS that said he was not the person on the watch list, but he still gets detained from time to time.

[miel]

Totally late to this discussion but I want to say to LMC when you said: I am opposed to the torture and murder of unborn children.

Yeah, that's the thing on the other side. I get that. That's basically what I'm talking about. Although that is not my view on that issue, that is the kind of moral focus I mean.

I get what other people are saying about how it is a red herring. The Republicans capitalized on the abortion issue without doing much about it. And people get killed in unjust wars just the same. There are tons of inconsistencies. But it does make sense to me that people feel the way they do about it and how it won elections for the Republicans even as they were basically cutting the same people who voted for them off at the knees with their policies.

[jnettie]

diam124, that's a good point - and shows that it really can happen to anyone if your name suddenly appears on a list. Is this a recent thing? Because, I know that my friend's arrest was directly related to the Patriot Act (and we've talked to other people in our neighborhood who've been harassed due to Patriot Act laws in place), but other times, like DH's colleague who gets stopped every single time at the airport is because he kinda looks like a shady character (bald head, earrings, tattoos), but really he's a PhD student, and really a very good guy.

It just bugs me to no end that we have a President who pushed a law that basically makes it easier for people to be racist and hassle people for no other reason than they "look" like a terrorist, or have a name like a terrorist - IRA or otherwise.

[miel]

It just bugs me to no end that we have a President who pushed a law that basically makes it easier for people to be racist and hassle people for no other reason than they "look" like a terrorist, or have a name like a terrorist - IRA or otherwise.

It's dramatically expanded the power of the state in a bunch of different ways and reduced the power of individuals--and their rights in many hundreds of big and small ways. Everyone's! Not just non-citizens.

We need to remember this after the next terrorist attack...I just hope people won't be as vulnerable to manipulation during the emotional aftermath. I wish there was some way to prepare everyone now so whoever is in power can't capitalize on it like they did the last time.

[diam124]

diam124, that's a good point - and shows that it really can happen to anyone if your name suddenly appears on a list. Is this a recent thing? Because, I know that my friend's arrest was directly related to the Patriot Act (and we've talked to other people in our neighborhood who've been harassed due to Patriot Act laws in place), but other times, like DH's colleague who gets stopped every single time at the airport is because he kinda looks like a shady character (bald head, earrings, tattoos), but really he's a PhD student, and really a very good guy.

It just bugs me to no end that we have a President who pushed a law that basically makes it easier for people to be racist and hassle people for no other reason than they "look" like a terrorist, or have a name like a terrorist - IRA or otherwise.

Oh it's definitely post-9/11. He never had this problem before that and he's frequently flown internationally for at least 25 years now. He actually just took a flight back to the US last week and said that there is a new registry on the DHS website for this type of thing and he wasn't detained at all, so he's pleased the new registry seems to be working.

I have to say though, as annoyed as he gets by all of this, he has never complained that he feels his rights are being compromised necessarily. His complaint was more that the system should have some process in place so that once you are cleared, you don't have to go through this every time you fly. He started carrying copies of his birth certificate, military ID, anything he could think of to back up his story.

[jnettie]

This is true, diam, that it is good that if his name matches a know terrorist, they should check. But I know that's not always the reason. I travel a couple times a year internationally with DH and a fellow student, M, of his for their research. When we travel, all three of us carry all sorts of odd equipment, sometimes in scary looking orange cases, and lots of computer stuff. I can be carrying the same stuff as M, and they won't blink an eye at security. But M, who is dark skinned, tattooed, and shaved head gets stopped every single time. EVERY time. And, I mean, they really bother him. DH, it all depends, but M will always get hassled.