SUV vs. Minivan

[BTB]

Not sure this is the right place for a "car" thread, but couldn't find a more suitable forum- I trust our tireless mods will whisk it away to the correct place if this isn't it. :)

Next spring we'll be replacing one of our cars, and as we hope it'll last well into baby #2 should we be so blessed, we want something larger than a car (yes, I know you can and maybe even should be just fine with a sedan for two kids, but we want something bigger for a lot of reasons, one of which is hoping #2 isn't the end of our family.) But anyway.

Though I know we'll buy one or the other, it's hard for me to get excited about either option. If we go into SUV territory, that apparently makes us gas-guzzling, status-obsessed tree-murdering water polluters as well as inconsiderate drivers likely to die in a rollover, which would only serve us right. If we purchase a minivan, I'm a frumpy mom who picks kids up from soccer practice with my hair in curlers, has Cheetos smashed all over the vehicle's carpet, and will probably develop the insurmountable urge to drive my bumper-stickered mom-mobile no faster than 52 mph in the left lane with my blinker still on.

Which type of vehicle do you prefer, and why? There seems to be much more difference in size - both passenger capacity and cargo room - among SUVs, some of which are behemoths and some of which are really just cars wtih taller roofs. Have you ever wished your SUV or minivan were smaller or larger? Why? (we intend to own this vehicle in the heart of suburbia, so neither off-roading nor much parallel parking is in our future).

[Jane&Andy]

We're planning to trade in our 2 door Ford for a minivan before the baby comes. We do need to upgrade to a bigger car b/c we can't make the 6hr drive to visit my family in the 2 door car with a baby, golden retriever and an epileptic cat in our 2 door cars. My previous dog died when he was boarded so I refuse to board my dog. My cat gets mean when he's at the vet's office so I think they would have trouble medicating him (he gets a pill twice a day), luckily he travels well.

Anyway, not that you needed to know all that but thats my reasoning behind needing something bigger than a sedan for just one baby.

I don't know yet what minivan we'll get. My Mom has a Chevy Venture that I really like. I don't want an SUV b/c they are more expensive and have worse gas mileage. The Chevy Venture isn't one of the fanciest vans out there but the seats fold down easily (but not the fancy stow and go kind where the seats fold flat into the bottom of the car). But it does come with a DVD player. I'm used to driving a small car so it feels a bit strange to drive her van but I think I could easily get used to it if I drove it everyday.

At first I really, really did not want a minivan. It seemed too adult and frumpy. But spending the extra money for a huge SUV just isn't practical for me. I've driven my Mom's mini-van around and its not so bad.

My sister has a small station wagon and I thought about something like that but aside from the larger trunk space I didn't really think her car was enough bigger than a sedan. It might do us for one baby and the pets but we'd outgrow it with two babies. And I don't plan to have to upgrade my car every couple of years.

[lml41981]

I have a Ford Escape (tall car) and a BMW X3. I sometimes wish both were bigger, as in taller. Even with them being taller than cars, they're still much smaller than many SUVs and pickups and I sometimes still have trouble seeing what's ahead - especially if a bigger vehicle has ridiculously dark window tint. But I'm not sure I'd be comfortable driving bigger...in fact, I know I wouldn't. I never enjoyed driving my dad's big Dodge Ram or my cousin's Tahoe. I can't see going any smaller than what we have unless the trend went back toward smaller cars. I just wouldn't want to be on such an uneven playing field, you know? I realize that sounds selfish and people could say, "But what about those in smaller cars than your car?" I can't control what they buy...I can only control what I buy, and I'm going to buy what enables me to see the best while feeling the most comfortable behind the wheel.

Love your descriptions of what you are if you go either way, btw. ;)

[ptrecluse]

What about a station wagon? Saab, Volvo and VW have some cute ones plus they are better on gas.

Hold on a sec and I'll find a picture.


I just realized I don't know how to post pictures here.
http://www.vw.com/images/config/profiles/img_jettawagon_pro_165.jpghttp://www.vw.com/images/config/profiles/img_passatwagon_pro_165.jpg

I think the wagons are pretty roomy.

[KristyK]

I love my minivan. I only have one child, but in times when you have all their friends wanting to go with you, a minivan has done the trick.

I can also go to Costco and buy $1000 worth of groceries, and it all fits, and it's not stacked up to the ceiling.

I don't get bad gas mileage at all, and I commute to work 1/2 hour away, at least I don't think it's bad. I can drive for the entire week, or more on a tank of gas, and I pick up 2-3 other girls to drive to work with me (and they don't pay me for gas, as long as I don't have to work short-staffed, I'll pick them up of my own free will! :D ). One of the girls I work with has an Expedition that seats 9. She only had one child too (until recently when she adopted a baby). She had to buy a commuter car (little Chevy), because the gas to and from work was becoming prohibitive.

I do not eat Cheetos (they turn my fingers orange :P) in my car, nor go to the store with rollers in my hair. I also don't have a child that's ever played soccer, but for scouting trips, it was a God-send! We probably have more of those huge SUV's in our town than minivans, and most of them are empty. It seems around here, they are more of a status symbol than a useful family car.

I've had a minivan for over 10 years, but I've also had a smaller SUV (Rodeo), and it didn't fit half the groceries in it, besides it was too high for me to put stuff in without straining my back, where the minivan is lower and doesn't hurt to put groceries into.

THat's my .02. I'll buy another minivan when I'm done paying off this one, just because I love the room I have when driving, and I don't have to climb "up into it" or lower my body "down into it" like a sedan. I can just sit in the car and then adjust myself. It's comfy for me.

Hope that helps!

Kristy


ETA: When I sold my Rodeo, it was because it only fit 5 people, tops. The couple that bought it had one baby, and quickly added another. With 2 car seats in the back seat, they barely had room to squeeze another person in there. They loved the Rodeo, as did I, but they needed the extra room and ended up with an Expedition, because it seated more than 4/5 people. Once you put those 2 car seats in a car, thats it for room. Something else to think about. I've seen minivans with 4 carseats in them, and they still had room.

[vjel]

hi BTB ,

I currently drive an SUV, a Honda Pilot. We bought it almost 2 years ago...2 weeks before I found out I was pg. We thought by getting the Pilot we could bypass the whole mini-van thing altogether b/c it has 3rd row seating for whenever we needed to haul around 8 people. I also wanted a SUV that drove like a car, which the Pilot does. It's very roomy.

Right now, we are seriously thinking about trading in my Pilot for the Toyota Sienna. I NEVER thought I'd drive a mini-van, I mean NEVER. But it seems to be the practical thing for us. We only have one child now, but anticipate a 2nd in the next 1-2years. We thought we would get a mini-van way down the road, but figure we might as well trade in my SUV while we can still get a decent chunk of change for it, put that towards a down on the mini-van, maybe dish out another 3k out of pocket to keep our monthly payments basically the same. Cars depreciate so much in value as soon as you buy it, we've already lost money. So we figure trade in now to get the van so we don't have to down a ton of money later for it. If that makes sense. Right now, we know we can get the particular Sienna we want for $1000 under invoice. That is an incredible deal!

Some cons about my SUV (very minor): 3rd row seating is GREAT but the only people that ever sit back there are me and my sister and that's b/c we are the only ones small (we're both under 5') and limber enough to climb back there. Getting dd's carseat snapped into the base was not always easy b/c the truck is high off the ground (for me atleast). Other than that, I love it.

We may be getting the mini-van by this weekend IF all the numbers work out the way we want. THis would be a good time to look for a car, regardless which you decide on, b/c dealerships want to get rid of 2005 models and make room for the 2006 models which should be coming in the next month or 2.

Oh, and whatever you get, I would suggest NOT getting a factory installed DVD player. We got one w/ our Pilot and haven't been able to use it b/c dd is still rear-facting (she's 14.5mos). If we do get the van, we will have wasted $1500 on it. You can get a bigger and better portable DVD player for much less!

I don't know if I helped, but thought I'd give my POV.

[amorey]

I am not a mom and drive a sedan, but I am a fan of minivans over SUVs. Unless you’re going to be doing some off-roading, minivans just make more sense. The cost less, have more room, and get better gas mileage. My parents have two minivans, one from the 80’s that they bought when I was a kid, and a newer one. I am always bugging them to borrow a van!

Here are some stats, just for reference:

Chevy Suburban
Starts at: $38,765
Max cargo: 132 cu. ft.
Gas mileage: 15 mpg / 19 mpg

Dodge Caravan
Starts at: $19,930
Max cargo: 147 cu. ft.
gas mileage: 19 mpg / 26 mpg

Of course, the suburban is a big SUV, so the smaller ones would get better gas mileage, but they hold way less. SUVs are the most profitable vehicles, so you pay a premium for them.

[BethIrish]

No kids yet, but I thought I'd chime in anyway, because I've driven both. Call me an odd duck :) but I honestly LIKE driving a minivan! :confused: :o I learned how to drive in one.

We just bought a Nissan Pathfinder, and while I do like it, I know that our next vehicle will definitely be a minivan! Honestly, I would have gotten one instead of the Pathfinder, but I didn't want to get made fun of :) (We don't have any human kids yet, just a dog and 2 cats :) )

[Atlanta_eBride]

Hmmmm...I have NO kids and I own both an SUV and a minivan. I had two SUVs and just recently purchased the minivan. I travel a good bit and it's a great solution for me to do so. I kind of have the cart before the horse in the kids category - even have the pull down TV display thing in the van (it came with it). My first question was what on earth I would do with it. FH says we need to let the dog watch "Lassie" on our next trip.

As far as likes and dislikes, my biggest thing is physical size. The larger vehicles (Expeditions, Cadillac, etc.) feel awkward to me and I don't think I could begin to park one. I too live in town and have found that the "medium" sized SUV (Pathfinder, Jeep, Blazer, etc.) is not bad to park even in places where I know I'll need to be parallel parked.

As far as gas-guzzlers, I don’t bother paying attention at this point because I use these vehicles. I do know that the minivan is better on gas when I travel.

[smiles33]

I think there are good "hybrid" van/SUVs to look at. We started with a Honda CR-V (based on a car frame) which we later upgraded to the Honda Pilot for greater towing capacity and greater storage space. Like vjel, we really like a lot of aspects of the Pilot. And since I'm 5'8 and DH is 5'10" it's the perfect height for us so we don't have the same problem vjel faces.

The Pilot is based on their van frame, not a truck frame, so it drives very nicely and doesn't feel as high up or as unstable as others I've driven (Range Rover, 4Runner, Explorer, Jeep). The other factor for us is that DH has to tow a 2,000+ lb bass boat for his weekly fishing trips, so a mini-van wasn't as attractive an option.

My boss has a station wagon she loves, the Matrix, but it's not as roomy as her old Honda Accord wagon (which I don't know if they make anymore). However, as others have pointed out, you get limited visibility with station wagons when you have huge Suburbans and Expeditions out there.

Good luck making the decision!

[ktsb]

I have driven a small SUV (Ford Escape) a regular size SUV (Lexus RX300). I'm not a fan of the minivan. Just don't like the look of them. I totally understand how versitle they are though. I see where doors open on both sides now and since they slide you can have them open automatically with your remote.

So I will echo another posters comments about a small SUV. The Escape was really perfect. Small enough to park in all spaces but very versitile for lugging things in and out of. Also much cheaper than some other options. I scaled back down to a BMW 328 mostly because the Lexus was just too big and I felt bad about wasting that much gas when I mostly commute on the freeway.

I am TTC but since I'm so into cars I'm deciding what car to get before I decide what stroller to get :rolleyes: This time around I'm back to the small SUV. Leaning towards the Escape or the X3. Also might check out the new Subaru.

The Subaru's are also a great option. Very versatile yet small and non gas hogs.

HTH!!

[JenniferEC]

I drive a Pilot and LOVE it! It's more than roomy enough for our DS and the two strollers we keep in the back. We have never used the 3rd row seat as we've not had the need yet. I don't think it's that bad with gas mileage and it comes highly recommended by Consumer Reports. I have always been one to dislike minivans and I don't think that will ever change. Even when #2 comes along, we're going to stick with the Pilot because there's plenty of room for a second car seat.

[lml41981]

This time around I'm back to the small SUV. Leaning towards the Escape or the X3. Also might check out the new Subaru.
I wouldn't go with an Escape again...I just cannot stand the road noise and it doesn't handle as well as the X3. We *love* the X3, though. Can't say enough good about it (we don't mind having to pay for premium gas).

[katmg]

Though I know we'll buy one or the other, it's hard for me to get excited about either option. If we go into SUV territory, that apparently makes us gas-guzzling, status-obsessed tree-murdering water polluters as well as inconsiderate drivers likely to die in a rollover, which would only serve us right. If we purchase a minivan, I'm a frumpy mom who picks kids up from soccer practice with my hair in curlers, has Cheetos smashed all over the vehicle's carpet, and will probably develop the insurmountable urge to drive my bumper-stickered mom-mobile no faster than 52 mph in the left lane with my blinker still on.

ROFL!

I can't really add much to the conversation as I plan on keeping my VW passat sedan when we have kids. But, I just thought I'd let you know that this cracked me up!

This is probably immature of me, but the thought of driving a mini-van makes me shudder. Although, it sounds like a lot of the ladies in here have enjoyed driving them, so perhaps I'll have to re-evaluate. Somehow, I'm ready to make all the other sacrifices that you have to make when you have kids, but I just can't seem to get beyond the idea of driving an "uncool" car. :rolleyes:

[ktsb]

Thanks for the tip LML I was less into comfort when I bought the Escape (I was young and rugged heh heh heh) than I am now so that is important. I also need leather now which is standard on the X3. I am definitely leaning towards the X3 especially since I love my current BMW. I've been drooling over a real pretty brand new dark silver X3 in my parking lot at work. It's not helping me be objective at all ;) .

And heck I'm already used to paying for premium gas.

[vjel]

so many Pilot owners! :p

for JennferEC or anyone else that has a DC...we tried to move dd's car seat to the middle over the weekend w/ no luck. there are no carseat anchors, which isn't a big deal b/c we could use the tether and seatbelt to attach it. however, we couldn't get the middle seatbelt to tighten up enough to secure the carseat. it was SUPER wobbly. We had to move the carseat back to the window seat. Now thats fine and all but if you have 2 carseats back there, that means both of them will have to be secured by the window, leaving the middle seat open. If you do that, you'll have a heck of a time trying to get into the back seat AND the 3rd row will now be useless. anyone else have this problem or did my DH just not do it right???

*sorry BTB for hijacking*

[vikib]

I have a Honda Accord, with 2 car seats, one facing forward one facing backwards. My DD is in the middle in the backward facing position because that's the only place it would fit when facing backwards. We can squeeze a person in the 3rd seat in the back, but its a tight fit. I've been debating buying an SUV or minivan myself. I have gone to costco and had to pile a bunch of stuff in the back seat because I just didn't have room in the trunk, oh that's because I had 2 strollers in there. God I need more space!

My DH drives a Subaru Outback, which is fine for trunk space (he doesn't carry the strollers), but its not as wide as my Honda so the 2 car seats don't fit next to each other. My DS is behind the driver facing forward, which works, and my DD is behind the passenger, but the passenger seat (where I sit) is moved almost all the way up since she still is facing backwards.

So I see problems with both cars and we need another one. And I'm leaning toward the minivan because I feel we need a 3rd row and the 3rd rows in a Pilot or something of the like is just way too small for people to get into much less sit in. :p

[JenniferEC]

vjel - right now we have DS in the middle of the seat. DH put the car seat in using a tether on the right side and a tether the left side. I'll have to ask him about the seatbelt. (Honda would not give us the OK because of liability, but they wouldn't say you can't do it either.) When we have #2 we'll move one to one side and one in the middle. DH says that more than one car seat can go on a tether. That way we'll have room for someone to get in the 3rd row should we need it.

[blessed02]

BTB, I think whatever you do, you should find something in a minivan or an SUV with a third row. We have a Honda CRV (small size SUV) and two kids now, and we are full to capacity. Even if we upsized to a roomier SUV, it wouldn't make that much difference unless we had a third row because the two carseats are crazy-big and fill up the available space fast. Add a couple of strollers and a diaper bag to the mix, and you are feeling pretty cramped.

I wouldn't go for a station wagon myself because it's not safe to have the trunk items in open access to the passenger car. If you're throwing a stroller and/or heavy grocery bags into the carrier space of a station wagon, and you get into an accident, all that stuff goes flying; and the stroller goes straight forward into the baby carseat(s).

[SingleWhiteFemale]

I disagree comparing the Chevy Suburban to the Dodge Caravan. Completely different sized vehicles! The Suburban is a bohemith, it's larger than my Ford Explorer (which is larger than our old Dodge Caravan).

Personally, I hated driving our old minivan. Tacked on 30 years to my age ;) My parents went from a station wagon to minivan to SUV, and are stuck on the SUVs. The third row in the minivan is not comfortable at all, nor are they comfy in any SUV I've had the joy of beind stuck riding in the back. Probably a car like the Expedition/Excursion, the HUGE SUVs, would have the extra legroom.

If you're planning on 2 kids, I'd go for the SUV. If you're looking for a very comfy back seat, roomy, slightly elevated more than a car but not as high as a semi-truck, and a decent trunk space (groceries, most normal sized dogs, etc.), the Chevy Equinox is a great choice. The Ponitac Torrent is coming out within the next few months, and has been taughted as a more upscale Nox (suppossedly you can get heated seats with cloth--Pontiac has a really nice cloth--instead of having to upgrade to leather).

I really like my Explorer. It is kinda big... I have to use the running board to get my 5'5" self into the seat. But, it doesn't feel huge. I can parallel park it without a problem--this coming from the girl who failed her drivers test twice because I couldn't parallel park. It feels bigger than my parents Bravada's (the Bravada is no longer made, but is almost identical to the Chevy Trailblazer).

The Nox gets an estimated 19/26 mpg. I know my 2000 Explorer gets 17-23mpg (combo city and highway... lower mpg when I spend forever on the beltway in traffic, 23 when I do straight highway driving... but on an average week, I'm getting 20-21), and around 350 to the tank (I'm not running on E, usually roughly 1/8-1/4 tank before I go get gas). When I drove a rental Trailblazer from DC to NYC, I filled up before I left and got to 400 miles on that tank before I caved and pulled over to fill up.

In the Caravan, I wasn't feeling as safe. I slid all up and over the road when it was snowy and icy even when it had 4WD engaged. I don't know where you are, but I'm in the DC area where the winters can be easy or brutal, it's a complete cointoss. But with our SUVs, we haven't had to engage the 4wd in all the time we've owned them (1999 on). The smartest thing to do to impact your gas milage is to not get AWD. The idea of all time 4 wheel drive impacts the gas milage, and you don't need AWD unless you're living in Antartica ;) 4WD allows you to switch from 2WD to 4WD when needed.

And to those who hate SUVs (I know some people don't like them, but there are so many peope who make it a point to be snide and snarky :p on you! If you're in a rollover in an SUV while wearing your seatbelt, you're more likely to survive than a person in a regular car who rolls over. I've seen SUVs who have rolled over, and even in the worst case scenarios the people wearing their seatbelts live. I was informed an estimated 80% walk away with only bumps, bruises, and other minor problems. As long as your head isn't touching the roof in an SUV (the further from the roof the better), it's not going to cave to the point you're hurt. The most important thing is your behavior on the road--at least 3 of every 4 accidents are 1 car accidents! (All information given here re: accidents was given to me in a local Red Cross class) Yes I drive an SUV, and why yes, I do own the road :D Just don't let anyone with that attitude bother you. I have had my share of snark thrown at me for no reason (even just standing at the pump filling up!), so I just have witty comments to make back (BTB, I always love you humor, so I know you can more than come up with some great one-liners! :D ).

[KristyK]

Well SWF, gotta disagree with you a bit. I have a 98 Plymouth Voyager, the same as a Dodge Caravan. Our 3rd seat has quite a bit of leg room and my son, who's almost 6 foot sits back there regularly. I hate to say this, but we've even made whoopie back there, lots of room! LOL I do agree that a Suburban is definitely bigger than a Caravan, so there really isn't a "space" comparison, but with seating, there might be. It also depends on what model you buy, I have an LS (or something like that), which means I have a longer model than the ES (I think its called).

Also, I have front wheel drive. I'm one of the few who can get to work when it snows, and I drive 1/2 hour one way. One of the problems with a lot of SUV drivers is they get "too" confident and don't know how to drive their cars in the snow and they go in the ditch more than I've seen minivans in the ditch. I was one of the few who could get anywhere when I had my Rodeo too, so I think most of it depends on "how" you drive, rather than "what" you drive.

Like I said, I had a Rodeo, there was no room once you fit 2 carseats in there, unless you want to squish the 5th person in between, and I had the deluxe model. One of the reasons we even went back to a minivan was because when my DH and I got together, he had 2 kids, I had 1, 5 of us total, and nobody could bring a friend, with 7 seats, the 2 older kids were able to bring along a friend each, which was nice for them. Our kids were 7, 13 & 15 when we got together and they always wanted to bring someone else, with just the Rodeo, we couldn't.

One thing when your comparing these vehicles is the size. If you get a Durango with a 3rd seat, if both the middle and 3rd are "bench" seats you can fit 7-9 people, depending on the size of the bench. I tried to get in one of those and couldn't get over the middle bench comfortably. If you go with an SUV which only seats 5, your going to have the space issue in the back seat if you still have little ones. Yes, 3 normal size children, NOT in carseats can sit fairly comfortably in the back seat of any car or SUV. You can buy a Suburban that still only seats 5, but why bother? You can buy an Expedition or Suburban that seats 9, yes there will be more leg room, and more back storage room, but your also looking at the cost of gas, and also, the insurance.

In a minivan, you can opt for both benches or for a bench in the middle or back, or bucket seats. My minivan seats 7 comfortably and we can put the bench in the middle if we want and leave the back all the way open. The newer vans of course have the fold away seats which is great. I've often left one of the bucket seats out of the middle and I have an easy accessible large open area to put things before I get into my car.

I love an SUV or a minivan, but just for comfort and size, I prefer my minivan anyday. I think everyone has their own preference for a car, and what their safety, or comfort level is.

[BTB]

Wow - thanks for all the incredible information! I'm especially interested in all the Pilot talk because that's my current frontrunner - DH is currently more into minivans. He, and the minivan owners here, are winning me over though - amorey those are some impressive stats!

We started out considering the Toyota RAV4 vs the Honda CRV. When we found out just how small the RAV4 is, we started looking at the Highlander. Compared to that, the CRV seemed small, so we started looking at the Pilot, which of course is bigger than the Highlander so now we're up to the 4Runner... next thing I know we will be trying to get an 18-wheeler in the garage because as soon as the salesman said "fits even the biggest carseats!" we were goners.

As you can tell we're big Honda/Toyota fans, so likely the Sienna or Odyssey would be the minivan choice. DH started considering those before we made it up to the Sequoia because the SUVs were getting pricier and pricier... when a vehicle's named "Sequoia" you know you're getting a monster. DH also likes Mazda's M5. This is all just talk for now, and casual looking. More thoughts/opinions more than welcome!

[WestieMomma]

I have a Highlander right now but we also considered the Pilot. We thought that the Highlanders were nicer for the money. They both drive about the same though. The 4 Runner is going to drive more like a truck so you may wnat to consider that. The Sequoia's are awesome but pricey and not so great gas mileage. I would love to get one of those but I drive almost 60 miles RT to work everyday so I can't do that gas.

My DH is a 6'5 and he cannot get comfortable driving or riding in the Highlander so we went and looked at the new Suburu B-9 Tribeca..they do have a little more room up font for him so we are thinking about getting one. The back seat seems more spacious than the Highlander as well and they have an available 3rd row seat. You should go check them out, they are pretty cool!

[sinderstorm]

If you're going for minivan's, check out the Toyota Sienna. My mom has one and I lust over it. I don't have kids yet, but my mom shows dogs. When she pulls out the 3rd row seats, she has room for 2 German Shepherd sized kennels, and all of her show gear (canopy for shade, cooler, grooming stuff, etc) with the second row seats still in place. DH (who is 6'4) was very comfortable in it as well when we drove it for a week last summer. She gets good gas milage, and her insurance is half of what it would have been had she bought the Sequoia (she was looking at it as well).

[vjel]

I second what WestieMomma said about the 4Runner driving like a truck. That was my 1st choice for a SUV in the beginning. But then my girlfriend and hubby got one and after a few rides in the back seat and getting bounced around like a rag doll, we decided against it. It was pretty rough, IMO, so I didn't want our future kids getting bounced like that either! :(

ETA: thanks JenniferEC for your response re: your carseat! :)

[LoveYouKisses]

well i don't have either (i currently drive a honda accord)...my mom has a pilot and used to drive a crv. I would highly reccommend either one of those. My mom constantly raves about her car. She loves it. She is definitely not the minivan type...all of her kids are grown, and she has no need for one...

if you are going to go with the minivan I highly suggest the honda odyssey. My cousin has one (she has one son and is planning on having another eventually...)...she loves it. Her husband loves it too...he chose it....

good luck in making your choice!!

[usafwife]

We have a car and an SUV. I drive the SUV and DH drives the car. I love our SUV. I like the fact that I do not have bend over to get DD in and out of the back seat. I also like the fact that the SUV sits higher off the ground. It makes me feel more comfortable when driving on the highway. (I also get that sense of security in my parent's truck.) It's easier for me to get in and out of (and that was a very good thing when I was pregnant and also when we came home from the hospital after delivery). And I love the cargo room in the back. Our SUV also has a luggage rack on top.

I like the fact that the SUV is a good thing to have around here in the winter. The all-wheel drive is definitely a feature to have around here with some of the snow and ice we get in the winter.

[Kimberland30]

We rented a Toyota minivan for a trip and decided then that we needed to buy a larger vehicle. We ended up getting the "mammoth suburban", and we both love it. It's DH's SUV, but I had to love it too since it will be mine once we pay off my car (our deal was we'd trade in my sport car for one he likes since I picked out the Suburban).

As others have stated here, I like the room. If we take out the 3rd seat and lower the 2nd row captains chairs, we have 8' of storage space. I find that it's easier for me to drive compared to a minivan, I like being able to see my front end, and it's higher (I also have to use the running board to get in).

In the defense of mini-vans, they ARE geared to be more "family friendly" IMO. They have tons of cubbies, two side doors that allow easy access to even a 3rd seat, and sit low to the ground.

So I guess it all depends on personal preference and what you feel more comfortable driving.

[KKay]

We own both a Ford Explorer and a GMC Envoy XL. We simply feel safer in an SUV. I've been in an accident in a friends Accord. The car flipped and we were banged up pretty bad. I've driven SUVs ever since then. I also like the roominess of an SUV. We can take our dog, DD, and all of our 'stuff' on a road trip with no problems.

I've never seriously considered a minivan. However, they are more family friendly than SUVs. There is also the advantage of a lower payment. I'm not sure how they stack up on safety. You have to consider of stigma of being labeled a 'soccer mom', but you can always step out of the fan in the 'diva mom' clothes and throw people for a loop. ;)

[BethElena]

I know a few have suggested station wagons, and I also suggest that. It's a great alternative to a larger vehicle, with probably better gas mileage. We just bought this Saab:
http://www.southcn.com/car/caizht/naias/uscarshow/200401060752_535174.jpg
and love it! It gets like 24+ mpg and is titled a "small station wagon." It's very fast with a turbo (will keep you feeling young :) )

I've also driven the Chrysler Town & Country minivan, and I'd drive one every day if I had the $$ for gas! We don't have kids yet, so I don't know how kid friendly either of these are, but I know our Saab has a ton of trunk space and doesn't look "soccer mom" at all!

**sorry for picture size, but it's from a website and I don't know how to make it smaller.

[kiddo]

I have a Honda CRV 4WD and I love it. It gets about 22 miles/gallon city, and about 25 miles/gallon highway, which is better than some mini-vans. It drives like a car and is really easy to get in and out of, even for shorter people. It's great for hauling our dog around and I really like the 4WD for the snow.

However, you can only fit 2 car seats in the back and there isn't a whole lot of room for a third person.

My sister has a Pontiac Montana. She has 3 kids in car seats. She puts 2 seats in the middle row and one seat in the 3rd row. The 3rd row seats 2 adults comfortably without the car seat (I'm 5'6" and I am comfortable back there). Her Montana is definitley more versatile for a family than my CRV.

[lindybug]

I have Toyota RAV4, and I love it! It's a smaller SUV, but still penty of room for cargo. It drives like a car, not a truck, and it gets over 24 mpg in my neck of suburbia. (More on long roadtrips.)

I don't have any kids yet, so I can't vouch for that aspect.

Good luck!

[Chylynn]

I just went through these comparisons last month between the Toyota Sienna or the Highlander (DH is an auditor for South East Toyota so we are a Toyota Family). DH and I ended up purchasing the highlander and we love it! It is very easy to get the carseat in and out and I don't break my back to get the stroller in and out of the trunk.

I drove a Toyota Solara for 3 years (we still have it) and the highlander really drives just like it. Not a big transition for me between the two vehicles and that was important to me. I was not too crazy about the Minivan when i test drove it. I just did not feel comfy driving it...

I really loved the highlander this past Sunday when we went to visit friends and I just plunked the pnp in the cargo area when we headed home without folding it down and putting it in the travel bag. It was great just bringing it into the house and the baby went right into it without having to set it up again.

The Sienna is a little cheaper than the highlander, but I was not ready to be a "Minivan Mom". Maybe with the next kid we will go with the Minivan, but for now, it is nice to go out by ourselves in our SUV and be a "couple" again without having "parents" written all over our faces due to the car we drive.

[MrsSmith]

We have an SUV, Mountaineer, and we got it for the purpose of having it when we our family grows. I love the height and comfort. I've had a minivan before, Plymouth Voyager. It rode very well and was excellent on gas. You could really pack it too. I moved back and forth from college in this minivan and still had room to spare. However, I just prefer the height and power of the truck. Plus, hubby looks sexier driving it, that's really what it's all about...;)

[Belm]

If you are worried about gas mileage and how "green" your car is - this is a good website - http://www.greenercars.com/indexplus.html

[hockeybrat]

I was just going to mention that the RAV4 will have a body change and I've heard that there might be an option for 3rd row seating and a V6 engine.

Here is a link that shows some pictures.

2006 Toyota RAV4 (http://www.1000islandstoyota.com/newsite/pages/spypage.html)

[larslobster]

We have a VW Passat wagon and as much as I like it, it would be nice to have a third row seat for when we have visitors. A wagon really doesn't give you much more space than a sedan.

I'd go for the minivan - they're MUCH safer in an accident.

Here's a great article from the New Yorker that discusses that issue:

http://www.gladwell.com/2004/2004_01_12_a_suv.html

[Asha]

we are considering suv's over minivans bc more likely than not suv's have 4WD. the weather gets very bad here in the winter, and my husband has to go to work regardless, so we need a car that would be able to handle the snow.

yes, i know you see lots of people in suv's in accidents bc of the snow, but i think that's bc they are cocky drivers. they zoom around like it's a beautiful spring day. you have to drive cautiously in the snow whether you have a 2WD or 4WD.

[sinderstorm]

I just also wanted to add that my mom lives in Alaska, and drives her Sienna year round. She's never had an issue with driving in the snow/ice, and does not have 4WD. She does use studded tires in winter though, but has done a few early/late snowstorms on regular tires without too much difficulty.

[ktsb]

hockeybrat good scoop. I do like the Rav 4 except it's a little small and doesn't have a V-6. Looks like they are addressing just these issues.

[macgirl]

DH and are shopping for a bigger car with the plan of TTC after the new year. We've decided we must have a 3rd row of seats, and I can't imagine myself with a minivan, so an SUV it is and my current favorite is the Toyota highlander hybrid. I'm already on the waiting list for next year. Like others have said it drives like a car rather than a truck, and with the hybrid it has better gas mileage than my Jetta does now. We also looked seriously at the Subaru Tribeca, which also comes with a 3rd row (no hybrid option though). It just didn't fit me well though. I'm only 5' tall and the seat, armrests, etc just hit me wrong. It is a really nice vehicle though, with more room than the highlander. My 6'1" DH loved it, but since it will be my car, he was out-voted. ;)

[eponymous]

If we go into SUV territory, that apparently makes us gas-guzzling, status-obsessed tree-murdering water polluters as well as inconsiderate drivers likely to die in a rollover, which would only serve us right. If we purchase a minivan, I'm a frumpy mom who picks kids up from soccer practice with my hair in curlers, has Cheetos smashed all over the vehicle's carpet, and will probably develop the insurmountable urge to drive my bumper-stickered mom-mobile no faster than 52 mph in the left lane with my blinker still on.

But see, BTB, most of the SUV stereotypes are true, whie you can avoid the behaviors associated with a minivan! Other than the Mom-feeling of a minivan, what are your other objections to it? I don't pretend to know you well :) but you certainly seem like the kind of person who cares about the impact of her decision on others. Most (although I admit not all) SUVs get worse gas mileage than minivans and are more likely to roll over in an accident. Personally, I wouldn't be willing to take a chance with the latter with my children, and I would prefer to model good environmental behavior for my children than drive a vehicle that looks like a parent-mobile. I don't know if you plan to TTA at all while you're in your residency, but it might be worth thinking about how quickly you'll need that third row. (And it's worth pointing out that the SUVs with decent gas mileage are the ones without that third row - the SUVs with the third row, so as much room as a minivan, are so heavy that they generally have absurd gas mileage.)

[BTB]

Thank you for the vote of confidence, kityln. :) I like to think that's true - and I like to think I'm also the kind of person who, after doing her homework, will purchase the vehicle that best fits her needs - not that one that carries the best 'image'. Although my first post vent was fun to indulge in, it'd get left at the door of the dealership. My other anti-mini-van feelings are that a) if I want to fit a bunch of stuff as well as people in the vehicle, so many SUVs look so freakin' big I thought they would hold more, but amorey's stats don't bear that out. b) I thought 4WD would be important, but after reading larslobster's article, clearly it may not be all it's cracked up to be. And c) I had no idea you could configure a minivan so many different ways to accommodate different numbers of passengers and amounts of cargo - thought that was an SUV feature. I obviously have lots more to learn before I can make an intelligent decision! :)

larslobster - that comparison article is a riot!

According to Bradsher, internal industry market research concluded that S.U.V.s tend to be bought by people who are insecure, vain, self-centered, and self-absorbed, who are frequently nervous about their marriages, and who lack confidence in their driving skills.

I'll have to edit my little description in the first post. :)

But at the reptilian level they think that if I am bigger and taller I'm safer. You feel secure because you are higher and dominate and look down. That you can look down is psychologically a very powerful notion. And what was the key element of safety when you were a child? It was that your mother fed you, and there was warm liquid. That's why cupholders are absolutely crucial for safety. If there is a car that has no cupholder, it is not safe. If I can put my coffee there, if I can have my food, if everything is round, if it's soft, and if I'm high, then I feel safe. It's amazing that intelligent, educated women will look at a car and the first thing they will look at is how many cupholders it has."

Hehehehe - if I LOL'd at that, is that proof I don't get out enough?

This is really worth a second (and third) thought..

Drivers of the tiny Jetta die at a rate of just forty-seven per million, which is in the same range as drivers of the five-thousand-pound Chevrolet Suburban and almost half that of popular S.U.V. models like the Ford Explorer or the GMC Jimmy. In a head-on crash, an Explorer or a Suburban would crush a Jetta or a Camry. But, clearly, the drivers of Camrys and Jettas are finding a way to avoid head-on crashes with Explorers and Suburbans. The benefits of being nimble--of being in an automobile that's capable of staying out of trouble--are in many cases greater than the benefits of being big.

Their road test comparison is striking - I think a lot of us, myself included, just assumed big = safer without looking at the statistics.

[eponymous]

I loved the New Yorker article - it's a good read, contains a lot of good information, and is fairly funny. Thanks for posting the quotes; I hadn't read it and now I'm sending it off to a bunch of people. (And I'm highly amused to realize that my car has FOUR cupholders for the two front seats - how useless!)

Yes, you strike me as the sort of person who would do through research before buying a vehicle and part of that is definitely soliciting information from current drivers. I hadn't thought about the flexibility of movable seating in a minivan, but I bet that would be great for a growing family. Your need to store a double stroller and pnp may become a need to shuttle your two and their four friends around. :)

[BTB]

Your need to store a double stroller and pnp may become a need to shuttle your two and their four friends around.

An awesome thought! We tend to keep cars a long time - my current car is 10 years old. I'd keep it as it's doing fine, but it's a little 2-door - honest to goodness, can't even wedge a carseat into the back no matter how many angles you try it from. With this next vehicle, I'd love to see DD and sib's friends piling in the backseat - and dare I think I have as much control as I'd liike over life, to look ahead and see a baby #3? :)

These stats are shocking:
In a thirty-five-m.p.h. crash test, for instance, the driver of a Cadillac Escalade--the G.M. counterpart to the Lincoln Navigator--has a sixteen-per-cent chance of a life-threatening head injury, a twenty-per-cent chance of a life-threatening chest injury, and a thirty-five-per-cent chance of a leg injury. The same numbers in a Ford Windstar minivan--a vehicle engineered from the ground up, as opposed to simply being bolted onto a pickup-truck frame--are, respectively, two per cent, four per cent, and one per cent.

[dionysia]

We bought a CRV a year ago and so far, so good. :-D It drives a lot like a car and while taller, doesn't feel huge. I have a Jetta turbo and do miss the 'oomph' when I drive the CRV.

No bebe yet, so I can't speak from the 'have kids, will travel' point of view.

I would recommend looking at the Highlander hybrid if you want a mid-size SUV. DH and I were considering it, but couldn't wait for the hybrid (his car was on its last legs).

Di

[amorey]

If you are concerned about driving in bad weather, some minivans are available with all-wheel-drive. Those handle much better than 4x4 SUVs.

[larslobster]

I'm glad the article was helpful. I know I was shocked when I first read it because I think most people do think bigger=safer. But that really isn't the case.

I laughed at the cupholder comments too. I've never bothered to look at the cupholders in a car before I've purchased it and I've paid the price. My last two cars have been VWs and apparently, VW doesn't put much thought in to that feature because their placement always seems to be an afterthought. In my Passat, it took me forever to even figure out where they were!

[Georgiana]

I'm yo-yoing between a minivan and a SUV at the moment. I'm usually a sports sedan person (Dodge Intrepid) but I vowed that would be the LAST car I ever buy.

I had my hear set on a large SUV like a Tahoe,or Expedition, but the new or used, car payments are too nuts for me.

My FSIL had a mini van and I thought they were kind of cheesy and made her seem older.But it was practical for her because she had three kids.
Since I rented a minivan to take a trip, I have fallen in love with them. They drive well, and have excellent milage.

[suzubeane]

I have two kids and I have only ever driven hatch-backs. I had two VW Golfs, and am now driving a Mazda Protege5

http://www.hispanianews.com/archive/2003/05/04/protege5_med.jpg

My husband's car is also a hatchback, but when it's time to replace it, I'm going to insist on one with four doors rather than two. (He's had it since before we met.)

When it comes to the SUV/Minivan question, I just don't see it as an "either/or" proposition.

[BTB]

Suzubeane - when I first read your post, I thought - BOTH? Hehehehe. Then I realized you must mean neither. I'm a bit slow on the uptake today - at least I hope it's just today.

I know we could fit into something smaller, but we're definitely in the market for more space than we need on a daily basis so that if/when we're hauling camping gear, kiddo's friends, stuff from Home Depot, furniture, or who knows? - more kiddos, we don't have to trade up again. We keep cars as long as possible, my current car is 10 years old and running great, I wouldn't part with it just yet if it were a bit more family-friendly (it's a 2-door coupe). I'm hoping this next purchase will last as long.

[suzubeane]

Sorry - I didn't mean to be so obtuse!

Yes, I meant "neither." Humongous vehicles seem to be looked on as a requirement of parenthood now – your ambivalent first post, (while humorous) illustrates that pretty well. I know this makes me seem really old and out of it, but I've never had one or felt I had to have one as a parent, so I have to question how this attitude came about.

My protégé is very spacious on the inside, and it has a lot of head room. I made sure that sitting in the back seat was comfortable before I bought it. My son is 16 and nearly 6 feet tall, and he and his large friends fit just fine.

It also carries a lot of cargo in the back, and this past year, I have used it to haul lumber (8 ft studs) and pipe (10 foot lines) with no passengers in it. (You wouldn't haul stuff like that with your kids in a large vehicle anyway – it's not safe.)

FWIW, we also keep cars as long as possible. (The goal is 10 years.) I only got this 2002 vehicle in 2003 because my '96 VW was totaled while parked on the street.

Minivans get better gas mileage than SUVs, but that's not saying much. They don't do as well as most cars. Cars are easier to maneuver, and easier to park (might not be a concern for you, but I live in a city) and have fewer blind spots. (Who cares how high up you are if you can't see diagonally out the rear?)

Even if you have trouble believing that a car could feel spacious on the inside, you could always ask yourself this ... which will you be doing more in your SUV or Minivan: Driving down the road with it packed full of kids and camping gear? Or rattling around in it by yourself or with one, possibly two kids at time. (I know you see more in your future, but I'm talking about gas-eating day to day, even hour to hour errands and quick stops - not family outings or vacations where you're all together.)

IMO, if safety, the environment, and size are all concerns, then get a really safe, spacious car, and take all the money you save on gas and car payments to rent a minivan for family vacations. You'll still be ahead, and so will the earth.

[Georgiana]

These are the ones I'm thinking about:


Chrysler Town and Country

http://www.chrysler.com/town_country/features/exterior_photos/img/photo_4.jpg

Chrysler Pacifica

http://www.chrysler.com/pacifica/features/exterior_features/img/main_exterior_features.jpg

Chevy Trailblazer

http://www.chevrolet.com/i/gallery/trailblazer/ext_gallery05.jpg

Nissan Murano

http://www.nissanusa.com/m/cma/i/3mu/3murano_gal_med10.jpg

Nissan Quest

http://www.nissanusa.com/m/cma/i/5qu/5quest_gal_05_med.jpg http://www.nissanusa.com/m/cma/i/5qu/5quest_gal_03_med.jpg

[lawyerlee]

I'm not sure whether this information will help your decision or not, but our good friends who have two year old triplets recently got rid of their Chrysler mini van in favor of a Lincoln Navigator. Now, I'm sure this was partially for the cool factor, but the girls are also much, much easier to get in and out of the vehicle in the Navigator than in the minivan. It was actually quite cramped in there, in my opinion. :)

[BTB]

I don't know - it kinda does feel like we "need" something bigger, even if it's not an official prerequisite of parenthood. We make a lot of trips in DH's Mazda Protege (4-dr, non-hatchback). It's two hours each way to see grandparents, and we go at least twice per month. Maybe if we didn't bring so much stuff... once we get DD's stroller, her pack-n-play, her little suitcase, my breast pump tote, a diaper bag, and a box of diapers and wipes in the trunk, my and DH's bags go on the backseat next to DD. How we'd ever make that trip with another carseat - and another little bag - I've no idea. 10 years down the road, blessed with a possible #3 - well, you couldn't even put 3 carseats in the Protege. Our current state requires by law carseat/booster use until age 8, so maybe by then we'd be down to 2 carseats, but there's not much room for an 8-year-old between or next to 2 Britax car seats.

[lawyerlee]

Our current state requires by law carseat/booster use until age 8, so maybe by then we'd be down to 2 carseats, but there's not much room for an 8-year-old between or next to 2 Britax car seats.
Yeah, exactly!

And I think a mini van would probably be OK because the older kids' seats would be less bulky, but with all the gear, you might be better off with a big SUV.

[suzubeane]

two hours each way to see grandparents, and we go at least twice per month.You go every other week? Aww ... you're much better than I was about visiting ;).

When my kids were babies, my parents had a stroller and a crib - not brand new, but fine, imo. No one had pack-n-plays - I just chased my kids around their non-childproofed home. It was a four hour drive, so it did not happen as often as you travel.

I'm of two minds about this. With kids who are 9 and 16, I am really on the cusp of the implied "humongous vehicle requirement" for parents. While I don't discount a lot of what's been said here as a reason to want a bigger vehicle, I have to confess that some of the reasons given seem a bit self-indulgent compared with the costs. "Not leaning over" to get a child out of a car seat just makes me snicker. At age 42 (in three weeks) I do feel like an old lady, shaking my fist and saying "Well, in MY day ...!"

On the other hand, I've heard my mother say countless times that they raised kids in an era of no car seats, no bike helmets, etc - and that certainly never convinced me that I should do the same.

[vjel]

we traded in our Honda Pilot last night and came home w/ a Toyota Sienna. :o I have to admit, I LOVE it! At the risk of sounding like a dork, its really cool to drive! :p While the van is not as high up as our Pilot, I feel like I can see better than I did in the Pilot. Maybe b/c the front of the van slopes down and is shorter? It drives very smoothly! Size wise, its just a little wider and longer than our Pilot.

BTB , I sorta feel the way you do in that we "need" something bigger. Maybe not for the present, but definitely for the future when our family grows. And to be honest, the Sienna is much more comfie than our Pilot (the seats were kinda hard and stiff, IMO) was to sit in. It'll be much better for us for road trips. Not to mention, we now have side air bags in the van. Didn't have it in our Pilot and it was a bit of a concern for me since dd sat at the window seat.

In regards to suzubean's comment:
some of the reasons given seem a bit self-indulgent
I admit, for us this is true too. I know most of our parents didn't have some of the "luxuries" that we have today, but I'm all about convenience! ;) Whatever makes my life easier these days, I'm all for!!! And truth be told, DH didn't want to inherit my Pilot when it was time for a van. He wants his BMW or whatever luxury sports car he will be obsessed w/ when the time comes. :rolleyes:

BTB, just narrow your options down to a few SUVs/vans that you're interested in, research, test drive to see what you like best and then decide which one will serve you best. a lot of ladies have given some great options here!

[eponymous]

While I don't discount a lot of what's been said here as a reason to want a bigger vehicle, I have to confess that some of the reasons given seem a bit self-indulgent compared with the costs. "Not leaning over" to get a child out of a car seat just makes me snicker.

Me too, but since I don't actually have any, I've wondered if... I don't know, children have gotten heavier since I was young. It's good to hear someone who has "been there, raised them" say that same thing. I'm not discounting that it might be nice to climb into a honkin' SUV and strap your young children in rather than the leaning of a sedan, but comparing the costs (financial, environmental, and moral) of an SUV to a regular car, I couldn't imagine justifiying it for reasons for "not leaning over." I can a minivan being useful/"necessary" for a family with three young kids or even two teenagers, but I can't imagine a single justification for owning an SUV, especially given the facts in the article that BTB has quoted.

[BTB]

You go every other week? Aww ... you're much better than I was about visiting .

When my kids were babies, my parents had a stroller and a crib - not brand new, but fine, imo. No one had pack-n-plays - I just chased my kids around their non-childproofed home. It was a four hour drive, so it did not happen as often as you travel.

(Just kind of chatting now, not trying to argue or anything...)

The pack 'n play really does need to get stuffed into the trunk, there's no baby gear of any kind at the grandparents' homes, so we bring everything with us. I'd feel funny asking them to make those kinds of purchases, if they did it on their own great, but until/unless that happens, the bassinet of the pack 'n play is where DD sleeps away from home. Without it we'd have to cosleep on little beds - two twins at the ILs, very Ozzie and Harriet, and a full-size at my mom's, for the three of us - and did I mention DH is 6'3"? DD is the first grandchild on her daddy's side; I do have a 5-year-old niece but my sister and her husband live much closer and never make overnight trips to my mother's house. Whether they'll begin accumulating any baby gear, we'll see. :)

And though I love the kudos - and my mom and DH's folks would love more frequent visits - we aim to go to each home at least once a month. The grandparents live in the same city, thus the two trips/month or more. :)

[Atlanta_eBride]

I think what it all comes down to is the lifestyle you want. FH and I have decided that we will always have some sort of "truck", whether it be an actual pickup, SUV, van, whatever. This is due to lifestyle – we have a cabin and we are always hauling stuff for it, we haul a boat back and forth, we do a lot of yard sale shopping, and its much easier for long distance traveling. One of the reasons we decided on our minivan is that it has SIX power outlets in it!

Like vjel said, I think if you research and test-drive you will find what you are looking for that will fit your needs. There are different factors for everyone as to why they feel the need (or not) to have the “prerequisite of parenthood” automobile. I have one of each and right now (SUV/Van) wouldn’t give either up despite the fact I don’t have any kids and that I live in the city. Sure, some days it’s a pain to park and most of the time there is only two people in the vehicle, but I can’t afford to have alternate cars.

Currently I have a Dodge Caravan that has bench seats in it. The one thing I will say about the vans is that, while I can get stuff in them it’s a PAIN to remove the seats, and when both seats are in there is not a ton of room so I usually leave the smaller bench out. I know that there are vans now that have the seating that goes into the floor but I’m not convinced that this is safe. Now with the SUV, I can pile stuff in there and never worry about the seating. It’s just a matter of what you want to put up with.

On the other hand, I've heard my mother say countless times that they raised kids in an era of no car seats, no bike helmets, etc - and that certainly never convinced me that I should do the same.

LOL – I hear this all of the time when I see parents doing things that I don’t think are safe and mention it to her. In fact, I even feel funny if I don’t wear a seatbelt for even a second, and growing up we never had to.

[mamahammer]

We bought a Dodge Grand Caravan last year, and it is fabulous!! I always said I would never drive a minivan, but I was sold the first time we test drove it. I love, love, love it! I had been driving a 4 dr Chevy Cavalier to that point, and must say that unless something catastrophic happened, there is no way you'd get me to go back to a small sedan. No way :p Our van has 4 capt sears and one bench seat, so it fits 7 very comfortably. I have had three full-sized car seats w/4 adults in their no problem. If we need to have more cargo space, I can take out the middle capt seats and move the bench seat to the middle row so we have the trunk space and the third row space as cargo area - and still have enough room for three adults and two carseats.

I avg 23 mpg with my putzy work/grocery store type trips, and 27mpg on the highway. Not much worse than our very small Cavalier, really.

The "not bending over" comments? Well, I'd gladly pay a bit more to not have to bend over to get my kiddos out of/into the car. Any day of the week and twice on Thursday. Seriously. It is that much better. And being able to get my groceries in the car without having to work them around two carseats? Heaven!

Not to be argumentative, but I don't buy the "Where do you drive your car more often?" question. I mean, yeah, there are times when I go to the grocery store by myself. But I am buying a car to accomodate my whole family, not necessarily my trips. My car needs to fit, at a minimum, my two kids and their carseats for the 8 yrs and 80 pounds, my husband and I, our dog, and our gear. And it needs to do so comfortably for a 9 hour road trip to see the grandparents once or twice a month. And when we get to the grandparent's house, I would prefer to be able to fit a few of my brothers and sisters in teh car, as well. So, yeah, sometimes I might be seen driving my minivan around with the windows rolled down, all by my lonesome. But, that's not why we bought it :) We bought it so that I don't go crazy on those 9 hour car trips, and so I have room to pack the extras. Self-indulgent? Absolutely :D A sanity-saver? Absolutely :D

[suzubeane]

The "not bending over" comments? Well, I'd gladly pay a bit more to not have to bend over to get my kiddos out of/into the car.To clarify, the "costs" I was referring to in my comment about "bending over" were NOT about the financial costs to the vehicle's owner. I DO pay for others' choices to drive large vhicles, thank you. We all do.

I'm beginning to see that this is a chicken/egg argument. Which came first? The ability to put up to 7 people, the family pet(s), the kids' friends, the gear, the baby stuff, the $1000 worth of groceries, the partridge in a pear tree into one vehicle? Or the need to cart around all of the above?

[BTB]

The ability to put up to 7 people, the family pet(s), the kids' friends, the gear, the baby stuff, the $1000 worth of groceries, the partridge in a pear tree into one vehicle? Or the need to cart around all of the above?

Am I just too simplistic? Because honest-to-Pete, I really see the need as the obvious 4Runner - oops, I mean forerunner. (sorry, couldn't resist.) I don't claim to know the first thing about the illustrious history of the minivan, but if a family has 4 kids, as we hope to someday, where should I put them? A sedan simply doesn't work, even with 3, given today's carseat laws. I know the answer a generation ago was a station wagon, with a kid in the jumpseat, riding backward, unbuckled... current safety standards, which I perceive as a HUGE advancement (which statistics bear out, in reduced child mortality!) just don't allow packin' 'em in like in "the good ol' days".

And yes, we haul baby stuff along if taking DD somewhere for a weekend. A pack 'n play, with it's bassinet attachment, is not a small thing to pack, nor a frivolous one since that's her bed while visiting. If the answer is to have Grandma and Grandpa and the other Grandma purchase duplicates of big-ticket baby items like cribs, well, I think if they wanted to, they would've already. So I guess that leaves us with just not visiting overnight. It's true we always have a choice, so yes, I do have a choice not to "need" to pack our sedan with overnight gear. But I choose to be able to go on overnight visits instead.

As I stated earlier, our current sedan meets our current needs just fine. If we had another carseat, though, there's not room, and we're buying for that hoped-for future need. We're not replacing the sedan. We're replacing a 10-year-old 2-door coupe, and it makes financial sense as a family to purchase a larger vehicle in it's stead now, at replacement time, that will last us, rather than another sedan we'd only hope to grow out of in a couple years.

[lawyerlee]

Don't sweat it, BTB. I think most of us see where you are coming from. Of course, I guess if you were truly a responsible person, you'd simply keep the car you have now and only have the one child. ;)

[suzubeane]

Am I just too simplistic? Because honest-to-Pete, I really see the need as the obvious 4Runner - oops, I mean forerunner. (sorry, couldn't resist.) I disagree. Apart from car seat laws (which is a whole other topic because I don't know anyone whose kids ride in booster seats 'til age 8/80 lbs, even when it is the law) I think this is a case of "need" being assessed on feasibility.

It is possible for you to carry all that gear to your parents homes, so you do. Your DD does not need a pack-n-play bassinette any more than my kids did before my parents bought a crib (at a yard sale, by the way. Not a big ticket item.) Same with your stroller (my folks had an umbrella stroller; worked fine for occasional use. Before the kids were big enough for it, we carried 'em.) If you think you need to carry all that stuff, then you do. I didn't.

Look, I didn't even have a high chair for my first child, so I obviously didn't have a lot of the other stuff people haul around with them and consider necessities. My contention is people think they must carry all that stuff because they can carry all that stuff.

I can only think of two of my friends who own minivans. None of my friends owns an SUV. (And many of my friends have kids who are younger than mine.) I only point this out because there seems to be a prevailing theory here that it's status quo to own an out-sized vehicle and haul your life around in it. Plenty of people never do this, and they still drive to activities, on trips, visit family, etc.

For what it's worth, BTB, I never meant to suggest you buy another sedan, but that someone in your shoes might consider a wagon, especially given your first post, in which you outlined why neither an SUV or a Minivan was an entirely comfortable choice for you.

eta ...

Don't sweat it, BTB. I think most of us see where you are coming from. Of course, I guess if you were truly a responsible person, you'd simply keep the car you have now and only have the one child. ;) Whoa. I'm certain this wasn't directed at my comments, since I DO see where BTB is coming from. I also see more than two choices for a vehicle larger than sedan, and appropriate for a growing family.

[mamahammer]

We don't own a lot of the "things" either, but that doesn't mkean I don't *heart* my minivan or that I see it as a trivial, unnecessary item. We don't use a packnplay, don't own a highchair, or a crib, changing table, etc. I've been thinking about this while putting Thomas to bed, an what it came down to for us was
-safety (and yes, I do completely plan on my children being in car seats until 8 and 80 pounds. Not just b/c it's the law, but because it is the best way to keep them safe in a car)
-ease and comfort of family
-accessibility at our times of highest need

We didn't buy our house thinking about our current situation. If we had, we would have bought a one room condo. Not a three-bedroom, 2.5 bath house in the suburbs. Why? Because for the time being, all three (soon-to-be four) of us sleep in one room, in the same bed. But that will not be the case in the months/years to come. Someday,both kids will be potty trained, theywill be sleeping through the night in their own beds and we will have more visitors/friends. So, we bought a house with all of that in mind. In our current situation, we could have bought a less expensive house in a worse neighborhood with worse school districts. But knowing that eventually both children will be in school, we chose to buy in a higher priced area with better schools. Even though we don't need them now.

So, yeah, we bought a car that we don't [i]need[i] 24/7. Yes, there are times I go to the store alone (very few times, but times nonetheless ;) )and at those times, sure, I could fit myself and what I am buying in a lot less car. But we bought a car for the biggest times - for the trips. For the future soccer games. For the camping gear and the sleepovers and the field trips. We bought it for the future with two elementary aged children in booster seats. And we bought it cause, darn it, we like it :) It's comfy. It gives us room to breathe. We are not sitting on top of each other and that feels fabulous! Does that make us selfish or unconcerned with society and the environment? I don't think so. You might, and that's cool :) There are very few things we have decided are "worth it" in matters like these. Where I spend a great deal of my day (ie my car) was one of things that was "worth it."

[KristyK]

When my son was born we had a 2 door grand am, and a large dog. We carted him for 2 years in that car, sitting on the back of the "front" seat to get him in and out of his carseat. Our dog was squished next to him because the only way to get the carseat in the car was to put it in the middle. He went from a 7 lb baby to a 25 lb 2 year old. That was probably worse on my back then all the other things I did to it before he was born to ruin my back in the first place. I've been there done that with the leaning over to get into a car, or getting a child into a car.

When we bought our first minivan, he was 2 years old. I didn't need another car payment, but what it saved on my back hurting, and the extra room we had for our dog made up for all of it in the long run. My son was in a booster seat until he was 5 (laws changed after that) and I still had to belt him in. If I had to do that in a regular car everyday, I'd have hurt my back even more.

I don't think that I use any "extra" gas for my running around town than anyone in any other type of car does. I don't even see that as an argument. What difference does it make if I get into a regular size car and run to the grocery store, or if I hop into my minivan and run to the grocery? I don't get that at all.

Also, I lived in a large city, and parking a car depends on skill, no matter what kind of car it is. I can park a huge dodge ram truck just as well as my minivan, or my DH's smaller mazda truck, it's all in the skill.

I'll admit, I didn't ever want to be anything but the "cool" mother but the car I drove had absolutely nothing to do with that. I was already driving a sports car and I didn't feel any different when I bought my minivan, it was simply a matter of health for me initially. I kept my grand-am, but rarely drove it after buying the minivan. It became my DH's car, because I always had our son.

I'll be honest, I've been in my gf's Expedition, I could barely get up into it and I'm 5'5" tall. She's less than 5' tall, and she has trouble getting into it. One of the reasons they bought a brand new commuter car (besides the cost of gas) was because she was having trouble getting their new baby into the Expedition, and she doesn't have any back problems, she was simply too short. I wouldn't be able to get a child into a car seat in one of those either.

So once again, my .02!

[BTB]

For what it's worth, BTB, I never meant to suggest you buy another sedan, but that someone in your shoes might consider a wagon, especially given your first post, in which you outlined why neither an SUV or a Minivan was an entirely comfortable choice for you.

And that's not a bad idea. Thanks to this thread, it's an option we'll consider. But if it can't hold up to 4 children, all safely buckled into appropriate restraints until age 8, it'll be off the table immediately. :)

We could go round and round on what stuff who needs and when until we're all collecting social security; I doubt we'd see eye-to-eye, and that's cool. I'm ok with that, and sure you (general you, as well as all the specific you's participating in this conversation) are too. Other parenting choices have certainly guided my perceived needs. I could choose to co-sleep with my DD in a twin bed at my IL's, but I feel in a small bed that's not safe and thus I must provide a safe place for my kiddo to sleep as one is otherwise not available. The point is that I did, indeed, have the need first (to haul crapola everywhere) and am now in search of the ability, not the other way around.

Bottom line for me is that we would like to have a family of up to four children, should we be so lucky as to have such control, and don't want the vehicle we purchased to dictate how many of us can travel together (safely buckled, bien sur) at one time. ;)

[lawyerlee]

Whoa. I'm certain this wasn't directed at my comments, since I DO see where BTB is coming from. I also see more than two choices for a vehicle larger than sedan, and appropriate for a growing family.
I didn't quote you or refer to you. So I'm not sure why you thought I was. :confused: What I meant was that most of us reading this thread can relate to feeling torn between competing goals and aspirations, just like BTB. :)

Here's something I'm wondering: How can the child safety seat issue and the legal requirements *not* factor into a responsible parent's choice in the purchase of a brand new vehicle, when one has the financial means to buy one?

[amorey]

<hijack>
Is it really the law that you have to put kids in car seats until they’re 8? :eek: I was 5’ tall when I was eight!
</hijack>

[lawyerlee]

<hijack>
Is it really the law that you have to put kids in car seats until they’re 8? :eek: I was 5’ tall when I was eight!
</hijack>
It depends on the state, but it is moving more and more in that direction. Every year that I've been an attorney in the Kansas Legislature, we've had at least one bill introduced to change our laws in this manor.

[eponymous]

I don't think that I use any "extra" gas for my running around town than anyone in any other type of car does. I don't even see that as an argument. What difference does it make if I get into a regular size car and run to the grocery store, or if I hop into my minivan and run to the grocery? I don't get that at all.

If you a drive a vehicle that gets less mpg than a small sedan does, you're using "extra" gas. That's probably not an issue for a SAHM or someone who works close to home. I drive nearly 14,000 miles per year and savings for a car that gets 35 mpg over 25 mpg (the tradeoff that I just made) is significant. Or maybe my budget is just smaller than the people who have posted here about being willing to drive large vehicles to commute everyday.

[SingleWhiteFemale]

Hey BTB, you could always tie the stuff to the roofrack :p But uh oh, you'd be wasting gas because of the wind resistance :rolleyes: In your sedan, you can always tie a kiddo to the roof if you need the room :D My parents threatened us with that all the time. Wasn't bad enough for them to do it though! Just make sure the babe is in his carseat--wouldn't want a ticket now, would you? :D Plan for 4 cute babes (from those pics of Evie, I can tell you and your hubby make beautiful babies, so be sure to have lots of them! ;) )!

If you a drive a vehicle that gets less mpg than a small sedan does, you're using "extra" gas. That's probably not an issue for a SAHM or someone who works close to home. I drive nearly 14,000 miles per year and savings for a car that gets 35 mpg over 25 mpg (the tradeoff that I just made) is significant. I love the Pontiac Grand Prix. It's a small sedan In real life, it gets 17mpg, less than my humongous Explorer's usual 20-21mpg. The reality of it is, that saying "I'm doing something better than you are/by driving a car that gets 10mpg more than your car does," is wrong. Unless you're taking public transportation, have a fuel efficient hybrid, or walking everywhere, no (not directed at anyone in particular, but you is a general 'you'), no one has room to make those types of statements that it's "extra" gas. Heck, 35mpg is comsuming "extra gas" when you could be getting 55mpg in the Prius hybrid.

If gas is $2.50 gallon:

15000 miles per year at $2.50/25 mpg $1500
15000 miles per year at $2.50/30 mpg $1250
15000 miles per year at $2.50/35 mpg $1071.43

Not the hugest difference. I'd rather pay more in gasoline to be comfy in my vehicle, happy with it, and be able to transport all of my stuff safely, especially precious cargo. Furthermore, $250/year isn't indulgent by any means. Anyone go out and get a $4 cup of coffee everyday at Starbucks before work? That runs over $1k for a year. Someone mentioned (a few pages back I believe) that if you needed a large vehicle to go somewhere, rent it. Do you know what it costs to rent an SUV?! 2005 Chevy Trailblazer, beginning of December, ran almost $70/day from Enterprise! Not a cheaper alternative by any means! (Currently, during the week it runs $90 to rent a minivan, $77 for a SUV, $63 for a cargo van, $52 for a pickup) I DO pay for others' choices to drive large vhicles, thank you. Are you making a financial point? 1 in 4 new cars purchased in an SUV/truck. 25% of the passenger cars on the road. True, the heavier the vehicle the more "damage" it does to the road. I guess we should ban semi-trucks from the road too because they're even heavier than SUVs. Then, we can carry smaller loads in more vehicles, but that takes up more gasoline. If you're talking from a non-financial aspect, please do share.

[suzubeane]

We could go round and round on what stuff who needs and when until we're all collecting social security; I doubt we'd see eye-to-eye, and that's cool. I'm ok with that, and sure you (general you, as well as all the specific you's participating in this conversation) are too. It's not so much a matter of seeing eye-to-eye, as it is a matter "different strokes ..." I'm glad you got my meaning though. I worried later that I shouldn't have used your specifics as an example of someone who perceives "need" differently than I did/do... I could have just as easily used another, like the family who has a need to take their pet everywhere with them.

I didn't quote you or refer to you. So I'm not sure why you thought I was. :confused: What I meant was that most of us reading this thread can relate to feeling torn between competing goals and aspirations, just like BTB. :)I guess it was the fact that it came on the heels of the OP responding to me. And the fact that you wrote "most of us here."

Here's something I'm wondering: How can the child safety seat issue and the legal requirements *not* factor into a responsible parent's choice in the purchase of a brand new vehicle, when one has the financial means to buy one?I didn't mean to indicate that it shouldn't – if I did, then I wrote something wrong. My argument is that people deem things "necessities" based on the fact that the are able to fit them into a vehicle, but that car safety seats don't fall under that classification. They are most definitely necessities!

And FWIW, I do see this is a dilemma I never had, given that my kids are 6 years apart in age.

<hijack>
Is it really the law that you have to put kids in car seats until they’re 8? :eek: I was 5’ tall when I was eight!
</hijack>First, don't confuse an infant or toddler car safety seat with a booster seat meant for older kids. The problem with adult seat belts for older kids is that they don't fit them correctly; kids have been injured and killed when wearing adult seatbelts.

One solution is what's considered a "Belt Positioning Booster Seat"
http://www.aap.org/images/carseats/boosterpic.jpg
It raises kids up so that the seatbelt fits them properly.

It also makes older kids complain that they're "not babies" and shouldn't have to sit in a car seat. That's what I got from my daughter after age six, which is when my stat law said she no longer needed it. It's a real dilemma for parents, since – as lawyerlee points out – laws differ by state, and since the laws themselves don't seem based on what's the safest for a child, a parent might not want to rely on just the law when making his/her choice
about car safety.

As an example, my state (Rhode Island) says that a child younger than 6 years AND less than 54" AND less than 80 pounds must ride in a car seat. (So in other words, if your child is younger than 6 years but meets the height/weight requirements, no child seat is needed.) What about a child like mine - older than 6 AND less than 54" AND less than 80 lbs? (Not to mention that 5 min. from here in Massachusetts, the law changes at 4 years old!)

My solution was a seat belt adjuster, which places the belt in the right position for a smaller, older child.

http://www.123safe.com/scstore/graphics/deluxeseatbelt.jpg

I think as long as the laws are so convoluted, every parent has to decide for him/herself. I couldn't keep arguing with my 7 year-old (now 9 year-old) every morning!

On a personal note, I hope that states don't go with an automatic 8/80 rule for car seats, because it would take the choice away from anyone who wants to use seatbelt adjusters AND it would present even more parents with the dilemma that BTB faces now. (Including parents for whom a larger vehicle is not within reach.)

[suzubeane]

Are you making a financial point? No. I'm making social, environmental and political points.

And I'm disheartened that so few seem to understand that.

[mamahammer]

No. I'm making social, environmental and political points.

And I'm disheartened that so few seem to understand that.
I really don't think that we don't understand that. Truly. Just that some of us choose to make points in certain arenas as opposed to others. I chose a minivan over an SUV for many environmental and social reasons, but I wasn't about to give up my minivan for those reasons. But I do choose to fight those battles on other fronts - from waste consumption in my home to energy conservation at work. I just have chosen my families safety and comfort over those in the car arena, kwim?

I don't want this to turn into a debate about carseats - that should be another thread entirely. But, I will say that the 8/80 law keeps children safe, and IMO, that is much more important than any other reason for not having the law to begin with. I would have fought it myself before I did the research. Would have believed it ridiculous. But the research that has been done is very convincing. Children under 8 yrs old AND under 80 pounds (not either/or) are not equipped to be in an adult safety belt in an accident. Same reason children under 12 yrs of age are not allowed in the front seat of a vehicle here in Texas any longer. It's simply not safe for their small bodies.

[suzubeane]

Children under 8 yrs old AND under 80 pounds (not either/or) are not equipped to be in an adult safety belt in an accident. Same reason children under 12 yrs of age are not allowed in the front seat of a vehicle here in Texas any longer. It's simply not safe for their small bodies.It is NOT the same reason; one has to do with seatbelt effectiveness, and the other has to do with the dangers of airbag deployment on smaller people. The only commonality is that the age requirements are totally arbitrary for both - it should be height/weight across the board, and seat belt adjusters should be factored in, so bigger families with fewer resources can still leave the house.

I don't know how old your kids are, but my 9 year-old, 55 lb daughter would consider having to use a car seat demeaning. I'm not willing to compromise her safety, so I'm grateful for the adjuster. She might be in middle school by the time she reaches 80 lbs!

I think a car seat discussion is very much OT, but I'll leave the discussion about the relationship between what we drive, and where our dependence on foreign oil has gotten us for another thread.

[mamahammer]

It is NOT the same reason; one has to do with seatbelt effectiveness, and the other has to do with the dangers of airbag deployment on smaller people.

Sorry, What I meant by "same reason" was that that they are both for the safety of the child. Thomas also considers holding my hand in the parking lot to be silly, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have to do it. It's for his safety, and on that I won't compromise. Yes, I would have been well into 5th grade before I weighed 80 pounds, I know that my parents still would have forced me into a safety seat if they had known it would be safest for me. I felt it demeaning at age 10 to have to have a parent with me at the mall, but darn it, my parents got to make the rules and they wanted make sure I was safe. Demeaning or not. I am sure that you are doing what is best for your children. Please don't take what I am saying the wrong way. But I think this is one of those, 'When you know better you do better" cases. 8 years ago, we weren't nearly as focused on child-vehicle safety, and we didn't have the studies we have now. That doesn't mean we shouldn't follow those new safety standards today, though - kwim?

And I am not at all disagereing with you on our dependence on foreign oil. Just saying that my minivan purchase is not where I, as a consumer, decided to fight that battle.

[mamahammer]

Sorry, one more thing ;)

I think there is a big difference in home most of us would have felt as a child in a safety seat til 8, how Suzubeane's kids might feel, and how this newer generation of kids will feel about it. For my children, because they are so young and were born after the newer safety standards/laws were in place, it will be very different, I suspect. They won't grow up thinking of not being in a booster seat as an option, because it won't be, kwim? Not for them and not for their friends. My kids will know that if one of their friends is not in a booster seat it is because they are not following the law and thus, mommy and daddy could be pulled over by the policeman and little Johnny could be seriously hurt. A change in rules is much harder to explain to kids, IMO, than a rule that has just always been in existance for them, kwim?

[suzubeane]

I don't think we disagree about child safety, mamahammer (except I'm not clear where you stand on age vs. height/weight requirements) but it appeared that you were scoffing at my choice to use an adjuster on an older child rather than force her into a car seat. If I didn't have the choice, believe me, she'd be in a seat.

I'd rather see the use of adjusters promoted – even made law - rather than arbitrary age requirements for seats enforced. I definitely don't want to see the adjuster choice taken away, for the reasons I've already stated.

eta ...
A change in rules is much harder to explain to kids, IMO, than a rule that has just always been in existance for them, kwim?Good point. I see this in the way my daughter feels about helmets; it's second nature, and she notices if a kid is not wearing one.

[Asha]

i think a lot of people who are anti-suv aren't thinking of financial implications. they are thinking about how they are harmful to the environment. the thing is there are many other kinds of vehicles besides suv's which also are harmful to the environment. plus, owning a fuel efficient car isn't the only way to help the environment. i think we could all agree that our society needs to make more conscience efforts to make this world a cleaner place so future generations will have a healthy and beautiful place to live. :)

[amorey]

I really don’t like those laws that specify a child’s age or size only. Kids grow at different rates and are different sizes. By the time I was 12, I was fully grown at 5’10” and 145 lbs. I don’t think I would have understood why it was okay for adults and older children who were smaller than me to sit in the front.

How do they even enforce that? If I have an 80lb 7 year old, how will they know she’s not eight if they pull me over? Do I have to show her birth certificate if she’s not in a booster?

[Sarah]

I agree with you, Suzebean. I have a station wagon, and I find it has tons of room for me, my husband, our three year old, another carseat, groceries, etc, even another passenger.I suppose this is partially due to lifestyle- it would never occur to me to buy 1000 dollars worth of groceries or bring some giant stroller around with me- I have made different choices which don't require those things. I can easily see having three kids in this wagon. We have a "way back" (backward facing third row optional) seat as well, as BTB mentioned, and it's perfectly safe. It has belts and is fine for adults to sit in.

I think I could easily fit in two booster seats that were rated to go to 80 lbs/8 years old. I have fit one in just fine in no more room than a person sitting takes up.

I also agree that the need follows the ability. Until a month or two ago, we had no car. We were able to visit relatives and conduct our lives just fine. Of course, this is part of a larger decision, to live in the city as opposed to the suburbs or a rural area. If I lived in the suburbs, I can't imagine being able to swing the no-car thing. Yeah, there were annoying parts about not having a car, but we made do until our DD was almost 3. BTB, wouldn't it be cheaper (when you think of the money you'd save buying a wagon or sedan) to outfit the ILs house with an inexpensive pack n play and umbrella stroller? Probably only run you 150$, compared to the increased cost of gas and all that associated with a larger car.

But I do know what you mean- we intend to have 4+ kids, too, and I imagine we'll need a minivan, too, at some point.

[mamahammer]

not that it really matters :p but the idea of asking my parents to store stuff like a crib/pnp/stroller at their house, much less buy them, just so that i don't have to bring them with me doesn't sit well. it seems to me like those things are my responsibility, and mine alone, kwim? i don't know. it just makes me squirm a bit to impose on our parents in that way. like btb said, if they wanted to purchase those things, they would have done so on their own.

[BTB]

or bring some giant stroller around with me-

Agreed on that point for sure, we instead own a stroller frame that folds down small and holds DD's infant seat when open. Of course, right when she needs a convertible carseat, we'll need another stroller, and we've selected a 10-pound model. No bulky travel systems here.

BTB, wouldn't it be cheaper (when you think of the money you'd save buying a wagon or sedan) to outfit the ILs house with an inexpensive pack n play and umbrella stroller? Probably only run you 150$, compared to the increased cost of gas and all that associated with a larger car.

In the short run, and only if a bigger car (station wagon) really is significantly cheaper than a minivan. I don't know enough about the cost of station wagons or about the cost of "all that" to larger cars to say at this point. :) If it needs upgrading before we're done with it's otherwise useful life, though, it doesn't save money long-term.

[suzubeane]

it just makes me squirm a bit to impose on our parents in that way.I dunno - you're traveling 9 hours every other week, according to what you wrote earlier. Seems like *storing something* (not even buying it) pales in comparison if you're measuring effort, no?

[mamahammer]

I dunno - you're traveling 9 hours every other week, according to what you wrote earlier. Seems like *storing something* (not even buying it) pales in comparison if you're measuring effort, no?

no, no, we are more like once a month - btb, i believe, is every other week ;) But it's also not a one way street. my parents travel to see us once every 4-6 weeks, as well :) And they are currently living in a two bedroom house with three people, so space is at a premium :)

[Sarah]

Not specifically directed at you, Mamahammer, because I am really referring to SUVs, not minivans, but it seems odd to feel okay about endangering others' lives, but not feel okay about asking others to store some stuff.

It just seems so selfish to ride around in an SUV, knowing that they make all other drivers less safe, because you want to feel safe and can afford it (many people can't). Especially when, as the NYT article quoted before explained, it's not necessarily making you safer, it just makes you *feel* safer. These are really emotional decisions for a lot of people, not practical ones.

We could easily rent a pickup truck/minivan/SUV for every time we needed one to go camping, haul stuff, go on vacation and still save money over buying one of those larger cars.

[SingleWhiteFemale]

It just seems so selfish to ride around in an SUV, knowing that they make all other drivers less safe, because you want to feel safe and can afford it (many people can't).Coming from woman who has had 4 accidents that were in no way her faul in under 2 years (spring 2003-February 2005), I don't feel a bit guilty if in my next accident I hurt the people in the other car. That may sound self-centered, but other people are reckless and negligent, yet want me to do something for their safety to protect them? Please. I'm not running around trying to mow over random cars and pedestrians on my way to school. I'm not malicious, I pay 100% attention to the road. I've had more near misses with passenger cars not paying attention as they should and doing stupid things than SUVs. There are horrible drivers of every type of vehicle on the road. People who aren't giving their full attention to the road are all too frequent. They're endangering my life, yet continue to eat, talk on their cell phones, read the newspaper, play their DVD players, fiddle with the radio and other controls. I will say that within the past 4 years, I've had friends involved in 4 car fatal car accidents. None involved SUVs, they were regular passenger car on car accidents. I'm very aware of my possible mortality every single time I step into my car or anyone else's for that matter. I know that when I leave in the morning, there's always the chance I won't be coming home that night. Such is life. My SUV is a practical decision for me. Regardless of what people say, it doesn't take $1k worth of groceries to fill up my car, if I go for 1 week's worth it's full. I'm not wasteful like some of you feel us SUV owners are--I plan my trips, I don't go on random jaunts to use lots of gas, I do all of my shopping at one time. I can hit Costco, Home Depot, Target and the bookstore as I did Thursday, not worrying that I won't have enough room or worrying about taking separate trips. I do that at least once a week. Around 4 times a week, at minimum, I'm toting around my Saint. To have him properly restrained, he needs the headroom and benchspace of my Explorer (I had a rental passenger car, he couldn't stand and there was no room/ability for him to be comfortable in such a confined space). I transport friend's furniture in and out of their dorms. None of that is possible in a regular car, without running several trips and burning more gas.

Do you feel it is selfish to allow teenagers, or heck, all of those under 25, because they have the most accidents and the highest fatalities? Or men, because they have a higher accident/fatality rate than women? How about keeping them off the road for your safety?

I sat and read the New Yorker article. If you're going to start rattling off numbers, please tell me from where you are drawing these stats. I'm not too impressed by data from a random physicist (is it even published in a reputible journal?). Give me numbers from say, IIHS or another reputible, established group, and then I'll perk up. Here's (http://www.iihs.org/safety_facts/fatality_facts/occupants.htm) the IIHS stats and a break down by types of car (although for rollover fatalities, I'd like to see stats as to how many of those occupants were unrestrained/not wearing seatbelts).

Some of us saved money by buying our SUVs over cars. I bought mine used from a family member, a heck of a lot cheaper than any car I would want.

It seems selfish to judge other people's decisions. You have the choice to drive a car, whatever car you want, and I have the same right. What makes it okay for you to judge my decision, while [I'm guessing] not wanting judgement for yours? (no snark or attitude intended, I hope it doesn't come across as such)

[suzubeane]

It seems selfish to judge other people's decisions. You have the choice to drive a car, whatever car you want, and I have the same right. What makes it okay for you to judge my decision, while [I'm guessing] not wanting judgement for yours? (no snark or attitude intended, I hope it doesn't come across as such)There it is again: Judge. There most overused/misused word out there.

To judge is to hold an opinion. We all judge, because we form opinions every day. Every time we make a decision about how to conduct ourselves, someone else will form an opinion about it. And if you discuss your choices on a message board, those judgments are likely to become known to you.

Please … judge what I drive! You are within your rights to judge my opinion that it is fine for 4 teenaged boys sit shoulder to shoulder in my Mazda Protégé on the way to a soccer game. And I am within mine to judge that owning an SUV to take one's pet around on errands is frivolous.

I am also within my rights to deem your continued discussion of the costs of owning an SUV as simply financial to be shortsighted. Do you really think that people who do not favor SUVs come to their opinions out of fiscal concern for those who drive them?

[Kristen78]

Well I think I can safely say that I will never drive a minivan. I just refuse to!

That being said, I think SUVs have their place too. In some instances a minivan might be a better choice for people. But in my case I think an SUV fits our lifestyle better.

First off, I live in snowy northern Vermont. So its nice to have something with AWD. I dont think most minivans are AWD, are they? The extra ground clearance in a SUV is nice too. I also live on a dirt road that doesnt always get plowed out right away in the winter, so the AWD comes in handy then too. I do think its a bit ridiculious that some people feel the need to get a huge SUV when they only have 1 kid though.

I dont drive an SUV now, I have a Subaru Outback wagon. And just because you get an SUV doesn't mean it has to be a gas guzzling one. My DH drives and older '97 Chevy Blazer now, but when that croakes we will probably be purchasing a Toyota Highlander hybrid. Hardly a gas guzzling machine! So there are environmentally friendly options out there to choose from, and in the next couple of years there will even be more models available.

I for one do not like minivans and could never see myself driving one. So SUV for me please.

[mamahammer]

I do think some of this is probably regional, as well. Speaking with some other Texas girls, people just drive large vehicles around here. Be they an SUV, a minivan, a diesel truck, whatever. I went to Target yesterday, and the five cars surrounding me consisted of one sedan, an SUV and a minivan. I won't speak to the safety of the SUV, since I don't own one. Primarily because I like the way the minivan handles and operates over the SUVs we test drove. And because it gets much better gas mileage. But, if I'm not mistaken, the safety of the minivan was not in question at the end of the NYT article.

And, as the PP poster mentioned, if we were to buy an SUV it would be the newer hybrid versions (DH is thinking of buying an Escape Hybrid as his next vehicle). He works in construction, hauls around a lot of material, and has to do a lot of off-road driving for his sites. It just makes sense for him to have something with more room that handles, yes, more safely in those situations.

And, I admit, it might seem like a little thing to ask my parents to store/buy some things. But, if every one of the 5 children asked my parents to do that for them in some way or another, my parent's house would be quickly overrun by children who don't even live there anymore. And, yes, I am a bit oversensitive in the "asking my parents to do things" category. Don't know why. Just am :)

[Sarah]

What makes it okay for you to judge my decision, while [I'm guessing] not wanting judgement for yours? Fine with me. Honestly, it's okay with me if people judge my choices. I think it's silly to say that we all don't hold judgments about each other's choices, especially when those choices effect others. I am less than happy with the gas mileage on my own car, but it's the only car we could afford. So we make a very conscious effort not to drive our car as much as we can, and to walk places we can manage. But I would totally understand if someone judged me for having a relatively fuel- inefficient car.

[mamahammer]

Again, it seems like region plays out a lot here. In every area of Texas I've lived in, not driving is just not an option. We don't have the mass transit systems you do in other places. Everything is very spread out. The walk to the nearest grocery store from my house is two miles. The walk to the kid's elementary school is about the same, across two major thoroughfares and two train tracks. To get into Dallas takes a good 20 minutes by car, and we are in a "surrounding suburb." Simply "driving less" isn't really a viable option.

[Sarah]

Oh I know, J. That's why I was saying that I DO drive a car with crappy gas mileage, and that's the decision I had to make, but I choose to try to lessen the amount of time we spend in the car because of it. But I was trying to show that I know many people would still judge me for having the car I do ( a wagon) and that's okay with me. We all have limitations and trade offs in our choices. As you said, you make other choices (like CDing and BFing) which lessen the environmental impact of your life, KWIM?

[mamahammer]

Absolutely :) I do think this is one of those "choose your battle" type areas. We all have them - with our kids, our jobs, our hubbies, and yes, the environment. This is just one area I choose the convenience and safety of my family over the environmental/political impact my personal choice might have. And I'm cool with that. Just like I know Sarah and Jed made real choices to live without a car for, what, 3 years? I mean, that's dedication in my book. But when your situation changes, so do your needs. Moving a wee bit outside of the city and having another child means making different choices. And there are always going to be others judging those choices. If I were to say that I am above being judgemental, well, I'd be lying to myself.

Reality is I never thought I would be as head over heels with a car as I am with my minivan. I've driven 2-door sportscars, sedans, Suburbans, you name it. And I *heart* my minivan. It;s the only car that's ever held a special place in my heart :p

[BTB]

This is all fascinating, and it's ironic I feel I'm derailing such a great conversation by being "off-topic" when it's not:

After more thought, discussion, and rubber-necking every larger vehicle that goes by, DH and I are very interested in the resdesigned Toyota Sienna (2004 and later) vs. the Honda Odyssey - again, with our Toyota/Honda love. :D

I know some have already posted their experiences with these two vehicles - any others? Anyone move up to one of these from a little bitty car, and if so were you surprised by either the difficulty you had getting used to it's size, or by how easy it was? Parallel parking's not an issue, thank goodness, but here I'm just worried about needing to learn to back up, change lanes, etc. all over again.

[Atlanta_eBride]

Anyone move up to one of these from a little bitty car, and if so were you surprised by either the difficulty you had getting used to it's size, or by how easy it was? Parallel parking's not an issue, thank goodness, but here I'm just worried about needing to learn to back up, change lanes, etc. all over again.

I distinctly remember when I went from a car to an SUV and feeling nervous the first week driving it. Because I was higher up it felt a little unnatural until I got use to it. Now when I started driving the minivan (about 3 months ago) I had the same feelings about backing up – and still do to some degree. I’m just very aware of my surroundings before I start going backwards. I’ll also add that I am extremely careful going around curves and turning in both vehicles. Sometimes I feel that there are people behind me trying to get me to go faster but I don’t give in because it’s my life if the vehicle flips. I’m probably overly cautious on this but I’m also trying to be responsible.

ETA: I also feel (being judgemental ;) ), that people should know how to drive the vehicles they choose. I see too many people who can't park their oversized SUV/Van and it really irritates me. I choose to park in an area with fewer cars and walk a little further if I see a potential problem in me parking.

[vikib]

BTB - I'm leaning toward the Sienna myself partly because it has an AWD and I'd go with either the Sienna or Odyssey because the windows in the second row now roll down. We've rented a minivan and that window didn't move and only the back windows would push out some and it was very uncomfortable in that third row, I sat there. So I'll make sure there's some good air circulation in the minivan (or SUV) we pick out.

I'm not sure a wagon is the best choice as we have one and we're considering trading it in for whatever vehicle we choose, minivan or SUV. Space is an issue. We have a 2 year old in a belt positioning booster and an 8 month old in a convertible (huge) car seat. There is NO room, maybe for 1/2 a butt cheek for someone to seat between those seats, in my DH's Subaru Outback. AND if you have another person, like DH's mom comes to visit every 6 weeks, that means we have to drive 2 cars, which would use twice as much gas if you think about it, so no I don't think a wagon is an option, unless it had a third row, which I think someone did mention that there was one (which I didn't know and maybe that's something we should look into!), because I think a 3rd row is a requirement in our situation, but maybe not everyones.

About safety and such. I'm an actuary. I create and adjust rates for auto insurance. We have lots of data by vehicle type etc. An SUV is more dangerous to other drivers, which is why we surcharge them, but its mostly because of their height and while minivans are somewhat shorter they aren't always, they're more the height of a Highlander or CRV. SUVs are more likely to roll over, someone used a statistic about rolling over in an SUV you're safer than in a minivan, but the number of SUVs rolling over vs. minivans rolling over is at least twice (I don't have exact numbers about rolling over). BUT again its not only the car its the driver of the car, most people driving a minivan are women (who are better drivers hands down), since they get to drive the kids around most of the time. While most SUV drivers are men, probably partly because men just think they'd look dorky or whatever driving a minivan, just as my husband doesn't want to carry around a diaper bag that screams "diaper bag". Up until recently minivans were very expensive to repair, so are SUVs for that matter, but they are getting better repair cost wise, which would be another thing to consider when thinking about what to drive.

[BTB]

Give me numbers from say, IIHS or another reputible, established group, and then I'll perk up.

Liz, you know I think you're perky already. :) I was shocked by this IIHS report - the per capita driver deaths in a "very large" SUV with 4wd are almost as high as the driver deaths in "small 4dr cars" and significantly higher than the number in larger cars. Page 3:

http://www.iihs.org/srpdfs/sr4003.pdf

The New Yorker article also made the point that, once you're in a crash, you might be better off in a larger vehicle - but that in what they termed a more nimble vehicle, you might avoid the crash altogether. Don't know how to find stats on crashes that didn't happen, but it's a point well-made.

[suzubeane]

Moving a wee bit outside of the city and having another child means making different choices. And there are always going to be others judging those choices. If I were to say that I am above being judgemental, well, I'd be lying to myself.Two nit-picky points here: Moving a wee bit outside of the city and having another child ARE choices. They are the primary choices that cause the ripple effect of the choices that follow – the ones about things like housing and transportation.

And the term "above being judgmental" implies there's something wrong with being judgmental, which - as I already said - simply means "holding an opinion." People use the terms "judgmental" and "critical" interchangeably, but I'm quite pleased to be opinionated (judgmental) and I surround myself with people who also have strong opinions, not all of whom agree with me.

[suzubeane]

We have a 2 year old in a belt positioning booster and an 8 month old in a convertible (huge) car seat. There is NO room, maybe for 1/2 a butt cheek for someone to seat between those seats, in my DH's Subaru Outback. vikib, would you ever consider replacing your belt positioning booster with a seat belt adjuster? I honestly don't know if it wo