Immigration: Realistic Solutions

[LyLMyssChaos]

I know this is a very heated topic, but I am hoping that an issue that is as important as this can be discussed in an adult fashion.

Whether we want to admit it or not, we have got a HUGE immigration issue in this country. We have a lot of people here off the books, and we have a huge back-up on people trying to come in the proper way.

There have been all kinds of ideas thrown around from "toss all illegals out on their butts and put up a huge fence" to "let everyone who wants to come here, do it. And if they are already here, let them stay." Now obviously, these are both extremes and neither is incredibly realistic. So does anyone have any knowledge on ways to improve things? Should we scrap the current system all together? Is it outdated? Is it fine, we just need to implement what exists?

I will admit I really don't know much about immigration (either legal or illegal) and this issue is something I foresee needing to be addressed in the near future.

[BlackMagicRose]

I married an Austrian man and we want to move to the US someday soon. Let me tell you that the immigration process is horrible. I can give details if you would like, but to make a long story short, it is costly and takes up a lot of time. Even though he is my spouse and I am an American citizen (from birth and I lived there for 25 years of my life) it is still a pain in the ass. Is that fair? No.

I believe that we should give illegal immigrants in the US a limited amount of time to speak up and announce that they are in the country. Then we will process them and give them a chance to become American citizens. If they have been arrested or are known to be selling drugs or doing something else illegal in the country, I believe it is in our best intrest to deport them.

I love Hillary's idea of a guest worker program. I love her immigration ideas in general. She wants to make it easier for families to immigrate (like in my situation) and she believes that the US is a country of immigrants and that if we stop it entirely, we would be forgetting everything the US has to stand for.

[LyLMyssChaos]

Unfortunately, stories like yours come up all too frequently. I know of quite a few people whom have had difficulty getting spouses here. I have a friend in fact that has been trying for 10 years to get his wife over here. I think it's situations like this that cause me to think the whole system needs to be overhauled.

[jnettie]

IMO, the reason why we have so many illegals is because it is such a huge pain in the ars to immigrate the legal way. Especially if you are from Mexico, Central, or South America. What's the incentive? Wait 10 years for a work visa or other legal means of immigration? That's what the wait is now. Especially when the system here is set up with a slew of low-paying under the table jobs that still pay way more than they could ever dream of making in their country.

I know quite a few people, too, who came here on student visas and just never went back. Even they have little incentive to become legal. Because they entered legally, they can't be deported (but they can't ever leave here, either), and at this point it would be so expensive and so difficult to become citizens, there's really no good reason why they should. And it's not just menial labor jobs that are under the table. My Cousin's GF works in a hospital doing skilled work under the table.

I think there are 2 things we can do to help the problem. One is make legal immigration easier and/or expand the # of work visas we give. The other is to look at our foreign policy with the countries that have the most illegals and try to help those countries so that their people DON'T want to leave in droves! I mean, if I were living on $5 a week in a crappy shanty of a house in Mexico, yeah, I'd probably risk wading across a river if it meant that my kids would get food and be able to go to school. And since the bad government in other countries really is effecting us and our economy, then what can we do to help them?

[Niobe]

I've thought about this a lot, having grown up near the border and being part Mexican myself.

Obviously, deporting everyone currently in the country illegally won't work. The number of jobs being performed, the number of homes being rented - the place they are occupying in the economic structure of our society would be devastated. But more importantly, a lot of the people who would be deported have had children in the U.S. Those children are U.S. citizens. They can't be deported. So what exactly would we do with all the children who's parents we'd be sending back to their home countries?

Honestly, I really tend to think that if you are living in this country, and you are gainfully employed and maintaining a home, then you are a benefit to our society. We've got a lot of people in this country who are legal citizens who can't say that. Besides birthright, why should the drains on society get to stay and the useful, contributing members get booted?

But as for the unsustainable influx coming over the Mexican border, that should probably be stopped. I agree with jnettie, we should look to helping Mexico be a better place to live. There's a reason Canadians aren't sneaking over the border and it's not because there's a big honking wall stopping them.

[AmyE]

I know quite a few people, too, who came here on student visas and just never went back. Even they have little incentive to become legal. Because they entered legally, they can't be deported (but they can't ever leave here, either), and at this point it would be so expensive and so difficult to become citizens, there's really no good reason why they should.



Just a really quick correction (sorry jnettie!) and I hope I don't derail things: if you entered legally, but are no longer doing what your visa says you came to do (such as you came as a student, and you are no longer a student) OR you came legally but you are here longer than you were allowed to stay (it was stamped on the passport upon entering the U.S.) then you can be deported. However, the reality is that unless you do something else that is a criminal offense, you will probably not come to the attention of the Immigration and Customs Enforcement people. So, although you are legally 'deportable,' it's unlikely they will come to find you under the current system and actually do it. FWIW, most people in the US who are here illegally actually entered legally, then overstayed or are out of status. But the numbers are millions and millions and the govt barely has enough resources to track down the cases of people who have committed other crimes (besides just the immigration one).

The people can leave, but if they did, when they applied for their next visa it would be clear that they were in the US either out of status or longer than they were supposed to be here. That makes them ineligible for another visa unless they get a waiver, and that's a big PITA.

[ysolde]

Unfortunately, stories like yours come up all too frequently. I know of quite a few people whom have had difficulty getting spouses here. I have a friend in fact that has been trying for 10 years to get his wife over here. I think it's situations like this that cause me to think the whole system needs to be overhauled.

My situation was quite similar to BMR's. I married my H, a dual German/Austrian citizen. He was here legally when we married. I am a native born US citizen, and have lived here my whole life. It took two years for us to get from filing to interview. When we had our interview, H was denied his permanent residence because we had not provided a certified translation of his birth certificate. (We provided everything required; the certified translation is technically only requested, and is for people who lack other proof of place and date of birth. We also provided all kinds of other things: photo albums, including our wedding album, travel photos, travel journals, all kinds of stuff). We provided the certified translation within ten days of the interview. Never heard back from INS. When we went to the website, our case turned up as if we had never gone to our interview. Which was quite frightening, because, technically, H could have been deported, and we had done everything right! At that point, we had to hire an immigration lawyer, who cost a pretty penny. It was a nightmare. H kept threatening to go back to Europe, where he no longer has any friends or family.

The system is broken, and while I don't think it's as simple as let them all in or kick them all out (I am intrigued by guest worker programs), I have to wonder about a system that gives so much discretion to bureaucrats who immediately use any excuse to invalidate the marriage between a foreigner and someone with a disability. Our case should have been straightforward: we fell in love, we got married, we wanted to live in the same country. Because I am in a wheelchair, it was not "believable."

[shaqangel]

It's interesting reading this discussion. dh and i are amongst those who came here legally and are trying to get residence legally. its costing us a fortune and its taking forever. the system is definitely messed up and we're actually giving it a few more months and then thinking of other options cos quite frankly the money we've spent so far and the lawyers bills are just ridiculous and its all in the hands of someone just reading our application who has the power to say yay or nay. I dont care to stay here illegally and not be able to ever go home to visit and stay with my family for extended periods. I know plenty of people who are here illegally and are working illegally but they're fine with it.

one example that is really ticking us of right now is that in TN internationals have a different drivers license - well dh needs to get his renewed and he's been there twice now and they refuse to renew it cos that type of license is only valid for one year. he has all the documentation to get the regular license but they still wont give it to him so now he's had to contact the congressman (i think) office and they are going to see what they can do. he has to have his license to get to work.

we desperatly want to go home to see our family but we cant - if we travel outside the US our application will get dropped out of the system. dh's brother died in may last year and he couldnt even go home for the funeral. all these ridiculous stipulations are just not necessary. this is very frustrating for us. and its actually really difficult to explain what you're going through cos no one seems to understand how complicated and drawn out this whole thing is.

[BlackMagicRose]

My situation was quite similar to BMR's. I married my H, a dual German/Austrian citizen. He was here legally when we married. I am a native born US citizen, and have lived here my whole life. It took two years for us to get from filing to interview. When we had our interview, H was denied his permanent residence because we had not provided a certified translation of his birth certificate. (We provided everything required; the certified translation is technically only requested, and is for people who lack other proof of place and date of birth. We also provided all kinds of other things: photo albums, including our wedding album, travel photos, travel journals, all kinds of stuff). We provided the certified translation within ten days of the interview. Never heard back from INS. When we went to the website, our case turned up as if we had never gone to our interview. Which was quite frightening, because, technically, H could have been deported, and we had done everything right! At that point, we had to hire an immigration lawyer, who cost a pretty penny. It was a nightmare. H kept threatening to go back to Europe, where he no longer has any friends or family."

This scares the crap out of me! God...where do I even begin???!!! I have looked up the application you need, but I had no idea they would require photos and such!!! Wow...

I guess I am going to need a lot of money for an immigrations lawyer...

[keska]

I'm an ICE attorney, but I've been a private immigration attorney too, so I've seen both sides. Both sides are equally challenging for their own reasons.

[DaniML]

This scares the crap out of me! God...where do I even begin???!!! I have looked up the application you need, but I had no idea they would require photos and such!!! Wow...

I guess I am going to need a lot of money for an immigrations lawyer...
The reason for photos and the such is to support the proof that you have married out of good faith, because you were in love. They want to see that you are actually together.

I'm a German citizen and have gone through the very lengthy process of living in this country legally. My ex was in the military (stationed in Germany) when we got married and we even had a son. When we moved here we had been married less than 2 years so I had a "Conditional Status" on my green card. After 2 years I had to get that status removed. When I filed we were still together. A year later we seperated and I still had not gotten an answer on my application. We remained seperated (instead of divorcing) for 2 years before we finally filed for a divorce. By the time I finally got an interview, we were divorced. As a result I had to refile (and pay again) with a waiver. I had to proove that we got married in good faith (which we did), had to show pictures, etc. From beginning to end it took me 4 years to get my permanent green card. In the meantime I had to drive 2 1/2 hours to the closest INS office every 6 months to get a new stamp in my passport.

Having gone through all that, illegal immigration irks me to no end. If the government were to allow all current illegals to stay and gain residency/citizenship it would be like laughing at everyone who has gone through this process and saying "Ha, you're stupid for doing it the legal way".

I agree that we need a reform and unfortunatly I'm not sure what that should be.

I do have to wonder though, if someone is here illegaly and working they are obviously not paying taxes. Why exactly should they reap the benefits? Why should they have the same rights as someone who pays taxes and obides the law? And, some (or a lot, don't know the number) of immigrants working here send all their money back home to their families. So, other than possibly paying rent and a few groceries, they are not even contributing to the economy. How is that helping the U.S.?

[villanelle75]

I am not opposed to amnesty. I don't love the idea in theory, but it seems like a practical solution based on where we currently are.

I think we need to secure the heck out of our borders. That, in combination with making legal immigration a bit easier and possibly a guest worker program, seems like the right combination of approaches.

[Delta]

No solutions but here are two interesting articles pertaining to this topic:

The first (http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200801/aging-boomers) is from Atlantic Monthly and it discusses America's need for young workers due to its aging population. She also talks about how these new seniors are going to need lots of services - low paying type jobs - as they become less independent.For the past two decades, the United States has been in a remarkable sweet spot as far as labor is concerned. The number of annual births was well below the mid-century peak, and the number of elderly was limited by the low birthrates from decades long gone—those of the Great Depression and World War II. As a result, the share of the nation’s population in its working years was exceptionally high. The workforce was swollen further—massively so—by the movement of women into paid work, and the accelerating influx of immigrants. But the percentage of women in the workforce seems to be leveling off, and future immigration rates, given the growing political backlash against immigrants, are anyone’s guess.

Now come the Boomers, 80 million strong, merrily planning their retirements. Watching their generation move from childhood through adulthood and into old age on demographic charts is like watching a pig move through a python. Thanks to the Boomers’ retirement, by 2020, even if immigration continues at roughly its current pace, the workforce looks likely to be only a little bigger than it is today. If immigration rates were to decline precipitously, all else being equal, the labor force would be roughly 1 million people smaller than it is now. (Of course, she only mentions immigrants, not illegal immigrants. I don't think there are many people out there who want to curb 'immigration', but rather the illegal, undocumented aspect of it.)


And then there is this article (http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_1_blacks_and_immigration.html) from City Journal about the increasing resentment that blacks are feeling towards immigrants and our immigration policies. What’s behind the anger, as the Pew data hint, is the rapid change that legal and illegal Hispanic immigration is bringing to longtime black locales. Places like South Los Angeles and Compton, California, have transformed, virtually overnight, into majority-Latino communities. Huge numbers of new immigrants have also surged beyond newcomer magnets California and New York to reach fast-growing southern states like North Carolina and Georgia, bringing change to communities where blacks had gained economic and political power after years of struggle against Jim Crow laws. Since 1990, North Carolina’s Hispanic population has exploded from 76,726 people to nearly 600,000, the majority of them ethnically Mexican. In Georgia, the Hispanic population grew nearly sevenfold, to almost 700,000, from 1990 to 2006.

This Latino “tsunami,” as Los Angeles–based Hispanic-American writer Nicolás Vaca calls it, has intensified the well-founded feeling among blacks that they’re losing economic ground to immigrants. True, early research, conducted in the wake of the big immigration reforms of the 1960s, suggested that the arrival of newcomers had little adverse impact on blacks—one study found that every 10 percent increase in immigration cut black wages by only 0.3 percent. But as the immigrant population has in some places grown six or seven times larger over the last four decades, the downward pull has become a vortex. A recent study by Harvard economist George Borjas and colleagues from the University of Chicago and the University of California estimates that immigration accounted for a 7.4 percentage-point decline in the employment rate of unskilled black males between 1980 and 2000. Even for black males with high school diplomas, immigration shrank employment by nearly 3 percentage points. While immigration hurts black and white low-wage workers, the authors note, the effect is three times as large on blacks because immigrants are more likely to compete directly with them for jobs.

A paradox? Or how can we reconcile these seemingly opposing positions?

[DaniML]

I don't think there are many people out there who want to curb 'immigration', but rather the illegal, undocumented aspect of it.)


That's exactly how I feel. Obviously I'm for immigartion (seeing as how I am an immigrant), just in a legal fashion.

[BlackMagicRose]

I totaly understand the photos and so on, but waiting TWO YEARS for an interview??? What is that about?? I hope that is different now!

Plus, I am so depressed about how much money this is going to cost. I am going to have to take a loan out just to get a lawyer and pay for all the paperwork that is needed. I have a college degree that I worked my ass off to get and I still get paid shit. I just want to be with the person I love and in a country I love.

I am so tired and about ready to give up on it all.

[DaniML]

BlackMagicRose, one lady at the INS office actually told me that part of the problem for me was that an election year was close. They were processing citizenship requests because those people would be able to vote. Permanent Residents can't vote. Yeah, it sucked.

I actually did everything without a lawyer. As long as there is nothing out of the ordinary (like he's already in the US illegaly, etc.) I'm not sure that you need one. Maybe get an initial consultation and go from there.

[LaughAtlantis]

We did everything to get my husband's green card without a lawyer too, and we are doing his citizenship now without a lawyer. Yes, the process is long. Yes, the questions they ask you are ridiculous. (Do you intend to commit genocide? Do you intend to engage in bigamy? Do you intend to engage in terrorist activities? Seriously. I barely made it through them asking those questions without laughing. Who would say yes??) But you can do it without a lawyer if you are thorough and keep your ducks in a row, and make sure you have EVERYTHING that they might possibly ask you for.

[BlackMagicRose]

I am taking a lawyer with me. The process terrifies me. Is my husband going to be able to live in the US while we wait for the interview? Will he be able to get a workers permit? I want to have a baby soon...:(

[DaniML]

From what I understand, no, your husband cannot live in the U.S. while you are waiting for his Visa. If he was already here on another Visa it would be different. But since you are applying in Austria I'm pretty sure he has to wait there until the interview/approval. Once he gets that you guys can move. They will send his green card to your U.S. address. He can even apply for a SSN before he gets the card as long as he has the letter from the INS saying that he will get his green card.

I'm not 100% sure on the above, but you can go to the INS web site and it explains it all in pretty great detail.

[DaniML]

We did everything to get my husband's green card without a lawyer too, and we are doing his citizenship now without a lawyer. Yes, the process is long. Yes, the questions they ask you are ridiculous. (Do you intend to commit genocide? Do you intend to engage in bigamy? Do you intend to engage in terrorist activities? Seriously. I barely made it through them asking those questions without laughing. Who wouldd say yes??) But you can do it without a lawyer if you are thorough and keep your ducks in a row, and make sure you have EVERYTHING that they might possibly ask you for.

LOL yeah, I found those questions to be pretty hillarious too!!!

[BlackMagicRose]

From what I understand, no, your husband cannot live in the U.S. while you are waiting for his Visa. If he was already here on another Visa it would be different. But since you are applying in Austria I'm pretty sure he has to wait there until the interview/approval. Once he gets that you guys can move. They will send his green card to your U.S. address. He can even apply for a SSN before he gets the card as long as he has the letter from the INS saying that he will get his green card.

I'm not 100% sure on the above, but you can go to the INS web site and it explains it all in pretty great detail.

No, we are not applying here. We are applying after we have been married for two years and after I get an address in the US. I am moving back to the US to get a job so I can afford to bring him over.

[bea_mama]

BlackMagicRose - we went through the process to get my husband's green card a few years ago - I think it took about 1 1/2 years to get through the entire process. We did have a lawyer, but I think we could have done it ourselves - just save and document and double check everything.

We started the process right after 9/11 which really slowed everything down.

We brought our wedding and honeymoon albums to our interview - I was amazed when the interviewer went through each one page by page (they were huge!). And the questions on the form are actually hilarious.

Good luck!

[LaughAtlantis]

We brought our wedding and honeymoon albums to our interview - I was amazed when the interviewer went through each one page by page (they were huge!). And the questions on the form are actually hilarious.
I was actually surprised by how little attention was paid to our wedding and photo albums. Rod was in the country on a work visa when we started dating and then got engaged. His company laid him off and so we went to get him a fiancee visa ASAP but we were only dating for six months when we got engaged, and had only been together for 15 months total when we eventually got married. And yet they barely glanced at our albums - which we had carefully assembled to show the whole history of our relationship, from meeting to wedding and beyond.

I hate to say it, but I think it helps that my husband is Scottish. He's white, European, with a tech background that is what brought him to the country in the first place. The INS may be far more scrupulous when it comes to people of other backgrounds.

[BlackMagicRose]

I hate to say it, but I think it helps that my husband is Scottish. He's white, European, with a tech background that is what brought him to the country in the first place. The INS may be far more scrupulous when it comes to people of other backgrounds.

My husband is also white from Europe and also has a Tech background. He has his own Graphics business and medical imaging software. I hope this helps...

[ysolde]

I was actually surprised by how little attention was paid to our wedding and photo albums. Rod was in the country on a work visa when we started dating and then got engaged. His company laid him off and so we went to get him a fiancee visa ASAP but we were only dating for six months when we got engaged, and had only been together for 15 months total when we eventually got married. And yet they barely glanced at our albums - which we had carefully assembled to show the whole history of our relationship, from meeting to wedding and beyond.

I hate to say it, but I think it helps that my husband is Scottish. He's white, European, with a tech background that is what brought him to the country in the first place. The INS may be far more scrupulous when it comes to people of other backgrounds.


My H is white, German, blond, blue-eyed. He has a Master's in Computer Systems Engineering and an MBA, both from Columbia University. I am white, blonde, and hazel-eyed. I am an attorney, with degrees from Harvard, Stanford, and NYU. We had a small (50 something guest) wedding at a Four Seasons Hotel. We had invitations from Tiffany (which were among the things we showed our interviewer). I am Episcopalian, H is Dutch Reformed. I am in the Junior League. We could not be more boring and WASPy if we had relatives on the Mayflower (which, on my cousin's side of the family, I actually do, by marriage). No, it doesn't necessarily help.

We applied in NY, because that's where we live. We applied about a year and a half after 9/11. Luck of the draw. Our interviewer was not from NY. He was from California, and had been lent out, because NY was so overwhelmed. He told us he just "needed" the certified translation of H's birth certificate (he didn't, but it is all in the interviewer's discretion). He told us if he received it within three weks, H would have his PR status within 2 months. WRONG! Somehow, someone input into the BCIS computer that we had never been to the interview, although our file clearly indicated otherwise (the file even included several of our wedding test shots, which the interviewer decided to keep as evidence of the bona fides of our marriage, stating that it was clear that no one would spend that kind of money on a sham marriage). Because of the discrepancy between the computer record and the file record, no one knew what to do. We were in limbo.

Fortunately, we hired an attorney who knew people at BCIS, and he got things moving FAST. As soon as he got involved, H got his "green card" in less than two weeks. Someone at BCIS dug up our file (which had apparently been sent to the "warehouse"), and told our lawyer, "Oops!"

[keska]

(Do you intend to commit genocide? Do you intend to engage in bigamy? Do you intend to engage in terrorist activities? Seriously. I barely made it through them asking those questions without laughing. Who would say yes??)

These are things that would make someone inadmissible under statute. An applicant's eligibility for adjustment of status can't be established without asking all these questions. It's the same reason they need to know the applicant's criminal history and method of last entry into the U.S.

Also, you have to be aware that these applications are maintained in a permanent file. If the Immigration Svc later discovers that someone lied about one of these things, their status will be revoked. It happens all the time. Finally, if they are caught in a lie, they can be charged with fraud.

[jnettie]

A friend's DH was stuck in Norway for nearly 2 years. She has a PhD, and I know he has a Master. They even had a child who spent the first year of her life practically without her father. He was finally allowed in the country last year and just got his Green Card. And you don't get much more white than Norway!

[LaughAtlantis]

These are things that would make someone inadmissible under statute. An applicant's eligibility for adjustment of status can't be established without asking all these questions. It's the same reason they need to know the applicant's criminal history and method of last entry into the U.S.

Also, you have to be aware that these applications are maintained in a permanent file. If the Immigration Svc later discovers that someone lied about one of these things, their status will be revoked. It happens all the time. Finally, if they are caught in a lie, they can be charged with fraud.

I do understand all that. But there is something about being read this list of questions aloud that verges on the ridiculous. It doesn't make sense that any sane person would slip up and confess to actually applying for a green card exclusively in order to kill the president. Most of the questions are not about your person history, but about your intentions. And I cannot understand for the life of me why they asked my husband, a 31 year old man, if he was an active member of the Nazi party in Germany between 1938 and 1945. Come on, he was born in 1976! It's like, couldn't they just skip that question and put "not applicable" in that spot?

[DaniML]

I also understand why they ask those questions. But that doesn't make it any less funny. :)