Conservatives, tell me why you like Romney? [Archive]

gayle

01-23-2008, 04:47 PM

I am really curious. as I see it the Republican nomination is coming down to Romney/Mcain. Personally, as a Democrat, I would rather see the nomination go to Romney, only becuase I see that as benefitting the possibility of my, more liberal, party taking the Presidency

I dislike certain things about Romney, but IMHO, he is a viable candidate. and for some reason, I believe in his honesty more than McCain, or Giuliani.

Keep in mind I am a DIE HARD Democrat, but I also look at what might happen if Republicans, yet again, take the Presidency. On that end, Romney is looking good to me. So, for those of you who are Republicans, or on the fence, why is Romney a better candidate than MCain (who I like, but I just can't believe in anymore).

Honest question here.

gayle

01-23-2008, 06:50 PM

NOBODY has an opinion on Romney, I am shocked.

HeatherFL

01-23-2008, 07:42 PM

Gayle, I hesitate to post in this thread because, frankly, I am not as schooled in politics as many of the ladies here. (Making it a point to learn a lot more.)

Disclaimer: I am not guaranteeing 101% accuracy. If something I've written here is incorrect, I'm happy to be directed to a resource that will clarify. Thank you.

I'll say it. I like the guy. I just think he's likable. I'm a registered independent, leaning toward Obama, but I do have my eye on Romney. He's a businessman, the type of person who goes in and turns things around: buying failing companies and then makes them profitable, they brought him in for the Utah Olympics and he landed the big sponsors when it was predicted to fail. Perhaps this experience is something that can be used to turn around this financial mess we are in. I can't say the guy is perfect, but I don't know...of all the candidates I don't really question his moral character as much as I do the others (though Obama gives me the warm fuzzies more than the other Democratic candidates.)

My concern is that he changed his mind on some of the issues, like abortion. I can even understand his explanation-"I changed my mind." People do have the right to do that. The fact he is a Mormon does not bother me, and I like the way he dealt with Huckabee's comments regarding his faith. Still I wonder if his faith will spill over into his decisions (such as supporting the Federal Marriage Protection Amendment.) I do like that he's in favor of scrapping the No Child Left Behind Act because (in my opinion) it doesn't work. Still familiarizing myself with his healthcare stance. Not sure that I'm in total agreement with his Economic Stimulus Plan. I can see eye to eye with him on a lot of what he says about immigration, I'd just hope he'd actually stick to his plans.

That written, I had read he really helped the budget in MA while governor there, but it was pointed out to me in another thread he didn't do much for the state. So interested in learning more about that too.

Not sure that is what you were going for, but that's it in a nutshell.

~H.

Delta

01-23-2008, 08:00 PM

I think he'd be a great president. I'm not totally gah-gah over him (for no reason in particular, he's just so bland, I guess) but I don't get the Romney hate, either.

I'll be happy with either Romney or McCain. Romney I can trust more as a conservative, but McCain is more electable. My feelings in general go back and forth about McCain, actually, but I'd be fine with him as the nominee. Although his VP would be REALLY important due to his age. I don't know that I could vote for him if he picked Huck, for instance. And I am serious about that. On second thought, if Hillary was the nominee I'd definitely vote for a McCain/Huck ticket, but if Obama was the nominee, I'd probably vote Obama. Holy Crap.

I don't really have much to say about Romney for some reason. That's unusual.

gayle

01-23-2008, 08:09 PM

gayle

01-23-2008, 08:35 PM

I am not Gah Gah over anybody. I am just trying to figure out who I can live with. And of that ilk, on both sides, those people seem to be Clinton, Obama, McCain, and Romney.

Honestly, I think all off em are ethical, strong, and capable.

For the first time in over 20 years, I don't feel like the Republican party is just trying to make some big money/oil business deal figurehead (like we have had for the past 8)., and I am honestly looking at their people for the first time, without extreme hate and attitude.

I actually really like McCain, but he's such a flexor. Romney looks like such an honestly good guy. Actually, after Bush, I could accept EITHER of these two as the next President.

I do however prefer, Hillary....

miel

01-23-2008, 09:15 PM

I want to know the answer too! My husband and I call Romney 'the robot.' He seems like kind of an android bred for the presidency or something. I can't muster up any special feelings for him one way or the other because he seems so plastic. It's like I just can't even see the person there.

I admit I defended him heatedly over the religion question to some people. I think that kind of thing should be out of bounds. Of course, it's impossible to keep it out of bounds when that is your party's base. I think the reason some people might not like him is religious prejudice. But that's not your question!!! Why do people like him?

LDS Angel 19

01-24-2008, 11:04 AM

I like him because he's Mormon. ;)

Kidding. Not too long ago, I was really torn between Romney and McCain. I ended up voting for Romney in our (MI) Primary. I liked what he said when he was here about the economy, and around here, that's the most important thing right now.

dionysia

01-24-2008, 11:28 AM

Not a conservative, obviously, but I lived through Mitt the Schitt as my governor and it was not pleasant.

I'd rather see McCain any day. At least McCain has integrity.

BeachBum

01-24-2008, 11:41 AM

You know at first, I really didn't like Romney. I felt like he was "too slick" and very politician like. But the more I see about him the more I feel like I misjudged him because of his hair. :D
I saw somewhere that he spent some time overseas and they attributed that to him kind of missing out on the some of the pop culture nuances.
From what I see of him now, he seems just like a really straight laced guy. Probably really nice on a one on one level.
I very much admire his work in the business world and love the fact that he had a real career before he was a politician. I think turning around companies and doing venture capital is gutsy and stressful. I like the fact that he liked it. It makes me confident that the can make tough decisions.
I do a agree with a lot of his stands on issues, but not all (I never do though).

I don't like McCain, I just disagree with more of his political views.
I do like Rudy, but the public nature and mess of his private life bothers me. I just it just doesn't seem presidential.
Huckabee is very likable. He is the most charismatic and I think could be very electable because of that. He reminds me of Bill Clinton in that way. It is such a refreshing change from Bush who is so awkward on camera. But, I just don't agree with his issues as much as I do Mitt.

nylons73

01-24-2008, 12:32 PM

I am still an undecided democrat (leaning towards Obama at this point.) I would vote for a couple of Republicans (McCain, Guliani) but not Romney. The fact that he changed his views in a little under 18 months makes no sense to me. His last day as Gov. of Massachusetts was in Jan. 2007. While he was Gov. of Mass he was pro-choice and gay friendly. Now that he's running for president he's pro-life and anti-gay marriage. Sorry. I don't understand how quickly you can change your mind on those (and other) issues.

At any rate, this is pretty funny (and shows what someone was saying about how he has 'missed' the pop-culture of our time. I mean "Who Let the Dogs Out?" at least he didn't go McHammer on us. ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDwwAaVmnf4

diam124

01-24-2008, 12:38 PM

The fact that he changed his views in a little under 18 months makes no sense to me. His last day as Gov. of Massachusetts was in Jan. 2007. While he was Gov. of Mass he was pro-choice and gay friendly. Now that he's running for president he's pro-life and anti-gay marriage. Sorry. I don't understand how quickly you can change your mind on those (and other) issues.

I completely agree. Not that it's necessarily bad to change your opinion, but he obviously seems to change his views to fit the voters he is courting. I mean, those are pretty big issues and ones that generally produce strong opinions one way or the other. The wishy-washyness makes no sense to me. It makes me think there is an integrity issue there.

gayle

01-24-2008, 12:39 PM

I completely agree. Not that it's necessarily bad to change your opinion, but he obviously seems to change his views to fit the voters he is courting. I mean, those are pretty big issues and ones that generally produce strong opinions one way or the other. The wishy-washiness makes no sense to me. It makes me think there is an integrity issue there.

I agree here. Shall we say flip flopper? LOL

ysolde

01-24-2008, 12:53 PM

But never a hair out of place!

imagirliegirl

01-24-2008, 01:05 PM

At any rate, this is pretty funny (and shows what someone was saying about how he has 'missed' the pop-culture of our time. I mean "Who Let the Dogs Out?" at least he didn't go McHammer on us. ;)

What an idiot. :rolleyes:

PG-rated

01-24-2008, 02:29 PM

Not a conservative, obviously, but I lived through Mitt the Schitt as my governor and it was not pleasant.
I have a lot of friends who live in Massachusetts. The above sentence sums up the feelings of approximately 100% of them.

When I think about a Republican president, I look for someone who would be willing to go toe-to-toe with the rabid theocrats and right-wingnuts. I used to think McCain was that person, but after I saw how he bowed and scraped to get in the good graces of the right wing in 2004, I have my doubts. I'd like to think he'd have more political courage if he were in the Oval Office, but I don't know. However, there is no doubt in my mind that Mitt Romney would happily give the radicals whatever they wanted if it got him a veto-proof majority.

strwbrygirl

01-24-2008, 05:12 PM

I just moved out of MA, and I'd agree with the above as well. I'm not a conservative, but I could vote for McCain. Just not Mitt the Twit.

betsyboop

01-24-2008, 07:09 PM

Interesting, fellow MA residents- DH and I actually really liked Romney as governor:o

bookworm

01-24-2008, 07:20 PM

Interesting, fellow MA residents- DH and I actually really liked Romney as governor:o

No need to :o (:)), but can you explain why? I might have voted for him against O'Brian (I lived out of state for a short-but-felt-long while in 2002 so I voted elsewhere and was spared that decision), but he seemed to change his mind on everything once he actually had the job (and, of course, he spent most of his time trashing the state down south while he was still governor, but that's another rant for another day). In addition to the mind-changing, I thought he was awful at trying to work with a democratic legislature--he would either stonewall or whine about not getting his way (except on healthcare, from which he has tried to distance himself).

For those who said he was pro-choice and pro-gay rights in MA, those positions lasted about 5 minutes after he took the oath of office.

Delta

01-24-2008, 07:21 PM

Yeah - Gimme some details besides the Twitt and Shitt stuff. Was it true bad leadership or just partisan issues? I don't like that he vetoed the formula bag ban, but that's really all I know about his time as governor. Well, and I know somewhat about the heath insurance plan stuff, too. The mandates, etc. How is that working?

ETA - Interesting, bookworm. I really have not done my homework about Romney at all. He seems like a really nice guy, at least. Mormons tend to be. Is that religionist? And his family is nice looking. That's a good reason to vote for him.

bookworm

01-24-2008, 07:26 PM

Well, and I know somewhat about the heath insurance plan stuff, too. The mandates, etc. How is that working?

Erm, not all that well, I think. At least it's more expensive than they thought it would be (http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/01/24/cost_of_health_initiative_up_400m/) (shocking!). And I have yet another form to submit with taxes. I hate forms.

Delta

01-24-2008, 07:32 PM

The biggest driver of the cost increase is projected growth in the number of people signing up for state-subsidized insurance, which now far exceeds earlier estimates.So if he were the nominee against Hillary could he in effect end up campaigning against a health plan that he supported at one time? Funny. (You know, because Hillary supports mandated insurance.) He could say he changed his mind because it ended up being too expensive and then I guess she could accuse him of doing it wrong and then he could blame the MA legislature. My head is spinning now.

dionysia

01-25-2008, 11:09 AM

Except that he's touting his MA plan as something he'd want to roll out nationwide.

He made it so obvious that the MA governorship was a stepping stone to the presidency, it was absurd.

strwbrygirl

01-25-2008, 11:54 AM

Here are a few things to check out for more about Mitt's past.

Romney's Journey to the Right (http://www.boston.com/news/local/politics/candidates/articles/2006/12/17/romneys_journey_to_the_right/?page=1)

Now, with less than three weeks left in office, the governor will leave Beacon Hill a far more socially conservative voice than when he arrived in 2002, and when he ran for Senate in 1994. On stem cell research, abortion, emergency contraception, abstinence education, and gay rights, Romney's shifts to more conservative positions have estranged him from a state that elected him as a moderate.

Yet, while Romney's tack rightward has helped make him a top-tier national candidate, his past stances as a Massachusetts politician have stirred doubt among Republican activists, bloggers, pundits, and prominent Christian leaders about whether he is a true conservative or merely repackaged himself for political gain.

Then and Now (http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2006/12/17/changing_views/)

The Making of Mitt Romney (7 part series) (http://www.boston.com/news/politics/2008/specials/romney/)

Mitt at a Planned Parenthood rally/fundraising party in 1994 (http://www.bluemassgroup.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=9740)

Romney: "I'm a Conservative Republican" (http://www.examiner.com/a-411803~Romney___I_m_a_conservative_Republican_.htm l)

Romney was less charitable to McCain, who on Sunday told ABC News: “I believe that the issue of gay marriage should be decided by the states.” McCain also said, “I believe that gay marriage should not be legal.”

Romney seized on the remarks.

“That’s his position, and in my opinion, it’s disingenuous,” he said. “Look, if somebody says they’re in favor of gay marriage, I respect that view. If someone says — like I do — that I oppose same–sex marriage, I respect that view. But those who try and pretend to have it both ways, I find it to be disingenuous.”

A spokesman for McCain could not be reached for comment Monday.

Unlike McCain and Giuliani, Romney supports amending the U.S. Constitution to ban gay marriage. He also wants to amend the Massachusetts Constitution, although the state legislature this month balked at putting the question of gay marriage to voters.

Delta

01-25-2008, 04:06 PM

He made it so obvious that the MA governorship was a stepping stone to the presidency, it was absurd.Should he have been coy like Hillary, then? ;)

Thanks for the links, strwbrygirl. No doubt he's shifted positions on social issues. But that doesn't bother me too much and I don't know why - of the 3 traditional conservative pillars that is the one I am least concerned with. I guess it's also because I don't have much choice at this point. He's not my ideal candidate but (if we could have had Fred Thompson's principles delivered it Mitt's package that would have been best, IMO) his success in the private sector and as an executive is a HUGE plus to me, though.

Romney did pretty well in the debate last night. McCain and Huck hate the guy, though. That is apparent. Huck made a cheap shot about Romney's sons' inheritance being spent on the campaign. He is so awful. There should be a rule that you aren't allowed to make cheap shots using people's family members in these debates.

gayle

01-25-2008, 06:16 PM

I watched, and that cheap shot Huck made made me hope that he is firmly out of the running. Romney, record wise, has flip/flopped alot, but in his defense (can ya believe it, I am defending a conservative???) so has almost every other candidate of the past 20 years.

I am not a Republican, but I gotta say, there is something appealling about the guy, I think it's his experience and success in the private sector, economically the guy is pretty sound. And, for some unknown reason, I trust him. NOT that I am voting for him mind you, LOL. I'll be supporting whoever my party nominates.

I still think that Romney, should he get the nomination, has a far less likely chance of winning the POTUS than McCain, so, selfishly, I hope the Republicans nominate Romney, which is why I am watching this closely.

nylons73

01-26-2008, 06:47 AM

I still think that Romney, should he get the nomination, has a far less likely chance of winning the POTUS than McCain, so, selfishly, I hope the Republicans nominate Romney, which is why I am watching this closely.

I totally disagree with you. Right now, McCain is getting votes of independents and conservatives whom have trouble with Romney's record, religion, what have you. However, put Romney up there as the 'only' Republican choice and he's definitely more appealing to the base than McCain. Romney is 25+ years younger than McCain, and has got the good looks and 'suave' that JM doesn't have. Futhermore, now that Romney has changed most of his social views, he now aligns well with the Christian Right.

As a democrat I am scared to death of a Romney challenge. He's Regan 2.0. (with a little more economic know-how than old Ronnie.) On election day, the base will turn out for Romney in a way that they might not turn out for JM.

ETA: I am really struck by the fact that so many in here (Democrat and Republican alike) are 'not that concerned' about Romney's total change of ideology in only a few years! How does that not bother you? If Huckabee came out and said, yes, I was a member of the KKK, but now I see that as wrong and I am going to pursue talks with the Congressional Black Caucus, I would be just as dubious. Romney took solid stances on key important issues to a lot of people here (already discussed in other threads) and the fact that he did a 180 on those issues doesn't really seem to be a fly in many people's ointment. That shocks me. If he's not going to tell the truth about where he stands on things, what else is he not going to tell us the truth about? I, for one, have had enough of a president who lies as a part of his daily routine.

I hear a lot about Romney "Well, so has everyone else." Um, no, that would be incorrect. Where has Obama changed his stance on stem-cell research or abortion? Where has Hillary? Changing your mind about the best way to create Peace in the Middle East (like both Bill Clinton and George W. seem to have done towards the end of their terms) is very very different from being elected and running under one set of principals and then turning around and running under the OPPOSITE set a few years later. Give me a break.

gayle

01-26-2008, 08:00 AM

nylons said
"
As a democrat I am scared to death of a Romney challenge. He's Regan 2.0. (with a little more economic know-how than old Ronnie.) On election day, the base will turn out for Romney in a way that they might not turn out for JM."

On the economic point, I agree. However, I think he will split the moderate vote due to his conservatism, particularly his religious conservatism. Most moderate republicans that I know are REALLY sick of the Christian right running the show, given a choice between Rommey and Obama or Clinton, I think they'd swing left.

MCain is a bigger threat as I see it, precisely because he DOES appeal to moderates.

diam124

01-26-2008, 08:01 AM

gayle

01-26-2008, 09:05 AM

diam, heck I could vote for McCain, and I am a very liberal Democrat. LOL

ginadc

01-26-2008, 10:27 AM

I couldn't vote for McCain. He would be my least awful of the lot of Republicans, but he's just as likely to appoint Supreme Court Justices that will overturn Roe v. Wade, and that's just an utter dealbreaker for me. I do respect him more than the rest, but that's not enough.

The only Republican I could ever vote for would be someone like Bill Cohen, who would never get the nomination anyway.

Niobe

01-26-2008, 09:03 PM

ETA: I am really struck by the fact that so many in here (Democrat and Republican alike) are 'not that concerned' about Romney's total change of ideology in only a few years! How does that not bother you? If Huckabee came out and said, yes, I was a member of the KKK, but now I see that as wrong and I am going to pursue talks with the Congressional Black Caucus, I would be just as dubious. Romney took solid stances on key important issues to a lot of people here (already discussed in other threads) and the fact that he did a 180 on those issues doesn't really seem to be a fly in many people's ointment. That shocks me. If he's not going to tell the truth about where he stands on things, what else is he not going to tell us the truth about? I, for one, have had enough of a president who lies as a part of his daily routine.

I hear a lot about Romney "Well, so has everyone else." Um, no, that would be incorrect. Where has Obama changed his stance on stem-cell research or abortion? Where has Hillary? Changing your mind about the best way to create Peace in the Middle East (like both Bill Clinton and George W. seem to have done towards the end of their terms) is very very different from being elected and running under one set of principals and then turning around and running under the OPPOSITE set a few years later. Give me a break.
ITA. I look at Romney and I see a liar who will take whatever stance his voter base wants a candidate to have. I see zero strength of character. I see a charlatan, a con artist. I certainly don't see someone I could ever trust to do what he says he will.

MCain is a bigger threat as I see it, precisely because he DOES appeal to moderates.
I agree. There's a lot of swing voters who will vote for McCain but not Romney, and not *that* many Republicans who truly detest him that I've seen. If Romney gets the nominations, Obama will get the swing voters, and also stands to pick up the Republicans who are sick of the religious right. And if we're extra-lucky, the crazy right-wingers who dislike Romney for being Mormon will just stay home. I'll take Romney as the Republican candidate (actually, I'm holding out hope for Huckabee getting the nod).

Delta

01-27-2008, 10:09 AM

Romney used to strike me in that way too - as slick and pandering, but for some reason I can't see it anymore. I don't know why. Perhaps because he's over the months been humanized a little - seeing his family, seeing him stumble in the debates, etc. I also think that of the 5 R candidates left, Romney is the least loony. Our choices aren't outstanding, really. I mean, I do like Romney. I think he's not necessarily a small government conservative like Thompson, but I think he gets it better than the other candidates. I see no reason why he'd sell out conservatives if he becomes president like I could see McCain doing.

Niobe

01-27-2008, 10:14 AM

I also think that of the 5 R candidates left, Romney is the least loony. Our choices aren't outstanding, really.

Your choices make the California recall election look great. As much as I dislike the guy, I will agree that he looks the least loony. He does seem sane at least.

Have you given up and just switched sides yet? No one could ever blame you. It's really not so bad over here on the left. :)

nylons73

01-27-2008, 09:37 PM

Nylons - do you feel the same way about McCain (that most Republicans would get behind him and he would have a legitimate shot?). Just curious.

I really hope McCain gets the nomination because I would vote for him. But, as of right now I do think it's more likely that Romney will get it and I don't think I would vote for him.

McCain as the nominee will be interesting. I think that Republicans will get behind him but I think that the Evangelical base of the party won't turn out and vote for him (and when they turn out, boy do they turn out!) This will leave McCain and (hopefully) Obama to fight over independents and moderates. Then, I think the war will be the central issue. Obama is for pulling out, McCain is definitely for staying in (for now and in the near future). That will be an interesting series of debates!

I do think that if McCain gets the Rep. nom and Hillary (I mean Billary) gets the Democratic nomination, McCain will win. Moderates and Independents will vote for JM. (Billary = polarizing!)

diam124

01-28-2008, 07:23 AM

Yep, I think you're right. I really do not understand why the far right doesn't seem to be putting any support towards McCain (I've heard many comments over the last few days that the far right would just stay home on election day rather than vote for McCain). He is the only Republican candidate who would attract swing voters IMO. Would they honestly rather have a Democrat win? It makes no sense to me.

LyLMyssChaos

01-28-2008, 07:30 AM

I think the issue with McCain is that in some opinions he has earned the reputation of a RINO (Republican in name only.) He has been far "too friendly" with the left, particularly in recent years for the tastes of some.

Niobe

01-28-2008, 09:45 AM

miel

01-28-2008, 05:32 PM

I'm totally going off topic but you I just remembered two sort of surprising things (to me) about Romney. One was that I felt he was treated unfairly because of his religion. It really bothered me that his religion was an issue. The other was the thing about marching with MLK, Jr. I also thought that was just a spin thing where he misspoke and meant one thing and he was attacked for meaning the other thing.

It's funny that Romney can't attract swing voters because he was kind of a centrist until recently! He did attract swing voters in MA. Maybe he can swing back a bit. I don't see that he could never, ever, ever attract swing voters. But then he is not going to fire up the base if he does that. Between a rock and a hard place.

meatpie

01-31-2008, 11:10 AM

I don't like Romney. And I will try to explain later, but mostly because I really, really like John McCain. The only thing I don't love about McCain is his history of appointing VERY conservative judges because if they turn back Roe v Wade I will be so sorry for our country, for women, for families, etc.

Anyway...to me Mitt is John Kerry 2008. His wavering on social issues these past few years is inexcuseable. What's interesting to me is people seem to think he is not part of the political machine, that he's not a climber because of his experience in the private sector (?) I don't get that line of thinking. Flopping on key party issues to get a nomination, the support of the GOP, and even worse elected as he did in MA is exactly that - calculating and totally unbecoming as a candidate in my view.

Now his religion does not bother me. Interestingly enough his religion bothers our friends who were raised Mormom and whose families are still active in the church. I've tried to talk to my friend about writing an op-ed about why a Mormon fears a Mormon but have had no such luck yet. He HATES Mitt, but mostly hates Republicans...anyway.

The GOP powers that got Bush elected are afraid of McCain and that's another reason why I like McCain (but I don't vote along party lines). They don't trust he will appoint conservatives in his cabinet. McCain is the ONLY candidate out there that can effectively govern, who has the experience to turn Iraq around, who can handle immigration, and who has the foreign policy experience. Here's the other thing the GOP hates about McCain, they can't dictate his VP nom like they did with Bush. As one reporter said "He could pick a Jewish democrat for all they know." I don't think Huck has a shot at the VP even though Huck might be able to deliver the christian vote.

Anyway...I admire McCain. He is not loony. The GOP wanted voters to question whether the years he was a POW in Vietnam because they wanted Bush elected because they could and have controled him and the White House. It's spin. This is a man who has dedicated his life to public service and his family. Who adpoted three children, who is dedicated to our veterans, who spent his life in service for this country. If he's not Presidential I'm afraid no one is. He is the right candidate but I don't think we'll see a Republican in office in 09, unless Hillary gets the nom. Then it will be just ugly period.

I'm babbling now.

diam124

01-31-2008, 11:40 AM

I think if it's McCain vs. Hillary, McCain has a pretty good shot. If it's McCain vs. Obama, I would think Obama would probably win.

I think Romney would lose against either Hillary or Obama.

Delta

01-31-2008, 11:55 AM

I think that for many conservatives, having John McCain as the Republican nominee is what it would be like for progressives if Joe Lieberman were the Democratic nominee. FTR, in the exit polls from NH, Michigan, SC and Florida, McCain lost among self-idendified Republicans. It's independents who are choosing the GOP nominee because the field has been so fractured.

The GOP powers that got Bush elected are afraid of McCain and that's another reason why I like McCainHere's the other thing the GOP hates about McCain, they can't dictate his VP nom like they did with Bush.What do you mean by these statements? The "GOP powers"?
As one reporter said "He could pick a Jewish democrat for all they know. Lieberman has already said he wouldn't do it.

bookworm

01-31-2008, 07:57 PM

Ack, I am way late coming back to this. But Romney is semi-distancing himself from the MA health plan--now he is saying it should be up to the states. They could do that, do something else, do nothing... I thought I had read that he was fully backing away, saying the mandate was forced by the evil liberals in MA, but I can't find a reference for that so maybe I made it up :).

I find the conservative identity crisis absolutely fascinating. I thought Giuliani would have been the one to bring it out--the fiscal conservative/libertarian/biblethumping elements have had a pretty uneasy relationship, and the party's standard-bearer has pretty much alienated the first two elements of the coalition. So what does "conservative" even mean anymore?

I still haven't even decided which primary to vote in. Since Edwards dropped out, I'm 99% sure I'll vote for the democrat in the general, and I'm still back and forth between Hillary (more qualified) and Obama (more electable?). So should I vote for McCain as an anti-Romney vote? Or does that mean he'll be elected in November and I'll have to survive his court nominees? I'm getting old. They might still be around when I die.

I have 4 days to figure this out. Because, you know, it all hangs on my vote ;).

Delta

01-31-2008, 08:28 PM

So what does "conservative" even mean anymore?

George Will's verbose contrasting of conservatism with liberalism I think sums it up for me.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/30/AR2007053002026_pf.html

In my mind, Fred Thompson was the only true conservative in this race.

I find the conservative identity crisis absolutely fascinating.I agree. I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that the best thing that can happen for the Republican party/conservative movement is for a D to win in November so they can regroup and find themselves a truly strong, articulate leader for 2012.

ThreeYell

01-31-2008, 08:36 PM

I think that for many conservatives, having John McCain as the Republican nominee is what it would be like for progressives if Joe Lieberman were the Democratic nominee.

Yep, I think that's the perfect comparison. And boy am I glad it's y'all having to struggle with it this time. ;)

miel

01-31-2008, 08:39 PM

That Will piece was interesting. Of course, I do not agree with his characterization of things entirely--some of the contrasts are specious-- but I think that would be a great thing to read if you wanted to understand conservativism from the conservative perspective. And I mean the 'old style' conservative, which has kind of died out in a certain way, just as old style liberalism has also died out politically.

But what does this mean? I just don't get it. It sounds like he's saying that conservatives just accept there is a welfare state to some degree. In other words, he seems to be kind of saying 'we're not libertarians.'

Steadily enlarging dependence on government accords with liberalism's ethic of common provision, and with the liberal party's interest in pleasing its most powerful faction -- public employees and their unions. Conservatism's rejoinder should be that the argument about whether there ought to be a welfare state is over. Today's proper debate is about the modalities by which entitlements are delivered. Modalities matter, because some encourage and others discourage attributes and attitudes -- a future orientation, self-reliance, individual responsibility for healthy living -- that are essential for dignified living in an economically vibrant society that a welfare state, ravenous for revenue in an aging society, requires.

PinkMartini

01-31-2008, 08:41 PM

I think if it's McCain vs. Hillary, McCain has a pretty good shot. If it's McCain vs. Obama, I would think Obama would probably win.

I think EITHER repub nominee would win over Hilary. I just don't think the U.S. would vote for a woman president at this point.

Delta

01-31-2008, 08:56 PM

That Will piece was interesting. Of course, I do not agree with his characterization of things entirely--some of the contrasts are specious-- but I think that would be a great thing to read if you wanted to understand conservativism from the conservative perspective. And I mean the 'old style' conservative, which has kind of died out in a certain way, just as old style liberalism has also died out politically.That's exactly right. And I think he had to do a lot of contrasting with liberalism in order to present the basis of conservatism. To be honest, his characterization of liberalism is exactly how I see it. I do believe that in general the liberal perspective is nothing but well-meaning, but also tends to be myopic.

But what does this mean? I just don't get it. It sounds like he's saying that conservatives just accept there is a welfare state to some degree. In other words, he seems to be kind of saying 'we're not libertarians.'I think they do. I don't think conservatism is libertarianism. I do think that society has an obligation to help those who truly cannot help themselves. Of course, therein lies a big part of the debate other than the 'modalities', which I see as pertaining to the 'teach a man to fish' philosophy.

miel

01-31-2008, 10:16 PM

To be honest, his characterization of liberalism is exactly how I see it. I do believe that in general the liberal perspective is nothing but well-meaning, but also tends to be myopic.

I have this vague, fuzzy understanding of how it looks from the other side. Partly it is blurred because my Goldwater Republican relatives became more and more fundamentalist Christian and then I forgot that Goldwater Republican worldview. But Will's statement of it completely clarifies this fuzzy idea I have. And also shows me how deeply intractable some of these disagreements could be because it is almost like a whole way of seeing the world.

LyLMyssChaos

02-01-2008, 05:47 AM

Yeah, who wants bipartisanship anymore?

I don't think it's a matter of "not wanting bipartisanship" so much as aligning yourself up too much with "the other side." I have no problem working with Democrats. But do not tell me that you are a Republican Conservative and then have your actions show be those of a Liberal Democrat. If I wanted a Liberal/Democrat, I would vote for one. I guess part of the issue comes in with the idea that ONLY Republicans can be conservative and that only Democrats can be liberal. There are some things that McCain has done that I just do not feel were conservative in action.

miel

02-01-2008, 09:50 PM

There are some things that McCain has done that I just do not feel were conservative in action.
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That's interesting. What were these things? I heard: Voted against the constitutional amendment against gay marriage, and voted against the tax cuts. Was there anything else?

I wonder why he voted against the constitutional amendment. I doubt he supports gay marriage. I'll bet he thought that we shouldn't go changing the constitution willy-nilly. That sounds pretty conservative to me. Does he support gay marriage? Secretly? That would be pretty wild if he did.

The immigration thing--the 'amnesty' business. That was the other issue? Are there more?

nylons73

02-03-2008, 08:02 AM

I wonder why he voted against the constitutional amendment. I doubt he supports gay marriage. I'll bet he thought that we shouldn't go changing the constitution willy-nilly. That sounds pretty conservative to me. Does he support gay marriage? Secretly? That would be pretty wild if he did.

I can only speak to what he said to the group I was gathered with when I met him, approx. one month after Sept 11th. It was in a small banquet room at a local hotel, not a big group by any means. Everyone was still pretty emotional, due to what had been going on in the past month. McCain got up to speak, and inevitably covered the events of that day. He spoke about one of the young men on Flight 93 who counter-attacked the hijackers and fought back. His name escapes me at the minute, but he was the passanger from San Francisco whom was a Rugby player. At any rate, this young man had worked for McCain on his last campaign. McCain credited the man (and the other passengers) for saving his life, as the plane was likely headed to the Capitol where McCain was working that day.

He then told us that the young man in question was gay and that it had really impacted him in looking at that community. At the request of the parents, McCain had attended the man's funeral, etc. McCain's message seemed to be one of reflection and acceptance.

Given his comments to our group that day, I wouldn't be suprised at all if he were secretly pro-gay marriage. :)

Delta

02-03-2008, 01:17 PM

I think a lot of Republicans truly are more agnostic or pro gay marriage than they let on.

That's interesting. What were these things? I heard: Voted against the constitutional amendment against gay marriage, and voted against the tax cuts. Was there anything else?McCain-Feingold (campaign finance), McCain-Kennedy (immigration), and he seems to have a distain and condescension for those to the right of him.

But here is the thing - right now Reagan's legacy is being distorted. He was able to articulate and convey conservatism in a way that changed the country, but you know what? He also raised taxes, grew the government and granted amnesty.

LyLMyssChaos

02-03-2008, 02:10 PM

That's interesting. What were these things? I heard: Voted against the constitutional amendment against gay marriage, and voted against the tax cuts. Was there anything else?

I wonder why he voted against the constitutional amendment. I doubt he supports gay marriage. I'll bet he thought that we shouldn't go changing the constitution willy-nilly. That sounds pretty conservative to me. Does he support gay marriage? Secretly? That would be pretty wild if he did.

The immigration thing--the 'amnesty' business. That was the other issue? Are there more?

Some other stances of McCain:

He entered into talks in 2001 with Daschle about changing his party affiliation
He supports embryonic stem cell research.
He supports special funding for women & minorities in business
He is against drilling for oil in ANWR
He supports preventing the President from issuing economic sanctions
He supports bans on assault weapons
He wants to close Gitmo
He has tried to block the appointment of conservative judges.

This is just a start.