A probably dumb question, with a little irony...

[HeatherFL]

First I have NO intention of starting a debate thread. It might go that way, but I am asking it doesn't. It's really a "Am I?" or "Am I not?" question.

I'm actually sort of embarrassed to ask this, and I know some of you will laugh or think, "I told you so..." but anyway, this board is full of some highly intelligent women who are much more politically in the know than I am.

I want to know: Am I pro-life or am I pro-choice? Just writing that seems like, "Wouldn't you know?" But no. I don't really know.

Bottom line, I think abortion is wrong. I won't debate it. It's my personal opinion. It is not based on religious belief, it is just my belief. I don't believe in a "right to choose" when it comes to ending what I believe to be a life. I can understand exceptions, such as in the cases of rape, regardless of what my personal choice would be in such a situation.

HOWEVER, I do not want abortion to be illegal. I do not want to see women in back-alleys with coat hangers. (I mean no humor there.) I do not want clinics to be these nightmare places that aren't sanitary.

I am 101% for birth control education in our schools. I am for the government regulating the sanitary conditions of abortion clinics just as they would any other hospital or doctor's office. This wouldn't a regulation of the women going to these places, just a regulation of the places.

So which is it? I wouldn't write that I've struggled with this, but it is a serious topic for me.

If anyone else has felt this way, please share. I really appreciate it.

And again I ask (maybe in vain), please DO NOT turn this into an ugly thread. Please.

~H.

[apoppy]

I think you are pro-choice. You recognize that your personal feelings on the matter should not impact that choices of other women.

[Irish Elf]

I would call that pro-choice, meaning you want other people to have the ability to decide for themselves. To me it isn't an either/or type thing. It isn't yes, everyone should have one OR no one should have one.

[Irish Elf]

ok, apoppy said it so much better.

[apoppy]

(Since I am not allowed to edit an old post yet, I am rewording and clarifying my first one.)


I think you are pro-choice. You recognize that you do not want your personal feelings on the matter to impact the right of other women to control their own bodies, and their own choices.

[PalmBch2002]

Heather I think you're in the same boat as me. I 100% agree with you (though I have some religion faith in with mine) but I consider myself to be pro-life HOWEVER, I also think that it shouldn't be illegal in situations such as rape. I don't think that women should just walk into a clinic and end a life just because they weren't ready or made the choice of sex without protection. There are too many other options out there such as adoption and the morning after pill. Heck, you can even bring your newborn to a firehouse no questions asked. There are just too many people out there who abuse the abortion clinics in my opinion.

[bluebunny]

You recognize that your personal feelings on the matter should not impact that choices of other women.

I didn't read your (Heather's) post and get this feeling at all. I got the feeling that you don't believe the GOVERNMENT should take away the choice.

I think you are pro-choice. I have similar beliefs as you: that abortion is wrong and that it ends a life. I, too, have struggled with the "what am I?" question. I have come to the come to the conclusion that although I am personally pro-life (meaning that I would not have an abortion), I am pro-choice politically because I do not think the government should outlaw abortions.

[PalmBch2002]

Oh I like the way bluebunny put it. Personally pro-life but politically pro-choice.

[HeatherFL]

You recognize that you do not want your personal feelings on the matter to impact the right of other women to control their own bodies, and their own choices.
See my problem is that I don't recognize this. That's where my personal conflict is. I don't feel it's their right. I feel it's an option they choose to exercise or not. I don't feel it's their body their making the choice about. I feel it's a life living in a woman's body they are choosing to end the life of. Does that make sense?

I don't mean to get into a debate about when it's a life and all that. I guess you have helped me clarify, though, because my personal opinion really has nothing to do with their choice. For me, I just can't call it a right.

Thank you, all. I don't mean to be all sappy. But really, thank you.

[HeatherFL]

I didn't read your (Heather's) post and get this feeling at all. I got the feeling that you don't believe the GOVERNMENT should take away the choice.

Yes! This is what I am thinking. I do not know the moment that it hit me, but I was listening to someone speak who said something just as you wrote it. And I was like, "I get it now." All these CC debates, all the personal debates with my friends...at some point it registered that the government can't tell a woman what to do even if I agree with my government that it's wrong. Does that make any sense?

[HeatherFL]

Ah I wish we could edit. I know the difference between their and they're. Sorry! :o

[apoppy]

See my problem is that I don't recognize this. That's where my personal conflict is. I don't feel it's their right. I feel it's an option they choose to exercise or not. I don't feel it's their body their making the choice about. I feel it's a life living in a woman's body they are choosing to end the life of. Does that make sense?

Yes, that makes perfect sense. I think I was probably just reading too many of my own beliefs into what you wrote!

Personally, I struggle with the abortion issue -- I don't think I could do it myself, but thankfully I have never had to make the decision. I think that I am also personally pro-life but politically pro-choice.

Conversely to what you wrote, I think women do have a right to control their bodies in the circumstance of pregnancy. I guess I consider our "rights" to be things that the government has some control over, while our "choices" they do not. Which is probably murky and illogical. In this particular case, I feel like the government is obligated to preserving our collective rights to make a personal choice.

Now it is my turn to ask if that makes sense. :)

[HeatherFL]

Yes, I get it!

I feel so silly, really. I am like, "AHHHH!!! I see this and I see that!"

I've been so politically, I don't know...ignorant(?) for so long. I see what you are saying about rights vs. choices. I can get that.

This has been bothering me for some time, and honestly even moreso going into the primaries. I really had been wanting to ask and knew that on CC I could get some good answers. I was so hesitant, but I'm really glad I asked.

Again, don't mean to be all sappy, but I hope you all know I really appreciate your taking the time to explain to me your own feelings and how you see things.

[ysolde]

Heather, I feel almost exactly as you do. I don't believe I would ever have an abortion (although I cannot say that for sure -- I have never been in the situation). I believe I would welcome any pregnancy of mine, whether planned or unplanned, as a gift from the Almighty, and I would make the situation, no matter how difficult, work.

All of that said, I simply do not believe that this is an issue in which the government should get involved. Women have been terminating pregnancies, one way or the other, since the beginning of recorded history. The government's involvement will not stop it, or even decrease the numbers (Brazil, where abortion is illegal, has one of the highest rates of abortion in the world). It will just make it more difficult and dangerous for women to have abortions. And I don't want to go back to the days of the back alley.

Moreover, I am wary of giving over reproductive rights to the government. A government that can forbid abortion for some women can force abortion for other women. This is particularly troubling for me, because I have a disability. The governments of several states forced women with disabilities to have abortions and be sterilized, until it became abundantly clear that, legally, a woman's right to reproduction, and the decisions appurtenant thereto, belong to her alone.

[tgr68]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I think you are pro-life.

What it sounds like you are against is government being in our private business. This could apply to anything - reproduction, religion, right to bear arms, etc. (Not that I'm saying you aren't for govt EVER stepping in, but I think you get my drift.)

I feel like I want to say more, but without going too indepth into my personal beliefs on the matter and potentially turning this into a debate (staunch pro-lifer here), I will bow out until the right words come to mind.

[meganth]

It's a tough one. For me, i would never get an abortion. But i also feel that it is not up to me to decide what another woman chooses to do to her body. And i also feel it's not up to the government to make that decision either.

So while i may be pro-life for myself, i'm pro-choice in the political sense, as it's never up to me to tell you (general you) what you can and cannot do to your body.

[Chelsea524]

Heather, I think a lot of women have the exact same feelings, I am one of them. I personally consider myself pro-choice, but I would never have an abortion, and I'm sorry to say but I do look negatively towards women that have them with so many other choices out there. The only reason I am pro-choice is because I don't think making it illegal would stop them, it would just cause women and girls to look elsewhere to get it done, a shady dirty clinic, a friend willing to help with a coat hanger, anything like that. It's going to continue to happen, so lets keep these young scared girls(and women for that matter) safe in the process.

[amwilson615]

All of that said, I simply do not believe that this is an issue in which the government should get involved. Women have been terminating pregnancies, one way or the other, since the beginning of recorded history. The government's involvement will not stop it, or even decrease the numbers (Brazil, where abortion is illegal, has one of the highest rates of abortion in the world). It will just make it more difficult and dangerous for women to have abortions. And I don't want to go back to the days of the back alley.
Moreover, I am wary of giving over reproductive rights to the government. A government that can forbid abortion for some women can force abortion for other women. This is particularly troubling for me, because I have a disability. The governments of several states forced women with disabilities to have abortions and be sterilized, until it became abundantly clear that, legally, a woman's right to reproduction, and the decisions appurtenant thereto, belong to her alone.
(all bolding mine).

I am in 100% agreement with ysolde on this.

[bug]

I would say that you are pro-choice, and your choice in the matter would be to choose life. People who are pro-choice are not anti-life, they just recognize (like what has been said earlier) that women are more capable of making the right decision for themselves than the (mostly male) government is.

[Katie1]

I don't have an answer to your question but it's really encouraging to see that I'm not the only one who has struggled with this. Heather, what you have written really sums up a lot of my feelings on the issue. I have always tended to consider myself pro-life and I know that I would never have an abortion, but it's an issue that's definitely not black and white. So many extenuating circumstances. I do not judge others that have had abortions but I feel bad that it had to happen.

So, the right answer? I don't know. Honestly there should be a third category I think.

[SpelKen]

Personally pro-life but politically pro-choice.

That's how I've always described myself.

[BrownEyedGirl]

I believe you are pro-choice.

I think it would be easier to figure out if the options were pro-choice and anti-choice rather than pro-choice or pro-life.

[NotDesperate]

Heres a dumb question, how come this (and only a few other) threads you can respond in and all the others are only read-only? TIA

[jeepgirl]

Heather - I believe 100% the same as you do on this issue. Absolutely 100%. I have felt this way for some time, years in fact. I've explained my belief to others. Some get it, some don't, some agree, most don't. But I so rarely see it spelled out as it has been in this thread. Thank you for that.

[HeatherFL]

So, the right answer? I don't know. Honestly there should be a third category I think.

I always say: Pro-phylactic. ;)


Not Desperate Katy has a post, and it's being worked on little by little. I'll get the link to it for you.

jeepgirl You're welcome, and thanks to you too for sharing.

Everyone I am going to come back in tomorrow (after some sleep!) and do proper replies. Again, I really want to thank you for your thoughts and for sharing.

~H.

[Scooter]

Heather, it does sound like you are pro-choice, because you don't want the government to make the final call about such a private issue. FWIW, I think a lot of pro-choicers feel the same way you do. Pro-choice doesn't mean pro-abortion, it just means that you believe the government shouldn't take that choice away from people.

And this is kind of random, but I thought I'd say that I remember having a discussion with you years ago (here? the old boards? don't remember) and amazingly enough on an abortion thread I felt like we got to a point where we really tried to understand each other, and I was surprised at the time (being staunchly pro-choice, myself) how much we agreed on about the problems with the laws as they are. So pro-choice also doesn't mean that you agree with the current laws; in fact you may want them to be a little different or restrictive or whatever. But at the basis is that belief that it is not for the government to make our choices for us.


NotDesperate, it's not that certain threads are open, it's that certain forums are open. They're opening up again bit by bit, but they'll be back up again soon. You can always pm a mod or admin with any questions like that, too! :) Katy mentioned it in her welcome message, which is the announcement posted at the top of every forum, if you want to read it for yourself.

[Delta]

I feel the same way you do about the issue but I still feel more aligned with the pro-life side. For the most part I do judge women who've had abortions on that particular aspect of their lives. I don't support planned parenthood (and yes I know they do much more than perform abortions) and I support prolife shelters and women's health clinics. I think Roe v. Wade needs to be overturned because it is bad 'law'. IMO these things are all things affiliated with the prochoice side. The only thing I agree with prochoicers on is not wanting to make abortion illegal.

[Annette]

I feel the same way you do, Heather.
If abortions are ever banned in this country, I hope they leave an exception for the life & health of the mother.

Here's an an article after Nicaragua instituted their all abortion ban. Since there's no life exception, women have died because doctors are afraid to do anything regarding ectopic and pre-term labor cases.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/08/30/nicara16776.htm

[HeatherFL]

Not Desperate Here is the link for you: Welcome Back (http://www.constantchatter.com/forum/announcement.php?f=163).

ysolde I'm about to sound like a scene from The Brady Bunch, but I've never looked at it that way. Your post made me think of all the forced abortions in China. You're right. And, again, I am embarrassed to write this but I had no idea:
The governments of several states forced women with disabilities to have abortions and be sterilized, until it became abundantly clear that, legally, a woman's right to reproduction, and the decisions appurtenant thereto, belong to her alone.
Also, this sentence you wrote here: Moreover, I am wary of giving over reproductive rights to the government. For some reason, I don't know why, I finally understand this. I feel like I'm seeing a much bigger picture. Thank you for your insight, so much.

tgr68 You're right. When it comes to personal decisions, I am learning that I don't want the government making them for us. Please know that despite my own beliefs, from a Biblical perspective, I do understand what the Bible says about life, and God knowing us from the womb. I also respect, very much, that importance to you-and to others. Here is where you and I might have a difference of opinion; I'm not sure how you feel on this. As I get older, I get scared as I see religion being used to govern this nation. For instance, nowhere but the Bible does it indicate that homosexuality is wrong. Well that is the Bible. To me, we have separation of church and state and that is very important to me. Yet the President wanted to amend our Constitution based on his interpretation of what the Bible says. That scares me- A LOT. So I began to think, the only written place it could be interpreted that voluntary abortion is immoral is in the Bible. Even though I base my decision (on my opinion of) science, abortion is a "scientific" procedure. Science doesn't say it's wrong. That's just my personal take on it. So I am uncomfortable, at this point, with the government telling a woman that abortion is wrong when really the Bible is the only place one could draw that conclusion from. I want the rights of anyone with faith to be protected. I want them to be able to practice as they choose. But I am realizing now, that because we live in a nation with separation of church and state, and although they are the larger population-they shouldn't be the only ones with a choice. I hope that makes sense, and please know I fully respect your beliefs, N. In no way do I mean any disrespect, and I hope I've explained myself okay there.

meganth Thank you for explaining how you feel. Honestly :o, I was wondering if I was the only one who feels that way.

Chelsea524 You are right. It wouldn’t stop them. And that has been something else I’ve really been considering. It will still happen, so it should be as safe as possible.

amwilson615 Yeah, she is really smart. ;)

bug From your lips to my brain. That is exactly how I am thinking lately.

Katie1 You’re right. Sometimes there is just no right answer. I always kind of kid about prophylactics, because if we (as a nation) weren’t so uptight about birth control education maybe this wouldn’t be such a big problem.

Spelken Thank you for adding!

BrownEyedGirl You know I used to hate that term “anti-choice.” But now I see what you mean. At the end of the day, it really is “anti” if you don’t want the woman to make the decision for herself. I know that seems so simple. I’m not sure why it took me so long to get that.

jeepgirl I really had no idea there were a lot of others who feel as I do. I’m glad I started the thread because I’ve never really been open to learning about it until now, and I’ve gotten a lot of insight I wouldn’t have thought about previously.

Scooter I used to not understand that statement-about pro-choice not being pro-abortion. I get that now. And yes! I too remember that conversation, and thinking to myself that it was odd how much I agreed with so much of what you wrote. I still do think there are a lot of problems with the ways the laws are, but again you are right- But at the basis is that belief that it is not for the government to make our choices for us. That is also exactly how I feel!

Delta I understand where you are coming from. I have an acquaintance that is very careless about birth control, and says she would just get an abortion if she had to. I won’t get into the conversations I’ve had with her, but I won’t lie and say if she did that I wouldn’t pass some judgment. This is another instance where my ignorance shows. I know about Roe vs. Wade, but I don’t know the details. I’d be interested to know why you think it’s a bad law, if you don’t mind sharing.


Thank you all, again.

H.

[HeatherFL]

Annette We x-posted. Thank you for the article. You bring up another good point. One problem I have had is when it really is an endgangerment to the life of the mother. But when it comes to tubals and things like that it is awful that doctor would be so afraid to intervene. I'm going to read that article. Thank you.

[HeatherFL]

I really wish we could edit! Sorry for all the typos.

[phoenics]

Yes! This is what I am thinking. I do not know the moment that it hit me, but I was listening to someone speak who said something just as you wrote it. And I was like, "I get it now." All these CC debates, all the personal debates with my friends...at some point it registered that the government can't tell a woman what to do even if I agree with my government that it's wrong. Does that make any sense?

I'm sort of exactly where you are. I believe abortion is wrong, but taking away abortion as an option doesn't sit perfectly well with me either. I guess I'm confused.

[LIZNKEITH]

I feel exactly the same way on the abortion isse. Personally I am pro-life (would only have an abortion under extreme circumstances like rape or life-threatening pregnancy) and if any one I knew came to me for counsel, I would lay out all of their options. Politically though, I am pro-choice. I believe government should stop where the skin starts. I think giving the government permission to make medical decisions for us is a slippery slope we don't want to head down.

[kindermom]

Heather - I tell people I am anti-abortion but pro-choice. I understand the difficulty in explaining your pov but I think you did it well in your first post. I think the confusion people have over your/our view was brought to life when John Kerry was running for president. I always understood his view on this issue because it was my own.