Should the NFL ban Michael Vick?

[lawyerlee]

Do you think the NFL should impose a lifetime ban on Michael Vick? Discussion is welcome, but I'm really just curious about the poll results.

[bookworm]

I said maybe. I'm fine with them banning him, but I'm uncomfortable that players involved in crimes against people have not been similarly punished.

[jennylou]

Do they ban people involved in crimes? If so, then yes. If they don't, then unless they are going to start a precident, no.

[villanelle75]

Pacman Jones was banned for life, I believe, though i can't remember what his infraction/crime was. Assault?

[msnicolea]

I don't think PacMan was banned for life. The NFL needs to establish a policy that is consistently and fairly applied. There are multiple felons still playing professional sports.

[Sophia]

I think he should be banned, but I don't think it would be fair if he was banned and others haven't been.

[villanelle75]

I looked it up Pacman was only banned for one season, though what he did was, IMO, far less bad than the torture of animals. The worst of his 6 arrests was for coercion, related to the assault of a stripper. Other highlight include obstructing an officer and public intoxication.

As to whether other players have been banned for life, no other player has been charged with and has plead to the things he did, so there really isn't anything to compare it to. The NFL conduct code does allow for lifetime suspension for gambling. I don't know the details, but from what I read, the charges he plead to do fall under the NFL's forbidden gambling clause, so while there isn't a precedent (since no one else has been charged with the same crimes), there is a provision in the NFL rules.

[nylons73]

I looked it up Pacman was only banned for one season, though what he did was, IMO, far less bad than the torture of animals. The worst of his 6 arrests was for coercion, related to the assault of a stripper. Other highlight include obstructing an officer and public intoxication.

As to whether other players have been banned for life, no other player has been charged with and has plead to the things he did, so there really isn't anything to compare it to. The NFL conduct code does allow for lifetime suspension for gambling. I don't know the details, but from what I read, the charges he plead to do fall under the NFL's forbidden gambling clause, so while there isn't a precedent (since no one else has been charged with the same crimes), there is a provision in the NFL rules.

This is going to prove that I listen to waayyyy too much ESPN radio! heh heh

Pacman (like Villanelle mentioned) has only been banned for this season. Actually it's not even the whole season. He has a chance to come back in early November (it's at the commissioner's discretion.)

The worst of Pacman's offenses actually came recently. Pacman is currently a 'person of interest' due to his recent involvement in a shooting incident at a Las Vegas strip club last February. He apparently got up on stage (when the club personnel tried to make him leave) and threatened to kill the management in the club for trying to get him to leave. He was also allegedly "making it rain" which refers to throwing dollar bills in the air to get the strippers' attention. The strippers began picking up the money that Pacman was throwing into the air. When Pacman saw this, he apparently became enraged, grabbed a stripper, and slammed her head into the ground.

At any rate, after the club actually got Pacman to leave, he and his entourage were allegedly involved in a shooting which left one of the bouncers paralyzed from the waist down. A nurse who was also shot at the scene is suing Pacman b/c as a result of being shot herself, she spent 3 weeks in the hospital. The police don't have any evidence that Pacman actually shot these people, but most believe that he at least incited the 'riot like atmosphere' that precipitated the shootings.

In addition to this recent incident, Pacman Jones has been either arrested or has been a 'person of interest' in police cases over 16 times!

The coup de gras came when Pacman met with the commissioner of the NFL (Roger Goodell) and told him that he would turn his life around. (After admitting during the meeting that just the night before he had visited a NYC strip club to "get something to eat." Um yeah, like there aren't any other restaurants in NYC. Sigh.) Then, less than 2 weeks after his meeting with the commissioner, Pacman was back in a strip-club, starting trouble. :rolleyes:

Vick probably won't be banned for life for dogfighting (although being a dog lover I think he should be) BUT word on the street is that the Goodell is MUCHO upset that Vick looked him in the face, not too long ago, and told him that he (Vick) had no idea what was going on at this Virginia home and that he wasn't involved in dogfighting. The NFL is conducting it's own investigation of the matter and word is that all signs point to Vick being a major player in all of this. The commissioner COULD ban Vick for life for gambling and just might because he has said that he is so so so mad about Vick's direct dishonesty.

Whew! If you read all of that, I apologize! ;)

[ysolde]

Yes. He committed a violent crime, the facts of which are particularly heinous. I think crimes such as assaulting women or children, torture (of people or animals), rape, and murder all warrant a lifetime ban from professional sports.

[fuzzy]

I said yes for the following reasons:

1) The nature of the crime (particularly henious);
2) The fact that this wasn't a in-the-heat-of-the-moment act -- this was a coordinated, planned illegal/underground ring;
3) It involved gambling;
4) He lied to both the Falcons management and to the comissioner.

[lawyerlee]

I'm really torn about this. I think what he did was truly horrible and wrong, no question. But I guess I'm not prepared to say that someone should be closed out of his or her chosen profession for life for committing even these crimes. Even in my profession of the law you would have a chance to ask to be readmitted and prove that you've changed. And this is a game! But I can totally understand why so many people don't think he should have another chance. His actions are absollutely reprehensible and the lies certainly don't help his cause.

[Dally]

ITA:
Yes. He committed a violent crime, the facts of which are particularly heinous. I think crimes such as assaulting women or children, torture (of people or animals), rape, and murder all warrant a lifetime ban from professional sports.

I think professional sports is different from a lot of other professions. It's built around entertainment, after all. People look up to these players, so the players should be held to a high standard.

[fuzzy]

Uh, I was just reading this (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20417707/from/RS.2/) article on msnbc.com and thought this was interesting:

COLUMBIA, S.C. - Michael Vick filed his plea agreement in federal court Friday admitting to conspiracy in a dogfighting ring and helping kill pit bulls. He denied ever betting on the fights, or explicitly killing dogs, only bankrolling the operation.


Obviously, he's trying to get around the gambling part of the NFL's personal conduct policy.

[Kate&Joey]

Uh, I was just reading this (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20417707/from/RS.2/) article on msnbc.com and thought this was interesting:



Obviously, he's trying to get around the gambling part of the NFL's personal conduct policy.

That was my first thought, too, fuzzy.

[nylons73]

Oh yeah. That plea agreement was a lawyer's wonder of 'fine' language. He admits to doing just about everything but a. taking side bets on the 'fights' and b. killing dogs. :rolleyes:

What will be interesting is that if the judge believes that Michael Vick isn't telling the whole truth in the plea agreement. plea agreement, he can reject it, or sentence Michael to as much as 5 years! (I hope he gets all of it.)

[jrdhbunny]

I've gone back and forth on the statement and I think you could definitely read into it that he admits to having a hand in killing the dogs.
According to the statement, Vick also was involved with the others in killing six to eight dogs that did not perform well in testing sessions last April. The dogs were executed by drowning or hanging.
“Vick agrees and stipulates that these dogs all died as a result of the collective efforts� of Vick, Phillips and Peace, the statement said.
But it's all so carefully worded that it could be interpreted differently, i.e. by bankrolling the operation, Vick was indirectly involved in the executions.

[maxandmolly]

But I guess I'm not prepared to say that someone should be closed out of his or her chosen profession for life for committing even these crimes. Even in my profession of the law you would have a chance to ask to be readmitted and prove that you've changed.
I understand where you're coming from, but being a lawyer is different. Lawyers (generally) don't make millions of dollars per year. Most children do not look up to lawyers as role models, as heroes. With the larger paycheck, comes larger responsibilities. I think he should absolutely be banned for life. What would that say to children, if after engaging in such horrific behavior, he was allowed to return?
FWIW, I think this should apply to any violent crime. Michael Pittman got arrested for DV twice one summer, he came back to work as though nothing happened, he was just suspended for a couple (maybe more) games. I had a problem with that the same as I would have a problem with Vick's return.

[msnicolea]

It's a tough one, lawyerlee. I mean, if people are convicted of a crime and serve their time, don't they have the right to make a living? Should what he does for a living make a difference? Is it fair that he be held to a higher standard than a shoe salesman or a conductor? The fact that he might be considered a role model for children or that he makes an as-load of $ shouldn't really have bearing, in my opinion.

And since when was the NFL a purveyor of good citizenship?!?!?!

sigh--I just don't know.

[jrdhbunny]

And since when was the NFL a purveyor of good citizenship?!?!?!
There are a lot of NFL players, coaches and administrators that use their money and fame to do a lot of good in this world. For every Michael Vick, there is a Peyton (and Eli) Manning, who personally went to New Orleans to help with the recovery efforts there after Katrina (and they're certainly not the only ones). For every Lawrence Phillips, there is a Warrick Dunn, whose charity work builds and furnishes homes for single mothers. For every Pacman Jones, there is an Amani Toomer, who helps build after-school recreational facilities to keep young people off the streets. And the NFL as an organization is a HUGE sponsor of the United Way, among other charitable organizations.

It's really disheartening for me to see the bad apples in this sport overshadow the many, many positive contributions that those in the NFL make. I'm hope that Goodell continues to come down hard on the law-breakers.

[lawyerlee]

It's a tough one, lawyerlee. I mean, if people are convicted of a crime and serve their time, don't they have the right to make a living? Should what he does for a living make a difference? Is it fair that he be held to a higher standard than a shoe salesman or a conductor? The fact that he might be considered a role model for children or that he makes an as-load of $ shouldn't really have bearing, in my opinion.

And since when was the NFL a purveyor of good citizenship?!?!?!

sigh--I just don't know.
These are exactly the thoughts I have been having. If anything, I believe the real problem is with the way we hold up athletes and movie stars as gods.

He certainly deserves to be punished, but I have a problem with the way we cut off the chance for true rehabilitation when someone screws up. So many states have severe laws that keep felons from, say, cutting hair, yet they would be allowed the option of returning to other professions that typically involve more white collar types. There seems to me to be some inherent bias in the way we currently do things, and this situation seems like an example of that to me.

Not that I am all that sympathetic to Michael Vick, mind you. He has done something truly horrible. I just think this is an illustration of the way our society holds different types of people to very different standards.

[msnicolea]

I work for United Way so I know all about about the good that many NFL-ers do--that wasn't my point. I also know that just because someone gives $ to chairty, that doesn't make him an upstanding citizen. In fact, I am fairly cetain Michael Vick has donated large sums of money to his alma mater and other charities. My point is that in the not-so-distant past, the NFL has allowed ex-felons to return to the game, has turned a blind eye to various crimes, and now seems to be making an example out of Vick.

What Michael Vick did is awful and he deserves to be punished--but I don't think he forfeits his right to earn a living.

[maxandmolly]

I work for United Way so I know all about about the good that many NFL-ers do--that wasn't my point. I also know that just because someone gives $ to chairty, that doesn't make him an upstanding citizen. In fact, I am fairly cetain Michael Vick has donated large sums of money to his alma mater and other charities. My point is that in the not-so-distant past, the NFL has allowed ex-felons to return to the game, has turned a blind eye to various crimes, and now seems to be making an example out of Vick.

What Michael Vick did is awful and he deserves to be punished--but I don't think he forfeits his right to earn a living.
Then let him go play in the CFL. It's not like he'll be destitute if he never plays football again.
Is he making an example out of Vick? Or is Vick just the first one to get caught doing something so horrid? Especially since the new commissioner was installed. I mean, get DUIs, beat your wife, those crimes, are, well, sort of accepted in our society. Meaning, most people wouldn't lose their job as a lawyer, accountant, janitor, bus driver, etc, if they slap their wife/husband/SO or get a little too boozed up one night (not that either of those things are ever ok). But Vick, over a long period of time, systematically funded and participated in such utterly cruel behavior that there's just no explaining it away. If that doesn't earn being made an example of, I'm not sure what would. A DUI, a fight that gets out of control, those in some respects are seen as things that could happen to anyone-plenty of people have gotten behind the wheel when they shouldn't, or had the urge to hit someone during a nasty fight. But what Vick did took intent, took planning, took effort to carry out, and it was cruel and awful simply for the purpose of being cruel-and nothing can change that.

[jrdhbunny]

Vick isn't the only one that the NFL has treated harshly for committing a crime. And there has been no decision yet about whether Vick will be given a lifetime ban- he may be allowed to play again.

The NFL has always held its players accountable - it's rare that they don't levy a fine or suspension when a player commits a crime or abuses a substance. But it's also true that the NFL has been willing to give them a second (and sometimes third) chance. But Goodell has been taking a harder line than previous commissioners on all criminal behavior and I think that's a really good thing.

maxandmolly- ITA with your post.

[nylons73]

I still can't over the fact that Leonard Little (he plays for the St. Louis Rams) KILLED someone while driving drunk, and went to jail. Got out, resumed his career and got arrested for DUI AGAIN! He is still in the league. :mad:

I think if you are convicted of killing anyone, dog, person, kitty cat, etc. you should be banned for life. We don't need Any Given Sunday come to life. There are plenty of GREAT NFL players including Amani Toomer (whom I knew in college) that should get more attention for how they live their lives.

[jrdhbunny]

I still can't over the fact that Leonard Little (he plays for the St. Louis Rams) KILLED someone while driving drunk, and went to jail. Got out, resumed his career and got arrested for DUI AGAIN! He is still in the league.
I know- it's awful. I think the individual teams and owners need to step up and say, "you know, maybe the NFL won't ban them, but we certainly won't have them on our team." I remember being furious when the Rams drafted Lawrence Phillips even though he had a documented history of domestic violence- and they have a female owner!

I am a very very very passionate fan of the NFL and will defend a lot of what they do (or don't do), but one of the things that has always chapped my hide has been the willingness of some teams/owners/coaches to overlook serious character flaws because a player has athletic talent. There are too many good players out there who lead normal, crime-free lives to waste money on those that will just bring the team headaches in the end.

[Dally]

jrdhbunny, I completely agree with you.

I don't think banning Vick from the NFL means he can't earn a living. There are plenty of other jobs out there. Remember when skating banned Tonya Harding? She's managed to earn a living despite that.

[thelittlebabu]

I voted maybe, only because it seemed like the best fit for what I propose...

The NFL can de facto ban Vick for life by suspending him so long that by the time he's eligible to play, no team will want him. Obviously suspending him until age 40 will draw the ire of the players union, but what about 35? Who wants a 35yr old Vick on their team? I doubt even the players union truly cares about Vick at this point, but as a union it is put in an uncomfortable position of fighting on his behalf. Avoiding a lifetime ban allows the union to save face, but suspending him long enough where he has no career left lets the league save face.

[artist]

I voted yes, I think he should be banned for life. I also think players should be banned for life from professional sports if they kill or assault or abuse another human being.

I rarely if ever watch football. But if I did watch football, I'd be inclined to not want to watch or attend any games that he was playing in if he ends up being able to play again.

I was discussing this with a friend recently. I brought up the point that if either of US went to jail for a few days or a week, WE would very likely get fired from a job just for missing work in the first place! It's pretty unlikely that IF either of us had to miss a significant amount of work due to legal reasons (ie: having to serve time in jail/prison), that we would get hired back for the job we had BEFORE serving time. Why should an NFL player get special treatment when the rest of the world doesn't?

My friend then brought up Martha Stewart, to which of course I replied, "Martha did NOT tortue or kill dogs! She just embezzled a lot of money, which is not at all as bad as what Vick did!"