Save the planet = Buy more gadgets?

[Sarah Smyth]

This post was inspired by 3 things.

I read a article in Martha Stewart's Magazine "Living" that talked about ways to cut back the electric bill every month, then I just finished watching "I Want That" on the fine Living Channel. Talk about a clash of ideas.

Martha is all about recycling, saving energy, ect while I Want That is all about expensive gadgets and gizmos that nobody really needs and more often than not are anything but enviromentally friendly. Seriously, who needs 10 plus shower heads?

If I didn't have a bathroom and kitchen that needed remodling, there are two gadgets I would invest in. The first would be a tankless hot water heater. They save space, don't rust and leak and only heat water on demand versus a tank that is always having to be kept warm so that hot water is there when there is a demand for it.

The second thing I would do is tell the electric company to bite me and have the house run solely on solar power. The technology has improved by leaps and bounds since it first came out and not having a electric bill would put roughly $2400.00 back into the household budget yearly. I'm basing that on the current average, but really it would be more than that as like everybody else's electric bill, mine goes up during the summer from the AC's even though I never set them below 77 degrees. I use them more to keep humidity at bay than keeping the house cold.

My SO and I got into a discussion about Hybrid cars yesterday as we saw one while we were out and about. There was a article in the Herald last week that discussed how "enviromentally friendly" these cars really are not.

The batteries for those cars are made in Canada. There is a 10 mile radius surrounding the plant that has no vegetation because the chemicals in the batteries for these cars are highly toxic. To make things worse, the owners of these vehicles can look forward to spending $4,000.00 every 3-4 years for a new battery and they are going to have a hard time disposing the old ones as nobody wants to deal with them.

Oddly enough, the new H2 that is coming out gets better gas milage than the so-called enviromentally friendly cars that are on the market today. Like with everything in life, there is a catch though. The new H2 may get better gas mileage, but if you live in a state that says you have to pay more on your car insurance because you simply own a SUV, the money saved on gas will go right back into somebody else's pocket and probably alittle more.

While I don't consider myself to be a full fledged tree hugger, I do my best to save money whenever I can, avoid using toxic chemicals both inside the the house and out, and I don't cut down trees on my property just because they dump their leaves in fall, unlike my neighbor.

I find it interesting how there has been so much talk about emissions, global warming and all of that, but yet we live in a society that doesn't really seem to follow through with what it preaches. Instead of lowering energy bills, people simply buy more stuff that needs to be plugged in, ect...

What's your take on all of this?

[Sarah]

It does bother me that so many people I know who are really focused on ecology and being "green" seem to be incredibly consumerist. They all point fingers and act very holier than (greener than?) thou, but their choices seem pretty superficial. We live pretty frugally and simply, mostly out of necessity, but also for reasons of not wanting to generate lots of waste. For example, we drive a car with horrible gas mileage, but I walk almost everywhere and barely ever drive. We only have one car, which is over ten years old, and won't buy another until this one can't be fixed. We live in a city. We have flown once in the last 8 years. Etc. I think lifestyle choices add up a lot more than adding some solar panels to your 3000 square foot house, or planting trees in front of your house in a subdivision.

Eta- I've often wondered how wise it is to trade in/sell a perfectly good car in order to buy a more efficent hybrid. That seems sort of wasteful of resources to me.

[JamBray]

The batteries for those cars are made in Canada. There is a 10 mile radius surrounding the plant that has no vegetation because the chemicals in the batteries for these cars are highly toxic. To make things worse, the owners of these vehicles can look forward to spending $4,000.00 every 3-4 years for a new battery and they are going to have a hard time disposing the old ones as nobody wants to deal with them.

I'm not sure about the manufacturing or cost of the batteries, but I did find this regarding the disposal:
Toyota and Honda place decals with a toll-free number on their hybrid battery packs. Toyota offers a $200 bounty to ensure that every battery comes back to the company. In a press release, Toyota states, "Every part of the battery, from the precious metals to the plastic, plates, steel case and the wiring, is recycled." Honda arranges for the collection of the battery and transfers it to a preferred recycler to follow their prescribed process: disassembling and sorting the materials; shredding the plastic material; recovering and processing the metal; and neutralizing the alkaline material before sending it to a landfill.

If you're interested, more can be found here (http://www.hybridcars.com/environment-stories/hybrid-battery-toxicity.html).

[Niobe]

Toyota and Honda both have 10 year warranties on their batteries. Owners will not be buying new batteries in 3-4 years.

What "new H2" are you talking about that gets better gas mileage? Not the 2008, which gets an estimated (being such a large truck, it isn't subject to real gas mileage testing) 14-16 MPG. That's a FAR cry from the 50 mpg I averaged driving a Prius around the city. 14 mpg is worse then I got in my 1990 V8 Ford Taurus.

I found what I assume is the news story about the pollution in Sudbury, Ontario. The Inco nickel plant, correct? Yeah, that story is being rapidly debunked. Google Inco nickel plant, Toyota plant Sudbury, any combo of things. The pollution occurred 30 years ago - a bit before the Prius's time.

[Rosebud]

The discussion about what we can do to aid the environment is an ongoing one. Right now there is a lot of concern, and the beginnings of some action, but obviously there will need to be more changes made- on a personal level and on a government level- to really make progress. It does seem at times like there's a lot of talk and no action, but I'm hopeful that this is the beginning of a larger movement in the USA to be environmentally friendly.

I agree with the fact that we need to buy less and consume less to be more environmentally friendly. We live in a very consumer-oriented society, so resisting the urge to buy, buy, buy is something we'll all have to work on.

I totally disagree with the assertion that the H2 is as environmentally friendly as a hybrid. The 2008 H2 will get about 14-16 mpg, which is ridiculous and outragous in this day and age. While the hybrid mpgs were a bit overstated at first (and vary quite a lot depending on whether you're doing city or highway driving), most users report getting mpg somewhere in the 40s- a heck of a lot better than a H2 or other large vehicle. There are also reports (http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=109981) that the 2009 Prius will rapidly improve on its mpg, perhaps up to around 100!

There have been several threads on CC about what we're doing to be environmentally friendly, and I think most of us are genuinely interested and want to make a difference. It's just about following through and really making that commitment.

[artist]

The second thing I would do is tell the electric company to bite me and have the house run solely on solar power. The technology has improved by leaps and bounds since it first came out and not having a electric bill would put roughly $2400.00 back into the household budget yearly. I'm basing that on the current average, but really it would be more than that as like everybody else's electric bill, mine goes up during the summer from the AC's even though I never set them below 77 degrees. I use them more to keep humidity at bay than keeping the house cold.


I wish I could do that! I imagine it is really expensive to convert your house to solar power, but once it was done, that would be great!

[AHammer]

I find it interesting how there has been so much talk about emissions, global warming and all of that, but yet we live in a society that doesn't really seem to follow through with what it preaches. Instead of lowering energy bills, people simply buy more stuff that needs to be plugged in, ect...

What's your take on all of this?

People who get obsessed with buying stuff in order to help the environment should remember the three R's -- reduce, reuse, recycle. They're all free!

[artist]

People who get obsessed with buying stuff in order to help the environment should remember the three R's -- reduce, reuse, recycle. They're all free!

This is true. I took her initial comment to imply not so much that people are buying environmentally friendly products, but buying electronic gadgets in general. It does seem that people always want to have the latest toys, the latest phone, bluetooth, iPod, camera, t.v., thing to record your t.v. shows with, blah blah blah, etc. NONE of those things have ANYTHING to do with the environment. I am looking at the ad on the margin of this page for example and notice a company trying to market cell phones for kids. I remember life before cell phones. I recall knowing maybe ONE person who had one and of course it was huge and the plan probably cost a fortune! I remember hardly anyone being able to afford a big bulky VHS video camera. Now I get together with friends who want to sit down and show me some random video clip of the cat acting cute and the video was recorded with a cell phone video camera! The people I know who have these types of gadgets are by no means rich. If anything they are financially struggling! It makes me feel pretty old school with my cell phone that only makes and receives calls! Oh wait, maybe there is a game on there, but who plays games on their cell phones?

Sometimes I get nostalgic and miss the good old days of rotary telephones with a nice old fashioned ring, old record players, and the sound of mom's typewriter. A bit of a tangent from the discussion of environmentalism I suppose, but when I think about our excessive consumerism and love of gadgets, I think back to those times. Then again, my parents can think back to a time before Howdy Doody was on t.v. They recall sitting in front of a big old radio and listening to a story. They recall running off to play for hours without parents watching, jumping into lakes, climbing trees, riding bikes, and not worrying about being abducted. I am definitely happy to be my age in 2007, but I do sometimes think the older generations had some aspects of childhood that children now are out of touch with. I am thinking mostly of the ability to play and be entertained without the aid of some expensive gadget, toy, game, etc. When I buy a gift for a child, I tend to choose items like books or art supplies as opposed to video games or movies or other gadget type things.

[Sarah Smyth]

This is true. I took her initial comment to imply not so much that people are buying environmentally friendly products, but buying electronic gadgets in general. It does seem that people always want to have the latest toys, the latest phone, bluetooth, iPod, camera, t.v., thing to record your t.v. shows with, blah blah blah, etc. NONE of those things have ANYTHING to do with the environment. I am looking at the ad on the margin of this page for example and notice a company trying to market cell phones for kids. I remember life before cell phones. I recall knowing maybe ONE person who had one and of course it was huge and the plan probably cost a fortune! I remember hardly anyone being able to afford a big bulky VHS video camera. Now I get together with friends who want to sit down and show me some random video clip of the cat acting cute and the video was recorded with a cell phone video camera! The people I know who have these types of gadgets are by no means rich. If anything they are financially struggling! It makes me feel pretty old school with my cell phone that only makes and receives calls! Oh wait, maybe there is a game on there, but who plays games on their cell phones?

Sometimes I get nostalgic and miss the good old days of rotary telephones with a nice old fashioned ring, old record players, and the sound of mom's typewriter. A bit of a tangent from the discussion of environmentalism I suppose, but when I think about our excessive consumerism and love of gadgets, I think back to those times. Then again, my parents can think back to a time before Howdy Doody was on t.v. They recall sitting in front of a big old radio and listening to a story. They recall running off to play for hours without parents watching, jumping into lakes, climbing trees, riding bikes, and not worrying about being abducted. I am definitely happy to be my age in 2007, but I do sometimes think the older generations had some aspects of childhood that children now are out of touch with. I am thinking mostly of the ability to play and be entertained without the aid of some expensive gadget, toy, game, etc. When I buy a gift for a child, I tend to choose items like books or art supplies as opposed to video games or movies or other gadget type things.

It all depends on how you look at things.

All the IPods and other toys use electricity. Where does electricity come from? Power plants. Some of them burn coal while others use nuclear energy. Blech! I live less than 20 minutes from a nuclear power plant and it's a scary place. It never runs at 100 percent because it hasn't been maintained properly in the many, mnay years it's been there. While I don't usually believe stories regarding 3 eyed fish and such, I have no doubt in my mind that they exist there.

I mentioned hybrid cars because to me, they are a gadget. People can't say enough good things about them. After doing a Google search, none of the car dealerships, car reviewers and other sites such as Green Peace ever mention the nickel issue that has already been discussed. If Green Peace talks about it, I missed it. Obviously car dealerships are not going to slit their own throats by telling people "Oh yeah, by the way, EMT's are going to have a problem removing you from your vehicle if you get into a serious accident because your car can poosibly electrocute them!" which I found on another site.

While I was poking around, I also found a article about Sudbury Ontario. At the bottom of the page it does state that the area has been cleaned up, but it still wasn't pretty http://www.bookrags.com/Greater_Sudbury,_Ontario There is another site which I don't have the link to that discusses the on going testing of the soil in Sudbury which leaves me to wondering if everything is all "better" like other sites claim. And since I'm on this issue, I found the vanishing tax credit for these cars interesting as well. http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2007/03/hybrid_cars_and.html This leaves me wondering if it cured people of the smug factor?

Now take a look at what goes into making the everyday gadget. Most of the stuff found on any local store shelve is made in China or some other place. Trying to find stuff that is made in the States is rare. It does happen, but people like to buy imports because they are usually cheaper. Unless you own a museum and are into collecting artifacts that are thousands of years old, most of the stuff that is imported are cheap pieces of crap. Harley Davidson prides itself in being a American made motorcycle, but even their bikes are loaded with parts that are made from China.

How do things from China get here? They don't just levitate here by themselves. The parts or complete gadget has to be packed on a boat or a plane.

If you follow recalls at all, recently there was a big recall on Sesame Street figurines that were being sold by the thousands, if not more because they were covered in lead paint. That lead paint came from China. Lead paint is illegal in this country because it has shown to cause brain damage in children, but yet it's imported and put on childrens toys. Go figure! Money is being spent to ship the stuff here, and it doesn't come with a label that says "Harmful to children if played with!"

So while from the casual glance things like VHS tapes and all the other stuff that people like to buy looks like it wouldn't be a big deal in terms of the encviroment, one has to think about where that stuff comes from and what would be needed to make that "non-important" stuff.

Building a house seems innocent enough, except for the wood part. There are houses made from brick and or stone, but around here atleast, they are a rare find. The materials that go into a house these days are getting better. I watched a show the other day on composite counter tops. One was made from shredded money and is being marketed as "Counterfeit" but that isn't the trend. The trend is to use granite which I found out the other day is suspectible to mold and mildew growth. However, more and more people are going to salvage yards and buying old barn boards or purchasing bamboo for wood flooring instead of using oak or pine. Bamboo grows like weeds and takes less than half the time to replace unlike oak that takes many years. This is good!

Everybody including the news guy wants a cleaner enviroment, but they are not willing to go without their smug cars and numerous other things to get it.

Here in MA we've been battling it out with people that shouldn't be in politics over windmill farms. I think it's a really cool idea, but the thing that has kept those windmill farms from becoming a reality is bogus politics and whining about how the windmills will ruin the view for people that are out on their boats. :roll: If that doesn't have SMUG written all over it, I don't know what does. Some of these whiners are also self proclaimed full fledged tree huggers which is interesting in and of itself.

These same people cannot get homeowners insurance because of hurricanes. The trends of hurricanes, especially in 2005 are being blamed on global warming. So these people build multi-million dollar homes with the grandest ocean views, only to have it unisurable because of where it's located. I won't get into how a majority of these homes dump their raw sewage into the ocean... *sigh*

Such a tangled web people weave for themselves. Sounds to me like the only trees they are hugging are banana trees to go along with their monkey suits that they put on everyday and they are not alone. They have way too much company...

[jnettie]

People who get obsessed with buying stuff in order to help the environment should remember the three R's -- reduce, reuse, recycle. They're all free!

I was going to say this myself. I was raised by an environmentalist, so I've been doing the "three r's" before most people in the mainstream were.

Some of this you are getting a little confused, but I would agree that at times "environmentally friendly" items are being overly pushed, but we are a very consumer driven society. IMO, it's how you approach it.

For example, CFLs are better than traditional bulbs. But I didn't go out and buy CFLs and then just toss all my old bulbs, working or not. I'm waiting until the old ones burn out to replace them. Also, I'm not trashing my current car just to get a hybrid. I'll buy a hybrid to replace my car when I need a new car. And, I'm not running out and buying a bunch of fancy bags for grocery shopping just so I don't use plastic bags, I use one of the many tote bags I already own.

I think what you are ranting about is what people do who are only being environmental on the outside as a show instead of really believing it's the right thing to do.

As for the batteries - there is pollution for any factory. My question is is the pollution from the battery factory worse than the pollution for the oil industry? Is is not better than the alternative?

[artist]

I mentioned hybrid cars because to me, they are a gadget. People can't say enough good things about them. After doing a Google search, none of the car dealerships, car reviewers and other sites such as Green Peace ever mention the nickel issue that has already been discussed. If Green Peace talks about it, I missed it. Obviously car dealerships are not going to slit their own throats by telling people "Oh yeah, by the way, EMT's are going to have a problem removing you from your vehicle if you get into a serious accident because your car can poosibly electrocute them!" which I found on another site.

Yikes!


Now take a look at what goes into making the everyday gadget. Most of the stuff found on any local store shelve is made in China or some other place. Trying to find stuff that is made in the States is rare. It does happen, but people like to buy imports because they are usually cheaper. Unless you own a museum and are into collecting artifacts that are thousands of years old, most of the stuff that is imported are cheap pieces of crap. Harley Davidson prides itself in being a American made motorcycle, but even their bikes are loaded with parts that are made from China.

Very true, and the way you phrased this was so funny!


Here in MA we've been battling it out with people that shouldn't be in politics over windmill farms. I think it's a really cool idea, but the thing that has kept those windmill farms from becoming a reality is bogus politics and whining about how the windmills will ruin the view for people that are out on their boats. :roll: If that doesn't have SMUG written all over it, I don't know what does. Some of these whiners are also self proclaimed full fledged tree huggers which is interesting in and of itself.

In my neighborhood is this very controversial thing called "The Bridges" project. Basically this big wig who owns the Comcast building (which is in the neighborhood, near the river) wants to build this horseshit yuppified development crap. This includes things like Starbucks, a gigantic movie theater with a giant ugly parking lot, and probably a bunch of dumb condos since apparently there aren't enough of THOSE being built already. :rolleyes: 90% of the ACTUAL tax paying residents are vehemently opposed to the whole ordeal. It's not that they're against development, they're just against tacky ugly pointless overly corporate ick development. SOME of the people (the ones with the fancy homes on the bluffs) also are bugged at the idea of having their view ruined. I don't have that same view, but I can sort of see their point. After reading what you just wrote, I'd TOTALLY rather have a big windmill farm near the river in my neighborhood as opposed to the awful "Bridges" project! I suppose the grass is always greener, huh?


Sounds to me like the only trees they are hugging are banana trees to go along with their monkey suits that they put on everyday and they are not alone.

LMAO!

[Sarah]

What about buying new homes? I am always surprised by the number of people who buy new construction, when most places have plenty of older homes for sale.

[artist]

What about buying new homes? I am always surprised by the number of people who buy new construction, when most places have plenty of older homes for sale.

Yes yes! Exactly! Though MOST of my neighbors are super proud of their extremely old homes!

[isobel]

What about buying new homes? I am always surprised by the number of people who buy new construction, when most places have plenty of older homes for sale.

Amen.

It astonishes me to hear people talking about wanting a new home when theirs is six or seven years old. My house is 60 years old and i don't really consider it to be "old". houses are not disposable, people!

[artist]

Amen.

It astonishes me to hear people talking about wanting a new home when theirs is six or seven years old. My house is 60 years old and i don't really consider it to be "old". houses are not disposable, people!

Mine is 127 years old! :)

[Asha]

I wish I could do that! I imagine it is really expensive to convert your house to solar power, but once it was done, that would be great!
i know you don't have an extra penny now, but it can end up being much less expensive than you think. some municipalities offer sizable rebates for installing solar panels. the federal gov't offers tax credits for installing them. if you qualify for both of these things, they are really not so unaffordable to the average family. the problem is that some hoa's and townships have rules against them bc people think they are ugly.

Here in MA we've been battling it out with people that shouldn't be in politics over windmill farms. I think it's a really cool idea, but the thing that has kept those windmill farms from becoming a reality is bogus politics and whining about how the windmills will ruin the view for people that are out on their boats. :roll: If that doesn't have SMUG written all over it, I don't know what does. Some of these whiners are also self proclaimed full fledged tree huggers which is interesting in and of itself.
yup, there is a similar debate in long island, ny. lipa was considering installing wind mills in the ocean, but the residents thought they were too ugly.

it really hard to criticize others bc there are very few people who really live a true environmentalists' life. it takes a lot of self sacrifice. i really try to only buy what i need, but i must admit that i have my guilty pleasures. i love junk food, i don't really need junk food. the packaging most junk food comes in so wasteful, yet its really hard for me to give that up. in addition, we are buying a new home too. yes, we could have bought a used home, but it would have been a lot of hassle and effort to make it fit the needs of multigenerational household. its a give and take for most people.

[carrie9142]

I have a 54 year old brick house! With actual trees in the yard. And oak floors. shhh!

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

In my neighborhood is this very controversial thing called "The Bridges" project. Basically this big wig who owns the Comcast building (which is in the neighborhood, near the river) wants to build this horseshit yuppified development crap. This includes things like Starbucks, a gigantic movie theater with a giant ugly parking lot, and probably a bunch of dumb condos since apparently there aren't enough of THOSE being built already. :rolleyes: 90% of the ACTUAL tax paying residents are vehemently opposed to the whole ordeal. It's not that they're against development, they're just against tacky ugly pointless overly corporate ick development. SOME of the people (the ones with the fancy homes on the bluffs) also are bugged at the idea of having their view ruined. I don't have that same view, but I can sort of see their point. After reading what you just wrote, I'd TOTALLY rather have a big windmill farm near the river in my neighborhood as opposed to the awful "Bridges" project! I suppose the grass is always greener, huh?
Coming from a different POV- in my sister and BIL, there's been a lot of fighting back and forth about developing some land in a neighborhood, near a river. They want to put in some restaurants, some condos, some shops, the same horses*** yuppified stuff, it sounds like. Some of the tax paying residents are vehemently opposed for the same reasons. But what they're not taking into account is that the development will clean up brownfields land, which will be good for the area in the long run, particularly for the river, and that by putting condos and shopping here, they're helping to avoid urban sprawl. They're also making it easier for the people already living there to walk to shops and restaurants as opposed to having to get into a car and drive somewhere.

So- not all development is a net loss for the environment. And, although the development style may not be to your taste, it's not necessarily evil either.

[Niobe]

Also, new homes are considerably more energy efficient then older homes. New appliances too.

[rileyandfredsmom]

Personally, I think we are fed whatever the current 'leading group' wants us to believe. Take for instance, the OP stated that the battery plant didn't have vegetation on it and implied it was from the manufacture of said batteries...a bit later, another poster explained the damage had been done many years previous. The bottom line is, due to poor facility management, the land around the plant had become tainted whether it was current or from the past, we now have 2 different sets of 'facts', which are we to believe??

I've heard paper is better to use at the grocery than plastic but have you ever been to a paper factory? The emissions are horrible and the working conditions are disgusting. Every product comes from a factory, even if it is a 'green' product, it still comes from a factory that produces environmental waste so to tell yourself you are helping the environment because you are buying the higher priced 'green' item...really, looking at the big picture, what type of impact are you making?

Purchasing new instead of old homes....there are multiple arguments to this theory as well. While I have an old home and tend not to like new homes, there are benefits to the new home over the old home. One, newer homes are more energy efficient. My DH and I have spent over $12,000 to get our old home half as energy efficient as the brand new home we moved out of last year. So people are using granite over laminate, laminate countertops are made of paper and filled with chemicals

Formica® decorative laminate consists of layers of specially selected kraft and printed papers impregnated with thermosetting synthetic resins and fused together under heat and high pressure in a controlled environment so that the component parts consolidate to form a single high density sheet of laminate.

A. A protective, transparent layer of alpha cellulose paper impregnated with melamine formaldehyde resin. This provides resistance to stains, heat, scratches and abrasion.

B. A printed sheet incorporating decorative colours or designs impregnated with melamine formaldehyde resin. This gives colour-fastness and clarity.

C. The core layers

what is better, a natural product or a product full of paper and chemicals?

All I'm saying is that there is a yang for every yin. If you want to make a positive impact on the environment in which you live, donate your time to clean up the highways, go to your local park and pick up trash, plant a tree, reduce your consumption, reuse items you already own and recycle.

[artist]

i know you don't have an extra penny now, but it can end up being much less expensive than you think. some municipalities offer sizable rebates for installing solar panels. the federal gov't offers tax credits for installing them. if you qualify for both of these things, they are really not so unaffordable to the average family. the problem is that some hoa's and townships have rules against them bc people think they are ugly.


I guess I don't know what the rules are for the city of St. Paul. If it truly is within reach financially (not now, but eventually in my case), I'd be all about it! I may have to look into that at some point. At least I have a brand new furnace. That was a real pain when the dumb thing exploded on a really cold day and I was without heat for a few days, but at least now I have a brand new furnace! Such a NOT exciting improvement to a home, but more efficient for the earth at least. It's just too bad that you can't invite all your friends over for a party to show off your new furnace in your super creepy basement! Showing off a new coffee table would at least be more fun!

Coming from a different POV- in my sister and BIL, there's been a lot of fighting back and forth about developing some land in a neighborhood, near a river. They want to put in some restaurants, some condos, some shops, the same horses*** yuppified stuff, it sounds like. Some of the tax paying residents are vehemently opposed for the same reasons. But what they're not taking into account is that the development will clean up brownfields land, which will be good for the area in the long run, particularly for the river, and that by putting condos and shopping here, they're helping to avoid urban sprawl. They're also making it easier for the people already living there to walk to shops and restaurants as opposed to having to get into a car and drive somewhere.

So- not all development is a net loss for the environment. And, although the development style may not be to your taste, it's not necessarily evil either.

I see what you're saying, and that's what people who don't live in the neighborhood think sometimes, but when 90% of the community is vehemently opposed, it's not really fair or right for some multi-millionaire to have all the say about what to do with the land. My neighborhood is really "crunchy" and we're not really the type of place that would welcome a Starbucks. We already have SEVERAL fabulous independantly owned coffee shops and bakeries. A Starbucks adds absolutely nothing. A bookstore would be cool. Maybe a co-op or grocery store would be nice. There are some neat old vacant buildings in the area that could be REALLY cool business spaces if the right person would buy them. IF I had the money to do that, I totally would do that, but I am not independently wealthy and would not qualify for that type of a loan right now. Sometimes bigger isn't always better. We want development, but we want "smart" development that includes community input since WE are the ones who live here.

[artist]

Also, new homes are considerably more energy efficient then older homes. New appliances too.

That's true.

[anemone]

Most of the stuff found on any local store shelve is made in China or some other place. Trying to find stuff that is made in the States is rare.....How do things from China get here? They don't just levitate here by themselves. The parts or complete gadget has to be packed on a boat or a plane....If you follow recalls at all, recently there was a big recall on Sesame Street figurines that were being sold by the thousands, if not more because they were covered in lead paint. That lead paint came from China. Lead paint is illegal in this country because it has shown to cause brain damage in children.

This is imortant for environmental reasons, because yes, pretty much everything is being made in China cheaper than any Western Country. Why? Because they don't have the same strict laws governing manufacture of goods, or the same labor laws relating to wages, hours worked etc. Yes, lead paint is highly toxic to children and adults alike, but what do you think is going on in China? This, and other highly poisonous and toxic stuff is being dumped into their landfill, water ways and air. Go and look at Shanghai someday - it is unbelieveably smoggy, and that is not even in the central manufacturing part of the country. Anecdotally there are high rates of cancers and lukemeas that are caused by environmental exposure. And I hate to say it, but just because it's over the other side of the world, they're not in a bubble. We can recycle our newspapers all we want, but until we, the west, are prepared to pay more for our consumer goods, and consume less in general the most populous country in the world will cause havoc with the environment. So maybe think about that next time you buy something with "Made in China" on it, rather than how many miles it traveled (although that is important too).

As for the arguing about hybrid cars, it seems to me this is like the old Cloth Diaper v's disposable argument (ie that washing cloth diapers is worse environmentally than the manufacture and landfill aspects of disposables), and most likely some of the stats you are looking at have been put out by car manufacturers in competition with the hybrids.

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

I see what you're saying, and that's what people who don't live in the neighborhood think sometimes, but when 90% of the community is vehemently opposed, it's not really fair or right for some multi-millionaire to have all the say about what to do with the land. My neighborhood is really "crunchy" and we're not really the type of place that would welcome a Starbucks. We already have SEVERAL fabulous independantly owned coffee shops and bakeries. A Starbucks adds absolutely nothing. A bookstore would be cool. Maybe a co-op or grocery store would be nice. There are some neat old vacant buildings in the area that could be REALLY cool business spaces if the right person would buy them. IF I had the money to do that, I totally would do that, but I am not independently wealthy and would not qualify for that type of a loan right now. Sometimes bigger isn't always better. We want development, but we want "smart" development that includes community input since WE are the ones who live here.
I guess I wonder though, how do they know it's 90%, and not a vocal minority? Do they know what the actual plans are- what shops are going in besides a Starbucks? The thing is, my sister and BIL's area is very "crunchy" too. And although you might not like Starbucks, it may be an improvement on a vacant building that's on brownfield land.

[jnettie]

Also, Starbucks is one of the more environmentally friendly companies and most (if not all) of their coffee is Fair Trade coffee. Plus, they give awesome benefits to their employees. Just FYI.

As for the "crunchy" types begin against the windmills, I'm going to say those are poser yuppie crunchies, not true environmentalists.

[Sarah Smyth]

As for the batteries - there is pollution for any factory. My question is is the pollution from the battery factory worse than the pollution for the oil industry? Is is not better than the alternative?

I really don't know. I can't think of a good thing to say about either one of them.

If I knew of a alternative that was honestly enviromentally friendly, I'd be announcing it from mountain tops. I don't know if that answers your question or not though. If you're asking me which is the lesser evil, I can't say either way on that as both of them cause problems.

If a company is going to claim that they have a enviromentally friendly product regardless of what the product is, that company should be held accountable for that product. If there is anything shady about their product, it should be right up front for everybody to see. Reality of course states otherwise, but alittle accountabilty tends to keep people honest.

The only example I have for this is all the hub-bub that surrounds organic fruits & vegetables. Depending on who you listen to, odds are you will get a different answer as to what "organic" really means.

As I understand it ( I could be completely wrong) in order for a fruit or vegetable to be labeled as organic, they cannot have been grown with any type of chemical fertilizers, growth horomones, pesticides, ect. However, if you went out to buy a bottle of organic wine as an example, you will find companies use the word organic on their label, but if you actually read it, some of them are not so organic.

A funny example of this weird labeling that has nothing to do with fruit or veggies can be found in Mac & Cheese aisle of your grocery store. It always amuses me when I see these companies that make some version of Mac & Cheese and toss a "organic" label on it, as if dried processed cheese and pasta that has been equally abused and processed is organic.

The same can be said for wheat products. Everybody and their mother has jumped on the "Whole Wheat" bandwagon, but when you read the majority of the labels of these products, alot of them don't contain any whole wheat at all. Instead they consist of some wheat by-product is different than using the healthy part of the plant.

I ramble about this stuff, but I don't have any answers. Just when I think I've wrapped my brain around one thing, something else pops up.

[Niobe]

From wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_certification) regarding organic certification and labeling.
Being able to put the word "organic" on a food product is a valuable marketing advantage in today's consumer market. Certification is intended to protect consumers from misuse of the term, and make buying organics easy. However, the organic labelling made possible by certification itself usually requires explanation.

In the US, federal organic legislation defines three levels of organics. Products made entirely with certified organic ingredients and methods can be labelled "100% organic". Products with 95% organic ingredients can use the word "organic". Both may also display the USDA organic seal. A third category, containing a minimum of 70% organic ingredients, can be labelled "made with organic ingredients". In addition, products may also display the logo of the certification body that approved them. Products made with less than 70% organic ingredients can not advertise this information to consumers and can only mention this fact in the product's ingredient statement. Similar percentages and labels apply in the EU.

Crops of all kinds - fruits, vegetables, grains, etc - and animal products can be certified organic. The rules governing crops and animals are obviously somewhat different, but it's entirely possible for mac and cheese to be organic. Organic grains make organic pasta, organic cows make organic milk makes organic cheese.

[jnettie]

SS - I think the goal is to leave as little impact as possible. But it's about balancing what's plausible and what's not.

I think that we can agree that in a long term sense, a hybrid car uses less oil than your average regular car. But both the hybrid and the regular car must be made in a factory. The question is (and I don't expect you to have the answer) does the pollution produced by the battery factory outweigh the oil saved from the use of a hybrid car? However, at this point in time there's only so much that one can do since I don't think most people, no matter how environmentally concerned, are willing to give up their car altogether. So, one needs to make the smarter decision based on what is available.

But, I agree, if we are serious about the environment, I think that a factory that produces a so called "green" car should itself be as green as possible.

On organics - the biggest problem is that the standards for what can be called "organic" is extremely low. Really, it's just growing without pesticides. That's it. My backyard garden, then, qualifies as "organic" because I don't use pesticides. Real, honest to goodness organic farmers are really ticked because the USDA hands out "certified organic" labels way too easily. The organic farmers I know (I told you I was a true crunchy ;) ) are very very careful about how they grow their veggies, more so than most of the "organic" foods that end up on the grocery store shelf. And you can tell the difference. True organic eggs have a thicker shell and a creamier texture. But the ones you buy at the grocery store usually are just like regular eggs, only brown.

If you want to be sure to get real organics, go to a farmer's market or a food co-op. It's certainly more effort, but if it's important to you, it's worth it.

[artist]

I guess I wonder though, how do they know it's 90%, and not a vocal minority? Do they know what the actual plans are- what shops are going in besides a Starbucks? The thing is, my sister and BIL's area is very "crunchy" too. And although you might not like Starbucks, it may be an improvement on a vacant building that's on brownfield land.

I guess we'll never know because the election for the board to our district council was basically rigged. (No, this is not just me saying that. This is a common belief held by the press, most residents, the city council, etc.) By "rigged" I mean that the developer guy basically paid a bunch of his employees (of Comcast) to show up and vote for board members in favor of his plan. The employees were in fact eligible to vote, because unfortunately our district council allows people to vote for district council board members if they live, work, or volunteer in the neighborhood. Therefore the election results were very much influenced by people who don't even live in the neighborhood. There were about 1000 people who showed up for the district council board elections. I bet MOST people, even people very into politics, don't give a crap or pay attention to their district council. For some reason it's a really big deal where I live. Anyway, sorry to give you such a LONGwinded answer, but in this particular case, the residents truly are quite opposed to the whole thing. We really do have PLENTY of quaint wonderful coffee shops already. Starbucks can bite me! :)

[artist]

Also, Starbucks is one of the more environmentally friendly companies and most (if not all) of their coffee is Fair Trade coffee. Plus, they give awesome benefits to their employees. Just FYI.


Well sure, but they're also taking over the planet! I get that people love their Starbuck's brand frappacinos. I also agree with what you just posted. However, I do get annoyed when Starbuck's randomly plops itself right smack dab next to a wonderful little independent coffee shop. I like to go to cafes that are unique and one of a kind. But you're right that the mom and pop shops don't really do much when it comes to benefits for the employees. Some are better than others for things like fair trade coffee. Where I live, I actually like Dunn Bros. (a small local chain) better than Starbucks. They roast their coffee right there and it's so strong it could make even women grow hair on their chests! :D

[artist]

If you want to be sure to get real organics, go to a farmer's market or a food co-op. It's certainly more effort, but if it's important to you, it's worth it.

What's interesting though is that Trader Joe's apparently is anti-union though. So if you shop there, you're supporting locally grown organic food, but you're also supporting union busting. It's a catch 22 I suppose.

That's one of those blue v. green debates. As in a "blue" liberal v. a "green" liberal. (Blue meaning blue collar/union/working class and green meaning crunchy granola environmentalist.) I like to joke that I'm a tourquoise liberal! Or I should say I strive to be. Obviously it's impossible to be a purist about things like this. Heck, I drive. I use gasoline. I don't like that I do, but I often have no other choice. I probably buy products routinely that are not very ethical. I am sitting here looking at an empty Coke bottle from earlier today. How is that ethical?

Regardless, I think it's important to at least try to be mindful about our consumerism and our choices. None of us is ever going to be perfect. But that isn't an excuse to be lazy. I am sure ALL of us could think of at least five really small and simple ways to be more eco-friendly. At least we're all talking about it and thinking about it. This is not a new issue. My grandpa was talking about his concern for the ozone layer in the 1950s. I guess for some reason more and more people are finally believing global warming is a real threat and they don't want to ignore it anymore. I just really hope it's not too late.

[chortles]

Sarah Smythe - are you writing some sort of book or article based on comments you receive on this site?

[jenjunum]

I've heard about the Hummer vs. Prius article. It also assumes that a Hummer is going to last to 350k miles and a Prius will only last to 120k (I think). We can't guess whether either of these things is true since both car have only been around a few years (I don't think anyone can argue that the original Hummers--like the military used--have all that much in common with the consumer version). My coworker has had a Prius for over 4 years (she had it when I started working with her 4 years ago) and has never replaced the battery. I also saw a crashed Prius today. It was rear-ended. It appeared to fair well. Better than the other small sedan that hit it. The entire back bumper fell off but other than that it didn't look too bad.

My next car will be a hybrid. If we are able to have 2 cars we'll have one very small, very energy-efficient hybrid (or even an electric). I'd like to wait for the plug in Prius to come out. And a hybrid suv since we do use an suv for what it was intended. When we own our own home we'll strive to get solar panels.

I recommend the show Living with Ed (http://www.livingwithed.net/). It's a hilarious look at an environmentalist living with a typical Angeleno. Really funny. But it actually gave me a lot of idea about how I'd like to make my house more environmentally friendly.

[artist]

Sarah Smythe - are you writing some sort of book or article based on comments you receive on this site?

And if so, can we all get paid for our opinions? :D

[jnettie]

Sarah Smythe - are you writing some sort of book or article based on comments you receive on this site?
I was thinking this as well. There was a previous controversy on CC involving Sarah about a year ago, wasn't there?

But I found this topic interesting...so I guess I'm throwing caution to the wind. ;)

What's interesting though is that Trader Joe's apparently is anti-union though. So if you shop there, you're supporting locally grown organic food, but you're also supporting union busting. It's a catch 22 I suppose.

That's one of those blue v. green debates. As in a "blue" liberal v. a "green" liberal. (Blue meaning blue collar/union/working class and green meaning crunchy granola environmentalist.) I like to joke that I'm a tourquoise liberal! Or I should say I strive to be.
I didn't know that about Trader Joe's. Interesting. Of course, it's the rare company/manger that is pro-union, no? ;)

Anyway, the organic farmers I know (and it's only 2) have very small farms and are the only farmers (ie, they don't hire anyone to work for them) and therefore it's a moot point. I don't know what the larger farms do for labor, so can't really comment.

I consider myself turquoise, too. :) Environmental issues are very important to me, so I try to do my very best to be careful about waste, recycling, and conserving energy. I'm also a union supporter, and come September, a union member! Of course, my union isn't exactly blue collar...but in Education. But having the union is good for me because it means I can finally go to the dentist!

[jnettie]

Well sure, but they're also taking over the planet! I get that people love their Starbuck's brand frappacinos. I also agree with what you just posted. However, I do get annoyed when Starbuck's randomly plops itself right smack dab next to a wonderful little independent coffee shop.

Well, yeah, there is that. ;) They also have a knack for showing up in the cheep neighborhoods I've lived in and causing my rent to go up $200. (Well, maybe Starbucks didn't make my rent go up, but the gentrification that came along with it sure did!)

Personally, I'm not a huge Starbucks fan, but they are good for a clean bathroom when I have to pee. And since there is one on every block, I'm never far from a toilet! :D

[artist]

Personally, I'm not a huge Starbucks fan, but they are good for a clean bathroom when I have to pee. And since there is one on every block, I'm never far from a toilet! :D

That is so funny! The idea of not liking the place but thinking at least it provides a nice clean place to pee! :D

[artist]

I didn't know that about Trader Joe's. Interesting. Of course, it's the rare company/manger that is pro-union, no? ;)

Anyway, the organic farmers I know (and it's only 2) have very small farms and are the only farmers (ie, they don't hire anyone to work for them) and therefore it's a moot point. I don't know what the larger farms do for labor, so can't really comment.


I think it was more that the stores were union busting the employees of the store. Not anything with the farmers. I am doing a Google search to try to find more on that. It appears Whole Foods is anti-union as well.

ETA:
I found myself laughing just now at this blog (http://www.pjchmiel.com/arc/000031.html)!

[artist]

From another blog about grocery store workers preparing to picket in April of 2007 (http://gspotmagazine.blogspot.com/2007/04/grocery-workers-prepare-to-picket.html):


...Reuters reports that other labor unions, such as Los Angeles County Federation of Labor, the Screen Actors Guild, Teamsters and the American Federation of Teachers, have vowed to support the strike. That could include demonstrations, boycotts and picket line support. During the last grocery strike, members of the Teamsters Union refused to delivery goods to stores affected by the strike...

...Many of my friends have said that they will shop at Trader Joes or Whole Foods, but their employees are not unionized, so this seems counterintuitive if you want to support the strike...

...And as long as we’re on the subject of unions, Starbucks has a strong history of anti-union activity...

[artist]

Here is a little more about the Blue Green Alliance (http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Blue-Green-Alliance&id=635580).

In my opinion, John Edwards (http://www.wwaytv3.com/edwards_environmental_work_can_mean_manufacturing_ jobs/07/2007) seems to be the best candidate for blue green issues.

[JamBray]

So if you shop there, you're supporting locally grown organic food,
I have to disagree with is (at least at my TJs), for all of the organic produce that I buy seems to be coming in from Mexico. And O/T, another thing that drives me crazy about them is that they package a lot of it in either plastic, styrofoam, or netting. It's only until just recently that they have brought in some free standing fruits, but it's quite a limited selection.
A funny example of this weird labeling that has nothing to do with fruit or veggies can be found in Mac & Cheese aisle of your grocery store. It always amuses me when I see these companies that make some version of Mac & Cheese and toss a "organic" label on it, as if dried processed cheese and pasta that has been equally abused and processed is organic.
Well the cheese and pasta may be dried, but if they were grown organically then the name still stands. Drying doesn't take that away.

[jnettie]

I think it was more that the stores were union busting the employees of the store. Not anything with the farmers. I am doing a Google search to try to find more on that. It appears Whole Foods is anti-union as well.
Yeah, this happens a lot. The school I used to work at is now in a huge battle with their faculty and staff over unionization. They are spending mucho bucks on this notorious union busting lawyer. It's really quite upsetting. The school really needs a union, too because they tend to hire people PT, then pile a whole bunch of additional responsibilities on you. My job was like this.

But this is kinda of topic.

And as long as we’re on the subject of unions, Starbucks has a strong history of anti-union activity
While I am pro-union, and there are certainly times when a union is very important, I don't know how necessary it is for Starbucks employees to unionize. I mean, it's not a career, and like I said, they are pretty good to their employees. The pay isn't awesome, but you get full benefits even if you are PT.

I know for sure that Al Gore is very pro-union. I recall an event that he refused to attend once because the workers were on strike and he won't cross a picket line. You go, Al!

[ysolde]

I think reduce, reuse and recycle is really what it's all about. Count me among those who have replaced my light bulbs with CFLs only as my old light bulbs have burned out. I have a pretty Limoges tea-for-one set I bought used off eBay (double reuse), and this is where I brew my tea all day long at the office. No Starbucks for me! As a NYer, I use public transportation exclusively, so cars are not an issue for me. Since I live alone, I don't flush at night (if it's yellow, it's mellow). I tend to buy at the local farmer's market because the food is better, and because there is less of a carbon footpring in transporting it. And I have my own canvas bag to carry my food in. I have another canvas bag for bookstores and the like. I have also gotten into lending and borrowing books, and only buying books I really love. I do not subscribe to a newspaper in print -- I subscribe online. And when moving, I did not buy a single box; I reused boxes that others in my building who had moved in had discarded.

I hate to think what G-d will think of us, if we destroy his Creation out of avarice and sloth.

[Amuse Bouche]

On the Trader Joe's union issue, I believe they're known for good labor practices -- they pay high wages (higher than the local unionized grocery stores) and offer good benefits, including pensions. I shop at TJ's a lot, and the employees generally seem pretty happy and there's low turnover.

[artist]

On the Trader Joe's union issue, I believe they're known for good labor practices -- they pay high wages (higher than the local unionized grocery stores) and offer good benefits, including pensions. I shop at TJ's a lot, and the employees generally seem pretty happy and there's low turnover.

Well, if that's the case, maybe they're not so bad afterall.

With regard to Starbuck's being union busting; I do see that point that perhaps coffee shop baristas don't NEED to be unionized as it is not really a "career". However, I still am very bothered when a group of workers tries to organize and the company stops them, threatens their jobs, hires union busters and anti-union lawyers, etc.

In the end, it's not just Starbucks or Walmart or Whole Foods that are anti-union. A LOT of companies appear to be that way. Not only that, but I've encountered plenty of people, including liberals, who appear to be pretty anti-union. I suppose some unions have given unions in general a bad name which is unfortunate. In the end though, I feel that unions look out for workers' rights more than companies do.

Sorry to get so off topic! I do feel though that often labor issues and environmental issues cross over and as a consumer, it's challenging when you want to support both issues, especially if doing so might sometimes cost more money to the consumer.

[jnettie]

I hate to think what G-d will think of us, if we destroy his Creation out of avarice and sloth.
Ah, quite the point. I like that! I may steal that quote from you (or, shall I say "reuse"?) and use it to my advantage in the future.

In the end, it's not just Starbucks or Walmart or Whole Foods that are anti-union. A LOT of companies appear to be that way.
I'd go so far as to say nearly all companies are anti-union. ;) After all, what does a union do for them except cost them more money.


I think that there are some huge problems in many unions that will need to be taken care of eventually. I think Unions are very important, and they were certainly necessary! I don't think that they should go away. But I can see within my industry (theater) some major problems. The unions have strict regulations for number of stagehands for a certain size theater or number of musicians required in an orchestra, etc, regardless of the actual needs of a particular production. A friend of mine, an actor, was put on probation by Actor's Equity because he produced his own play that he wrote and starred in - which they said was a "conflict of interest." Totally unreasonable. But, AE is a huge asset to him, it provides him health insurance and provides a pension. Without it, directors could (and would) work actors all day without many breaks and well into the night. So, on the one hand he really needs it, on the other, there are some stupid rules that just get in the way.