Breeding - Need advice

[charliezangel]

We are planning to breed our year old Jack Russell Terrier after her second heat (which should be sometime in the next 4-6 months). We will have the male dog in our home.

Can anyone give me advice as to how to go about this. Do i just leave them in the house together and hope they like eachother?? I'm going to do some more reaserch but i was hoping someone here had some previous experience.

[PinkMartini]

I have to ask this because of my background with dogs - but WHY do you want to breed your dog? Is she an outstanding specimen of the breed? Is she papered? Has she accomplished any titles? Your goals should always be to improve the breed in some way, so what is it specifically you are hoping to achieve with this mating? Are all/most of the pups that may be born spoken for? Has your female, and the male in question, had all the health checks required for the breed (OFA, CERF, VwD, BAER, cardiomyopathy, thyroid, brucellosis since you're breeding to an outside stud?) by the respective specialists?

We bred our male dogue de bordeaux after researching it for 2 years. He was over half way to his ch. title (which he's finished since) when he was bred and was bred to a multi ch. female. The bitch's owner had a waiting list of people who were interested in a pup; had spay/neuter contracts on all but 2 pups (who were looking to be show quality); and has kept in touch since the pups were sent to their new homes. She's a well known breeder/handler in the US as well as Europe.

Since you've never done this before, if you still plan on doing it, is it possible to have a mentor there with you? Maybe a local reputable JRT breeder? Some dogs won't mate and some breeders end up 'helping' them along.

When you have the litter you have to worry about how she will accept them, how many she will have, if you will have their tails and dewclaws done or not, which things fall under the breed standard, as you will be marketing these pups as AKC I would think. How many pups also will dicate the costs of vaccinating the puppies and deworming them.

(And please don't be offended by my questions - I ask these because of all of the BYB's I saw while searching for my own dogs and would hate to see you spend time/effort/$$$ on breeding your female and it end badly)

[jesvet]

charliezangel-
Please take what PinkMartini said to heart. There is SO much that goes into breeding dogs well, the knowledge and the cost and the time commitment and the financial commitment and finding the right pair to breed- PLEASE don't go into this without doing a heck of a lot of research. If you don't have experienced Jack Russell people accessible who can help you I really advise against breeding.

[Chile]

My advice is don't. One breeds for the betterment of the breed? Will your dogs better the breed? Read PinkMartini's questions and really think about them and research this. Please do not become a backyard breeder.

[j*east]

I'm sorry to say I agree with the others. My ILs have bred (breeded?) two litters of show dogs, which I suppose is furthering the breed, but it has been a huge headache and, IMO, a waste of time, money, energy, resources, and homes that could go to dogs already living who really need them.

Are you really ready to deal with:
--impregnating
--taking care of a pregnant dog
--birthing the litter, possibly having a few pups not survive
--taking care of the litter, including a pen, heat control, having part of your home smell like dog waste for months (did you know that the mother dog commonly eats her pups' feces in the first few weeks?), newspapers everywhere while pups are untrained? Also, remember you can't leave the pups outside unless you live in a tmeperature controlled area with no predators
--staying home with the pups 24/7 to make sure all are feeding regularly and none are smothered
--doing countless vet visits with the pups that cost $$$
--and finally, the biggest headache of all, finding homes for them all? Homes you trust? Balancing wanting to get rid of the dogs (who have been a TON of work) with wanting to see them go to good people? Dealing with friends/family who may not do what you want with the dogs, or who may pressure you to offer them a deal?
--Paying for all this? It cost my ILs thousands of dollars, in excess of what they made on selling the pups, and two are still left. They planned to keep one, but the other had a "birth defect" (underbite) that made her undesirable for showing.

As the owner of a shelter mutt, I generally don't see the point in breeding dogs much at all, and I really don't see the point in trying to do it yourself.

[Hello Kitty]

charliezangel-
If you don't have experienced Jack Russell people accessible who can help you I really advise against breeding.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. I'm sorry, but the fact that you're posting this on CC just speaks volumes to me about how unready you are. It's certainly not something you can just get advice from a general chat board about. Please take Pink's words to heart.

[charliezangel]

OK, so let me start out by saying, I appreciate all the warnings...And I have taken EVERYTHING into consideration. And we are willing and completely able to handle what comes with breeding a dog. The woman who we are getting the male pup from has been breeding JRT for 20 years and has offered to help us with the breeding and whelping process when it is time.

As far as bettering the breed, well, you'd be very naive to think that every breeder is doing such. This woman I am getting our pup from has been breeding for domesticated purposes for 20 years. I'm sure some of her dogs go to show, but most of them are sold to families and individuals who want a domesticated animal as a companion. Right now, the pup will be to young to breed, and our 1 yr old still has about 6 months to a year before she is ready. So there is a lot of time to prepare.

My main question was just getting the dogs together. If it's something that we would have to help with or do they just "do it" when the time is right?? But I guess I will speak to our breeder friend since everyone here feels the need to lecture me

[BethIrish]

Actually, know what? Never mind.

I hope things turn out the way you want them to.

[Sue]

As far as bettering the breed, well, you'd be very naive to think that every breeder is doing such. This woman I am getting our pup from has been breeding for domesticated purposes for 20 years. I'm sure some of her dogs go to show, but most of them are sold to families and individuals who want a domesticated animal as a companion. Right now, the pup will be to young to breed, and our 1 yr old still has about 6 months to a year before she is ready. So there is a lot of time to prepare.


Just because someone else is doing doesn't make it right. Here's an idea... do a search on Petfinder and see how many Jack Russells are in need of a home, that are sitting in kill shelters waiting to die, whose families tossed them aside. Then think about how responsible someone breeding for pets is... not very responsible at all.

[May27JnJ]

I don't have any answers for you, but I hope you get one from someone who can help. It gets frustrating when people have to give their opinion instead of answering your questions. I wish I could help you.

[BethIrish]

Just because someone else is doing doesn't make it right. Here's an idea... do a search on Petfinder and see how many Jack Russells are in need of a home, that are sitting in kill shelters waiting to die, whose families tossed them aside. Then think about how responsible someone breeding for pets is... not very responsible at all.


That would be 2,077 JRT/PRT on Petfinder.

[charliezangel]

Just because someone else is doing doesn't make it right. Here's an idea... do a search on Petfinder and see how many Jack Russells are in need of a home, that are sitting in kill shelters waiting to die, whose families tossed them aside. Then think about how responsible someone breeding for pets is... not very responsible at all.

At this point, I have at least 5 puppies spoken for. I completely understand what you are saying, and it makes complete sense and I would HATE for my puppies to end up in a shelter or without homes. We have decided that we will not even attempt to breed, unless we know that we have 8-10 puppies spoken for.

By the time we are ready to even start the breeding process, we will be living in a much larger home. There will be plenty of room for pups and mom and dad to be happy and healthy. I will also probably be a SAHW at that point with the way DH's business has been going. Trust me, we have taken everything into consideration to do this. I have spent a great deal of time researching and getting info. I was just hoping that someone else on these boards had some experience and might be able to tell me about it.

[charliezangel]

I don't have any answers for you, but I hope you get one from someone who can help. It gets frustrating when people have to give their opinion instead of answering your questions. I wish I could help you.

Thank you very much....

[Sue]

At this point, I have at least 5 puppies spoken for. I completely understand what you are saying, and it makes complete sense and I would HATE for my puppies to end up in a shelter or without homes. We have decided that we will not even attempt to breed, unless we know that we have 8-10 puppies spoken for.

By the time we are ready to even start the breeding process, we will be living in a much larger home. There will be plenty of room for pups and mom and dad to be happy and healthy. I will also probably be a SAHW at that point with the way DH's business has been going. Trust me, we have taken everything into consideration to do this. I have spent a great deal of time researching and getting info. I was just hoping that someone else on these boards had some experience and might be able to tell me about it.


Will you have the puppies fixed before they go? What happens to the puppies 6 months or a year after they are in there homes and they aren't wanted anymore? Will you take them back? What if it's 5 years from now? Will you have the families sign a contract agreeing to basic care? Will you do home visits and check references? There is a lot involved...

[charliezangel]

Sue just out of curiosity, do you breed pups??

[rileyandfredsmom]

You know what is frustrating is the fact that PinkMartini asked you some very pointed questions and instead of answering them, you ignore them with the attitude that "I'm breeding my dog because I want to and I'm going to ignore the advice and opinions of those I asked for help from."

If you don't know enough to know how to get the animals to mate, then, IMO, you don't need to be breeding your pet. Which, I guess she really isn't a pet as you want to put her through this for no apparent reason other than for the money. If she isn't a perfect or near perfect specimen of the breed, why breed her? The male you are breeding her with, what are his credentials, what are you specifically breeding for or breeding out? Is this just a match because you have a female JRT and she has a male? Was any thought put into what you want the outcome to be?

The lady a few doors down from does Jack Russell rescue and always has a few new ones from families that didn't know enough about the breed when they bought it and the BYB didn't really care what their expecations of the dog were. Shelters are full of these little guys too.

Sorry, maybe a message board where people are always being encouraged to adopt from a shelter isn't the right place to ask for help breeding with no apparent reason. I did a quick google search and found plenty of breeder specific message boards that might be better able to answer your questions.

[Sue]

Sue just out of curiosity, do you breed pups??

No, I don't, never will. Will never buy a dog from a breeder or pet shop either. I am very active in rescue.

ETA... The questions I asked are steps that a responsible breeder will take to make sure their pups are going into responsible homes - if they have any pet quality pups in a breeding. But then again responsible breeders also breed to better the breed :)

[charliezangel]

You know what is frustrating is the fact that PinkMartini asked you some very pointed questions and instead of answering them, you ignore them with the attitude that "I'm breeding my dog because I want to and I'm going to ignore the advice and opinions of those I asked for help from."

If you don't know enough to know how to get the animals to mate, then, IMO, you don't need to be breeding your pet. Which, I guess she really isn't a pet as you want to put her through this for no apparent reason other than for the money. If she isn't a perfect or near perfect specimen of the breed, why breed her? The male you are breeding her with, what are his credentials, what are you specifically breeding for or breeding out? Is this just a match because you have a female JRT and she has a male? Was any thought put into what you want the outcome to be?

The lady a few doors down from does Jack Russell rescue and always has a few new ones from families that didn't know enough about the breed when they bought it and the BYB didn't really care what their expecations of the dog were. Shelters are full of these little guys too.

Sorry, maybe a message board where people are always being encouraged to adopt from a shelter isn't the right place to ask for help breeding with no apparent reason. I did a quick google search and found plenty of breeder specific message boards that might be better able to answer your questions.


You know what's even more annoying, when people don't read posts from the OP!!!! *GASP* you mean you have to follow along in the conversation to make a valid point?? Wow, never knew

If you HAD been following along, you would have read the post where I said we had taken into consideration everything that is involved with breeding (since i personally did not feel the need to answer every single one of PinkMartini's questions individualy, although I do take everything she has said to heart. Sorry i didn't do good enough for you) and we are able to handle breeding and whelping a littler of pups. I also answered her question about having someone available to help that is knowledgeable in JRT breeding (as I have already stated twice, someone who has been doing so for 20 years). I have ALSO responded to what Sue brought up with puppies going to shelters and not being adopted right away. So, I think maybe, before you jump to post on a thread, you might want to READ it first. Makes you look like less of a .... yeah

[Hello Kitty]

So if you know everything about breeding pups, why do you feel the need to ask, so eloquently how they 'do it?' Hopefully you can ask your breeder mentor how they mate. Or like Riley said, there are a whole host of internet sites where they explain how things are done.

BTW, were you ever able to get your kitten fixed?

[Sue]

Well, no, not really... you said that you hate to have your pups end up in a shelter or w/o homes, but all you're doing is making sure you have homes before you breed? What happens if in 3 years the family doesn't want the dog anymore? What happens to the dog then? What about speutering, contracts, home visits? Will you require training classes? And your mentor has been breeding with the intention of having pet quality pups for 20 years, not to better the breed, the wrong mentor to have IMO.

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

There is no point in asking a question like this on this board and then being upset because people judge you for it. There's strong sentiment on here against backyard breeders, and like it or not, that's pretty much what you'd be doing.

You're doing the equivalent of asking "What's the best way to get the most expensive presents out of my wedding guests" or "What's the longest I can leave my baby in the car while I'm getting my nails done" and then expecting people not to criticize you for it. Which is ridiculous.

[MLA]

Trust me, we have taken everything into consideration to do this. I have spent a great deal of time researching and getting info.

Maybe it's because I don't breed animals, but it's really hard for me to believe that you've spent "a great deal of time" researching when you don't even know how to get your dogs to mate . . . Seems like that would be one of the first things you'd do. *shrugs*

[BethIrish]

If you've already got 5 puppies spoken for, you'd be doing the dogs a bigger favor if you directed those people to petfinder, where they can get one of the 2,077 JRT that are available there.

[j*east]

Maybe it's because I don't breed animals, but it's really hard for me to believe that you've done a great deal of time researching when you don't even know how to get your dogs to mate . . . Seems like that would be one of the first things you'd do. *shrugs*

Yeah, I agree. Also, you (OP) asked for people who have had experience...and some people here have.

Really, have you spent any time at all working with shelter dogs? Once you see how many go without good homes, I think you'd see why breeding without an awfully good reason is just plain irresponsible.

If after all this you're still determined, it looks like you'd be better off looking elsewhere for information.

[charliezangel]

So if you know everything about breeding pups, why do you feel the need to ask, so eloquently how they 'do it?' Hopefully you can ask your breeder mentor how they mate. Or like Riley said, there are a whole host of internet sites where they explain how things are done.

BTW, were you ever able to get your kitten fixed?

Yeah, I agree. Also, you (OP) asked for people who have had experience...and some people here have.

Really, have you spent any time at all working with shelter dogs? Once you say how many go without good homes, I think you'd see why breeding without an awfully good reason is just plain irresponsible.

If after all this you're still determined, it looks like you'd be better off looking elsewhere for information.

Uh, not one person has claimed to breed dogs, i don't know what experience you are seeing that I'm not.

On top of that, it's still going to be a while before we even start this process. I may change my mind, we may not even be able to, i don't know.

Anyway, since i'm obviously not hearing from anyone who has had experience with this, it seems pointless to continue this. I appreciate the opinions given thus far, but that's not what i asked for. I'll certainly take everything to heart before we do anything. I'll have a mod lock the thread

[jnettie]

Uh, not one person has claimed to breed dogs, i don't know what experience you are seeing that I'm not.


We bred our male dogue de bordeaux after researching it for 2 years.

There's one.

[EJM]

From everything I have read, it is generally the responsibility of the owner of the male dog to ensure the tie is done properly to increase the chances of the breeding working out. They should not be left alone to "complete" the process as a male dog can be rather agressive in ensuring the job is done, and I wouldn't want to take the chance that my dog would be injured in the process.

As someone who was extremely involved in rescue and has done tons of research on breeding of dogs (for my own information, because I would NEVER breed dogs -- way too many already in this world), I would encourage you to please spend some time doing additional research.

Just because someone has been breeding dogs for 20 years doesn't make them an expert. Attend dog shows and get to know top ranked breeders who would mentor you in the process.

[t3h_wookiee]

So you're wanting us to help give you info on how to become a backyard breeder, when it's obvious how much BYBs are disliked? :rolleyes: This is just like the ongoing fight I have with my brother who wants to breed his Mastiffs for the money, because they are "rare" colors. IE, not AKC show quality colors. It angers me so much.

[mjfish]

OP -- do you know what a BYB is? The reason I ask is because that is exactly what you will be...out strickly for the $$...

The reason I say this is because you have not titled your female, you have no clue if the male is titled, you have no idea what qualities you are breeding for or to breeding out, ect. You have NO IDEA if your female and/or male are even good representatives of the breed, let alone anything else! You are not looking to better the breed, and that is what true, ethical breeders are about.

And let's talk about the 2000+ JRTs on Petfinder alone...how do you think they made it into this world? All by puppy mills? I can guarantee you the majority came from BYBs like you would be -- why contribute to the problem? If one of your puppy-owners does not want the dog after a year, are you going to have it in your contract that they give it back? Are you prepared to get one or more puppies/dogs back and care for them (possibly for life) or rehome them? Do you have the expertise to consult with your puppy owners on any issues they may face, from rearing the pup to health issues? Are you going to pay the $$ for the proper health clearances on your male and female so that you know you are bringing puppies into this world that have a better chance at having healthy lives?

Just because your "friend" has been doing this for 20 years doesn't mean she isn't a BYB herself. I'd be curious to know how many dogs has she had returned? Does she know where all of her puppies are today?

Please, please, please take to heart what everyone is saying here. We're not bashing you, just trying to get you to understand the ramifications of breeding just for the heck of it (which is really just for the $$).

[charliezangel]

the last thing I'm in it for is the $. Most of these pups would be going to famil for free...if we end up doing it.

[southerner]

I appreciate the opinions given thus far, but that's not what i asked for. I'll certainly take everything to heart before we do anything. I'll have a mod lock the thread
You can't dictate how people are going to respond or what they are going to say/not say when you start a thread like this. You've been on CC long enough to know that there's a lot of posters who are passionate about animals, what did you expect?

It makes it look even worse when you run off to have a mod lock the thread b/c you're dissatisfied with the replies you've received :rolleyes:

[Niobe]

You are aware that (proper) dog breeding is VERY expensive, so if you are giving the dogs away, are you going to shell out the money to have the puppies spayed/neutered and vaxed before giving them away?

Also, smaller breeds can have problems birthing naturally, due to the generations of breeding down the size of the dogs. Are you prepared for regular vet visits while your dog is pregnant and the chance that your dog might require a c-section to deliver? (My friend wasn't and her dog and all the puppies are now dead)

I don't understand WHY you want to breed your dog at all, if not to improve the breed OR for money, as it's a very expensive process. Unless you are planning to just neglect all the medical expenses...

ETA: also, what about the stud fee? Any reputable breeder would be charging you a stud fee to use their male dog. Are they taking the pick of the litter (seems unlikely, as you haven't indicated your dog being a champion of any kind) or are the male's owners not breeders themselves?

[fuzzy]

Most of these pups would be going to famil for free

Oh sweet monkey...let me re-state what PP have said: PETFINDER.COM

There's lots and lots and lots (um, I think we've determined thousands) of JRTs on there. And, they are more or less free! What luck! You're family members get a dog and you don't have to figure out how dogs "do it!"

[Sue]

the last thing I'm in it for is the $. Most of these pups would be going to famil for free...if we end up doing it.

But why bring more pups into the world when there are plenty of dogs in shelters and breed specific rescues that are literally dying for homes?

From jackrussells.com (http://www.jackrussells.com/jrtinfo.html#Thinking%20about%20having%20a%20litte r%20for%20fun%20or%20profit?)

Thinking about having a litter for fun or profit?

Thinking about having a litter for fun or profit? Go to the local pound or animal shelter. How many of those dogs do you think came from ethical breeders who carefully plan (puppies are all spoken for financially before the dog is even bred)? Strictly screen potential puppy owners? Commit 2 months of their lives to prenatal care and worry (no going out for too long with a pregnant bitch at home)? And the next two months after whelping to papers and piddle and puppy poop? To say nothing of socializing them and teaching all of them (4-6 sometimes as many as 9) the basics of what they need to know when they go out into the world. And that's if everything goes well. If it doesn't it can mean a Cesarean section, the loss of the pups, the loss of your bitch. Unsound pups that require euthanasia. Sickly pups that require tube feeding (inserting a tube down the throat into the stomach). Undesirable temperaments, and on and on. To say nothing of the time and expense of finding and acquiring a good stud dog, vet bills, vitamin supplements, etc. How many of those pound dogs do you think were produced by breeders who are committed to keeping contact with the owners of the puppies they have bred for the rest of those puppies lives? Now how many of the thousands of dogs, do you think, that are put to death each and every minute have come from people who thought breeding their dogs would be a fun way to make some money??? If you love your Jack and would like another like him. You have a much better chance of accomplishing this by simply going back to his breeder and getting another puppy, than by casting the 'breeding dice'!

[Foley42]

Everyday I'm becoming more and more passionate about backyard breeders, puppy mills, and animal shelters. There are numerous CCers that feel the same way. If you've EVER been in the pet forum you should have known this wasn't the place to ask for backyard breeding info.

At this point, I have at least 5 puppies spoken for.
<snip>
By the time we are ready to even start the breeding process, we will be living in a much larger home.
So by the time you are ready to start breeding how many people won't want the puppies anymore? Then what?

[ejs]

OP: you can just skip over this post because it will be more stuff you don't want to hear, but I'm posting it in case there is someone else who is considering breeding her pet.

First, there is no AKC breed called the Jack Russell Terrier. It is called the Parson Russell Terrier.

The AKC lists responsible breeding steps. http://www.akc.org/breeders/resp_breeding/index.cfm
Before anyone considers breeding their dog, I suggest they read those to get a reality check. I was going to list all the highlights, but it was too difficult to narrow it down - all of the points are important.

Here's a link to some more questions to answer: http://www.learntobreed.com/questions.html

[jesvet]

charliezangel,

It makes me sad that you are refusing to at least acknowledge or consider what everyone is trying to say. If this many people, disparate people from all over the country, are telling you this is a bad idea, then maybe, just maybe, you might want to think about it?

I could easily tell you all about pregnancy and breeding and birthing, but I'm choosing not to because I think if you aren't committed enough to do some research on these most basic of things, then you really shouldn't be breeding. Having another backyard breeder help you out isn't really what I had in mind when I suggested finding an experienced Jack Russell fancier.

I just spent an hour talking to owners who did what you are contemplating, breeding their dogs without thinking it through. They tie my techs up for hours with questions they should know the answers to and when the bitch didn't lactate and they realized they were going to need to bottle feed or even tube feed 8 pups every 3 hours around the clock, they asked if a foster group would take them. Just for a few weeks, so they could have them back after to sell them. They didn't like the answer.

If someone comes on the board and says, "How do I strangle my child?" they can't expect people to just answer the question. Not that this is homicide, but you're considering doing something that the vast majority of people, experienced or no with the technicalities of breeding, disagrees with. You don't have to be an animal activist, just someone who reads the news or goes to the shelter, to know the consequences of backyard breeding.

[charliezangel]

Maybe this is just an issue of everyone reading what they want to read. If that's the case, you all need to wake the hell up and realize that not everyone wil agree with all of your opinions. And not everyone is going to believe exactly the way you do.

I have stated SEVERAL times that I appreciate the opinions and the advice of the peopple who have posted and that I will be taking EVERYTHING into consideration before we do anything. We haven't started the process yet and we still have a lot to do before we can.

charliezangel,

It makes me sad that you are refusing to at least acknowledge or consider what everyone is trying to say. If this many people, disparate people from all over the country, are telling you this is a bad idea, then maybe, just maybe, you might want to think about it?


This is what I'm talking about. I never said I thought you all were crazy and i wasn't listening to a word you were saying. I am reading the words of every post and have acknowledged almost every single one. I do understand what you all are saying and I AM going to look into everything that has bee posted here before doing anything.


Quote:
Most of these pups would be going to famil for free
Oh sweet monkey...let me re-state what PP have said: PETFINDER.COM

There's lots and lots and lots (um, I think we've determined thousands) of JRTs on there. And, they are more or less free! What luck! You're family members get a dog and you don't have to figure out how dogs "do it!"

What i don't understand is what gives people the license to be so damn rude. Do you really think I don't know how a puppy is made?? Oh, you mean, the stork doesn't bring them in a little sack. Screw you. My main question is what is the safest way to get the dogs to mate. I don't know if I should be in the room, if we should have them together only a certain time during the day. This was what i had questions about.

I never put any of you down, i was never disrespectful. And Enlarging the # of pets on petfinder does nothing for me. I saw it the first time it was typed, and i also went there myself. And of course, that is another thing I will take into consideration.

I love my animals very much and would do anything for them. I have 3 rescued cats and my JRT is my life. When we move into a bigger house, we are planning on fostering strays while they find homes, we are already starting to look into training. To suggest that I am out to harm animals is completely absurd.

I HAVE been around these boards for a long time. In fact, I've been here since the beginning. One of the biggest things I've learned is that people here no problem attacking others to get their point across...even when an OP has made it clear that point has been made and understood.

[Lanapoo]

Obviously I'm coming to this discussion a little late. But here is my experience growing up with a mother who shows and occasionally breeds dogs. You are describing becoming a back yard breeder and I'm sorry, but you sound very ignorant.

Here is an example of a true breeder who is out to better the breed. My mother had show people begging her to breed her champion golden retriever bitch so they could get a puppy. After doing some follow up eye clearances it was discovered that our dear Gracie had a cateract in one eye. This fact may not have hindered a back yard breeder but to my mom that meant that Gracie would not be bred. Instead, my mom spayed her and she became an adored pet. THAT is a responsible breeder. THAT is someone who is out to better the breed.

The thing is, every champion bitch that is bred to a champion dog will still produce a pet quality (meaning not show quality) puppy in the litter. Believe me, you don't need to make MORE pet quality dogs. There are quite enough already. That you would willingly pass on defects from parents who are not sound and do not have any health clearances does not say much about your motivations.

I'm not out to offend anyone but I feel very strongly about this and I hope you rethink your choice.

ETA: I realize that you are not asking us whether it is okay in your original post. But I cannot and will not give advice on how to bred two dogs who I don't think should be bred. It's not right and I won't contribute to something I believe is wrong.

[ejs]

I always find it interesting when someone accuses others of being rude, yet is rude herself. Anyway.....

people are responding strongly and repeating themselves because you haven't really answered any questions.

People asked why you want to breed your dog, but you haven't given an answer to that. PinkMartini posted a bunch of questions, but you didn't answer the majority of them. I posted links to a bunch of questions; can you answer those?

Nobody has accused you of wanting to harm animals. You said that you have taken EVERYTHING (your caps) into consideration, but it appears that you haven't. If you had, you would know how to get the dogs to mate.

That's great that you've rescued cats and are considering fostering. I'm not sure what you meant when you said you're looking into training. Are you considering becoming a trainer? I'm sure it's not that you're looking into training classes for your own dog because, as a responsible dog owner, I'm sure you've already taken your dog to training classes.

If you want to breed your dog, more power to you. Talk to professionals about it. Go to the AKC site. Go to dog shows and talk to breeders. I believe Gayle has experience breeding dogs, as does Pink Martini.

It's just frustrating for those of us who are tired of seeing all the dogs in shelters, on sites such as Petfinder, with rescue organizations, etc. to read about someone who wants to breed their dog just for kicks.

[jesvet]

Maybe this is just an issue of everyone reading what they want to read. If that's the case, you all need to wake the hell up and realize that not everyone wil agree with all of your opinions. And not everyone is going to believe exactly the way you do.

Respectfully, you should take your own advice.

I have stated SEVERAL times that I appreciate the opinions and the advice of the peopple who have posted and that I will be taking EVERYTHING into consideration before we do anything. We haven't started the process yet and we still have a lot to do before we can.

You said once you are taking this all into consideration then you go and argue every single thing someone has said to you.



This is what I'm talking about. I never said I thought you all were crazy and i wasn't listening to a word you were saying. I am reading the words of every post and have acknowledged almost every single one. I do understand what you all are saying and I AM going to look into everything that has bee posted here before doing anything.

Where did I say you thought everyone was crazy?


What i don't understand is what gives people the license to be so damn rude. Do you really think I don't know how a puppy is made?? Oh, you mean, the stork doesn't bring them in a little sack. Screw you. My main question is what is the safest way to get the dogs to mate. I don't know if I should be in the room, if we should have them together only a certain time during the day. This was what i had questions about.

I never put any of you down, i was never disrespectful. And Enlarging the # of pets on petfinder does nothing for me. I saw it the first time it was typed, and i also went there myself. And of course, that is another thing I will take into consideration.

You just said "screw you" and called someone a "you know what". No one here is being ruder than you are. Honestly.

If this thread is that awful, just step away and it will die.

[jnettie]

Charliezangel,

I think we've all made the mistake of posting a question, or even just a comment, on this board and received a good spanking. Heck, just go over to the Universal Heath Care thread and you can see my most recent virtual spank. It's hard to suck it up and realize that you've been wrong, and coming back and posting over and over that you have been gracious, when in reality you have not, isn't helping.

You've had two breeders and a veterinarian tell you this is a bad thing to do. It's time to realize that it is.

[jajacobsen]

As many people here know, I have two pure bred weimarners, which I think are just the greatest dogs EVER.

Because we have littermates, one male and one female, who live in such close proximity (sleep in same kennel every night by their own choice), and because the female was not within the breed standards (perfect conformation, but grew too tall for a female), we had the female spayed at 4 months.

Like CA, I sorta naively thought it might be nice to breed the male. He's papered, an excellent example of his breed, and definitely high pet standard (AKC Canine Good citizen certificate, etc.) He has an extremely gentle nature, and unlike many weims, low prey instinct, which makes him a great household pet. He also is extremely intelligent (too intelligent, at times). Surely, adding his chracteristics to the gene pool of weims would be a good thing?

No, not really.

I started looking into this whole breeding thing. Back in the 50s and 60s, my mom and my grandmother bred and showed dogs, and really seemed to enjoy it and had some marvelous, award winning pets.

Ummm, no. That's really not how it all works any more. I have definite ethical problems with the AKC and RKC with their promulgation of "breed standards" which have actually deformed certain breeds after several generations. Some breeds of bulldog cannot deliver vaginally due to teh extremely large head/narrow pelvis which is considered desirable. So all such dogs have to deliery by c section. What happens to teh poor dog that doesn't get the benefit of such assistance? I want no part of that or any activity related to it.

And then I started thinking about what would be the real benefit. Money? Stud fees are really very little, since Samson is not a champion. More dogs? There are enough weims in the US that there is a diverse gene pool (unlike 25or so years ago when there were actually very few breedable males here in the US.)

One look at the shelters and rescure societies and there are MORE than enough dogs available for anyone, even purebred weims off loaded by people fro whom teh words "breed is extremely high energy - needs significant daily exercise or may become destructive or neurotic" clearly were not taken seriously.

At the time we adopted Samson and Delilah, I was very conflicted about buying purebreds rather than adopted dogs from a shelter. However, long before we met each other, coincidentally both DH and I had always wanted a dog of this breed, but never adopted one because as single persons, we felt we would be bad dog parents. After we were married and owned a home with a large yard, thimgs were very different.

So DH and I talked about it and he pointed out that, to him, buying a breed upon which we had our hearts set was sort of like choosing to have your own child , rather than adopting an older, hard to place child. Still I have a huge amount of guilt every time I pass the unadopted pets at PetSmart.

So we have an agreement that we got our purbreds ONCE. And then after Samson and Delilah pass away (weims live 12-16 years), we woudl always adopt shelter animals. Even if we decide to stick with weims I'll get rescue ones and deal with their issues (because I do seem to understand - and connect with - this breeds and its quirks). But honestly, I think I would love a couple of pound puppies just as much. Our two cats are shelter cats and we love them very much.

So I can see how the OP might think this is a good idea. But honestly, it really, really isn't. And the amount of work and expense is so significant, the only person I can see it benefitting is that other breeder. Honestly, if you are going to give most of the pups to family, go to a JRT rescue group and get them JRT puppies. Because I swear there are hundreds of such pups evrywhere, and why should they die just because you feel the need to breed your dog? What does it benefit?

CA - I'm not trying to be harsh here, and I am tryng to look at this from your viewpoint, but breeding dogs is really not a good idea. Please don't be defensive but try to reconsider your position. I'm sorry you didn't get teh help and advice you wanted but teh fact that you were even asking such questions really signals to me - and others - that you should not be doing this.

[villanelle75]

If that's the case, you all need to wake the hell up and realize that not everyone wil agree with all of your opinions.
...

What i don't understand is what gives people the license to be so damn rude. ... Screw you.
...
I never put any of you down, i was never disrespectful.



Lol!! This post is hilarious!!!


I love my animals very much and would do anything for them. I have 3 rescued cats and my JRT is my life. When we move into a bigger house, we are planning on fostering strays while they find homes, we are already starting to look into training. To suggest that I am out to harm animals is completely absurd.

I HAVE been around these boards for a long time. In fact, I've been here since the beginning. One of the biggest things I've learned is that people here no problem attacking others to get their point across...even when an OP has made it clear that point has been made and understood.

If what everyone has posted had truly been understood, then you would no longer be considering breeding, so while you may think you've made ti clear that you understand, what you have actually made clear is that you just don't get it. You say you love animals, and JRTs, and I am sure that you do. But if you truly want to help the breed, you'll find rescue animals- animals that will otherwise die- for your family members, rather than making more dogs when there are animals in shelters in a life or death search for homes.

You mentioned wanting to foster rescues down the road. This is a wonderful idea and is a way you can help the JRT breed. I know it sounds wonderful and exciting, but breeding does the opposite of that. In addition to creating more dogs when there are so many in need already, unless breeding is done very very carefully, it can also lead to disease and deformation in other animals by passing on bad genes. When hardcore breeders match up a bitch and stud, they not only make sure both animals are free from "bad genes" by looking not only at the potential "parents', but at their entire family history as well, they also match them up to make sure that they will most likely combine to make healthy, strong puppies. This is very much both a science and an art, and should not be taken on by someone without the proper knowledge of both aspects of it. And proper knowledge can't be gained by reading a couple of books, posting on CC, and talking to another person whose practices sound questionable as well.

I don't think you are bad person for wanting to breed your dog. Clearly, many people want the same thing. But honestly, it really is a bad idea. I'm sorry, because I know you are excited about it, but it is a bad idea. Now that you have more information and you know better, you can choose to do better. Please do.

[gayle]

First of all charlizeangel, before I comment, I want you to know that I AM an experienced breeder. I bred and showed English Springer Spaniels for twelve years during which time I produced 12 breed champions from 6 litters, and one of those champions was the top obedience springer in the nation, 4 years in a row.

Those sort of statistics don't happen randomly. They were the product of tremendous study, rigorous health checks and certifications, using absolutely superior examples of the breed, fully understanding how genetic traits replicate, and what needed to be avoided, knowing how to strengthen good genes, asking for alot of help from knowledgable people in the breed, finding exceptional homes for my puppies, and also knowing what to do in an emergency during delivery.

Pink Martini posed some VERY important questions. To which I will add a few.
Do you know what the heritable defects in your breed are? Are you prepared to test for them, and NOT breed should your dog be affected?

Do you fuilly understand that alot of scary and danegrous things can occur during a whelping. Are you prepared to deal with say a breech birth, or an umbilical cord which has wraped itself around a puppies neck? Are you prepared to deal with any post partum issues?

For example, a bitch I once leased had a smoothe delivery of 11 healthy pups. Within 24 hours the bitch developed severe mastitis and had to have her teats lanced and bandaged. Needless to say, she was unable to nurse, and I literally did nothing for the next 6 weeks but make formula and bottle feed 11 puppies, round the clock. Are you prepared for such a scenario? It's not an uncommon one.

Do you fully understand the pedigrees you are working with, and how they may or may not double up on genetic traits?

Are you prepared to put a puppy down should it be born with a debilitating condition, such as a cleft pallet?

In addition, as previous posters have stated, breeding a litter is VERY expensive. Even experienced breeders rarely make any money, and usually lose ALOT.

There are so many things to know and be aware of when breeding, that it would be almost impossible to note them all here.

Are you prepared to take a puppy back, should the receivers of the pup change their minds?

I must re-stress the question that was stated before:

Are these animals absolutely top examples of the breed? If they are not, you truly should not breed them.

My current canine love, a Goldie is not a superior example fo the breed. I would have loved to have bred her as she is incredibly sound, passed all her health clearances with flying colors (she's even OFA excellent which is almost unheard of in Goldens), and has the best temperament of any dog I have ever known.

However, I elected to spay her, because, as an experienced breeder I knew I would be breeding her for myself, for my own selfish love of her, and NOT to better the breed, which she can't do as she is not an exceptional example of the breed, and she has a very weak pedigree.

I am not in any way trying to attack you or put you down. Just trying to share the realities of what you are considering, and to ask that you reconsider doing this breeding.

[kemorr]

I think the most pointed question that you need to answer - which you haven't - was the very first one posted. WHY do you want to breed your dog? You've said it's not for the money - because you've said you're going to give these pups away to family and we know it's not to improve the JRT breed, as you don't have a health checked champion, so I'm guessing the answer is because you think it will be fun and cute to have puppies.

Let me tell you - it's not fun, it's HARD work and it will either cost you a lot of money (if you do as you should and visit a vet frequently for the mother and the pups) or potentially cost you lives (if you skip the whole vet thing). Yeah, pups are cute, but not at 3 am when they've pooped all over your new house and you're up for the 10th time tube feeding them because your bitch died giving birth.

Am I breeder? Nope, but I'm a vet who once worked in an area where EVERYONE bred their dog, so I have a lot of experience with the really sad ramifications of people who think it'll be fun. Just don't do it.... And, if you love your dog (which you claim to do), you won't.

[snowzilla]

Charliezangel,


You've had two breeders and a veterinarian tell you this is a bad thing to do. It's time to realize that it is.

Add another one to that. While I am not a breeder, my ILs are (they've been showing dogs for years), and have been for over 30 years. This is a bad idea, plain and simple. So uh, screw me or whatever, because I too hold a dissenting opinion, and I'm really saddened by your reaction to what so many of us are trying to tell you.

[Chile]

So you're not doing it for money. And you really haven't said why breeding your two dogs would be for the betterment of the breed, so WHY EXACTLY DO YOU WANT TO BREED? What are your reasons for breeding?

[AlisonCO]

I am not going to touch the original ? because both of my boxers are neutered, but I wanted to tell you about the experience I had with a well repected and professional breeder that I became friends with while buying our puppy. The breeder we worked with had a 2 year waiting list for her family pet puppies and we were very lucky to get one. After getting to know here for the 10 weeks that she had our puppy, we learned some very interesting things - mainly that she never actually made money and often just broke even with each litter.

I know that you said that you are going to give your potential pups away for free, but I just wanted to share that it is possible for you to have to shell out some $ for unforseen issues that come up as well as share with you what a real professional breeder will do. Our breeder had 5 pups in our litter so technicaly she made $3500 but one died after she spent almost $1000 trying to save her. So now she is at $1800 (3500-700-1000.) Then she refunded us all $50 after we had our pups neutered so that was $200 - now she is down to $1600. She has the vet out twice in the 10 weeks the pups are with her for tail docks and check ups (she did all of the vaccines herself) - each visit was $125 including a check up for the mommy dog - so there is $250, now we are down to $1350. Finally she has a full heart workup done on each of the 4 pups at 24 months old to check for issues so that she can continue to keep a record of the genetic issues in her lines - each workup was $300 - so now she has made $150. I imagine that she probably spent $150 during the 10 weeks the pups are with her on food, vaccines, supplements, extra calories for the mama who is nursing, laundry for all of the pooping peeing dogs etc. I thought that it was incredibly interesting and eye opening to see how truly dedicated and professional breeders work.

[EJH]

If you've already got 5 puppies spoken for, you'd be doing the dogs a bigger favor if you directed those people to petfinder, where they can get one of the 2,077 JRT that are available there.


Well said, Beth.

We work in dog rescue. I will never undertand the need to breed just because you want to. Really, WHY do you feel the need to breed your dog?

So you say you've got families lined up.

Will you, when the dog just "isn't what they had in mind" or "didn't housebreak at 13 weeks old so there must be something wrong with it" - have a policy where you have them bring the dog back and you assume all responsibilities for that dog? Or will you just assume they'll take care of it on their own (which may mean dumping the dog in an already overrun shelter).

The last thing this world needs is more dogs. Adopt one of the thousands upon thousands that are living in shelters, just hoping for a good home before it's too late.

[Cricket4]

For everyone's "enjoyment"

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12144953

This story is my shelter's case and rescue. Lt. Mark Timmers rescued these 54 JRT's on June 21st, from a family breeding operation gone out of control. These weren't bad people, just in way over their heads, and didn't realize the scope of caring for the dogs they wanted to create.

The good news - the bulk of these guys are now up for adoption, after 5 weeks of intense care.

The bad news - I go on rescues of this scope once a month. My SO can't even listen to me tell him about my day anymore.

[kam]

So you want to become a backyard breeder (spruce up the wording all you want) and you don't think people would respond negatively?

I agree with MLA - if you researched it thoroughly, I question why you would need to ask a question like that here. It just really sends huge red flags. A responsible breeder would go somewhere with real expertise to get started. Did you really think CC would be the place to go for real expert advice on breeding a JRT? Or PRT as they are called by the AKC? Go on a JRT board (of course, the way you describe things, they might jump all over you too). Or a breeders board (well, they might jump on you as well). Or your vet (although jesvet's reaction would probably give you an indication of how that might go).

Um, good luck on your "research".


So you're not doing it for money. And you really haven't said why breeding your two dogs would be for the betterment of the breed, so WHY EXACTLY DO YOU WANT TO BREED? What are your reasons for breeding?


Christmas gifts? Everyone loves a puppy for Christmas!

[Phen]

Maybe things have changed since the mid-1990s when I bought a JRT from a breeder, but to my knowledge the Jack Russell Terrier Club of America has pretty strict guidelines as to who should breed and what JRTs should be bred, whether for money or not. There's a lot of pride among JRT owners about the breed being carefully bred.

Actually, two minutes of googling and I found that the JRTCA website (http://www.terrier.com/) has this to say about breeding JRTs:
Breeding is risky business, whether you do it for love or money. If you're doing it for love, you risk losing your bitch and her puppies. If you're doing it for money, you stand to lose a bundle. Talk to a few breeders with experience. They'll be able to tell you their personal stories of disasters. If you've ever read a book on Canine Reproduction you'll notice that there's 54 pages on what can go wrong, and only one page on what it's like if everything goes well. The risks are very real, and even if everything goes well initially, there are defects that can show up later, causing the eventual death of the puppies. And then there's the minor defects that won't affect the puppy's chance for a happy life, but will cause a financial loss to the breeder, as a refund or replacement will need to be given to the buyer.

The site has several very enlightening articles on the subject. Check it out, please.

~ phen