German Shepherds

[Maggie8202]

I was wondering if anyone has one and can tell me about them.

I currently have a 4 year old Golden Retiever who is my baby, however she is not muct of a protector. My husband's work truck was burglarized outside our home last week and my sweet little Golden slept though it all. Since we have been talking about getting her a companion, my husband now wants to get a more of a protector breed since Haley barely barks.

My cousin's had white german shepherds growing up and they were really good dogs. I was wondering what your experience has been and what they are like. Golden's are very easy going and very trainable. Are Shepherds the same? Do you think a shepherd and a golden would be a good match in terms of companionship?

I also had seen a few year back a German Shepherd that was shorter and stockier. Supposively it meant that it had German lineage. Do you know anything about that?

Do you have any other suggestions of a more protective breed that would still be a good companion for my Golden?

TIA

[kemorr]

I'm probably going to insult all the German Shepherd owners on the boards, but my personal opinion on German Shepherds is - stay away! It seems that a very large percentage of the shepherds I come across on a daily basis are just unmanageable dogs. They show a lot of fear aggression - which may be a good trait in a protection only dog, but not so great for a family pet who is also going to be used for watchdog purposes. German Shepherds are also very popular and thus they have a LOT of medical problems. They are extremely susceptible to cancer and often die at a young age from one of the "big three" (hemangiosarcoma, osteosarcoma and lymphoma), are also very susceptible to stomach twisting (GDV), major skin problems, autoimmune diseases (including perianal fistulas) as well as congenital hip and eye problems. I'm sure many people will say "buy from a reputable breeder and you'll avoid these problems" but in my experience, even people who have purchased their dogs from very good breeders experience both temperament and medical difficulties.

If I was looking for a protection dog, I'd actually get a "pit bull". Despite their reputation, I find that inbuilt aggression is actually pretty rare in these dogs (although many are trained to be aggressive due to the type of people who often buy pitbulls) and they're really very sweet most of the time. So long as you get one as a puppy, getting along with your Golden shouldn't be an issue. They're smart and easily trainable and have very, very low susceptibility to disease. The second breed I'd recommend would be a Doberman. They have a higher disease susceptibility than pitbulls, but way, way lower than the Shepherd. They are also, in my experience, calmer, smarter, less naturally aggressive and easier to train - really lovely dogs. They do have the "scare" factor though and can be good watchdogs.

BTW - if you do end up getting a shepherd - I'd go with the regular black and tan kind, the white ones seem to be even worse personality wise than the black and tan ones.

I appologise to all shepherd owners out there, this is just based on my daily experience with other people's sheperds.

[Fenway]

I've grown up with shepards, and if they are well bred and properly trained, they are great dogs. The one we had growing up was named Muffin. She would walk my brother and I to the bus stop every day, and go back and meet us at the end of the day. She went everywhere in the neighborhood with us. If we were at a friends house, she would patiently wait for us right outside the door. My mom never worried if we had Muffin with us. She was well trained. She would obey the basic commands from anyone in the family, and she never had to be leashed. Unfortunately, Muffin died at the age of 11. She was staying at my uncle's house while my parents were on vacation, and she died in his care. I was so young that I don't know exactly what it was that killed her.

After Muffin, we got Vicky (yeah, that's what happens when you let the kids name the dog.) Vicky was very much like Muffin as far as personality. She died at the age of 13.

Neither Muffin or Vicky had any of those "signature" German Shepard health problems. They were both well bred. Also, neither were ever aggressive towards people, but they sure did put up a good front. Because of the GS reputation, if someone sees a barking GS, they won't mess with you, and GS do have a lot to say. :) I do remember a few times where I was walking with Vicky and was approached by another dog. She always knew the difference between a dog that was coming over to say "hi" and a dog that wanted to attack. She never showed her teeth unless it was the latter situation.

As far as a GS and a GR being a good match, I think as long as they are introduced when the new dog is a pup, you'll be fine. I got a Lab puppy when Vicky was 10, and they ended up the best of friends. Vicky seemed to show Lily the ropes. And whenever Lily would escape and run off, I'd let Vicky out and say, "go get her!" and she'd pin Lily down until I could get her with the leash.
After having GS, then a Lab, my next dog would definitely be a GS. IMO, they are much more trainable, and the puppy stage is much shorter. Lily is almost 6 and she is still in her puppy stage.

I hope that helps. If I think of anything else, I'll post again.

ETA:
BTW - if you do end up getting a shepherd - I'd go with the regular black and tan kind, the white ones seem to be even worse personality wise than the black and tan ones.
I'm not trying to be snarky, but I never understood that concept of how the color of your dog had anything to do with personality. I've heard that Yellow Labs are more high strung, Brown are stupid and Black are calmer. Seriously, that's like saying that because I'm pale, I'm nieve, or because my hair is curly, I'm shy. Its just fur color! (or skin color, or hair texture...)

[Maggie8202]

Thank you for answering my questions.

My husband originally wanted a pit, but just the name scares me. I have heard from many people that they really are teddy bears though, maybe I need to get over being scared of them. I am aware about most of the health problems and I believe Goldens are pretty similar. I don't think we would get a white because our basic reason for getting one is to show people we have a GS leave us alone. I think the whites don't have that same look to scare people.

There is so much to think about and so much to consider. I was looking around and found a breeder in the tristate area that imports GS from Germany and breeds them. They look a little different from the American GS. I wonder if they have a more sound temperment.

I feel like this is such a huge step for us because we be have only known Labs and Goldens growing up. None of them had a mean bone in their body. My DH did have a black lab that was a good protector and actually attacked a Rottie when my DH and our golden was under attack in the front yard. I had run in the house screaming and she pushed me down and ran to save them. The rottie actually ran away, and even though my dh, golden and lab had some bites it could have been a lot worse. Unfortunately she got old and has passed. I don't think I could count on another lab being as protective. Labs also have such a long and terrible puppy period. They are lucky they are so cute.

Anyways, thank you for giving me some things to think about and discuss with my dh.

[Maggie8202]

I'm not trying to be snarky, but I never understood that concept of how the color of your dog had anything to do with personality. I've heard that Yellow Labs are more high strung, Brown are stupid and Black are calmer. Seriously, that's like saying that because I'm pale, I'm nieve, or because my hair is curly, I'm shy. Its just fur color! (or skin color, or hair texture...)

My mom is actually waiting for her yellow lab puppy who was just born. After talking to many breeders supposively the black have better genes, then comes the yellows, and the chocolates do not have strong genes and that's why they are supposively crazy. This was the belief of one of the breeders my mom had talked to. I have no clue how much truth it holds. I also don't understand how a color could determine personality either. My golden is very dark in color- almost red. The vet has made comments to be about her being high strung like irish setters because she is so dark. And she is not high strung to me.

[jesvet]

Color doesn't determine personality per se, but there are some well documented genetic problems that are associated with color*- because the genes that control both traits are very close to each other on the chromosomes. A well known example would be the association between white boxers and deafness. In the dog world, where inbreeding is pretty common in order to replicate a desired trait, undesired traits pop up a lot too. Purebreds as a whole are at higher risk for genetic defects due to this.

I have my own opinions on dog breeds based on my experience, but it's limited to what I see every day. I've asked Gayle to pop in when she has a chance- as an experienced dog breeder she has tons of information about breeds and may have some better insight for you.

My own 2 cents:
1. Make sure you are getting a dog because first and foremost you want another dog, not because you want a protector. Based on what you said about wanting a companion for your Golden, it sounds like you are in it for the right reasons.

2. Remember that no breed is a guarantee of behavior, especially if you choose to get a puppy where their personality really hasn't come out yet. There are wussy Rottweilers and nasty aggressive Goldens out there (as a matter of fact, my Golden- while not aggressive- is a a very effective guard dog. Go figure.) Picking a dog with a solid pedigree -sounds like you are already researching breeders- will help increase he chance of getting a dog with a solid temperament.

3. Especially with the assertive breeds that you are researching, be ready to commit to training. It's so key with these guys, both for your relationship and for everyone's safety.

It sounds like you pretty much get all of that, but since there are others reading along I figured I would put that out there.

I personally would be less likely to recommend a pit bull in your situation, because as much as I personally like them, IME they are great with people but more prone to inter-dog aggression. Again, this is a trend and there are thousands of pits who live in perfect harmony with kids, cats, and other dogs, but you have to choose carefully. I have not had great experience with Rottweilers either- I find their temperaments to be unpredictable- but I also don't work with particularly good examples of the breeed, or with very responsible owners, so that is just my little bit of experience.

I like GSDs and Dobies in general for what you are looking for- I have found the ones with solid background and good training are really exceptional working dogs who tend to bond to one person in the family. And on a personal note if you do get a Dobie, please don't crop his ears! They are so much cuter with their natural ears! ;)

*As an aside, and I mention this only because I have a very red Golden as well, I was unaware of them coming so dark until I adopted him. Most of the Goldens I've ever seen have been gold to pale blonde. I can't remember if this came from Gayle or from the person running the rescue, but what I was told is that there are two main Golden lines- those bred for hunting and those for show. The hunting Goldens are very dark, and in the show ring the trend was for the pale dogs so they ended up getting blonder with time. Just an interesting factoid.

[t3h_wookiee]

GSDs are wonderful dogs. I grew up with at least 2 always around, fully Schutzund trained. All of the GSDs that my family owned over the years were of true German stock, and thus were smaller than the typical GSD you see in the US. Just like with any other dog, you have to be careful about the breeder that you get your dog from, good breeding makes all the difference in the dog.

Good, solid training is also needed once you do get your dog. I highly recommend Schutzund training.

I have many good memories of my puppies, especially Bear. He was trained for my dad by a canine trainer with the police department, but around us kids, he was the biggest, most lovable lump of fur you'd ever meet. :) But you didn't mess with us at all. Somebody tried to jump over our fence one day when I was 8, while my siblings and I were playing soccer, with Bear playing along with us. He managed to get across the yard and a bite into the guy's leg before any of us even knew what was going on. The cops ended up catching him a few blocks away.

I love these dogs, and I can't wait until I own a home and can have one again. :)

[Fenway]

Labs also have such a long and terrible puppy period. They are lucky they are so cute.


This made me LOL! It's so true!

[gayle]

I have to agree with jesvet on pretty much every count.

especially this:
"I personally would be less likely to recommend a pit bull in your situation, because as much as I personally like them, IME they are great with people but more prone to inter-dog aggression. Again, this is a trend and there are thousands of pits who live in perfect harmony with kids, cats, and other dogs, but you have to choose carefully. I have not had great experience with Rottweilers either- I find their temperaments to be unpredictable- but I also don't work with particularly good examples of the breeed, or with very responsible owners, so that is just my little bit of experience."

Unless you are buying from a top-of-the-line breeder, who has spent years documenting temperaments in their bloodlines, breeding towards stable temperaments, offers a temperament guarantee, and are willing to pay a bundle for the dog, I would stay away from Pitts. Come to think of it, I'd apply this to any purebred breed. However, it's doubly important when you have issues of potential misplaced aggression.

The ONLY dogs I have personally ever had agression problems towards me are GSD's. I have been around dogs all my life, showed dogs for twelve years, and associated with many breeders of different breeds; and the only times I have been bitten by a dog, both were GSD's.

My personal favorite of the working breeds are Rotties, but I have been blessed to know exceptionally wonderful ones, who were bred by dedicated and ethical breeders. They were instinctively terrific guard dogs with outsiders, but gentle lambs with their canine and human families.

Honestly however, the work that goes into training a dog to guard properly, and the potential danger if you don't get a dependable one, makes me want to suggest getting an alarm system instead. Guard/working breeds, even well-bred ones, can be too assertive, and at the very least, highly intimidationg to people, children and other, softer tempered dogs.

If you want a dog who is simply an alarm system, I might well suggest a Springer Spaniel (the breed I used to breed and show). Though a smaller dog, they have a great deal of moxie, are smart and alert, are pretty fearless in most situations, and will bark their heads off if they feel anything is a threat. Plus, being a Sporting dog (as are Goldies) they have a certain "kinship" with other sporting dog personalities.

I am not an authority by any means on working breeds, so can only share what I have observed along the way. Someone who IS an authority, and might be able to help you make a wise decision, would be my old friend Dany Canino.

Dany has been a professional Obedience Trainer for over 30 years, was also an all-breed show dog handler, bred Rottweilers, and GSD, and is still an all-breed licensed judge. When she was an all-breed handler, she specialized in Working breeds, so I am sure she could offer you a much better, in depth perspective of the various breeds and what might work best in your situation. And, still being quite active in the dog show world, she could potentially direct you to very dependable, consistent and ethical breeders.

Here's a link to her website, and you can write to her through it
http://www.caninodogtraining.com/meetdany.htm

If she asks who recommended you, tell her Gayle Hutchison (that was my name back in the day,LOL)

Lastly, I agree with the others who have said whatever working breed you decide on, make sure you get a puppy and raise it with your Golden. Bringing in an adult dog, with a well established alpha personality, could be exceedingly hard on your Goldie baby.

[Maggie8202]

Lots more good information. I thank you. I feel that I am going into this so blind.

The primary reason for us getting a second dog is because we are going to be moving into a house soon. Normally my golden Haley goes to my MIL for daycare when I work because she does not like to stay home alone. My MIL has another Golden and they are very happy together. Once we get the house I would like for Haley to stay home and not depend on my MIL. We think she would be fine if we got her a friend. I truely think she sometimes gets loney and would benefit from companionship. We were very ready to call up her breeder and get another golden (because I adore the breed, but since the burglary think it may be a better idea to look into another breed. Our biggest concern is Haley's wellbeing and I am already reading up on how to introduce new dogs etc.

I was just reading about Schutzund training and when I told my husband he was very interested in this. I am going to see how this works and if I can find locations locally. Haley was so easy to train and honestly I did very little with her. She just picked up on commands the first time I presented them to her. I do think that proper training would be a must for a GS.

One of my concerns with a dobbie was the cropped ears. I really don't like cropped ears, but am happy to hear it doesn't have to be done. I am going to look for some pictures of dobbies without cropped ears. My SIL has a boxer without cropped ears and she really is the cutest thing.

Also interesting about the dark goldens. Haley's dad came from Europe and had done all those things with agility training and such. He was very dark and was a very smart dog. He was not show, but had all these awards of his training. This sounds probably that he was from the hunting type lines.

Thanks again for you input.

[gayle]

Maggie8202,

Dogs do like companionship, especially Goldens who are loving and bond deeply. I have always been a believer in having dogs in pairs. They learn from each other, become friends, and have company when we humans can't be around.

If I was in your position, what I honestly would do is put in a good alarm system for my home, and then get another dog as a companion for Haley. I would get another Goldie, but then I utterly adore the breed and will probably never have anything else!

[Maggie8202]

Gayle thanks for being so honest. One option is to just get another golden pup and an alarm system! This was going to be the original plan, and still may be, but I want to learn about GS and other breeds just to make sure I am making the right decision.
Thanks for that link. It will be very helpful. I think it is hard to find a good breeder just by surfing online.

[fuzzy]

I had a GSD growing up and absolutely loved that dog. I've been wanting another ever since he passed. That said, we had him when I was very young and I know my mom put a lot of work into this dog to make sure his protective tendencies were managed. This wasn't a dog you could take to a series of puppy classes and then forget about. He required daily work -- know going into it that this would be required and if you can't provide it, you may have a bigger problem than when you started.

On a personal note, I just have to say that having a protective dog is a double-edged sword. Yes, it is nice in some respects. And, yes, I know that my dog would have to be killed before anyone came into the house uninvted. It does make me feel secure, on one level. However...it can be so damn exhausting.

I just have a little 50 lbs. lab mix, but she is exceptionally protective, particularly of me. The only time I can truly relax is when we are alone. Any time we have guests, I have to be on high alert and make sure she is behaving. I ask friends not to hug me until things have settled down because I do believe she will bite them. She gets very uneasy when anyone, aside from my husband, touches me. If we have friends over and she is sleeping and someone makes a loud nosie or drops something, her first reaction is to lash out and make sure I'm ok...and find out what happened later. I don't take her for walks in areas where there are lots of people (I'd love to have a dog I can walk around the farmer's market with, but I don't dare with her) and when we are on our walks/runs, if someone approaches us, I make sure we are way off to the side. Most of the time, I go running at 5:00am to avoid people. Having contractors or delivery people stop by is a massive headache - I can handle her, but it takes lots of planning and lots of effort on my part. We take our garbage to the transfer station -- the guys there will go give her a treat if it's just my husband, but if its me, they won't even come near the car.

I love her and am glad we have her, but its taken a LOT of research and even more work to manage her "protective" nature and I'll admit there are days when I wish we had an easy-going, goofy, laidback dog who specialized in love rather than one who thinks she's a secret service agent on paws.

[maxandmolly]

We had a doggie jail dog that looked just like a German Shepherd but was smaller. Hmm, maybe she was from that German stock someone mentioned?
Anyway, she was about six months old when she came home to our Golden/Chow (who is that red color mentioned, but we assumed that was due to the Chow half) mix who was a year or so at the time. Most people, when the dog chews everything in the house, try training them. My mom went and got another dog instead.
Within an hour, Baby & Rusty were the best of buddies, joined at the hip, he quit chewing, and she taught him how to jump the fence and go on adventures. Unfortunately, she died rather young, of what we now think was cancer but no one could figure out in time to help her.
As for protection, Rusty, who wouldn't know how to bite you if you put your arm in his mouth, has a hell of a ferocious bark and has sent more than one door to door missionary scurrying to the next house.
And Maggie, our 50lb. Beagle mix, is the best. protector. ever. Every time my s-niece is over, she patrols from room to room, inspects her a couple times per hour, and barks like a madwoman if anyone dares walk by the house while the baby is there.
Rusty, meanwhile, wants to lick the baby until she's covered head to toe in doggie drool.

[Maggie8202]

Thank you fuzzy for bringing up the fact of relaxing with guests. We do entertain a great deal in our small apartment and am sure that we would entertain even more with a large house. My golden has to kiss and hug everyone that enters and will not leave you alone until she gets that! Sometimes she will get rather annoying, but will settle down. I was thinking about what it would be like with a GS and guests. This is a great point I am going to dicuss with my DH.

As an aside, last night my dh and I were waiting in the driveway for some friends to arrive so we could go out to dinner. (My apartment was a mess and I didn't want our friends to come in and see it!) So my husband was playing around with the garbage cans and made a loud boom. Well Haley did start barking!! I was sooo surprised. I think it was because she was actually awake and on alert because we just left her, but I was very proud. If only she could be on alert more often!

Thanks everyone for giving some great words of advice to think about.

[t3h_wookiee]

In regards to guests, I know with Bear that he was fine with anyone who came to the house that we let in. Not sure if he was just able to pick up on emotions and could tell it was ok, or what it was. But he never had any problem with guests. He'd usually go lay down and sleep. lol.

[mjfish]

I own a Rottie, and the breed is absolutely wonderful! Fantastic with kids and people in general. However, it is a WORKING breed and therefore is not an appropriate pet for everyone. I know, it gets a lot of bad press, but this is a breed you need to put time into...not just one you buy, teach it sit and down, and that's it. They require a job to do, whether it's training them for years (ob, shutz, agility, etc.), or bringing in the mail, or pulling a cart full of garden tools around the yard...well, you get the picture. They are not couch potatoes.

You see, you need to know what the breed was originally bred for, what traits the breeder is trying to bring out, etc. Do you get a Rottie if you're looking for a Golden personality? No. But I absolutely love the Rottie traits and temperment -- they are intensely loyal, a great companion, and they are incredibly smart (too smart for some people :p ), and it is what I was looking for in a breed of dog. GSDs are a working breed as well since they are used for herding among other jobs. You need to be willing to accept the breed for what it is and not mold it into something it's not. I'm not saying this very clearly, but hopefully you get the gist of what I mean. Working breeds need as much (if not more) mental exercise as physical exercise, moreso than many other breeds.

All that being said, you want the new dog to bond with you and not your Golden. If you get a dog with a working background, you will definitely need to work to keep the bond with you and to keep the dog mentally and physically challenged.

As for a guard dog, my Rott looks intimidating, but would look to me to protect him rather than the other way around! :p (And honestly, that's the way I think it should be -- if you want protection, get an alarm system.) Like Fuzzy said, a protection dog can be a double-edged sword. Because idiots have "trained" Rotts for "protection" and haven't had a clue, we now suffer lots of BSL (Breed Specific Legislation) trying to force us to get rid of a breed we love. Another thing to consider when getting a Pitt, Rott, and other so-called "vicious" dogs -- aside from BSL, home owners insurance is often hard to obtain, you face a lot of prejudice from others, and even if your dog is the one being attacked by another dog, you will always be the one to blame because of the breed.

And for the record, we have been attacked my more ill-tempered LABS than I can count (and frankly I'm tired of it!). :rolleyes:

Sorry for writing a book! :p

[mjfish]

One more thing that I wanted to add (and then I'll shut up ;) ) is that while GSDs may have health issues, you should be screening breeders that 1) Have had healthy litters and can prove it; 2) Have the proper health certifications for the dam and sire (Rotts do hips, heart, eyes, elbows); 3) Have titled their dogs in conformation, obedience, etc. to show that they are excellent representatives of the breed; 4) Have had litters that have titled; 5) Are not advertising in the paper! :p (Good breeders usually have owners lined up waiting for a puppy from them for sometimes a year or more).

The long and short of it is that yes, GSDs may face some health challenges, but getting one from a good, reputible breeder should help negate some of the risk.

[julietchicago]

We have a beautiful White German Shepherd female and she is absoultely wonderful. She is protective over our home and of our family, yet the biggest lap dog you will ever see. She is VERY loyal and listens extremely well. Also, she was/is very easy to train. She loves little kids and is overall a wonderful dog.

I would highly recommend a german shepherd to anyone looking for a good family dog and protector.

[melandtim]

My DH bred our current GSD and he is amazing. At 11 he is in incredible shape though getting a little arthritic. A pp mentioned their dog not relaxing. Ours is fine as long as we are relaxed and not showing fear. After saying hi he leaves people alone. But anytime someone new drives up or the door bell goes he is right on alert ready to protect.

He is the biggest teddy bear though. My niece likes to sleep on him :p But they are herding dogs and have that instinct to herd things so you have to be careful. We live on a farm so both dogs (the other is a sheltie) have had to learn what they can and cannot herd. The horses and the ducks are not good options :p