Puppy Mills: I'm going to be sick

[Foley42]

I clicked on a CC Ad on the left side of the page and came across this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEt1rkq0Gw4). I knew about puppy mills, but had never seen pictures or videos before.

I am confident to promise that I will never buy a dog from a pet store or even a person that I don't know well enough that could be involved in a puppy mill.

Pound or rescue league dogs are amazing. I donate monthly to Atlanta Pet Rescue and Adoption (http://www.atlantapetrescue.org/www_ver2/index.htm) where DH and I adopted our first dog. I just feel sick over this. I want it to become more known of in the general public. Suggestions on what else can be done would be greatly appreciated.

[JamBray]

I actually did a speech on this in one of my classes and, although I had known about them already, it was even more heartbreaking when I had to research them further.

What else you could do is get the word out to all of your friends and family, as they might not know about these hell holes. Also, the HSUS has this (http://www.stoppuppymills.org/pdfs/PuppyMillCrueltyFlyer.pdf) flyer that you can post at a local dog park and an online form (http://www.stoppuppymills.org/forms/free_puppy_buyers_guide.html) to request a free puppy buyers guide.

It sickens me that these places exist, but hopefully getting people educated on them and the word out will one day shut them down. :( :mad:

[Lanapoo]

If someone must have a certain breed and want a puppy there are certain things that will let you know if a breeder is really legitimate.

1. Most reputable breeders will have a contract that you must sign saying that you will spay or neuter the dog (if it's a pet quality dog, and most breeders won't sell a show quality puppy to a newbie anyways, if they do then they usually will co-own the dog with you)by a certain age. The last thing a breeder wants is for you to breed a dog that is not up to the standard of the breed. The contract will also specify that you must give the dog back to the breeder if you don't want it anymore so they can find another home for it.

2. Ask for hip (should be OFA 'fair' or better, but I personally would never get a dog whose parents had anything less than OFA 'good'), eye(should have no cataracts), heart (should have no murmurs)clearances on the sire and dam. If they don't have this documentation that these things are healthy on the sire and dam then the dogs should not have been bred in the first place. It makes me so mad when I hear about someone just buying a dog from a pet shop (that's bad enough) and then they are shocked when they have to shell out thousands of dollars to fix a dog with severe hip displaysia.

3. A good breeder will ask about your living situation. How often will you be home to let the dog out? Do you have a fenced in back yard? Etc.

4. Maybe not all good breeders recommend this, but they should. My mom would strongly advise anyone with a new puppy to take a puppy class. Novice or not (Mom takes every puppy she has ever had to class) these classes are not just for training they are for socializing your dog to new people, other dogs, and different places. I think it's crucial.

There are so many people who have no idea about these things. My mom shows and very occasionally breeds her dogs (has been in the dog show world for about 30 yrs now) and these are the things she does when she has sold the puppies that were pet quality in a litter (because pretty much every litter, including those that come from champion sire and dams, will have a pet puppy or two). All of her friends in the dog show world are the same way because that is what a good breeder will do. Hopefully this information helps if you want to educate someone who is looking for a puppy.

[Sue]

Also, responsible breeders will have owners lined up for the puppies before the breeding even takes place. And many will request health testing a few years down the road so they know if any issues surface- hips, eyes, heart like Lanapoo mentioned. The BIGGEST tipoff that a puppy is coming from a puppy mill or a BYB is that responsible breeders want to know who their puppy is going to and not just any Joe Schmo off the street.

It's a disgusting practice and I would like to think that most people would be sickened by the conditions these dogs are kept in and what they endure every day. But a lot of people aren't aware and the best thing you can do is educate as many people as you can and not patronize any pet store, even if it's to pick up a toy.

[skyblu]

I agree, it's despicable. I actually had a dream about puppy mills last night after looking at the link here on CC.

It's AWESOME that CC and others are spreading the word. JamBray, I will post that flyer at my dog park. We live in a snooty town and I'm sure a lot of people HAVE to have purebred dogs and might get them from petstores and whatnot. :rolleyes:

We have a purebred Weimie but we adopted him directly from a family trying to place him. Before we found him, we'd been searching only at shelters and rescues.

It makes me so angry and so sad what humans are capable of doing to innocent, helpless animals. I will never, ever, EVER buy a dog from a petstore. In fact, I don't think I'll ever buy a dog, period. There are so many animals already out there who need a home!

[jesvet]

I saw that youtube link too- I knew it wa awful but somehow seeing the video really hit home.

[wendalah]

Question about purchasing pet supplies: We have the boutique chain "Collar & Leash" near our house and they do not sell live animals, plus their pet food prices are comparable to the big chains.

Does anyone know anything (negative) about Collar & Leash? Are they a national chain? I'm having a surprisingly hard time finding info online.

BTW, I do admit our older dog is a pet store dog. He was in a cage for months--nobody wanted to buy him. It breaks my heart to think that there are tons of dogs like him all over pet stores in America. We will always adopt from now on (our second dog is a rescue) and I think our older dog would have likely been dumped at a shelter if we hadn't bought him (hopefully to be adopted to a good family). But sometimes it seems so hopeless that this pet store chain will ever be broken. It really depresses me.

[kemorr]

The pet store puppy mills will never be broken. People take pride in the fact that they paid $1000 and up for their "exotic pure-bred .....-apoo", which is a new and rare breed, just accepted into the CKC or UKC and highly fashionable and a major status symbol. Of course these people don't have the couple of hundred bucks required to properly vaccinate, de-worm and spay/neuter the animal because they spent all their cash on their "super fancy purebred", but that doesn't matter becuse no doubt it will be dead in a few weeks from pneumonia, coccidia, giardia, parvo or distemper anyway.

As long as there are idiots in this world, there will be puppy mills.

Edited to add - oh and if these animals do manage to live, they won't spay/neuter anyway, because after all it is a purebred and they want to breed it. Afterall, they paid $1000+ for the puppy, so by breeding it they can make money, right?

[daener]

We have a rescue beagle (adopted at nearly 2 years old, now he's six) who we are convinced came from a puppy mill orginally. He has so many emotional issues, is clearly overbread (emotional and physical issues) and had a difficult time in the first two homes he was in. Yes, we were his third in two years. He is such a dear but completely freaks out when he's threatened or cornered or afraid in any way. Poor baby, we love him to death and constantly feel bad about what his first few months of life must have been like.

[Foley42]

kemorr: you make some good points, but also don't think we should have the mentality of "puppy mills will always exist, oh well." I think there is more we can do instead of just feeling sorry for these pups.

[jesvet]

California has been quite proactive in this area, and as contentious as it is there is a lot of good coming out of it. If you look at the majority of puppy mills out there they come from a handful of certain states who do not have the same strict rules and enforcement.

My last place of work had us do pre-purchase exams for a local petstore. It was awful. We had to examine the puppies as they came off the plane. The owner stopped using us because we pointed out all the illness we saw and he insisted it was all due to the stress of travel. Many ended up coming down with distemper or parvo. There will always be stupid people, and stupid owners, sure. But getting the word out there, one by one, is still better than nothing! And I do think there is an improvement in awareness out there.

The USDA doesn't have the manpower to enforce animal welfare regulations with regard to puppy mills. Individual states have had better success in this regard. As long as some sap is there with a handful of cash someone else will be standing there to profiteer from it, and let's face it most people are lazy. Pet stores are convenient. I would love it if mall petstores weren't legal, personally. Make people work and do some research if they want a dog.

As of now in my state and some others, it is illegal to sell a dog under 8 weeks of age without a veterinary consent (to reduce the number of young unweaned animals tossed out there.) A bill, AB 1634 (http://www.cahealthypets.com/index7.htm), is in the California legislature that requires pets over 4 months of age to be spayed or neutered unless you follow a very specific protocol (allows for legitimate breeders.) Just a few years ago this would have been unheard of, but people are starting to wake up and talk to their representatives and try to do something. Much to the alarm of some breeding groups, the California Veterinary Medical Asssociation is in support of this bill, which is a HUGE deal.

I live in a border area; if the puppy store supply here dwindles, we'll see more pets from Mexico and from other backyard breeders. We will deal with it as it comes. I'm not fond of backyard breeders but I still find them less abhorrent than puppy mills- while often stupid and profit driven the sheer negligence and abuse is just not in the same category.

[rileyandfredsmom]

Puppy mills are outrageous and disgusting but as long as there are lazy people that don't educate themselves on the breed and breeders, there will be the awful puppymill breeders.

I live in TX and it is rampant here. I am constantly amazed at the lack of knowledge people have about purchasing a puppy. There is a flea market festival here that happens once a month and all of the puppy mills are there. I absolutely refuse to go into the 'animal' area (although I recently heard they have gotten rid of this area and no longer allow the sell of animals :D).

But anyway, one of my friends was going there one weekend and said she was going to get a yorkie. I sat her down and explained what a puppy mill was (she had never heard of it) what they do and how they operate. I implored her to seek out a reputable breeder but her response was that 'she couldn't afford one of those and she really wanted a Yorkie'. I told her to go to a rescue then and she said she wanted a puppy. I sent her pics of yorkie's available for adoption locally, they weren't 'cute' enough. Long story short, she bought her yorkie at the flea market. She said the lady was very nice and wasn't a puppy mill or backyard breeder because she only had a few dogs and told her 'I get her early so we can get the puppies a spot under the shade tree so they won't be hot'. I gave her ten kinds of he!! when she got back. I said a silent prayer the dog would be healthy. Guess what, shock of shocks, she is in the vets office with that dog at least once a month. There is always a medical problem with that dog. It has awful allergies, something is wrong with it's intestines and urinary tract system. It's always one thing or the other...oh and she had something wrong with her leg and had to have surgery on it...the dog is 1 1/2 years old.

Puppy mills are awful, horrid places I wouldn't ever want to see. They make me so sick.

[kemorr]

kemorr: you make some good points, but also don't think we should have the mentality of "puppy mills will always exist, oh well." I think there is more we can do instead of just feeling sorry for these pups.

I don't disagree with you, and I try to educate as many people as possible about puppy mills, but as a pp noted, even well educated people often make the decision to buy from pet stores or backyard breeders. These are people who who are fully aware of the conditions the animals are kept in yet make the decision to purchase the puppy anyway, for whatever misguided reasoning they have. Which is why I agree to the fact that lobbying government and education is important, but I still believe in my heart of hearts of that as long as there are idiots, there will be puppy mills. Maybe not in some states, but definitely in others.

[Hello Kitty]

Edited to add - oh and if these animals do manage to live, they won't spay/neuter anyway, because after all it is a purebred and they want to breed it. Afterall, they paid $1000+ for the puppy, so by breeding it they can make money, right?

I hate that, and I hear that a lot. Especially because we bought a properly bred doberman, and for the first several months even educated people were suprised we were getting her spayed. 'Shame to spend that much on a purebred and not breed her.' DH and I would just go off on them. I just don't think that it's not something people think about or know about, but hopefully people at least get more awareness about proper breeding and what other options there are.

Jesvet, that makes me really sad that you had to work in an environment like that. :(

There's a puppy store in our town, and it literally makes me sick - and in the meantime, our animal shelter has more pets than it can adopt out. :( I would love to stand out there with fliers or something to protest their existence.

[coquelicot]

Here's what so sad about the puppy-mill situation.

A reputable breeder will have stringent guidelines on who can own one of his/her puppies--and, to a certain extent, so will most shelters and rescues. If the person doesn't meet these guidelines, and they want a dog badly enough (and they usually think they do), they'll go somewhere else. What other choice do they have? You got it--a less reputable source such as a puppy mill or backyard breeder. As long as there's a market for these dogs, they'll keep being produced. Once it's no longer profitable, only then will it be shut down.

In rural areas, this is especially a problem. "Good" breeders are usually too far away for someone to justify traveling and spending that kind of money on a dog. And shelters aren't that plentiful. So you gotta go somewhere, right? Plus, in some areas and cultures, speutering is frowned upon. Like it ruins the dog or something. (To which I say "Whatever," but you can't change some people's minds.) So you get a lot of "oops" litters. At least with these, many owners don't try to make money off the litters.

I don't think there's an easy solution to the problem, unfortunately. Puppy mills can be found anywhere. A couple of years ago, a large Maltese puppy mill was shut down in a very affluent area of town. These dogs were pitiful. Lots of inbreeding and hormonal adjustments going on to get the max number of puppies. Lots of health problems, too, as you can imagine. There was a large outcry over that, and I think it brought to light how bad puppy mills and bad breeding can be. Continuing to expose these situations for what they really are is probably the best step to deter people from buying a puppy from these places or pet stores.

[Lanapoo]

Ugh, I just hate that excuse for not spaying or neutering your pet (well, they're purebred). People need to understand that having a purebred dog means NOTHING! Any ol' swaybacked, cowhocked dog can be purebred. The purpose of breeding is to get CLOSER to the standard of the breed, not further away.

[greenbunny]

This is a huge problem in my area; for some reason the southern Amish areas of PA are overrun with puppy mills.

Through rescue work, I've had some conversations with people about the subject and I have heard a couple of over-the-top rescue/shelter stories. They are not frequent, but some shelters seem completely ridiculous in the hoops they make people jump through in order to adopt. Some people have been rejected because both adults worked and the rescue wanted someone home full-time with the animal. It's ridiculous. I can see how someone would get fed up with the process and resort to an easy out like buying from a pet store. I don't think it's a legitimate excuse to support backyard breeders, obviously, but I do wish that those few overzealous rescue groups would not turn people off to the process.

[jesvet]

This is a huge problem in my area; for some reason the southern Amish areas of PA are overrun with puppy mills.

I was wondering about that when I watched the YouTube video. The people looked like they were wearing Amish dress.

I can see how someone would get fed up with the process and resort to an easy out like buying from a pet store. I don't think it's a legitimate excuse to support backyard breeders, obviously, but I do wish that those few overzealous rescue groups would not turn people off to the process.

Good point, that does happen a lot. Springing off that, it kind of is a catch 42- a lot of people (not necesarily the ones you are talking about, but in general) really shouldn't have pets, period. They are the ones who get rejected over and over by rescues and shelters and then end up at the pet store. So you have a bad owner and a poorly bred dog. Utter disaster.

[k&b05]

This too just makes me so sad and sick. How people can do this is beyond me. I will never be able to understand.

This issue hits really, really close to home for us. We were so fortunate to learn a few months ago about a labrador retriever needing a home to a good family. A friend had emailed my DH a picture of her and turns out this friend was also fostering the dog. DH and I had been wanting a lab for a really long time and so we talked about it and decided to go meet her. We fell in love at first sight. We filled out an application through the network we got her from (companion animal network) and were approved a week later. We learned in that week time frame that our dog was dropped off at a shelter three months earlier, tied up to the front door with a box of her puppies right next to her. All of her puppies were adopted away and no one had adopted her and she was about to be euthanized. Thank God this network came in to save her.

We picked up Cassie on a Thursday and took her to a vet to get checked out the next day. Upon doing some simple diagnostic tests, ie. listening to her heart, the vet immediately asked if she was heartworm positive. We knew that she wasn't as she was recently tested and spayed. The vet said that she likely has a heart murmur and would need to undergo some x-rays, ultrasound, etc. to test and find out for sure. We didn't want to put her through all that only just having moved to a new home the night before and also having her spay surgery just three days prior. So, we waited a month and took her back in for tests. X-rays, blood work and an ultrasound all revealed that our precious pup has a heart disorder/murmur called Tricuspid Valve Dysplasia. She's at a level 4 out of 6, with 6 being the worst.

We believe very much that our Cassie dog is a product of a puppy shelter and very likely that she was producing pups from a young age. She's only 2.5 years old and had a litter of puppies last December. And, based on the slow rate in which her nipples went down, it's highly possible that she had a litter even previous to that, which would put her at a really young age to be having puppies.

What's sad too in all this is that all of the owners of her puppies will likely encounter the same thing we have had to with her heart. Most of those puppies will have TVD.

We feel so blessed to have Cassie with us. The picture we saw of her when she was in the shelter in December just broke our heart. She was down to a measly 48 pounds, possibly even a little less than that. She was so under-fed and malnourished. She's now a happy, healthy 65 pound girl and has become such a light in our lives. DH and I just adore her to pieces and spoil her rotten. Knowing what she's gone through, and not knowing a lot still of what her life may have been like early on, we feel like she rightly deserves all of the spoil and love that we can offer. She returns such love back to us. I could just go on and on and gush some more about her. :)

It saddens us to know that her life with us will likely be quite shortened because of her heart condition. We have her today and we just enjoy all of our times with her.

If I could do something to see that puppy mills are put to a stop I would do it in a heartbeat.

[Foley42]

I would love to stand out there with fliers or something to protest their existence.
I thought about doing this too:mad:

[jesvet]

I thought about doing this too:mad:

Whenever I walk by, I usually slow down and make really LOUD comments to whomever I am walking with (usually my daughter)-

"No, we can't look at the puppies. That store is a terrible place and they make them all sick. It would be BAD BAD BAD to buy a dog there" etc. One of these days I'm going to get in trouble. :D

[mgoss]

Foley, thanks so much for starting this discussion on puppy mills. It is animal advocates like you who will help to expose this cruel industry.

As The Humane Society of the United States' blog editor, I wanted to let everyone know that Wayne Pacelle, The HSUS' president and CEO, recently blogged about puppy mills (http://hsus.typepad.com/wayne/2007/06/inspiration_for.html) and a class action lawsuit that was just filed against a notorious puppy dealer in Florida -- Wizard of Claws. This lawsuit includes complaints from more than 100 customers who were sold sick or dying puppies, and deceived about the puppies' origins (you can read more about the suit here (http://hsus.typepad.com/wayne/2007/06/off_to_sue_the_.html)).

You all can help end this cycle of cruelty. If you haven't already, sign our pledge to stop puppy mills (https://community.hsus.org/campaign/stoppuppymills_web2?source=gaba53) -- pledge not to buy your next pet or any pet supplies from retail stores or Internet sites that sell dogs or cats.

Then spread the word. Ask your friends and family to sign the pledge (https://community.hsus.org/campaign/stoppuppymills_web2/forward?source=gaba53). If you know someone who is looking for a dog, direct them to our Puppy Buyer's Guide (http://www.hsus.org/pets/pet_adoption_information/puppy_buyers_guide.html). Share with them the stories of puppy mill dogs (http://www.stoppuppymills.org/survivor_stories.html) -- stories that arrive daily at The HSUS. The new puppy brought home, who became ill and then died shortly after purchase. The mother and father dogs at puppy mills, who are treated like breeding machines, producing litter after litter in a lifetime of confinement.

And if you have a social networking profile, blog or website, post our web banners and badges (http://www.stoppuppymills.org/add_a_banner_to_your_web_page.html), and share our undercover video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEt1rkq0Gw4), which shows what happens inside dog auctions and how dogs end up at puppy mills.

These are just a few ways you can spread the truth about puppy mills, and you all have shared many other great ideas. You can visit The HSUS' Stop Puppy Mills site for even more ways to help (http://www.stoppuppymills.org/what_you_can_do.html).

[shopaholic]

I wanted to come here and share my story because I believe...actually I know, that I just experienced a puppy mill today. We were going to pick up our 12 week old french bulldog puppy this morning. According to the breeder's website everything seemed legit at least to the untrained/unknowing buyer. I was foolish and fell into their trap. As we were driving up we noticed a sign that said "Town Name, Amish community". After seeing on here about the Amish community wheels started turning in our heads. Now, I feel terribly stupid and naive for not knowing this town was an Amish community. Since being home I did a simple google search and the first link that appeared says that its the largest Amish community in the United States!!!!!! I think I let the cuteness of the animal sidetrack me.

We did go to their place to see the animals. We talked to one of the contacts for directions and expressed our concern with puppy mills and that we were changing our mind and going home. She guaranteed us that it was not a puppy mill. After many tears and discussion we decided to give them the benefit of the doubt and just look. Once we found the place it was red flags all over. First of all, the dog we wanted wasn't even the one pictured. The animal they had pictured was a female (we were lead to believe it was a male). The animals were kept in cages in a barn outside. He went to get the dogs and you could hear about 20-30 dogs barking. He wasn't even sure of the dogs age. The dog smelled horribly and pieces of his fur were missing (looked like bug bites...possibly mange??) AND, the dog didn't even look like a french bulldog. His ears were not erect and he was huge. He didn't appear to be the 12 weeks which they claimed. I didn't even ask to see where they were kept because I already knew it was going to be in some conditions I didn't want to see.

I feel incredibly horrible for these poor puppies and I wish I could help them. I feel that by me not purchasing him I did more good than if I were to buy the dog. I do not want to support this cruel industry.

[jesvet]

Oh shopaholic, I'm sorry. It sounds like you were right. I know how excited you were and it must have been so hard to walk away.

I feel that by me not purchasing him I did more good than if I were to buy the dog. I do not want to support this cruel industry.

You're right. I know it was still hard, though. (((hugs)))

Maybe your local SPCA can give you some ideas how to report them? If the conditions were inhumane, at least maybe someone can investigate them?

[shopaholic]

Oh shopaholic, I'm sorry. It sounds like you were right. I know how excited you were and it must have been so hard to walk away.



You're right. I know it was still hard, though. (((hugs)))

Maybe your local SPCA can give you some ideas how to report them? If the conditions were inhumane, at least maybe someone can investigate them?

Thank you. This is very difficult. I've nearly been in tears all afternoon. It doesn't seem like the dogs were being physically abused but I know there is more to abuse than just the physical aspect. They are claiming their dogs to be AKC. Perhaps I could file a complaint through them? I want to do something but I don't know what.

[jesvet]

Check out this website- it's geared to Ohio but it has some great information. It also has contact information for the AKC:

http://www.columbusdogconnection.com/ReportingPupMill.htm

[rileyandfredsmom]

shopaholic - I am so sorry! I've noticed how excited you have been the past couple of days waiting to pick up your new puppy, even posting a pic in the French Bulldog thread....that must have been awful for you. I'm so glad you walked away but how very, very difficult that must have been.

Please report them, even contact the animal control office in that city/county. Also, if you think about it and still want a puppy, maybe you could just drop by the local shelter and see if there are any there that might be what you are looking for. I know most of them aren't pure bred but you never know what you might find.

Again, I am so sorry!

[shopaholic]

shopaholic - I am so sorry! I've noticed how excited you have been the past couple of days waiting to pick up your new puppy, even posting a pic in the French Bulldog thread....that must have been awful for you. I'm so glad you walked away but how very, very difficult that must have been.

Please report them, even contact the animal control office in that city/county. Also, if you think about it and still want a puppy, maybe you could just drop by the local shelter and see if there are any there that might be what you are looking for. I know most of them aren't pure bred but you never know what you might find.

Again, I am so sorry!

funny thing is, that pic wasn't even of the dog that we wanted. The pic I posted actually was a female, they had the caption that it was a 12 week male.

I hope that just by me posting my experience it opens even more eyes. I know we all read about puppy mills but perhaps not many people think that they will run into one near them or whatever the case may be. I never thought I would EVER run into one at all.

What upsets me even more is the guy left us a voice mail at home (I guess while we were driving back home). We listened and he wanted to know if we were still interested because he didn't hear back from us. He said that all his dogs are kenneled and just because he was Amish didn't mean he had a puppy mill. I did feel bad about this because I hope he didn't think we were passing judgment. (When we were talking to the other partner on the phone for directions we told her that we've read on the internet about puppy mills in amish communities and that we were changing our mind and going home. She reassured us that it wasn't a puppy mill and to still come and look.) Then he goes on to say that 98% of dogs in pet shops come from kennels (i.e. what he is doing) anyways. YEAH, we know that and you might call yourself a kennel....the rest of the world calls it a puppy mill!

I just hope he doesn't find out its me who reports him. He doesn't have my address but has basically all my phone contact #'s.

[rileyandfredsmom]

and if he calls you and harasses you then you report that, it is illegal to make threats/harass a witness (which if you report a crime that is what you are). If he isn't doing anything wrong then he has nothing to worry about....if he is, then he has a lot to worry about.

At this point, I wouldn't call him back...just let it go. Whoever was showing you the dog will tell him how the visit went and he will know.

What is sad is that some of these people honestly don't think they are doing anything wrong...unbelievable to the rest of us but sadly, very true.

[jesvet]

Um, yeah. WTF does he think he is? No puppy mill actually calls themselves a "puppy mill". Anyone who operates breeding facilities on a large scale basis without actually caring for the animals as pets is imo a puppy mill.

ITA with rileyandfredsmom, just ignore the call.

[shopaholic]

Whoever was showing you the dog will tell him how the visit went and he will know.

What is sad is that some of these people honestly don't think they are doing anything wrong...unbelievable to the rest of us but sadly, very true.

The guy who showed us the dogs was the actual "owner" or at least who the website is named after. It seems it is a 2 person operation. A woman who does the website maintenance who we did not meet, only spoke on phone and email correspondence (I am still trying to figure out if she is Amish or if she has some 60/40 deal with this guy) and then there is the guy who we actually met and I guess it is out of his home, or I should say barn.

I really don't think he thinks he is doing anything wrong. I really think its pure ignorance. However, I think the woman who is involved knows very well what she is doing and what is going on.

Anyone who operates breeding facilities on a large scale basis
Now, what would you consider a "large scale basis"? These people are saying they specialize in at least 6 different breeds. I am reading online that reputable breeders only do 1 or 2. Now, I did not see inside of the barn with my own eyes. (I am not sure if there were cages stacked on top of each other, however it did sound like 20-30 dogs were barking.) He didn't seem like he wanted us to. He knew what we were there to see so he said "ok, let me go get them...I will be right back" and went off to the barn a couple hundred feet away. We started walking a bit closer but I already knew in my heart that I didn't want to see. He brought the 2 dogs out and we started looking at them, then he said "I would prefer to go over here" 'here' was by a tree in the complete opposite direction of the barn.

I am going to be ignoring all calls/emails from this point forward (just for the record though they have not called or emailed since that last message. And to clarify his VM wasn't necessarily harassing, it just sound like he was hurt that we were "accusing" him of being a mill. Honestly, I don't care if he is hurt....he hurt me more than he knows.

[jesvet]

6 different breeds is large scale imo. Again, "reputable" breeders usually only do 1, maybe 2. One litter at a time.

[snowzilla]

Oh Shopaholic, I'm so sorry. I know how excited you were. :( I think you did the right thing, as difficult as it was.

[Sue]

I know how difficult it must have been, but until more people do what you did, it will never stop.

Here are a couple of links:
French Bull Dog Rescue (http://www.petfinder.com/shelters/IL290.html)
Breed Rescue info on the AKC site (http://www.akc.org/breeds/rescue.cfm)
Another rescue site (http://www.netpets.com/dogs/dogresc/breeds/dogfbull.html)
French Bull Dog Breed Club (http://www.frenchbulldogclub.org/)
The breed club has a list of breeders that have signed a Code of Ethics (http://www.frenchbulldogclub.org/BreederPage/Code%20of%20Ethics.htm) .

As a member of the French Bull Dog Club of America, I agree that I will not breed any stud dog to any bitch whose owner is directly involved with any puppy broker, puppy mill, litter lot sales or any other commercial enterprise whose business is involved in like activities.

As a member of the French Bull Dog Club of America, I will breed a bitch only with the intent that this particular breeding will improve the breed.

As a member of the French Bull Dog Club of America, I will not sell a French Bulldog to any commercial facility, puppy brokers, pet shop, puppy mill or agent thereof.

Good luck and thank you again for having the stregnth to not purchase a puppy mill dog.

[Foley42]

shopaholic: I've read your recent posts and knew how excited you were about your new puppy. I am so very very very sorry. This is proof that these awful puppy mills are out there and I hope it opens many eyes.

Just because they weren't being physically abused (like beaten or being fought) doesn't mean the overcrowded barn conditions is ok to raise puppies. They LIED to you (picture, sex, and age of puppy) simply to make a quick buck.

You are a very strong woman not to buy the puppy after you saw him. I'm sure it was hard and I would have cried many tears also. You should be proud of yourself! PLEASE report this puppy mill...hopefully it will be shut down. One less puppy mill on the map sounds good to me.

I'm disgusted after reading your experience :mad: so I'm going to the shelter's website where we adopted our dog to make a donation right now...every $15 helps :D

[shopaholic]

Thank you everyone for your kind words/support. I will be filing as many reports as I can because I won't just sit back and do nothing.

I think for the time being I am going to look into volunteering at shelters and making more donations to help out.

[EJM]

shopaholic, I know it sucks but I applaud you for walking away and not supporting such a terrible industry.


Have you given any thought to a rescue group? You'll rarely see them on-line but many will get puppies every now and then. Frenchies are a rare breed because their litters tend to be small. I used to volunteer 40+ hours/week with a Boston Terrier rescue in my pre-mommy days. I can give you some info on that if you find that shelters and local all breed rescues are not for you. Feel free to PM me. A BT is not quite a Frenchie, but close ;)

[Hello Kitty]

You are a very strong woman not to buy the puppy after you saw him. I'm sure it was hard and I would have cried many tears also. You should be proud of yourself! PLEASE report this puppy mill...hopefully it will be shut down. One less puppy mill on the map sounds good to me.
Oh, I agree - It had to be heartbreaking to walk away, but you really did the right thing. Kudos to you.

I really hate puppy mills or any large scale breeders. I feel it really taints people's opinions about even proper breeding. If you are still set on getting a frenchie, definitely look to the breed club for references on a breeder. Even look at the dog show here in IL - you can always go and talk to breeders there - and talk to other breeders and judges about other breeders to find the best place to get your pup.

[JamBray]

shopaholic I'm so sorry to hear about your experience, and how heartbreaking it was for you. Good for you though in walking away (and I can only imagine how difficult that must have been) and not contributing to the heinous world that is puppy mills.

[shopaholic]

I don't want to keep beating myself up over it but the more I think about it the more I get mad at myself. I now feel we should have said something to this guys face. We should have said that we need to see where these animals were. We should have commented that it wasn't even a frenchie. At the time I wanted to get out of there as soon as possible. I don't know this guy from the next stranger and I have no idea what he could have said/done to us.

[JamBray]

I don't know this guy from the next stranger and I have no idea what he could have said/done to us.
Exactly, so don't beat yourself up about this. Let those that know how to handle this do their job, and hopefully put these people out of business.

[KAF]

Shopaholic,

I'm so sorry this happened! I took the liberty of doing a quick search on Petfinder and found this little guy at the rescue in the Chicago area. Even if you're not ready right now, you may be able to keep in touch with the rescue for the future...

http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=8607786

[shopaholic]

Shopaholic,

I'm so sorry this happened! I took the liberty of doing a quick search on Petfinder and found this little guy at the rescue in the Chicago area. Even if you're not ready right now, you may be able to keep in touch with the rescue for the future...

http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/displaypet.cgi?petid=8607786

Thank you KAF. I just looked into it further and it appears the little guy has already been adopted ;)

[Cricket4]

Just wanted to give a heads-up to Houston gals that I'll be discussing this very topic tomorrow morning on Fox26 at about 8:40a.m.

I'm excited to be talking about this very important topic, and hope that they enjoy something a little more serious than we usually discuss.

We just busted a puppy mill two weeks ago, and the ones we could heal are going up for adoption soon. Wish them luck!

[shopaholic]

Their website has a new litter of french bulldogs. They have the dogs listed as 3 weeks old and for immediate sale. They disgust me.

[Sue]

Their website has a new litter of french bulldogs. They have the dogs listed as 3 weeks old and for immediate sale. They disgust me.

You might want to check your state laws or the city laws, there may be one where it's illegal to sell a dog under 8 weeks, then you can report them :)

[shopaholic]

You might want to check your state laws or the city laws, there may be one where it's illegal to sell a dog under 8 weeks, then you can report them :)

I've already filed as many reports as I can. It disgusts me that they are still getting away with it!

[Southlooper]

So what is the definition of a puppy mill? The reason why I ask is because DH's ex-girlfriend parent's purebred dog just gave birth to her 3rd litter in I think) 2.5 years. They've been selling the puppies. This seems wrong to me.

We have and alwys will get our pet from the shelter.

[MLA]

So what is the definition of a puppy mill? The reason why I ask is because DH's ex-girlfriend parent's purebred dog just gave birth to her 3rd litter in I think) 2.5 years. They've been selling the puppies. This seems wrong to me.

We have and alwys will get our pet from the shelter.

I'd say that they're backyard breeders -- not really even a step above puppy mills.

[Southlooper]

I'd say that they're backyard breeders -- not really even a step above puppy mills.

I feel the need to report them. That poor little dog...:(

[Hello Kitty]

I generally think of a puppy mill as people who are breeding multiple breeds of dogs (so those ads you see for PUPPIES! Dobermans, Shitzus, Schnoodles - with one breeder?) and obviously no care except to turn out puppies. Generally, responsible breeders are putting all their time and effort into making the best Doberman possible, that they're not going to focus on other breeds - you just couldn't.

I would personally say someone who breeds one dog that often is not the best breeder (and likely a BYB), b/c it's just not healthy for the mama dog to be bred that often, on purpose*

*I realize that in nature, animals breed every year, but the human element of making these dogs procreate makes me feel that maybe it's not the best thing for them.

[shopaholic]

I feel the need to report them. That poor little dog...:(

To start you can report through ASPCA.com

[jajacobsen]

Well we don't know any facts here. They may or may not be responsible breeders. They may have done all the homework and all the health checks on the dam and the sire. They may be very responsible breeders. From the information in post #48, we really don't know anything except three litters in three years.

While it is admirable to only adopt from a shelter, purbred dogs do come from somewhere, and that somewhere is from breeders. Breeders sell puppies. All those dogs that we se on television in AKC dog shows come from breeders - not from the shelter. And those breeders sold those dogs. The fact that someone sells a dog does not make them evil.

Qusetions to ask yourself: How many dogs are on site? Do they breed other dogs? Do they have multiple breeds of dogs? If the owners do have multiple dogs an breeds, well then it sort of sounds like a puppy mill, which is not very ethical, although probably not illegal.

If they only have one breeding dog, then they are either back yard breeder, or a professional breeder. I know that to many here at CC, backyard breeders are disdained, but there are other viewpoints. I don't wish to debate those points. There is a very fine line between being a "back yard" and a "professional" breeder. Neither is illegal.

Now what I'm curious about is why the OP knows or cares so much about the activities of her boyfriend's ex GF's parents' dogs.

[TwnklToes80]

So this is an honest question. I'm not trying to be condescending. I personally think these practices are disgusting and I feel so bad for the poor animals...And I realize the idea is that if noone buys them, they will stop breeding these poor dogs. But what about the poor pups that have already been whelped. What happens to them if noone buys them? I am pretty against purchasing an animal from a pet shop (and as a previous poster stated, from a breeder I don't really know) but sometimes i see these poor puppies and the conditions they are in and I want to buy them just to give them a better home.

[Foley42]

I don't really know) but sometimes i see these poor puppies and the conditions they are in and I want to buy them just to give them a better home.
This frees up space for yet another puppy mill puppy to go on sale. When you buy from pet stores you are supporting the puppy mill industry.

[shopaholic]

So this is an honest question. I'm not trying to be condescending. I personally think these practices are disgusting and I feel so bad for the poor animals...And I realize the idea is that if noone buys them, they will stop breeding these poor dogs. But what about the poor pups that have already been whelped. What happens to them if noone buys them? I am pretty against purchasing an animal from a pet shop (and as a previous poster stated, from a breeder I don't really know) but sometimes i see these poor puppies and the conditions they are in and I want to buy them just to give them a better home.

Unfortunately the cycle has to stop at some point. If you were to purchase the dog because you want them out of the situation you are just freeing up space for another dog and showing the person who is running the practice that there is a demand.

[jajacobsen]

I think we all agree with Twnkltoes80s feelings. But teh fact is, we have to stop the demand for puppies from pet stores. If one buys that puppy, then it just further shows there is demand. It is a heartbreaking situation.

[coquelicot]

"Heartbreaking" is the perfect word for it. You know you can give the puppies a far better home than where they've been and where they are now, and it's not their fault they've ended up like that. But still...you just can't give your money that supports such an industry.

[shopaholic]

"Heartbreaking" is the perfect word for it. You know you can give the puppies a far better home than where they've been and where they are now, and it's not their fault they've ended up like that. But still...you just can't give your money that supports such an industry.

exactly. It is very heartbreaking and a lose-lose situation.

[Lucy Van Pelt]

I just wanted to bump this up because Oprah is doing a show on the horrors of puppy mills this Friday. She is doing the show in honor of her beloved cocker spaniel, Sophie who died last month.

[jesvet]

Oh, thank you Oprah!!! And thank you LVP for sharing that.

[mar5195]

That's awesome of Oprah to do that. Initially I didn't want to get a shelter dog because I thought they'd have so many issues. Then when I was looking into particular breeds I learned that alot of breeds have medical issues because they've been over breed.

We ended up with a mutt from the shelter. Best $33 spent!

[Sue]

Anyone watch the show? I was at work so I missed it... I heard she did a pretty good job, spoke about speutering and adopting along with the puppy mills.

[Hello Kitty]

I watched the show. I thought it was very good - it got people to watch by starting out with the puppy mill issue and firmly implored people not to buy from pet stores, but rather to adopt/rescue, all while not villifying proper breeders. It also talked about shelters, the statistics for euthanised pets in shelters, and then got into the importance of spaying & neutering. I think for an hour long, they developed/produced the show really intelligently for your everyday (IE not us who already abhorr bad breeding practices) viewer.

[TazLuv]

I saw it, I thought they did an excellent job. They started with a montage to her dog that died last year and she broke down which I think showed that she really is a dog person and that this was a personal topic for her, not just some show. They talked a lot about how a lot of the people that run these puppy mills don't consider dogs to be pets but livestock, it was very sad and hard to watch but a good show and hopefully got the point across to her audience.