Five-year-old gave heroin to day care members

[Weddings by]

MSN (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19254352/)

"A 5-year-old New York boy brought small packets of heroin to his day care center and told other children it was candy, police said.

Six children were rushed by ambulance to a hospital and later released. The boy, his 2-year-old sister and another 2-year-old girl apparently swallowed some of the drug.

...

The boy's parents, Wayne Clamp and Kari Lyn Lee, said their son must have found the "10 pack" of heroin as his mother walked him and his two sisters to the YWCA Schoolhouse Commons center...

The couple's children and Lee's 7-year-old son were taken into protective custody and placed with Lee's mother pending a July 11 court date. ..."


This story really bothers me because the children were taken from their parents and there is no mention of evidence that the parents were involved. Of course it could be possible that the parents are habitual drug users, but wouldn't that be mentioned? Shouldn't the parents have at least had to fail a drug test before it was allowed to decide that it was possibly their fault?

It's really bothersome to me that CPS can and does take children from homes without evidence. I completely understand that people are trying to protect children, but taking children from families that aren't harming the children isn't protection.

"Innocent until proven guilty" doesn't apply to CPS and that needs to be changed.

In one of the news stories, the mother said that she had passed two drug tests: one before the incident because a neighbor had accused her of doing drugs, and another after the incident.

Both parents said that they aren't drug users.


Other reports:

NY Daily News (http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007/06/15/2007-06-15_5yearold_brings_heroin_to_day_care.html)

The Buffalo News (http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/99172.html?imw=Y)

WCSH Portland (http://www.wcsh6.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=63571)

[jesvet]

That's a tough one. I mean, of course they said they weren't drug users, I imagine anyone in that situation would. There is always a possibility the parents were lying, right?

I think if there was any suspicion that the children were exposed to heroin on a regular basis, I am OK with CPS taking the children into protective custody until they are sure things are safe. The kids are with their grandmother, not foster care...

I don't think "innocent until proven guilty" is always the right approach when children are involved. Send them to jail without evidence? No. But to make sure the kids are safe? Absolutely. How many times do we hear about CPS dropping the ball on cases of horrible abuse? They are being proactive. I'm sure they have their reasons for what they did.

This can't be about the parents' rights...the kids have to come first. If my child brought heroin they found to a daycare and gave it to other kids, I'd be so distraught I couldn't imagine- and I would pretty much expect CPS to be doing a full investigation and making sure my kids were safe, that is what they are there for.

[karlatta]

I don't personally have a problem with the children being removed from the parents' home at this point. I agree with jesvet's opinion that the kids' rights have to come first. Granted, it's a terrible thing for this family to go through if they are not responsible in any way for this. But I don't think that "innocent until proven guilty" works the same when you're talking about the safety of children.

I think it's important to point out that the kids have been placed with their grandmother. They likely have visitation with their parents. They are not in a strange place with people they don't know. It is really the best-case scenario in a situation like this.

In my opinion, too, there IS evidence that an investigation needs to be held. The mother was previously accused of being a drug dealer. (And really, a negative drug test doesn't mean you're not a dealer - it just means you're not a user - but the kids could still be exposed to drugs and dangerous situations.) The kids took drugs to day care and called it candy. I fully expect that if something similar happened to me, I would be investigated. And it would be incredibly likely that my kids would be removed from my home. It would be terrible, but as a mom, my kids' rights totally trump mine.

[jajacobsen]

I would have strong suspicions of drug DEALING, not usage. Also, the children are placed with a grandparent, so I don't think that is too traumatic. Honestly, I find it hard to believe a child found the 10-pack on a walk to school and the mother saw nothing. I mean it's possible, but probably the child would have shown what it found to its parent.

[maxandmolly]

This story really bothers me because the children were taken from their parents and there is no mention of evidence that the parents were involved. Of course it could be possible that the parents are habitual drug users, but wouldn't that be mentioned? Shouldn't the parents have at least had to fail a drug test before it was allowed to decide that it was possibly their fault?
Whether or not they use drugs is really not the issue. The child had heroin. In a ready-to-sell package, and called it candy. Children rarely make things like that up-if he thought it was candy, it's because someone told him it was. You know, so when the kid got interviewed, he could say no, of course I don't know what drugs look like!
Their child had heroin. The mom said he must have picked it up on their walk to daycare-why didn't she see what he picked up? Don't most 2 year olds go
Look! LOOK, mommy! CANDY!!!!!!
when they find candy?

It's really bothersome to me that CPS can and does take children from homes without evidence. I completely understand that people are trying to protect children, but taking children from families that aren't harming the children isn't protection.

"Innocent until proven guilty" doesn't apply to CPS and that needs to be changed.

In one of the news stories, the mother said that she had passed two drug tests: one before the incident because a neighbor had accused her of doing drugs, and another after the incident.

Both parents said that they aren't drug users.
The fact that they passed a drug screen does not mean there is no evidence. There may simply be no evidence that has been released to teh media. ALL CPS records of investigations and court actions are confidential. Anytime you remove children from their parents you must get them in front of a judge within 24 hours for the judge to hear testimony on whether the children should stay out of the home while the investigaiton continues, or whether they are merely overreacting. Judges CAN AND DO give children back at the initial hearing. If they are still out of the home, there's a reason the judge in the case found sufficient. The standard of evidence and proof for an initial shelter hearing is lower than criminal stanards.
The child swallowed heroin-is that not causing possible harm to that child? What should they wait for, him to be in a coma from it? Until the picture is clearer, the children need to be out of that home for their protection.
It is not a permanent removal, it is not then accepted that it they should remain out of the home. The state still has to prove those parents are unable to safely care for their children without services being provided. THEN they get a year to complete those services (drug treatment, parenting classes, etc) and assuming they sucessfully complete it, their children are returned to them, under CPS supervision.

"Innocent until proven guilty" doesn't apply to CPS and that needs to be changed.
To have that standard in place for an initial removal would result in dead children. Period. The criminal system is set up in defense of the criminals-do you really want CPS set up in defense of the paretns, or in protection for the children?

I hate when stories like this hit the media. It always tries to make CPS/DCF/whatever your state calls it look bad. But the authorities are not allowed to release information to justify their decisions, as the records are confidential.
And I end up getting snarky clients trying to use it as an excuse for their behavior/drug use/whatever, and I have to explain to everyone I know that there is ALWAYS more to the story that will never be made public.

[MLA]

Honestly, I find it hard to believe a child found the 10-pack on a walk to school and teh mother saw nothing. I mean it's possible, but probably teh child would have shown what it found to its parent.

Exactly. I think a 5-year old, especially, would be likely to show his mother what he'd found. And I find it hard to believe that while walking to school, the 5-year old stopped to pick up something (which just happened to be heroine -- you know how those heroine addicts just leave their drugs everywhere) and the mom didn't notice that he was doing it. Her story just doesn't sit right w/me.

This is a case where the child's life was in danger -- and the lives of other children were put in danger. I don't see how CPS had any choice but to remove the child from the home.


ETA: x-posted w/maxandmolly -- totally agree w/her.

[Weddings by]

The child had heroin. In a ready-to-sell package...

I know basically nothing about drugs, so I didn't realize that's what it was.

I know that there is ALWAYS more to the story that will never be made public.

Thanks for pointing that out.


Yeah, I hadn't thought about the fact that most young children would probably mention finding candy.


I personally know of two cases in which children were taken from homes when they shouldn't have been. I also know of a case in which the children should have been taken, but weren't because of CPS's shoddy investigating techniques. I think that sometimes I'm overly sensitive to CPS stories as a result.

Nothing was said about there being an actual reason to believe that the parents were involved, leaving the impression that CPS thought, "Ooo, drugs, take the kids then we'll figure it out." It would be nice, given that they can't disclose particulars, if they could tell the press that there are other reasons to believe that the children are in danger. That's what upset me; that it sounded like kids were taken as a precaution without having a reason to be concerned, you know?

Thanks for the replies!

[DansGirl]

Children aren't just removed b/c parents fail drug tests. In my state children are most often removed from their parents' care for "failure to properly supervise." Which could be the case here on many different levels (drug dealing; picking up the "candy" on the way to school when he's supposed to be in the mom's care, etc.). Also, I'm sure they got an emergency removal order to ensure the kid's safety until they could complete the investigation. Also, remember the juvenile system (at least in my state) does not require "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" - that's a criminal standard. Juvenile protection law usually requires a lower standard - meaning the State has a lower burden of proof.

[artist]

As the daughter of a recently retired social worker in CPS, I have to agree with what PPs have written.

Also, drug testing pretty much detects heroin for only a few days after usage:
http://www.heroinaddiction2.com/heroin-drug-testing.htm

So, if the mom passed the drug test, it basically just proves that she perhaps has not used heroin for a few days. (Marijuana generally stays in the urine stream for about 30 days and I believe cocaine can clear one's system in only a day or two.) Also, I don't know about heroin, but I have heard of people either drinking a lot of water or using a detox kit to test negative for marijuana use.

The media tends to hype up stories like this to make CPS look bad. A lot of what CPS does is dependent on the laws that exist. In other words, they are just doing their job and they have to go with what the law says. I would rather the child be removed from the home in this case. As others said, the child is with a grandparent, not foster home. Also, it's not like the child is being permanently removed from the home. The mom obviously will be given the opportunity to go through treatment, etc. or whatever the courts deem appropriate.

[maxandmolly]

I personally know of two cases in which children were taken from homes when they shouldn't have been. I also know of a case in which the children should have been taken, but weren't because of CPS's shoddy investigating techniques. I think that sometimes I'm overly sensitive to CPS stories as a result.
The fact that *you* didn't think they were removed for a good reason does not mean the agency was not working within the confines of the Federal and state stututes and their agency policies. I'm the first to admit, there are plenty of workers out there who don't care, suck, and are otherwise inept. But it would be nice if, once in a while, it was not the first assumption.
Nothing was said about there being an actual reason to believe that the parents were involved, leaving the impression that CPS thought, "Ooo, drugs, take the kids then we'll figure it out." It would be nice, given that they can't disclose particulars, if they could tell the press that there are other reasons to believe that the children are in danger. That's what upset me; that it sounded like kids were taken as a precaution without having a reason to be concerned, you know?
Again, the agency cannot say ANYTHING about the case to the public or the media. Even "There are other concerns about the home" would be a beach of confidentiality in most situations (exception being a death of a child).
And you know, if most people realized the enormous hassle, effort, time, and paperowrk involved in removing kids, they would see that it's not something any of us *really* want to do.

As others said, the child is with a grandparent, not foster home.
I've seen a few PPs mention this. The standard of legal sufficency to remove a child is the same whether there is a willling and able family member, friend, or no one outside foster care. If the child is at risk, the child is at risk regardless of what placement options are available. Are there workers who make removal decisions based on where the child would be placed? Probably. But that's not the policy in my state, nor is it considered a best practice standard. If a child is a risk, a child is at risk, even if they have to go into foster care. But a child in foster care is still entitled to visits with their parents (granted, a little less often than mom going to grandma's everyday), and while foster care should never be a first option, there are many wonderful foster parents out there who take wonderful care of children in the system. We have a few of them here on CC.

[Weddings by]

The fact that *you* didn't think they were removed for a good reason does not mean the agency was not working within the confines of the Federal and state stututes and their agency policies.

Oh, I know that they legally could take the kids. That's the problem that I was trying to point out.

[scout]

The boy's parents, Wayne Clamp and Kari Lyn Lee, said their son must have found the "10 pack" of heroin as his mother walked him and his two sisters to the YWCA Schoolhouse Commons center Come on. Like the "10 pack" of heroin would just be lying on the sidewalk. Like his mother wouldn't have seen her son pick up such a thing. This is most likely why CPS took the kids away. Innocent until proven guilty is one thing, but the scenerio the parents described is very, very unlikely.

[jnettie]

Whether or not they use drugs is really not the issue. The child had heroin. In a ready-to-sell package, and called it candy. Children rarely make things like that up-if he thought it was candy, it's because someone told him it was. You know, so when the kid got interviewed, he could say no, of course I don't know what drugs look like!
Their child had heroin. The mom said he must have picked it up on their walk to daycare-why didn't she see what he picked up? Don't most 2 year olds go
Look! LOOK, mommy! CANDY!!!!!!
when they find candy?

Exactly.

When my cousin was 2 years old, she knew where in the house to hide from the police if they raided my uncle's house. He and my aunt did heroin and were dealers. They coached their kids to lie for them their entire lives. Telling your kid that the heroin packets are "candy" seems like a likely think for a drug dealer to do, IMO.

My cousin died of an self induced overdose when she was 20 years old. She was raised around drugs and lies.

So, no, I don't think this is an overreaction at all.