Vegan parents guilty in infant murder-6 wk old starved to death

[Medako]

This story really upset me, so I thought I'd see what everyone else thought.


Vegan parents starve infant son

The parents of a baby that died of starvation after being fed a vegan diet have been found guilty of malice murder, felony murder and first degree cruelty to children.

Jade Sanders, 27, and Lamont Thomas, 31, will get an automatic life sentence for the death of their 6-week-old infant, Crown. After being fed a diet largely consisting of soy milk and apple juice, he weighed only 3 1/2 pounds when he died.



Full Story (http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=185948)

[HeatherFL]

I'd be interested to know more. I'm sure there have been babies on vegan diets before who have grown up to be healthy adults. I don't think it was just the diet.

~H.

ETA: Here is a resource. (http://www.vegansociety.com/html/people/lifestyle/families/parenting/vegan_children/) She uses 19 other resources in the article too.

[IrishEyes]

I agree with Heather that is probably wasn't just the vegan diet that killed the child. I'm surprised they were giving their baby apple juice. Perhaps they needed some guidance on how best to nourish their child given their lifestyle, if breastfeeding wasn't an option.

CNN.com said that there was no food in their house (for the parents) and just one container of soy milk and one container of apple juice in the fridge. There was also just one bottle found at the house.

I wish there was more information on this case.

[IrishEyes]

Here's more information on this case:

The infant was born in the bathtub of a Buckhead apartment but never taken to a doctor while alive. He was dead when his parents took him to Piedmont Hospital, across the street from their apartment, April 25, 2004. At six weeks old he weighed just 3 1/2 pounds and was so emaciated, doctors could count his bones through his skin.

Fulton prosecutor Chuck Boring said the verdict isn't a condemnation of veganism, a strict form of vegetarianism that doesn't allow the consumption or use of animal products. Instead, jurors believed prosecutors' assertions that the couple intentionally neglected and underfed the child and then tried to use the lifestyle as a shield.


More at this link (http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2007/05/02/0503metvegan.html?imw=Y).

[HeatherFL]

"The vegan diet is fine," Boring said after the verdict in the Georgia case. "These parents lied about what they fed him. He just was not fed enough."

This is what I was originally thinking.

[Nigellas]

This is NOT what veganism is about. I know lots of vegans who breastfeed. These people are wack.

Poor baby. :(

[Medako]

I was under the general assumption (right or wrong of me) that a majority of vegan parents do breastfeed. That's why I found the article so disturbing.

I just don't understand how you don't realize that your child is dying when he weighs only 3 1/2 lbs. and probably isn't active at all. How could a parent not know that something wasn't right??

[amew]

This is so terrible. That poor child! It definitely seems like the complete lack of medical and giving the baby apple juice are the real problems here. But what do vegan moms do if breastfeeding is not possible for some reason? I had always assumed that soy formula was vegan, but I tried googling it and it looks like it generally contains some animal-derived components. It seems like vegan parents who can't provide their children with sufficient breastmilk pretty much have to stray from their vegan beliefs somewhat for the sake of their kids.

[BethIrish]

They deserve to be in jail for 10 lifetimes for inflicting such cruelty on a helpless infant.

[Annette]

This story disturbed me. I watched the CNN video last night and there was no food in the fridge or cabinets.
How did they not realize something was wrong???

[snowzilla]

The headline/title really bothers me. The diet did not kill the child. The parents did, whether it be through the administering of THEIR interpretation of the diet or whatever - but the diet did not kill the child.

[Medako]

just speaking for myself, but if there weren't any food in the fridge or cabinets for myself, that's one thing, but I would do anything necessary to feed my child, even if it meant going against my vegan beliefs. With all of the programs out there to aid in helping with the cost of formulas and whatnot, there's really no excuse for not getting food into your child!

[MLA]

The headline/title really bothers me. The diet did not kill the child. The parents did, whether it be through the administering of THEIR interpretation of the diet or whatever - but the diet did not kill the child.

I was thinking the exact same thing. The diet didn't kill this infant. The parents did.

[Adaya]

This was one of the top stories on the local news yesterday. The headline said "Parents get life for starving baby." They were pleading with the judge and saying that they loved their child and to look at the name they gave their baby and all this mumbo jumbo. Whatever!

It's a sad shame what happened to this child and to think they lived right across the street from the hospital. They could have asked for help if they were really "trying" to raise their baby on a vegan diet and found that it wasn't working too well. What they were saying in court was a bunch of crap.

[greenbunny]

I've heard of people killing their cats with a vegan diet (hello, obligate carnivore) but never a child. My first thought was also that it was more complicated than that, and I wish the headline would accurately reflect that.

I would think anyone who wanted to raise a child on a strict or unusual diet would have the sense to consult with a medical professional first.

[Medako]

if the title is that big of a deal, then by all means, change it.


Another similar story:

Vegan Couple Starves Toddler
NEW YORK — A vegan couple in New York City were busted for starving their baby daughter — by denying her breast milk and formula, feeding her only nuts, fruits and vegetables, and allegedly failing to get her medical help for severe malnutrition.

Joseph and Silva Swinton, both 31, were arrested Friday and charged with reckless endangerment and endangering the welfare of a child for failing to properly feed and care for their baby, Ice.



full story - April 2002 (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,51494,00.html)

[greenbunny]

Medako, I thought that was the NEWS headline. I wasn't referring to your thread title. I misunderstood.

[jnettie]

I remember the New York case in the news from a few years back. Those people were nut jobs! They insisted they did nothing wrong, but their baby was obviously starving.

From what I understand from friends who are vegans, you have to be very careful about your own protein intake while avoiding animal products. Often, you need to take vitamin supplements, otherwise the lack of protein can cause problems with brain chemistry. It's twice as important to be very careful with babies and children because of the amount of protein they need to develop properly.

Obviously these people barely fed themselves properly. They had no clue how to care for a baby. If you don't ever take your newborn to a doctor :eek: there are some serious problems with your world view.

[ignutzz]

If you don't ever take your newborn to a doctor :eek: there are some serious problems with your world view.

Careful. There are a lot of well informed, educated parents who choose not to do well-baby visits with an obviously healthy child.

The parents in both stories don't fall into the above category by any stretch of the imagination, but NOT going to a Dr. is not an inherently bad thing for babies.

-------

I was really annoyed by the news story headlines as well. No matter what the baby's diet was, it was the parents who where neglecting her and that's what caused her death.

[yby1]

Ugh, what's with the crazy Vegans (I know most are normal, well adjusted individuals)? Why would a vegan deny their baby breastmilk??? I know breastmilk is an animal product, but I would think it would be the one product that would be exempt. I doesn't make any sense to me. I understand the problems Vegans would face with formula feeding though, but the baby's health comes before your beliefs IMO.

[BumbleB]

I just don't understand how you don't realize that your child is dying when he weighs only 3 1/2 lbs. and probably isn't active at all. How could a parent not know that something wasn't right??


I think this is the point. THEY KNEW.

[ignutzz]

Ugh, what's with the crazy Vegans (I know most are normal, well adjusted individuals)? Why would a vegan deny their baby breastmilk??? I know breastmilk is an animal product, but I would think it would be the one product that would be exempt. I doesn't make any sense to me. I understand the problems Vegans would face with formula feeding though, but the baby's health comes before your beliefs IMO.

To me this just seems like some sort of psychosis that manifested itself with strict diet control, but could have shown up as any number of other things.

Breastmilk is given freely and by choice by the animals (us) that produce it, so it's not usually an issue with Vegans. :)

[Kate&Joey]

Ugh, what's with the crazy Vegans (I know most are normal, well adjusted individuals)? Why would a vegan deny their baby breastmilk??? I know breastmilk is an animal product, but I would think it would be the one product that would be exempt. I doesn't make any sense to me. I understand the problems Vegans would face with formula feeding though, but the baby's health comes before your beliefs IMO.

It says in the article that the mom gave breast milk. However, I can't imagine how anyone would think that giving apple juice to a six-week old is ok. If you are a strict vegan, I would think that exclusively breastfeeding would be the optimal diet. :confused:

[Niobe]

FWIW, vegan infant formula DOES exist. I want to say Heinz makes one?

Giving a 6 week old apple juice is not the result of being vegan. It's the result of being ignorant. Or possibly a little insane. :rolleyes: Every vegan I've known has breastfed (and usually for 2+ years), though one had to supplement for a while, which is how I learned of the existence of vegan baby formula. Most soy formulas do contain some animal byproducts, but at least one doesn't.

[msnicolea]

Horrifying.

[lml41981]

If you don't ever take your newborn to a doctor :eek: there are some serious problems with your world view.
We're planning to homebirth Baby2 and our ped. wants to see the baby at 24-48 hours after birth. That's fine with us, but she doesn't have separate sick and well baby waiting rooms or separate sick and well baby exam rooms. I will request that if she wants to see the baby that soon, we be allowed to come 30 minutes before the office opens so we are not exposing a less-than-2 day old baby to the germs of potential sick children during cold and flu season. If she can't accommodate that request, then that is fine...she just won't see the baby until 6 weeks of age and the midwife will be the baby's care provider to that point (as she is authorized by the state to be). There are reasons parents choose not to go to the doctor...I don't necessarily think this couple was thinking logically, but that doesn't make all parents who choose not to immediately seek medical attention for an otherwise healthy child nutso.

Niobe, yes, Heinz makes Farley's Soya Formula, which is vegan (though there has been at least one recall due to finding milk products in it). I don't know that it is available in the US, but a determined vegan parent could probably import it or make friends through a vegan support group with someone who would send it to them.

Also...I don't think vegans have anything against breastmilk, generally. I think they're usually considered the crunchiest of the crunchy...and they usually breastfeed if at all possible. It really sounds like if this woman wasn't eating anything herself, she didn't have the calories needed to sustain milk production, though. So she was winging it and doing a bad job of that.

I do wish that donor milk banks were more readily available. Perhaps these people wouldn't have known to use them, but other parents who are vegan might use them before resorting to formula if the milk were more easily attainable and affordable. The current system is pretty much extortion. :(

[Rico'sAlice]

I think that this:
Prosecutors said it was a chilling case of murder by starvation pretty much sums up the true issue.

The veganism, home birthing, and no doctor visits are all aspects that it is fun for the media to pick up on and sensationalize, but IMO are perfectly reasonable choices for those who do so responsibly and attentively.

[FTR- I'm not vegan. I am planning a home birth. I will have our family practice doc come by after my milk comes in because I want her to do the metabolic disorders screening (PKU), but outside of that have no intention of taking my child to the doctor absent symptoms of a problem requiring medical intervention.]

[phoenics]

Wow - that is so sad.

And can't you breastfeed and still be vegan?

[pocket]

My cousins are major players in the macrobiotic community and they believe that breastmilk should only be fed for 3 wks. They start solids at that point and continue to BF until the child self-weans or their milk goes. There are about 30 kids born and raised in their community ranging in age from infant to early-30's. They had some nutritional deficiencies as kids (rickets) and they are a bit short and have small teeth, but other than that they are quite healthy.

also, one of the original members of the community died during a home birth. they don't do it anymore.

[artist]

I am a vegetarian, though I am not a vegan. I have certainly known plenty of vegans however, and either they are good and competent parents or they likely could be such if they ever decide to have children.

I thought an infant that young needed to be on a diet of just breastmilk and/or formula. (Though I am not a parent, so I guess I don't know for sure. Also, if I were pregnant, you bet I would be researching these things and asking my doctor about it!)

The headline of that article is just propaganda to feed into people's fears about the vegetarian diet. People who are all about the meat and potatoes diet and think vegetarianism or environmentalism or animal rights are crazy ideas will read that headline (and perhaps not even the content of the article itself) and buy into that. Any of us vegetarians on these boards could probably pull up a lot of information as to what is unhealthy and unsafe (not to mention inhumane and cruel) about the carnivore diet. A parent who is a meat eater could just as easily kill their child through starvation and neglect or a completely unhealthy or inedible diet that includes meat. For example, meat that is not cooked well enough, that is spoiled, or not properly stored. Meat that is injected with a bunch of hormones and crap. Honestly I think it's pretty disgusting that a lot of young children are fed hot dogs...er...the worst part of the pig meat (heck, I don't know, the ass?), yet proclaim that a vegetarian diet is somehow crazy.

Like others suggested, it was not veganism that killed the child, but rather neglect/abuse of the parents. I also think it's irresponsible to have children and not see a doctor ever.

[Scooter]

Oh that is horrifying! The poor little baby, how sad.

Medako, I thought that was the NEWS headline. I wasn't referring to your thread title. I misunderstood.

I personally think the thread title should be changed. It's incorrect. The baby wasn't on a vegan diet, so a vegan diet didn't kill him.

My cousins are major players in the macrobiotic community and they believe that breastmilk should only be fed for 3 wks.Macrobiotics is even more restrictive than vegan diets, but not all people on that diet would agree with your cousin's take on it.


FTR, I'm not vegan. ;)

[ignutzz]

And can't you breastfeed and still be vegan?
Yes.

also, one of the original members of the community died during a home birth. they don't do it anymore.
Relevancy???? Bad things happen, one event doesn't make something more or less dangerous. This comment is as off the mark as the idea that veganism killed the baby.

I thought an infant that young needed to be on a diet of just breastmilk and/or formula.
Yes.

I also think it's irresponsible to have children and not see a doctor ever.
If you mean this in the context of how these parents handled the care of their child, yes. If it also includes the comments I, and others, made about the need for visits, it's a much bigger topic than is appropriate for this thread and bears NO resemblance to the choices these parents made.

[Nigellas]

If you are a strict vegan, I would think that exclusively breastfeeding would be the optimal diet.

vegan or no, exclusively breastfeeding is the optimal diet for ANY 6 week old.

[artist]

If you mean this in the context of how these parents handled the care of their child, yes. If it also includes the comments I, and others, made about the need for visits, it's a much bigger topic than is appropriate for this thread and bears NO resemblance to the choices these parents made.

I was referring to the context of how the parents being discussed in this thread, whom the article is about, handled the care of their child.

As for what you or anyone else posting here does, if you are taking care of your child, feeding him/her a healthy diet, not neglecting or abusing your child...then it's really none of my business how you choose to raise your child. I would guess that if your child were sick you would seek some sort of medical help. Perhaps the help would be from a traditional Western medicine doctor. Perhaps it would be some sort of homeopathic/natural/alternative medicine. Either way, I would hope you or anyone hear would seek the necessary medical care for your child when needed. If your child were sick due to starvation and you ignored your child, that would be abuse and also really stupid. I can't know for sure of course, but I get the impression that most if not all of the members of this board likely take very good care of their children! So to clarify, the previous comments I made (and sorry I was a bit unclear in writing them) were in no way directed at anyone who posted in this thread!

[snowzilla]

Medako, I thought that was the NEWS headline. I wasn't referring to your thread title. I misunderstood.

I thought it was the news title as well, but if I'm understanding correctly, and it's the OP's choice of words for the thread title, I still think it's incorrect. The diet did not kill the child - I guess the OP feels that it did, however?

[ignutzz]

Thanks for the clarification artist. I figured that's what you probably meant but since it was brought up before in a broader meaning, I had to ask. :)

[Medako]

change the title if it's that big of a deal. It's not a direct quote from anywhere specific. It still doesn't change the content of the article.

[Kate&Joey]

vegan or no, exclusively breastfeeding is the optimal diet for ANY 6 week old.

I meant that I don't understand how a vegan (who would want to make 100% sure that NO animal products were introduced to their infant) would not exclusively breastfeed and take the chance that formula / juice / any mass-produced food would be vegan. To me, that's why their argument is suspect and I think starvation was more to blame than a vegan lifestyle (their defense).

[pocket]

macrobiotics is not all that different from veganism actually. it restricts nightshades (potatoes etc) but allows flesh (fish, mostly). i consider the fact that one of the women on my cousins's commune died during a home birth to be pretty relevant. their choices were based on a rejection of the dominant western medical model. keep in mind that there have been 30-some children born to this community. it's not like i am saying it's always that dangerous - it happened once.

[Medako]

the only rational possibility I can think of as to why this woman didn't continue to breastfeed is that she wasn't properly eating and her supply diminished because of it.

but that's still not an excuse to not feed your child something - and NOT apple juice!

[artist]

Thanks for the clarification artist. I figured that's what you probably meant but since it was brought up before in a broader meaning, I had to ask. :)

:) Trust me, if you love your kitty so much to have an adorable photo of him/her as your avatar, I would imagine any child you may have is VERY loved and well cared for!

[ignutzz]

pocket Perhaps I misunderstood your intended message in that comment. Were you trying to illustrate that their decision to homebirth was equivalent to their choice to be macrobiotic? Meaning both go against the grain of current US culture. Thus, when homebirth seemed to be more risky they gave it up and if being macrobiotic seemed to convey the same risk they would abandon that too?

If the above is what you meant (or the gist of it), I understand. The original phrasing didn't come across that way to me.

ETA: Artist Now that's just flattery overkill. :p But I appreciate the sentiments. :D

[wendalah]

This story makes me livid. It's news reporting at its most sensationalized and irresponsible. Veganism did not kill the baby, irresponsible parenting did.

[artist]

ignuttz-

I notice in your signature line it says something about you are studying to be a midwife. (Is that correct? Also, now that I just typed that, is there a more PC term for "midwife"? I know, a bit off topic, but now I am curious.)

Anyway, I personally would be the type to want to just get the hell out of my house, go to a hospital, and have an epidural. But that's ME. I know PLENTY of women who feel completely the opposite, want a totally natural and drug-free labor, want a midwife or a (what's the word...starts with a "d"...help...blanking here), want to give birth at home or while squatting somewhere or in a bathtub or whatever. I know people who just don't use Western medicine. They use herbal and homeopathic remedies. They do things like go to an acupuncturist. They drink special teas. They do yoga. They use cloth diapers. They use natural tampons or maybe that cup thing, whatever the heck it's called. If they drive at all, they carpool and drive a hybrid car. They meditate. Whether or not they eat meat, they shop for all natural and organic foods at the local food co-op or farmers market. They also garden and grow their own veggies and have a compost and recycle most of what they can't compost and they are mindful of their consumerism in order to not produce more garbage. They use Tom's Of Maine toothpaste. Anyway, you get the point.

These people I am thinking of are actually really healthy and also health conscious. Most of them are not extremely fat or extremely thin. They have a healthy glow to their skin and hair. They seem pretty calm. Their children are happy and healthy and loved immensely. They are probably some of the healthiest people I know, yet they gave birth in their own homes and rarely see a Western doctor. However, these people certainly find other methods of seeking medical care.

The whole home birth thing is nothing new. My grandparents and all of their siblings were born at home. This is just how things were done then. Certainly there are cases where a homebirth just does not work or is dangerous. Because of c-sections, many women and babies are kept alive whereas in the past they would have died. I have my own personal reasons for not ever wanting to go with the homebirth/no meds method, but that is not to say I think there is anything wrong with women who DO prefer that approach. I also take presrciption and over the counter medications and see Western doctors. However, I have also seen an acupuncturist and used homeopathic and herbal remedies before and can attest to the fact that holistic medicine is extremely effective.

[ignutzz]

artist There's nothing un-PC about the word "midwife", use it all you want. As for the other words you're looking for: Doula, Diva Cup or Keeper. :p

I'm not quite sure how to respond to what you're saying, other that that I understand where you're coming from. I wasn't trying to berate Pocket for her comment, I just didn't understand how it applied to this situation. Obviously, this is not a place to go over birthing methods :) but in the same vein that I asked you about your comment, I needed clarification about Pocket's. Both opinions touch on topics that are important to me and that I'm well informed about, which can sometimes lead to an offhand comment implying something to ME that the poster may not have intended. Since I don't want to give in to a knee-jerk reaction, that is may or may not be wrong, I try (really) to address it respectfully.

[larslobster]

This story makes me livid. It's news reporting at its most sensationalized and irresponsible. Veganism did not kill the baby, irresponsible parenting did.

I'm completely in agreement. These people were simply crazy and just happened to be vegans. They were giving a six week old juice and soy milk and had no food in the house? And didn't see a problem with their child's weight? That says crazy to me, vegan or not.

And yes, most vegans breastfeed. She probably couldn't because she herself wasn't eating. Again, that says crazy to me, vegan or not.

[jnettie]

ignutzz - it seemed to me, from the article, that this particular couple birthed their child at home with no professional help. I am in no way pro-hospital birth - trust me on this! - but I wouldn't trust myself with judging whether my potential baby is healthy upon birth. I'd want someone who knows about babies to not only be there at the birth but to check in and make sure everything is ok. That's what I was getting at.

[ysolde]

I'm completely in agreement. These people were simply crazy and just happened to be vegans. They were giving a six week old juice and soy milk and had no food in the house? And didn't see a problem with their child's weight? That says crazy to me, vegan or not.

And yes, most vegans breastfeed. She probably couldn't because she herself wasn't eating. Again, that says crazy to me, vegan or not.

Yup, that about sums up the situation, IMHO. One of my college friends was a Jain, and that is a fairly restricted diet (only fruits, nuts, dairy, and eggs, and the eggs and dairy have to be entirely humane). Breast-feeding was seen as an emphatic "YES!" in the Jain community, IIRC.

[MrsBeckyLP]

The headline of that article is just propaganda to feed into people's fears about the vegetarian diet.

Propaganda? My guess is the headline fit. That's how the news industry works. They were working on deadline, and those words fit into the space available. That's it. It's all about making it fit and shovelin' it in.

[wendalah]

That's how the news industry works.

Partially.

[ignutzz]

jnettie Based on what's being reported, I wouldn't have trusted THEM to have done the appropriate fact-finding to do a responsible UC, so I understand why you feel that way, and I agree with you in this case. :) Thanks for clarifying.

[jesvet]

Since the OP said it was OK I will go ahead and change the thread title (I believe a mod has to do that anyway.)

[chloechloe]

http://www.news4jax.com/news/13286030/detail.html

I don't understand......

[lml41981]

http://www.constantchatter.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32747

[Scooter]

It's (almost) always sad to see someone get a life sentence, but the fact that these parents were that neglectful and cruel and didn't even have the sense to realize it...it's probably fitting.

I still have to wonder if mental illness played a part in it for them. They obviously can't make basic decisions.

[sea74]

This story sickens me to my core. I can't even imagine what that poor baby felt as he was wasting away :(

I do believe the parents need to be punished, and punished severely but I'm not sure that it should be a life sentence. I wish I knew more about the details of the case like what were they thinking by not feeding him? Did they not read ANY parenting/birth book? Did they have NO FAMILY or friends visiting the new baby who would have noticed he was wasting away? I'm sure the poor baby was crying constantly from hunger, didn't that clue them in? I simply can not wrap my mind around it! And see, by just typing this out, I start thinking that maybe a life sentence is too good for them :(

My heart just hurts.

[RoxyRocks]

I had heard of this and to be honest I did think it was real....
What sort of "human" would sit and watch a infant strave to death!!!!

[Niobe]

"The fact that we named him Crown, we were proud of him. We weren't trying to kill my son," Thomas said in court Wednesday.

Yes, naming your child Crown proves you are a great parent. :rolleyes: I really can't tell if these people are evil, mentally ill, or just deeply stupid.

[maxandmolly]

Yes, naming your child Crown proves you are a great parent. :rolleyes: I really can't tell if these people are evil, mentally ill, or just deeply stupid.

D) All of the above