bedtime woes

[linda_loo]

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[almostthere]

Linda,

We have had on again off again bed time issues and in the end what has worked in the ends for us is during the day is to calmly talk about 3 levels of conscequence

she gets one time out and we retuck her in
second time take away her baby doll
third time take away her pillow
fourth time take away her blanket

after one long cold night without any of these three things - she has gotten much better.

We tried everything else from positive things such as 3 nights in bed you get a gift (which she said oh well I do not want it) to spanking - which my DD thinks is funny.

I think natural thing only works if your kid actually gets tired, mine just got cranky the next few days. Mine can stay up but she can only come out one time (for her she never need to go to the bathroom after bed)

Good luck

[Littlelamb11]

We let DD get out of bed freely and allow her to decide to sleep when she's tired. We've been doing this since she converted from her crib to toddler bed just before her third birthday. The key for us is the gate at the stairs. DD has loved having the freedom, she learned early on from natural consequences that it was in her best interest to sleep when she was tired (and to sleep in her bed, LOL--her first night in her toddler bed, she slept part of the night on the hallway floor. After that, she figured it out and has slept in her bed ever since.)

We still do the regular bed time routine we have always done...bath, brush teeth, pajamas, read books together but now, she decides if she wants to turn the light off and go to sleep right away or if she wants to stay up for awhile first and read quietly, play her leap pad etc and then put herself to bed. When she chooses to stay up, she's usually up for around 30 minutes and then she turns off her light and goes to sleep. If she needs to go to the bathroom or get a drink of water, she does it herself. She knows once the bedtime routine is over and mommy and daddy kiss her goodnight, the gate at the top of the stairs is locked and if she needs something like a drink of water, she needs to get it herself.

[LeighW]

I feel your pain.

My DD (she'll be 4 in 6 weeks) also sleeps well in phases. It's gotten particularaly bad lately, both with 50 requests before she finally sleeps (bathroom, water, more hugs, different doll, etc.) and with getting up too early (before 6:00 am).

We've re-instituted the rewards program. She gets to choose a small toy (stuff from Target's One Spot) from a prize stash in the morning if she goes to bed without making a scene, stays in bed (or at least in her room and quiet) all night, and stays in bed or in her room until wake-up time.

She gets up and goes to the bathroom or gets a drink from the bathroom on her own and gets back in bed.

We used to have a chart with stickers, and she only got a prize for each 3 stickers (3 good nights). But that wasn't working, so this time we told her she gets a prize every morning if she follows all the sleep rules.

Otherwise, we do the same bedtime routine we've always done. We remind her that she won't get a prize if she doesn't follow the rules (stay in bed, be quiet, close your eyes, go to sleep). We also try to talk about it calmly during the day.

I've tried Lisa's suggestion of allowing her to stay up on her own after the bedtime routine, but she just gets wound up and makes a huge mess in her room. Then we have to go in, calm her down, and clean the bed off so she can sleep. Instead, we tell her she doesn't have to sleep if she isn't tired yet, but we do tell her she has to be quiet and stay in her bed. She can "read" books or play with her dolls and animals in bed, within reason.

It's a little tricky at our house because the bedrooms are on the same level as the kitchen and the study where the computer is (and the playroom just off the kitchen). So, DH and I usually spend some time on that level doing stuff after she's in bed but before we go to bed. It would be easier if we could just close the babygate and go downstairs.

We just re-instituted the prizes last week. She's probably cooperating now because it's new and fun. I imagine I'll be back to the drawing board in a few weeks when she doesn't care about getting a prize any longer.

Something that has worked for us in the past is shutting her door if she doesn't settle down after the bedtime routine. She hates to sleep with her door closed. Threatening that will sometimes keep her in line.

[kimbers]

We're kind of in the same boat.

I have two DD's 4.5 yo & a 3 yo and they share a room. My older DD wants me to lay down with her every night after we read books. I did it in the beginning and it was just for a short time but now as she's getting older, she wants me there until she falls asleep. Now they are both fighting over who I get to sleep with. It's funny, if I'm laying down with the younger, my older will say "you're taking too long mommy". I know this is my fault for starting it :o but now how do I stop it?

We usually separate the girls when we put them down so they don't play but lately they've been going back & forth between rooms. If one wants our bed, the other wants it too. :rolleyes: I've also tried to put them down and tell them I am not sleeping with them since I have things to do etc. but they keep getting out of bed and running out to us. It's like a big game. So needless to say, bedtime is drawn out for 1 hour+. I just don't know what to do anymore. I'm tired of the long nights.

Since daylight savings it's been even harder. When 8:00 comes around, they aren't tired. But I can't keep them up since they go to school. I even have a hard time getting them up in the morning.

I dread bedtime! :(

[linda_loo]

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[kimbers]

Linda...
I was looking for some input. Thanks. :) I don't think you sound like a geek. Actually, I'm glad you went into detail that way I understand exactly what you are talking about. Your ideas sound great.

My girls don't nap anymore :( so they have the same bedtime (8pm). I do read to them together and then they "usually" go to bed in different rooms (ours & theirs). I don't mind that so much, it's the getting up after we've put them down. And it's mostly my DD4.5. I don't know how it would work if I gave her extra time alone. My husband is here and can read to her more or lay with her but she always wants me, so I usually just lay with her & he lays with DD3. But recently they both want me. You'd think they'd get sick of me since I'm home all day with them. :confused:

I think letting them know I will only lay down w/them for 5 minutes & then I go might work. I'll try tonight.

BTW my older daughter sounds similar to yours. She is a daredevil too!

[mamax2]

Drive-by reply...

kimbers ~ Another thing you might try is gradually phasing yourself out of the room, but doing frequent 'check ins'. Like, the first night, lay down for 5 minutes, then get up, tell the girls you have to brush your teeth/change your clothes/go to the bathroom - something that just takes a few minutes, but that you'll be back. You do the errand and check back in. Then you come up w/another errand, etc. The point is that you build their trust that you're still around and WILL be back to check on them so there's no need for them to come find you.

Keep at this method, but move yourself out of their beds and sit on a chair in their room, then in the door way, then outside their room, etc.

This is the method I used when my DD was younger (around 2) and it worked beautifully to help build good bedtime habits. She was a horrible sleeper before that, but that method (Sleep Lady Shuffle (http://sleeplady.com/)) really helped us. These days, our biggest issue is nightmares/fears over wolves, bears and monsters. I read 'Little Red Riding Hood' against my better judgement last week and it's been downhill ever since!

[kimbers]

Thanks mamax2 for the suggestions as well.

I think I'll try it since I've done something like it in the past. We used to say we had to brush our teeth, get ready for bed, etc and then go, but sometimes she (DD4.5) would follow us out of the room. So I'm going to have to be firm with her to stay in bed.

I'll read that link too, thanks!

Last night I did the 5 min lay down with Dd3 first in our bed. My DD4.5 stayed up for about 10 min more and then I got went to lay with her in her bed. She didn't like the 5 mins, she wanted more. But I didn't stay. She got out I don't know how many times. It was 9pm before she went to bed so that was a little under 1 hour.

DD3 on the other hand didn't fall asleep until 10pm :eek:. She did take a nap (fell asleep in the car while DH was coming home) but I didn't think it would keep her up that late. She too wanted someone to lay down with her.

Does everyone else's kids still nap? I know my DD3 needs one but wont take it most days. She will fall asleep in the car if we are out for awhile but that's it.

[mamax2]

Does everyone else's kids still nap? I know my DD3 needs one but wont take it most days. She will fall asleep in the car if we are out for awhile but that's it.
Yes, my 3.5 y.o. still naps. I have a feeling (and have been told by other moms IRL) that younger siblings stop napping at a younger age because it's tough to get them to sleep when their big sister/brother is up. I definitely forsee this being a problem in my future. I am TERRIFIED of the day my kids don't nap. I live for this little break in my day!

I also think 'sleep begets sleep'. I find that if my kids miss their naps or it gets cut really short or something, it's harder to get them to bed at night because they become really hyper. It's like they're trying to keep themselves awake for so long they can't relax.

To answer Linda's original question, our routine is somewhat flexible depending upon timing and whether I'm alone or DH is home. It's basically:
dinner, bath, PJs, vitamin, teeth brushing, hair drying, read books. At that point, if DH is home we divide off and he and DD 3.5 will usually have a little 'pillow talk' and she'll go to bed. I nurse/rock our 15 m.o. and put her to bed. If DH isn't home, I'll let DD3.5 watch Sprout while I put baby to bed then I'll read her a 'big girl' story before she goes to sleep. Or sometimes, she'll watch 15-20 minutes of a movie w/DH if it's early and she's earned TV time as a reward that day.

Our girls share a bathroom between their bedrooms so if DD3.5 wants a drink of water, trip to the potty, etc., she just gets up and does that. Our main thing is that she has to stay quiet (no yelling, loud singing, etc.).

If she's not following the program early in the routine, like not cooperating to get ready for bed, we'll give warnings and start taking away stories or if it's really bad, no TV time the next morning while DH gets ready for work. If there's protesting after lights out, we threaten closing the door or turning off the nightlight. That usually ends all drama - those are pretty valuable commodities ;)

[kimbers]

Yes, my 3.5 y.o. still naps. I have a feeling (and have been told by other moms IRL) that younger siblings stop napping at a younger age because it's tough to get them to sleep when their big sister/brother is up. I definitely forsee this being a problem in my future. I am TERRIFIED of the day my kids don't nap. I live for this little break in my day!


I hear ya on this. My 3yo stopped napping a few months after starting school. I think it was even before her 3rd bday. She started telling me she couldn't take a nap because it wasn't dark outside. ;) I used to live for both kids napping too; it was quiet & relaxing in the house.

I also agree with this:
I also think 'sleep begets sleep'. I find that if my kids miss their naps or it gets cut really short or something, it's harder to get them to bed at night because they become really hyper. It's like they're trying to keep themselves awake for so long they can't relax.

This is a quote from the website http://sleeplady.com/home02.htm

Pay attention to your child's sleep window -- when a child is naturally ready to fall asleep. If you miss that natural opportunity, your child will get wired. That second-wind will mean it takes the child even longer to get to sleep, stay asleep, and won’t sleep later in the morning.

Last night I put them to bed earlier (7:45) and they were asleep by 8:30. :D

I thought I read in this thread about taking away their pillow but I don't see it now. I wonder if it was in that link (same as above) you posted mamax2. Well anyway, I did that last night, I told DD4.5 if she got out of bed then I would take away her pillow & if she got out a 2nd time I would close the door. I also told her, after I had to take away her pillow, that if she stayed in bed for 5 minutes I would be back to give her the pillow. She stayed in bed. Then I gave it back & she got out again. :rolleyes:
But I have to say, I'm happier with the way things went. I didn't get as stressed about their bedtime. So I think I'm going to try to stick with it.

[pixielou]

my dd is only 2.5, so who knows what the future will bring. . .

but, fwiw - my experience with lieing down with dd. . .

dd likes me to lie down with her as well. i think it's acutally helpful to calm her down and really make her ready to sleep. as soon as she breaks one of "the rules" - she knows mom is going to leave bed - no sitting up, no talking, no hitting the wall or kicking the wall. i actually don't leave the room - i just go sit in her reading nook - a pile of pillows in the corner of her room. so i can keep my eye on her - and make sure she doesn't get totally riled up. as soon as i feel she is calm and ready for sleep, i leave the room. i usually end up lieing with her 5 minutes max. if i end up sitting on the pillows, it's maybe 10 minutes max.

i've *finally* found a routine that tends to help with the nighttime sleep. dh gets home from work at 7:30 and does wild rambunctious play with dd - jumping, running, wheelbarrow. totally wipes her out. we have dinner around 7:45. then around 8, we do nightime diaper and pj's - including her fleece sleeper (even though she's in a bed, she doesn't keep her blankets on so we need the blanket sleeper). we then do quiet play until bedtime - she must be sitting on the couch - puzzles, lacing beads, reading, stuff like that. then we go up to bed around 8:30/45. i've found i really need the combo of the wild rambunctios play to tire her out, followed by a good amount of quiet time downstairs right before bed. i do something similar around nap time.

~pixie

[MrsTazlvr]

I'm about to go to bed myself so I didn't read all the posts above. I just wanted to share two things that worked for us to curb the in and out of bed. First of all I made a chart with the whole bed time routine. I made sure to put all her normal stall tactics on it. Bath, teeth, book, water, potty, and then hugs, kisses, and bed. I learned that I had to do potty after the drink because if she drinks she says she has to go potty even if she just went. Anyway, doing all her possible "stalls" before she asks for them helped a little because she ran out of ideas of things to ask for.

The other thing that really worked for us is giving Allie 3 (sometimes 5) pennies (sometimes nickels or dimes) on her dresser. Every time she gets out of bed or we have to go in she loses a penny. Out of pennies, out of luck kiddo. ;) LOL Any pennies she has left at the end of the night go into her piggy bank. She doesn't really understand the concept of money but she knows from Dora that you need coins to buy things you want. LOL And she loves to wake up and come into my room in the morning to put her pennies in her bank. So far this has really helped. Of course there are nights she tests us and loses all her coins, but not that often now. And she is younger than your DD so maybe this won't work when she is your DD's age. From your posts our DDs seem to be a lot a like. ;) Good luck.

[Sarah]

My DD will be 5 in the summer, and we have a routine. We read a chapter of a chapter book (Ramona, LHOTP, Mrs Piggle Wiggle, whatever) and then have a quick snack, and then brush teeth, pray, and bed. I have a timer set for 30 minutes, and she is allowed to listen to 2-3 books on tape. When the timer rings she is to turn off the little lamp and go to sleep. If she gets out of bed there is no book on tape the next night (except for potty or emergencies). If she comes in our bed at night we walk her right back with a hug and a kiss.
I think the books on CD are really integral to her sleeping, and they've improved her listening/reading/language skills, too. I just got her some long ones, like the Boxcar Children, Winnie the Pooh, etc, and she loves them. I put one on and she will listen to the same one over and over because it's a little over her head, so she gets new stuff from it each night.

[Littlelamb11]

Linda---OMG, I totally remember your houdini moment with the stairs. Yes, definately a lot more creativity is needed for you bedtime conumdrum. I wonder if they make floor-to-ceiling gates...or...concrete wall? :p

Sarah, that is an awesome idea using books in CD. I think I'm going to have to add that to miss Annabelle's repertoire. :)

[Sarah]

Thanks, L. She has a three CD changer in there, so I put books on tape on 2 spots, and then the third is classical music lullaby music. So she has music when the books are over.

[LeighW]

Great idea for books on tape. My DD just discovered them and loves them. I'm going to try them too. :)

[Renrel]

For books "on tape" another option is the fisherprice FP3 player with speaker. you can download alot of stories and music off their site or put your own cds into a file to be uploaded. We did this for awhile with my DS of 3.

[ellybelle]

Good info, all!

Ok, anyone have any ideas about how to get a kid out of your bed and back into her/his own bed? Our daughter (now 3 1/2) started her transition from crib to BG bed at a really difficult time -- right before we found out that my MIL was dying. Between the emotional difficulties and the fact that she and I were sharing one room for 3 weeks or so while we were out visiting the family, the whole transition failed, and she ended up in our bed. She then started daycare 3 days a week, and at that point I really couldn't deal with moving her.....

Things have since stabilized, and we've started preparing her for sleeping in her own bed (she's even negotiating right now, "can I have just one more night in mommy and daddy's bed?"). But she's gotten dependent on either nursing or snuggling before she falls asleep, and I really don't want to continue along that path for much longer.

[MizLarner]

my almost-8 DSS has had a lot of bedtime related fears. Fears of being in the dark, fears of being 'stolen...' I finally figured it out that when he asks me "are you going to bed soon," the answer he wants to hear is no. He feels safer going to sleep, knowing I am awake in the living room. Once he's asleep, he's good to go. Unfortunately, I find myself on the computer for another couple of hours :p I've tried to give him books on CD or music to listen to as he falls asleep, but he says it keeps him awake.


My 2 year old (3 in July) still cosleeps but it looks like we are working our way towards moving him into his brother's bed. He's always been a cuddler and has progressed from having to nurse to sleep, to having to be right up against me while hugging my back, to having to wrap his hand around my stomach or his ankle around my leg, to having to touch his hand on my back, to just having to be settled down and near me for a little bit. So, I'm letting him fall asleep in the chair with me while his brother falls asleep in his room (2yo will keep 7yo awake if they go to bed together!) and then I put him in his brother's bed. I'll see him again in my own bed by 2 :p

[linda_loo]

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[MrsTazlvr]

Cori - We are doing the pennies now. Honestly, I thought that was a pretty horrible idea at first (you know... I was being all uppitty, thinking it was bad to bribe my children). But then. Desperation. It worked for a few nights. Last night, we had some problems during the night... but it is keeping them in bed when they fall asleep (which was my major complaint). Evan and I laugh like crazy about it... imagining the day that our kids realize was 5 cents means... and realize that we got them to stay in bed for 5 lousy pennies. LOL.

Yeah, it will be funny when they realize what 5 pennies really is. Glad to hear it's working for the most part for you. We had some days where it didn't work, she'd lose all her pennies, etc., but for the most part it worked. I guess I didn't really think of it as a bribe because she is earning the pennies for staying in bed. I guess I felt that it's not like I was handing her a dollar bill and saying stay in bed kid. She is earning the pennies to save for something special.

So far she hasn't even asked to cash in her pennies for anything. I think she just likes the act of putting the pennies in her Dora bank- clink clink. When she does ask about using the pennies I will probably let her "buy" something from my "treasure chest". I have a small box where we keep toys that grandparents, etc. have brought over. It got to the point that they were bringing over toys every time they came over. Allie was acting too "entitled". Hal and I wanted her to earn some of her toys- not like she needs another toy- LOL. So we made a treasure chest so when she is being exceptionally well behaved she earns a toy from the chest. We do tell her who the toy was from so she can thank that grandparent but she no longer expects the toys when the grandparents come over. I wish I could have just told them to stop buying toys but they are grandparents and they won't listen. LOL I have gotten them to at least buy some educational toys now though like flash cards, games for the leap pad, workbooks, etc. I am also hoping that all this money handling will help lay the groundwork for learning about the value of money later on. Wishfull thinking right? LOL ;)

[linda_loo]

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[MrsTazlvr]

Thanks. I am grateful that they get my girls stuff. Don't get me wrong. I just don't want them spoiled. Allie started asking, "What did GG bring for me today?" as if she expected it each time. It was making me nuts. I didn't want anyone to buy my kids' love, you know? It was to the point that my mother would buy the girls something to make up for the fact that she was busy all week and couldn't see them. She was buying Allie's love, forgiveness, etc. Now I get to ration the toys, etc. as I see fit. So far it has really worked and thankfully the grandparents are on board with my idea. Of course once in a while one of them buys something and I let them give it to Allie or Daniella that day (if I am in a good mood :D).

[Delta]

An idea I just got from MDC - so simple, really - is to tell my DS that I'd be back to check on him after a few minutes, and then again a few minutes after that, etc. (For the past month we've had a hellacious routine of him getting out of bed about 20 times.)

So, I did that 'check on him' thing for his nap today and he didn't get up one time. :eek:

[MrsTazlvr]

An idea I just got from MDC - so simple, really - is to tell my DS that I'd be back to check on him after a few minutes, and then again a few minutes after that, etc. (For the past month we've had a hellacious routine of him getting out of bed about 20 times.)

So, I did that 'check on him' thing for his nap today and he didn't get up one time. :eek:

We tried that with DD a while ago. It worked once or twice. Then she got wise to us. LOL :p

[mamax2]

At least your parents are buying cool stuff. My mother goes to Goodwill twice/week... I don't know why, I think it's her way of getting a cheap shopping fix. Every week, she gives a bag of crap to my kids. It drives me nuts.
Hey, is your Mom my MIL?? :p Switch out Goodwill for Garage Sale and we're living parallel lives.

An idea I just got from MDC - so simple, really - is to tell my DS that I'd be back to check on him after a few minutes, and then again a few minutes after that, etc. (For the past month we've had a hellacious routine of him getting out of bed about 20 times.)

So, I did that 'check on him' thing for his nap today and he didn't get up one time.

That is final phase of the 'Sleep Lady Shuffle' that I posted about earlier in this thread. You have to definitely keep going back at regular, believable intervals for it to work. Like, if you say you're changing clothes, it can't take 15 minutes :p Ultimately, it's what got my then 2 y.o. to *finally* learn how to fall asleep on her own. It's worked really well for us.

[trishcutie]

Okay, our problem isn't the falling asleep, it's the staying asleep through the night.

It started with one or two wakeups, and it's now up to 4 or 5. My 4 y.o. wants me to lay with her or sleep with us, neither of which I allow. I walk her back to bed and tuck her in, and then it starts. Her room is too cold, too hot, her bed isn't comfy, why am I doing this to her, etc.

I am at my wits' end. I need her to sleep through the night!

Any suggestions?