preschoolers and discipline - discuss

[Renrel]

I am struggling with being a good disciplinarian to my now 3 year old son, and thought that other probably are as well, since disciplining is probably one of the hardest parts of being a parent. So I thought I would start a thread where we can all vent, gripe and confess as well as seek advice and just moral support as we work at raising our little ones to one day be responsible members of society.

I myself have been way to lax as a disciplinarian. My kid is pretty well behaved most of the time and I have a high tolerance for most stuff, so there are not that many battles I have choosen to fight. That was working pretty well through around age 2, but now it is biting me in the ass.

DS has alot of trouble understanding that we are the parents and that he is not our equal. He tries to use any tools we use with him, or that his teachers use, to get us "to behave." It can be pretty cute to watch sometimes, but it is still a problem. (Picture a 3 yr old making a long face and telling you, in complete seriousness, to look at his face and that ask you if he is smiling? This is one of his ways of trying to get us to change our behavior to meet his expectations, since his teachers say this to get the kids to understand that what they are doing is not funny and not OK. ) I really don't see the behavior as sassing. He is just acting like an adult, the same way he mimic how we say please and thank you and May I have the salt please. He does not know that this "tactic" is only OK for an adult.

He has also recently started throwing tantums. He does not get what he wants and throws himself on the floor or runs into the other room, crying and screaming. We had been trying to just ignore this but that is not working.

So we are trying to do the 1-2-3 magic approach. Kid misbehaves and you just start counting to 3, no pleading, yelling, reasoning ect. If you get to there they get a time out. I am getting better about being consistant but I am still not very good at this. (Well I have only really committed to doing it this week. I used it in the past on and off which is of course not effective. I am still stopping at 2 and reminding him that he can stop my counting but stopping what he is doing. (He starts yelling at me not to count as soon as I start counting.) I think I have seen some improvement over the last day or two, but not yet the magic of just saying "one" and my kid stops in his tracks.

We have also started taking away dessert, car snacks and bedtime snacks as consquences for certain misbehaviors. Not necessarily natural consquences but he loves his snacks, his video and his books and the snacks are so far the least painful on me. Take away his video and I have to deal with him being pissed and under my feet while I try to get dinner started. And I am a sucker for reading him books. He learns so much that I really find it hard to take them away as a punishment.

[emschwar]

So we are trying to do the 1-2-3 magic approach. Kid misbehaves and you just start counting to 3, no pleading, yelling, reasoning ect. If you get to there they get a time out. I am getting better about being consistant but I am still not very good at this.
I don't know if you're doing this or not, but you might find it effective to, before you start counting, say "If I get to 3 and you're not [whatever], you're going to lose [whatever]." When Noah misbehaves, I find it much more effective if I tell him what happens when I get to 3 before I start counting. Otherwise, I'm just counting.

Also, I'm not sure that natural consequences is all that it's cracked up to be at this age. It's HARD to think of natural consequences for some offenses, especially since you want to think of something that the kid's not going to like. I think the immediacy of the consequences is more important than the natural aspect.

[Renrel]

Thanks emschwar, Maybe I will try that phraseology. What kind of consquences to you use that have immediate impact. A time out has the advantage of being immediate and allowing a break between the conflict and moving on with our lives. It seems that announcing the loss of some priviledge would not work very well for ending a tantrum, since it would just add fuel to the fire, though it might help in the long run as he makes the connection. Though even then, I think it would be hard for him not to react by escalating his tantrum rather then escalating, given that he would already be worked up. Then again, I have seen him recover from a tantrum almost instantiously at times. So maybe not. And thanks for your input on natural consquences. Makes me feel I am not as bad at all this as I feel at times.

I am suprised this thread is not getting more activity. I thought this would be a hot topic of discussion and might help get this forum moving.

[emschwar]

I'm pretty lousy with consequences. It kind of depends on the situation. Hitting warrants an immediate time out. If Noah's dawdling too much at bedtime, he loses his stories. Those are the only things I can think of right now, but I know there are other offenses in our house.

[mamax2]

I am suprised this thread is not getting more activity. I thought this would be a hot topic of discussion and might help get this forum moving.
Well, you're getting lots of 'views', just not posts, which makes me think it's just because we're all clueless on this topic!

I struggle with so many of the things you mentioned, minus the tantrum part - DD isn't big on those right now. My biggest challenge is the mimicking behavior. Like I tell her "O.k., let's go in the house, go potty and get ready for nap." Her response: "Excuse me, is that how we talk? I don't think so!" She tries to discipline me for every.little.thing I do and it drives me batty. Actually, it escalates me into some very poor behaviors like yelling, which I hate to do, but it's the only way to get her off my case sometimes. Gosh, I feel horrible even writing that, but it's honest.

I've decided that there really aren't 'good' natural consequences for most of DD's offenses. I resort to taking away privileges. I try to give a warning, a threat, and then the take-away. Maybe this is too much? Am I not acting swiftly enough? I feel like we cover the same territory all day, every day, kwim? Like, 'it wasn't o.k. to sit on your baby sister yesterday so why would it be o.k. to do it today?!?!'

Obviously, I need help in this department too :o

[Renrel]

mamax2 - Glad to know I am not the only one with a kid who trys to discipline me. It still cracks me up when he runs off to his room in anger and a few minutes later yells out "Are you ready to behave now?" Ah, the poor little man has to learn that the world does not revolve around him and that not getting his way does not mean his "grown ups" as he call us are miss behaving.

For what it is worth, I also make a big deal of noticing appropriate behavior. When I pick DS up from school, and he cooperates with putting on his coat and does not pester me for a drink of milk (knowing that the new school rule does not allow this), does not run away and make me chase him ect, I will tell him how happy it made me that he cooperated and made it easy for me to get us out of school today. I will note when he is unhappy but keeps things under control, and things like that. I will also make a point of telling others about his good behaviors when I know he will be "evesdropping." We all tend to believe praise about ourselves given to others more than when it is directed right to us.

[Delta]

Well, you're getting lots of 'views', just not posts, which makes me think it's just because we're all clueless on this topic! Ding ding ding, we have a winner. ;)

[AlisonCO]

Picture a 3 yr old making a long face and telling you, in complete seriousness, to look at his face and that ask you if he is smiling?

O.M.G Renrel, this is so funny I don't think that I could keep myself from laughing if Aidan did it:)

Also, I'm not sure that natural consequences is all that it's cracked up to be at this age. It's HARD to think of natural consequences for some offenses, especially since you want to think of something that the kid's not going to like. I think the immediacy of the consequences is more important than the natural aspect.

I agree - thank you for saying this!

DS is pretty laid back, rarely has a tantrum and is very sensitive so I can still get away with using my mean mommy look or voice. Like mama2x, I have a hard time finding consequences for the issues that we have daily - DS pushing DD, DS roughly taking something from DD etc. If they are truly fighting over something I might take it away and put it up, but does that really teach them anything? I also try to make a big deal about when he is playing nicely or when he politely asks DD for something. He is very polite in public and with kids his age (like at gym class, the park, the train table) so I think that he does this mostly with DD becasue he realizes that she is smaller/younger and he can get away with it.

For awhile our biggest issues were with transitions throughout the day but the 5/3/1 minute warnings have helped alot with that. DS also likes to have alot of control/choices throughout the day so I make sure to let him pick his clothes, food, cup etc.

I will definetely be watching this thread because a couple of people I know said that things get a bit worse thru the 3's into the 4's before they get better!

[Renrel]

Just a comment to lurkers. You are welcome to lurk, but please note that the topic here is discussion and sharing, so you can feel free to post just to share that you too don't know how to get a three year old to mind.

[twinnyme]

I've been lurking but my DD is only 2 so I haven't been posting. On Feb. 7th I wrote this "reflection on discipline" in my LJ:

"So far, the discipline "tools" in my "toolbag" are:

- timeouts (which she actually responds to pretty well; in the last week or so, I've started to use the timer on the oven to count the two minutes and she actually has sat twice now for the full two minutes on the steps)
- ignore the tantrum or bad behavior (used rarely, just once or twice so far)
- tons of praise (I do this well) and positive discipline in general (I need to work on this more)
- anticipate and try to prevent the problem that generally causes her to lash out (this has worked for the hitting issue she sometimes has)
- yelling (I hate when I do this and I try to do it rarely but it creeps up on me sometimes - which is when I then have one of these reflective posts, LOL!)"

Also, this past Thursday, I wrote:

"Funny story from tonight: Becca put one of her teddy bears in timeout. While in the living room she said to the bear: "No hitting," then brought the teddy to the stairs, told him he was in timeout for "one minute" and not to move from the stairs. Once again, she said, "That's not okay." It was hysterical. I think yesterday (or Monday?) was the first time I'd put her in timeout in quite a while - for hitting me. That's really the only reason I give her timeouts now - mostly I use the "mommy look" and "1-2-3" (and by 3, she has to do whatever I'm asking her) and it works 99% of the time right now. When she took teddy out of timeout, I reminded her to ask him to apologize and then to give him a big hug and kiss (just like I do with her). The whole thing was hysterical; I wish I'd gotten it on video. :-)"

I say "works 99% of the time right now" because I know that it could change at any moment and I'll have to adapt. I also use the "eavesdropping" technique - telling someone else (usually, DH) about how good she was/did. The other day in the car I was telling her how proud I was of her for behaving so well that morning - and about 10 minutes later she was saying over and over (out of the blue) "I'm so proud of you, I'm so proud of you." :rolleyes:

I haven't tried taking away anything yet except for food when she's throwing it (which she, unfortunately, still does).

[Renrel]

Twinny - DS puts is toy cars in timeout too, though he does not limit the time, he can leave them there for days. I swear that this is however not reflective of my time out procedure. DS also uses positive reenforcement with us, tell us how good we are, how proud he is of us, ect. Very cute.

[mamax2]

O.k., what about lying? I don't really want to use the word "lie" w/my DD, but I need her to understand 1) the truth is important and 2) making things up can have a negative consequence for other people.

Example:

This morning DD3.5 yr. was jumping off the bed. I told her not to jump, then as she was rolling "Be careful!" It was too late, she'd already rolled into DD14.5 mos. and pushed her headfirst into the nightstand. I picked up the baby (who was sobbing) and sat on the floor to comfort her. DD3.5 looked upset and here's the conversation that followed:

DD: "I'm sorry Mommy" "I'm sorry baby"
Me: "It's o.k., it's over now, just go down to your room and get dressed"
DD: (starts crying/whining)
Me: "You don't need to cry/whine, it's o.k., let's just get ready"
DD: "You said I'm bad"
Me: "I never said you were bad. I've NEVER said you were bad and I never would say that."
DD: "Yes you did, you said 'Bad Claire!'"
Me: "That's not true, I wouldn't say something like that to you"'
DD: "You're being nasty. You need to say you're sorry"
Me: "I'm not being nasty"
DD: "Say you're sorry. You said 'Be careful' - that's mean!"
Me: "Be careful isn't mean and I'm not apologizing for that."
DD: (yells something else and runs off)

What is going on here??? This is an all day every day type exchange between us. :o :(

[Renrel]

Mamax2-
Reading your post what accorded to me is that DD may have internalized your voice as her conscience, which is normal and desired. That is how we keep the values we are instilling now with our kids when they start seriously going off on their own and looking to their peers as their "best friends" instead of us. (sniff sniff at the thought).

So, she knows she did something wrong, her conscious told her, and she feels guilty. But she is still confused by where her "guilty voice" inside her head comes from. She mixed your verbal message with her own head message and projects them both onto you as the messenger. She feels guilty about her behavior. But she also angry at being made to feel guilty -pretty normal even for adults, even if it seems unreasonable, I know I tend to notice feelings of anger towards someone I have "injured" even though I know in my head that they have done nothing wrong and it is my fault they are sad and I feel bad. My feelings don't care what is reasonable. She needs a place to direct her anger and a way to resolve her guilt. So she blames you for telling her she was bad, even though you didn't, and demands that you appologize so that she can get past her guilt and move on. She is unable to blame herself or forgive herself. She still needs your help with this. Anyway, that is my laywoman's guess at the psychology going on.

I have noticed that DS still has some difficult seperating his own feelings and thoughts from mine. He thinks I know what he is feeling, tasting, seeing and thinking, which may also be part of what is happening with your daughter and the guilt message she gave herself.

I am not sure the best way to deal with it though. I have DS repeated telling me I need to say I am sorry for being mean when my "meaness" was prefectly approriate parenting - saying no to a treat, not being able to play just at this moment, giving a time out, ect. It is hard because I really don't think he sees the difference between my "meanness" and when he does not do what we or his teachers want/askl. I also struggle with a way to explain this. I guess this is where that phrase all non-parents and new parents say they will never say comes from "Because I am the mommy. That why!"

I don't think I have used that reason yet, but I am sure I will at some point. I am scared to though, since he gets so angry if you answer any "why" question with just "because." Even "I don't know" can meet with anger. He wants his questions answered. He wants to know how the world works and why it works. He wants my undivided attention, which he feels he is getting when he asks why after every answer he gets.

I wish I could remember something I read about kids and lying that symanticly somehow made it easier to understand why when kids "lie" about somethings it is not really lying in the manner we adult think of lying. They wish things different and given their belief in magic sort of feel they can change reality and protect themselves from consquence by just saying things are different then they really are.

[mamax2]

Very deep, Renrel :cool: I think you really hit a lot of things right on though. There's a lot going with nurturing emotions, guilt, tone, etc. I want to teach her the right thing to do. I don't want to use the "Because I'm the mommy!" card all the time, but really, it's true, I can do stuff or not do stuff because I'm the adult! I don't really know how to get this point across while still teaching her a sense of fairness and respect.

I like what you said about her intertwining my words w/her feelings and not really being able to separate the two. I need to do a better job with helping her label her own feelings and react appropriately. It's just that usually in these cases, we're running out of time or the baby is hurt, etc. IOW, having a little rational chat is about the last thing on my mind. Still, that's no excuse. I need to work on it and I'm glad this thread has been started as a place to vet ideas off one another.

[April1234]

I dont normally subscribe to threads but this one I will. :o

DD who is 28 months has just recently startes throwing tantrums. She has always been easy going so this was a surprise to me because I thought we escaped the terrible twos. :rolleyes:

She really is a good kid 90% of the time. Never had any jealousy twords her younger brother and is VERY protective of him. Never wants me to hold her if I have him etc.
So these tantrums came out of nowhere. I will honestly say the first time she did it I just stood there and probably had my jaw dropped for half the episode until I pulled myself together and told her to get up and go to time out.

Im not sure time out works perfectly. She takes herself to time out. I dont HAVE to walk her there and or sit her down.(I do anyway) But the second I say she is going to time out (after a warning) she starts for her room where her naughty chair is. She cries, sits in the chair and after a min. or so is yelling "I sorry Mommy" I go in there a la Super Nanny; get down to her level and explain why she was sent to TO. She then says shes sorry and hugs me. She goes about her business. So thats all fine and dandy but when shes throwing a tantrum in the middle of the shoe department in Nordtroms I get flustered. I cant use the bathroom as TO because she is potty trained and I never wanted her to associate bathrooms with TO, ya know?

I have just recently started using consequnces. Such as, telling her that if she continues with this behavior I will be taking away her TV privlilages for 2 DAYS.(This sucks for me as much as her because I explained there would be NO TV anywhere in the house or van for 2 days) I havent had to follow through with it yet because apparently its such a horrid consequence to her that she fixes her attitude quickly and apologizes. So its working for now but I know the time is coming where I will have to follow through.

I wish I knew I was doing the right thing though. Sometimes I feel like Im to strong and other times not strong enough. I guess I should just realize that this stage is like any other child stage and I have to adapt and learn as a parent. sigh. Thats so hard though.
:confused:

[Renrel]

April - We to thought we were going to excape serious tantums only to find DS waited till he was 3 for the behavior. He also waited till he was three for biting, hitting, removing shoes and putting things in his mouth for the fun of it. Sigh. The biting and hitting are intended to be playfull 90% of the time, rarely and recently he has raise his hand in anger. He mostly "punishes" me but kicking off his shoes, knowing I hate having to put them back on. One day and made him stand bare foot outside for 30 sec or so as a natural consquence for taking them off in the car and that seemed to help for awhile, but now with snow I don't feel I can do that. It felt a bit extreme at the time. It was late fall or winter, so it was wet and cold enough to be unpleasant but not really bad, and we were heading right in the house afterward.

For time outs out of the house I just find a fairly boring corner of the store or place we are at and pretty much ignore DS for 3 mintues. I turn my back so that I can see him but so I appear unintrested and listen to him complain and mumble about how he does not want, does not like time outs (duh- thats why we give them honey.) and so on. Then as soon as 3 minutes are up I pick up pretty much as if nothing had happened, smile on my face. Though I have to say when I warn him he will get a time out he is often more interested in how and where it will be then concerned and wanting to change behavior. But after the time out his is usually much better behaved.

[Delta]

But see, I don't see a tantrum as time out-worthy behavior. You know? Is throwing a tantrum really a misbehavior or is it just the kid not being able to control his overwhelming emotions? What I do in situations like these is tell him to use his words, or that he can talk to us when he can calmly tell us what is wrong. I just let him ride it out. If we are in public I take him to a quiet, less-crowded area but it's not punishment.

IMO discipline is necessary for deliberate defiance or violence. Time-outs don't really work with my kid usually. I'm experimenting with Playful Parenting (http://www.playfulparenting.com/)right now. And I'm also experimenting with taking away toys. Before now I've always considered that punitive and not very logical consequence-y, but what can you do with a kid who doesn't care if he's in time out or not?

[Renrel]

Delta - Yes and no. For different kids tantums can be different things. And as kids get older they do learn to use the tantum behavior as a tool even when they could control their emotions. At least I have seen that with my child. He was never really a tantrum type kid. He had pretty good emotional control and wonderful communication skills, thus limited frustration. But these days as soon as we say no to anything, or just tell him he has to wait a moment, he will throw himself on the floor and start to cry. Luckily he his not usually a screamer, kicker, over the top tantrumer. But he will do this to try to force us to do what he wants and to capture attention he wants, particularly from me. That is why I will use a time out. I do tend not to move to time outs if I feel his behavior is do to hunger, or tiredness or other things, but DH is pushing me to limit these "excuses" because he feels I always make an excuse. The truth is somewhere in between. After parenting an infant and a toddler, where I was programed into the mind frame that these are emotions and they don't know any better and have to learn ect, I have trouble accepting that I have a preschooler who does have reasonable control and understanding and is now experiementing with Power and manipulation. Normal behaviors, but requiring different parenting tools.

[April1234]

Yes and no. For different kids tantums can be different things. And as kids get older they do learn to use the tantum behavior as a tool even when they could control their emotions. At least I have seen that with my child. He was never really a tantrum type kid. He had pretty good emotional control and wonderful communication skills, thus limited frustration. But these days as soon as we say no to anything, or just tell him he has to wait a moment, he will throw himself on the floor and start to cry. Luckily he his not usually a screamer, kicker, over the top tantrumer. But he will do this to try to force us to do what he wants and to capture attention he wants, particularly from me. That is why I will use a time out. I do tend not to move to time outs if I feel his behavior is do to hunger, or tiredness or other things, but DH is pushing me to limit these "excuses" because he feels I always make an excuse. The truth is somewhere in between. After parenting an infant and a toddler, where I was programed into the mind frame that these are emotions and they don't know any better and have to learn ect, I have trouble accepting that I have a preschooler who does have reasonable control and understanding and is now experiementing with Power and manipulation. Normal behaviors, but requiring different parenting tools.

This is DD to a tee!! She has never been a tantrum type of kid. Thats why I was so taken back when she first did it. She has exceptional vocabulary(DH says its because I talk too much) ;) that I came to the realization that she is throwing these tantrums to manipulate me. She has never thrown a tantrum to the point of not being able to talk back to me etc. from crying so hard. She is able to turn it off just as fast as she turned it on. Like today, we were at the grocery store and she wanted her brother to sit with her in the little car thingy in the front. Hes only 10 months and I dont think odl enough to sit in there with her. She asked me 3 times for him to sit with her and when I explained to her that he was to little she started throwing a mini-tantrum. She was fully capable of expressing her feelings because she did it over and over again. She was throwing the tantum to manipulate me into giving in and letting him sit with her. The no TV consequence is still working much to my excitement. As soon as I remind her what happens when she continues with that behavior it is fixed rather quickly.

I am going to come back after dinner and go to that playful parenting link.:)

[kdevita]

Im happy I just found this thread! We're having tantrum issues these days. DD is 3.5 and her tantrums are totally out of control. She doesnt have them ALL the time but when we say no to something if shes tired, it blows up into this huge thing that she cant control. It can and has lasted for an hour or more at times. She gets herself so worked up she cant stop it. Time outs dont work in this case she wont stay there she runs around like crazy following me, screaming at the top of her lungs telling me to "Be Nice Mama!" and "You're not listening to me!" I try calmly to explain to her why I made the decision I did and what will happen if she doesn't stop her behavior and it falls on deaf ears. She can't process what Im saying when shes in this state.

The only thing that calms her down and finally ends the episode is some juice but often its impossible to get her calm enough to drink some. Then when shes drinking it I can talk to her and she kind of listens. Its crazy and Ive bawled my eyes out sometimes because it gets so out of control.

She is such a sweet kid normally and it just kills me that we have these episodes sometimes over little things.

[Renrel]

kdevita - The only thing I can think of that might help is nipping the behavior in the bud the moment you notice it happening. Don't reason, don't wait to see if she is going to calm down after a minute. Whatever your method of giving a time out starts as soon as the negative behavior starts. If you count to three you start counting, if you do the "oh so sad, you aren't able to be fun right now..." and move to the time out. Stay calm yourself. And after the 3 minutes of timeout, the time out ends with no discussion or comment on the behavior. A hug and a wecome back to the world. I don't know that this will work, your dd may just allow the time out to escalate her emotions, but I know this is helping with my DS, not that I am very good at practicing what I preach. But I am amazed how often if I walk away or put him in his room for 3 mintutes he is a smiling happy kids when the bell goes off. Not everytime. The other day he laid in his bed telling me he was dead and that I had to make him undead. And I played along giving him a kiss and then a tickle. And the first minute of some of these times outs he will scream and cry like his heart is broken, then find a toy or lay on his bed for the next two.

You may also try giving a brief warning. Calmly saying, if you are not off the floor and calm by the time I count to three you will have to go to your room for 3 minutes and calm down there by yourself.

Of course prevention is better than any of these, not allow the child to get over tired or hungry. Easier said then done some days.

Reward charts for a day of good behavior work well for some kids as well. My DS not so much so I am not a good source for this approach.

Or maybe having a bedtime snack of 3-5 whatevers, and each tantrum means one goes away. It gives her something to strive for (keeping her snack) when control herself rather than something to avoid (time out).

[Sarah]

But see, I don't see a tantrum as time out-worthy behavior. You know? Is throwing a tantrum really a misbehavior or is it just the kid not being able to control his overwhelming emotions? What I do in situations like these is tell him to use his words, or that he can talk to us when he can calmly tell us what is wrong. I just let him ride it out. If we are in public I take him to a quiet, less-crowded area but it's not punishment.

IMO discipline is necessary for deliberate defiance or violence. Time-outs don't really work with my kid usually. I'm experimenting with Playful Parenting (http://www.playfulparenting.com/)right now. And I'm also experimenting with taking away toys. Before now I've always considered that punitive and not very logical consequence-y, but what can you do with a kid who doesn't care if he's in time out or not?
I think it totally depends on the kid, the circumstance, and the mom's view of what her kid is capable of. I think most of the time at that age I could tell when my DD was overwhelmed and when she was just being bratty and fussing in order to get her way, KWIM?

[emschwar]

This is something I used when I was teaching, so I thought I'd post it here. I taught 3 and 4 year olds (in one class). (Copied from LJ)

Ok, here's what we did while I taught. With construction paper, we made a ladder (we laminated it for longevity). I think it had 7 or 9 wrungs - you have to have an odd number, but at home I might use fewer, 5 maybe, especially with younger kids (I taught 3s and 4s in the same class). Put velcro on every wrung and make a little card for each kid (we had pictures that represented each child - not photos, but a symbol for each kid, like Jesse was a robot). Every day, all the kids start on the middle wrung. Good behavior moves you up, and bad behavior moves you down. When you reach the top, you get a priviledge (I always misspell that word) - in our class, kids would get an extra job, or get first pick at playtime, or get to sit next to one of the teachers at lunch, whatever we knew would be important to that kid. When you get to the bottom, you lose a priviledge, or get a "punishment" - for our class it was losing a job, or not getting to play in a certain area, or having to eat alone, or a time out, or whatever. Depended on the kid and the "crime".

Now, when you got to the top of the ladder, you stayed there, either until the end of the day (when everyone went back to the middle) or until you did something wrong. But when you got to the bottom, you moved up to the next wrung as soon as your consequence was over. We'd make a big deal out of moving - like, "Oh, sally, you did a great job sharing with timmy! You get to move up the ladder!" We'd be matter of fact about moving down, and announce it and why, but we woulnd't dwell - "Timmy, you pushed bobby, you're moving down the ladder." And we had kids where we had to make stuff up so they weren't constantly living on the bottom ("Oh, suzie, look, you walked past your friend wihtout hitting them! You get to move up!").

Now, along with this, we used the Stop and Think Series (if you google you can find tons on it - it's a social skills teaching program). Over and over we'd go over our steps - whenever you have a choice you have to think "do I want to make a good choice or a bad choice?" I want to make a good choice! So what do I need to do to make a good choice? (List steps here) Then I just do it, and pat myself on the back and say "good job!" Then, once a choice comes up, we'd say to the kid, "bobby, do you want to make a good choice or a bad choice? A good choice is to share the toys with suzie. A bad choice is not to share." If they chose the good choice, we'd praise them. If they chose the bad choice, we wouldn't scold them, we'd just say, oh, that's a bad choice, now you have to go play somewhere else. (The stop and think program goes on to teach kids how to share, listen, interrupt, deal with being angry, and other social skills, but we mostly just used it for behavior.)

We used both things together. It's kind of hard to describe when we'd use one or the other, but hopefully you get the idea (if not, ask!).

[SiValleySteph]

My son's a little young to add much, but I'm interested in following along!

DS is 2.5. Generally when he thows a tantrum now for whatever reason, I just tell him in a calm voice, "I'm sorry, DS, but it's time to go/we're not watching TV/etc." whatver the issue is and then just move on. If it's tends to the sad type tantrum, I will hold him and comfort him. If it's more the bratty type, I tend to ignore him. I tend to use distraction more if we are out and about. "Sorry, we aren't doing that ... hey, do you want to help me do xxx." Can work pretty well still at this age.

DS has gotten a bit bossy - "I want to ... right now," empahsis on the right now. :p Silly kid.

[Renrel]

emschwar - That is an interesting system. Did the kids all know whose symbol was whose? If not how did you avoid the figuring it out as kids moved up and down during the weeks at school. And did the kids talk amoung themselves about where they were on the ladder and where other kids were? Did this cause any problems for the kids who had more trouble making "good choices." I assume that the made up reasons for moving up were to try to avoid these kind of negative labels and images but I am curious how well it worked in practice.

[emschwar]

emschwar - That is an interesting system. Did the kids all know whose symbol was whose? If not how did you avoid the figuring it out as kids moved up and down during the weeks at school. And did the kids talk amoung themselves about where they were on the ladder and where other kids were? Did this cause any problems for the kids who had more trouble making "good choices." I assume that the made up reasons for moving up were to try to avoid these kind of negative labels and images but I am curious how well it worked in practice.

Yes, the kids knew which symbol was theirs. They had that same symbol all over the place - on their cubbies, chairs, job tags, etc. Many couldn't read their names, so we used the symbols too.

Actually, the kids rarely discussed where they/other kids were on the ladder. I don't know if it was just the dynamic in our class, but once the initial novelty of the system wore off, they generally just paid attention to their position (and the kids who were always at the top didn't even pay attention then).

[Renrel]

It is nice that the kids were not yet comparing themselves to each other or using the ladder to make each other feel bad. I wonder at what age that kind of behavior tends to set in and how much it is a reflection of adult attitudes.

[emschwar]

I think a lot of that depends on how the teachers do the ladder thing. Had we made a giant deal of ladder positions to the entire class, I think there would have been more comparison among the kids. But generally, while we didn't whisper the ladder adjustments to the kids, it was information for them alone (although I'll admit there were threats yelled sometimes if a kid was running away from us or something - along the lines of "Bobby, you need to stop running down the hall and come back here or you'll move down the ladder")

[Winter Biscuit]

Just wanted to delurk and let you ladies know that I have been reading along and either haven't had the time to contribute as much as I'd like to, or I haven't decided what I think about things, or I just haven't figured out what we're going to do.

My oldest daughter turned 3 in December and everything was peachy keen...until she started throwing some of the most intense tantrums I have ever experienced. It really makes me feel better to hear that there are other children 3+ years old who are going through the same thing. I find myself repeating, "Whoever said the 2's were terrible never had a 3 year old!!"

Our biggest struggle/issue lately has been getting DD to take her medicine. First she was diagnosed on March 20 with double ear infections and a ruptured ear drum, and was put on antibiotics for 10 days. We had no problem getting her to take her abx at all...but then she had her tonsils and adnoids taken out on March 27 and needed to take pain meds every 4 hours around the clock, plus finish up the round of abx from her ear infections. We could NOT get her to take them. She adamantly refused to open her mouth, and if/when we managed to get her to take her meds, she'd just promptly spit them out. There was one time that we convinced her to take her medicine, and she held it in her mouth for 10 minutes before she spit it out. (We had no idea she was holding it in her mouth - it didn't dawn on us to check to make sure she had swallowed.) Her stubborness and willpower has really surprised us. I realize her throat was/is very sore from the surgery, and I'm sure it was really painful for her to swallow her meds (or anything, for that matter). So I can understand why she was refusing to swallow her meds (that, and the fact that the Tylenol w/ codeine that the doctor prescribed smelled and tasted HORRIBLE). Our dilemma is DH and I were debating whether the fact that she was refusing to take her meds was something to discipline her for or not. On one hand, we understood that it was painful and uncomfortable for her to take her meds, and I really can't blame her for not wanting to take the Tylenol because the smell alone made me gag. On the other hand, she NEEDED to finish her abx so we could get the infection cleared up, and it is our responsibility as parents to make sure she gets her meds and basically takes care of her health. (I wasn't so concerned about her not taking her pain meds as I was about finishing the abx, although I certainly wanted to control her post-op pain to the best of my ability.) As luck turned out, we took her back to the doctor yesterday to get her ears checked and the infection has not cleared up (I wonder how much of this has to do with the fact that she refused to finish her last round of abx), so now we have to start another 10-day round of abx. I told the doctor about her stubborness and refusal to take her meds, so they prescribed something that only has to be taken once a day (instead of 2-3 times a day) so that will help somewhat - we only have to go through this struggle once a day. But it still makes me wonder: what is the best way to deal with a stubborn preschool-age child who refused to take their medicine, when they NEED it? As a parent who is responsible for your child's health, would you have used discipline to get your child to take his/her meds? If so, what kind of discipline? We tried offering lots of praise and encouragement - that didn't work. We tried restricting privileges - that didn't work. ("I don't want to (insert privilege).") We tried bribery - that didn't work. My husband even told DD that she had to sit in time-out until she took her meds - she was happy to sit there. What would you have done?

BTW, they use the "Stop and Think" system at my DD's preschool/daycare. It seems to work well. DD can tell us that she was put in time-out because she made a bad choice, or that she got praised for making a good choice.

[Bernie & Matt]

I like the Love and Logic approach to things, but it doesn't always work. I try to give LOTS AND LOTS of choices for things that I don't mind giving up "the power" over and reserving my power trump card for the biggies. Often I'll say, "Would you like to wear the red hat or the green hat?" and the implication is that "You're wearing a hat today, but you pick the color." If I get a no as a response, then it becomes "Do you want to pick the color or should Mommy pick the color?" And then I have to follow through, which can be tough. But for the most part, it heads off any conflict before it starts.

As for tantrums, we allow them on one condition: It has to be done in your room. If DS wants to cry, we let him, but remind him that he needs to do it in his room. So the choice becomes either stop crying or go cry in your room. Depending on his mood, he'll do it on his own, do it with a prompt or two, or we do the 1-2-3 at which time he either goes by himself or we carry him up there. We've only had to carry him twice. It seems to work well in eliminating the tantrums AND giving him a place to be mad without disturbing others.

This approach works 90% of the time, plus I think my children are pretty good natured to begin with. But there are other behaviors that are starting to creep in that my strategy won't always work for. For one, stealing a toy out of another kid's hand. Or refusing to apologize after hurting someone. Or hitting (gently) or batting (again, gently). For the most part, they're not biggies or happen often, but when they do, I don't quite know how to react. I'm still working on something to do for situations that aren't preventable, so to speak.

[Bernie & Matt]

what is the best way to deal with a stubborn preschool-age child who refused to take their medicine, when they NEED it? As a parent who is responsible for your child's health, would you have used discipline to get your child to take his/her meds? If so, what kind of discipline?

I don't have an answer for this one, but I'd love to find a solution. We're on day 5 of abx and the med is AWFUL! Unfortunately, it has become an episode of Friends gone horribly wrong. Picture the gang trying to give Rachel her eye drops and that's what it looks like :rolleyes: :o

[Renrel]

Just wanted to check in with our progress/issues/ect.

I think DS wants us to be more consistent then we have been. He will run off to his room when he gets upset that we are being "mean" and then I will hear him mumbling to himself about not wanting a time out but we have not given one. He sort of knows he deserves one and I think he wants firmer boundries about when they will happen. I know I need to be better but half the time I don't register that there is really an issue because I am not as bothered about some stuff as I think I should be for his own good and a quarter of the time I am too tired to carry though on what I know I should do, or I am not sure this is a punishable offense.

I have noticed a few times when I clearly stated that there would be a consquence for some behavor and the behavior happened DS did not fuss about the consquence. He was not happy but he did not cry and whine, he was quiet and withdrawn until the consquence passed. One consquence was losing out on getting a video or tv at home because he kept yelling "go" in the car when there were red lights or cars in front of us. I am so scared that he is doing to do this one day and the drive is going to pull into traffic because that is what I have almost done several time. I think when he got his consquence he actually had forgotten because he had stopped and then we reached another light a few minutes later but he did not argue with me about it.

I have also been struggling with when hitting = time out. DS rarely hits in anger, he is usually being playful. His is a boy and getting more physical as he get older. Where does rough houseing end and violence begin? I sometime playfully tap on his body, like a tap on his bottom, not a punishment of any kind, just something I might do if he is climbing over my lap. I think maybe I need to stop this kind of interaction but I find it hard to not touch him in a manner which we both know to be affectionate not hurtful.

I did give him a time out the other day because I specificly told him not to hit me again even though it was just being playful and he did. He was very unhappy but when it was over he told me appoligized and I had not even thought of asking him to do so.

Anyway that is some of what is going on in our corner of the preschool world. There is more I am sure but that is what comes to mind at the moment.

[emschwar]

We're having behavior problems right now. Noah's being a total handful and refusing to listen. (To the point where if you ask him if he's listening, he'll tell you no.) Today, when I picked him up from school, he ran out into the street and would not stop or hold my hand no matter what I threatened. We have problems at home, problems when we're running errands, everywhere (but he's perfectly behaved at school :rolleyes: ).

We try to be consistant. Right now, when he's misbehaving or not listening, I tell him to stop, or to do whatever I need him to do, and then there's a consequence. He knows about the consequence before I enforce it (I'll tell him something like "Noah, if you don't get over here by the time I count to 3, I'm going to take your thomas toy away"). Hitting gets an immediate time out, though it usually takes several counts to 3 (and removal of toys) before he'll actually sit for the time out, so that the time out is sometimes 5 minutes removed from the crime.

This morning was particularly delightful. I asked him to come sit down so I could put his shoes on. He wouldn't. I asked again. He wouldn't. I told him he had until I got to 3 to come over and get his shoes on, or I was going to take away his thomas toy (he just got it yesterday and loves it). I counted to 3. I went to take away the toy, and he flipped, so I gave him another chance. He still didn't sit down by the time I got to 3, so I took the toy away. Then he hit me. Then he got a time out. But he wouldn't sit. So I told him if he wasn't in the chair by the time I got to 3, I was taking away another toy. He still didn't sit. Repeat ad nauseum. He got 4 toys taken away, I think and hit me again on the 4th one. At that point, I lost it and swatted him on the tush, which I'm not proud of, though it did have an effect (he stopped disobeying, started crying, and finally sat down). While he was sitting in time out, I put his shoes on. Then we had to head out the door to school. (This isn't a reaction to something at school - he loves school, and usually can't wait to go. Once we got to school he was 100% fine.) I had to force him into his coat, then physically carry him out the door. It was a nightmare. I almost threatened that he wouldn't get to go to school if he didn't cooperate, but that wasn't a punishment I was willing to carry out (because I NEEDED him at school - I had errands I had to run and I needed to be away from him after that).

I'm really not sure what to do with him. He's usually such a well behaved kid, but now he will not listen and it's driving me crazy. (Probably doesn't help that I'm 18 weeks pg, still suffering from m/s, hormonal and bitchy and have a really short fuse right now, not to mention exhausted.) Any ideas? He'd better shape up soon, or I'm selling him to the circus. ;)

[bluebunny]

I know this is for preschoolers and my DS is only two but I like to read ahead. ;)
emschwar, that sounds so frustrating! When you are pregnant and tired, toddler/preschooler behavior is especially draining. I don't have a child Noah's age so take my advice with a grain of salt. I'm trying to give choices to DS and use logical consequences. For instance, in the shoe situation I would say, "DS, it is time to put on shoes. Do you want to put them on or do you want me to put them on?" If he does not start putting them on, I'll say, "I'm going to count to 3, if you haven't started putting on your shoes by the time I get to 3 then I will put them on for you."

I probably would not take away a toy unless the toy is the issue, i.e, using it to hit. So for instance, if I was asking for DS to come to me I would say, "DS, come over here. Either you walk with your own feet or I can carry you." That way, he has a choice about it.
Hitting/kicking is an immediate time out, like you do. I have found that DS will not sit still so I end up taking him up to his room and putting him on his bed and then I guard the door. He usually is so upset about being taken to his room that he complies.

[emschwar]

We've hit 3, and we've hit it hard. Noah's a total handful. Seriously, it just took us 45 minutes of screaming and time outs to get him in bed, and there was no bath involved. I'm not even sure his teeth really got brushed in all that.

Can someone recommend some discipline books? I checked 1-2-3 Magic out of the library, and I've skimmed the first couple of chapters, and I'm not sure it's for us. I agree with time outs, but I'm not sure I agree with his "no discussion" philosophy. Maybe I just need to try it and see if it'll work for us, but I'm curious what else is out there. Because what we're doing now just ain't working.

[jeggink]

Sigh, I need to read along in this thread, Joseph is almost 32 mths now and has been a handfull all his short life and now is no different. It's amazing how much they can test you to see what they can get away with!

[jjsanner]

I can totally relate, ladies!

DS is almost 3 1/2 and we are having terrible discipline issues right now. I have been way too lax in the discipline department, and I am just now starting to realize that my actions (or lack thereof) have done him a huge disservice. I threaten till the cows come home, but rarely follow through, which has sent the message that he can get away with murder. For example, tonight, almost an hour after we had put him down, I heard him playing with his doorknob. I went into his room and told him very sternly that it was time to go to bed and to not get up again, or he would get his fish tank light turned off. He got back into bed easily, so I left him alone. About 5 minutes later, I heard him at the door again. Trying to stay true to my word, I went in and turned the light off. He started screaming and throwing the biggest fit, I just could not handle it so I turned the light back on. By some miracle he was asleep when I checked on him 15 minutes later, but really, how was that helping him realize the error of his ways?

The good news is that I now understand that I must take a firmer stand. I'm going to be the bad guy sometimes, but I do think that he will end up a better person for it in the end. And I suppose it will eventually make my life easier as well.

Let me tell you, working full time, being 18 weeks pregnant and taking care of a toddler is almost doing me in.

[ButterflyJen]

I'm joining in and subscribing, even though DD won't be 3 until August. I've hit the end of my patience with her. She simply does.not.listen to a word I say. I don't know if I'm/we're going overboard on discipline or what, but honestly, everything is a fight anymore. She doesn't sleep for crap, so I know she's probably overtired (and that doesn't help). She also doesn't eat for crap, so again, hunger may be part of the issue.

I am SO tired of fighting with my child. And she's not even three yet! I just don't know what to do. We've tried counting (1-2-3, then take away toy/privilege, etc). Doesn't work. We've tried timeouts, but not consistently. The only thing that works with her is threatening to close her door. She HATES having her door closed and will absolutely throw a fit if we close it on her. So, we don't.

We did have another baby in February, and her behavior towards us has been nightmarish since then...but I don't know what I can do about it. It's not like her baby sister is going back. ;)

Today she lied to me about something, and I had no idea what to do. I told her that it wasn't OK to lie, and since this was the first time, we would just talk about it. But next time, there would be consequences. What consequences are good for lying? I have no clue!

Ugh. If it's this bad NOW, I want to run away before she hits the preteen/teenage years. ;)

[emschwar]

Hugs, Jen! I've been there (minus the baby thing). Just my perspective, but counting never worked for us. Not until we tried the stuff in 123 magic. Honestly, I really don't know why it's different, but that works so much better than the counting I was doing before!

[Renrel]

Just venting a bit. DS is really testing us at the moment and I am often at a lose how to deal. He is trying to find the fine line and it gives me a headache trying to figure out for myself where it is. Stupid things like saying "plea... and not adding the se. Or making "p" sounds to see if I will say he is spitting and give him a time out. Sooo gosh darn annoying. I hate giving him time outs for nonsense and I don't like getting into a battle of who can be more stubborn, which is what many of these feel like. Yet we need to make sure DS respects that we are the parents and that he needs to listen to us, which is something he has trouble with. It is not so much that he does not respect us but that he feels that we all should get the same respect. We should have to listen to him the same way he has to listen to us or his teachers. He should be able to touch us in anyway we touch him. (If I playfully pat his bottom or take a pretend bite out of his ear or tummy then he should be able to do this to me as well.) . When we don't do what he wants he complains bitterly that "we are not listening to his words", "we are being rude." "he does not appreciate our attitude." "He won't be our friend anymore." "No one will want to play with us if we can't play nice." ect. And of course the lovely "You don't love me anymore" which I always feel the need to counter with an explaination that I do and a hug, but not a change in my stance. And then there are the negotiations and compromises that we end up getting into. I know this is a stage and that we have to get through it and that we need to be firm and fair but it is gosh darn exhausting. And having a bright kid makes it worse because he makes very compelling arguments as well as interesting compromises that sound so reasonable in the moment but which may be threatening our parently authority in the long run.

[Koala_Gurl]

...Hitting warrants an immediate time out. If Noah's dawdling too much at bedtime, he loses his stories. Those are the only things I can think of right now, but I know there are other offenses in our house.

Same here...

Most behaviors get a time out, except bedtime related ones...since DD would actually prefer to go to TO than bed. For bedtime, we use the loss of a story. I had to follow through once, and I don't think I will again for a while (I think she screamed at the top of her lungs for at least 15 minutes that time.)

[Renrel]

Today DS had a major melt down at the end of school because something was not right about the last page of a book he made and the teacher and I could not figure out what he thought was wrong and now to fix it. It was total over reaction, throwing himself on the floor and refusing to leave. I ended up having to carry him out when I am not supposed to be lifting him because of a bad shoulder. In the car he would not get in his seat. So I told him he had a count of 5 to be in his seat or he would lose his car snack. He lost his car snack because he had to test me and not put his tushie into the seat. So the rest of the trip was him trying to get his car snack back. Most of the techniques I have heard before. He won't be my friend anymore, I am being rude, I am not allowed to take away his snack, he won't listen to a song if he does not get his snack, kicking the seat, ect. Eventually he tried something new. He said he was sorry. It was so tempting to give him since he almost never says sorry but I felt that would make sorry a free ticket out of any consequence and undermine the intention to change his behavior. He repeated tried this one and really thought I was terribly unfair not to take away the penality if he said sorry.

[Renrel]

Vent and sharing so others know they are not the only ones, at least I hope we are not the only ones.

It continued to be a long day. At bedtime DS decided he wanted to sleep in the glider. We have never made a big deal about where in his room he wants to sleep. His crib, his mattress on the floor, on the floor, and lately we have found him in the glider few times. So that was not a problem. But he was leaning over the ottoman and rocking it back and forth. The prior morning I had found the ottoman on its side and I was worried he would accidently let it fall on his foot and also that he might break it (It has a slide out foot rest thing for nursing) so I told him to stop. He kept ignoring me, so I took the ottoman out of the room. For two hours he cryed, cogoled (sp), yelled, and tried to negotiate to get it back. He came out of his room repeatly. It was very hard to stick to my guns when he calmly came out, promised to use it the right way and explained that he needed it so that he would not fall out of the glider. I could see his point about falling out, but had to remind myself that he had the option of sleeping someplace else in his room. He ended up sleeping on the floor right in front of the glider. I told him repeatedly he would get another chance tonight to show me that he could use the ottoman the right way. I hope it goes better tonight.

Preschool has rules about not touching each other bodies. There are exceptions but he keeps insisting that mommy and daddy are not allowed to touch his body. If we put a hand on his back to urge him along he insists we pushed him, sometime even throwing himself on the floor, and insists we say sorry. The same sort of thing for forcing him to get dressed, put on his shoes, leave the house, get in the car seat. So exhausting. Luckily he is not always resisting what he needs to do, but we are trying to change our way of disciplining him to teach him that when we say it is time to do something he wil understand that he has to do it NOW. Not in five minutes, not after he stacks some blocks, not after he looks at the book he just noticed, now. We have been giving him warnings that in 5 minutes he must do X but I tend to let him go longer to finish whatever he is in the middle of and DH is insisting I have to stop that because he does just not get that when we say things in a certain way or certain tone of voice it means he really must obey right away. I like to do things in a more accommodating, fun manner but I see his point that my way is not working so well anymore.