Preschool or no preschool?? [Archive]

Renrel

01-17-2007, 07:22 PM

My mom teachs 4yo and my son is in an all day preschool at age 3 as much for the daycare requirement as the benefit he gets, so take what I have to say with a grain of salt. I know I am not the kind of mom you wanted to most hear from. But I can tell you why I favor preschool and if my reasons don't ring true to what you want/need/believe then you have some of your answer. I am not trying to tell you what I think you should do, I have no idea, but explaining some of why I am doing what I do.

I think that there is more expected in kindergarden these days. With the no child left behind program there is alot of pressure on teachers and kids to perform up to certain levels for "the test." Kids seem to be expected to know their letters and number and shapes and colors before they get to kindergarden, where this used to be where they were taught. They will still teach these things but if all the other kids have these skills already than less time will be spent on it and your child, if they are not competent at these skills may feel incompetent and that self image could effect other learning. But you can of course teach these skills at home. I think my son learned them more from me than from preschool, but the were well reinforced at school. (His school is not very academicly focused, they have a few games and songs and such that help with these skills but most of the day is about learning through different kinds of play. They do not sit at desks and do workbooks or anything like that.)

Learning how to get along in a group of peers, without mom or dad there to referee is very valuable. Sharing toys, standing up for oneself, entering a group of kids already engaged in some game, negotiating for the way you want a game to be played. These are skills that kids usually need to be in a school type setting to learn. a playgroup where there is pretty much a one to one ratio of adult to child is unlikely tgive the social learing experience that a class room where of 15 kids and 2-3 teachers is going to. The sooner kids learn these skills to more confident I think they are likely to be in their interpersonal skills. And learning these skills is bumpy. There is a period of feeling left out, unsure of oneself and scared. You can do it now or later, but sooner or later you have to go through it. I think kids in preschool will be less intimidating then kids in Kindergarden, especially if most of the kindergardeners in a class have been in preschool or daycare for a year or more. The teachers in preschool have more time and experience in helping kids through this kind of stuff than kindergarden teachers who are expected to teach acadamic stuff and who have a higher kid to teacher ratio.

Learning the displine of a classroom is important to school success. That there are times for play and times for work. How to line up, take a partner, find your seat, ask to go potty, only play with toys that are "open", wait for snack times to eat, raise your hand, wait your turn to speak, sit down so the person behind you can see, ect. They used to teach this stuff in Kindergarden but I think many kindergarden teachers these days expect kids to have been taught this stuff in preschool.

These are my impressions though. They are not based on research or experience and they may be alot of hooie. And what each child is ready for at each age is different. You know your child best. You also know what you are managing to teach her at home and what kind of group activities you do with her. A dance or gym class where she gets dropped off may fulfill a lot of the same functions, though not on as intense a basis. And different preschools will offer different benefits and draw backs.

Also preschool is often only half a day, a few days a week, while kindergarden is either a half or full day, all week. It may be easier to transition into the seperation school will mean by starting with preschool. This may be easier on you as well as her.

I Hope my thoughts have helped rather than confused or pressured you. If I have caused any harmor hard feelings with my post, I sincerely apoligize. It was not my intent.

JennZ

01-18-2007, 07:18 AM

Renrel-
Thank you so much for taking the time to write such a thoughtful post. I truly appreciate it!
I have pretty much decided to go ahead and sign her up, so perhaps I was also looking for reassurance that it was the right decision.
Thanks again!!
Jennifer

Renrel

01-18-2007, 09:09 AM

Glad you found my musing helpful. It sounded like you were looking more for affirmation from someone who chose not to use preschool, so I was not sure you really wanted to hear my pro-preschool thoughs, especially since I have a younger child and am not a SAHM, thus coming from a different place than you are. I hope you find a program that meets you needs and desires and that you and you DD both get more joy than sadness out of those hours of seperation time, should you decided to go with the preschool.

emschwar

01-18-2007, 01:00 PM

I think there was an article in the most recent issue of Parents about why preschool is important.

I'd recommend preschool, if nothing else than for the socialization skills and to get used to being away from Mom before kindergarten starts. But, kindergartens are expecting a lot more from kids than they used to, and preschool will help her be ready for K.

magdesilver

01-19-2007, 10:30 AM

I think at least a year of preschool is a good thing. Most kids these days have been going to some type of program for at least 2 years (part time or full time) by the time they hit kindergarten. There is so much more than academics that come into play. I taught kindergarten one year (it was in a lower income area) and out of my class of 23 kids, 19 had never been in a school setting. It was a very difficult transition for many of them- they weren't used to the structure of the day (we had full-day kindergarten, I'd imagine a half day program would be even more structured because you are more pressed for time), lining up, taking turns with non-relatives, etc. It was about the most difficult year of teaching I had ever experienced compared with previous years when virtually all of my students had been to preschool.

mamax2

01-19-2007, 11:03 AM

From what I've observed/heard, pre-school today is like kindergarten when we were growing up. IOW, the expectations on children entering kingergarten are so much greater than when we were kids, I feel my DD would be at a disadvantage NOT to attend pre-k at least part-time.

For us, the decision is largely based on helping DD develop emotionally. She does NOT want to go to school and be separated from me all day and since our kindergarten is a full-day program, I just feel like it would be too much culture shock, kwim? A year of going to a half-day pre-k will help her get warmed up to the idea instead of just throwing her to the wolves, well, at least that's how I see it. If we had 1/2 day kindergarten still, I might be tempted to skip pre-k, I'm not sure.

maggieb

01-19-2007, 11:05 AM

I see preschool as a transition to K, which is full day here in DC. I also firmly believe that preschool is very important for kids for socialization and to get time away from the primary caregiver. Helena is a December birthday and will be one of the oldest in her K class, so she's going to get two years of preschool!

You may want to look into a cooperative preschool, where the parents are highly involved nad help the teacher teach the class maybe once a week. Co-ops are also less expensive, but still high quality.

linda_loo

01-19-2007, 04:42 PM

From what I've observed/heard, pre-school today is like kindergarten when we were growing up. IOW, the expectations on children entering kingergarten are so much greater than when we were kids, I feel my DD would be at a disadvantage NOT to attend pre-k at least part-time.

That is exactly what I have heard. We seriously considered not sending dd to preschool, but we ended up sending her. (so, I realize this isn't really the answer you were looking for) I reasoned that if she didn't go to preschool, we would need to provide more socialization opportunities for her, and invest in some homeschooling materials.

After a lot of pro/con making, and the luck of finding a fabulous place that fit us well, we decided to send her.

lorbo

01-19-2007, 10:33 PM

i've heard the same argument from my own sister about preschool teaching stuff that kindergarten will build on...that said...i just had the parent-teacher conference with DD's nursery school teacher and her feelings toward DD were-she's ready for this, this and prekindergarten...wherever i feel most comfortable sending her. i came right out and said i don't want to send her to a 5/d week program...because i want her to enjoy preschool and...her kindergarten is in a school district where they go to school full days...and that's a recent change:eek: i can't imagine full day kindergarten...but she's got a whole year more to go until then... i agree with the socialization and other points as well...times have changed since i went to kindergarten!

tracer

01-20-2007, 08:10 AM

I am also a mom that is all for preschool so take my words knowing that. My son's b-day is Oct 22. In CA the cut off in school is mid Dec, which is much later than most other states. So my DS started pre-school when he was two and turned three shortly thereafter. He was ready for something more than what he was doing. His preschool is two days a week 9am to 2pm. Most of the younger kids get picked up about 1pm to go home and take good naps. The nap period at school is about 30 minutes. My DS at 3.5 still naps for 2.5 hours a day. So he really only goes to preschool eight hours a week. Enough for him and enough for me. We also have to pay for pre-school here. We also had to camp out two days to get him into the program he is in. They do plays, family feasts on top of the everyday program they offer. Not only has DS grown academically but maturely. It has been one of the best decisions we made. Next year he will go three days a week and the year after he will go four days and be in a transitional kindergarten class. It is also my understand from my friends that are teachers that kindergarten is quite difficult if the children have not been in pres-chool or pre-k before. It is not a requirement but they highly recommend it. In another year we will have two in pre-school and it will cost us a lot, but it is worth it for us.

When I was younger I never went to pre-k or pre-school. I was in daycare with my grandma. I was a straight A student and envolved with many extra ciricular activities. I did not have a problem. The systems are so different now. Kids are on computers in first grade, in private schools out here they are doing typed book reports in second grade. The demand on kids these days is high and the tolerance of teachers is lower because they have so much to teach and get it the school year. They can't take their time like they used to. That being said, it helps to have your child prepared for what they will experience than go it there not really having a clue. It even just comes down to basics...will they know what to do with their jacket and backpack? Will they understand they need to sit in their chair and listen to the teacher? Will seperation be an issue? I highly look up to those who do daycare but it isn't the same experience as preschool is for the kids. I am a SAHM and although it is expensive, I am all for pre-school.

I agree with everything Renrel wrote and it sounds like you have made your choice. Great choice Jennz!!! Plus, you'll enjoy the little break and then you get to ask them a million questions. WHat did you do today? Who did you play with? Did you get to be line leader? What letter did you learn and what sounds does it make. Really cool stuff and conversations that you really get to enjoy. Oh and they come home with the funniest sayings!!!:)

twainny

01-21-2007, 11:22 AM

My DS is only 22 months, so not ready for pre-school. There is a boy at his daycare who is going to go to kindergarten this coming fall, without attending pre-school. I do not know how is he is going to get a long. DS goes to an in-home daycare, so there is no structure at all. I really want to send my DS to preschool, when the time comes, but I don't know how I would deal with 1/2 days, since it isn't like I can leave work to go get him and take him to daycare. I haven't looked into full day preschools yet. I know that in this area it is VERY expensive.

I am glad that you have decided to send you DD to pre-school, I am sure she will enjoy it!

Renrel

01-21-2007, 02:34 PM

Interesting. Though I do favor preschool I was hoping there would be a mom or two with an argument against, other than they can't afford to pay for it, to provide some balance. I would assume that preschool is not necessarily always the best thing for every child.

Bernie & Matt

01-21-2007, 03:43 PM

I don't know how I would deal with 1/2 days, since it isn't like I can leave work to go get him and take him to daycare.

I haven't figured out how this is going to work for us yet, but this was our major concern as well. Most of the places I've called offer preschool in the morning combined with daycare before and after. I think that's the route we're going to have to go.

mommydearest

01-21-2007, 05:32 PM

Here is my take on preschool--

What will the child be doing at home during that time?

My friend was against pre-school and didn't want to send her 3 year old son because she was sure that she could teach him the same things at home. But, during the pre-school time, her son watched TV, hung around the house, and didn't do much while mom did wash, was on the computer, paid bills, etc. She enrolled him three days a week during the second semester after my mom gave her a guilt trip about him not learning the social skills, and literally he would get mad on days he didn't get to go to school because he loved it so much. I think it is pretty much expected that when your child enters kindergarden, he/she has been to preschool, and if affording it is the problem, you might talk to local church schools and/or Head Start.

AlisonCO

01-21-2007, 07:43 PM

Another pro-preschool mom who agrees with everything that has been said. I wanted to add that when I was teaching my good friend was the Kindergarten teacher and I will always remember what she told me about the first day with a new class. She said that the first day she could tell the kids who had gone to preschool and those that had been read to.

Franni

01-22-2007, 10:09 AM

I am a former preschool teacher who is wondering now if I should send DD to preschool. I used to also run a gifted-and-talented program along with the "regular" class. My DH put forth a very good argument (he was straight A student at a magnet school, ivy leaguer, etc, etc and NEVER attended preschool - he headed straight to 1st grade). There is a very short span of time in our kids' lives where they are just kids, when they play in an unstructured way and discover things spontaneously. How can I counter that? I am not sure it is enough of an argument to say that she will learn socialization and following rules. Isn't that what the rest of her life will be, "learning to get along" and "walk by a thin straight line"? Isn't there any benefit to her, for a short span of time, just to be allowed to be?

That being said, DD knows half of a typical preschool curiculum already. She has structure at home and has "rules".

AllisonCo FWIW, I used to say what your teacher friend says about being able to tell the difference between a preschool-ed kid and not. I am not sure if the difference now is so staggering. Most of the "non-preschool" kids usually catch up fairly quickly, especially if they have had attention from their parents/caregivers at home.

MommydearestIn your friend's case, I think the parent would have to be honest with how much time they will really be able to spend with his/her child. My DD's day is not structured down to every hour, but since I work, I make sure that she had an hour or 2 daily when she gets my full attention. I turn off the phone. I don't cook, clean, tidy-up. It's all just her. We play games, do crafts, dance, sing, read. Within every activity, she is learning something (be it letters, numbers, fine motor skills, gross motor skills, concepts like same and different, etc).

I don't know if the above is really enough of argument to keep kids out of preschool but I am still very much on the fence about the issue. I would like to be able to answer my own questions above and be at peace with my decision either way.

emschwar

01-22-2007, 10:23 AM

maggieb

01-22-2007, 10:39 AM

I was just going to type a response, but I can see that I don't need to...Emily said exactly what I wanted to say, but in a more eloquent way!

emschwar

01-22-2007, 10:53 AM

Dude, I said something eloquent? That may be the first time ever! ;)

Franni

01-22-2007, 11:10 AM

maggieb

01-22-2007, 11:19 AM

I just attended a preschool Open House that completely believes that kids should be kids and their curriculum is child emergent curriculum..meaning that if the kids want to learn more about purses, then that's the focus. It's part of the Reggio Emilia philosophy.

Not every school out there is focused on test taking. You just have to search for them. I am an elementary school teacher and firmly believe that there are schools out there that fit my beliefs about education and children. Another type of school that will focus on the child are Dewey schools, but I don't think they are as prevalent. Just have to search for them.

Want to post more, but Marisa is crying and waking up from her nap.

OK, she's asleep again. Anyway, I would say that preparation for preschool, if any is needed, is interaction with other kids on a sporadic basis. Maybe a playgroup or daycare or having friends over to your house periodically. Ultimately, I believe that my children need to be taught to be a functioning member of society and I'll bet everyone else does too. The difference is in that definition of what makes a functioning member.

Sorry, I can get really philisophical about all of this.

Oh, and Emily...congratulations on teh second pregnancy! Noah will make a great big brother.

emschwar

01-22-2007, 11:23 AM

emschwar Just playing Devil's advocate here because I know my DH will come up with something like this and I need to get ready for what he will throw at me when we talk again about to preschool or not, so here goes....Someone actually made mention of it here also, but I am too lazy to search out who. The school atmosphere nowadays is so geared towards "achievement" (ie good grades, good test scores, etc). How could kids be allowed to just be kids when they have to be good test takers? When there are scores that need to be met? When there are standards to uphold? Some of our preschools and K here require kids to go through an interview process or a verbal exam.

Going back to your point about teaching through play - I agree with that 100%. However I don't think preschool is the only place where that can be achieved. In addition, I really can't think of any activity that I wouldn't allow kids to do at my home that a preschool would allow them to do.

The essense of DH's point (I think) - Why does one need to be "prepared" for K? Isn't K supposed to be the preparation for 1st grade? If every grade level needs preparation, then what prepares kids for preK?

Well, without a long winded tirade agains standardized tests (don't get me started there), I think you'll be hard pressed to find a *good* preschool geared towards achievement. There may be some, and they may even pretend their good, but any child development expert will tell you that's not a good school.

Preschool definitely isn't the only place where you can learn through play. But I think having a different teacher than mom is beneficial. First, preschool may do an activity you just didn't think of. Or they may notice talents/weaknesses you wouldn't. Not to mention the social aspect of school, and learning from others.

Not so long ago, one didn't need to be prepared for K. But now you do. I think not sending a child to preschool and just expecting them to be prepared for K is doing them a disservice. The fact is that now, you're expected to have *some* skills before you go into K, and you'd get those skills in pre-k. Whether it's pre-k at a school or homeschooled, they're skills that need to be worked on so kids aren't floundering when they get to K.

(Hope that didn't come off too strong. I certainly didn't mean it to)

mamax2

01-22-2007, 11:25 AM

There is a very short span of time in our kids' lives where they are just kids, when they play in an unstructured way and discover things spontaneously. How can I counter that? I am not sure it is enough of an argument to say that she will learn socialization and following rules. Isn't that what the rest of her life will be, "learning to get along" and "walk by a thin straight line"? Isn't there any benefit to her, for a short span of time, just to be allowed to be?

Why does one need to be "prepared" for K? Isn't K supposed to be the preparation for 1st grade? If every grade level needs preparation, then what prepares kids for preK?

Actually, Franni, I 'get' your/DH's point entirely, because it's very similar to how I feel inside. I want my DD to play, I want her to have fun and I want her to get used to taking direction from someone outside of her family. I feel like the world really is too fast and I don't want to rush her to grow up. That's a really big part of why I didn't send her to school at 3 and I'm waiting until she's 4.

At the same time, I don't have a desire to unschool or even homeschool my children, so at some point, they will enter a traditional school environment. At that time, I don't want my DD to be behind the other kids either academically or emotionally (I'm not worried about social skills at all - we are very active in playgroups, story time, etc.). I'm afraid that if she's behind, she'll struggle more and possibly be held back or worse, school will become something she doesn't enjoy.

I HATE that schools have become testing factories. I worry every day that my child will be stifled in that type of environment. However, I always cirlce back to the fact that, at some point, that is just the reality and I have to prepare her to meet reality.

IF my area offered more in terms of affordable alternative educational choices, like Charter Schools, etc., I can see myself pursuing that route. So far, our only alternative school is Montessori-based and only goes to 1st grade. I don't want to put DD in a school like that for 1-2 years, then drop her back in public school where she's ill-equipped to succeed in that model.

It really is a tough decision, isn't it?!

Franni

01-22-2007, 12:14 PM

emschwar Definitely didn't come on strong at all. You and i are on the same side, but I am having trouble getting the ammunition to fight DH on this one. He and his friends/classmates grew up at a time when preK was not necessary. In fact, none of them went to Prek or K. What you have said actually fires DH up even more. Since there wasn't a need in the good ole days, why is there a need now? Thus this need must have been fueled by what he views as parents who want their kids to just be "better" than their peers. It doesn't help also when he meets with other parents who are pro-preschool and sees over-scheduled kids (ie dance class, gym, sign language class, etc etc) He sees this push to pre-educate our young as parents needing validation that they have the smartest kid on the block, a need for the PARENTS to get/stay ahead rather than a concern for the child.

Please keep your thought coming. I need all the help I can get here.

maggieb I don't think waiting to send kids to school would exclude them from becoming a functioning member of society. DH would contend that of his friends/classmates (most of which didn't go to any sort of prek or K) all of them excelled academically (all of them went to Harvard, MIT, Yale and the like) and are "functioning" members of society (ie doctors-to-be, teachers, financial analyst, CTOs, lawyers). So what's the difference? The contention is really just waiting to send DD into the school system rather than totally not send her at all (which is not an option)

mamax I actually don't believe in "home schooling" past pre-k and so does DH. That is definitely not his point at all. He agrees that DD would need to go out to the world, learn in a school environment. His only point is why so early? Why is preschool a necessity?

I agree with you that it is a really rough decision and one that obviously I have already had many many discussions about.

AlisonCO

01-22-2007, 01:35 PM

What an interesting discussion. I agree with so much that has been said. Personally I think that there is a difference between a one hour playgroup/gym class and 2.5 hours in a class away from mom and dad. I think for me preschool is a way to very slowly introduce my kids to school. In the fall DS will go twice a week for 2.5 hours, then the next year it will be three days a week for 3.5 hours. I just think that it would be such a shock to go from being home to being in K 5 days a week for 4 hours (many are all day.)

Most of the "non-preschool" kids usually catch up fairly quickly, especially if they have had attention from their parents/caregivers at home.

Interesting - I definetely think that parental involvement has very positive effects on all aspects of school.

At that time, I don't want my DD to be behind the other kids either academically or emotionally (I'm not worried about social skills at all - we are very active in playgroups, story time, etc.). I'm afraid that if she's behind, she'll struggle more and possibly be held back or worse, school will become something she doesn't enjoy.

This is how I feel also - except interestingly enough, I worry less about the academics and more about the social. I feel like I can do the academic stuff at home, but that I could never really replicate the structure/social interaction of a classroom environment.

JennZ

01-22-2007, 02:07 PM

Why does one need to be "prepared" for K? Isn't K supposed to be the preparation for 1st grade?

Those thoughts are EXACTLY why I started this thread!!

We do so many things at home, that I really don't feel DD is necessarily behind the curve in any way regarding structure or rules.
DD is four, DS1 is three and DS2 is 11 months, so we do tons of interactive activities that I truly believe are teaching sharing, taking turns, consequences, etc..
We have our own little preschool here- if you will! LOL :)

But seriously, once we start school, there is no turning back.
So that's why I thought maybe we could go straight to Kindergarten in Fall '08.

Would that really be so bad??!?

Uggghhh..............

This parenting thing is very stressful!! :eek:

Thanks for all your wonderful input and insight!

Also, just as a side note..
In our school district in TX, the child must be 5 by Sept. 1st to enter Kindergarten.
If you have a child that turns 5 between Sept. 2 and Dec. 31st, they will consider letting them start Kindergarten at 4. However, the child must be able to pass the 3rd grade TAKS Test. :confused:
WHAT?!?!? How ridiculous is that?
If my 4 year old could pass the 3rd grade TAKS Test, I would like her to be in 3rd grade please!
Very annoying!

mommydearest

01-22-2007, 02:53 PM

"DD is four, DS1 is three and DS2 is 11 months, so we do tons of interactive activities that I truly believe are teaching sharing, taking turns, consequences, etc..
We have our own little preschool here- if you will! LOL"

Yes and no. The difference is that in pre-school, someone other than mommy will be in charge, you will have to share the teacher with lots of kids, you have to get up, get dressed, and go there, you get to sing in the Christmas play (well, at most church pre-schools schools, anyway), you play with other kids whose mommies aren't there, you learn about circle time, you learn to sit quietly and to raise your hands sometimes, and you get to make your mommy presents and surprise her. Plus, you learn how to learn from people other than your parents in a larger group environment.

Yes, there is a lot of play involved. But mostly, you learn how to learn in a no-stakes environment, as opposed to kindergarten, where if you don't have these skills, you might be asked to repeat.

gizzyntaz

01-22-2007, 04:41 PM

Since there wasn't a need in the good ole days, why is there a need now? Thus this need must have been fueled by what he views as parents who want their kids to just be "better" than their peers. It doesn't help also when he meets with other parents who are pro-preschool and sees over-scheduled kids (ie dance class, gym, sign language class, etc etc) He sees this push to pre-educate our young as parents needing validation that they have the smartest kid on the block, a need for the PARENTS to get/stay ahead rather than a concern for the child.

Franni - My husband and I feel the same as your husband. I'm very disturbed by the fact that preschool is EXPECTED in our society, so much so that there have been threads on here about homeschooling preschool! Maybe it's a symptom of a bigger problem. It seems like it must be contributing to the difference between the "have's" and "have-not's" (preschool is expensive!).

Of course, even though I feel that way, I will be sending my son to preschool (part-time) for 2 years prior to kindergarten (at least that is the plan). I think he will really enjoy it, I think he'll benefit from the structured activities, and I think he'll need to get used to being on a schedule. I think it would be a disservice to him to send him off to full day(!) kindergarten without some transition. I plan on sending him to public school, so I have to be realistic about the expectations that it places on him.

I'm sure that socially (with respect to interaction with other children) and mentally (basic skills) he would be adequately prepared without preschool, but ultimately, I think he'll like it. If he doesn't, and he's getting enough additional structure and learning through Sunday School (he'll start at 3), then I probably wouldn't hesitate to pull him out.

emschwar

01-22-2007, 04:44 PM

My husband and I feel the same as your husband. I'm very disturbed by the fact that preschool is EXPECTED in our society, so much so that there have been threads on here about homeschooling preschool! Maybe it's a symptom of a bigger problem. It seems like it must be contributing to the difference between the "have's" and "have-not's" (preschool is expensive!).

I'm not sure that preschool has anything to do with the haves and have-nots. If anything, early childhood education in europe has shown how important preschool is for children. (There, many countries have FREE preschool for all kids ages 1-4. And loads of ECE research has been done there to show how valuable it is.) Let me see if I can dig up some links.

nylons73

01-22-2007, 04:56 PM

As a preschool teacher, of course I am for preschool :) I could go on for hours, but I won't. Many of the previous posters have mentioned all of the non-academic benefits that attending preschool provides.

I think I most clearly 'got' the benefit of preschool when we enrolled my step-son in a private school Kindergarden. He's sort of recently adopted by us. We were not involved in his pre-K education (which turned out to be nothing.) He's now repeating Kindergarden. Why? Because he didn't have any Pre-K. He was totally unprepared on how to act in a 'school' setting. He never learned to 'sit quietly' at circle time, he never learned how to interact at snack time (the first week he ate someone else's snack because he was hungry! ha ha) and he just didn't have a lot of the 'social norms' that the other kids (all of whom had attended pre-k) had. He was clearly a fish out of water.

If my husband and I had become involved in our step-son's life a year earlier, you bet your booties he would have been in Pre-K! Just learning how to interact with the world would have been helpful to him. Never mind that his Kindergarten is teaching him Spanish, Chinese and all sorts of other things! Ask your husband if any of his 'non pre-K attending' friends ever learned any of that (or were expected to) in Kindergarden! Education has changed because school has changed.

mamax2

01-22-2007, 05:22 PM

mamax I actually don't believe in "home schooling" past pre-k and so does DH. That is definitely not his point at all. He agrees that DD would need to go out to the world, learn in a school environment. His only point is why so early? Why is preschool a necessity?
:confused: Yeah, I know that wasn't your point, it was just part of my reasoning as to how I've reconciled some of this in my mind despite feeling, by and large, the way your husband does re: the fast-paced nature of our kids lives these days. Sorry if that was unclear.

I guess to sum it all up, you could just tell your DH that you're raising a child in 2007, not 1967 or 1977 (or whenever it was he was going to kindergarten). Whether you agree with it or not, our lives, our educational system HAS changed. You can either do what you need to do to be prepared and live within that model or you can sit around talking about the good ol' days. I'm sure there are kids who can skip pre-k and go to kindergarten and survive, but I'd bet there are more that can't. I think it's just the nature of the beast. Who knows, maybe 20-30 years from now, there will be some movement not to start school till you're 7, till then I guess we each do what we think will set our kids up to succeed in the current situation.

I mean, if you really want to stretch and talk about later teaching kids about sex ed, drugs, etc., well, there's a TON of stuff schools teach now that wasn't taught when I was growing up. It's really the same sort of concept, right? I feel badly that there has been a lose of innocence for our children, but I'm trying to be realistic and live in today, not yesterday, kwim?

gizzyntaz

01-23-2007, 06:19 AM

emschwar

01-23-2007, 09:44 AM

Emily, perhaps in Europe it doesn't make a difference, but in our country it certainly does. If it is such an expectation, then perhaps there should be public pre-k across this country. I'm sure some communities have opportunities for low-income (or even middle-income, for that matter) children to attend preschool for free, but certainly not all of them do. So then the lower income students are already at a disadvantage when they start K? It's not right.

Sorry, Alison, I misunderstood what you meant by the haves and have-nots and preschool. You're absolutely right - there should be pre-k programs for children of all socioeconomic levels. Head Start is fairly prevalent, but certainly not enough. If anything, preschool is more beneficial for underpriviledged kids than it is for middle/upper class children (in general).

mamax2

01-23-2007, 11:18 AM

If it is such an expectation, then perhaps there should be public pre-k across this country. I'm sure some communities have opportunities for low-income (or even middle-income, for that matter) children to attend preschool for free, but certainly not all of them do. So then the lower income students are already at a disadvantage when they start K? It's not right.
gizzyntaz ~ I see that you're in Maryland too, I think *most* of our public schools DO offer pre-k. It's a grant-funded program and it's specifically designed to give priority to children who are most in need of pre-k. I can't remember all of the criteria, but some of it was:
- annual household income
- whether both parents reside in the home
- if English is the primary language spoken in the home
- if the child has an IEP/IDP

At any rate, it is designed to first serve those who are at a disadvantage. I'm really proud that MD offers that type of program. I'm also lucky in that my particular district has a large pre-k program, so even though we don't meet the pre-selection criteria, there will most likely be room left over for my DD if we choose to send her to this public school.

If you want more info on our state's public pre-k options, here's a good link: MD Division of Early Childhood Development (http://www.marylandpublicschools.org/MSDE/divisions/child_care/)

eta: I just realized your post was re: opportunities nationwide, so maybe you were already aware of the MD programs - hope I wasn't being repetitive.

helen22

01-23-2007, 02:36 PM

Franni, I like where your DH is coming from philisophically, but I think it's just tough to argue that replicating our experiences growing up is always the best thing for our kids. To take an extreme example (trying to give you some arguments here!) my parents brought me home from the hospital in a cardboard box - seriously. They are both well-educated people, but there was no sense at the time that babies belong in carseats. I guess it's great that my parents were so laid-back, but am I going to do that with DD? well, of course not. And if you and your DH are committed to sending your DD to kindergarten or first grade in a standard school system, why set her up for potential failure, just because he liked his "free" childhood so much?

also if you want more....this week's Time magazine has an article on "the hurried child" and whether the arguments about how stressed and over-scheduled are kids are today is really a bad thing. apparently most studies show that kids today are in better shape than kids 10/20/30 years ago (the statistics they looked at were things like teen suicide rates, drug use, pregnancy, etc.). not to suggest that an unscheduled childhood sets you up on the slippery slope to teen drug use :p but I thought it was interesting that schedules are not ALL bad, since the popular press usually argues exactly the opposite.

interesting topic!

Renrel

01-23-2007, 03:38 PM

Franni - You might do some research on what it took to get into a "good" college 12 year ago, compare that to what it takes today and estrapolate(sp) that DD will need to show even more, in another 12 years. It is very likely that in 12 year your DH resume when he entered school will not be enough to get into the school he attended. We may not like it but our children are living in a world of high expectations and competion. Getting a solid start in Kindergarden is important and Pre-K helps that happen. But as others have said Pre-K should still not be academicly focused. The skills gathered in Pre-k are keys necessary to unlock what will be offered in Kindergarden and afterward. Kids are not sitting at tables doing workbooks, they are playing with trained adults supervising to help them get as much out of the play as possible. Unlike mommy, the teacher has nothing else to do all day but make sure her charges are learning all they can from the world. They have to spread that attention around amount a bunch of kids, but not with the cooking, cleaning, laundry, other mommy visites, shopping ect. And parent based teaching will still happen during non-school hours.

polkadot

01-23-2007, 05:15 PM

Ladies~

I am weighing in as a previous Pre-K and now Kindergarten teacher ( and an expectant mommy :D ) I have children in my class this year most of them were in some type of pre-k program or daycare setting. There are only a few who never had any previous school setting experience....that being said you can tell the child who has had no school setting from the other by observation. The children without the previous experience are overwhelmed, confused, and often not behind at all academically but socially. Yes, there are a handful that are very well socialized b/c parents like you here realize the importance of going to playdate, library group times, things that will socialize your children.

My opinion is this, children who begin some sort of preschool program be it full time or part time do reap the benifits. The are more socially attuned to their peers, they learn to follow routine, they learn about expectations and consequences also. I do believe that what I am expected to teach in Kindergarten is becoming 1st grade but that is something that as a future parent and as a teacher I have to accept. It is the beginning of my students 3rd 9week period and our curriculum is expecting that most of them are reading and writing sentences. They are expected to know half of their sight word list, rhyming words, beginning and ending sounds, patterns, numbers, and many other things that I wont list. I can tell you that the children who have no school experience are struggling. I can not say for sure if it b/c they did not attend a preschool or if there are underlying problems but i do see the difference.

So to try to sum this up...My child will be in a prechool school setting at the age of 4. Not because I couldnt teach my child everything they need to know to be prepared for kindergarten but because they need the structure, the learning from someone other than a parent, and because it prepares them for whats ahead even though I think what lies ahead in Kindergarten may be a little to much. :o and all this coming from a Kindergarten teacher...what would my principal think ?:p

linda_loo

01-24-2007, 05:11 AM

Since there wasn't a need in the good ole days, why is there a need now?

Give him just four words: No Child Left Behind. The expectations for math and reading in kindergarten are vastly different from when any of us were children.

jessmaine

01-24-2007, 07:51 AM

My 4 year old daughter goes to a 5 day a week pre school program. It is a Montosorri school and we love it. I could not be happier with it. She needed it socially. She was a shy child and now she is outgoing at school and at home. She is also able to write her name, my name, ect. I think she has gotten so much out of it. It is very $$$$$ though. We pay alot per month for her to go there and we struggle evey month to do it. We live in a rural town and her kindergarden is 11 kids and they do not have a pre k program. She will be in her preschool program for 3 years. I think it is totally worth the $$$$$$.

Franni

01-24-2007, 08:55 AM

polkadot I just wanted to say YAY for you. We were together in that "other" thread for a while and I am so happy to see that you are expecting. Congrats!!!!

For routine and socialization, wouldn't a daycare give her the same thing?

Linda difficult to convince him on the "no child left behind" stuff. He knew the multiplication table before he started school.

A Contradiction here... Polkadot had named a few skills that her students needed to know within a few months of starting Kindergarten. If PreK is not to be "academically focused", how would a kid have these skills? If they are not taught the alphabet, how would they proceed to sight words and writing sentences within a few months?

renrel Actually the biggest change in recent years (starting around the time when DH was going to college) is the fact that the best schools look beyond academic achievement and focus on the whole person. This was the case even years ago. Things like volunteer work, community involvement, etc have become the tipping point in many resumes rather than high scores because top scores I guess are becoming a dime a dozen and what these schools really want are people who could really blaze a trail and change the world. So is there a real difference between now and then?

helen22 I am going to look up that Time article. If you have it as a link, can you post? It would not be impossible though to argue that the rate of suicide/pregnancy/etc has decreased in recent year due to our awareness and immediate response. For ex. years ago when a kid didn't speak at 2 years old, people just say that he's slow or he will come around to it, my friend's kid has therapy at home, etc. Parents are now so attuned to the "warning" signs that there is a lot of early intervention. Maybe that's why the numbers are falling.

DH doesn't mean to stop progress. Things that make life safer (like airbags and carseats) or make life easier (like motorized vehicles) are great. He is gadget geek and loves all technology. The argument here is whether PreK is necessary.

emschwar Were you able to find those articles you mentioned before?

jessmaine in NJ, we have free prek programs that we would be able to sign up for. However I wouldn't be able to vouch for the quality of the program. We have 2 montesorris near us but they are also $$$$$$$.

Franni

01-24-2007, 09:28 AM

I think this is the Time Article (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1580388-1,00.html) -

polkadot

01-24-2007, 11:14 AM

Franni~ first, thanks for the congrats...i too am so happy to finally be pg and staying that way :)

Second,
A Contradiction here... Polkadot had named a few skills that her students needed to know within a few months of starting Kindergarten. If PreK is not to be "academically focused", how would a kid have these skills? If they are not taught the alphabet, how would they proceed to sight words and writing sentences within a few months

Most Pre-ks are not academically focused, but if you are in a good program with good teachers the children begin to learn the fundamentals of how to learn. Good pre-k teachers bring the learning into all the fun things they are doing without it being "teaching" there should be little to no paper pencil task performed, it should be hands on learning which I assume and hope most programs are. And to answer the question about wouldnt daycare do the same for routines and socialization, I say yes it would...i just think that Pre-K programs set a good foundation so that when they do begin Kindergarten they are not shocked by "school work"

i love that this discussion is what it is and not totally off subject...:p

mamax2

01-24-2007, 11:18 AM

Franni ~ Seems like maybe the best thing for you and your DH to do would be to visit some prospective kindergarten programs (wherever you plan to send your DD). If you & DH determine your DD has all the skills necessary to succeed in that environment, by all means skip pre-k! Who knows, maybe your DD will be a prodigy like your DH (I am using your example of his understanding multiplication tables prior to kindergarten to come up with my assumption) and she will be able to skip pre-k. Of course, there's also a chance you'll go into the classroom and walk away saying "Yeah, she's not ready for all that" and then your argument for pre-k (or nursery school or daycare, etc.) will be made. FWIW, I think most daycares will offer elements of a pre-k in their 3-4 y.o. classrooms.

A Contradiction here... Polkadot had named a few skills that her students needed to know within a few months of starting Kindergarten. If PreK is not to be "academically focused", how would a kid have these skills? If they are not taught the alphabet, how would they proceed to sight words and writing sentences within a few months?
I'm guessing this is via learning through play. I mean, I wouldn't consider my home to be especially 'academically focused', but my DD does have alphabet and number puzzles, we play counting games, we practice writing letters and drawing shapes. I don't think she feels pressure and I certainly don't test her, but she's learning valuable lessons all the while.

Now, there are certainly things I can't teach her at home though. For instand: how to interact in an environment of her peers, how to take direction from a teacher; and let's face it, I do not hold a degree in early childhood education - there are definitely people out there with different ideas and different approaches that may benefit my child.

happy1nuv

01-28-2007, 01:01 PM

Ok... I've been following along this discussion because its come up at a few of my mommy groups. Nic is only 1 1/2 right now... but, apparently around here - in order to get into a "good" pre-school, you need to start when you're 3 not 4 (cause the 3 year olds in the program get first dibs to be the 4 year old class). Now, I'm on the fence about preschool - mostly because of money. We just don't have the money for a good preschool. Now, that could change in the next 2 years, but I wouldn't bet the farm...

We're active with playdates, library, music class, etc. and when he's 3 he'll start a 1 1/2 hour art class run by the township that won't let mommy stay. I do plan on getting some homeschool type preschool curriculum type stuff, just to give us ideas on what to do and keep the days different and interesting because i tend to get into a rut of doing the same old, same old...

So, I guess my question for you ladies is... if you don't have the money to send dc to a good pre-school ...is your next choice a not so good preschool or just to find outside activities that fit in the budget but aren't necessarily as constant as a preschool would be? And, what do you consider preschool to be? Is an every day program more beneficial than a twice a week program? Or is it any exposure is good exposure?

Renrel

01-28-2007, 01:36 PM

Franni - I am barely thinking about colleges, so I am not an expert, but according to my friend who had lunch with a friend who is the admissions officer at Harvard, the candidates they are interested in are the ones with the perfect to almost perfect scores and grades AND that something extra. They actively look for applicants with some specific special skill they happen to feel they need that year. When I spoke to my friend it was a good hockey player, but some other year it might be a viola player or a quarter back. But, there is much more to success in life and in business than good grades, good test scores or a good college. I believe that the people who are most actively in living their lives, both independantly and interdependantly are the ones who will succeed. They ones who get interested in something and run with it further than you average kid or person does. The ones who start a club or charity or business because they feel it is something that just needs to be done or which they just want to do and not to have an interesting resume. The ones who are interested in learning more than in grades. And I don't know that going or not going to preschool will make anyone that kind of person. I think that alot of it is ingrained and that which enviroment will best nurture this personality will depend on the child, the parents, the home and the school in question.

happyInuv- I am lucky to be in what I think is a good preschool that happens to also be affordable, and I just lucked into it. I think it is worth your time to check out different preschools before deciding what to do. Find out which ones you think are good for your child. Just because one school get high marks from some parents, or wins a vote in a newspaper contect or had a good reputation, does not mean it will be right for your child. And find out if any of them have financial aid or scholarships. Both the ones I attended did. Look at places you might not have thought to look. I have a friend whose child needed special help and was therefore sent to an intergrated preschool. This was their second child and my friends said if they had realized what the program was they would have sent their other child, who did not need extra help. Intergrated means they want "normal" kids in the program as well as "special needs" children. But the ratio was something like 1-4 and all the teachers had masters in special education, which means they all have college degrees in educucation. And it was free. There may also be cooperative schools in your area which are less expensive. And after looking at the choices you can make a more informed decision as to whether for you and your family, given the actually choices of schools available to you, does preschool or homeschool with lots of extra stuff make the most sense.

Rico'sAlice

01-28-2007, 02:10 PM

I'm biased, but I can't think of any reason NOT to send a child to preschool. Or, to phrase it better, I can't think of a reason where a child would be better prepared for K by not going to preschool than by going to preschool.

I would have to agree with the second half of this.
I also think that it suggests an answer to the first question. Basically, preschool is the first step on a certain path. And so a big reason not to send a child to pre-school is because you don't want your kids on that path.

If preschool is going to teach a certain set of things to prepare for kindy- which prepares for first grade, and so on and so forth year after year- and those things/lessons or certain aspects of them are ones that you do not value, or even reject in whole or in part, then obviously it doesn't make sense to send your child to pre-school.

tracer

01-28-2007, 03:32 PM

I haven't been following along since I posted - but to answer Happy1nuv question, I think any pre-school is better than no pre-school. They still get the time away from the parents and still learn the basics that most pre-schools offers. We too are in play groups, outside activites, MyGym, etc. Pre-school doesn't compare to any of those on any level. They are all so different. HTH!

emschwar

01-28-2007, 04:30 PM

Happy1nuv - check into co-op preschools in your area. They're significantly more affordable than other preschools. You also might look into church preschools or head start.

mamax2

01-28-2007, 05:26 PM

So, I guess my question for you ladies is... if you don't have the money to send dc to a good pre-school ...is your next choice a not so good preschool or just to find outside activities that fit in the budget but aren't necessarily as constant as a preschool would be? And, what do you consider preschool to be? Is an every day program more beneficial than a twice a week program? Or is it any exposure is good exposure?
I'd look at all the schools - not just the so-called 'good ones' - sometimes there are hidden gems. Then, I'd apply to the private schools offering financial aid. The suggestion to check into co-op or Church-based programs is excellent as well. We don't have co-ops where I live, but the Catholic school tuition is HALF the other two private schools (one Montessori and the other Prep.) Also, verify with your state/town board of education that pre-k isn't available via the public schools. And finally, if NONE of those options worked for you (i.e.: no public pre-k, and you couldn't get financial aid to make tuition reasonable elsewhere) then I would just keep on doing the classes and maybe hook-up with a local homeschooling group - many of them have group activities and such that might give you some extra structure or learning ideas.

So, we visited the first two out of three preschools today. We've ruled one out and have one contender, just hoping we LOVE the public school and get accepted there so we can avoid tuition and commuting to school every day.

cshaysharp

02-01-2007, 07:03 AM

I have learned so much reading this discussion. Franni, I am having a somewhat similar disagreement of sorts with my DH.

My DD is 3 and her birthday is right after the cut off date for starting Kindergarten. So she will be one of the oldest in her class when she goes. My girls are with DH most of the day as he works 2nd shift, and takes them to the sitter or my moms around 2 pm until I pick them up at 5:30 pm. So she has no real classroom experience. I thought it would be beneficial for her to start preschool next school year in a 2 day/week (1/2 days) 3 y.o class. Then the next year do a 3 to 4 day a week (1/2 day) 4 y.o preschool class before she starts Kindergarten. My DH is adamant about it being unnecessary for 2 years of PreK. I have a gut feeling about it being a really good thing for her but am having a hard time convincing him. Is there any REAL benefit for kids to do 2 years of PreK instead of just 1? Anyone have some thoughts on this? TIA!

Renrel

02-01-2007, 08:20 AM

I think the advantages are:

1) it is easier to adjust gradually
2) the sooner a child gets over the adjustment period (begin away from mom/day, dealing with structure, figuring out how to play in a group, ect) the soon they start having fun and really learning. By learning I mean both taking in some of the academic stuff that comes from the play and the nuances of social play - how to tell by looking and listening if someone wants to be alone or wants a playmate, how to get other kids to do the stuff you want to do, when it is better to go along and when it is better to push for your way.
3) The longer kids are in a particular school the better the teachers know them and the more attatched they are to them. I think that there is always a little bit of preference given to the kids who come into a center when they are 12 wks over the ones who come in at age 3, because the teachers watched them grow up and have a long term relationship with them, even if they were not their teacher.
4) more time to work on any issues that may come up once DC is in a school type setting.
5) children will react more poorly to a 4 yr old without social skills then to a 2 or 3 yr old without them. They would expect a child their age to know how to behave and may not want to play with a child they view as immature or a trouble maker. If the other kids have been in preschool for a year they will likely have social skills your child will not if she has had little to no socialization with other kids.

JennZ

02-05-2007, 04:12 PM

Well ladies, I have an update for you...

Our Catholic church had preschool registration last Friday. We just moved to this parish, so I was doubtful about our odds of getting in.
BUT, the director called on Friday and told me she was able to get DD into the three-day program from 9-12, and DS into the two-day program from 9-12.
So basically, it's mine for the taking! I'm really happy they both got in, but still a little bit nervous.
But like my mom said, if it is not working out, I can always take them out and try again next year. The big accomplishment was getting into the program we wanted!
So maybe it was just meant to be, right??

Anyway, thank you all again for your tremendous insight, opinions and advice! You have really helped me with this process tremendously! :)

Thanks a million!
Jennifer

booksie

02-13-2007, 07:34 PM

Devil's Advocate?

Have any of you read Hold On to Your Kids? My husband read it and told me a lot about it. It is not an easy read but it makes a lot of very interesting points, particularly about how in this society we are all pressuring our kids to socialize, socialize, socialize, when what we should be doing is spending time with them and building relationships with them when we have the chance, especially when they're still young. I guess it talks about how some kids look to their parents for guidance and some look to their peers and what you can do to make sure you build a strong foundation with your kids and they are looking to you for their guidance. After reading the book he is much less set on sending our kids to preschool. Also, from what I've read, the kids who go to preschool do fantastic when they hit kindergarten and cruise through the first weeks but then everything settles down and when the class starts moving on to new material they all even out completely.

All that being said, we still aren't sure what we're going to do yet. I am going to visit some preschools and see what I think of them.

Here's the book in case anyone is iterested:
http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/0375760288.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg
http://www.amazon.com/Hold-Your-Kids-Parents-Matter/dp/0375760288/sr=8-1/qid=1171420340/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-8086533-2316152?ie=UTF8&s=books

Renrel

02-16-2007, 07:18 AM

booksie- I have not read the book, an as a mom who has had her child in full time daycare and now full time preschool, I may of course be making excused/reasoning to support my choices, but I think it is possible to do both. When DS is not in school we are very into building our relationship and understanding each other. DS is three and will ask to have a chat, or converstation to talk. I visit with him at lunch almost everyday. We talk about everything and anything, bugs, poop, death, G-d, sharing, being naughty, microbes, feelings, religion, expectations, disappointments. I do wish we could afford for me to work part time and for DS to be in school part time but I think if anyone is missing out on anything at the moment is more me than him. Though I must admit that DS's bedtime is way to late because I put more of a premium on having us interact with him than on getting him to sleep on time.