Dog Lovers & Supporters - Vote NO to SB 861

[Chile]

This is not meant to be a debate about good breeds and bad breeds. This is to stop BSL (Breed Specific Legislation). It was introduced because of the San Francisco dog mauling that was a case of negligence on the mother of the boy and not the dogs.

SB 861 is a bill introduced by Senator Jackie Speier and advocated by San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom to amend California's "NO BREED DISCRIMINATION" Law.

If SB 861 passes, communities in California will be allowed to make breed-specific legislation (BSL) that restricts the ownership of certain breeds of dogs. In other states that allow BSL, the follow breeds have been restricted or banned:

American Pit Bull Terriers; American Staffordshire Terriers; Staffordshire Bull Terriers; Rottweilers; American Bulldogs; Chow-Chows; Dobermans; German Shepherds; Akitas; Alaskan Malamutes; Great Danes
Even if you don't own one of the breeds but own a dog, vote NO. Your dog may not be on this list but I guarantee that one day, it may be. Many of those breeds listed are police dogs, therapy dogs, SAR dogs.

For more information about this bill and contact information: http://www.pitbull.us/

We didn't do anything wrong, but we're sorry (http://www.sorryagain.com)

Punish the deed, not the breed.

ETA: I know many California residents are unaware of this. I only wanted to bring it to people's attention and attached links for them to make their own choice. Whether you vote yes or no, please make sure to make an educated vote. That is all I ask. I'm not a resident of California so I have to rely on people that live there and my own searching on the internet for information. I realize that some may be outdated and I try my best to find what I can. Thank you.

Cross-posted to Pets

[Belm]

Chile - Thank you so much for posting this. I haven't checked the AB (american bulldog) boards in a while, so I'm especially glad that you posted it here.

[Heidi9771]

Punish the deed, not the breed.

Exactly! I even would go as far to say, punish the so called "owner" who is responsible not the breed! It's nurture not nature in many of these cases.

[Katie1]

Thank you for posting this- these breed bans get me so angry. I have met the world's sweetest pit bulls, American bulldogs, and Dobermans as well as extremely vicious lap dogs.

We spend a lot of time at the dog park, and it's just so blatantly obvious that the few ill-tempered dogs pick up their behavior from their negligent or misinformed owners.

[Nigellas]

Chile, that "we're sorry" site got me all choked up. :(

[BethIrish]

That "I'm sorry" thing....wow...such beautiful dogs....I personally know some pitties and they are wonderful dogs who I feel perfectly safe around! Makes me want to go smother them with kisses!!!!

[boilermaker]

I would think that they would be better off passing legislation increases the penalties for bad dog owners...but I guess the sponsors are more concerned with publicity than with doing what is right.

Can we protest the bill even if we aren't CA residents?

[jellybeany]

This kind of thing makes me so mad. The "I'm sorry..." page has some beautiful dogs on it. I agree with penalties for negligant and cruel owners! Why should the animals pay the price! :mad:

[Katie1]

Just curious- what happens to the dogs who already live there when a law like this gets passed? Do the owners have to find new homes for them out of state, or are existing pets grandfathered in? I can't imagine someone telling me I had to get rid of my dog- I think I'd move out of the state first.

[T&M'sMommy]

That sight made me teary eyed and I don't even have a dog. We have that ban in Ontario.

[Belm]

Can we protest the bill even if we aren't CA residents?

I'm going to send them an e-mail (you can get their contact info off the pitbull website that Chile posted). I don't know how much good it would do, but I want to do something.

[T&M'sMommy]

In Ontario, your(general your) dog can stay with you, but you can't get a new one. I think also that your dog needs to be muzzled outside and must be spayed or neutered. I could be completely wrong though.

[Lucy Van Pelt]

I adore dogs (i have three of them), but I will be voting yes on this measure.

[Belm]

If you "adore dogs", then why are you voting yes?

Would I more applicable response be, "I adore all dogs except for the ones listed and therefore want to have BSL?"

[Lucy Van Pelt]

Sorry, the OP stated she didn't want turn this into a debate so I am going to respect her wishes and simply state that I will be voting yes on this bill.

[Chile]

Just curious- what happens to the dogs who already live there when a law like this gets passed? Do the owners have to find new homes for them out of state, or are existing pets grandfathered in? I can't imagine someone telling me I had to get rid of my dog- I think I'd move out of the state first.

Depends on what the actual bills read. But in Denver, my understanding was that the pit bulls had to be removed from the city. They were no longer allowed to live there. In some cities certain breeds of dogs have to wear orange identification tags (regardless of whether or not they have attacked anything - it's discrimination based on their breed).

But yes, I agree. If anything came like this to my city or state and passed (even after a huge fight by yours truly) I would move as many Denver residents have.

[Chile]

I adore dogs (i have three of them), but I will be voting yes on this measure.

Sorry, the OP stated she didn't want turn this into a debate so I am going to respect her wishes and simply state that I will be voting yes on this bill.

You're right, I ask for there not to be a debate, but you intentionally left bait and I do not appreciate it. You simply could not have posted (even though I'm well aware it's a public post and you are free to do whatever you wish) you should have refrained from saying you love dogs but will vote yes.

May you and your dogs never face irrational discrimination based on their breeds.

[Lucy Van Pelt]

Ummm...excuse me??

You said "Dog lovers & Supporters Vote No" I AM a dog lover and supporter, but I am voting yes. That's not leaving bait, that is simply stating that I will be voting yes. Stop being a drama queen and reading things into posts that are not there.

[Nigellas]

I AM a dog lover and supporter

Correction: You are a BREED SPECIFIC dog lover and supporter.

[Chile]

Ummm...excuse me??

You said "Dog lovers & Supporters Vote No" I AM a dog lover and supporter, but I am voting yes. That's not leaving bait, that is simply stating that I will be voting yes. Stop being a drama queen and reading things into posts that are not there.

Drama queen? *giggle* I'd appreciate it if you refrained from unnecessary name-calling. It's not needed here and is uncalled for. And your post was pointed out to me as bait, thankyerverymuch.

And by the way, for your information this is a thread to educate people about a discriminatory bill that is being introduced and to ask people to vote no. If you would rather vote yes and educate people, then do it in your own thread. This is about voting NO, not about voting yes.

[ejs]

To be more helpful, I think you should post the text of the bill, including the changes that were made before the last vote.

Cities will not be allowed to ban breeds. They will be allowed to have mandatory spay/neuter laws.

I am against this bill, but I prefer that people make their decision based on facts, not emotions.

[amew]

Cities will not be allowed to ban breeds. They will be allowed to have mandatory spay/neuter laws.

If this is true, I am kind of confused as to why this bill is causing as much outrage as it is. I would be interested in seeing the text and understanding more about what is going on.

[paiger]

To be more helpful, I think you should post the text of the bill, including the changes that were made before the last vote.

Cities will not be allowed to ban breeds. They will be allowed to have mandatory spay/neuter laws.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but even if this bill doesn't allow a city to 'ban breeds'. Much like other laws, once the ground work in laid in place, harsher and harsher laws are very easy for something like this to escalate towards.

[Chile]

As requested, this is the bill as it posted on the site I listed in my original post. I posted the link to the site rather than posting the actual bill

BILL NUMBER: SB 861 AMENDED
BILL TEXT

AMENDED IN ASSEMBLY JULY 5, 2005
AMENDED IN ASSEMBLY JUNE 21, 2005
AMENDED IN SENATE APRIL 20, 2005

INTRODUCED BY Senator Speier

FEBRUARY 22, 2005

An act to amend Section 31683 of the Food and Agricultural Code,
and to add Chapter 7 (commencing with Section 122330) to Part 6
of Division 105 of the Health and Safety Code, relating to
dogs.



LEGISLATIVE COUNSEL'S DIGEST


SB 861, as amended, Speier. Dangerous and vicious dogs.
Existing law regulates potentially dangerous and vicious dogs, as
specified, and provides that nothing in these provisions shall be
construed to prevent a city or county from adopting or enforcing its
own program for the control of potentially dangerous or vicious dogs
that may incorporate all, part, or none of these provisions, or that
may punish a violation of these provisions as a misdemeanor or may
impose a more restrictive program to control potentially dangerous or
vicious dogs, provided that no program shall regulate these dogs in
a manner that is specific as to breed.
This bill would no longer prohibit local governments from adopting
a program regulating dangerous and vicious dogs that is specific as
to breed , but instead would authorize cities and counties
to pass breed specific legislation to address public safety and
welfare concerns in their communities, provided that no program shall
institute a ban specific as to breed pertaining to
mandatory spay or neuter programs and breeding requirements .
This bill would require those jurisdictions that do implement
such programs to provide quarterly statistical reports relating to
dog bites to the State Veterinarian, as specified.
Vote: majority. Appropriation: no. Fiscal committee: no.
State-mandated local program: no.


THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA DO ENACT AS FOLLOWS:


SECTION 1. Section 31683 of the Food and Agricultural Code is
amended to read:
31683.
(a) Nothing in this chapter
shall be construed to prevent a city or county from adopting or
enforcing its own program for the control of potentially dangerous or
vicious dogs that may incorporate all, part, or none of this
chapter, or that may punish a violation of this chapter as a
misdemeanor or may impose a more restrictive program to control
potentially dangerous or vicious dogs. Except as provided in
Section 122330 of the Health and Safety Code, no program shall be
specific as to breed.
(b) Cities and counties may pass breed specific legislation to
address public safety and welfare concerns in their communities,
provided that no program shall institute a ban specific as to breed.

SEC. 2. Chapter 7 (commencing with Section 122330)
is added to Part 6 of Division 105 of the Health and
Safety Code , to read:
CHAPTER 7. SPAY/NEUTER AND BREEDING PROGRAMS FOR ANIMALS

122330.
(a) Cities and counties may enact dog breed-specific ordinances
pertaining only to mandatory spay or neuter programs and breeding
requirements.
(b) Jurisdictions that implement programs described in subdivision
(a) shall measure the effect of those programs by compiling
statistical information on dog bites. The information shall, at a
minimum, identify dog bites by severity, the breed of the dog
involved, whether the dog was altered, and whether the breed of dog
was subject to a program established pursuant to subdivision (a).
These statistics shall be submitted quarterly to the State
Veterinarian.


----

This bill is still breed-specific in nature and once one bill passes, like ardathpaige mentioned it opens the door for much harsher bills to be passed. It's better to stop it before it starts. If they want to regulate spay and neuter for ALL breeds, I fully support that.

[amew]

Here's the text (as most recently amended) for those interested:

"This bill would no longer prohibit local governments from adopting
a program regulating dangerous and vicious dogs that is specific as
to breed pertaining to mandatory spay or neuter programs and breeding requirements. This bill would require those jurisdictions that do implement
such programs to provide quarterly statistical reports relating to
dog bites to the State Veterinarian, as specified."

Edited because I started to debate too much. Sorry.

[Chimichanga]

I'm sad to see this legislation is actually progressing. :(

I love all dogs, as long as they are properly trained. Some of the sweetest dogs I've ever met are Dobermans and Rottweilers (sp?). I love my grandma's German Sheppard (I noticed they were on the list too). Sweetest thing you'll ever meet - until you try to hurt my grandma or one of the grandkids.

I just hope it doesn't make it's way to Wisconsin...

[Zelda Von Yitz]

When did a Great Dane ever get a rap as a "vicious dog"? Just wondering...

My cousin has an Am Staff -- Gracie's the sweetest dog around. She wouldn't hurt a fly.

[Chile]

When did a Great Dane ever get a rap as a "vicious dog"? Just wondering...

My cousin has an Am Staff -- Gracie's the sweetest dog around. She wouldn't hurt a fly.

Depends on the city, depends on the lawmakers writing the BSL.

In some places, Greyhounds and Weimaraner are considered "dangerous dogs." It only proves ignorance of dogs when it comes to BSL.

[mrsfromage]

I know y'all will say you know sweet pit bulls but there is a scary one in our neighborhood and I personally don't see why I need to be scared to walk out my own door because someone wants to own a dog like that. I'll gladly vote for the bill.

[lml41981]

I know y'all will say you know sweet pit bulls but there is a scary one in our neighborhood and I personally don't see why I need to be scared to walk out my own door because someone wants to own a dog like that. I'll gladly vote for the bill.
Why should nobody be allowed to own a pit bull because you're afraid of one? Further, how do you *know* it is a pit bull?

Often the breeds get a bad rep because people *think* they know what the breed is because it has the colorings or shape of a dog they've heard is mean. One of my goldens is never mistaken for a golden...the other is mistaken for an Irish setter all the time. If it can happen with "friendly breeds," I guarantee you it happens with "bad breeds."

If I lived in California, I'd vote no. With breed specific legislation, really, no animal is safe.

[Irish Elf]

As someone who is thinking of adopting a German Shephard from a rescue group, I do not and cannot support anything that targets the dogs. We can get rid of all the "bad" dogs, but the irresponsible owners will just make new ones. Kind of like guns don't kill people, people do.

My sister has 2 dogs that everyone classifies as pit's. They are very sweet. Their recent litter was stolen at night recently. My sister is just sick that all these puppies will be raised for nefarious purposes other than for what they were intended.

As to German shephards being mean dogs, well, it depends on what's mean.. My cousin had one and he was trained to bark at strangers coming to the back of their property. No one should ever come to the back of someone's property unless know by the owner and dog. And once the dog knew you it didn't care where you went. Is it mean to alert the owners? To me a dog barking at trespassing is the same as an alrm sounding when you trespass.

The problem isn't thedogs themselves; it's the irresponsible people who own/train them. They are the problem and should be dealt with accordingly. I've met mean poodles, Yorkies and Labs. Make it behavior specific, not breed specific.

However I would support legislation that says dog owners should go through an obedience and training class. Most of the problems people have with dogs would be avoided if more people were knowledgable.

PS - sorry for the typos - long day at work and my eyes and brain aren't working.

[Chile]

I know y'all will say you know sweet pit bulls but there is a scary one in our neighborhood and I personally don't see why I need to be scared to walk out my own door because someone wants to own a dog like that. I'll gladly vote for the bill.

Well, there is a yellow lab in my neighborhood that is dog-aggressive and people-aggressive. I don't see why I should subject my well behaved dogs to it when they are in their own yard. So maybe yellow labs should have some BSL targeted at them!

<snip> We can get rid of all the "bad" dogs, but the irresponsible owners will just make new ones.

My sister has 2 dogs that everyone classifies as pit's. They are very sweet. Their recent litter was stolen at night recently. My sister is just sick that all these puppies will be raised for nefarious purposes other than for what they were intended.

<snip>

The problem isn't thedogs themselves; it's the irresponsible people who own/train them. They are the problem and should be dealt with accordingly. I've met mean poodles, Yorkies and Labs. Make it behavior specific, not breed specific.

However I would support legislation that says dog owners should go through an obedience and training class. Most of the problems people have with dogs would be avoided if more people were knowledgable.

<snip>

That is horrible about your sister's litter of pups. :(

I totally agree with you. I would support legislation that regulates breeders and cracks down on BYB (and a group of us are working towards that). I would also support legislation that requires dog owners should go through obedience training. I'd even go so far as people having to have licenses to own any dog.

And if they ban all the pits, all the GSD, all the Rotties, all the Dobies, all the Akitas, the irresponsible, abusive owners are just going to turn to another breed. And whose to say it won't be one of the all-American Labs or Goldens? Those owners will find themselves in the same place as we are now. And may be surprised when many of us don't help them since they didn't help us.

[gayle]

Thanks for posting this Chile.

I am radically opposed to this piece of legislation and hope that ALL CA dog owners will strongly oppose this bill.

I have absolutely NO issue with seeing legislation pass that provides for stiff penalties for irresponsible dog OWNERS. That is the approach any form of legislation to control aggressive dogs needs to take.

To make it breed specific however, opens the door to all kinds of legal chaos, misunderstanding about various breeds, and unfair judgements being made of them.

What would happen next? All breeds over 70 lbs get targeted as a potential "danger"? Or how about Springer Spaniels, who I used to breed, who have a MUCH higher incidence of rage syndrome, than almost any other breed around? And hey, that's a 45 lb, adorable "spaniel".

The point is, just like people, there are good and bad tempered dogs of EVERY breed. Breed specific laws are the animal equivalent to segregation of races. It is not only an ineffective way to have an impact on the problem of aggression, it is also morally wrong. The only way to have an impact on aggression problems, is to target the owners and or irresponsible breeders. Make them take responsibility by issuing heavy fines, and or jail sentences when they are not in full control of their dogs behaviour.

[jesvet]

Thank you for this Chile, I was not aware of it until you posted it, and as a California resident I will be drafting letters to send.

ITA with everything Gayle said. BSL is stupid, stupid, stupid as it doesn't really solve anything, but we've been down this road many times before.

[gayle]

A slight OT, Jes, that kitty in your avatar with the cut lime (it IS a lime, isn't it?) on it's head NEVER fails to make me giggle :)

[chefker]

I know y'all will say you know sweet pit bulls but there is a scary one in our neighborhood and I personally don't see why I need to be scared to walk out my own door because someone wants to own a dog like that. I'll gladly vote for the bill.

I'll tell you what. When I was a kid, I was cutting through someone's yard (which of course I shouldn't have been doing...), and I was bit by the beagle who lived there. I was TERRIFIED. And beagles are not known to be 'vicious' or whatever. Additionally, one of the most ill-tempered dogs I know today is an 8 pound chihuahua! So....not *just* pit bulls have the potential to harm someone. ANY freaking dog does. Just like any human being has the potential to kill another one, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

If people continue to support BSL, soon other breeds will be included besides the 'usual suspects', and eventually NOBODY will be able to own ANY dog, no matter what the breed. I love when we intentionally VOTE for such legislation and allow the government to make choices for us, as if we're all a bunch of idiots. :rolleyes:

[jaeger]

As a dog lover and an owner of a wonderful pittie, I cannot support this bill. If it passes, individual cities and towns in California will be able to pass breed specific legislation. It could become similar to the dog "round up" that is currently going on in Denver. It's awful. A local newspaper showed the authorities coming to get one of the poor dogs, and she was smiling as she was being taken away, with no idea that she was going to be euthanized.

[keska]

Chefker

I agree that there are many dogs that bite and that little dogs often can be aggressive, but I see a big difference in being attacked by a Chihuahua and a pit bull. I'm confident that a Chihuahua isn't likely likely to maul me to death.

That's not to say I'm for breed specific legislation, though.

[chefker]

No, I wasn't suggesting that a chihuahua could maul someone. :)

Just trying to point out that any breed can have 'issues'. A lot depends on how the dog is treated/raised by their owner, that's all.

[katmg]

BSL is wrong, imo. It's bad owners not bad dogs. Sure, certain dogs can tend to have more aggressive tendencies but proper breeding should make sure that is not encouraged in the breed.

There are people out there that like the idea of owning a 'big, mean' dog. Those people should be punished, not the poor animal, who has likely suffered at their hands.

[BrownEyedGirl]

This is just so very irritating. It just makes me want to scream! I'm so upset that I just can't really figure out anything intelligent to write.

I have a chow/rottie mix right now. He is the sweetest, most spoiled dog I've ever met. Even though I am confident he would never bite anyone, he is never given the opportunity.

It's the OWNER'S responsibility to keep their dog under control. It's a freaking animal, they don't know or understand human laws and customs.

Are politicians just upset that they can't discriminate against people that they have to go after dogs?

Next thing you know they are going to start enforcing "breeding" restrictions on people. You know, don't let the poor people reproduce, they'll only become criminals. Not my opinion only an extreme example.

I just wish there was something I could do here.

*Edited to get rid of any negative small dog remarks. I took the wrong approach to the subject.

[wendalah]

Why does this always spiral into a big dog vs. little dog argument?
I would hope most of the people posting here love ALL dogs. I don't see the reason why just because some larger breeds get a bad rap, the smaller dogs of the world must be picked on in retaliation.

ETA to remove heated remarks. :)

[BrownEyedGirl]

Removing comments about comments made that were removed.

I give up. We're just too dang nice on this darn board.

I don't get it, everyone's nice, gets along, doesn't offend, stays open-minded. What's this world coming to. ;)

Okay, so I'll stop. No more posts or edits from me. I can't keep up.

Sorry if I ever offended.

[wendalah]

I edited my response to remove the heated remarks after seeing you did the same. Thanks for that!

[wendalah]

Bree: WOOF! :D

[julietchicago]

UGH, this makes me so angry. I own a German Shepherd and yes she is very protective of DH and I and our home, but she is very innocent. Can I say I am positive she would never hurt anyone if she felt threatened? No, I can't. But nobody ever knows for sure.

To be honest, I have seen some very agressive and evil poodles, why aren't they on the list? LOL It's not the breed, it's the owner and how they raise the dog. UGH it's frustrating.

[MurphysLaw]

ITA with the majority here & the OP. This is simply racism/sterotyping for dogs, and it disgusts me.

Some of my best friends have 3 dobies, YES they will raise hell and bark if you come in the yard, and you may be afraid to get out(unless you know the family) but that is what they were trained to do. They don't hurt or bite unless they feel one of their humans is in danger which hasn't happened yet...I don't know who has the balls to test them. :p

Another friend has the SWEETEST pit I've ever seen...and he's great with his nearly 2yearold human playtoy.:) They are best of friends. I bet he could get mean, *IF* someone hurt his family.

My Stepmother raised SnowWhite Sheperds for a few years and still has the mom & dad. They are angels and LOVE people. They are also trained to protect, but they have never once had to.

In ALL these families, if any of these furbabies were to hurt ANYONE, it would be out of loyalty or by command, not simply because of WHO/WHAT they are.

[jbenny75]

I know y'all will say you know sweet pit bulls but there is a scary one in our neighborhood and I personally don't see why I need to be scared to walk out my own door because someone wants to own a dog like that. I'll gladly vote for the bill.

Don't you think that person will just get a different breed, be just as irresponsible, and turn that dog into a scary dog as well? Hello? What an ignorant statement. Because you have a scary one in your neighborhood, thousands of dogs should be taken away from their owners and euthanized? Do you really think that the way that dog is has nothing to do with having an idiot owner? It has nothing to do with the breed. That same dog most likely could have been an awesome dog had he won the owner lottery and gotten a responsible one.

What about the thousands of pits that are sweet, loving wonderful dogs? When I looked at the Sorry site that Chile posted, I cried. I can't imagine all of those wonderful dogs losing their homes. It's heartbreaking. I have Dobermans- if the BSL was targeting them here in PA I'd be terrified. And I'd move wherever I had to to save them. But not everyone can afford to do that and many dogs will have to be given up. It's a tragedy.

Legislation should target irresponsible owners, and regulate ownership, not breeds.

Is there anything someone not in CA can do?

[greenbunny]

Ever hear the saying "First they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew...."and it goes on through the Communists, the unions, etc., until they come for him too?

Well, it's starting with BSL. Now Hesston, Kansas is trying to get breed laws against not only pits and rotties, but also terriers. Strap in, it's going to be a hell of a ride.

BSL against terriers (http://www.ksn.com/news/stories/8787736.html)

So are those of you who support doing this to pit bulls equally glad to see terriers getting the same treatment?

[chefker]

This is getting insane. Soon it'll be illegal to own ANY dog, regardless of breed, if ridiculous legislation like this is allowed to pass. :(

[Jaycee]

Guns don't kill people, people kill people, and the same holds true for these poor dogs. We're taking our fears out on the poor dogs, when we really need to be punishing the bad owners. :( It's sad, it's pathetic, and I wish I still lived in CA so I could vote NO!!!

[artist]

So what can we do? (I am not in CA, so can't vote.) There is such a cute bulldog in my neighborhood. Many of these dogs are quite sweet.