Vaccine Information

[Kanga]

In order to have the pro vax thread remain debate free, the mods have decided that this should be the vax debate thread. Because of that, I have deleted all the info that was previously here and will be transferring it to a different thread. So feel free to debate vax related issues here.

[Kanga]

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[Kanga]

*saving

[Kanga]

and another one

[Kanga]

I promise these will all get used up

[Kanga]

one more just to be safe. In the meantime if you have any info/links you'd like added, just post it here, and I'll add it when I get a chance.

[Toonces]

Thank you for starting this thread, Kanga! Here's a link re Thimerosal:

The great thimerosal cover-up: Mercury, vaccines, autism and your child's health
(http://www.newstarget.com/011764.html) - Sept. 2005

I'm also a big Don Imus fan:

Don Imus - MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036713/) - he talks about Thimerosal problems on a regular basis. I think he has 1 or 2 younger kids who are vax free.

So far we're delaying and possibly skipping entirely the MMR. We are skipping the chicken pox vax - our Ped doesn't even believe in it. He told us that it's our continued exposure to the chick pox disease that keeps the rate of shingles down and doesn't believe that enough research has been done on this vax yet. We also skip the flu vax. Our Ped has never had the flu in 34 years of being a doc. I've had it twice, DH and DD haven't had it.

I have an appt to talk w/ our Ped in Oct. to discuss skipping or delaying various newborn vaxes for our DS (EDD Nov.). I need to do some more research.

I always ask for preservative free vaxes for the ones DD has gotten.

[CityGirl]

Thank you for this thread! I'm halfway through What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Vaccinations and am deeply interested in what other parents have decided to do.

[tgal]

Thanks for this thread. I am hoping to get some clarification here on a couple of things from the book What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Vaccinations . Our doctor told us that thimerosal has since been removed from all vaccinations. Is this true? Another question I posted on another vax thread was whether or not anyone could find a doctor that would split up the MMR. Our doctor won't and I am wondering how to go about finding someone that will. Lastly, I know ethically you can skip vax for school enrollment, however, if you just want to expose your dc to chicken pox, how would one go about finding someone with chicken pox to expose your child (I know this sounds crazy, but I've heard it referred to a chicken pox party), especially if most kids are vaccinated now.

[dionysia]

There is a chart of thimerisol/mercury content in vaccines here:
http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm

Be sure to ask your ped what specific brand/vaccine they use.

In MA, the state provides the vaccines to peds and none of the vaccines provided contain any thimerisol.

Di

[littlebear]

From the CDC (which I consider to be a sound source of information although I realize that others may not):
Our doctor told us that thimerosal has since been removed from all vaccinations. Is this true?

Today, with the exception of some Influenza (flu) vaccines, none of the vaccines used in the U.S. to protect preschool children against 12 infectious diseases contain thimerosal as a preservative.


Here's the website.
http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/concerns/thimerosal/default.htm

Other info from the CDC including their vax schedules
http://www.cdc.gov/node.do/id/0900f3ec8000e2f3

[Rico'sAlice]

how would one go about finding someone with chicken pox to expose your child (I know this sounds crazy, but I've heard it referred to a chicken pox party), especially if most kids are vaccinated now.


There is a live journal thing for this purpose.http://community.livejournal.com/pox_parties/
If you go to mothering.com and go to the "tribe" for your area you'll probably be able to find out if/when they are happening. Maybe ask local LLL members. There are also yahoo groups and some other mailing lists set up for this purpose. Are there any Waldorf/Steiner schools near you? Anthroposophy strongly discourages vaxs and they would probably be able to help you out.

Also, if you can't find anyone with chix pox, you can also get it from someone with shingles. (usually an elderly person.) It is the same varicella virus, and will show up as regular children's chickenpox in your kid.

http://www.mothering.com/articles/growing_child/child_health/chickenpox_party.html

[Toonces]

I heard that as of 1/1/05 (I think that was the date) they were no longer producing vaxes with thimerosal, but that they still had to use up their inventory so I'm not 100% convinced those have all been used up. My mom heard on the Imus Morning Show that vaxes that are mass produced and sent overseas still have thimerosal in them b/c they "have" to use it to preserve all those vials. I don't know what to believe... I tend to be skeptical.

tgal ~ You can check out the MDC "Finding Your Tribe" forum and post a question re Peds who break up the MMR in your area. I found our current Ped in that forum and LOVE him.

I mentioned that I always ask for preservative free vaxes and last time we were at the Ped I called first to verify, then asked the nurse, and then asked our Ped (just to be sure :) ). His reply was, "Yep, it's preservative free. Oh, except for the mercury." ;) He special orders his vaxes and has already told me they're preservative free, but you can never be too safe IMO.

[NYN]

here is the extended version of the same statement that was previously posted. the source is the CDC:

Today, with the exception of some influenza vaccine, none of the vaccines used to protect preschool children against 12 infectious diseases contain thimerosal as a preservative. (Those with a concentration of less than 0.0002% contain what is considered “trace,” or insignificant, amounts.) Certain Influenza (flu) vaccines and tetanus-diphtheria vaccines (Td) given to children age 7 and older contain thimerosal as a preservative. For more information on thimerosal content in some currently manufactured U.S. licensed vaccines, go to http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm
if you click on the FDA link there are two tables which list the vaccinations that still contain thimerosal.

while it's good that so much attention has been given to thimerosal, it is important to remember all the other ingredients that are in a lot of vaccines that can be just as dangerous.

before we vaccinated my daughter we asked the pediatrician for the inserts for all the vaccinations that she recommended. we read each insert cover to cover, decided what we didn't like, etc. and started eliminating from there.

[Kanga]

CP or other parties - let everyone you know what disease you're looking for. There are also groups on yahoo and I think msn (msn does have groups, right?) for this as well. The host usually has lolli pops and drinks for everyone to share to hopefully increase the chances of spreading it.

If you decide to get any vaccine - read the insert cover to cover, and also read the vial to make sure it is what it's supposed to be. Mistakes are not very common, but not unheard of either.

[HGMorgann]

Quickie on Thimersol - yes most are "Thimersol-free" but still have trace amounts of thimersol in it. Now, this is where I don't have a resource on hand, but in testing of thimersol-free vaccines, some doses had much more thimersol than what they expected to find, I will look for this resource and post exact numbers if possible.

We are very fortunate to have a super ped. who takes lots of time to talk with us on each issue and provide us with new studies and reports. We have a WBV and I will ask him for more citations.

[kmack]

thanks for starting this thread. i wish i had done a lot more research of vaccines before i even selected a ped. DD is 13 mos and has gotten all of the 'required' vaccines so far. one time she got 4 at once but since then i have asked that she not receive more than 2 at a time, and then i have asked about them being thimerasol free. i have never asked for the insert, the ped. has just given me the vaccine info sheet for each shot (a minute before she administers the shot, so there's barely enough time to read it).

anyway, i would like to hear more about those who have chosen not to get a certain vaccine and why. chicken pox for one...assuming there is no thimerasol in it, what is in it that makes you not want it? i have 'What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Children's Vax' and admit i have not read much of it. but in the end where she gives her recommendations, she says she does not recommend it in her one-year-old patients but i think i missed her explanation as to why.

i know there is a lot of controversy surrounding the MMR vax, specifically a link to autism (even though they don't use thimerasol anymore?). it seems it is hard to find a dr. who will administer them separately, has anyone done this?

ETA: DD developed three red bumps at the site where one of her shots was administered, which then turned into a bruise (that is still there 3 weeks later), along with a mild cough and runny nose. should i have called the ped to let them know this?

[lml41981]

Before DD came along, I thought it was horrible that people would have pox parties just to expose their kids to an illness and intentionally get them sick.

Now that I don't want DD to have the CP vax, I am eating my words. How early is too early for her to go to a pox party?

[alienhost]

Very informative thread. Question though, it was my understanding that the MMR never contained thimerisol as it did not need a preservative. So wouldn't the speculation of the "link to autism" be some other factor other than thimerisol?

I guess I'm confused or misinformed. I read it somewhere and I think my ped confirmed it.

[kmack]

as it is i'm surprised by how many people here have said that their one-year-olds were vaccinated against MMR. i thought that even the current CDC recommendation was to hold off on it until 15-18 months. again, don't quote me on that -- i read this stuff a very long time ago but i was surprised to read that.

this was from the chicken pox thread, but i was curious about this too so i had looked it up not too long ago. the CDC recommends getting it between 12 and 18 mos

CDC Recommended Immunization Schedule 2006 (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/pdf/wk/mm5451-Immunization.pdf)

i still don't understand why they suggest getting Hep B at birth, since it is a disease transmitted through sexual contact and IV drug use??

[Marisa]

kmack -- My mother (who works in maternal care at a NJ hospital) explained it as a public health move, not necessarily a 'fear for baby's safety' move. They want everyone to have the Hep B shots, and they have to be done in a certain specific time frame -- it's shot 1, then shot 2 is two weeks later (or one week? I don't remember), then shot 3 is 6 months later. If it's not done specifically at those times, the vaccine loses its efficacy and you'd need to start all over.

Basically, they know that there are many parents who start to slack on the WBV after a certain point, so they want to be sure to get the shots in while most parents are still keeping up with them.

If you feel confident that you will be vigilant about your child's checkups, and that you have the organizational skills to schedule a WBV for your older toddler or preschooler, then a followup in a week for the next shot, then another in 6 months, then there's absolutely no reason why it has to be given to a newborn.

We opted out of it at the hospital -- my son didn't receive any vaccinations until his 2-month visit.

[NYN]

i was told (by a health care professional) that the reason why they want kids to get the Hep B vax in the hospital is b/c doing it this early means that the disease will be erradicated in ~60 years. my pediatrician told me what Marisa posted about the lack of follow-up and WBV. i don't know which is true or if either are true at all...

my pediatrician doesn't give the MMR as three separate shots but i know people who's doctors do this. i read somewhere (i think on these boards actually?) that it is more expensive for doctor's to buy it this way which is why a lot won't do it. i haven't really looked into finding a pediatrician who separates them since we don't have plans to do the vaccination as of now so i can't tell you if it is easy or hard but if you join a mom's group or ask in your local LLL group i'm sure someone there knows a local doctor who separates the three shots.

[ginadc]

I'll freely admit that I am very strongly pro-vax. (May come from having a father who had polio--got it the last year before the vaccine.)

I like the Institute for Vaccine Safety (http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/) at Johns Hopkins. They have great information; their disease-specific pages have updated links to recent studies regarding vaccines for that disease, and they also have a good thimerosal table. I also like the Immunization Action Coalition (http://www.immunize.org/).

[ginadc]

This is what the CDC says about splitting MMR:

Splitting the MMR vaccine into three separate doses given at three different times would cause more discomfort from additional injections and would leave children exposed to potentially serious diseases. For instance, if rubella vaccine were delayed, 4 million children would be susceptible to rubella for an additional 6 to 12 months. This would potentially allow otherwise preventable cases of congenital rubella syndrome (CRS) to occur through transmission of rubella from infected children to pregnant women. Ironically, infection of pregnant woman with "wild" rubella virus is one of the few known causes of autism. Thus, by preventing rubella infection of pregnant women, MMR vaccine also prevents autism.

[Kanga]

lml - the pox vaccine is recommended for 12-18 mo olds, and since you can catch pox from the vaccine, I would assume it would be ok to introduce her to natural pox at that age as well. IMO it's probably better to wait until 3-4 years of age, although I wouldn't fret if you accidentally introduce her to it before then. They won't have to miss any school, and will be old enough to understand when you tell them not to itch. (itching can cause infections and scars). Also IIRC, you are still bfing so if you're immune to cp, and you expose her to it while natalie is still bfing or with 4-6 weeks after being weaned(that's how long your immunity will last in her system) she likely won't catch it.

Hep B - we won't be getting this one either, unless dd decides for herself she wants it. Immunity is said to only last for 5 years anyways, so vaxxing newborns makes 0 sense to me. I hope that I will be able to steer her away from drugs and teach her safe sex. Hep B isn't very common anyways and suspect it will be even less common by the time she is a teen and teh majority of infections happen with iv drug users and prostitutes.

MMR - Dr.'s must order a certain quantity of the seperate M, M, and R vaxes and since there isn't much of a demand, only certain, usually large offices are able to use them all up. You can go to a different office for the seperate ones if you'd like. The free ones the health department gives out is the MMR, not the seperate ones.

DD developed three red bumps at the site where one of her shots was administered, which then turned into a bruise (that is still there 3 weeks later), along with a mild cough and runny nose. should i have called the ped to let them know this?

Dd got a knot under skin at the injection site after her 4 mo vaxes which later turned into a bruise. The entire thing from beginning of the knot until the bruise went away was about 6 weeks. I mentioned it at her 6mo appt, and the dr. didn't seem in the least concerned. The cough and runny nose may or may not be related to the vaxes and it's rare the dr.'s will connect adverse reactions to vaccines anyways. It could be that she was a little more susceptible to other illnesses going around from her immune system fighting off the shots and she caught a mild cold or something.

[lml41981]

lml - the pox vaccine is recommended for 12-18 mo olds, and since you can catch pox from the vaccine, I would assume it would be ok to introduce her to natural pox at that age as well. IMO it's probably better to wait until 3-4 years of age, although I wouldn't fret if you accidentally introduce her to it before then. They won't have to miss any school, and will be old enough to understand when you tell them not to itch. (itching can cause infections and scars). Also IIRC, you are still bfing so if you're immune to cp, and you expose her to it while natalie is still bfing or with 4-6 weeks after being weaned(that's how long your immunity will last in her system) she likely won't catch it.
<snip>
Dd got a knot under skin at the injection site after her 4 mo vaxes which later turned into a bruise. The entire thing from beginning of the knot until the bruise went away was about 6 weeks. I mentioned it at her 6mo appt, and the dr. didn't seem in the least concerned. The cough and runny nose may or may not be related to the vaxes and it's rare the dr.'s will connect adverse reactions to vaccines anyways. It could be that she was a little more susceptible to other illnesses going around from her immune system fighting off the shots and she caught a mild cold or something.
Yup. Still BFing. The reason I want to expose her to it sooner than 3-4 years is that the doctor wants to vax her at 12 months. This is her "pet vax," so I am afraid she'll give me a hard time about it. She's pretty respectful of other things, though, so I might be fearing nothing. We'll see.

DD developed a knot under her skin after a vax, too. I seem to recall it being after the 4 month vax, but I really don't remember if it was the 4 month or the 6 month. I asked the doctor about it and she wasn't concerned. She said it was probably the DTaP. Now I am a little fearful of giving other vaccines. I admit this is the subject I did no research on before giving birth. :( The knot still has not gone away.

[dana b]

Also IIRC, you are still bfing so if you're immune to cp, and you expose her to it while natalie is still bfing or with 4-6 weeks after being weaned(that's how long your immunity will last in her system) she likely won't catch it.

yep, dd caught it at 18 mos (exactly 2 mos after weaning) - she came down with all kinds of crazy stuff right after i weaned. i was surprised at how easily she caught it -- she hadn't been around any other kids or anyone who we knew who had it, the only thing i could think of was a shopping trip to target. she also came down w/ pneumonia about a month later, which was possibly due to the cp, i forgot to ask our ped if he thought so. both were so super mild and i'm still thankful that she caught cp naturally. one issue though -- since she caught it so young and had such a mild case, we'll still need to have her titers tested later.

splitting mmr i can try to figure out where i saw it, but i believe there was a pharmacy that people were able to call and order it separately for their dr to administer. also, i've heard of people being able to talk their ped's into ordering the separate doses and offering to pay for whatever single doses don't end up being used, it doesn't end up being *that* expensive. i haven't asked our ped about splitting it yet, but i've read on other boards that he does. our ped is pro-vaxing, but uses a different schedule and i think the majority of his practice probably doesn't vax at all.

[HGMorgann]

Seeing that immunity for the CP vax wears off and statistically it is unlikely that many adults would make sure that they are immune and stay up to date on vaccinations, I (and my ped) believe that basically we will see an epidemic of adult chicken pox which is has more complications than CP in a child. A healthy child rarely has complications from CP.

[alisong]

Hep B - I think part of the rationale for giving hep B at birth/very early is that the younger a person is when they are exposed the greater chance they have of becoming a carrier, and of subsequently developing liver cancer. That said, we haven't given hep B yet because DS isn't in daycare (about the only possible source of infection given that I'm vaccinated).

CP - Can someone explain to me why the CP vaccine will cause an increase in singles? Is it just because the vaccine isn't lifelong? Is there evidence that infection with CP later in life leads to an increase in shingles?

(I'll also admit to a mildly pro-vax stance, I'm an epidemiologist.)

[Toonces]

CP - Can someone explain to me why the CP vaccine will cause an increase in singles? Is it just because the vaccine isn't lifelong? Is there evidence that infection with CP later in life leads to an increase in shingles?

It's our Ped's theory that our continued exposure to the CP is what helps our immune systems keep the shingles dormant. I think right now 10-20% of adults who have had CP develop shingles. Our Ped thinks that # will rise significantly with the CP vax.

[dionysia]

I posted this link already:
http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm

It shows what vaccines have no thimerisol content and those which have trace amounts.

Di

[dionysia]

I am not sure if we are going to get the CP vax for our son. Oddly enough, it's me who needs to get the vax soon after he's born, since I've never had chicken pox! ;)

Di

[allyray231]

Anyone know anything about the new Hep A shot they are offering now? A few of the May mommies have had it at their 15 month WBV and I am just not sure why they are giving it now and what are the advantages/disadvantages

TIA!

[Kanga]

lml - maybe if you tell your ped you'd like her to have a chance at catching it naturally first, and then you'll follow up with the vax at x date if she hasn't caught it or proved to be immune before then she'll back off? Otherwise, this is what I tell my ped if she persists on her pet vax - pertussis - "It's not up for discussion." and repeat as necessary. You can also change peds to one that's more open to non/selec vaxxing if you're not attatched to this one already.

CP - Can someone explain to me why the CP vaccine will cause an increase in singles? Is it just because the vaccine isn't lifelong? Is there evidence that infection with CP later in life leads to an increase in shingles?

The vaccine has only been out for 15 years (91), and IIRC it wasn't until 95 when the vaccine became popular, so there's no way of doing any studies yet. The virus is also extremely weak in the vax in order to not cause the recipient to catch cp from the vaccine, so I just don't see how it could be lifelong. Also, CP is one of the diseases that always seems to have outbreaks in schools where the vast majority are vaxxed. According to 909shot.com, all vaccines have temporary immunity. It will be extremely difficult to ever prove that vaccines have lifelong immunity. They've only been around for about 65 years, and I don't believe any of the original ones are still used today, so really even less than 65 years that they have to go off of. Also, is it the vaccine that provides continuing immunity, or is it contact with infected persons that boosts the immune system that keeps the immunity strong? We'll never know for sure until once the diseases are eradicated and titers are done.

Hepatitis A - children who have it rarely show any symptoms, but it can be much more serious in adults, although it very rarely causes death. This is from 909shot.com
The CDC states that persons at high risk for hepatitis A are household and sexual contacts of infected persons; drug users; persons traveling to countries where hepatitis A is common; and persons living in regions where there are "consistently increased rates of hepatitis A." 1 The best tool for prevention of hepatitis A is to wash your hands with soap and water after using the bathroom, changing a diaper or preparing and eating food.

It's contracted by oral contact with infected feces and thus thrives in areas of poor sanitation such as the homeless and those who are living in very poor conditions.

So basically if you practice good hygeine and have clean water, and your sexual partner does not have hepA, then you can't catch it.
SmithKline Beecham states "At present the duration of protection afforded [by HAVRIX] has not been established. Therefore it is unknown if the protection provided to immunized children will last until adulthood."

Splitting the MMR vaccine into three separate doses given at three different times would cause more discomfort from additional injections and would leave children exposed to potentially serious diseases. For instance, if rubella vaccine were delayed, 4 million children would be susceptible to rubella for an additional 6 to 12 months. This would potentially allow otherwise preventable cases of congenital rubella syndrome (CRS) to occur through transmission of rubella from infected children to pregnant women. Ironically, infection of pregnant woman with "wild" rubella virus is one of the few known causes of autism. Thus, by preventing rubella infection of pregnant women, MMR vaccine also prevents autism.

This is the beef I have with the CDC and the gov't in general. They want me to put my chid more at risk by not splitting the MMR or skipping it all together in hopes she would develop natural immunity to it and never have to worry about it just so she can protect other people? I'm sorry, but my daughter comes first before some random pregnant woman. Also, birth defects and neurological problems in utero caused by rubella can be prevented by making sure you are taking in enough Vitamin A. Rubella causes a vit A deficiency which then in turn can cause problems for fetuses, but if you are getting adequate vit A, then rubella can not harm the fetus. Rubella is also only a risk if the pregnant woman is in her first tri.

[dana b]

what about rotovirus? isn't there a new one that's going back on the schedule?

[Kanga]

Oddly enough, it's me who needs to get the vax soon after he's born, since I've never had chicken pox!


I can't remember if it was this thread or the other one that I posted this, but anyway, since CP is a live vaccine it sheds and therefore those who are not immune (such as your baby) can catch it so it's best to wait until you are comfortable enough with him catching it.

[dionysia]

I can't remember if it was this thread or the other one that I posted this, but anyway, since CP is a live vaccine it sheds and therefore those who are not immune (such as your baby) can catch it so it's best to wait until you are comfortable enough with him catching it.My OB said to get the vax asap after birth. She knows I plan to breastfeed.

I will double-check with her however about when to get the vax.

Di

[Toonces]

what about rotovirus? isn't there a new one that's going back on the schedule?

Good question. I think they had one sometime in the last 6-12 months, but I don't know what the status is of it now. DD has had rotavirus 3 times. I know the first time is the worst (she actually gave it to me when I was 4 weeks PG - UGH!!). Her subsequent cases were extremely mild. I don't know that if she gets it from here on out how it would be - for example if she catches it again next January and hasn't had it since March, will it be bad all over again? I think we'd opt against that vax too since even at it's worst, it wasn't life threatening for DD. Of course she was nursing like a fiend then too so that might have helped. Curious to know what everyone else thinks about this one.

[alisong]

catgirl - That's an interesting theory! I'll have to give it some thought. My gut reaction is that it's not all that plausible because I'd imagine repeated exposure to CP would cause a surge in antibodies, when cell mediated immunity is what helps maintain latency (i.e. keep a virus dormant). Hmm.

I know it's probably too soon for most of us to be considering, but does anyone have early opinions on the new cervical cancer (HPV) vaccine?

[mimieliza]

Hep B - I think part of the rationale for giving hep B at birth/very early is that the younger a person is when they are exposed the greater chance they have of becoming a carrier, and of subsequently developing liver cancer.

But how would my young baby be exposed to HepB? I worked in a prison and received a lot of education about HepB, and I was doubtful about the necessity of the vax for myself. I ended up getting the vax, but it just isn't spread all that easily. Even sexual contact doesn't spread it all that easily - it really spreads through blood contact (such as IV drug use, which is why it was so common among inmates). Anyway, I really am curious about how an infant can be exposed, other than through birth if the mother has HepB.

HepB is one I am pretty sure we will skip at first (unless I read some more about possibilities for exposure in infants and young children). I'll have it done before she starts school, but I don't want to add it to the mix the first year.

I think I'm planning to get all other first-year vaxes, but may postpone MMR and Varicella.

I'm concerned about the new rotovirus vax. Rotovirus sounds like something we'd want to avoid, but I'm nervous about getting a brand new vax that hasn't been administered to a large population yet.

[basketcase]

There was a rotavirus vaccine several years ago, but they discontinued it because it was causing dangerous bowel obstruction in infants. The new (oral) rotavirus vaccine is now available. The CDC recommends three doses for infants at two, four, and six months.

Our pediatrician does not administer this vaccine because, in her opinion, it's still too new. Our child(ren) will not be getting this vaccine.

My son had rotavirus this past spring. It was certainly no fun, but it's nothing I would vaccinate against (personally). However, I can see how the new rotavirus vaccine would be beneficial in developing countries where getting the hydration one needs to overcome rotavirus is an issue.

[dana b]

rotavirus we definitely won't get it, i was just wondering if it's on the list yet (for ds due next month) and if they're making it one of the required vaxes vs. recommended. there's no way i'd use a brand new vax after what happened with the last rotavirus vaccine.
there's much more on what happened with the last one, this is just what i could find quickly (from a usa today article)
The first rotavirus vaccine, RotaShield, developed by Wyeth and licensed in 1998, was pulled from the market a year later because the vaccine, made with a form of monkey virus, caused intussusception, a dangerous bowel obstruction

for catgirl - from cdc
Although children can be infected with rotavirus several times during their lives, initial infection after age 3 months is most likely to cause severe diarrhea and dehydration (30,42,43). After a single natural infection, 40% of children are protected against any subsequent infection with rotavirus, 75% are protected against diarrhea from a subsequent rotavirus infection, and 88% are protected against severe diarrhea. Second, third, and fourth infections confer progressively greater protection (30).

[Toonces]

alisong ~ That's a plausible explanation, too. I guess I didn't question our Ped much b/c any vax he wants to delay, esp for an illness that for a majority of the population is not life threatening, then I'm on board with that.

HPV vax ~ Another good question... I have HPV. I was DX'd in 2001, had a biopsy and the biopsy ended up removing the harmful cells. Let me tell you, that biopsy was not pleasant. I haven't had a positive pap since then, had no problems with being PG and delivering my DD, and haven't had any probs with my 2nd pregnancy. HPV does scare the cr@p out of me though. I'm on the fence with this one. I'm one of those ppl who doesn't like meds and is skeptical of vaxes. I've had allergic reactions to 7 meds in my lifetime so I'm sure my views are slanted b/c of that.

HepB ~ Our first Ped started the series with DD in the hospital. This was before I was more knowledgeable about vaxes. :o Our current Ped (we switched for lots of reasons) delays the HepB virus b/c babies are in a low risk category for actually contracting HepB.

dana b ~ Thanks for the CDC rotavirus info. Hopefully we're out of the woods with that one now.... well, until DC#2 catches it for the first time. That is a nasty disease.

[lml41981]

lml - maybe if you tell your ped you'd like her to have a chance at catching it naturally first, and then you'll follow up with the vax at x date if she hasn't caught it or proved to be immune before then she'll back off? Otherwise, this is what I tell my ped if she persists on her pet vax - pertussis - "It's not up for discussion." and repeat as necessary. You can also change peds to one that's more open to non/selec vaxxing if you're not attatched to this one already.
That's her thing...is that she wants to vax kids before they get it naturally because she says she has seen kids even now die from complications. That actually concerns me because if kids are dying from complications, then they are not getting adequate medical care. She didn't say they were her patients, just that she's seen it. So, I don't know that she'd be open to waiting to see if she gets it naturally since she wants to prevent that from happening.

I really think I'll just have to do the, "No, I want to wait awhile and do more research on my own..." and then just not do it. We are pretty attached to her because she's pro-breastfeeding and anti-drugs unless absolutely necessary (heh...except most vaccines...she won't do Gardisil unless a parent demands it). I don't want to have to find another ped. If she will accept our choice on this, we'll stick with her. If she fires us, then I guess I don't want that kind of doctor anyway. She's respectful in every other aspect, though, so I hope this won't be her deal breaker.

[Rico'sAlice]

chicken pox for one...assuming there is no thimerasol in it, what is in it that makes you not want it?
i know there is a lot of controversy surrounding the MMR vax, specifically a link to autism (even though they don't use thimerasol anymore?).

Question though, it was my understanding that the MMR never contained thimerisol as it did not need a preservative. So wouldn't the speculation of the "link to autism" be some other factor other than thimerisol?

Neither the Varicella (chix pox) nor MMR (or the individual/split-up shots) have ever contained thimerosol. Thimerisol is a preservative that would kill the live virus used in these.

[OP- Not sure how we’re defining “debate” vs. controversy vs. information. Let me know if I should edit anything]

RE: Vax & Autism-
I think it is unfortunate that the issue got so oversimplified in the media- I think it is partially the fault of how some Autism and/or anti-vax activists framed things, but also just the way the media presents things in general. I think it sets up an incorrect paradigm and allows people to feel like taking thimerisol out of the vax makes everything all better. The aluminum & formaldehyde remain; the live vaccines continue to introduce viruses to the body in a wholly unnatural way, etc. There are dangers from vaccines completely separate from the autism issue (For me, autism is not at the top of my worry list as far as vax damage) And there are cases of autism in children who have never been vaccinated. That doesn't mean that there isn't a relationship. Whatever conclusion one may draw at the end of the research process I think we are all shortchanged (on both sides) when the issue is oversimplified.

I believe that in most cases there are a number of factors that must work (or rather malfunction) together to produce autism. [There seem to be a very small percentage of people who end up with ASD purely from genetics, and that has probably been the case for centuries.]
The process probably starts with nutritional deficiencies, esp minerals,
in the mother’s diet during pregnancy & BFing and/or in child's diet.
Bad diet makes viruses worseMaternal selenium nutrition and neonatal immune system development.[/COLOR] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12169835


This can be due to SAD (Standard American Diet), soil depletion Mineral levels in meat and milk plummet over 60 years
http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1700223,00.html, history of BC pills[Hormone use causes zinc deficiency, http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/eletters/330/7487/342etc. Polycystic ovarian syndrome, the Pill and mineral deficiencies.http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/eletters/317/7154/329#69506
Then there are problems with gut flora. Either mom (during preg & BF) or child has taken antibiotics, & does not eat enough cultured/fermented foods. The Bacterial Flora of Humans. Scroll down to "THE BENEFITS OF THE NORMAL FLORA
The indigenous bacteria of the gastrointestinal tract of an animal, perhaps mainly as a consequence of their great numbers, seem to have the greatest overall impact on their host."
http://textbookofbacteriology.net/normalflora.html


In the meantime the child has been building up mercury in the body from mom (fillings, fish, etc.), certain vaxes.

There are other metals and toxins associated w/ ASD as well. (mercury, cadmium, nickel, trichloroethylene and vinyl chloride) (http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/health/HealthRepublish_309902.htm"http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/health/HealthRepublish_309902.htm Metallothionein protein plays an important role in regulation of zinc and copper levels in the blood http://www.biowaves.com/Articles/MT/Metallothionein01.phpIn February of 2000, William Walsh, Ph.D. of the Pfeiffer Treatment Center, discovered that most autistic clients exhibit MT dysfunction and that the classic signs of autism can be explained by a MT dysfunction. He proposed that autism results from an intersection of two factors. One, a genetic defect involving marginal or defective MT functioning followed by two, an environmental insult during early development.

Then the MMR is given and due to all this damage (& the unnatural method of introduction) the measles virus is able to set up camp in the gut. Elevated rubella titers are also found in kids w/ ASD, suggesting that it too can produce chronic immune response. (http://www.vaccinationnews.com/DailyNews/February2002/PRElevRubeolaTitersAut.htm)

There are also issues with opioid overload- casein & gluten are turned into morphine-like substance by the body. Not a big deal for most of us, but when you have enzyme deficiencies so you don’t break things down enough and a leaky gut on top of that you get overwhelmed. This is why so many with ASD are helped by a gluten & dairy free diet.
More of GFCF diet and the "opioid theory of autism"http://www.gfcfdiet.com/Explanationofdiet.htm http://www.autismndi.com/news/display.asp?content=Resources&shownews=20040721150209


Mostly, I am just typing what I can remember off of the top of my head. I will have to come back later and add references. More discussion along these lines (very long thread) can be found at http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=367180&highlight=autism (”http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=367180&highlight=autis”)
http://www.ont-autism.uoguelph.ca/jory-autism-jun02.html"Recent Theories for the Pathophysiology of Autism: Brain autoimmunity; Deficits in sulfur metobolism; Abnormal liver detoxification; Gastrointestinal abnormalities"

http://www.gnd.org/autism/overview.htm Links to ref article abstracts are in original doc for each of these points. There are some things Bradstreet ignores, but it is a good startWhat caused the immune injury or alterations? A genetic weakness (C4B null allele) and/or redisposition, combined with one or more of the following:
-ack! my post is too long, there were 10 items here-you'll just have to go to the link-

1) Shortened or absent breast-feeding preventing the full development of transferred cellular immunity. (Fudenberg)
2) Early gluten (usually wheat) introduction prior to one year of age. Wheat has been genetically manipulated in the last 100 years to increase the gluten content.
3) Early use of cow's milk or casein based formulas.
4) Immunizations with live viruses, especially the MMR after 1978. There is frequent regression after the MMR vaccine that has been observed and published (Wakefield). Other vaccinations and the resulting effects on interleukin or autoimmunity. (Singh) DPT (especially if whole cell pertussis is used) and HepB (not live viruses) may also play a role in immune alterations.
5) Use of antibiotics and resulting yeast and pathogenic bacteria infection or overgrowth, with resulting immune modification and toxic exposure. (Shaw, Fudenberg, Wuepper)
6) Maternal allergy, chronic fatigue syndrome, or leaky gut problems that caused the child to be pre-sensitized in the womb. (Fudenberg)
7) Leaky gut from any number of the above or also related to parasites or GI infections in the child that allow gluten and casein to leak into the bloodstream.

Interesting new article on epigenetics- http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/bodyandhealth/story.html?id=d6cb520e-679a-4108-b820-a8f24943a4c4 Does not talk about autism, but helps explain how the rate of "genetic" sensitivity of toxins, MV, dietary factors, etc. could have accelerated so rapidly.

This is just a brief skim of some of the items that surround the mercury/MMR/Autism conundrum. Things are still much more complex than this. One guy I work with was plunged into autism immediately after his MMR, but his mom didn’t believe the connection & continued to vax. Then at ~7 he was getting a tetanus booster (not sure which type) and manifested Turrets syndrome w/in a week. He also fell ill (fever and such) and when he recovered had developed significant mood swings and began to act in a violent and destructive manner; he has since been diagnosed as bi-polar. (Of course, the Tylenol she gave to reduce his fever probably added to his problem) Why did the vax affect his brain in such a strange manner when I had all the same ones without any (as of yet detectable) problem?

No more room in this post. If there is a specific item anyone wants me to (try to) explain or give more/better refs for just let me know.

[Toonces]

Why did the vax affect his brain in such a strange manner when I had all the same ones without any (as of yet detectable) problem?

That's awful! I really feel for your co-worker. Like you though, I wonder why does this happen to some children and not others? My mom was PG with me in 1969, lived in San Antonio, ate $1.99 Mexican food buffets, drank iced tea, I'm sure wasn't taking vitamins, BF me for 4 months, but gave me solids (pureed meat - eeewww) at 3 weeks, and I've had all my vaxes. I do have horrific allergies, but that's nothing compared to what your co-worker experienced.

[tgal]

OMG, this thread took off, how wonderful. You ladies are a wealth of information and it is much appreciated as I too didn't too much other research than read the book. So, our ped and the book conflict quite a bit. I will definitely look into everything you all suggested, thanks again and I look forward to being further educated here. :D

[Kanga]

[OP- Not sure how we’re defining “debate” vs. controversy vs. information. Let me know if I should edit anything]

Since "debate" can be defined in so many different ways, I think we're good so far because no one IMO has been disrespectful of anyone else's choice/opinion or started beating a dead horse while on a soapbox. (where aer those smilies anyways:p )

But how would my young baby be exposed to HepB?

Unless they were sexually abused or the mother had Hep B, then they can't. The gov't wants to vax everybody though with the hopes of eradicating the disease. But since nobody really knows how long immunity lasts (i've heard around 5-10 years depending on who you ask) I bet it's sometime off before.

what about rotovirus? isn't there a new one that's going back on the schedule?

Well, I don't do any vaxes, but you'd have to kill me before I did a new vax. I'll try to find a link on how they test for safety. Momtezuma Tuatara's book, Just a little Prick, goes into how they test vaccines for safety. From what I remember, they test 100 healthy kids, but then license it for those that were excluded in the test group... I'll be back after look up what their definition of healthy is, but basically, they can not have any disease, such as type 1 diabetes, had their cord blood drawn, really any physical or neurological problems at all, and then watch them for 2 days afterwards for any reactions and check titers. I'm assuming bowel obstruction would take longer than 2 days and that's why it went unnoticed before it was released to the general public.

And just like tetanus, since having it doesn't mean lifelong immunity, how in the world is a vax supposed to give immunity?

That's her thing...is that she wants to vax kids before they get it naturally because she says she has seen kids even now die from complications.

Well, you can die from just about anything. I might die in a car accident on the way to get groceries today, or never wake up after I go to sleep tonight, etc, etc. It's funny, because I don't remember kids dropping like flies when the vax wasn't available and I was in school. Even the common cold can cause death if everything is "right", especially in an immune-compromised person, such as one with AIDS. Saying something like that w/out giving exact numbers is just a scare tactic. We also don't know anything about the kids who died. Maybe they weren't healthy to begin with,I'll try to find the exact numbers. Here (http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/pink/appendices/G/cases&deaths.pdf) it is...last I could find was 2003 and a whopping 16 people died, meaning they could have been kids or adults.

That actually concerns me because if kids are dying from complications, then they are not getting adequate medical care. She didn't say they were her patients, just that she's seen it.

Actually, the exact opposite is probably true. They were probably given antibiotics and tylenol.

HPV vax - It acts very much like CP after you're over it. It remains in the body, but you'd never know it with the exception of a few people who have problems from it. It's also a new vax, so until it's been out for at least a few years, the safety is mostly unknown (think RotaShield). They started out by saying they only want girls around 10-12 years of age, but now it's suddenly becoming 5 year olds, boys and girls.

chicken pox for one...assuming there is no thimerasol in it, what is in it that makes you not want it?
i know there is a lot of controversy surrounding the MMR vax, specifically a link to autism (even though they don't use thimerasol anymore?).

FTR, autism and thimerosal are not at the top of my list of things I am skeptical about in vaxes. I'm glad they have drastically reduced the am't in vaxes, assuming that's true - HGMorgan I'd love to read the article you're referring to if you can find it - but it doesn't make me want to rush out and get dd caught up on her vaxes. What I'm most worried about are the carcinogens, adjuvents, rheumatoid arthritis, juvenile diabetes, and catching the disease in adulthood after immunity has worn off. Should I give dd the CP vax now, she'd be more at risk for catching it in her teen years and having more serious complications. I'd rather have her catch it now, get lifelong immunity and at the very most, come down with shingles.

I posted this on the front page as well, but now it's not only the CDC that has a conflict of interst, but now the FDA as well. http://www.newstarget.com/z020118.html

[BeachBum]

If anyone has more information on how to order the MMR separate I would like it. I'm in Florida if it matters. Cost isn't the issue.

My doc has said that it simply can't be done in the US. That if I wanted them split I would have to go to Europe and it would be an entirely different form of the vax.

DS turns 1yr next month and we have not vaxxed....I'm so torn on what to do.

[Kanga]

Beachbum - Your dr. is misinformed or lying...there are plenty of moms on MDC and probably here as well that have gotten seperate MMR's. I'd start calling around to different offices and see if they have it or can get it. You might have to switch and become their patient, but you can always switch back as well. Go to the Finding your tribe (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/forumdisplay.php?f=77) forum on MDC and find your general area in florida and see if anybody else knows where you can get it in your area. There is nothing magical about being a year for the MMR, it's just the earliest teh vax makers. Your ds is at no greater risk of catching any of those diseases (and they used to be common childhood diseases) at 1 year than he is now or 3 mo ago, or 6 mo ago, etc. So if you're not comfortable giving it to him, then just tell him you'd like to delay it until you have more time to research it(you can tell him you're doing the seperate ones, but he probably won't believe you) and then when you do get them, show him the records.

BTW - while we're talking about splitting up vaxes, you can also have the DTaP split up as well. DTaP is one of the vaccines that causees the most reactions. There is an increase in SIDS at 2mo, and 4mo, coincidentally or not when most kids receive their 2 and 4mo shots of DTaP.

You can see the number of cases and deathshere (http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/pink/appendices/G/cases&deaths.pdf)for any VPD, although 2003 is the most current info. Measles and Rubella have probably gone down further, and I believe mumps was estimated to be around 1000 cases in 06.

More on HPV - Like the flu shot and pneumococcal (Prevnar) shot, it only protects against certain strains. Also, here is a quote from post #4 on an MDC thread (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=507903)

They're not telling women that in clinical trials, those who had been already infected with a cancer-causing strain of HPV and then got the HPV vaccine were more likely to develop cancer.

So according to this, catgirl1007, you shouldn't get the vaccine. Somebody also said that it states on the company website that having cervical cancer is a contraindiction to the vaccine.

dionysia One more thing I forgot to mention - you can have your titers checked to see if you are immune to CP - many people never develop symptoms to CP but are still immune. They draw your blood for various other things soon after birth, so it wouldn't even be an extra needle prick.

Does anyone have any information on how many doses of each vaccine is recommended if you do a delayed schedule? I know that you need less doses if you wait until a certain age (1+?) but can't seem to find any info on it.

[Marisa]

Kanga -- I know that there are several vaxes that we skipped, that lose their efficacy after age 2, I believe. There are a few that Joey will never get now.

I've got a toddler in my lap so I can't google right now, but I believe I found the info just on the regular state chart of when vaxes should be administered... check your state's health dept. website.

[Delta]

Just FYI - The MMR never had thimerosal in it. Its supposed link to autism has to do with the measles virus that is found in the bowel of kids who've been diagnosed as autistic. The MMR is also thought to trigger a negative autoimmune response in certain susceptible children (as is I guess the thimerosal in other vaxes of old.)

FTR, I'm holding off on MMR as long as possible. I don't feel any rush to get it done.

My biggest concern about vaxes isn't really even the thimerosal. I don't think it's healthy to immunize a young baby for 7 different diseases at one time. I wouldn't even do that to myself. There is nothing wrong with being thoughtful about what goes into your kids' bodies and why. The schedule is developed with overall public health in mind - via impersonal statistics - not your individual child.

[Marisa]

My biggest concern about vaxes isn't really even the thimerosal. I don't think it's healthy to immunize a young baby for 7 different diseases at one time. I wouldn't even do that to myself. There is nothing wrong with being thoughtful about what goes into your kids' bodies and why. The schedule is developed with overall public health in mind - via impersonal statistics - not your individual child.

I agree with this. This is why we've selectively vaxed, starting at 2 months, on our own schedule. I have enough faith in myself that I will keep up with his shots at an appropriate time, and be "caught up" with the remaining vaxes by the time he needs to be in a school environment.

The exceptions, of course, for us -- the vaxes he would no longer need (the ones given in infancy that are no longer effective -- I delayed as long as I did because I'm lucky enough to stay home with him)... and chicken pox, I really hope he gets it naturally, but it is required by public schools in NJ.

[kmack]

thanks for the clarification Rico's Alice and others - i didn't realize the live vaxs never had thimerosal.

your post was very interesting and brings up my husband's boggest sticking point as to why DD should get all vaxs as directed by the dr and exactly when she tells us to(basically he will do anything a dr. says even if it is the most ridiculous, unheard of thing , just because a 'doctor' said so, but onto my point)...if they were so harmful, how come he and i never developed problems from it, or any of our nieces and newphews, etc. etc.

your post gives me more ammo for my argument, i never really could explain why it happens to some and not to others.

basically vaccinations just scare me to death. in 'what your dr. may not tell you...", i can't even read the little sidebars anymore about children who changed right after a vax. it just gives me a knot in my stomach to think about something like that happening to one of my children. my sister does not vaccinate but i don't think i could go totally in that direction either.

question my husband has never had the chicken pox and DD just got her vax, the ped. never said anything about him potentially being exposed to it b/c it is a live virus. should i bring it up??

[Marisa]

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5451-Immunizationa1.htm?s_cid=mm5451-Immunizationa1_e

Scroll down to the "catch-up" schedule ... in the footnotes it says that Hib and PCV are not recommended after age 5.

[Kanga]

Scroll down to the "catch-up" schedule ... in the footnotes it says that Hib and PCV are not recommended after age 5.


This also means that if your chid starts school after age 5, they can not exclude you from school if your child doesn't have them based on that alone.

[Rico'sAlice]

That's awful! I really feel for your co-worker.
Not that this is important, but when I said I worked w/ him, I meant I was taking care of him.

[lml41981]

[In response to my comment about kids who died from CP complications not getting adequate care...]
Actually, the exact opposite is probably true. They were probably given antibiotics and tylenol.
That was my point...you don't treat a virus with antibiotics and the antibiotics kill off the good bacteria that helps the body fight the CP. Then, I suppose the Tylenol taxes the liver, which is already in overdrive fighting the virus (not to mention it brings down the fever, which is needed to fight the virus).

Improper care is inadequate care, which was what I failed to get at. ;)

[Kanga]

Improper care is inadequate care, which was what I failed to get at.


Gotchya - I assumed you had meant no medical care after a complication arose.

This thread goes into more detail on why one should receive antibiotics, analgesics, steriods, and tylenol should not be used to treat viruses, CP in particular. It also goes into some detail about nutrition and why one isn't normally hungry when they are sick.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=209443

ETA - I'm going to put on the front page why I've chosen to avoid all vaccines, but I don't think it's fair or right to only have my opinion on there when clearly there are a bunch more. I don't want people who are just skimming through the thread to think it's mostly all non-vaxxers and be turned off by that, so I'm looking for a few people who would want to write a couple paragraphs for the front page on why they've choosen what to do what they've done/are going to do

[dionysia]

Kanga,
Thank you for your ETA. I hate to say it, but it's cemented for me that I won't participate in this thread anymore.

I was hoping this would actually be a factual, informational thread rather than one of opinions and speculation.

Oh well.

(no hard feelings, really! :) )

Di

[Kanga]

Kanga,
Thank you for your ETA. I hate to say it, but it's cemented for me that I won't participate in this thread anymore.

I was hoping this would actually be a factual, informational thread rather than one of opinions and speculation.

Oh well.

(no hard feelings, really! :) )

Di

Uh, I thought it was factual.:confused: Of course my opinions and as well as others, some who disagree with me, have been posted in the thread, but I didn't think it would cause people to feel judged (which is I assume why you're leaving?) In any event, I'm sorry I made you feel that way.

[kmack]

how is this thread not factual? almost everyone who has stated their opinion has posted a link to support why they feel that way, no?

FWIW kanga i think you (and everyone else) were just stating your 'facts' and were not trying to shove your opinions/beliefs down anyone throats. that being said, maybe we can make this a non/selective vaccination thread instead. it really is such a touchy subject i don't know how all views can be posted in here without there being a debate stirred up. someone who is pro-vaccination maybe could start a separate thread - i know i would certainly read through both b/c i would love to hear the facts from both sides since i am sort of in the middle right now.

[Marisa]

This also means that if your chid starts school after age 5, they can not exclude you from school if your child doesn't have them based on that alone.

This is what I think will happen with us -- my son was born in January and will therefore be 5 1/2 when we're registering him for Kindergarten... so at that point it's moot.

If it were to happen that I'd have to go back to work before then, or something, necessitating him being in a daycare/school setting -- we'd work to catch him up on what we've delayed for now. As it is, though, I'm pleased with the way we were able to get only some when he was younger, and wait until he's three or older (after 01/07) for the ones I wanted to wait on.

There's no reason why you can't be pro-vax and still anti-'official schedule' at the same time. :)

[NYN]

if people don't want to read along b/c they don't think the information is factual then that is fine, whatever. please let's not turn this into a debate thread b/c i will be really upset. :(

There's no reason why you can't be pro-vax and still anti-'official schedule' at the same time.
very true. since no one seems to be posting why they chose to vaccinate i will share my story.

we vaccinated my DD against HepB at 4 months (her first vaccination). at the time we thought that she would start daycare at 5.5 months (this daycare requires HepB) but i actually ended up staying home until she was a year. my DD will start daycare next month (13.5 months) and she will have had 3 rounds of HepB, 2 of DTaP, 2 of IPV and 1 of Hib. we will not follow up on the Hib vax (regret having the first one done in the first place) and we are not doing CP or MMR at this time. if when she starts kindergarten we still do not want to finish the required vaxxes we will seek a religious exemption (the only one available for NYS).

things i have learned/wish i had done differently: i stayed w/ my pediatrician out of loyalty (she was my doctor as a kid) and convenience (she is two blocks away) but in hindsight i wish i had sought a doctor who was more in tune w/ my ideas. i feel like she is very used to dealing with a population who believes everything their doctor says and she used scare tactics to get us to vaccinate. for example, she knew that we had decided not to do Hib b/c we hadn't had time to research it so she threw out false "statistics" at us. when i got home and began researching it, i found out a bunch of information, including that my daughter's chances of contracting Hib disease are slim to none simply b/c she is breastfed. anyway, my point is i wish i had gone to a doctor who i could have had a rational conversation with, who didn't lie to me. i will always have regrets b/c i allowed her to let me doubt myself even though i knew better. so that is my biggest piece of advice: get a good doctor. whatever "good" means is relative of course.

my second piece of advice, as someone else mentioned previously, is never vaccinate unless you have researched it up, down, sideways and other ways. as someone else said, you can always vaccinate but you can never take that vaccination back. you wouldn't allow your child to eat or drink something if you didn't know what it was. be dilligent in that way w/ everything that goes into your child's body, including vaxx's.

just my 2 cents.

[VoiceOfReason]

Newbie here...Just read through the first couple pages of posts. I assume this thread is dedicated to facts as well as some assumptions (i.e., interpretation of facts). I would like to try to offer some objective observations. In the 3rd post by Kanga, you listed the 2003 numbers of reported cased and deaths. I need to point out that the author of that original data strongly cautions that the data "reported" is likely very low as compared to the actual numbers of cases. Many thousands of pertussis cases are misdiagnosed yearly. Your conclusion also states that the CDC numbers of adverse events exceeds the numbers of deaths. Please, remember that is is because of vaccines being used for so many years that the incidence of these diseases is so incredibly low! Your own "links" point that out repeatedly- WHO and Canadian and European and US studies all have pointed that out (there is no US Government conspiracy going on here...these are worlwide, independant studies). About the only reason that anyone can even consider to "not immunize" their child is because the vaccines exist and have been used.
That being said... I certainly feel that the schedule of vaccines is "nebulous" at best, and does not have as much data supporting it.

[kmack]

more questions:

so overall is the reasoning behind delaying vaxs to let the child's immune system become stronger?

recently there has been an 'outbreak' of measles in the boston area MA Health Alert (http://www.mass.gov/dph/cdc/epii/imm/alerts/measles_alert_20060607.pdf#search='measles%20cases %20in%20ma')i know if/when i ask to delay the MMR vax the ped. is going to bring this up and scare me into getting it. would this affect anyone's decision at all?

[lml41981]

more questions:

so overall is the reasoning behind delaying vaxs to let the child's immune system become stronger?

recently there has been an 'outbreak' of measles in the boston area MA Health Alert (http://www.mass.gov/dph/cdc/epii/imm/alerts/measles_alert_20060607.pdf#search='measles%20cases %20in%20ma')i know if/when i ask to delay the MMR vax the ped. is going to bring this up and scare me into getting it. would this affect anyone's decision at all?
My ped. said that if there was an outbreak in our area, she would want DD vaccinated. Honestly, I don't think that I would vaccinate even if there were an outbreak. I don't know for sure, though. I need to keep reading.

[Toonces]

so overall is the reasoning behind delaying vaxs to let the child's immune system become stronger?

recently there has been an 'outbreak' of measles in the boston area MA Health Alert (http://www.mass.gov/dph/cdc/epii/imm/alerts/measles_alert_20060607.pdf#search='measles%20cases %20in%20ma')i know if/when i ask to delay the MMR vax the ped. is going to bring this up and scare me into getting it. would this affect anyone's decision at all?

Our reasoning for delaying certain vaxes is catching the illness that it's supposed to prevent is less scary to us than our DD getting a vax that's filled with potentially harmful substances. That's just us though. I'm sure other parents have different reasons. After I learn more, I might add to that. I'm still not as informed as I'd like to be.

There was a measles outbreak in our area last Fall. DD turned 1 in October and was eligible to get the vax, but we opted to skip it and her Ped was fine with that. Measles is a typically mild disease that if caught early and monitored will not lead to further complications. I believe all of us are at risk for measles since the vax doesn't last a lifetime and it's more dangerous to catch measles at an older age than at a younger age (I can't remember how many years it lasts - maybe 7-10?? I think that's how long the rubella vax lasts).

I'm going off of memory re the above, so if anyone has addt'l info, please feel free to correct me.

[Kanga]

Well, you'll all probably think I'm wierd, and maybe you do already anyways :D , but I LIKE "outbreaks". I WANT to find measles, mumps, rubella, and CP so my dd never has to worry about it again. The reason I put outbreak in quotes is because there was an "outbreak" of polio in a northern state (Minnesota IIRC). A whopping 5 people were diagnosed. I don't know what everyones definition of "outbreak is, but to me 5 people is no where near an outbreak. Now the mumps outbreak here in the midwest, (only wish my dd was older at the time...I'd have been hunting down every college student I know) that to me was an outbreak. The latest estimate I heard was around 1000 - 1200 infected people, most at risk were 18-22, next was 22-40. They say they expect another outbreak as students return to school because the last one ended when school let out for the summer. I can only hope so, but since I haven't heard of anybody as of late that's contracted it, I doubt it.

BTW - before anybody freaks about the polio outbreak - the people who caught it were Amish (so maybe they didn't have clean enough water?) and caught it from the OPV (oral polio vaccine) which is no longer distributed in the U.S. because it's a live vaccine and you can catch polio from it. IPV which is what is currently available for polio, does not protect against OPV.

Seperate threads - I really don't care either way, but until somebody starts a pro-vax thread, this one will remain open and welcome for anybody as to not exclude anyone.

For those worried about what their peds will say when skipping/delaying some vax - usually they don't mind unless you are skipping all vaxes completey and if you do that, well then there's not much point behind WBV anyways. We take our dd to some here and there just to keep an ongoing relationship should dd become ill - then I will have a feel for what type of dr. she is - but I don't see the need to pay somebody $25 to weigh, meausure, and look in her ears. I can do that by myself at home for free. And if you're wavering or even if you're sure you want to skip delay - you can tell them you'd like to research before you do anything else. Any dr. that doesn't want you to do research outside of teh dr. on your child's health is a huge red flag to me. So don't let them scare you, do your own research, ask for their opinion if you'd like, and stay firm in your decision. If you're worried about being scared/pushed into it, bring your dh or somebody who you know will back you up.

My ped. said that if there was an outbreak in our area, she would want DD vaccinated.

The thing is, it's usually the vax kids with whatever disease the outbreak is. Mumps was recently here, and my sister is a college student. I asked her to ask around for me to see if she could find one person who knew they had never been vaccinated for mumps and had fallen ill and she couldn't. She did however find plenty of "fully vaxxed" (whatever that means anyways, they keep changing it) students who had gotten mumps. They've now changed it from 1 dose to 2, but I would think by the time your dc is able to receive 2 doses, the outbreak would be pretty much overwith. They also say around 97-98% are immune on the first dose, and the second "booster" (it's not really a booster, it's the same as the first one) is to catch that 2-3% that slipped through the cracks.

so overall is the reasoning behind delaying vaxs to let the child's immune system become stronger?


That is only part of it. Here's a link (http://www.vaccinationnews.com/DailyNews/October2001/MechEncephVax.htm), but basically it's also myelination which doesn't occur until birth, and occurs very fast for the first few years (every child is different, so there's no magical #, but usually between 3 and 4), then slows down after that. It is not complete until approx 20 years of age. Myelination is the coating of the nerve cells in the brain, and when interupted can cause all kinds of neurological problems such as ADD, ADHD, some say turette's although I don't think that one's been proven yet, some say autism, autism spectrum disorders, etc. There are other things, and probably a combo of things that can disrupt myelination, but all I can remember right now are vaxes, genetics, and mercury. Why one child is seemingly unaffected from receiving the same medical treatment as one who is severly affected has yet to be found. Also, at 2 or 3 or whenever you start vaxxing, the child is at a higher weight. There is no difference in a vaccine that 2mo old would receive vs an adult (assuming the vax is recommended for adults and babies alike, such as CP), except in some cases the vaccine an adult may get has less of the disease and some have mercury, although they are not regularly used. The adult vaccines have less of the disease in it because of higher reaction rates in adults. There's 2 theories on this - 1. That adults have better immune systems, therefore they react more/faster/better. 2. That babies can't communicate well, so they can't complain like an adult can.

Here is a thread (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=225389&highlight=Myelination) on myelination and others' experiences. In the What to Expect Series, it lists things you should go to the ER over if you child develops those symptoms, but yet under vaccinations, it lists identical symptoms under "normal behavior." So it's ok if the vax did it, but anything else should be cause for concern. :confused:

Ok...I got out the book "What to Expect the First Year" (the second of the what-to-expect series) and this is the direct quote : (minus italicies)
Encephalitis-
symptoms:Fever, drowsiness, headache (that would be fussiness?)sometimes...neurological imparement (seizures?) coma at late stage

Causes-bacteria or viruses
Call the doctor?- immediately or go to the ER
Treatment-hospitalization is required

Common reactions to DTP:
fever
fussiness
drowsiness
(amongst others pertaining to injection site)

When to call the doctor after the DTP : (notice no mention of the ER!!!!)
High pitched persistant crying for more than 3 hours
Excessive sleepiness (difficult to wake)
Unusual limpness or paleness
Rectal temperature of 104 or higher
Convulsions


ETA - Here is a link to most of the package inserts for vaccines and immunoglobulins licensed for use in the U.S. You should still ask to see the insert at the dr.'s office though to make sure it is what you want.

[kmack]

thanks for the info about myelination, i will read through it later.

the 'outrbreak' of measles was 11 people, not sure how you really define outbreak though...in the alert it says 7 cases had unknown immunization history, and four had been immunized against it.

[VoiceOfReason]

Whew! I just read the link on brain myelination...
Again, I am trying hard to be objective. The author does reference any studies that actually describe a link between vaccination and brain demyelination. I see hypothesis and conjecture, especially when read very closely.
My observation, using the authors same referenced studies, is that the actual incidence of encephalitis has remained stable (except outbreaks of LaCrosse E, West Nile E, tick-borne E and other infectious causes) despite Eurpoe and the US having the highest percentage of vaccinated children in the world. If there were a direct, causal link, the incidence could not be "covered up" by any organization. The numbers would be reflected in any research. Again, I must state that I not buy into any "conspiracy theory" that suggests that a cover-up of serious life-threatening side effects is happening. I just doesn't hold up in my reading of original research articles.

[VoiceOfReason]

NYN,
I am glad that you stay informed, and you look up your own data. I'm sorry to see that your data led you to believe that simply by breastfeeding your child you have a slim-to-none chance of her getting Hib meningitis. Hib meningitis used to be so prevalent (we're talking 15 years ago) that any time a baby went to the doctor with a high fever (over 101 in a child less than 4 months) it had to have a spinal-tap (lumbar puncture) to check for this disease and have 48 hours of Intravenous antibiotics until the culture from the spinal fluid had "grown" to prove it wasn't there. I am seriously talking about almost every child that didn't have any other obvious source of infection. Now that the Hib vaccine has been around for so long, Hib meningitis is so rare that it is rarely a part of the workup. That is the real reason your child has a low chance of "catching" Hib meningitis.

However, if a significant number of people opt out of getting the Hib vaccine series then it will become more prevalent, and the hospitals will end up having to do more invasive procedures. I live in an area with a high immigrant population. Infants in our area could possibly be exposed to "anything".

[littlebear]

I'm an epidemiologist and strongly pro-vax. I've vaxed my child completely on schedule according to my ped's recommendations because I believe that it's best not only for my child but for public health reasons as well. I fell there are well established epidemiologic principles and public health rationale behind many of the vax schedules and recommendations. IMO, there is also no strong scientific evidence showing causal links or even strong associations between vaxes and a variety of the purported illnesses that vaxes 'cause' while there is strong evidence in favor of the benefits of vaccination. Others will disagree with this, but I have formed by opinion based on my background in public health and my reading of the current body of peer-reviewed evidence available.

As for the definition of an outbreak....the official definition is the occurrence in a geographic area of cases of an illness with a frequency clearly in excess of what would normally be expected. The number of cases defining an outbreak can then vary based on the agent, the population at risk, time and place of occurrence. So while a handful of cases of polio may not seem like an outbreak, based on the epidemiologic definition the number of cases is far higher than would be expected in a given area in the US due to what is normally seen because of vaccine coverage.

Information from the CDC about the safety of multiple vaxes at once
http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/concerns/gen/multiplevac.htm

Summary of the Institute of Medicine Report reviewing a variety of issues

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/concerns/gen/multiplevac_iom.htm
There's a link on the page to the full report as well which is helpful if you want to get references for the actual peer-reviewed journal articles so that you can review them for yourself and form your own opinion.
The first report on Measles, Mumps, Rubella (MMR) vaccine and autism was released in April 2001 and the second report on thimerosal-containing vaccines and neurodevelopmental disorders was released in October 2001. On February 20 2002, the IOM released its third report which addressed multiple immunizations and immune dysfunction.

The IOM Immunization Safety Review Committee’s most important conclusions were

1. A review of the available scientific evidence does not support the hypothesis that the infant immune system is inherently incapable of handling the number of antigens that children are exposed to during routine immunizations,
2. The epidemiologic evidence (i.e., from studies of vaccine-exposed populations and their control groups) favors rejection of a causal relationship between multiple immunizations and increased risk for infections or for type 1 diabetes mellitus,
3. The epidemiologic evidence regarding increased risk for allergic disease, particularly asthma, was inadequate to accept or reject a causal relationship.

[HGMorgann]

QUOTE]About the only reason that anyone can even consider to "not immunize" their child is because the vaccines exist and have been used.
[/QUOTE]

This is a huge misconception. Most VPD that we vaccinate (I refuse to call it immunize because most is temporary) against are not to be feared or our children have no risk of.
HIB - she is breastfed and there is documented evidence that indicates the risk of reaction from the vaccine is greater than the risk of disease
HepB - sexually transmited disease. She can make the decision when she is older if she wants this vaccine
Diptheria - unsanitary living conditions. Risk minimal for those living in single family dwellings with proper sewage systems.
MMR/CP - Diseases that we feel comfortable with her getting as a child. You can call me a bad parent, I know better.


I too am highly educated. I can make educated decisions for my daughter. I also know that my ped. is highly educated and active in vaccine research. I trust him over pharmacuetically influenced mainstream doctors.

One my main concerns is that vaccines are tested on healthy children. There have not been studies on vaccines and fertility and other diseases. The increase in neurological problems, asthma, allergies, and yes, autism and other sensory spectrum disorders concern me.

One can not say that a vaccine will not harm/injure/kill their child. Babies die from vaccines, and yes, they die from VPD (and many many many other diseases, injuries, baths...).

The above listed report proves that there needs to be more research, because we can not say whether a vaccine causes autism/asthma, ect. What if it does? Where do we go from there? How about all the times that the medical community has been wrong...from formula being best to the old rotavirus vaccine. I will trust the knowlege that I have, my ped, and my mothering instincts over a mainstream, for-profit medical community that is constantly changing its story.

And yes, I have personally (IRL, not online) seen three of my friend's 12-15 mo. sons go from happy, talking, social babies to non-verbal, no eye contact, eventually diagnosed autistic children within 24 hours after receiving the MMR....and yes, that scares the crap out of me.

[littlebear]

FTR, I wasn't trying to start a debate. The point of this thread is to post information on vaxes from all sources. Someone also asked those who were pro-vax to post how they came to that decision so that's why I posted my background. I wasn't implying that those who chose not to vax were not educated. It's all a matter of how you interpret the research.

[Toonces]

Question~ Is it possible to have a hospital birth and tell the attending Ped that you want to "delay" all newborn vaxes? Our Ped doesn't service the hospital where I'll be delivering. He referred me to someone he used to work with, but if that Dr isn't available and someone else from his practice comes, I'm worried that they'll make a stink about me wanting to delay/skip vaxes. I know that no one can make you do anything, but I'd just like to be prepared for what might get thrown my way. DD has her 24 month appt in October and I'll talk with our Ped about this then, but wanted to know if anyone in this thread can provide some info. Also, what about the PKU test... is that something that can be skipped?

And yes, I have personally (IRL, not online) seen three of my friend's 12-15 mo. sons go from happy, talking, social babies to non-verbal, no eye contact, eventually diagnosed autistic children within 24 hours after receiving the MMR....and yes, that scares the crap out of me.

That is so sad and terrifying. :(

[ThreeYell]

I vaxed on schedule for the same reasons that littlebear explained, especially this:
IMO, there is also no strong scientific evidence showing causal links or even strong associations between vaxes and a variety of the purported illnesses that vaxes 'cause' while there is strong evidence in favor of the benefits of vaccination.

I'm an extended nurser, strong supporter of natural birth and MDC lurker, so I do have my crunchy card in some areas. ;) But for vaccines, I just don't see any good reason not to. Like littlebear, the science that I trust supports vaccines.

[NYN]

Question~ Is it possible to have a hospital birth and tell the attending Ped that you want to "delay" all newborn vaxes? Our Ped doesn't service the hospital where I'll be delivering. He referred me to someone he used to work with, but if that Dr isn't available and someone else from his practice comes, I'm worried that they'll make a stink about me wanting to delay/skip vaxes. I know that no one can make you do anything, but I'd just like to be prepared for what might get thrown my way. DD has her 24 month appt in October and I'll talk with our Ped about this then, but wanted to know if anyone in this thread can provide some info. Also, what about the PKU test... is that something that can be skipped?
i don't think this differs from state to state but i'm not sure. i have heard of people who take written documents (like contracts) stating that they know the risks and are refusing all hospital vaxxes but i didn't take anything w/ me and i didn't have a problem. i just told all the L&D nurses (admittedly several times) that i didn't want DD to have her Hep B or Vitamin K shots. at some point someone made me sign a paper which stated that i was refusing all recommended vaccinations. i could have refused having her bathed as well which i didn't know at the time. i have no clue about the PKU tests.

[littlebear]

Is it possible to have a hospital birth and tell the attending Ped that you want to "delay" all newborn vaxes?
I don't think it should be a big deal. My ped didn't service the hospital where I delivered, and she prefers to do all of the vaxes within her practice. I just let the hospital know that I did not want any vaxes done while my infant was in the hospital and that my ped would be dealing with the issue. We didn't have the heel stick (PKU) at the hospital either because the state where I live does more newborn screening than the state where I gave birth so I just waited to have my ped do the heel stick at our first visit. There is an option of doing a urine test for PKU for infants over 6 weeks, but I'm not sure if it screens for other conditions as well. Also most states have have laws that require a PKU test for newborns within a few days after birth.

[kmack]

from the first link that littlebear posted:

However, infants lack the memory cells trained to defend against specific diseases. Because of this, they are particularly susceptible to diseases such as diphtheria, whooping cough, polio, tetanus, hepatitis B, and Hib. This is an important reason why the recommended childhood vaccination schedule begins so early – to prevent the diseases that children are susceptible to at such a young age.

again, i do not understand why my newborn would be particulary susceptible to hepatitis B, a disease spread by sexual contact or IV drug use. or is there another way she could catch it?

catgirl i seem to remember them asking me about five times if i wanted to get the hep b vax in the hospital. i hadn't researched anything prior to that so i just did it, but it seemed to me that they would have been fine with it if i had said no. and it wasn't my ped who did it, but one from the same practice.

[Toonces]

Thank you NYN and littlebear (and kmack - cross post:))!

I didn't know about the no bath option with my DD either. This time I'm putting it in my birth plan. I'll put the vax info in there, too.

[VoiceOfReason]

NYN,
Oh, I just saw your post about refusing Vit K. Please...anyone else reading this post...Lack of Vit K has caused MANY bleeding problems in natural-birth situations. A recent case in PA (unfortunately I was peripherally involved with this) where vit K was not given during a home birth resulted in a intracranial hemorrhage and an investigation that removed "5" other children temporarily from the home to rule-out shaken-baby syndrome. The family was "cleared", but the child was still deceased. Please, there is no crontroversy here... Allow the hospital/nurse midwife to administer vit K. Vit K is NOT related to any of the other vaccine-related problems mentioned in this, or any other thread/website!

[mommydearest]

from the first link that littlebear posted:



again, i do not understand why my newborn would be particulary susceptible to hepatitis B, a disease spread by sexual contact or IV drug use. or is there another way she could catch it?


It could also be caught through blood. Hepatitis can be dormant on a table for up to 10 years. It is very difficult to kill. Also, there could be kids at your daycare/preschool down the road that have it. They do not legally have to tell you that a kid in the school has it. So, you'd have no idea if your kid was at risk.

I had a student get Hepatitis A this past year and almost die. So, vaxing kids is really important to me. The reason why very few people die from these diseases is that most are vaccinated. Measles and rubella were almost wiped out in this country and now its back on the rise because people didn't vax their kids. You never know what the other children in your kid's school ( or church/gym/little league, etc) have been exposed to from parents that travel abroad, even if their kids don't, and then the kid exposes your kid to it.

Also, just so you know, in my 8th grade classes , I have had two students last school year have babies. So don't think that middle school kids don't have sex. Both were "good kids" who got good grades and came from good families. But that didn't keep it from happening. I'm sure the last thing on the girls' minds were STDs.

[lml41981]

I didn't know about the no bath option with my DD either.
Yeah, I put in my birth plan that she wasn't to be bathed until I was asleep. Until I allowed her to be bathed, the nurses wore latex gloves to touch her. One nurse tried to make me feel bad about it. She made a huge production over getting the gloves and putting them on and said, "I have to wear these because she hasn't had a bath," as if DD were disease-laden. :rolleyes:

Next time, however, we think we will spring for the big suite and bathe future-DC ourselves. I'd rather future-DC not sit alone under a warming lamp when s/he can get skin-to-skin with me.

[alisong]

Hep B - it's definitely possible to catch it via non-sexual/IV drug use routes. There have been cases of families catching it from children adopted from Asia, and, in developing countries, the most common ways it's spread between children are activities like scratching another kid's back, sharing a towel, and sharing a toothbrush. That's why I say I'd have my DS get it if he was in daycare - I can't imagine even the most scrupulously clean daycare could prevent similar contact between children. Hep B is actually a very infectious virus, as blood-borne viruses go (far more infectious than, say, HIV).

Catgirl - Why would you not want the PKU test performed? Is it just that you don't want a heel stick? Also, we refused all vaccinations at birth, and it was not a problem at all. We were asked once, and that was it.

[Kanga]

Vit K shot - I still have lots more research to do on this. From what I've read so far, we will not be getting it unless it is a tramatic birth (forceps, vacuum, etc) but I will admit I may change my mind after researching it fully. The purpose of the shot is to prevent excess bleeding, but if my dc is a boy he will not be circ'd so if the birth is not tramatic I don't see how my dc could have bleeding problems. Vitamin K is not easily passed through the placenta, but is easily passed through breastmilk so if you are breastfeeding, you can eat foods rich in vit k (dark green leafy veggies) or alfalfa tablets. Also, by prematurely cutting the cord it deprives a newborn of 25% to 40% of the physiological blood volume, and thus 25% to 40% of the physiological clotting factors that nature intended to be present in the newborn's blood. I'd much rather go this route than welcome my dc into the world with a shot. There have also been suspicions about it linked to jaundice and childhood cancer. cancer (http://www.babyreference.com/VitaminKinjectORnot.htm) I don't understand how all babies can be 'deficient' and there is probably a reason nature intended it to be that way.

We are also refusing the eye goop and I need to look into the PKU, although I don't think I will have any objections because it's a heel prick.

About the only reason that anyone can even consider to "not immunize" their child is because the vaccines exist and have been used.


This isn't true. Most people who do not vaccinate and do their research rather than just follow whatever the trend happens to be DO NOT refuse vax based on 'herd immunity' for all the reasons HGMorgan said and then some. Everybody on planet earth can stop vaccinating, and I still will not be afraid of the diseases. Put her in a room full of children with polio, and I'm still not afraid. I just don't see anything to be afraid of it when it comes to the diseases

To add to HGMorgan's list

Polio - Vast majority (90-95/99%, depending on who you ask) do not show symptoms. At all. 1/1000 infected cases are paralytic. In order to know you are infected, you would have to have symptoms, so 1/1000 is of that 1-10% who do show symptoms

Hep A - Very benign if developed in childhood. About 30% of americans are immune and never knew they ever had it.

Tetanus - I don't believe the vax works. When checking titers, tetanus can not be found. Checking titers checks the level of antibodies in the system, so i don't understand how one can be immune without any antibodies. It's also not a disease of the young and healthy, it's a disease of people with poor circulation. Should my child somehow be able to get it, there is immuneglobulin (which is a tetanus anti toxin) you can get instead.

Also, NOBODY knows how to treat adverse reactions, but they do know how to treat the diseases. The CDC also states you are more likely to get an adverse reaction that a complication from any one disease.

Is it possible to have a hospital birth and tell the attending Ped that you want to "delay" all newborn vaxes?

Look up your state's laws...for some you must give advanced notice that you do not want it, so I assume that means if you say nothing they assume you want it. I think your best bet would be to say we would prefer our own ped do all routine medical treatments, and whether you get them later from your ped or not is your business. They may hassle you a little bit, but generally I haven't heard it happen a whole lot.

Those who are objecting the bath, what reasons do you have? Is it just because you'd rather do it yourself, and want to wait a little while so you have time to bond?

The reason why very few people die from these diseases is that most are vaccinated.

And that there's better sanitation, refiegeration, diet, diagnoses, and treatment. I just don't buy the whole "vax make everything better" statement. Sure they keep it down for awhile, but at what cost?

Also, just so you know, in my 8th grade classes , I have had two students last school year have babies. So don't think that middle school kids don't have sex. Both were "good kids" who got good grades and came from good families. But that didn't keep it from happening. I'm sure the last thing on the girls' minds were STDs.

I know all too well how young kids are sexually active. Hep B is only one of who knows how many STD's, and it will be her decision if she'd like the vax. I don't feel it's a decision I should make for her. Similar to piercing her ears, if she wants it done, fine, but I'm not about to make the decision for her.

IMO, there is also no strong scientific evidence showing causal links or even strong associations between vaxes and a variety of the purported illnesses that vaxes 'cause' while there is strong evidence in favor of the benefits of vaccination.

I don't trust the CDC or the FDA. Both have major financial ties to Big Pharma. 2 of the top guys at the FDA who decide if the drugs are safe are reps for Big Pharma. I posted a link earlier on that. The CDC twists facts and you have to read between the lines on a lot of stuff.

[Toonces]

She made a huge production over getting the gloves and putting them on and said, "I have to wear these because she hasn't had a bath," as if DD were disease-laden. :rolleyes:

:eek: Our reason behind the delayed bath is they've been swimming around in amniotic fluid for 10 months. It doesn't hurt them to have it on them a little longer. Plus the vernix helps to condition their skin. After DD was born I saw her for maybe 5-10 minutes then they take her away to bathe her. I kept asking for her and didn't get her back for 2.5 hours. I was really PO'd esp since I wanted to start BFing right away.

Catgirl - Why would you not want the PKU test performed? Is it just that you don't want a heel stick? Also, we refused all vaccinations at birth, and it was not a problem at all. We were asked once, and that was it.

Yep, and that I don't think it's a very common illness. I believe 1 in 10,000 children are DX'd with PKU. I will talk with my Ped in October though and if he feels strongly about it, then we will do it. He's more of a holistic "crunchy" doctor so I do trust his opinion. My poor little DD was poked so many times after I had her and I'm still mad at myself for not being more educated. We had a different Ped with her, until she was 3 months old and her original Ped kept insisting that allergens couldn't pass through breastmilk. :rolleyes:

Also, just so you know, in my 8th grade classes , I have had two students last school year have babies.

:eek:

We are also refusing the eye goop

Kanga ~ I've been thinking about this also and want to research it. Do you know what it's even for?? I mentioned it to my mom and she said that it prevents infection that can cause blindness, BUT 99.9% of the time I don't listen to my mom b/c she's usually misinformed and is very "old school".

[Marisa]

catgirl -- in my experience the PKU screening actually also screens for a whole variety of conditions, one of which is galactosemia. My dentist's three boys all have it and of course he's a great advocate for the test -- this is the condition where baby is truly lactose intolerant and needs to be given the predigested formula.

You may be able to get them to administer right there so you can nurse her right away - I don't know if it's done right after birth; I think it's 24 hours after they're born.

The eye goop is for bacteria in general, most specifically gonorrhea, which the baby would be exposed to from the mother. It's up to you whether you feel the risk outweighs the prophylactic; I personally feel it's a bit of a holdover from another time.

[Toonces]

Thanks, Marisa! That's good to know about the PKU and if I can BF immediately after, that would make me feel a lot better that I'd be able to calm him down.

[Kanga]

The antibiotic eye ointment started after a war (vietnam i believe) when soldiers brought home something 'extra' (STD's) for their wives and babies were affected after passing through the birth canal. So if you don't have an STD, your baby can not be infected.

Here is a link (http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/polio.htm#randall) on why I don't trust the gov't. It's about how the criteria for polio changed in 1955, the same year the Salk vaccine was introduced, and also about the contamination of teh SV40 vaccine.

[kmack]

back to the mmr being a live virus...does this mean there is a risk of passing it to a pregnant mom, or a newborn baby that is in the house when a child is vaccinated? or does it not work like CP?

[NYN]

vitamin k: i did not opt for vitamin k based on several factors which could be summed up like this:

1. i do not believe in injecting anything into the body of a baby who is less than 24 hours old unless it is medically necessary.
2. the risk of my healthy newborn (who was not going to undergo any surgical procedure at any point soon) having vitamin k deficiency bleeding was way, way, way low. i don't have exact numbers now but i did research it at the time and i felt that the risk was minimal.
3. a study in the early 90s linked kids who had been given vitamin k shots at birth with higher incidences of childhood lukemia. having had a friend die of a childhood cancer, i felt that i didn't want to take that risk.

had my birth been different i would have reconsidered it but i didn't feel that it was necessary at the time. i totally understand that fear that comes w/ seeing a baby die and feeling the need to make blanket recommendations for the rest of the population. my brother died within 48 hours of his DTP vax (not given anymore) so i lean in the opposite direction as you. i also feel that for the majority of the population, vitamin K shots are necessary b/c i can't imagine that everyone is researching this to a large degree.

though i feel confident in my decision i agree that i would not recommend it for everyone.

hep b: i gave DD the hep b vax b/c i thought she was starting daycare at the time. had i known she wouldn't start daycare until 13 months i would have held off longer but being in a daycare setting i felt that it was necessary. also i have an aunt who has hep b...she got it through maternal contact as she is from an eastern european country where most people have it. her son does not have it but being that my daughter is always in that house i felt that there was enough of a risk to give her the vax.

MMR: kmack, i believe that kanga said (maybe in the previous thread?) that b/c it is a live virus that it has a "shedding" period and it could potentially be "caught" by someone who is unvaccinated.

[Sevilla]

PKU: In my state it tests for about 20 different diseases and I believe it's a very important screening.

[Delta]

There is only one vax given at birth - the Hep B. We won't be doing it then for reasons stated here.

While I'm not a fan of all the manhandling of babies that goes on in hospitals the first 24 hours of their birth (we won't be doing the eye goop, vitamin K, hep B, etc.), I do think the heel prick (aka PKU) is a very important screening tool. It is a heel prick, but there is nothing being put into the baby. What it does do is screen for many different diseases (depending on the state) that while rare, can be better rectified the younger the child. I truly don't see how it is detrimental to the baby in any way, except for the pain of the prick. To me, that is a small price to pay for the knowledge it can give you.

I have a good friend whose son has a disease that can be detected via newborn screening. His was not picked up on until he was about 15-18 months and he became symptomatic. Kids with this disease have a much better chance at a more normal life the younger it is caught. My friend (who is also a pretty non-intervention mom) is a big proponent of the screening. NY state just passed a bill that will make screening for this disease (and many others) standard. This is a good thing. It's always up to the parents of course, but this is one intervention I can get behind.

[mel7dog]

Ok just jumping in here although I have read most of the thread. DS is 4 months and we have vaxed on schedule so far, though now I am trying to learn about everything so I am now just blindly vaxing. That being said, we are going on vacation out of the country in Jan (DS will be 9 month) and are also military so we'll most likely live out of the country and travel a great deal in the next 3-4 years. DH is saying this is why it is important for us to vax, is this true, I'm a bit confused :confused:

[VoiceOfReason]

A little background on me... Have a 2.5 y/o dd and a new baby due soon. I have been looking up info to stay "ahead of the curve". It sounds like a lot of you have had a very different relationship with the hospital/peds than we did. We were allowed to basically "opt-out" of anything we wanted. We were allowed to bathe dd instead of the nurses several hours after birth, and she was allowed to nurse at least 2 times within the 1st hour.
Baby #2 is coming, and we expect the same arrangement, even though this is a different hospital/OB/peds. Just lay it all out in your "birthing plan" and correct issues as they come up. Communicate with the nursing staff/doctors and don't be afraid to ask them to explain what and why they do what they do- before they do it! (ask nicely...it's amazing how that comes back to you!)
My even joining this thread is from my dissapproval of the perpetuation of misinformation on the "internet". As is evidenced by the number of "hits" this thread gets, a lot of educated (and uneducated) people are obviously eager to find out all they can before making decisions.
Issues:
No vaccine is only tested on 100 children and then approved. That may have been a quote from a book- but a book is a distillation of material that is then paraphrased. Go look at the studies as they originally were published.
The original study that linked MMR to Autism was reviewed by the author of the study after all the data was collected, and he published a corrected/updated review of his study stating that there was no evidence that there was a link between the two.
"Conspiracy Theory" that the FDA and CDC studies are not to be trusted because of the link of Gov't directors and big pharmacy companies. Hmmm, I have participated in numerous different studies. The amount of money it takes to implement a "placebo-controlled, double blind, randomized" study (and, actually, there are no other types of studies that collect unbiased results with any "power"- this is a biostatistical number to rate how the results of a study can claim to have found the results they do, without it being due to chance) is incredible. Probably millions of dollars in this economy. There just aren't any individuals with that kind of money willing to spend it on studies. So, the only way serious studies get done is with the Gov't having its hand in there somewhere. That is just fact. Now, you can decide if you distrust scientists enough to believe that they would falsify studies. Remember... there have been a LOT of studies in a number of different countries that have come to the same conclusion- there is no proven link between childhood immunizations and Autism. SO you are not just afriad that our Gov't is making scientists lie about their work, but so is every other Gov't making every scientist in every country lie about their work. I just don't see that happening.

Please try not to misinterpret my comment on "the reason anyone can even not immunize their child is because the vaccines exist" What I meant is that the diseases are so rare, that of course it is easy for you to say you don't feel the risk is great enough to warrant a vaccine. When thousands of children were dying each year (especially in low-income areas with poorer access to medical care) with Hib meningitis, the vaccine was considered a miracle. It kinda has been a miracle.

Anyway, that is my (long-winded) reason for joining this thread. Be careful what you read. If you see that someone read in a book that vaccines are incorporated into your child's schedule after being injected in only 100 kids- Don't tell 15 others without checking the facts!

[Rico'sAlice]

You may be able to get them to administer right there so you can nurse her right away - I don't know if it's done right after birth; I think it's 24 hours after they're born.


Thanks, Marisa! That's good to know about the PKU and if I can BF immediately after, that would make me feel a lot better that I'd be able to calm him down.




Although most hospitals do have you do the PKU test in the first couple days, before you leave the hospital- it is pretty much worthless at that point. You need to wait until your milk comes in and the child has BFed. (Although colostrum is a miracle food of utmost importance to the babies health it doesn't count for this situation) Basically they can't really tell if the child is digesting XYZ wrong until after the digestive system gets a go. And the screening does test for a number of other metabolic disorders, not just PKU.

http://www.webmd.com/hw/raising_a_family/hw41965.asp
The baby should be drinking breast milk or formula for at least 24 hours before the blood sample is taken. PKU test results are more likely to be accurate if the blood sample is taken after the baby has been on a milk diet for at least 48 hours.



FWIW, I'm *planning* U/C home birth, and will have no HepB, no antibiotic eye goop, no Vit K. [With all three I have decided the risks are greater from getting them administered than not. If I knew that I had an STD I might re-research the eye goop.] However, I still plan to have the midwife come over about a week after the birth and do the PKU stuff. I think it is very unlikely that anything will come of it, but to me the side effects (ie small, temporary pain only) seem very low compared to the potential risks. And if you find the right caregiver or are assertive enough, you can nurse DURING the blood draw.

[Kanga]

MMR: kmack, i believe that kanga said (maybe in the previous thread?) that b/c it is a live virus that it has a "shedding" period and it could potentially be "caught" by someone who is unvaccinated.


I don't think it's too common (because the viruses are weakened) if there aren't any symptoms, but it is possible. The CDC doesn't flat out say it, but they do admit teh former version of the polio vaccine (OPV) which was a live virus can give people polio - and has been proven so. They also admit flu mist (the nasal spray vaccine for influenza) can give you the flu (also a live virus) If you can get polio from a live vaccination of polio, and can get the flu from that live vaccine, it only makes sense that you can get MMR or CP from those vaxes.

DH is saying this is why [traveling] it is important for us to vax, is this true, I'm a bit confused

FTR - MMR and CP are normal childhood diseases and nothing to be feared. People only started fearing them after vaxes were developed - like with HPV. WC (whooping cough/pertussis) can be a little more serious but if watched to make sure complications don't develop, keeping the child well rested with plenty of vit C to boost the immune system and is not in a baby under 6mo (the