Vaccine Information

[Kanga]

In order to have the pro vax thread remain debate free, the mods have decided that this should be the vax debate thread. Because of that, I have deleted all the info that was previously here and will be transferring it to a different thread. So feel free to debate vax related issues here.

[Kanga]

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[Kanga]

*saving

[Kanga]

and another one

[Kanga]

I promise these will all get used up

[Kanga]

one more just to be safe. In the meantime if you have any info/links you'd like added, just post it here, and I'll add it when I get a chance.

[Toonces]

Thank you for starting this thread, Kanga! Here's a link re Thimerosal:

The great thimerosal cover-up: Mercury, vaccines, autism and your child's health
(http://www.newstarget.com/011764.html) - Sept. 2005

I'm also a big Don Imus fan:

Don Imus - MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036713/) - he talks about Thimerosal problems on a regular basis. I think he has 1 or 2 younger kids who are vax free.

So far we're delaying and possibly skipping entirely the MMR. We are skipping the chicken pox vax - our Ped doesn't even believe in it. He told us that it's our continued exposure to the chick pox disease that keeps the rate of shingles down and doesn't believe that enough research has been done on this vax yet. We also skip the flu vax. Our Ped has never had the flu in 34 years of being a doc. I've had it twice, DH and DD haven't had it.

I have an appt to talk w/ our Ped in Oct. to discuss skipping or delaying various newborn vaxes for our DS (EDD Nov.). I need to do some more research.

I always ask for preservative free vaxes for the ones DD has gotten.

[CityGirl]

Thank you for this thread! I'm halfway through What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Vaccinations and am deeply interested in what other parents have decided to do.

[tgal]

Thanks for this thread. I am hoping to get some clarification here on a couple of things from the book What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Vaccinations . Our doctor told us that thimerosal has since been removed from all vaccinations. Is this true? Another question I posted on another vax thread was whether or not anyone could find a doctor that would split up the MMR. Our doctor won't and I am wondering how to go about finding someone that will. Lastly, I know ethically you can skip vax for school enrollment, however, if you just want to expose your dc to chicken pox, how would one go about finding someone with chicken pox to expose your child (I know this sounds crazy, but I've heard it referred to a chicken pox party), especially if most kids are vaccinated now.

[dionysia]

There is a chart of thimerisol/mercury content in vaccines here:
http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm

Be sure to ask your ped what specific brand/vaccine they use.

In MA, the state provides the vaccines to peds and none of the vaccines provided contain any thimerisol.

Di

[littlebear]

From the CDC (which I consider to be a sound source of information although I realize that others may not):
Our doctor told us that thimerosal has since been removed from all vaccinations. Is this true?

Today, with the exception of some Influenza (flu) vaccines, none of the vaccines used in the U.S. to protect preschool children against 12 infectious diseases contain thimerosal as a preservative.


Here's the website.
http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/concerns/thimerosal/default.htm

Other info from the CDC including their vax schedules
http://www.cdc.gov/node.do/id/0900f3ec8000e2f3

[Rico'sAlice]

how would one go about finding someone with chicken pox to expose your child (I know this sounds crazy, but I've heard it referred to a chicken pox party), especially if most kids are vaccinated now.


There is a live journal thing for this purpose.http://community.livejournal.com/pox_parties/
If you go to mothering.com and go to the "tribe" for your area you'll probably be able to find out if/when they are happening. Maybe ask local LLL members. There are also yahoo groups and some other mailing lists set up for this purpose. Are there any Waldorf/Steiner schools near you? Anthroposophy strongly discourages vaxs and they would probably be able to help you out.

Also, if you can't find anyone with chix pox, you can also get it from someone with shingles. (usually an elderly person.) It is the same varicella virus, and will show up as regular children's chickenpox in your kid.

http://www.mothering.com/articles/growing_child/child_health/chickenpox_party.html

[Toonces]

I heard that as of 1/1/05 (I think that was the date) they were no longer producing vaxes with thimerosal, but that they still had to use up their inventory so I'm not 100% convinced those have all been used up. My mom heard on the Imus Morning Show that vaxes that are mass produced and sent overseas still have thimerosal in them b/c they "have" to use it to preserve all those vials. I don't know what to believe... I tend to be skeptical.

tgal ~ You can check out the MDC "Finding Your Tribe" forum and post a question re Peds who break up the MMR in your area. I found our current Ped in that forum and LOVE him.

I mentioned that I always ask for preservative free vaxes and last time we were at the Ped I called first to verify, then asked the nurse, and then asked our Ped (just to be sure :) ). His reply was, "Yep, it's preservative free. Oh, except for the mercury." ;) He special orders his vaxes and has already told me they're preservative free, but you can never be too safe IMO.

[NYN]

here is the extended version of the same statement that was previously posted. the source is the CDC:

Today, with the exception of some influenza vaccine, none of the vaccines used to protect preschool children against 12 infectious diseases contain thimerosal as a preservative. (Those with a concentration of less than 0.0002% contain what is considered “trace,” or insignificant, amounts.) Certain Influenza (flu) vaccines and tetanus-diphtheria vaccines (Td) given to children age 7 and older contain thimerosal as a preservative. For more information on thimerosal content in some currently manufactured U.S. licensed vaccines, go to http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm
if you click on the FDA link there are two tables which list the vaccinations that still contain thimerosal.

while it's good that so much attention has been given to thimerosal, it is important to remember all the other ingredients that are in a lot of vaccines that can be just as dangerous.

before we vaccinated my daughter we asked the pediatrician for the inserts for all the vaccinations that she recommended. we read each insert cover to cover, decided what we didn't like, etc. and started eliminating from there.

[Kanga]

CP or other parties - let everyone you know what disease you're looking for. There are also groups on yahoo and I think msn (msn does have groups, right?) for this as well. The host usually has lolli pops and drinks for everyone to share to hopefully increase the chances of spreading it.

If you decide to get any vaccine - read the insert cover to cover, and also read the vial to make sure it is what it's supposed to be. Mistakes are not very common, but not unheard of either.

[HGMorgann]

Quickie on Thimersol - yes most are "Thimersol-free" but still have trace amounts of thimersol in it. Now, this is where I don't have a resource on hand, but in testing of thimersol-free vaccines, some doses had much more thimersol than what they expected to find, I will look for this resource and post exact numbers if possible.

We are very fortunate to have a super ped. who takes lots of time to talk with us on each issue and provide us with new studies and reports. We have a WBV and I will ask him for more citations.

[kmack]

thanks for starting this thread. i wish i had done a lot more research of vaccines before i even selected a ped. DD is 13 mos and has gotten all of the 'required' vaccines so far. one time she got 4 at once but since then i have asked that she not receive more than 2 at a time, and then i have asked about them being thimerasol free. i have never asked for the insert, the ped. has just given me the vaccine info sheet for each shot (a minute before she administers the shot, so there's barely enough time to read it).

anyway, i would like to hear more about those who have chosen not to get a certain vaccine and why. chicken pox for one...assuming there is no thimerasol in it, what is in it that makes you not want it? i have 'What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Children's Vax' and admit i have not read much of it. but in the end where she gives her recommendations, she says she does not recommend it in her one-year-old patients but i think i missed her explanation as to why.

i know there is a lot of controversy surrounding the MMR vax, specifically a link to autism (even though they don't use thimerasol anymore?). it seems it is hard to find a dr. who will administer them separately, has anyone done this?

ETA: DD developed three red bumps at the site where one of her shots was administered, which then turned into a bruise (that is still there 3 weeks later), along with a mild cough and runny nose. should i have called the ped to let them know this?

[lml41981]

Before DD came along, I thought it was horrible that people would have pox parties just to expose their kids to an illness and intentionally get them sick.

Now that I don't want DD to have the CP vax, I am eating my words. How early is too early for her to go to a pox party?

[alienhost]

Very informative thread. Question though, it was my understanding that the MMR never contained thimerisol as it did not need a preservative. So wouldn't the speculation of the "link to autism" be some other factor other than thimerisol?

I guess I'm confused or misinformed. I read it somewhere and I think my ped confirmed it.

[kmack]

as it is i'm surprised by how many people here have said that their one-year-olds were vaccinated against MMR. i thought that even the current CDC recommendation was to hold off on it until 15-18 months. again, don't quote me on that -- i read this stuff a very long time ago but i was surprised to read that.

this was from the chicken pox thread, but i was curious about this too so i had looked it up not too long ago. the CDC recommends getting it between 12 and 18 mos

CDC Recommended Immunization Schedule 2006 (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/pdf/wk/mm5451-Immunization.pdf)

i still don't understand why they suggest getting Hep B at birth, since it is a disease transmitted through sexual contact and IV drug use??

[Marisa]

kmack -- My mother (who works in maternal care at a NJ hospital) explained it as a public health move, not necessarily a 'fear for baby's safety' move. They want everyone to have the Hep B shots, and they have to be done in a certain specific time frame -- it's shot 1, then shot 2 is two weeks later (or one week? I don't remember), then shot 3 is 6 months later. If it's not done specifically at those times, the vaccine loses its efficacy and you'd need to start all over.

Basically, they know that there are many parents who start to slack on the WBV after a certain point, so they want to be sure to get the shots in while most parents are still keeping up with them.

If you feel confident that you will be vigilant about your child's checkups, and that you have the organizational skills to schedule a WBV for your older toddler or preschooler, then a followup in a week for the next shot, then another in 6 months, then there's absolutely no reason why it has to be given to a newborn.

We opted out of it at the hospital -- my son didn't receive any vaccinations until his 2-month visit.

[NYN]

i was told (by a health care professional) that the reason why they want kids to get the Hep B vax in the hospital is b/c doing it this early means that the disease will be erradicated in ~60 years. my pediatrician told me what Marisa posted about the lack of follow-up and WBV. i don't know which is true or if either are true at all...

my pediatrician doesn't give the MMR as three separate shots but i know people who's doctors do this. i read somewhere (i think on these boards actually?) that it is more expensive for doctor's to buy it this way which is why a lot won't do it. i haven't really looked into finding a pediatrician who separates them since we don't have plans to do the vaccination as of now so i can't tell you if it is easy or hard but if you join a mom's group or ask in your local LLL group i'm sure someone there knows a local doctor who separates the three shots.

[ginadc]

I'll freely admit that I am very strongly pro-vax. (May come from having a father who had polio--got it the last year before the vaccine.)

I like the Institute for Vaccine Safety (http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/) at Johns Hopkins. They have great information; their disease-specific pages have updated links to recent studies regarding vaccines for that disease, and they also have a good thimerosal table. I also like the Immunization Action Coalition (http://www.immunize.org/).

[ginadc]

This is what the CDC says about splitting MMR:

Splitting the MMR vaccine into three separate doses given at three different times would cause more discomfort from additional injections and would leave children exposed to potentially serious diseases. For instance, if rubella vaccine were delayed, 4 million children would be susceptible to rubella for an additional 6 to 12 months. This would potentially allow otherwise preventable cases of congenital rubella syndrome (CRS) to occur through transmission of rubella from infected children to pregnant women. Ironically, infection of pregnant woman with "wild" rubella virus is one of the few known causes of autism. Thus, by preventing rubella infection of pregnant women, MMR vaccine also prevents autism.

[Kanga]

lml - the pox vaccine is recommended for 12-18 mo olds, and since you can catch pox from the vaccine, I would assume it would be ok to introduce her to natural pox at that age as well. IMO it's probably better to wait until 3-4 years of age, although I wouldn't fret if you accidentally introduce her to it before then. They won't have to miss any school, and will be old enough to understand when you tell them not to itch. (itching can cause infections and scars). Also IIRC, you are still bfing so if you're immune to cp, and you expose her to it while natalie is still bfing or with 4-6 weeks after being weaned(that's how long your immunity will last in her system) she likely won't catch it.

Hep B - we won't be getting this one either, unless dd decides for herself she wants it. Immunity is said to only last for 5 years anyways, so vaxxing newborns makes 0 sense to me. I hope that I will be able to steer her away from drugs and teach her safe sex. Hep B isn't very common anyways and suspect it will be even less common by the time she is a teen and teh majority of infections happen with iv drug users and prostitutes.

MMR - Dr.'s must order a certain quantity of the seperate M, M, and R vaxes and since there isn't much of a demand, only certain, usually large offices are able to use them all up. You can go to a different office for the seperate ones if you'd like. The free ones the health department gives out is the MMR, not the seperate ones.

DD developed three red bumps at the site where one of her shots was administered, which then turned into a bruise (that is still there 3 weeks later), along with a mild cough and runny nose. should i have called the ped to let them know this?

Dd got a knot under skin at the injection site after her 4 mo vaxes which later turned into a bruise. The entire thing from beginning of the knot until the bruise went away was about 6 weeks. I mentioned it at her 6mo appt, and the dr. didn't seem in the least concerned. The cough and runny nose may or may not be related to the vaxes and it's rare the dr.'s will connect adverse reactions to vaccines anyways. It could be that she was a little more susceptible to other illnesses going around from her immune system fighting off the shots and she caught a mild cold or something.

[lml41981]

lml - the pox vaccine is recommended for 12-18 mo olds, and since you can catch pox from the vaccine, I would assume it would be ok to introduce her to natural pox at that age as well. IMO it's probably better to wait until 3-4 years of age, although I wouldn't fret if you accidentally introduce her to it before then. They won't have to miss any school, and will be old enough to understand when you tell them not to itch. (itching can cause infections and scars). Also IIRC, you are still bfing so if you're immune to cp, and you expose her to it while natalie is still bfing or with 4-6 weeks after being weaned(that's how long your immunity will last in her system) she likely won't catch it.
<snip>
Dd got a knot under skin at the injection site after her 4 mo vaxes which later turned into a bruise. The entire thing from beginning of the knot until the bruise went away was about 6 weeks. I mentioned it at her 6mo appt, and the dr. didn't seem in the least concerned. The cough and runny nose may or may not be related to the vaxes and it's rare the dr.'s will connect adverse reactions to vaccines anyways. It could be that she was a little more susceptible to other illnesses going around from her immune system fighting off the shots and she caught a mild cold or something.
Yup. Still BFing. The reason I want to expose her to it sooner than 3-4 years is that the doctor wants to vax her at 12 months. This is her "pet vax," so I am afraid she'll give me a hard time about it. She's pretty respectful of other things, though, so I might be fearing nothing. We'll see.

DD developed a knot under her skin after a vax, too. I seem to recall it being after the 4 month vax, but I really don't remember if it was the 4 month or the 6 month. I asked the doctor about it and she wasn't concerned. She said it was probably the DTaP. Now I am a little fearful of giving other vaccines. I admit this is the subject I did no research on before giving birth. :( The knot still has not gone away.

[dana b]

Also IIRC, you are still bfing so if you're immune to cp, and you expose her to it while natalie is still bfing or with 4-6 weeks after being weaned(that's how long your immunity will last in her system) she likely won't catch it.

yep, dd caught it at 18 mos (exactly 2 mos after weaning) - she came down with all kinds of crazy stuff right after i weaned. i was surprised at how easily she caught it -- she hadn't been around any other kids or anyone who we knew who had it, the only thing i could think of was a shopping trip to target. she also came down w/ pneumonia about a month later, which was possibly due to the cp, i forgot to ask our ped if he thought so. both were so super mild and i'm still thankful that she caught cp naturally. one issue though -- since she caught it so young and had such a mild case, we'll still need to have her titers tested later.

splitting mmr i can try to figure out where i saw it, but i believe there was a pharmacy that people were able to call and order it separately for their dr to administer. also, i've heard of people being able to talk their ped's into ordering the separate doses and offering to pay for whatever single doses don't end up being used, it doesn't end up being *that* expensive. i haven't asked our ped about splitting it yet, but i've read on other boards that he does. our ped is pro-vaxing, but uses a different schedule and i think the majority of his practice probably doesn't vax at all.

[HGMorgann]

Seeing that immunity for the CP vax wears off and statistically it is unlikely that many adults would make sure that they are immune and stay up to date on vaccinations, I (and my ped) believe that basically we will see an epidemic of adult chicken pox which is has more complications than CP in a child. A healthy child rarely has complications from CP.

[alisong]

Hep B - I think part of the rationale for giving hep B at birth/very early is that the younger a person is when they are exposed the greater chance they have of becoming a carrier, and of subsequently developing liver cancer. That said, we haven't given hep B yet because DS isn't in daycare (about the only possible source of infection given that I'm vaccinated).

CP - Can someone explain to me why the CP vaccine will cause an increase in singles? Is it just because the vaccine isn't lifelong? Is there evidence that infection with CP later in life leads to an increase in shingles?

(I'll also admit to a mildly pro-vax stance, I'm an epidemiologist.)

[Toonces]

CP - Can someone explain to me why the CP vaccine will cause an increase in singles? Is it just because the vaccine isn't lifelong? Is there evidence that infection with CP later in life leads to an increase in shingles?

It's our Ped's theory that our continued exposure to the CP is what helps our immune systems keep the shingles dormant. I think right now 10-20% of adults who have had CP develop shingles. Our Ped thinks that # will rise significantly with the CP vax.

[dionysia]

I posted this link already:
http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm

It shows what vaccines have no thimerisol content and those which have trace amounts.

Di

[dionysia]

I am not sure if we are going to get the CP vax for our son. Oddly enough, it's me who needs to get the vax soon after he's born, since I've never had chicken pox! ;)

Di

[allyray231]

Anyone know anything about the new Hep A shot they are offering now? A few of the May mommies have had it at their 15 month WBV and I am just not sure why they are giving it now and what are the advantages/disadvantages

TIA!

[Kanga]

lml - maybe if you tell your ped you'd like her to have a chance at catching it naturally first, and then you'll follow up with the vax at x date if she hasn't caught it or proved to be immune before then she'll back off? Otherwise, this is what I tell my ped if she persists on her pet vax - pertussis - "It's not up for discussion." and repeat as necessary. You can also change peds to one that's more open to non/selec vaxxing if you're not attatched to this one already.

CP - Can someone explain to me why the CP vaccine will cause an increase in singles? Is it just because the vaccine isn't lifelong? Is there evidence that infection with CP later in life leads to an increase in shingles?

The vaccine has only been out for 15 years (91), and IIRC it wasn't until 95 when the vaccine became popular, so there's no way of doing any studies yet. The virus is also extremely weak in the vax in order to not cause the recipient to catch cp from the vaccine, so I just don't see how it could be lifelong. Also, CP is one of the diseases that always seems to have outbreaks in schools where the vast majority are vaxxed. According to 909shot.com, all vaccines have temporary immunity. It will be extremely difficult to ever prove that vaccines have lifelong immunity. They've only been around for about 65 years, and I don't believe any of the original ones are still used today, so really even less than 65 years that they have to go off of. Also, is it the vaccine that provides continuing immunity, or is it contact with infected persons that boosts the immune system that keeps the immunity strong? We'll never know for sure until once the diseases are eradicated and titers are done.

Hepatitis A - children who have it rarely show any symptoms, but it can be much more serious in adults, although it very rarely causes death. This is from 909shot.com
The CDC states that persons at high risk for hepatitis A are household and sexual contacts of infected persons; drug users; persons traveling to countries where hepatitis A is common; and persons living in regions where there are "consistently increased rates of hepatitis A." 1 The best tool for prevention of hepatitis A is to wash your hands with soap and water after using the bathroom, changing a diaper or preparing and eating food.

It's contracted by oral contact with infected feces and thus thrives in areas of poor sanitation such as the homeless and those who are living in very poor conditions.

So basically if you practice good hygeine and have clean water, and your sexual partner does not have hepA, then you can't catch it.
SmithKline Beecham states "At present the duration of protection afforded [by HAVRIX] has not been established. Therefore it is unknown if the protection provided to immunized children will last until adulthood."

Splitting the MMR vaccine into three separate doses given at three different times would cause more discomfort from additional injections and would leave children exposed to potentially serious diseases. For instance, if rubella vaccine were delayed, 4 million children would be susceptible to rubella for an additional 6 to 12 months. This would potentially allow otherwise preventable cases of congenital rubella syndrome (CRS) to occur through transmission of rubella from infected children to pregnant women. Ironically, infection of pregnant woman with "wild" rubella virus is one of the few known causes of autism. Thus, by preventing rubella infection of pregnant women, MMR vaccine also prevents autism.

This is the beef I have with the CDC and the gov't in general. They want me to put my chid more at risk by not splitting the MMR or skipping it all together in hopes she would develop natural immunity to it and never have to worry about it just so she can protect other people? I'm sorry, but my daughter comes first before some random pregnant woman. Also, birth defects and neurological problems in utero caused by rubella can be prevented by making sure you are taking in enough Vitamin A. Rubella causes a vit A deficiency which then in turn can cause problems for fetuses, but if you are getting adequate vit A, then rubella can not harm the fetus. Rubella is also only a risk if the pregnant woman is in her first tri.

[dana b]

what about rotovirus? isn't there a new one that's going back on the schedule?

[Kanga]

Oddly enough, it's me who needs to get the vax soon after he's born, since I've never had chicken pox!


I can't remember if it was this thread or the other one that I posted this, but anyway, since CP is a live vaccine it sheds and therefore those who are not immune (such as your baby) can catch it so it's best to wait until you are comfortable enough with him catching it.

[dionysia]

I can't remember if it was this thread or the other one that I posted this, but anyway, since CP is a live vaccine it sheds and therefore those who are not immune (such as your baby) can catch it so it's best to wait until you are comfortable enough with him catching it.My OB said to get the vax asap after birth. She knows I plan to breastfeed.

I will double-check with her however about when to get the vax.

Di

[Toonces]

what about rotovirus? isn't there a new one that's going back on the schedule?

Good question. I think they had one sometime in the last 6-12 months, but I don't know what the status is of it now. DD has had rotavirus 3 times. I know the first time is the worst (she actually gave it to me when I was 4 weeks PG - UGH!!). Her subsequent cases were extremely mild. I don't know that if she gets it from here on out how it would be - for example if she catches it again next January and hasn't had it since March, will it be bad all over again? I think we'd opt against that vax too since even at it's worst, it wasn't life threatening for DD. Of course she was nursing like a fiend then too so that might have helped. Curious to know what everyone else thinks about this one.

[alisong]

catgirl - That's an interesting theory! I'll have to give it some thought. My gut reaction is that it's not all that plausible because I'd imagine repeated exposure to CP would cause a surge in antibodies, when cell mediated immunity is what helps maintain latency (i.e. keep a virus dormant). Hmm.

I know it's probably too soon for most of us to be considering, but does anyone have early opinions on the new cervical cancer (HPV) vaccine?

[mimieliza]

Hep B - I think part of the rationale for giving hep B at birth/very early is that the younger a person is when they are exposed the greater chance they have of becoming a carrier, and of subsequently developing liver cancer.

But how would my young baby be exposed to HepB? I worked in a prison and received a lot of education about HepB, and I was doubtful about the necessity of the vax for myself. I ended up getting the vax, but it just isn't spread all that easily. Even sexual contact doesn't spread it all that easily - it really spreads through blood contact (such as IV drug use, which is why it was so common among inmates). Anyway, I really am curious about how an infant can be exposed, other than through birth if the mother has HepB.

HepB is one I am pretty sure we will skip at first (unless I read some more about possibilities for exposure in infants and young children). I'll have it done before she starts school, but I don't want to add it to the mix the first year.

I think I'm planning to get all other first-year vaxes, but may postpone MMR and Varicella.

I'm concerned about the new rotovirus vax. Rotovirus sounds like something we'd want to avoid, but I'm nervous about getting a brand new vax that hasn't been administered to a large population yet.

[basketcase]

There was a rotavirus vaccine several years ago, but they discontinued it because it was causing dangerous bowel obstruction in infants. The new (oral) rotavirus vaccine is now available. The CDC recommends three doses for infants at two, four, and six months.

Our pediatrician does not administer this vaccine because, in her opinion, it's still too new. Our child(ren) will not be getting this vaccine.

My son had rotavirus this past spring. It was certainly no fun, but it's nothing I would vaccinate against (personally). However, I can see how the new rotavirus vaccine would be beneficial in developing countries where getting the hydration one needs to overcome rotavirus is an issue.

[dana b]

rotavirus we definitely won't get it, i was just wondering if it's on the list yet (for ds due next month) and if they're making it one of the required vaxes vs. recommended. there's no way i'd use a brand new vax after what happened with the last rotavirus vaccine.
there's much more on what happened with the last one, this is just what i could find quickly (from a usa today article)
The first rotavirus vaccine, RotaShield, developed by Wyeth and licensed in 1998, was pulled from the market a year later because the vaccine, made with a form of monkey virus, caused intussusception, a dangerous bowel obstruction

for catgirl - from cdc
Although children can be infected with rotavirus several times during their lives, initial infection after age 3 months is most likely to cause severe diarrhea and dehydration (30,42,43). After a single natural infection, 40% of children are protected against any subsequent infection with rotavirus, 75% are protected against diarrhea from a subsequent rotavirus infection, and 88% are protected against severe diarrhea. Second, third, and fourth infections confer progressively greater protection (30).

[Toonces]

alisong ~ That's a plausible explanation, too. I guess I didn't question our Ped much b/c any vax he wants to delay, esp for an illness that for a majority of the population is not life threatening, then I'm on board with that.

HPV vax ~ Another good question... I have HPV. I was DX'd in 2001, had a biopsy and the biopsy ended up removing the harmful cells. Let me tell you, that biopsy was not pleasant. I haven't had a positive pap since then, had no problems with being PG and delivering my DD, and haven't had any probs with my 2nd pregnancy. HPV does scare the cr@p out of me though. I'm on the fence with this one. I'm one of those ppl who doesn't like meds and is skeptical of vaxes. I've had allergic reactions to 7 meds in my lifetime so I'm sure my views are slanted b/c of that.

HepB ~ Our first Ped started the series with DD in the hospital. This was before I was more knowledgeable about vaxes. :o Our current Ped (we switched for lots of reasons) delays the HepB virus b/c babies are in a low risk category for actually contracting HepB.

dana b ~ Thanks for the CDC rotavirus info. Hopefully we're out of the woods with that one now.... well, until DC#2 catches it for the first time. That is a nasty disease.

[lml41981]

lml - maybe if you tell your ped you'd like her to have a chance at catching it naturally first, and then you'll follow up with the vax at x date if she hasn't caught it or proved to be immune before then she'll back off? Otherwise, this is what I tell my ped if she persists on her pet vax - pertussis - "It's not up for discussion." and repeat as necessary. You can also change peds to one that's more open to non/selec vaxxing if you're not attatched to this one already.
That's her thing...is that she wants to vax kids before they get it naturally because she says she has seen kids even now die from complications. That actually concerns me because if kids are dying from complications, then they are not getting adequate medical care. She didn't say they were her patients, just that she's seen it. So, I don't know that she'd be open to waiting to see if she gets it naturally since she wants to prevent that from happening.

I really think I'll just have to do the, "No, I want to wait awhile and do more research on my own..." and then just not do it. We are pretty attached to her because she's pro-breastfeeding and anti-drugs unless absolutely necessary (heh...except most vaccines...she won't do Gardisil unless a parent demands it). I don't want to have to find another ped. If she will accept our choice on this, we'll stick with her. If she fires us, then I guess I don't want that kind of doctor anyway. She's respectful in every other aspect, though, so I hope this won't be her deal breaker.

[Rico'sAlice]

chicken pox for one...assuming there is no thimerasol in it, what is in it that makes you not want it?
i know there is a lot of controversy surrounding the MMR vax, specifically a link to autism (even though they don't use thimerasol anymore?).

Question though, it was my understanding that the MMR never contained thimerisol as it did not need a preservative. So wouldn't the speculation of the "link to autism" be some other factor other than thimerisol?

Neither the Varicella (chix pox) nor MMR (or the individual/split-up shots) have ever contained thimerosol. Thimerisol is a preservative that would kill the live virus used in these.

[OP- Not sure how we’re defining “debate” vs. controversy vs. information. Let me know if I should edit anything]

RE: Vax & Autism-
I think it is unfortunate that the issue got so oversimplified in the media- I think it is partially the fault of how some Autism and/or anti-vax activists framed things, but also just the way the media presents things in general. I think it sets up an incorrect paradigm and allows people to feel like taking thimerisol out of the vax makes everything all better. The aluminum & formaldehyde remain; the live vaccines continue to introduce viruses to the body in a wholly unnatural way, etc. There are dangers from vaccines completely separate from the autism issue (For me, autism is not at the top of my worry list as far as vax damage) And there are cases of autism in children who have never been vaccinated. That doesn't mean that there isn't a relationship. Whatever conclusion one may draw at the end of the research process I think we are all shortchanged (on both sides) when the issue is oversimplified.

I believe that in most cases there are a number of factors that must work (or rather malfunction) together to produce autism. [There seem to be a very small percentage of people who end up with ASD purely from genetics, and that has probably been the case for centuries.]
The process probably starts with nutritional deficiencies, esp minerals,
in the mother’s diet during pregnancy & BFing and/or in child's diet.
Bad diet makes viruses worseMaternal selenium nutrition and neonatal immune system development.[/COLOR] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12169835


This can be due to SAD (Standard American Diet), soil depletion Mineral levels in meat and milk plummet over 60 years
http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1700223,00.html, history of BC pills[Hormone use causes zinc deficiency, http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/eletters/330/7487/342etc. Polycystic ovarian syndrome, the Pill and mineral deficiencies.http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/eletters/317/7154/329#69506
Then there are problems with gut flora. Either mom (during preg & BF) or child has taken antibiotics, & does not eat enough cultured/fermented foods. The Bacterial Flora of Humans. Scroll down to "THE BENEFITS OF THE NORMAL FLORA
The indigenous bacteria of the gastrointestinal tract of an animal, perhaps mainly as a consequence of their great numbers, seem to have the greatest overall impact on their host."
http://textbookofbacteriology.net/normalflora.html


In the meantime the child has been building up mercury in the body from mom (fillings, fish, etc.), certain vaxes.

There are other metals and toxins associated w/ ASD as well. (mercury, cadmium, nickel, trichloroethylene and vinyl chloride) (http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/health/HealthRepublish_309902.htm"http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/health/HealthRepublish_309902.htm Metallothionein protein plays an important role in regulation of zinc and copper levels in the blood http://www.biowaves.com/Articles/MT/Metallothionein01.phpIn February of 2000, William Walsh, Ph.D. of the Pfeiffer Treatment Center, discovered that most autistic clients exhibit MT dysfunction and that the classic signs of autism can be explained by a MT dysfunction. He proposed that autism results from an intersection of two factors. One, a genetic defect involving marginal or defective MT functioning followed by two, an environmental insult during early development.

Then the MMR is given and due to all this damage (& the unnatural method of introduction) the measles virus is able to set up camp in the gut. Elevated rubella titers are also found in kids w/ ASD, suggesting that it too can produce chronic immune response. (http://www.vaccinationnews.com/DailyNews/February2002/PRElevRubeolaTitersAut.htm)

There are also issues with opioid overload- casein & gluten are turned into morphine-like substance by the body. Not a big deal for most of us, but when you have enzyme deficiencies so you don’t break things down enough and a leaky gut on top of that you get overwhelmed. This is why so many with ASD are helped by a gluten & dairy free diet.
More of GFCF diet and the "opioid theory of autism"http://www.gfcfdiet.com/Explanationofdiet.htm http://www.autismndi.com/news/display.asp?content=Resources&shownews=20040721150209


Mostly, I am just typing what I can remember off of the top of my head. I will have to come back later and add references. More discussion along these lines (very long thread) can be found at http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=367180&highlight=autism (”http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=367180&highlight=autis”)
http://www.ont-autism.uoguelph.ca/jory-autism-jun02.html"Recent Theories for the Pathophysiology of Autism: Brain autoimmunity; Deficits in sulfur metobolism; Abnormal liver detoxification; Gastrointestinal abnormalities"

http://www.gnd.org/autism/overview.htm Links to ref article abstracts are in original doc for each of these points. There are some things Bradstreet ignores, but it is a good startWhat caused the immune injury or alterations? A genetic weakness (C4B null allele) and/or redisposition, combined with one or more of the following:
-ack! my post is too long, there were 10 items here-you'll just have to go to the link-

1) Shortened or absent breast-feeding preventing the full development of transferred cellular immunity. (Fudenberg)
2) Early gluten (usually wheat) introduction prior to one year of age. Wheat has been genetically manipulated in the last 100 years to increase the gluten content.
3) Early use of cow's milk or casein based formulas.
4) Immunizations with live viruses, especially the MMR after 1978. There is frequent regression after the MMR vaccine that has been observed and published (Wakefield). Other vaccinations and the resulting effects on interleukin or autoimmunity. (Singh) DPT (especially if whole cell pertussis is used) and HepB (not live viruses) may also play a role in immune alterations.
5) Use of antibiotics and resulting yeast and pathogenic bacteria infection or overgrowth, with resulting immune modification and toxic exposure. (Shaw, Fudenberg, Wuepper)
6) Maternal allergy, chronic fatigue syndrome, or leaky gut problems that caused the child to be pre-sensitized in the womb. (Fudenberg)
7) Leaky gut from any number of the above or also related to parasites or GI infections in the child that allow gluten and casein to leak into the bloodstream.

Interesting new article on epigenetics- http://www.canada.com/edmontonjournal/news/bodyandhealth/story.html?id=d6cb520e-679a-4108-b820-a8f24943a4c4 Does not talk about autism, but helps explain how the rate of "genetic" sensitivity of toxins, MV, dietary factors, etc. could have accelerated so rapidly.

This is just a brief skim of some of the items that surround the mercury/MMR/Autism conundrum. Things are still much more complex than this. One guy I work with was plunged into autism immediately after his MMR, but his mom didn’t believe the connection & continued to vax. Then at ~7 he was getting a tetanus booster (not sure which type) and manifested Turrets syndrome w/in a week. He also fell ill (fever and such) and when he recovered had developed significant mood swings and began to act in a violent and destructive manner; he has since been diagnosed as bi-polar. (Of course, the Tylenol she gave to reduce his fever probably added to his problem) Why did the vax affect his brain in such a strange manner when I had all the same ones without any (as of yet detectable) problem?

No more room in this post. If there is a specific item anyone wants me to (try to) explain or give more/better refs for just let me know.

[Toonces]

Why did the vax affect his brain in such a strange manner when I had all the same ones without any (as of yet detectable) problem?

That's awful! I really feel for your co-worker. Like you though, I wonder why does this happen to some children and not others? My mom was PG with me in 1969, lived in San Antonio, ate $1.99 Mexican food buffets, drank iced tea, I'm sure wasn't taking vitamins, BF me for 4 months, but gave me solids (pureed meat - eeewww) at 3 weeks, and I've had all my vaxes. I do have horrific allergies, but that's nothing compared to what your co-worker experienced.

[tgal]

OMG, this thread took off, how wonderful. You ladies are a wealth of information and it is much appreciated as I too didn't too much other research than read the book. So, our ped and the book conflict quite a bit. I will definitely look into everything you all suggested, thanks again and I look forward to being further educated here. :D

[Kanga]

[OP- Not sure how we’re defining “debate” vs. controversy vs. information. Let me know if I should edit anything]

Since "debate" can be defined in so many different ways, I think we're good so far because no one IMO has been disrespectful of anyone else's choice/opinion or started beating a dead horse while on a soapbox. (where aer those smilies anyways:p )

But how would my young baby be exposed to HepB?

Unless they were sexually abused or the mother had Hep B, then they can't. The gov't wants to vax everybody though with the hopes of eradicating the disease. But since nobody really knows how long immunity lasts (i've heard around 5-10 years depending on who you ask) I bet it's sometime off before.

what about rotovirus? isn't there a new one that's going back on the schedule?

Well, I don't do any vaxes, but you'd have to kill me before I did a new vax. I'll try to find a link on how they test for safety. Momtezuma Tuatara's book, Just a little Prick, goes into how they test vaccines for safety. From what I remember, they test 100 healthy kids, but then license it for those that were excluded in the test group... I'll be back after look up what their definition of healthy is, but basically, they can not have any disease, such as type 1 diabetes, had their cord blood drawn, really any physical or neurological problems at all, and then watch them for 2 days afterwards for any reactions and check titers. I'm assuming bowel obstruction would take longer than 2 days and that's why it went unnoticed before it was released to the general public.

And just like tetanus, since having it doesn't mean lifelong immunity, how in the world is a vax supposed to give immunity?

That's her thing...is that she wants to vax kids before they get it naturally because she says she has seen kids even now die from complications.

Well, you can die from just about anything. I might die in a car accident on the way to get groceries today, or never wake up after I go to sleep tonight, etc, etc. It's funny, because I don't remember kids dropping like flies when the vax wasn't available and I was in school. Even the common cold can cause death if everything is "right", especially in an immune-compromised person, such as one with AIDS. Saying something like that w/out giving exact numbers is just a scare tactic. We also don't know anything about the kids who died. Maybe they weren't healthy to begin with,I'll try to find the exact numbers. Here (http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/pink/appendices/G/cases&deaths.pdf) it is...last I could find was 2003 and a whopping 16 people died, meaning they could have been kids or adults.

That actually concerns me because if kids are dying from complications, then they are not getting adequate medical care. She didn't say they were her patients, just that she's seen it.

Actually, the exact opposite is probably true. They were probably given antibiotics and tylenol.

HPV vax - It acts very much like CP after you're over it. It remains in the body, but you'd never know it with the exception of a few people who have problems from it. It's also a new vax, so until it's been out for at least a few years, the safety is mostly unknown (think RotaShield). They started out by saying they only want girls around 10-12 years of age, but now it's suddenly becoming 5 year olds, boys and girls.

chicken pox for one...assuming there is no thimerasol in it, what is in it that makes you not want it?
i know there is a lot of controversy surrounding the MMR vax, specifically a link to autism (even though they don't use thimerasol anymore?).

FTR, autism and thimerosal are not at the top of my list of things I am skeptical about in vaxes. I'm glad they have drastically reduced the am't in vaxes, assuming that's true - HGMorgan I'd love to read the article you're referring to if you can find it - but it doesn't make me want to rush out and get dd caught up on her vaxes. What I'm most worried about are the carcinogens, adjuvents, rheumatoid arthritis, juvenile diabetes, and catching the disease in adulthood after immunity has worn off. Should I give dd the CP vax now, she'd be more at risk for catching it in her teen years and having more serious complications. I'd rather have her catch it now, get lifelong immunity and at the very most, come down with shingles.

I posted this on the front page as well, but now it's not only the CDC that has a conflict of interst, but now the FDA as well. http://www.newstarget.com/z020118.html

[BeachBum]

If anyone has more information on how to order the MMR separate I would like it. I'm in Florida if it matters. Cost isn't the issue.

My doc has said that it simply can't be done in the US. That if I wanted them split I would have to go to Europe and it would be an entirely different form of the vax.

DS turns 1yr next month and we have not vaxxed....I'm so torn on what to do.

[Kanga]

Beachbum - Your dr. is misinformed or lying...there are plenty of moms on MDC and probably here as well that have gotten seperate MMR's. I'd start calling around to different offices and see if they have it or can get it. You might have to switch and become their patient, but you can always switch back as well. Go to the Finding your tribe (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/forumdisplay.php?f=77) forum on MDC and find your general area in florida and see if anybody else knows where you can get it in your area. There is nothing magical about being a year for the MMR, it's just the earliest teh vax makers. Your ds is at no greater risk of catching any of those diseases (and they used to be common childhood diseases) at 1 year than he is now or 3 mo ago, or 6 mo ago, etc. So if you're not comfortable giving it to him, then just tell him you'd like to delay it until you have more time to research it(you can tell him you're doing the seperate ones, but he probably won't believe you) and then when you do get them, show him the records.

BTW - while we're talking about splitting up vaxes, you can also have the DTaP split up as well. DTaP is one of the vaccines that causees the most reactions. There is an increase in SIDS at 2mo, and 4mo, coincidentally or not when most kids receive their 2 and 4mo shots of DTaP.

You can see the number of cases and deathshere (http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/pink/appendices/G/cases&deaths.pdf)for any VPD, although 2003 is the most current info. Measles and Rubella have probably gone down further, and I believe mumps was estimated to be around 1000 cases in 06.

More on HPV - Like the flu shot and pneumococcal (Prevnar) shot, it only protects against certain strains. Also, here is a quote from post #4 on an MDC thread (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=507903)

They're not telling women that in clinical trials, those who had been already infected with a cancer-causing strain of HPV and then got the HPV vaccine were more likely to develop cancer.

So according to this, catgirl1007, you shouldn't get the vaccine. Somebody also said that it states on the company website that having cervical cancer is a contraindiction to the vaccine.

dionysia One more thing I forgot to mention - you can have your titers checked to see if you are immune to CP - many people never develop symptoms to CP but are still immune. They draw your blood for various other things soon after birth, so it wouldn't even be an extra needle prick.

Does anyone have any information on how many doses of each vaccine is recommended if you do a delayed schedule? I know that you need less doses if you wait until a certain age (1+?) but can't seem to find any info on it.

[Marisa]

Kanga -- I know that there are several vaxes that we skipped, that lose their efficacy after age 2, I believe. There are a few that Joey will never get now.

I've got a toddler in my lap so I can't google right now, but I believe I found the info just on the regular state chart of when vaxes should be administered... check your state's health dept. website.

[Delta]

Just FYI - The MMR never had thimerosal in it. Its supposed link to autism has to do with the measles virus that is found in the bowel of kids who've been diagnosed as autistic. The MMR is also thought to trigger a negative autoimmune response in certain susceptible children (as is I guess the thimerosal in other vaxes of old.)

FTR, I'm holding off on MMR as long as possible. I don't feel any rush to get it done.

My biggest concern about vaxes isn't really even the thimerosal. I don't think it's healthy to immunize a young baby for 7 different diseases at one time. I wouldn't even do that to myself. There is nothing wrong with being thoughtful about what goes into your kids' bodies and why. The schedule is developed with overall public health in mind - via impersonal statistics - not your individual child.

[Marisa]

My biggest concern about vaxes isn't really even the thimerosal. I don't think it's healthy to immunize a young baby for 7 different diseases at one time. I wouldn't even do that to myself. There is nothing wrong with being thoughtful about what goes into your kids' bodies and why. The schedule is developed with overall public health in mind - via impersonal statistics - not your individual child.

I agree with this. This is why we've selectively vaxed, starting at 2 months, on our own schedule. I have enough faith in myself that I will keep up with his shots at an appropriate time, and be "caught up" with the remaining vaxes by the time he needs to be in a school environment.

The exceptions, of course, for us -- the vaxes he would no longer need (the ones given in infancy that are no longer effective -- I delayed as long as I did because I'm lucky enough to stay home with him)... and chicken pox, I really hope he gets it naturally, but it is required by public schools in NJ.

[kmack]

thanks for the clarification Rico's Alice and others - i didn't realize the live vaxs never had thimerosal.

your post was very interesting and brings up my husband's boggest sticking point as to why DD should get all vaxs as directed by the dr and exactly when she tells us to(basically he will do anything a dr. says even if it is the most ridiculous, unheard of thing , just because a 'doctor' said so, but onto my point)...if they were so harmful, how come he and i never developed problems from it, or any of our nieces and newphews, etc. etc.

your post gives me more ammo for my argument, i never really could explain why it happens to some and not to others.

basically vaccinations just scare me to death. in 'what your dr. may not tell you...", i can't even read the little sidebars anymore about children who changed right after a vax. it just gives me a knot in my stomach to think about something like that happening to one of my children. my sister does not vaccinate but i don't think i could go totally in that direction either.

question my husband has never had the chicken pox and DD just got her vax, the ped. never said anything about him potentially being exposed to it b/c it is a live virus. should i bring it up??

[Marisa]

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5451-Immunizationa1.htm?s_cid=mm5451-Immunizationa1_e

Scroll down to the "catch-up" schedule ... in the footnotes it says that Hib and PCV are not recommended after age 5.

[Kanga]

Scroll down to the "catch-up" schedule ... in the footnotes it says that Hib and PCV are not recommended after age 5.


This also means that if your chid starts school after age 5, they can not exclude you from school if your child doesn't have them based on that alone.

[Rico'sAlice]

That's awful! I really feel for your co-worker.
Not that this is important, but when I said I worked w/ him, I meant I was taking care of him.

[lml41981]

[In response to my comment about kids who died from CP complications not getting adequate care...]
Actually, the exact opposite is probably true. They were probably given antibiotics and tylenol.
That was my point...you don't treat a virus with antibiotics and the antibiotics kill off the good bacteria that helps the body fight the CP. Then, I suppose the Tylenol taxes the liver, which is already in overdrive fighting the virus (not to mention it brings down the fever, which is needed to fight the virus).

Improper care is inadequate care, which was what I failed to get at. ;)

[Kanga]

Improper care is inadequate care, which was what I failed to get at.


Gotchya - I assumed you had meant no medical care after a complication arose.

This thread goes into more detail on why one should receive antibiotics, analgesics, steriods, and tylenol should not be used to treat viruses, CP in particular. It also goes into some detail about nutrition and why one isn't normally hungry when they are sick.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=209443

ETA - I'm going to put on the front page why I've chosen to avoid all vaccines, but I don't think it's fair or right to only have my opinion on there when clearly there are a bunch more. I don't want people who are just skimming through the thread to think it's mostly all non-vaxxers and be turned off by that, so I'm looking for a few people who would want to write a couple paragraphs for the front page on why they've choosen what to do what they've done/are going to do

[dionysia]

Kanga,
Thank you for your ETA. I hate to say it, but it's cemented for me that I won't participate in this thread anymore.

I was hoping this would actually be a factual, informational thread rather than one of opinions and speculation.

Oh well.

(no hard feelings, really! :) )

Di

[Kanga]

Kanga,
Thank you for your ETA. I hate to say it, but it's cemented for me that I won't participate in this thread anymore.

I was hoping this would actually be a factual, informational thread rather than one of opinions and speculation.

Oh well.

(no hard feelings, really! :) )

Di

Uh, I thought it was factual.:confused: Of course my opinions and as well as others, some who disagree with me, have been posted in the thread, but I didn't think it would cause people to feel judged (which is I assume why you're leaving?) In any event, I'm sorry I made you feel that way.

[kmack]

how is this thread not factual? almost everyone who has stated their opinion has posted a link to support why they feel that way, no?

FWIW kanga i think you (and everyone else) were just stating your 'facts' and were not trying to shove your opinions/beliefs down anyone throats. that being said, maybe we can make this a non/selective vaccination thread instead. it really is such a touchy subject i don't know how all views can be posted in here without there being a debate stirred up. someone who is pro-vaccination maybe could start a separate thread - i know i would certainly read through both b/c i would love to hear the facts from both sides since i am sort of in the middle right now.

[Marisa]

This also means that if your chid starts school after age 5, they can not exclude you from school if your child doesn't have them based on that alone.

This is what I think will happen with us -- my son was born in January and will therefore be 5 1/2 when we're registering him for Kindergarten... so at that point it's moot.

If it were to happen that I'd have to go back to work before then, or something, necessitating him being in a daycare/school setting -- we'd work to catch him up on what we've delayed for now. As it is, though, I'm pleased with the way we were able to get only some when he was younger, and wait until he's three or older (after 01/07) for the ones I wanted to wait on.

There's no reason why you can't be pro-vax and still anti-'official schedule' at the same time. :)

[NYN]

if people don't want to read along b/c they don't think the information is factual then that is fine, whatever. please let's not turn this into a debate thread b/c i will be really upset. :(

There's no reason why you can't be pro-vax and still anti-'official schedule' at the same time.
very true. since no one seems to be posting why they chose to vaccinate i will share my story.

we vaccinated my DD against HepB at 4 months (her first vaccination). at the time we thought that she would start daycare at 5.5 months (this daycare requires HepB) but i actually ended up staying home until she was a year. my DD will start daycare next month (13.5 months) and she will have had 3 rounds of HepB, 2 of DTaP, 2 of IPV and 1 of Hib. we will not follow up on the Hib vax (regret having the first one done in the first place) and we are not doing CP or MMR at this time. if when she starts kindergarten we still do not want to finish the required vaxxes we will seek a religious exemption (the only one available for NYS).

things i have learned/wish i had done differently: i stayed w/ my pediatrician out of loyalty (she was my doctor as a kid) and convenience (she is two blocks away) but in hindsight i wish i had sought a doctor who was more in tune w/ my ideas. i feel like she is very used to dealing with a population who believes everything their doctor says and she used scare tactics to get us to vaccinate. for example, she knew that we had decided not to do Hib b/c we hadn't had time to research it so she threw out false "statistics" at us. when i got home and began researching it, i found out a bunch of information, including that my daughter's chances of contracting Hib disease are slim to none simply b/c she is breastfed. anyway, my point is i wish i had gone to a doctor who i could have had a rational conversation with, who didn't lie to me. i will always have regrets b/c i allowed her to let me doubt myself even though i knew better. so that is my biggest piece of advice: get a good doctor. whatever "good" means is relative of course.

my second piece of advice, as someone else mentioned previously, is never vaccinate unless you have researched it up, down, sideways and other ways. as someone else said, you can always vaccinate but you can never take that vaccination back. you wouldn't allow your child to eat or drink something if you didn't know what it was. be dilligent in that way w/ everything that goes into your child's body, including vaxx's.

just my 2 cents.

[VoiceOfReason]

Newbie here...Just read through the first couple pages of posts. I assume this thread is dedicated to facts as well as some assumptions (i.e., interpretation of facts). I would like to try to offer some objective observations. In the 3rd post by Kanga, you listed the 2003 numbers of reported cased and deaths. I need to point out that the author of that original data strongly cautions that the data "reported" is likely very low as compared to the actual numbers of cases. Many thousands of pertussis cases are misdiagnosed yearly. Your conclusion also states that the CDC numbers of adverse events exceeds the numbers of deaths. Please, remember that is is because of vaccines being used for so many years that the incidence of these diseases is so incredibly low! Your own "links" point that out repeatedly- WHO and Canadian and European and US studies all have pointed that out (there is no US Government conspiracy going on here...these are worlwide, independant studies). About the only reason that anyone can even consider to "not immunize" their child is because the vaccines exist and have been used.
That being said... I certainly feel that the schedule of vaccines is "nebulous" at best, and does not have as much data supporting it.

[kmack]

more questions:

so overall is the reasoning behind delaying vaxs to let the child's immune system become stronger?

recently there has been an 'outbreak' of measles in the boston area MA Health Alert (http://www.mass.gov/dph/cdc/epii/imm/alerts/measles_alert_20060607.pdf#search='measles%20cases %20in%20ma')i know if/when i ask to delay the MMR vax the ped. is going to bring this up and scare me into getting it. would this affect anyone's decision at all?

[lml41981]

more questions:

so overall is the reasoning behind delaying vaxs to let the child's immune system become stronger?

recently there has been an 'outbreak' of measles in the boston area MA Health Alert (http://www.mass.gov/dph/cdc/epii/imm/alerts/measles_alert_20060607.pdf#search='measles%20cases %20in%20ma')i know if/when i ask to delay the MMR vax the ped. is going to bring this up and scare me into getting it. would this affect anyone's decision at all?
My ped. said that if there was an outbreak in our area, she would want DD vaccinated. Honestly, I don't think that I would vaccinate even if there were an outbreak. I don't know for sure, though. I need to keep reading.

[Toonces]

so overall is the reasoning behind delaying vaxs to let the child's immune system become stronger?

recently there has been an 'outbreak' of measles in the boston area MA Health Alert (http://www.mass.gov/dph/cdc/epii/imm/alerts/measles_alert_20060607.pdf#search='measles%20cases %20in%20ma')i know if/when i ask to delay the MMR vax the ped. is going to bring this up and scare me into getting it. would this affect anyone's decision at all?

Our reasoning for delaying certain vaxes is catching the illness that it's supposed to prevent is less scary to us than our DD getting a vax that's filled with potentially harmful substances. That's just us though. I'm sure other parents have different reasons. After I learn more, I might add to that. I'm still not as informed as I'd like to be.

There was a measles outbreak in our area last Fall. DD turned 1 in October and was eligible to get the vax, but we opted to skip it and her Ped was fine with that. Measles is a typically mild disease that if caught early and monitored will not lead to further complications. I believe all of us are at risk for measles since the vax doesn't last a lifetime and it's more dangerous to catch measles at an older age than at a younger age (I can't remember how many years it lasts - maybe 7-10?? I think that's how long the rubella vax lasts).

I'm going off of memory re the above, so if anyone has addt'l info, please feel free to correct me.

[Kanga]

Well, you'll all probably think I'm wierd, and maybe you do already anyways :D , but I LIKE "outbreaks". I WANT to find measles, mumps, rubella, and CP so my dd never has to worry about it again. The reason I put outbreak in quotes is because there was an "outbreak" of polio in a northern state (Minnesota IIRC). A whopping 5 people were diagnosed. I don't know what everyones definition of "outbreak is, but to me 5 people is no where near an outbreak. Now the mumps outbreak here in the midwest, (only wish my dd was older at the time...I'd have been hunting down every college student I know) that to me was an outbreak. The latest estimate I heard was around 1000 - 1200 infected people, most at risk were 18-22, next was 22-40. They say they expect another outbreak as students return to school because the last one ended when school let out for the summer. I can only hope so, but since I haven't heard of anybody as of late that's contracted it, I doubt it.

BTW - before anybody freaks about the polio outbreak - the people who caught it were Amish (so maybe they didn't have clean enough water?) and caught it from the OPV (oral polio vaccine) which is no longer distributed in the U.S. because it's a live vaccine and you can catch polio from it. IPV which is what is currently available for polio, does not protect against OPV.

Seperate threads - I really don't care either way, but until somebody starts a pro-vax thread, this one will remain open and welcome for anybody as to not exclude anyone.

For those worried about what their peds will say when skipping/delaying some vax - usually they don't mind unless you are skipping all vaxes completey and if you do that, well then there's not much point behind WBV anyways. We take our dd to some here and there just to keep an ongoing relationship should dd become ill - then I will have a feel for what type of dr. she is - but I don't see the need to pay somebody $25 to weigh, meausure, and look in her ears. I can do that by myself at home for free. And if you're wavering or even if you're sure you want to skip delay - you can tell them you'd like to research before you do anything else. Any dr. that doesn't want you to do research outside of teh dr. on your child's health is a huge red flag to me. So don't let them scare you, do your own research, ask for their opinion if you'd like, and stay firm in your decision. If you're worried about being scared/pushed into it, bring your dh or somebody who you know will back you up.

My ped. said that if there was an outbreak in our area, she would want DD vaccinated.

The thing is, it's usually the vax kids with whatever disease the outbreak is. Mumps was recently here, and my sister is a college student. I asked her to ask around for me to see if she could find one person who knew they had never been vaccinated for mumps and had fallen ill and she couldn't. She did however find plenty of "fully vaxxed" (whatever that means anyways, they keep changing it) students who had gotten mumps. They've now changed it from 1 dose to 2, but I would think by the time your dc is able to receive 2 doses, the outbreak would be pretty much overwith. They also say around 97-98% are immune on the first dose, and the second "booster" (it's not really a booster, it's the same as the first one) is to catch that 2-3% that slipped through the cracks.

so overall is the reasoning behind delaying vaxs to let the child's immune system become stronger?


That is only part of it. Here's a link (http://www.vaccinationnews.com/DailyNews/October2001/MechEncephVax.htm), but basically it's also myelination which doesn't occur until birth, and occurs very fast for the first few years (every child is different, so there's no magical #, but usually between 3 and 4), then slows down after that. It is not complete until approx 20 years of age. Myelination is the coating of the nerve cells in the brain, and when interupted can cause all kinds of neurological problems such as ADD, ADHD, some say turette's although I don't think that one's been proven yet, some say autism, autism spectrum disorders, etc. There are other things, and probably a combo of things that can disrupt myelination, but all I can remember right now are vaxes, genetics, and mercury. Why one child is seemingly unaffected from receiving the same medical treatment as one who is severly affected has yet to be found. Also, at 2 or 3 or whenever you start vaxxing, the child is at a higher weight. There is no difference in a vaccine that 2mo old would receive vs an adult (assuming the vax is recommended for adults and babies alike, such as CP), except in some cases the vaccine an adult may get has less of the disease and some have mercury, although they are not regularly used. The adult vaccines have less of the disease in it because of higher reaction rates in adults. There's 2 theories on this - 1. That adults have better immune systems, therefore they react more/faster/better. 2. That babies can't communicate well, so they can't complain like an adult can.

Here is a thread (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=225389&highlight=Myelination) on myelination and others' experiences. In the What to Expect Series, it lists things you should go to the ER over if you child develops those symptoms, but yet under vaccinations, it lists identical symptoms under "normal behavior." So it's ok if the vax did it, but anything else should be cause for concern. :confused:

Ok...I got out the book "What to Expect the First Year" (the second of the what-to-expect series) and this is the direct quote : (minus italicies)
Encephalitis-
symptoms:Fever, drowsiness, headache (that would be fussiness?)sometimes...neurological imparement (seizures?) coma at late stage

Causes-bacteria or viruses
Call the doctor?- immediately or go to the ER
Treatment-hospitalization is required

Common reactions to DTP:
fever
fussiness
drowsiness
(amongst others pertaining to injection site)

When to call the doctor after the DTP : (notice no mention of the ER!!!!)
High pitched persistant crying for more than 3 hours
Excessive sleepiness (difficult to wake)
Unusual limpness or paleness
Rectal temperature of 104 or higher
Convulsions


ETA - Here is a link to most of the package inserts for vaccines and immunoglobulins licensed for use in the U.S. You should still ask to see the insert at the dr.'s office though to make sure it is what you want.

[kmack]

thanks for the info about myelination, i will read through it later.

the 'outrbreak' of measles was 11 people, not sure how you really define outbreak though...in the alert it says 7 cases had unknown immunization history, and four had been immunized against it.

[VoiceOfReason]

Whew! I just read the link on brain myelination...
Again, I am trying hard to be objective. The author does reference any studies that actually describe a link between vaccination and brain demyelination. I see hypothesis and conjecture, especially when read very closely.
My observation, using the authors same referenced studies, is that the actual incidence of encephalitis has remained stable (except outbreaks of LaCrosse E, West Nile E, tick-borne E and other infectious causes) despite Eurpoe and the US having the highest percentage of vaccinated children in the world. If there were a direct, causal link, the incidence could not be "covered up" by any organization. The numbers would be reflected in any research. Again, I must state that I not buy into any "conspiracy theory" that suggests that a cover-up of serious life-threatening side effects is happening. I just doesn't hold up in my reading of original research articles.

[VoiceOfReason]

NYN,
I am glad that you stay informed, and you look up your own data. I'm sorry to see that your data led you to believe that simply by breastfeeding your child you have a slim-to-none chance of her getting Hib meningitis. Hib meningitis used to be so prevalent (we're talking 15 years ago) that any time a baby went to the doctor with a high fever (over 101 in a child less than 4 months) it had to have a spinal-tap (lumbar puncture) to check for this disease and have 48 hours of Intravenous antibiotics until the culture from the spinal fluid had "grown" to prove it wasn't there. I am seriously talking about almost every child that didn't have any other obvious source of infection. Now that the Hib vaccine has been around for so long, Hib meningitis is so rare that it is rarely a part of the workup. That is the real reason your child has a low chance of "catching" Hib meningitis.

However, if a significant number of people opt out of getting the Hib vaccine series then it will become more prevalent, and the hospitals will end up having to do more invasive procedures. I live in an area with a high immigrant population. Infants in our area could possibly be exposed to "anything".

[littlebear]

I'm an epidemiologist and strongly pro-vax. I've vaxed my child completely on schedule according to my ped's recommendations because I believe that it's best not only for my child but for public health reasons as well. I fell there are well established epidemiologic principles and public health rationale behind many of the vax schedules and recommendations. IMO, there is also no strong scientific evidence showing causal links or even strong associations between vaxes and a variety of the purported illnesses that vaxes 'cause' while there is strong evidence in favor of the benefits of vaccination. Others will disagree with this, but I have formed by opinion based on my background in public health and my reading of the current body of peer-reviewed evidence available.

As for the definition of an outbreak....the official definition is the occurrence in a geographic area of cases of an illness with a frequency clearly in excess of what would normally be expected. The number of cases defining an outbreak can then vary based on the agent, the population at risk, time and place of occurrence. So while a handful of cases of polio may not seem like an outbreak, based on the epidemiologic definition the number of cases is far higher than would be expected in a given area in the US due to what is normally seen because of vaccine coverage.

Information from the CDC about the safety of multiple vaxes at once
http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/concerns/gen/multiplevac.htm

Summary of the Institute of Medicine Report reviewing a variety of issues

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/vacsafe/concerns/gen/multiplevac_iom.htm
There's a link on the page to the full report as well which is helpful if you want to get references for the actual peer-reviewed journal articles so that you can review them for yourself and form your own opinion.
The first report on Measles, Mumps, Rubella (MMR) vaccine and autism was released in April 2001 and the second report on thimerosal-containing vaccines and neurodevelopmental disorders was released in October 2001. On February 20 2002, the IOM released its third report which addressed multiple immunizations and immune dysfunction.

The IOM Immunization Safety Review Committee’s most important conclusions were

1. A review of the available scientific evidence does not support the hypothesis that the infant immune system is inherently incapable of handling the number of antigens that children are exposed to during routine immunizations,
2. The epidemiologic evidence (i.e., from studies of vaccine-exposed populations and their control groups) favors rejection of a causal relationship between multiple immunizations and increased risk for infections or for type 1 diabetes mellitus,
3. The epidemiologic evidence regarding increased risk for allergic disease, particularly asthma, was inadequate to accept or reject a causal relationship.

[HGMorgann]

QUOTE]About the only reason that anyone can even consider to "not immunize" their child is because the vaccines exist and have been used.
[/QUOTE]

This is a huge misconception. Most VPD that we vaccinate (I refuse to call it immunize because most is temporary) against are not to be feared or our children have no risk of.
HIB - she is breastfed and there is documented evidence that indicates the risk of reaction from the vaccine is greater than the risk of disease
HepB - sexually transmited disease. She can make the decision when she is older if she wants this vaccine
Diptheria - unsanitary living conditions. Risk minimal for those living in single family dwellings with proper sewage systems.
MMR/CP - Diseases that we feel comfortable with her getting as a child. You can call me a bad parent, I know better.


I too am highly educated. I can make educated decisions for my daughter. I also know that my ped. is highly educated and active in vaccine research. I trust him over pharmacuetically influenced mainstream doctors.

One my main concerns is that vaccines are tested on healthy children. There have not been studies on vaccines and fertility and other diseases. The increase in neurological problems, asthma, allergies, and yes, autism and other sensory spectrum disorders concern me.

One can not say that a vaccine will not harm/injure/kill their child. Babies die from vaccines, and yes, they die from VPD (and many many many other diseases, injuries, baths...).

The above listed report proves that there needs to be more research, because we can not say whether a vaccine causes autism/asthma, ect. What if it does? Where do we go from there? How about all the times that the medical community has been wrong...from formula being best to the old rotavirus vaccine. I will trust the knowlege that I have, my ped, and my mothering instincts over a mainstream, for-profit medical community that is constantly changing its story.

And yes, I have personally (IRL, not online) seen three of my friend's 12-15 mo. sons go from happy, talking, social babies to non-verbal, no eye contact, eventually diagnosed autistic children within 24 hours after receiving the MMR....and yes, that scares the crap out of me.

[littlebear]

FTR, I wasn't trying to start a debate. The point of this thread is to post information on vaxes from all sources. Someone also asked those who were pro-vax to post how they came to that decision so that's why I posted my background. I wasn't implying that those who chose not to vax were not educated. It's all a matter of how you interpret the research.

[Toonces]

Question~ Is it possible to have a hospital birth and tell the attending Ped that you want to "delay" all newborn vaxes? Our Ped doesn't service the hospital where I'll be delivering. He referred me to someone he used to work with, but if that Dr isn't available and someone else from his practice comes, I'm worried that they'll make a stink about me wanting to delay/skip vaxes. I know that no one can make you do anything, but I'd just like to be prepared for what might get thrown my way. DD has her 24 month appt in October and I'll talk with our Ped about this then, but wanted to know if anyone in this thread can provide some info. Also, what about the PKU test... is that something that can be skipped?

And yes, I have personally (IRL, not online) seen three of my friend's 12-15 mo. sons go from happy, talking, social babies to non-verbal, no eye contact, eventually diagnosed autistic children within 24 hours after receiving the MMR....and yes, that scares the crap out of me.

That is so sad and terrifying. :(

[ThreeYell]

I vaxed on schedule for the same reasons that littlebear explained, especially this:
IMO, there is also no strong scientific evidence showing causal links or even strong associations between vaxes and a variety of the purported illnesses that vaxes 'cause' while there is strong evidence in favor of the benefits of vaccination.

I'm an extended nurser, strong supporter of natural birth and MDC lurker, so I do have my crunchy card in some areas. ;) But for vaccines, I just don't see any good reason not to. Like littlebear, the science that I trust supports vaccines.

[NYN]

Question~ Is it possible to have a hospital birth and tell the attending Ped that you want to "delay" all newborn vaxes? Our Ped doesn't service the hospital where I'll be delivering. He referred me to someone he used to work with, but if that Dr isn't available and someone else from his practice comes, I'm worried that they'll make a stink about me wanting to delay/skip vaxes. I know that no one can make you do anything, but I'd just like to be prepared for what might get thrown my way. DD has her 24 month appt in October and I'll talk with our Ped about this then, but wanted to know if anyone in this thread can provide some info. Also, what about the PKU test... is that something that can be skipped?
i don't think this differs from state to state but i'm not sure. i have heard of people who take written documents (like contracts) stating that they know the risks and are refusing all hospital vaxxes but i didn't take anything w/ me and i didn't have a problem. i just told all the L&D nurses (admittedly several times) that i didn't want DD to have her Hep B or Vitamin K shots. at some point someone made me sign a paper which stated that i was refusing all recommended vaccinations. i could have refused having her bathed as well which i didn't know at the time. i have no clue about the PKU tests.

[littlebear]

Is it possible to have a hospital birth and tell the attending Ped that you want to "delay" all newborn vaxes?
I don't think it should be a big deal. My ped didn't service the hospital where I delivered, and she prefers to do all of the vaxes within her practice. I just let the hospital know that I did not want any vaxes done while my infant was in the hospital and that my ped would be dealing with the issue. We didn't have the heel stick (PKU) at the hospital either because the state where I live does more newborn screening than the state where I gave birth so I just waited to have my ped do the heel stick at our first visit. There is an option of doing a urine test for PKU for infants over 6 weeks, but I'm not sure if it screens for other conditions as well. Also most states have have laws that require a PKU test for newborns within a few days after birth.

[kmack]

from the first link that littlebear posted:

However, infants lack the memory cells trained to defend against specific diseases. Because of this, they are particularly susceptible to diseases such as diphtheria, whooping cough, polio, tetanus, hepatitis B, and Hib. This is an important reason why the recommended childhood vaccination schedule begins so early – to prevent the diseases that children are susceptible to at such a young age.

again, i do not understand why my newborn would be particulary susceptible to hepatitis B, a disease spread by sexual contact or IV drug use. or is there another way she could catch it?

catgirl i seem to remember them asking me about five times if i wanted to get the hep b vax in the hospital. i hadn't researched anything prior to that so i just did it, but it seemed to me that they would have been fine with it if i had said no. and it wasn't my ped who did it, but one from the same practice.

[Toonces]

Thank you NYN and littlebear (and kmack - cross post:))!

I didn't know about the no bath option with my DD either. This time I'm putting it in my birth plan. I'll put the vax info in there, too.

[VoiceOfReason]

NYN,
Oh, I just saw your post about refusing Vit K. Please...anyone else reading this post...Lack of Vit K has caused MANY bleeding problems in natural-birth situations. A recent case in PA (unfortunately I was peripherally involved with this) where vit K was not given during a home birth resulted in a intracranial hemorrhage and an investigation that removed "5" other children temporarily from the home to rule-out shaken-baby syndrome. The family was "cleared", but the child was still deceased. Please, there is no crontroversy here... Allow the hospital/nurse midwife to administer vit K. Vit K is NOT related to any of the other vaccine-related problems mentioned in this, or any other thread/website!

[mommydearest]

from the first link that littlebear posted:



again, i do not understand why my newborn would be particulary susceptible to hepatitis B, a disease spread by sexual contact or IV drug use. or is there another way she could catch it?


It could also be caught through blood. Hepatitis can be dormant on a table for up to 10 years. It is very difficult to kill. Also, there could be kids at your daycare/preschool down the road that have it. They do not legally have to tell you that a kid in the school has it. So, you'd have no idea if your kid was at risk.

I had a student get Hepatitis A this past year and almost die. So, vaxing kids is really important to me. The reason why very few people die from these diseases is that most are vaccinated. Measles and rubella were almost wiped out in this country and now its back on the rise because people didn't vax their kids. You never know what the other children in your kid's school ( or church/gym/little league, etc) have been exposed to from parents that travel abroad, even if their kids don't, and then the kid exposes your kid to it.

Also, just so you know, in my 8th grade classes , I have had two students last school year have babies. So don't think that middle school kids don't have sex. Both were "good kids" who got good grades and came from good families. But that didn't keep it from happening. I'm sure the last thing on the girls' minds were STDs.

[lml41981]

I didn't know about the no bath option with my DD either.
Yeah, I put in my birth plan that she wasn't to be bathed until I was asleep. Until I allowed her to be bathed, the nurses wore latex gloves to touch her. One nurse tried to make me feel bad about it. She made a huge production over getting the gloves and putting them on and said, "I have to wear these because she hasn't had a bath," as if DD were disease-laden. :rolleyes:

Next time, however, we think we will spring for the big suite and bathe future-DC ourselves. I'd rather future-DC not sit alone under a warming lamp when s/he can get skin-to-skin with me.

[alisong]

Hep B - it's definitely possible to catch it via non-sexual/IV drug use routes. There have been cases of families catching it from children adopted from Asia, and, in developing countries, the most common ways it's spread between children are activities like scratching another kid's back, sharing a towel, and sharing a toothbrush. That's why I say I'd have my DS get it if he was in daycare - I can't imagine even the most scrupulously clean daycare could prevent similar contact between children. Hep B is actually a very infectious virus, as blood-borne viruses go (far more infectious than, say, HIV).

Catgirl - Why would you not want the PKU test performed? Is it just that you don't want a heel stick? Also, we refused all vaccinations at birth, and it was not a problem at all. We were asked once, and that was it.

[Kanga]

Vit K shot - I still have lots more research to do on this. From what I've read so far, we will not be getting it unless it is a tramatic birth (forceps, vacuum, etc) but I will admit I may change my mind after researching it fully. The purpose of the shot is to prevent excess bleeding, but if my dc is a boy he will not be circ'd so if the birth is not tramatic I don't see how my dc could have bleeding problems. Vitamin K is not easily passed through the placenta, but is easily passed through breastmilk so if you are breastfeeding, you can eat foods rich in vit k (dark green leafy veggies) or alfalfa tablets. Also, by prematurely cutting the cord it deprives a newborn of 25% to 40% of the physiological blood volume, and thus 25% to 40% of the physiological clotting factors that nature intended to be present in the newborn's blood. I'd much rather go this route than welcome my dc into the world with a shot. There have also been suspicions about it linked to jaundice and childhood cancer. cancer (http://www.babyreference.com/VitaminKinjectORnot.htm) I don't understand how all babies can be 'deficient' and there is probably a reason nature intended it to be that way.

We are also refusing the eye goop and I need to look into the PKU, although I don't think I will have any objections because it's a heel prick.

About the only reason that anyone can even consider to "not immunize" their child is because the vaccines exist and have been used.


This isn't true. Most people who do not vaccinate and do their research rather than just follow whatever the trend happens to be DO NOT refuse vax based on 'herd immunity' for all the reasons HGMorgan said and then some. Everybody on planet earth can stop vaccinating, and I still will not be afraid of the diseases. Put her in a room full of children with polio, and I'm still not afraid. I just don't see anything to be afraid of it when it comes to the diseases

To add to HGMorgan's list

Polio - Vast majority (90-95/99%, depending on who you ask) do not show symptoms. At all. 1/1000 infected cases are paralytic. In order to know you are infected, you would have to have symptoms, so 1/1000 is of that 1-10% who do show symptoms

Hep A - Very benign if developed in childhood. About 30% of americans are immune and never knew they ever had it.

Tetanus - I don't believe the vax works. When checking titers, tetanus can not be found. Checking titers checks the level of antibodies in the system, so i don't understand how one can be immune without any antibodies. It's also not a disease of the young and healthy, it's a disease of people with poor circulation. Should my child somehow be able to get it, there is immuneglobulin (which is a tetanus anti toxin) you can get instead.

Also, NOBODY knows how to treat adverse reactions, but they do know how to treat the diseases. The CDC also states you are more likely to get an adverse reaction that a complication from any one disease.

Is it possible to have a hospital birth and tell the attending Ped that you want to "delay" all newborn vaxes?

Look up your state's laws...for some you must give advanced notice that you do not want it, so I assume that means if you say nothing they assume you want it. I think your best bet would be to say we would prefer our own ped do all routine medical treatments, and whether you get them later from your ped or not is your business. They may hassle you a little bit, but generally I haven't heard it happen a whole lot.

Those who are objecting the bath, what reasons do you have? Is it just because you'd rather do it yourself, and want to wait a little while so you have time to bond?

The reason why very few people die from these diseases is that most are vaccinated.

And that there's better sanitation, refiegeration, diet, diagnoses, and treatment. I just don't buy the whole "vax make everything better" statement. Sure they keep it down for awhile, but at what cost?

Also, just so you know, in my 8th grade classes , I have had two students last school year have babies. So don't think that middle school kids don't have sex. Both were "good kids" who got good grades and came from good families. But that didn't keep it from happening. I'm sure the last thing on the girls' minds were STDs.

I know all too well how young kids are sexually active. Hep B is only one of who knows how many STD's, and it will be her decision if she'd like the vax. I don't feel it's a decision I should make for her. Similar to piercing her ears, if she wants it done, fine, but I'm not about to make the decision for her.

IMO, there is also no strong scientific evidence showing causal links or even strong associations between vaxes and a variety of the purported illnesses that vaxes 'cause' while there is strong evidence in favor of the benefits of vaccination.

I don't trust the CDC or the FDA. Both have major financial ties to Big Pharma. 2 of the top guys at the FDA who decide if the drugs are safe are reps for Big Pharma. I posted a link earlier on that. The CDC twists facts and you have to read between the lines on a lot of stuff.

[Toonces]

She made a huge production over getting the gloves and putting them on and said, "I have to wear these because she hasn't had a bath," as if DD were disease-laden. :rolleyes:

:eek: Our reason behind the delayed bath is they've been swimming around in amniotic fluid for 10 months. It doesn't hurt them to have it on them a little longer. Plus the vernix helps to condition their skin. After DD was born I saw her for maybe 5-10 minutes then they take her away to bathe her. I kept asking for her and didn't get her back for 2.5 hours. I was really PO'd esp since I wanted to start BFing right away.

Catgirl - Why would you not want the PKU test performed? Is it just that you don't want a heel stick? Also, we refused all vaccinations at birth, and it was not a problem at all. We were asked once, and that was it.

Yep, and that I don't think it's a very common illness. I believe 1 in 10,000 children are DX'd with PKU. I will talk with my Ped in October though and if he feels strongly about it, then we will do it. He's more of a holistic "crunchy" doctor so I do trust his opinion. My poor little DD was poked so many times after I had her and I'm still mad at myself for not being more educated. We had a different Ped with her, until she was 3 months old and her original Ped kept insisting that allergens couldn't pass through breastmilk. :rolleyes:

Also, just so you know, in my 8th grade classes , I have had two students last school year have babies.

:eek:

We are also refusing the eye goop

Kanga ~ I've been thinking about this also and want to research it. Do you know what it's even for?? I mentioned it to my mom and she said that it prevents infection that can cause blindness, BUT 99.9% of the time I don't listen to my mom b/c she's usually misinformed and is very "old school".

[Marisa]

catgirl -- in my experience the PKU screening actually also screens for a whole variety of conditions, one of which is galactosemia. My dentist's three boys all have it and of course he's a great advocate for the test -- this is the condition where baby is truly lactose intolerant and needs to be given the predigested formula.

You may be able to get them to administer right there so you can nurse her right away - I don't know if it's done right after birth; I think it's 24 hours after they're born.

The eye goop is for bacteria in general, most specifically gonorrhea, which the baby would be exposed to from the mother. It's up to you whether you feel the risk outweighs the prophylactic; I personally feel it's a bit of a holdover from another time.

[Toonces]

Thanks, Marisa! That's good to know about the PKU and if I can BF immediately after, that would make me feel a lot better that I'd be able to calm him down.

[Kanga]

The antibiotic eye ointment started after a war (vietnam i believe) when soldiers brought home something 'extra' (STD's) for their wives and babies were affected after passing through the birth canal. So if you don't have an STD, your baby can not be infected.

Here is a link (http://www.nccn.net/~wwithin/polio.htm#randall) on why I don't trust the gov't. It's about how the criteria for polio changed in 1955, the same year the Salk vaccine was introduced, and also about the contamination of teh SV40 vaccine.

[kmack]

back to the mmr being a live virus...does this mean there is a risk of passing it to a pregnant mom, or a newborn baby that is in the house when a child is vaccinated? or does it not work like CP?

[NYN]

vitamin k: i did not opt for vitamin k based on several factors which could be summed up like this:

1. i do not believe in injecting anything into the body of a baby who is less than 24 hours old unless it is medically necessary.
2. the risk of my healthy newborn (who was not going to undergo any surgical procedure at any point soon) having vitamin k deficiency bleeding was way, way, way low. i don't have exact numbers now but i did research it at the time and i felt that the risk was minimal.
3. a study in the early 90s linked kids who had been given vitamin k shots at birth with higher incidences of childhood lukemia. having had a friend die of a childhood cancer, i felt that i didn't want to take that risk.

had my birth been different i would have reconsidered it but i didn't feel that it was necessary at the time. i totally understand that fear that comes w/ seeing a baby die and feeling the need to make blanket recommendations for the rest of the population. my brother died within 48 hours of his DTP vax (not given anymore) so i lean in the opposite direction as you. i also feel that for the majority of the population, vitamin K shots are necessary b/c i can't imagine that everyone is researching this to a large degree.

though i feel confident in my decision i agree that i would not recommend it for everyone.

hep b: i gave DD the hep b vax b/c i thought she was starting daycare at the time. had i known she wouldn't start daycare until 13 months i would have held off longer but being in a daycare setting i felt that it was necessary. also i have an aunt who has hep b...she got it through maternal contact as she is from an eastern european country where most people have it. her son does not have it but being that my daughter is always in that house i felt that there was enough of a risk to give her the vax.

MMR: kmack, i believe that kanga said (maybe in the previous thread?) that b/c it is a live virus that it has a "shedding" period and it could potentially be "caught" by someone who is unvaccinated.

[Sevilla]

PKU: In my state it tests for about 20 different diseases and I believe it's a very important screening.

[Delta]

There is only one vax given at birth - the Hep B. We won't be doing it then for reasons stated here.

While I'm not a fan of all the manhandling of babies that goes on in hospitals the first 24 hours of their birth (we won't be doing the eye goop, vitamin K, hep B, etc.), I do think the heel prick (aka PKU) is a very important screening tool. It is a heel prick, but there is nothing being put into the baby. What it does do is screen for many different diseases (depending on the state) that while rare, can be better rectified the younger the child. I truly don't see how it is detrimental to the baby in any way, except for the pain of the prick. To me, that is a small price to pay for the knowledge it can give you.

I have a good friend whose son has a disease that can be detected via newborn screening. His was not picked up on until he was about 15-18 months and he became symptomatic. Kids with this disease have a much better chance at a more normal life the younger it is caught. My friend (who is also a pretty non-intervention mom) is a big proponent of the screening. NY state just passed a bill that will make screening for this disease (and many others) standard. This is a good thing. It's always up to the parents of course, but this is one intervention I can get behind.

[mel7dog]

Ok just jumping in here although I have read most of the thread. DS is 4 months and we have vaxed on schedule so far, though now I am trying to learn about everything so I am now just blindly vaxing. That being said, we are going on vacation out of the country in Jan (DS will be 9 month) and are also military so we'll most likely live out of the country and travel a great deal in the next 3-4 years. DH is saying this is why it is important for us to vax, is this true, I'm a bit confused :confused:

[VoiceOfReason]

A little background on me... Have a 2.5 y/o dd and a new baby due soon. I have been looking up info to stay "ahead of the curve". It sounds like a lot of you have had a very different relationship with the hospital/peds than we did. We were allowed to basically "opt-out" of anything we wanted. We were allowed to bathe dd instead of the nurses several hours after birth, and she was allowed to nurse at least 2 times within the 1st hour.
Baby #2 is coming, and we expect the same arrangement, even though this is a different hospital/OB/peds. Just lay it all out in your "birthing plan" and correct issues as they come up. Communicate with the nursing staff/doctors and don't be afraid to ask them to explain what and why they do what they do- before they do it! (ask nicely...it's amazing how that comes back to you!)
My even joining this thread is from my dissapproval of the perpetuation of misinformation on the "internet". As is evidenced by the number of "hits" this thread gets, a lot of educated (and uneducated) people are obviously eager to find out all they can before making decisions.
Issues:
No vaccine is only tested on 100 children and then approved. That may have been a quote from a book- but a book is a distillation of material that is then paraphrased. Go look at the studies as they originally were published.
The original study that linked MMR to Autism was reviewed by the author of the study after all the data was collected, and he published a corrected/updated review of his study stating that there was no evidence that there was a link between the two.
"Conspiracy Theory" that the FDA and CDC studies are not to be trusted because of the link of Gov't directors and big pharmacy companies. Hmmm, I have participated in numerous different studies. The amount of money it takes to implement a "placebo-controlled, double blind, randomized" study (and, actually, there are no other types of studies that collect unbiased results with any "power"- this is a biostatistical number to rate how the results of a study can claim to have found the results they do, without it being due to chance) is incredible. Probably millions of dollars in this economy. There just aren't any individuals with that kind of money willing to spend it on studies. So, the only way serious studies get done is with the Gov't having its hand in there somewhere. That is just fact. Now, you can decide if you distrust scientists enough to believe that they would falsify studies. Remember... there have been a LOT of studies in a number of different countries that have come to the same conclusion- there is no proven link between childhood immunizations and Autism. SO you are not just afriad that our Gov't is making scientists lie about their work, but so is every other Gov't making every scientist in every country lie about their work. I just don't see that happening.

Please try not to misinterpret my comment on "the reason anyone can even not immunize their child is because the vaccines exist" What I meant is that the diseases are so rare, that of course it is easy for you to say you don't feel the risk is great enough to warrant a vaccine. When thousands of children were dying each year (especially in low-income areas with poorer access to medical care) with Hib meningitis, the vaccine was considered a miracle. It kinda has been a miracle.

Anyway, that is my (long-winded) reason for joining this thread. Be careful what you read. If you see that someone read in a book that vaccines are incorporated into your child's schedule after being injected in only 100 kids- Don't tell 15 others without checking the facts!

[Rico'sAlice]

You may be able to get them to administer right there so you can nurse her right away - I don't know if it's done right after birth; I think it's 24 hours after they're born.


Thanks, Marisa! That's good to know about the PKU and if I can BF immediately after, that would make me feel a lot better that I'd be able to calm him down.




Although most hospitals do have you do the PKU test in the first couple days, before you leave the hospital- it is pretty much worthless at that point. You need to wait until your milk comes in and the child has BFed. (Although colostrum is a miracle food of utmost importance to the babies health it doesn't count for this situation) Basically they can't really tell if the child is digesting XYZ wrong until after the digestive system gets a go. And the screening does test for a number of other metabolic disorders, not just PKU.

http://www.webmd.com/hw/raising_a_family/hw41965.asp
The baby should be drinking breast milk or formula for at least 24 hours before the blood sample is taken. PKU test results are more likely to be accurate if the blood sample is taken after the baby has been on a milk diet for at least 48 hours.



FWIW, I'm *planning* U/C home birth, and will have no HepB, no antibiotic eye goop, no Vit K. [With all three I have decided the risks are greater from getting them administered than not. If I knew that I had an STD I might re-research the eye goop.] However, I still plan to have the midwife come over about a week after the birth and do the PKU stuff. I think it is very unlikely that anything will come of it, but to me the side effects (ie small, temporary pain only) seem very low compared to the potential risks. And if you find the right caregiver or are assertive enough, you can nurse DURING the blood draw.

[Kanga]

MMR: kmack, i believe that kanga said (maybe in the previous thread?) that b/c it is a live virus that it has a "shedding" period and it could potentially be "caught" by someone who is unvaccinated.


I don't think it's too common (because the viruses are weakened) if there aren't any symptoms, but it is possible. The CDC doesn't flat out say it, but they do admit teh former version of the polio vaccine (OPV) which was a live virus can give people polio - and has been proven so. They also admit flu mist (the nasal spray vaccine for influenza) can give you the flu (also a live virus) If you can get polio from a live vaccination of polio, and can get the flu from that live vaccine, it only makes sense that you can get MMR or CP from those vaxes.

DH is saying this is why [traveling] it is important for us to vax, is this true, I'm a bit confused

FTR - MMR and CP are normal childhood diseases and nothing to be feared. People only started fearing them after vaxes were developed - like with HPV. WC (whooping cough/pertussis) can be a little more serious but if watched to make sure complications don't develop, keeping the child well rested with plenty of vit C to boost the immune system and is not in a baby under 6mo (the vax doesn't give immunity until 6mo anyways) then it usually does no harm. WC is often misdiagnosed as bronchitis, asthma or various other things because people just don't think it's as common as it is and only half of the people with it have the 'whoop' (lab tests can be done to determine if it's WC or something else). It also spikes every 7 years, and continues to do so after the vaccine was developed. Polio, diptheria and rotovirus are not airborne viruses (well diptheria is a bacteria, but anyways). They can only be caught by drinking water that is contaminated with infected feces or oral contact with feces. Tetanus is not contagious. Hep A is not a problem unless developed in adulthood. Most infections are asymptomatic. Hep B is an STD, and although it is possible to be transmitted by saliva, it's not likely. Which ones am I forgetting? So if are religious with hand washing before eating/preparing food and after using the restroom then there really isn't anything to worry about. The only thing that would be cause for concern would be unsanitary living conditions, unclean water, or poor diet which I assume you wouldn't expose your child to regardless of vax status.

[prudies]

Polio - Vast majority (90-95/99%, depending on who you ask) do not show symptoms. At all. 1/1000 infected cases are paralytic. In order to know you are infected, you would have to have symptoms, so 1/1000 is of that 1-10% who do show symptoms

I find it shocking anyone can be nonchalant about polio. I know people from other countries that didn't have the polio vaccine when they were growing up who are partially parylized. It's just terrifying to look at pictures and hear the stories of people affected by polio in this country who grew up before the vaccine. Kids were shipped off to hospitals. That's not scary?

[Toonces]

I find it shocking anyone can be nonchalant about polio. I know people from other countries that didn't have the polio vaccine when they were growing up who are partially parylized. It's just terrifying to look at pictures and hear the stories of people affected by polio in this country who grew up before the vaccine. Kids were shipped off to hospitals. That's not scary?

The risk of obtaining paralytic Polio is .1%-2% (stats here (http://www.kidshealth.org/parent/infections/bacterial_viral/polio.html)). The inactive Polio vax contains, among other ingredients, formaldehyde, aborted fetal tissue (known as MRC-5), several antibiotic agents, 2-Phenoxyethanol (http://www.vaccinetruth.org/2-phenoxyethanol.htm) (a preservative).

For our family, we'd rather risk the minute chance that there would be a Polio outbreak w/ even then there being a significantly small chance that it's paralytic, than inject our children with aborted fetal tissue, formaldehyde and a preservative, among other things. I think everyone should weigh the risks of catching the disease vs. the ingredients and potential side effects of a vax. We aren't making decisions nonchalantly, but gathering facts and weighing risks.

ETA: I hope my reply didn't sound snotty - it's not meant to be. Just why we've decided to skip this particular vax.

[dana b]

i agree w/ delta. i think the pku test is very important. we even do additional newborn screening to cover the stuff that they don't test for with the pku heel prick. i was even telling my bil (a dr.) about the additional screening before his son was born, they didn't end up doing it and it turns out that his son was born with a dangerous metabolic disorder. he was in the hospital for months before they found out what was wrong with him and for a time there they didn't think he was going to make it.

rico's alice that's interesting about waiting to do the pku. we normally just bring the packet for additional screening to the hospital with us, but now i'm going to ask our ped if we should do it when he comes in for his 2 day checkup (assuming that my milk will be in within 24 hrs like last time).

eye goop we did it last time b/c i was gbs+ -- not sure if that's a valid reason to do it, but i didn't have much of a problem with it anyways.

[ThreeYell]

FTR - MMR and CP are normal childhood diseases and nothing to be feared.

You can say (thought I don't agree) that you don't think that these diseases are anything to be feared for your child living in America with access to top-quality nutrition, sanitation and medical care. But please don't say that something like measles that, according to the WHO and UNICEF, kills nearly half a million children each year, is nothing to be feared. Vaccines can and do save millions of lives in the developing world and we are all very lucky that our children are so healthy that we have can debates and discussions about the risks/benefits of any given vax.

[jbemommy]

The risk of obtaining paralytic Polio is .1%-2% (stats here (http://www.kidshealth.org/parent/infections/bacterial_viral/polio.html)). The inactive Polio vax contains, among other ingredients, formaldehyde, aborted fetal tissue (known as MRC-5), several antibiotic agents, 2-Phenoxyethanol (http://www.vaccinetruth.org/2-phenoxyethanol.htm) (a preservative).

For our family, we'd rather risk the minute chance that there would be a Polio outbreak w/ even then there being a significantly small chance that it's paralytic, than inject our children with aborted fetal tissue, formaldehyde and a preservative, among other things. I think everyone should weigh the risks of catching the disease vs. the ingredients and potential side effects of a vax. We aren't making decisions nonchalantly, but gathering facts and weighing risks.

ETA: I hope my reply didn't sound snotty - it's not meant to be. Just why we've decided to skip this particular vax.

I just want to restate a point that I believe was made earlier--the reason the risk of getting polio or any of these diseases is so low here in the US is *because* so many children are vaccinated. They were rampant beforehand and mothers were terrified their children were going to be paralyzed by polio and damaged by other diseases like measles, etc. Speaking to older pediatricians who practiced before the HiB vaccine came out, they had to do spinal taps on a very regular basis (like weekly) for babies with meningitis. Now it's a rare occurance. And I'm sorry, but HiB meningitis is a serious disease, and leaves children blind, deaf, or with learning disabilities.
So those of us in the US can feel like these diseases don't happen anymore, but the truth is in other countries where immunization rates are much lower or nonexistent, they do exist. In this day of immigration, who knows what someone coming from another country is going to transmit to your child--we worry about avian flu, why not these diseases also?

[prudies]

catgirl - I don't think you've made your decision lightly. But I think kanga's comment made polio sound like the common cold. I also agree with jbemommy that the risk is low because of the vaccine.

[Toonces]

jbemommy & prudies ~ That's a valid point. I know that diseases that we don't have in the US anymore, that have been erradicated due to vaxes, are rampant in other parts of the world. What scares me though is the cr*p they put in these vaxes. I don't know if my child will be the one who has a reaction that causes autism, cancer, or death and I'm terrified to take that chance. Also, many of these vaxes provide protection for a few years to 10 years. So let's say I vax my 2 year old, but 4 years from now the Polio vax isn't protecting her anymore. I know there's a booster for Polio, but what happens after that wears off? All of us, as adults, are at risk and we were given the oral polio vax (before 1979). I still think it's a matter of weighing the risks of actually contracting the disease to the harmful substances they put in the vax, taking into consideration none of them protect for a lifetime.

[Rico'sAlice]

RE: Polio,
I'm not sure I how to make the wording clearer. I think the place we're crossing wires on Polio is that the paralysis is .1-2% of infected cases, not risk total. We're not even talking about the chance of "catching" polio in the US. So, the use of the vax is not a factor.

Like catgirl said, even if there was an outbreak and everyone in my town tested positive for polio infection chances (95%) are that my child will have no symptoms at all. If they do have symptoms they are most likely to be mild flulike symptoms.

[jbemommy]

RE: Polio,
I'm not sure I how to make the wording clearer. I think the place we're crossing wires on Polio is that the paralysis is .1-2% of infected cases, not risk total. We're not even talking about the chance of "catching" polio in the US. So, the use of the vax is not a factor.

Like catgirl said, even if there was an outbreak and everyone in my town tested positive for polio infection chances (95%) are that my child will have no symptoms at all. If they do have symptoms they are most likely to be mild flulike symptoms.

So I guess it was just mass hysteria in the 50's that made everyone take their kids to the ocean in the summer so they weren't in the cities where they might catch polio? Those mothers weren't saying, "Oh, well, the risk of being paralyzed is really small", they were saying as I would, "I'm not taking that chance for my child."

[gizzyntaz]

eyegoop unfortunately my midwife said it was required by state law. I'm not pregnant, so I haven't done any further research, but I don't think that is true. I was trying to have a birth center birth though, and they can hold you as hostage to their rules as a hospital can, though. That was one of them.

We vax. DH couldn't be convinced not to, and I didn't have enough evidence not to. I still don't. Though, I declined the new Hep A vaccine that they are recommending.

PKUWe had an excruciating experience with this as DS was being discharged from the NICU. It involved AT LEAST 15 minutes of torturous screaming on his part, crying, moaning and breast leakage on my part. When we went for his 2 week and had to repeat the test it was a different experience. They warmed his foot with a warmer for over a minute, held him upright (to help blood flow) and I held him (and immediately nursed afterward) during the procedure. It was so much easier on everyone. My recommendation is to INSIST that they warm their foot first and hold them upright while administering the heel prick(s).

[Toonces]

Polio vax ~ I don't want this thread to get shut down b/c it turns into a heated debate. I think we've all made our points about why we have decided to skip or get this vax. I'm not here to convince anyone not to vax their kids, only to state why we have decided to skip or delay certain vaxes. To each her own.

[Rico'sAlice]

When thousands of children were dying each year (especially in low-income areas with poorer access to medical care) with Hib meningitis, the vaccine was considered a miracle. It kinda has been a miracle.


Speaking to older pediatricians who practiced before the HiB vaccine came out, they had to do spinal taps on a very regular basis (like weekly) for babies with meningitis. Now it's a rare occurance. And I'm sorry, but HiB meningitis is a serious disease, and leaves children blind, deaf, or with learning disabilities.

Where are you getting these numbers?

HiB was not nationally notifiable prior to 1991. Here are the actual numbers of cases reported nationally:
1991 (2,764)
1992 (1,412)
1993 (1,419) Hib placed on childhood schedule, resulting in universal immunization and state-by-state mandates for entry to daycare/school
1994 (1,174)
1995 (1,180)
1996 (1,170)
1997 (1,162)
1998 (1,194)
1999 (1,309)
2000 (1,398)
2001 (1,597)
2002 (1,743)
2003 (2,013)

In 1991, the CDC reported 2,764 cases of HI with 17 deaths. Comparatively, in 2003, the CDC reported 2,013 cases of HI with 5 deaths.
What percentage of these cases was in infants/children vs. what percentage in the elderly?


CDC estimates from the early 80’s were in the thousands for cases- not deaths. And these were for ALL serotypes. Hib vaccine was first licensed in ’85- but was not for infants at that point and not put into the regular schedule until the early 90’s. The rates were already dropping and would have continued to w/o the vax, non-B serotypes of H. influenzae for which there is NO VAX has followed the same drop in prevalence between the eighties and the early 90’s.

However, H. influenzae type A has been increasing since the Hib vax went into widespread use. What role does H. influenzae type B play in a normal healthy system? What happens when it is gone?
And how does the use of the Hib vax affect rates of pneumococcal infection?

BTW- What happened to the ’85 vax. Where did it go and why?

------
And while breastfeeding rates are not high enough for this to be a serious factor in the big picture, when you are making decisions for your own children it is something to add into the equation- References re: breastfeeding and haemophilus influenza
http://www.vaccinationnews.com/DailyNews/May2001/Breastfeeding.htm

[HollyMN]

I think the place we're crossing wires on Polio is that the paralysis is .1-2% of infected cases, not risk total. ...

even if there was an outbreak and everyone in my town tested positive for polio infection chances (95%) are that my child will have no symptoms at all.

Even so. I have never bought a lottery ticket, but if you gave me those odds, I'd be heading down to the nearest corner store.

[lml41981]

And here is where I step out of this thread. How about you all raise your kids the way you see it best for your family and circumstances and we'll raise our kids the way we see it best for our families and circumstances.

[Delta]

I really don't see the need for defensiveness in this thread. :confused: For the most part I think it's been pretty informative and interesting and I don't think anyone is attacking anyone else's choices but merely stating their own. JMO though.

[AmyE]

Cool thread, Kanga. And lots of interesting info. One request for the moderator - could you update the polio section at the beginning? Wild polio was wiped out in the US in 1979, but in the W. Hemisphere in 1996. And it's only wild polio that we haven't found - there have been recent polio cases reported (Oral vaccine related, as you point out!) Also, since you are quite correctly gathering fact for folks to sort through - getting a disease does not in fact provide life-long immunity - you can and people do get chicken pox twice, for example.

Anyway, just wanted to add my two cents as someone who is strongly pro-vax. As some pps have pointed out, there is tons of research on both sides of the debate. I personally have more faith in the research that says the risks for the vaccines are really low. Basically, after doing a lot of research, I decided to fully vaccinate on schedule because I thought the (low) risk of catching the worst symptoms of the disease were actually higher than the (low) risk of vaccine side effects. SO, yes, mumps is generally no big deal, but there are risks, for example that DS could become sterile, so we got the MMR.

Others will of course do the research and come to a different conclusion - each parent does his/her very best, I think. It gets tough.

DS is 16 months and I'm pg with twins. I have to say that right now, I sorta try to find out if the kids my DS is playing with are vaccinated or not. It might sound really harsh, but I really don't want unvaccinated kids around my newborns until they are fully vaccinated themselves. (And I'm a BF fanatic, and will BF the twins.)

[NYN]

i wish people would stop getting so defensive. i vaccinated my DD against polio. Rico'sAlice didn't pin me down and tell me what a bad mother i am. no one here is doing anything other than sharing information. it has been interesting to me to read both sides. PLEASE don't get this thread closed.

but I really don't want unvaccinated kids around my newborns until they are fully vaccinated themselves.
i can understand this and would probably be cautious w/ a newborn too but what will you do about kids who are vaccinated but haven't been vaccinated yet? for example, will you make sure no 11-month-old doesn't go near your newborns until after he turns a year and has his CP and MMR vaxxes?

[Phen]

We have vaccinated our boys on schedule, everything except chicken pox, which we delayed for two months until it could be given when I wasn't on chemo. The ped wouldn't give the boys the chicken pox vax when I was doing chemo because it's a live virus vax and it could jeopardize my lowered immune system.

We vax mostly because of the public health issues, and because one of our boys had a heart condition at birth.

I found a lot of good information in this podcast (http://media.libsyn.com/media/manicmommies/MM-12.mp3).

~ phen

[summer girl]

I was just wondering if you are asked about the vitamin K shot before they give it to your NB. I never heard about it until I started reading this thread. If my DC were given it, would they have asked my permission or is it just an automatic shot given at birth like the eye goop? Which I am a little confused about as well. I am almost 100% positive my first DC didn't receive the eye goop because I remember thinking they must not do that anymore, but my DS, born in a different state was given the eye goop. I was not asked about it though.

[ginadc]

Like catgirl said, even if there was an outbreak and everyone in my town tested positive for polio infection chances (95%) are that my child will have no symptoms at all. If they do have symptoms they are most likely to be mild flulike symptoms.

I know this has been hashed out a bit already and I don't want to turn this thread into an argument either. But that's what the doctor told my father when he was first diagnosed with polio (he was unusual in that he got the disease at 21). "Let's hope it's a mild case."

It wasn't. He spent a year in a rehabilitation hospital learning to walk again with a brace on one leg. He went from an all-state high school athlete in practically every sport and an amazing dancer to a man who had to struggle to walk with that brace. One of the most visceral memories of my childhood is bedtime--hearing him come slowly up the stairs and then the clank of his brace hitting the floor as he got into bed. As the years went on he and my mom put a first-floor bedroom on the house because he couldn't take stairs anymore. He eventually had to use a cane with the brace; then a wheelchair more and more. Sometime in his 60s he developed what they call "post-polio syndrome," where progressive weakness sets in even in the "good" limb because of overuse of the muscles. He now uses the wheelchair almost all the time, and watching him hoist himself out of a chair to try and walk is absolutely agonizing. My DH says it's astounding that he's still walking at all.

Some people did, of course, have it easier. My kindergarten teacher wound up with only a slight limp. Then again, there were the ones who wound up almost totally paralyzed, the ones in iron lungs (believe it or not, there are still people in iron lungs today in the aftermath of polio cases from decades ago), and the ones who died. Yes, only about 1% of people who contract polio experience "paralytic polio"--but as someone else said, if I had a 1 in 100 chance of winning the lottery, I'd be happily playing, so a 1 in 100 chance is pretty significant, especially when you're talking about the chance of paralysis or death.

Everyone has the right to make individual decisions about vaccines for their own child/children, but I just wanted to provide a personal perspective on how devastating polio can be and how seriously it should be taken.

[Kanga]

I really don't see the need for defensiveness in this thread. For the most part I think it's been pretty informative and interesting and I don't think anyone is attacking anyone else's choices but merely stating their own. JMO though.

The thread is starting to carry a somewhat snarky-i-can't-believe-you-would-do-that-to-your-child-you're-misinformed tone which in a thread as emotional as this can get can get way out of hand and words not meant to be hurtful can be taken as so. So please be careful of your wording, re-read to make sure it doesn't sound snarky or demeaning in any way, shape, or form to see if it could be re-worded at all to be less sarcastic, defensive, what have you. If people keep to phrases such as "I'm interested in where you got that info - do you mind posting a link/reference, because at it states x" this thread has a much better chance of staying on track than using snarky defensiveness.

Polio - The facts have been stated. Whether the odds are good odds or bad odds are one's opinion. Unless you have new information that has not yet been posted or have a question about something, this is where we agree to disagree and take the topic elsewhere if people want to debate what kind of odds those are.

You can say (thought I don't agree) that you don't think that these diseases are anything to be feared for your child living in America with access to top-quality nutrition, sanitation and medical care. [regarding my comment

Right, that's what I meant...in a healthy child that is living in acceptable living conditions, they are normal childhood diseases IMO. Nobody used to blink an eye at CP, and although when MMR was common was before my time, i've been told by older relatives people reacted much the same as they used to react to CP. Now that there is a vaccine out, people are suddenly worried about a disease they never used to. (Much like HPV - a lot of people didn't even know it existed)

The four thousandth and 8 reason I don't vax -
Scarlet fever declined just as fast as the rest of them, and no vaccine was ever developed. I'm trying to find out if other diseases where no vax developed had a similar decline so if anybody knows or has links I'd appreciate it.

4,009 (And yes, I did count:p )
People in 3rd world countries do not have clean water, refrigeration, healthy diet, adequate medical, access to condoms (relative to STD's), or proper living conditions. It's no surprise to me that diseases are much more rampant. And becuase of the poverty, vax rates are much less in 3rd world countries than in the U.S., it's difficult to compare to the U.S.

Ok, I've got more detailed info on how they test for safety from the book Just a Little Prick by Hilary and Peter Butler. She has footnotes on just about every page of her book siting her sources, and I will print those here as well.

First, all vaccines are tested on animals for safety (also something I don't condone)

Flu vaccine is tested on chickens
OPV - monkeys
IPV - rats
Tetanus and hep B- guinea pigs
WC - mice

Mouse weight gain test for safety

Testing labratory staff inject vaccine into the abdomens of mice,, then weigh them regularly. If the mouse loses lots of weight, apparently teh vaccine is more likely to cause brain damage. (1)

The (1) should be little, but I don't know how to do that, so I put in paranthesis

This is a direct quote, but I didn't want to put in the quote box because some of the phrases are in italicies.


1. Corbel, M.J. et al 2004 "Toxicity and potency evaluation of pertussis vaccines". [I]Expert Rev. Vaccines 3(1): 89-101. PMID:14761246 It is stated that this test "correlates with adverse reactions" yet in the next breath they go on to say its "mechanism is unclear". (I can't work out how weight loss equals brain damage either, actually.) They also say it's not a useful procedure for acellular vaccines. /end quote

Kendrick test for effectiveness
Staff will use several groups of mice and inject into their brains different am'ts of whooping cough until they determine the exact am't that will kill exactly half the injected mice. Then they use 2 new groups of mice, 1 which is left alone, and the other that is injected with the vaccine. After a few weeks, the vaccinated mice get teh exact am't of bacteria that killed half the other mice into every mouse's brain in both groups. In the unvaccinated group presumably half the mice die. In the vaccinated, if fewer die than in the unvaccinated, then they assume the vaccine will work in babies.

The Kendrick test is supposed to "correlate with protection" or prove that the vaccine works. Proof that it doesn't work - vaccinated children and babies get whooping cough, and they keep raising the number of recommended/required doses every few years. The article says that the Kendrick test is inadequate. (2)

quote
2. Corbel, M.J. et al 2004. "Toxicity and potency evaluation of pertussis vaccines". Expert Rev. vaccines 3(1): 89-101. PMID: 14761246. "A better potency assay is needed."

This one, they say(3) "must be regarded as a priority for replacement"

3. Ibid p. 94 /end quote

Some mice must be infant of suckling mice, but most are adult mice which aren't susceptible to respiratory infections. There are also hardier breeds, or die in large numbers than others. Only one strain of WC-type bacteria work well in mice (strain 18-323) That strain is more closely related to Bordetalla brochoseptica than b-type. pertussis.


Babies will be rejected from the test group if it
-was born before 37 weeks gestation and weighed less than 2500 grams at birth
-needed resuscitation, received IV medication antibiotics for suspected infections, or might have any suspected medical, congenital, developmental, or surgical disease involving the immune system, central nervous system, congenital abnormalities, seizures, or multi-organ dysfunction that they can't see, but could be a possiblity
-Has any other health condition after being examined by dr.'s that is considered sufficient for the baby to be excluded

If a vaccine is determined "safe" for use on the general public, people are not told that if the mother or the baby has anyone of these conditions, that they should not recieve it.

Testing on humans

First phase is usually on adults. If they are considered to produce antibodies to the disease and side effects are not thought to be from the vaccine, then they go on to a couple hundred children and adolescents. Then approx 100 over 6mo, then apprpox 100 under 6mo. If all goes well, then the vaccine is pronounced "safe"
...the findings from these trials always include a 'no public disclosure' clause and the general public is not allowed to see the data gleaned from these trials.

Even the CDC or the FDA only gets to see the final filtered statistics.

Information I'm looking for
I'm trying to find a graph or chart on the number of adverse reactions for each vaccine. It's public info and I've seen it before so I know it's out there somewhere - if anybody has it please post it here. Also looking for links on how they test for vaccine safety.

AmyE - Thanks for catching that, I will update it as soon as I can. Do you have any links or know how many people get CP or other diseases more than once?

but I really don't want unvaccinated kids around my newborns until they are fully vaccinated themselves.

It's interesting you say that, because I do the same, but opposite with vaxed kids who have recently gotten their MMR or CP. What makes you think a vaxxed kid can't spread disease, or do you feel it's just more likely with the un vaxed kids? Also, you'll most likely have a hard time finding out which people don't vax their kids (assuming that you don't yet know but plan to find out). People admit it freely on websites because they don't actually "know" you, but IRL I'm much more discreet about it.

[Rico'sAlice]

I know this has been hashed out a bit already and I don't want to turn this thread into an argument either. But that's what the doctor told my father when he was first diagnosed with polio (he was unusual in that he got the disease at 21). "Let's hope it's a mild case."

I don't want to get into an argument either. I swear!
Just wanted to try to explain why my lack of worry is not the same as being nonchalant about the possible serious effects of Polio. I feel awful for your father (and any one else who went through that) And obviously no parent would ever want that to happen to their child. However, I guess maybe some difference is that I believe that I wouldn't have to *hope* for a mild case- but that I could take steps both before & after infection so that the outcome would be favorable.
I obviously do not have your father's case history in front of me, so I don't know all of his individual circumstances. I wouldn't presume to second-guess what they could've, should've done differently for him personally. But there were a lot of other factors in play during the polio epidemic of the last century beyond simply the polio virus, and the method of treatment for polio & paralysis that I view as best was not commonly used.


----
More generally- I am very much pro-informed. I think we all benefit from having the fullest picture possible.
Obviously I felt in the end that the evidence that I trust does not support vaccination (considering both risk of harm & efficacy of vaccine compared to risk of harm & prevalence of disease) And some diseases I really want my children to get and wish I had gotten them (both for general immune-system building, but also specifics for ex. measles infection correlates with lower risk of skin cancer)

I do understand that different people will put more/less credence in different studies, "experts," and explanations. So, some will trust certain numbers and findings that others ignore or discredit. But I think in the end, part of it comes down to just personality differences and what you are comfortable with. And while we all know that anecdotes do not statistical evidence make, we can't help but be influenced by what we've experienced first hand more strongly than what we've only read about.
In addition, vaxing is actually against my religious beliefs, so even if they made them safer, or more effective (according to my judgment) I still would not get them.


Where it really ends up for me is that I feel more confident in the body's ability to heal from natural attackers than unnatural ones. I believe that those who would be vulnerable to complications from mumps, the flu, etc. are the same population that are most likely to be vaccine injured. And while I feel there are things that can be done on an individual level to reduce the risk of harm from vax I think those measures are even more effective for preventing/healing from infection by the diseases there are vaccines for. And if it came down to it, I would feel more comfortable dying or having my child die from disease than dying from a vaccine. But I recognize that other intelligent, educated people can decide come to very different conclusions.
I am enjoying this thread and confident that we can continue to have a civilized discussion. :)

[I thought of a lot more examples but don't want to get the discussion off track debating the science behind them b/c I realize they are also controversial. They were along the lines that I'd rather die of West Nile than get cancer from insecticides; rather get lysteriosis from raw milk than slowly be poisoned by the pasteurized, homogenized stuff; rather have my dog choke on a bone than have them develop chronic conditions from eating kibble, that sort of thing. But life doesn't really come down to such black & white choices anyway.]

[littlebear]

I'm trying to find a graph or chart on the number of adverse reactions for each vaccine. It's public info and I've seen it before so I know it's out there somewhere - if anybody has it please post it here.

Not sure if this is what you want, but it's a report from 1991-2001 from VAERS that has multiple tables with listing of AEs by vax type, age group, type of AE, etc. It was published in MMWR.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/PDF/ss/ss5201.pdf

Here's info from the FDA about their approval process for vaccine testing.
http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/095_vacc.html
http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/vacappr.htm

[ginadc]

Just to clarify--it wasn't my grandfather, it was my father, who had polio.

And yes, I'm sure that were polio to return in any significant way in the US today, it would be medically managed far better than it was in the first half of this century, when we obviously didn't have many of the technological and scientific advantages we have now.

OTOH, with polio virtually unknown in the US now, I actually wonder how well such an event would be managed in the US today? Does anyone know how long it took to diagnose the last polio outbreak (a few Amish children in 1979, I believe) and how well their care was handled? I would venture to say that almost no physicians practicing today, except for those who have worked in areas overseas where polio has not been eradicated, have actually ever seen the disease. It might not be handled particularly well at all, especially in the early stages. (I know the management of the anthrax situation in DC after 9/11 was god-awful--a different thing entirely, and not something that is generally vaccinated for, but the point being that all our medical advances don't necessarily equal improved patient care when something unexpected hits us.)

[NYN]

if i'm not mistaken the last polio outbreak was after my daugther's birth in 2005 and it was actually a vaccine that caused it (OPV which isn't given anymore).

i agree that doctors today wouldn't be as well-equipped to handle erradicated diseases that's why i think it's really important to research both the disease and the vaccination (i know this had already been said multiple times in this thread ;)). if i choose not to vax against, say, the measles, i better be prepared. in other words, i won't be taking DD to the pediatrician and making sure she gets some antibiotics and tylenol as someone else said.

edited to clarify b/c i somehow got booted off in the middle of a post. :confused:

so if i decide not to vaccinate against something, i'm going to be able to state my reasons for denying that particular vaccine inside and out. likewise, it's important to inform myself about the disease and figure out what options are for treatment (including homeopathic options) rather than blindly trusting my pediatrician to know how to treat it.

[Rico'sAlice]

Just to clarify--it wasn't my grandfather, it was my father, who had polio.

Ooops. I am so sorry that I mixed that up. Will edit.

And yes, I'm sure that were polio to return in any significant way in the US today, it would be medically managed far better than it was in the first half of this century, when we obviously didn't have many of the technological and scientific advantages we have now.
OTOH, with polio virtually unknown in the US now, I actually wonder how well such an event would be managed in the US today? Does anyone know how long it took to diagnose the last polio outbreak (a few Amish children in 1979, I believe) and how well their care was handled?

But anyway, I am highly doubtful that the medical community would handle a new polio outbreak any better than they did the last one. I could imagine that they might even do worse in some ways. Hopefully we won't have to find out.

But I personally would not be turning to them for help anyway, and would rather rely on what has worked in the past w/Polio despite its not being put to use by the mainstream medical community. But again- that's what's right for me & my (future) family. I'm not talking about setting public policy.
[hope this is ok- not trying to debate about Polio infection rates, just explaining about my belief in ability to treat it]

[Well, I'm assuming the Amish children didn't get any care b/c my understanding is that they weren't sick.------Need to go recheck, I think I am getting different events mixed up------OK, I was confused. Am thinking of the 2005 thing.]

[Kanga]

Re: polio - To clarify I don't mind (and don't think anyone else does either) if you add to the polio discussion by presenting new information that has not yet been posted in this thread and is done so respectfully which is what the last few posts have done IMO.

[littlebear]

1. Plague
2. Erysipelas
3. Puerperal fever
4. Lepracy
5. Bubonic Plague
6. Antonine Plague
7. Scarlet fever (no vaccine and it is almost noninfectous)
8. Thyphoid fever (same)
10.Black Death

This was a list of diseases that were listed in the FACT section of the thread as having disappeared without the use of vaccines.

At this point in time, this list is not factual..

Plague (bubonic or otherwise still exists albeit in low numbers FYI Black Death is commonly thought to have been bubonic plague)-Yes. The World Health Organization reports 1,000 to 3,000 cases of plague worldwide every year. An average of 5 to 15 cases occur each year in the western United States. These cases are usually scattered and occur in rural to semi-rural areas. Most cases are of the bubonic form of the disease. Naturally occurring pneumonic plague is uncommon, although small outbreaks do occur. Both types of plague are readily controlled by standard public health response measures.

Scarlet fever definitely still exists. Typhoid fever is still predominant in third world countries and there is in fact a vaccine that is recommended for people traveling to countries with high risk of this.

Leprosy aka Hansen's Disease-In 2002, the number of new cases detected worldwide was 763,917. In 2002, 96 cases occurring in the United States were reported to CDC. In 2002, WHO listed Brazil, Madagascar, Mozambique, Tanzania, and Nepal as having 90% of cases.

[HollyMN]

Are people offended by my comment? :confused: I was responding to the "wires crossed" comment and tried to clarify with the lottery example of my interpretation of 0.1-2%. I meant no disrespect to any CC'er.

This thread is well-timed! I was looking in the fitness center today, and today is National Immunization Awareness Month! That, and this thread prompted me to check out DS's vaccinations for tomorrow, and consequently I'm not going to have him get the chickenpox vaccine he was scheduled for. I'm going to read about that and if I change my mind, we can vaccinate later. I had chickenpox as a child and it wasn't bad.

I'm an extended nurser, strong supporter of natural birth and MDC lurker, so I do have my crunchy card in some areas. But for vaccines, I just don't see any good reason not to. Like littlebear, the science that I trust supports vaccines.

ThreeYell - Now I'm curious - do you nurse after vaccinations through toddlerhood? We have a 12 month visit tomorrow, and I'm wondering whether to bring the boppy. I can't imagine not nursing him after a vaccination, but I suppose at some point the day will come. We nurse ~ 3 times/day now.

I know of one friend who's cousin got polio from the vaccine (in India). :( We both have babies at the same time now and of course he was asking about the vaccine - his cousin got the OPV one, so he was okay with allowing his daughter to get the IPV.

And if it came down to it, I would feel more comfortable dying or having my child die from disease than dying from a vaccine.

I don't share your religious views, but I agree with you on this. Directly administering the cause of death (vaccine) seems much harsher than indirectly allowing death to happen. Thankfully, death from vaccines is very rare.

[alisong]

First phase is usually on adults. If they are considered to produce antibodies to the disease and side effects are not thought to be from the vaccine, then they go on to a couple hundred children and adolescents. Then approx 100 over 6mo, then apprpox 100 under 6mo. If all goes well, then the vaccine is pronounced "safe".Okay, I just have to respond to this - it's absolutely false. This is from clinicaltrials.gov (http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct/info/whatis#whatis):

In Phase I trials, researchers test a experimental drug or treatment in a small group of people (20-80) for the first time to evaluate its safety, determine a safe dosage range, and identify side effects.

In Phase II trials, the experimental study drug or treatment is given to a larger group of people (100-300) to see if it is effective and to further evaluate its safety.

In Phase III trials, the experimental study drug or treatment is given to large groups of people (1,000-3,000) to confirm its effectiveness, monitor side effects, compare it to commonly used treatments, and collect information that will allow the experimental drug or treatment to be used safely.

In Phase IV trials, post marketing studies delineate additional information including the drug's risks, benefits, and optimal use.Not until a drug/device has completed Phase III trials can it be licensed. There simply isn't adequate power in a trial with 100 people to determine efficacy, espeically given that most vaccines developed today are for quite rare diseases. Your child will not get any vaccine tested on only 100 people unless he/she is receiving it as part of a clinical trial.

[ThreeYell]

HollyMN - I can't remember if Sam nursed after getting his 12 month shots, but definitely not after that. By 15 months, he was too busy to nurse anywhere but home. Also, his 15 month and 18 month vaxes didn't bother him at all. I don't think he cried for 30 seconds total either time.

Re: chickenpox. I was kind of on the fence about it but went ahead with it for a personal reason. I knew two people this winter whose infants got CP and ended up in the hopsital. I know you can't vax an infant but it did make me want Sam to be vaxed ASAP. I don't think it would be a big deal to get CP as a school age child (though I remember itching like crazy!) but I didn't want him to get it as a very young toddler.

[NYN]

holly: this is really off topic but do you use your boppy to nurse your DS all the time? just curious.

i always nurse after vaccinations but i am a big believer in comfort nursing and my DD still nurses way more than your DS does. your DS might not even want to nurse as ThreeYell said...it just depends on the kid. but if he asks for it i definitely would allow it.

[Kanga]

littlebear - can you post the link from where you got your quote so I can read through it and post it on the front page?

alisong - What I posted was a direct quote from a book who's author is on MDC - I'm going to pm her with the info you posted and she what she has to say and then let everyone know why the info does not match up, where she got hers from, and if it can be found on the internet.

[littlebear]

Sure. It's all CDC information so it's understood that some may not trust it, but that was my reference.
Plague information
http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/plague/faq.asp
Hansen's disease
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/hansens_t.htm
Typhoid fever
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/typhoidfever_g.htm
Scarlet fever
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/scarletfever_g.htm

[allyray231]

Not adding to the debate since I thought this thread was really helpful before it went crazy ;)

My mom works for the health department of NY and I talked to a women over there that specializes in immunizations. I asked her about the Hep A vaccine and this is what she told me (her words not mine)

The use of this vaccine has had 2 changes. One is to make it a routine vaccine for all children and the other is being able to use it in children 1yo and up.
This vaccine has been used routinely for all children in many states, especially in the western part of the US. They had very high rates of hep A and by protecting children, they found their rates drop significantly. When they looked at the rest of the country, where we only used it occasionally, they found Hep A still persisted. The decision was then to make it a universal recommendation so all families and communities would benefit by this protection.

The vaccine was also found to be effective in a younger age group, so they now recommend 2 doses, with a 6 month interval, be administered to all children after their first birthday.

The last benefit that I see is that we see families traveling internationally more than ever ( i.e. Caribbean, Mexico, cruises). This is the most common travel vaccine used.

[Kanga]

Slighty OT - Now that Katrina has been brought up by the media recently again, I have to wonder if the victims will suffer long term illnesses or illnesses that show up later like those who were at 9/11. Lord only knows what kind of nasties were in the water that people swam/waded through and probably inadvertantly drank. It's not like many of the victims could even afford proper medical care before Katrina, let alone after they've lost everything.

Currently looking for info on - RSV, TB, Rhogam or any other shots/diseases I may have left out. I left these for last because they are not as routine as others.

[VoiceOfReason]

Thank you all for having/participating this thread. I believe many people out there need to see that there is often more than one perspective. I hope that (as has happened on the last 4-6 pages) original data is used when making statements, and that both sides (or are there more than 2 sides??) are open to learing something new. I am quite impressed that kanga and others are so concerned with getting correct facts that they would go back and correct earlier posts. I am thoroughly enjoying the discussion.
I continue to learn more every day, and enjoy the process!

[Kanga]

I found some new information of HPV and Vitamin K shots

HPV - IMO, the clinical trials for Gardasil were seriously flawed. The control group was not controlled at all. Instead of receiving nothing or a saline solution, and the test group receiving Gardasil, the were given an aluminum containing placebo. (I assume the controlled group is given something so they are not aware of whether they received Gardasil or the placebo so as not to construe any AR they may have?)

The FDA allowed Merck to use a potentially reactive aluminum containing placebo as a control for most trial participants, rather than a non-reactive saline solution placebo.[1] A reactive placebo can artificially increase the appearance of safety of an experimental drug or vaccine in a clinical trial. Gardasil contains 225 mcg of aluminum and, although aluminum adjuvants have been used in vaccines for decades, they were never tested for safety in clinical trials. Merck and the FDA did not disclose how much aluminum was in the placebo.[2]

According to the Merck product manufacturer insert, there was 1 case of juvenile arthritis, 2 cases of rheumatoid arthritis, 5 cases of arthritis, and 1 case of reactive arthritis out of 11,813 Gardasil recipients plus 1 case of lupus and 2 cases of arthritis out of 9,701 participants primarily receiving an aluminum containing placebo. Clinical trial investigators dismissed most of the 102 Gardasil and placebo associated serious adverse events, including 17 deaths, that occurred in the clinical trials as unrelated.




http://www.inciid.org/article.php?cat=cancer&id=433

Vit K - On the package insert there is a large yellow box with a warning that cannot be missed. Not all package inserts have this, so it's not a regular thing. The warning states that IV vit K should be used as a last resort if no other forms of vit k (intramuscular) can be given.
http://www.fda.gov/medwatch/SAFETY/2003/03Feb_PI/AquaMEPHYTON_PI.pdf Towards the bottom it says it may cause jaundice among other things I can't pronounce, particularly in preemies (in both methods, not just IV)

[BTB]

I have purposefully avoided responding in this thread, as I generally feel that people already have their minds made up on this topic one way or the other and there is little to be done about that. And perhaps good judgment would dictate that I ought to continue to avoid responding, because I have just come off a busy 32-hr shift caring for seriously ill children, and thus have neither the time nor the eloquence I would like. Against that better judgment, though, I will admit to being very disappointed with the bias I feel pervades this thread, as the idea of balanced information is wonderful but I feel is very far from realized here.

Someone (I don't remember who, and it doesn't matter, that's not the point) said "children who die from vaccine preventable illnesses did so because they did not receive proper medical care". Oh, how I wish that were true. It's not.

Several someones, I think, said "vaccines shouldn't receive the credit for the amazing decline in vaccine-preventable illness incidence and mortality. Nutrition, sanitation, hygiene and other health advances are responsible for that". I wish that were true, too, because if it were, it would mean that rates of these diseases would stay low, even when vaccination rates declined. But in community after community - even now, in the 21st century - lower vaccination rates are followed by higher disease rates.

So much about vaccines is misunderstood. "Most pertussis cases occur in previously vaccinated children anyway". Yes, that's true. But. That's not the whole story. The size of the populations under comparison is not the same, so a comparison of the total number of cases is invalid. If you have a majority of the population contracting a disease at a low rate, and a small population contracting that disease at a higher rate, you can still end up with way more cases in the majority group, just because the group is so large to start with.

That comparison also doesn't take into account at all the experience of the illness for the vaccinated group and the unvaccinated group. Vaccines even when they "fail" often still partially protect, meaning the person has a shortened, milder form of the illness. This is particularly true for pertussis, wherein many cases of the illness in vaccinated individuals are so mild, the person and their doctor don't even know they have pertussis.

Then, although a pediatrician was lambasted for using "scaremongering" for telling a parent about real kids who really get these disease and really die, it was "unbiased information" to post here that someone watched kids - plural! - go from perfect to profoundly autistic within hours of receiving the MMR vaccine. Again, I don't recall who/whom and it doesn't matter. But if that person is willing, seriously, ask that mom if she's willing to let data be collected and those findings be published in the medical literature. It'd be the health story of the century, and bely everything known about Autistic Spectrum Disorders, not to mention immunology and the nervous system.

Lastly, just as the AERs were "dismissed" in the above quote (what a loaded choice of words), doctors' recommendations have been "dismissed" in this thread as "pharmaceutically influenced". Likewise the CDC, the WHO, the AAP - all "dismissed" as corrupt. It comes down to who you want to trust, I guess. There is ample scientific evidence for the efficacy and safety of vaccines. If none of it is from "believeable" or "trustworthy" sources, then yes, I guess the only rational thing to do would be to choose risk of illness over risk of vaccine.

I've not cited any sources. My source is my brain, and thus my contribution is woefully inadequate, and I'm sorry for that. But I'm also exhausted, and have already spent too long here, when I could be soundly in bed. I don't wish to go find the sources. My toddler will get home at 5:30, at which time I won't have seen her for 46 hours, and I want to try to be rested. Thus, I'm not going to bother because I feel for the most part I'd be bashing my head against a concrete wall anyway. And, because the info's already all out there for anybody who really wants it. If there any undecided moms lurking, seeking truly balanced information, I would only caution them not to end their search here.

[HGMorgann]

It was me who knows kids who went "from perfect to profoundly autistic within hours of receiving the MMR vaccine" and the moms both are active in autism and MMR awareness but with little respect or results from the medical community. Labeled as coincidental. They encouraged my research. I did not bring them up to oversimply the issue but to address MY fears. Their story will never be the "story of the century". One mom is part of "http://www.momsagainstmercury.org/", but as you know they have little respect in the medical community. The other works for Easter Seals.

I'm not anti-vaccine. We work with her doctor on her schedule. I'm very grateful for our wise and intelligent doctor who does things differently and looks at his patients as individuals and makes schedules based on their health history and needs. :-)

[mimieliza]

BTB -

When you've had rest, and time, I have some questions (and I think your answers would be a helpful addition to the thread).

I am leaning towards doing all vaccines at this point with the exception of HepB and MMR/Varicella (will do these, just delay a bit).

What would be some good, medically sound reasons for doing HepB in infancy rather than waiting a few years?

Are there any routine vaccinations I should avoid? I'm pretty set on IPV and DTaP. I also think Hib and PCV are important, since they protect against diseases that are still commonly seen.

Should DH and I receive the influenza vaccine? Our child is due in Nov. Can I receive it after I give birth, or is there risk that they will have run out by then?

I am going to be interviewing the only pediatrics practice in my small town soon. Is there a way to broach the issue of vaccines that won't make the doctors take a negative view of me? I just want to be able to discuss the issue openly. I know some would say I should find a different doctor's office if that happens, but the nearest alternate clinic is over an hour away - not something I want to deal with when I have a sick child.

[katmg]

Thus, I'm not going to bother because I feel for the most part I'd be bashing my head against a concrete wall anyway. And, because the info's already all out there for anybody who really wants it. If there any undecided moms lurking, seeking truly balanced information, I would only caution them not to end their search here.

BTB, I am an undecided mom-to-be. I am trying to figure out what I want to do. There is so much conflicting information and it is hard to decipher what is fact and what is not. My plan is to take my research and discuss it with the pediatricians that we interview. I'm not so interested in not vaxing as much as I am doing a delayed schedule. I would also be interested in the best way to bring up the subject.

I would not feel that your time/breath are wasted in a thread like this. Just because there aren't a bunch of posts from the "undecideds" doesn't mean we're aren't reading along.

[Kay]

I found some new information of HPV and Vitamin K shots

HPV - IMO, the clinical trials for Gardasil were seriously flawed. The control group was not controlled at all. Instead of receiving nothing or a saline solution, and the test group receiving Gardasil, the were given an aluminum containing placebo. (I assume the controlled group is given something so they are not aware of whether they received Gardasil or the placebo so as not to construe any AR they may have?)


http://www.inciid.org/article.php?cat=cancer&id=433

Vit K - On the package insert there is a large yellow box with a warning that cannot be missed. Not all package inserts have this, so it's not a regular thing. The warning states that injection vit K should be used as a last resort if no other forms of vit k (dietary, oral) can be given.
http://www.fda.gov/medwatch/SAFETY/2003/03Feb_PI/AquaMEPHYTON_PI.pdf Towards the bottom it says it may cause jaundice among other things, particularly in preemies.


FYI- that yellow warning on the package insert on vitamin K is about IV vitamin K administration NOT the shot given to infants at birth. Its the same med, yes, but medications have different effects when administered directly into the bloodstream via an IV. That is what the yellow warning box is referring too.

Thank you BTB for saying all the things that I was thinking reading this thread.

[Kanga]

FYI- that yellow warning on the package insert on vitamin K is about IV vitamin K administration NOT the shot given to infants at birth. Its the same med, yes, but medications have different effects when administered directly into the bloodstream via an IV. That is what the yellow warning box is referring too.


Ok, that makes sense. I will edit my post to make it more clear. What problems would there be to give the vit K intraveneously rather than intramuscular? And why is the IV so much more dangerous than the shot? (I understand and agree with what you're saying about different methods having different effects, but do you know exactly what causes the iv to be more dangerous than the shot?) Another question - I know it's mandated in a lot of cities/states/hospitals to do the vit k unless parents say otherwise, but wouldn't they rather encourage Mom to eat lots of vit k rich foods instead? And why are formula fed babies given teh vit k shot - sense there is a high level (compared to bm) of vit k in the formula?

Flu vaccine - there's two kinds - fluMIST which is a live vaccine nasal spray which isn't recommended for pregnant women. Also, it was first approved for use in 2003 which for me is too new. Then there's the shot which most of the contain mercury (they do make ones without mercury, but I've heard they can be hard to find). Ultimately I decided against the flu vaccine while pregant (and this was before I had done any research on vaccines) for a couple different reasons. The first being I have only ever caught the flu once and that was in either 96 or 97. The second being the vaccine does not contain every strain out there, so even if you are vaccinated, you can still get the flu. Third reason being I was undecided in what field I was going to be returning to work in with a slight possibility I wouldn't return at all and felt that if I changed my mind and ended up working in a place with close contact to people (such as cutting hair) where I'd be more vulnerable to illness I could always get it later. I ended up not returning at all and since dd is not in daycare and I do not WOH thus do not come into close contact with very many people I didn't feel it was necessary for me. (BTW - my dd was due and born on oct 25)

Is there a way to broach the issue of vaccines that won't make the doctors take a negative view of me? I just want to be able to discuss the issue openly.

What about saying something to the effect of "What is your view on vaccinations and what is your recommended schedule for infants?" You don't indicate at all your stance on vaxes so I wouldn't think it would cause them to adjust their answer based on your question. Likewise I don't think they would think negatively of you because you didn't disclose your view.

But if that person is willing, seriously, ask that mom if she's willing to let data be collected and those findings be published in the medical literature. It'd be the health story of the century, and bely everything known about Autistic Spectrum Disorders, not to mention immunology and the nervous system.


How do you go about this when as HGMorgan said, it's hard to get anybody to listen? One of dh's coworkers has a child who she believes is autistic because of a vaccine(s?) (I don't recall which one but it doesn't really matter anyway) and has said anytime she tries to get somebody to listen to her POV, they automatically dismiss it as coincidental and not possible. Who do you suggest she talk to?

[Kanga]

*double post*

Is everbody else having problems with cc changing pages and refreshing or is it just me?

[jh124]

Flu Shot - Our peds office stocks flu vaccine that is mercury free, parents just need to ask/demand it.

[Toonces]

We've been on vacation so I've just skimmed the last few pages. I do have one comment/one question...

I have done zero research on the RhoGam shot, but I recd it once when PG with DD and once after she was born. During this pregnancy I recd it at 8 weeks due to an issue with spotting, and then again at 27 weeks b/c of another issue with spotting. I think it lasts 12 weeeks. Has anyone found any info that it could potentially harm a fetus? I'll try to do some research this weekend, but we just got back a couple of hours ago and wanted to post while I was thinking of this.

Question ~ I recd the small pox vax (not sure when they stopped giving it) and my mom said I had an awful reaction to it - broke out in hives and had a fever for days. So they don't give this vax anymore b/c no one in the US has small pox, right? They do have it in other countries though, don't they? I know it's a chemical warfare hazard and am just curious what everyone thinks about this. The polio vax conversations are what made me think of this.... do you think the polio vax will ever be discontinued, similar to how the small pox vax was? I'm not the most informed person on all of the vaxes - mostly just know what's in them.

Off to unpack and do laundry - ick!!

[alisong]

I have done zero research on the RhoGam shot, but I recd it once when PG with DD and once after she was born. During this pregnancy I recd it at 8 weeks due to an issue with spotting, and then again at 27 weeks b/c of another issue with spotting. I think it lasts 12 weeeks. Has anyone found any info that it could potentially harm a fetus? I'll try to do some research this weekend, but we just got back a couple of hours ago and wanted to post while I was thinking of this.I really wouldn't consider RhoGam a vaccine, as it's purpose is to stop your body from having an immune reaction; to "mop up" the fetal antigens before your body has a chance to react to them. Hemolytic disease of the newborn is pretty horrific, so there's no way I'd refuse RhoGam if I was Rh- and DH was RH+ (I might refuse if DH was also Rh- -- I think that's really a "public health" measure because doctors can't guarantee the father of the child is the woman's husband).

Question ~ I recd the small pox vax (not sure when they stopped giving it) and my mom said I had an awful reaction to it - broke out in hives and had a fever for days. So they don't give this vax anymore b/c no one in the US has small pox, right? They do have it in other countries though, don't they? I know it's a chemical warfare hazard and am just curious what everyone thinks about this. The polio vax conversations are what made me think of this.... do you think the polio vax will ever be discontinued, similar to how the small pox vax was? I'm not the most informed person on all of the vaxes - mostly just know what's in them.

Wild small pox doesn't exist anywhere in the world, which is why we've been able to discontinue vaccination. Also why it's a possible bioterrorism weapon. Hopefully polio will also go that way, it's now gone (in wild form) from the Western Hemesphere.

[allyray231]

catgirl1007 I also had Rhogram whe pg-twice for spotting and then once at 28 weeks and after DS was born

ETA-sorry wanted to come back and finish my thought. DH is A+ and I am O- so I had to have it. I spoke to the OB in length and did some reasearch but didn't find anything that negative about it.

[tgal]

I apologize if this has been posted already, but are there daycare centers that will take infants who are delaying vax? I recall some private schools allow this, but was curious if there are daycare centers as well. TIA!

[Kanga]

A 100% private daycare doesn't have to take kids without vax, but some do. If the center receives any sort of funding from the gov't, then it's my understanding they do have to allow exemptions, though the center (or a school) in most states do not have to give you any information on the exemptions, only what the requirements are to file one if they are asked. FTR - few people want to mess with religious discrimination, so if you say "I have a religious objection" rather than "I have an exemption" you're usually better off.

[LyLMyssChaos]

Has anyone dealt with telling a doctor that you do not want to have certain vaccines because of it containing aborted fetal tissue? I saw a new ped for the first time and she sat there arguing with me telling me that they do not contain AFT. She was telling me that when human diploid cells are listed as ingredients that they are referring to cells that are dividing. Can anyone give me a good website that discusses that particular ingredient? I am really thinking I don't want to vax my 3rd baby even though I did do some vax with my other 2 children.

[jennylou]

DD is due for her 2 month shots this week. How many will she be getting?

Also, can someone give me a link to back this statement up:

Default
Hep B cont'd - 90-95% of all hepatitis B cases recover completely after 3 to 4 weeks of nausea, fatigue, headache, arthritis, jaundice and tender liver. You can refuse this shot for your newborn at the hospital. An independent committee of physician experts concluded that there were no case controlled observational studies or controlled clinical trials conducted on hepatitis B vaccine either before or after licensure to scientifically evaluate persistent reports that hepatitis B vaccine can cause sudden infant death syndrome; Guillain-Barre syndrome (GBS) and other central demyelinating diseases including transverse myelitis, optic neuritis, and multiple sclerosis; and immune system dysfunction including chronic arthritis.

[Kanga]

Also, can someone give me a link to back this statement up:


http://www.909shot.com/Diseases/hepBfacts.htm

The first part of it is the second bullet down, the rest of it is towards the bottom.

DD is due for her 2 month shots this week. How many will she be getting?


However many you and your ped decide. Some do one at a time and others follow whatever the CDC says. You can call your ped and ask them what shots they routinely give at what ages. The recommended schedule (CDC's 2006 Childhood Immunization Schedule (http://www.cdc.gov/nip/recs/child-schedule-color-print.pdf)) is for 7 diseases in 4 shots. DTaP (Ditptheria, Tetanus, and acellular Pertussis/whooping cough), PCV (Pneumococcal), Hepatits B, and Hib (haemophilus influenzae type b).

[jh124]

This thread seems to have gone from "vaccine information" to "anti-vaccine information." Is it possible to change the title?

[dzmattie]

Last year - DS was 2 years and I requested the thermerisol free vaccine and our pedi got it for us. This year I requested it and the pedi said they "save it for kids 2 years and under" - how can I get it or change their minds to give it to my now almost 3 year old?

Anyone have any advice for me?

[Kanga]

This thread seems to have gone from "vaccine information" to "anti-vaccine information." Is it possible to change the title?


As far as I'm concerned, anyone who has any info to add on why you should get a certain (or all) vaccines is more than welcome to post it. That being said it really doesn't matter to me if we keep it one thread or split it.

Last year - DS was 2 years and I requested the thermerisol free vaccine and our pedi got it for us. This year I requested it and the pedi said they "save it for kids 2 years and under" - how can I get it or change their minds to give it to my now almost 3 year old?

Anyone have any advice for me?


I'd call around to different peds and see if they can get it. Just tell your ped that for now you won't be getting it until you can see if somebody else can get it for you. If you still can't find anybody, I'm not sure there's much you can do but ask them to make an exception.

[Toonces]

Has anyone dealt with telling a doctor that you do not want to have certain vaccines because of it containing aborted fetal tissue? Can anyone give me a good website that discusses that particular ingredient?

I talked with DD's Ped (who is semi-crunchy and ok with delaying/avoiding certain vaxes) about it a few days ago and he said that years ago when they created the IPV that they used AFT for the initial creation of that vax. He said that it doesn't mean that now there are little pieces of AFT floating around in the vax. I don't understand chemistry or whatever it is that they use to create meds/vaxes (if someone knows, can you pls jump in and explain?), but that's what he shared with me. Click here (http://www.909shot.com/Vaccine%20Excipients%20CDC.pdf) for an excellent web site re vax ingredients. I had to Google some of the items b/c I didn't know what they are, so it takes some time but it's worth it.

ETA: on that web site, MRC-5 = AFT

[krbb]

jennylou - DS had three shots at his 2,4,and 6 month visit (the same vaccine each time). Sorry, can't help you out with the Hep B. That is interesting though.

I have decided to delay the MMR vaccine (along with the chicken pox) until DS is at least 2. I have read about some people wanting the MMR split up into three shots. What is the benefit giving it in three shots instead of the one?

[Sevilla]

Jenny - Some dr.s are also giving the new Rotavirus vax at the 2 month or 4 month visits so that would mean 5 vaccines - hep b, dtap, polio, hib, rotavirus (i believe rotateq is the brand name).

[jennylou]

Jenny - Some dr.s are also giving the new Rotavirus vax at the 2 month or 4 month visits so that would mean 5 vaccines - hep b, dtap, polio, hib, rotavirus (i believe rotateq is the brand name).

Thanks Sevilla, this is exactly what she got today. The rotateq is new, but it's NOT the one that was out in the 90's. It's an oral dose too, so at least she didn't have to get five pricks. Poor thing cried, but it was over quick and then she was snuggling with mommy again.

[Sevilla]

Yep, Rotateq is oral dose and different from the 90's vax. It is a live virus vaccine so those tend to have higher reaction rates so watch for that over the next few days. Especially since it is a newer vaccine, i think it's important that your ped know how his patients respond to it :).

[Kanga]

I have read about some people wanting the MMR split up into three shots. What is the benefit giving it in three shots instead of the one?


Sorry I'm just getting to this. The m, m, and the r are all live viruses (weakened, but still live) so the body is fighting three or four live viruses at once (ProQuad is like the MMR, but it also has the CP vaccine in it). I believe the reason why most split it up is because of the link to autism. It hasn't been proven that vaccines cause autism, but it hasn't been disproven either. Many people believe the MMR is the straw that breaks the camel's back as far as autism goes, so by splitting it up, it's easier on the system. Some dr.'s may tell you it's a myth that the MMR can be split up. It's not a myth as I know plenty of people who have done it this way, but it is harder to find a dr. to do it. They have to order a certain am't of vaccines at once, so it's not cost effective if they don't have enough patients to use them by their expiration date.

[LyLMyssChaos]

Is it true that there is a "shedding" period with the MMR? That doctor that I took my sons to told me that there wasn't and that concerns me because I have always heard that there was.

[Kanga]

Is it true that there is a "shedding" period with the MMR? That doctor that I took my sons to told me that there wasn't and that concerns me because I have always heard that there was.

Any live vaccine virus sheds, including the MMR and MMR+CP. I don't know how they can deny it when it states right in the package insert...

Excretion of small amounts of the live attenuated rubella virus from the nose or throat of the majority of susceptible individuals 7-28 days after vaccination.

http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/m/mmr_ii/mmr_ii_pi.pdf

[krbb]

Thanks Kanga!! I will have to do more research about splitting up the shot and talk to the ped. I just know for now that we will hold off on it. Luckily the practice DS goes to is fine with delayed vax or no vax!

[Kanga]

Thanks Kanga!! I will have to do more research about splitting up the shot and talk to the ped. I just know for now that we will hold off on it. Luckily the practice DS goes to is fine with delayed vax or no vax!

Your welcome! Actually another benefit to delayed vaxes is that you don't have to get as many doses of some (all?) vaccines. I can't remember how many they need on a delayed rather than the CDC schedule or for how long they need to be delayed for, but I'll see if I can find it for you. Or since your dr. is comfortable with delayed, he'll probably know.

[kmack]

Luckily the practice DS goes to is fine with delayed vax or no vax!

did you specifically select the practice for this reason, or did you find out afterwards?

i am dreading DD's 15 mo. visit on monday b/c i have a feeling they are going to make me feel uncomfortable for asking to delay the MMR and for refusing the flu shot- given the reaction i got when i asked to receive only 2 shots at once instead of 4. i should probably just switch peds. but i am having a hard time figuring out which ones will be okay with a delayed/selective schedule.

also re: receiving the MMR in separate doses, i was just reading through my book about it and it brings up a valid point...your child will receive 3 times the amount of all the other ingredients in the shot as opposed to just receiving it all at once with one shot. just another thing to consider if you do separate.

i am going to ask if my dr. separates it but i can guarantee they won't do it..

[HGMorgann]

kmack You didn't ask for this advice, but how about delay her app't for another month while you research more? Actually, half of the kids in my DD's birthday group, didn't even have a 15 mo. appt. Good luck with your decision. I have a very supportive doctor and we follow his schedule, so its been easy for me to address my concerns and we have lengthy discussions, so I really feel for moms who don't have that relationship with their peds.

[Kanga]

kmack - you can go to the finding your tribe forums on MDC and most likely get at least one rec. Also, unless there's other vaxes you want to get, there's not much point in a WBV (for a child that's always been healthy) unless you want to out of curiosity's sake IMO. We got tired of paying $25 all the time for them just to weigh and measure dd and say "Yup, she looks good!" so we just go 2x a year now for peace of mind and to CMA god forbid should I have a run in with CPS. If you're afraid they won't be nice about the delayed/split shots, and don't want anything else from them, then I'd just cancel and tell them you'll call back to reschedule.

ETA - Oops, cross posted with HGMorgann.

[Toonces]

kmack - you can go to the finding your tribe forums on MDC and most likely get at least one rec.

I was just going to recommend this. That's how I found our current Ped. We drive 45 minutes one way to see him, but it's worth it. We switched for reasons other than delaying/skipping vaxes, but that came as part of the package. :)

[dana b]

kmack if you want a new ped, you should be able to find one here http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AP_Doctor_Referral/. once you join, there's a database of docs or you can post and ask for a referral.

[alisong]

kmack - here's a rather offbeat suggestion - I've actually found Kaiser docs to be really flexible about vaxs. Because they're part of an HMO, they're really not able to refuse to see your kid just because you're refusing/delaying vaxs. I don't love DS's ped, but he doesn't give me a hard time about delaying.

[kmack]

alisong what's a kaiser doctor?

thanks hgmorgann, kanga, catgirl and danab. somehow i got pointed to MDC find your tribe a while ago, maybe by someone on CC, i can't even remember...i found 2 doctors in the area i wanted. one of which was Mark Vonnegut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Vonnegut) who has his own practice. i ended up interviewing the other dr. in the office (who was going out on maternity leave), then found out that MV was a schizophrenic so i didn't feel comfortable going there. i only spoke to the other practice on the phone and they said they would only delay MMR to 18 mos. i'll go back on and see if i can't find more recommendations. thanks!

ETA: i was considering canceling the appt. but i have a whole list of questions about DD's growth and development so i would rather see someone. who knows, maybe this new dr. will be just what i am looking for (i am meeting with a dr. in the practice that i haven't met yet).

i wonder if i did cancel the appt. and didn't schedule another one until she was 2, if they would call and hound me to come in for her vaxes?

[krbb]

Kanga - If you happen to come across which vaccines they don't need as many doses if you delay I would appreciate you posting it!

kmack - When I started looking for a Dr for DS I wasn't sure if I wanted DS vax on scheduled or not (did know I wanted him vaccinated though). I asked questions about some of the vaxes (I know I asked why they push the HepB so early) when I interviewed and the Dr explained why and said if I wasn't comfortable with DS getting it then that was fine. I chose him more for the way he communicated with me. It was also a bonus that the office is less than a five minute drive from my house.

I don't think they would call and bother you if you cancel. You could just tell them that your insurance changed and they don't cover it.

[alisong]

kmack - Kaiser (http://www.kp.org) is a big HMO, possibly only on the West Coast. They're generally about the cheapest option for employer-sponsored health plans. They're not typically reknowned for their flexible doctors, but I think in this case it's an advantage that they can't drop you.

[tray622]

A little off topic... but does anyone know about the legal issues of vaxing? I know that if a preschool is being given any government funds, there are exemptions and they cant fight it. Are the private schools then allowed to refuse admission? I ask because I am signing up my oldest for preschool and am having a very hard time with our favorite. She hasnt had any immunizations since 6 months (we are delaying and starting up at 2 with some). They are being really rude and I dont know where to find my legal rights if any.

[HGMorgann]

If the private school recieves any government funds, they must accept exemptions. If they are 100% private, then they do have a right to refuse you.

[Toonces]

Tracy ~ I'm not sure that each state handles the public vs. private school issues the same way. There's a vaccination forum on MDC (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/forumdisplay.php?f=47) with a lot of helpful info and you can search by state. Click here (http://909shot.com/state-site/legal-exemptions.htm) for a web site that has philisophical exemption info about some states, including CA.

[tray622]

Thanks catgirl and HGMorgann! I am going to check out those links, but they are private so I guess I am SOL. :( Bummer.

[kmack]

does anyone know if DTaP and DaPT are the same thing? i am just looking over the shots DD is supposed to get on monday, and she has received 3 shots of DTaP already (at 2, 4 and 6 mos), but the 4th one is listed as DaPT. it didn't seem like a typo to me b/c it is written that way 2 other times on the sheet i am looking at. i think this shot was linked to SIDS so they changed it way back when, but i thought it was just DPT...now i am confused??:confused:

[HGMorgann]

It looks like DaTP is what is in the combo-vaxes. : from a website: Immunization with DaPT/IPV/Hib (Diphtheria, acellular Pertussis, Tetanus, Polio and Haemophilus Influenzae Type b vaccine) is the best way to prevent these diseases. This vaccine protects against five diseases all in one shot." http://www.bchealthguide.org/healthfiles/hfile15b.stm

*I don't agree with this statement, but this is what the website said....

[kmack]

so they are grouping 5 into one shot, instead of just diptheria, pertussis, and tetanus?

[kmack]

back again...just wondering if anyone has given their DC vitamin c, i have read that it can help prevent vaccine reactions. if so, what form did you give it to them in, and how much? and did it work?

DD got the above-mentioned combo vax today (the ped told me it only contained DTap and HIB, she will be getting the polio vax at the next visit)- she screamed her head off which she really has not done before. then when we got home she took her nap, but when she got up she was whining and was telling me that her foot hurt her. i had to take her sock off and she kept touching her toes and saying 'ow'. when i put her down she couldnt even put pressure on her foot so she wouldnt walk unless i held her hand. i looked for any redness or swelling but didn't see any,but i called the drs. office anyway b/c i thought it was weird. they called me back later and told me it was normal and that the pain from the site where they administered the shot was radiating down to her foot :confused: i gave her tylenol and she seems to be better now...

they wanted to give her the DTap/HIB, MMR, Hep A, and flu shot all at once. that seems like on overload to me! i declined all but the first one...

[Kanga]

Sodium ascorbate powder is supposedly the best form from what I've heard (is most easily absorbed by the body). You buy it online or maybe in some health food stores in your area and mix it in with pudding, applesauce, etc. Here's a link to nutrition info (mainly vitamins and minerals and their role for the immune system). http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=406983 The search feature is down right now, but try searching there under sodium ascorbate or vitamin c and you should get some good info on where to buy it and how much to start with*. Also vit A, cod liver oil, and selenium are good for the immune system as well.

*There is no set amount to give your dc as every baby is different, but they can give you a good amount to start with. The general rule of thumb is the most you can get your dc to take without causing diarrhea.

ETA - Here's another link specifically on sodium ascorbate http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=353318

[Delta]

they wanted to give her the DTap/HIB, MMR, Hep A, and flu shot all at once. that seems like on overload to me! i declined all but the first one...That is NINE different vaccines they wanted to give her at once. Insanity. I wouldn't let myself have that many at once, much less my kid. :eek:

[NYN]

kara how is she doing today? i'm SO glad you said no to all those other vaxes. my pediatrician is super pro-vax and mainstream and she would have a heart attack if she knew that someone out there was recommending that many vaccinations at once. good god.

[allyray231]

kmak that is an isane number of shots at once!! OMG!

[kmack]

i knew going in there that i was not going to get the MMR or the flu shot, hep A wasn't on the schedule for the day but i just said no b/c it's a new vax and i didn't know much about it. then when i was driving home i was counting up the number of diseases she would have gotten vax for and i thought it was way too much.

when i told the ped. i wanted to delay the MMR until DD was 2 she advised me against it, mentioning the 'outbreak' here in boston (12 people). so i didnt book an appt for her 18 mo. visit and in the meantime i am going to try to find a new ped. also, i asked if they could split the MMR and she said no b/c they did it once and someone came down with the measles. i asked why she thought that happened and she maybe b/c there was a different make-up of the separate doses or something.

NYN she was better after i gave her the tylenol yesterday, thanks! she seems to be fine today.

[tgal]

This is more of a BFing/Pumping vaccine related question. Thought it might be more appropriate here than on the other threads.

I have an opportunity to get the Flu vaccine for free here in the office today. Our ped recommended that dh and I get it, but not dd. I've been holding off until I am done bfing to get my Tetnus based on several things I've read, but haven't had time to look into the flu shot. Just curious if anyone here has info. And if the benefits outweigh any negatives and I opt to get it should I pump and dump today? TIA

[Marisa]

tgal -- according to Dr. Hale's website, the flu vaccine administered via shot is a 'dead' vaccine and will not shed. It is approved by the AAP and CDC for use in nursing mothers.

There is another flu vaccine administered nasally which is "live" (Flumist); with that there is chance of shedding, but that would be the case whether or not mother is nursing.

No pumping/dumping should be necessary.

[tgal]

Excellent, thanks Marisa!

[tray622]

kmack It is so weird that the ped mentioned that because if you read below we had a creepy breakout from the MMR. I probably should have insisted on splitting it :(

I was talking a page or so back about the issue we were having with a private preschool and shots. Well we ended up giving DD the MMR and they let us waive the rest (dont ask why). Not to freak anybody out but even at 2, she had the worst reaction ever. It was fine for about 5 days and then by day 7 she was in a full on rash from head to toe with fevers in the 103's. After many blood tests and an ER visit it turned out to be a reactive strand of the measles, meaning she has measle like symptoms without actually having the "measles." It has been horrible to say the least and I feel so guilty that I can cry :( Zoey was very much in the minority of kids to have such a reaction but it truly is upsetting to go through!

[Toonces]

Tray ~ I'm so sorry to read about Zoey's reaction. :( As hard as it is on her, I can only imagine how much you're suffering seeing your little girl go through this. Hopefully she's on the downswing of things now. My mom said I had a really bad reaction to the MMR - much like what you described Zoey had. We haven't gotten DD her MMR yet b/c of that. You just never know for sure how they'll react, but you did what you had to do given your situation. I don't see that you had another choice. Hugs to both of you!

[Toonces]

I'm sorry... I don't have a lot of time right now and did a quick Yahoo search and didn't find a lot. DS's Ped is semi-"crunchy" and is fine with us skipping/delaying certain vaxes. I told him that I don't even want to talk about vaxes until DS is at least 2. The only one he's recommending, and it's at his 2 month appt on 1/10, is the "meningitis vaccination". That's what he called it. Does anyone have any info on this one? TIA!!

[mgrace]

catgirl1007, I believe that would be the HiB vax (Haemophilus influenzae type B).

[NYN]

do research on the HiB vax and babies who are exclusively breastfed for six months or longer before allowing it...

[magrat]

I'm definitely middle-of-the road when it comes to vaccines, and I want to make an informed choice, but there is just too much info out there! I'm all for delaying vax and I wondered if anyone has come up with a middle-of-the road schedule? Which ones are safest to skip altogether, and how long to delay the others? I would think the anti-vax advocacy groups would understand that some people aren't comfortable skipping them entirely, and would have recommendations for delaying. (I already know I plan to delay CP until the kid is like 12 if it doesn't catch it by then).

[Kanga]

I'm all for delaying vax and I wondered if anyone has come up with a middle-of-the road schedule? Which ones are safest to skip altogether, and how long to delay the others? I would think the anti-vax advocacy groups would understand that some people aren't comfortable skipping them entirely, and would have recommendations for delaying. (I already know I plan to delay CP until the kid is like 12 if it doesn't catch it by then).


There is no one common schedule used amongst selective/delayed vaxers. There's a section of the vax forums on MDC specifically just for those who choose to delay/skip some vaccines. I'll see if I can find a link for you. It basically boils down to which diseases you feel comfortable treating (or you feel your dc won't get...polio is a common one) and which ones you think your dc would be worth risking adverse events from a vaccine than catching and having complications from a disease. Of course every disease is different as is every vaccine so that is no easy task.

I found it most helpful to start one disease at a time (for which there are vaccines available). I looked up each disease, what the symptoms were, treatment (both what dr.'s would do and homeopathic/non-traditional methods), mortality rate, long term complications, etc and crossed off any disease that I was comfortable treating or didn't think my dd was at a real risk for. With the ones I had left, I started researching the vaccine, the percent of adverse events/deaths and then multiplied by 10 since the CDC estimates that only 10% are ever reported.

Other things that came into play in my decision were how the vaccines were tested for safety and efficacy, the whole autism debate, myelination of the brain, the fact that you can test for immunity before giving the vaccine, the # of vaccines and # of doses I and my parents generation received as a child compared to now, the vax schedule in other countries (Japan, Europe, Canada, etc) how nutrition plays a role in diseases and treatment, and the money ties between the gov't, the CDC, and big pharma.

A lot of the people I know that delay/selec vax will hold off completely until 2-3 or so because of myelination, then get a blood draw to test for immunity (titer check) and go from there.

And finally, this is obviously solely my own opinion, but I wouldn't continue vaccinating until you are 100% confident with your decision to give said vaccines. Should you find that you DO want to give vaccines you can always get them later, but should you decide that you DON'T want to give a certain vaccine, you can never take it back.

ETA - here is the link to the selec/delayed thread http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=224582

[magdesilver]

magrat, this is a hard decision and the amount of info out there can be overwhelming ( I often wish there was a definitive "delayed schedule" to follow so I wouldn't have to make the decisions myself!). What we did with DD was give her most of the usual shots (only one she hasn't had yet is MMR) but only one at a time with at least a month in between to watch for reactions and take it a little easier on her. However, we didn't start that until she was about 9 months old. I'm not sure what I am going to do with the new baby because I don't want him to have so many shots at once- but I know it will take a lot longer to catch up to the normal schedule than with DD since we are starting at birth this time. It's so hard to decide what is right for you! Last year we skipped the flu vax because DD didn't have any exposure really. But, this year with me being pregnant/having a newborn during flu season and DD going to MDO, I did get her the preservative-free shot- though only 1 dose because they ran out before I could get her back for the second dose.

[Ericka_Jarett]

meningitis vaccine could be Hib and/or Pneumococcal Conjugate

Only vaccine we are skipping is chicken pox.

[Delaney21]

I was planning on using the vax schedule Dr. Cave recommended, but now I'm not so sure. It seems like a lot of the vaxes are pointless or the diseases they are out to protect us from are no big deal.

[Toonces]

nak

thanks so much, ladies! i found the HiB/bf'ing research here (http://www.vaccinationnews.com/DailyNews/May2001/Breastfeeding.htm) and this mdc thread (http://www.mothering.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=157922) for anyone else who is interested.

[HollyMN]

(I already know I plan to delay CP until the kid is like 12 if it doesn't catch it by then).

I planned to do this too (I had chicken pox in 2nd grade, not a problem), but not sure how it will work out now. Are you planning to send your child to public schools? Chicken pox and flu shots are the only vaccinations I've refused so far - at each appointment, they ask if I decided about the chicken pox, and each time I've forgotten and procrastinated. Caleb's pediatrician said "no rush, he just needs it to attend school". Right now I'm assuming we'd send him to public school, and I'm not sure if it's a Minnesota thing. One thing I wonder about his generation is that there aren't kids to catch it from at school like we had.

[Rico'sAlice]

Caleb's pediatrician said "no rush, he just needs it to attend school". Right now I'm assuming we'd send him to public school, and I'm not sure if it's a Minnesota thing. One thing I wonder about his generation is that there aren't kids to catch it from at school like we had.

Minnesota essentially has a philosophical exemption. You just have to file that.

Minnesota's School Immunization Law Exemption Provision

Minnesota's school immunization laws allow the parent or guardian of a minor child (or the emancipated student) to file for a legal exemption to the school immunization requirements. The law allows for two types of legal exemptions: medical and conscientious. Below is a summary of how to obtain these exemptions.
Exemptions

1. Medical Exemption
If an immunization(s) is contraindicated for medical reasons, the parent/guardian (or emancipated student) must submit to the school or child care facility a statement signed by the health care provider that an immunization is contraindicated for medical reasons or that laboratory confirmation of the presence of adequate immunity exists and the immunization(s) is not required.

2. Conscientious Objector
If the person has not been immunized because of the conscientiously held beliefs of the parent/guardian of the minor child (or of the emancipated person), the parent/guardian (or emancipated person) must submit a notarized statement signed by the minor child's parent/guardian (or by the emancipated person) to the school or child care facility specifying the immunization(s) is not required.

http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/idepc/immunize/laws/exemption.html (http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/idepc/immunize/laws/exemption.html)

But the safest way to do it is to file the exemption to cover ALL vaccines and just do not inform the school about which ones you have had done.
A woman called LongIsland at MDC would be able to explain it all better.


With regard to catching the CP, you may have to look for it. There are number of different ways to find these "Pox Parties."
On the other hand, the CP vax sheds so he has some chance of catching it from a recently vaccinated classmate, or they can get it from anyone with shingles as well- it is the same virus.

[NYN]

One thing I wonder about his generation is that there aren't kids to catch it from at school like we had.
my mother is a public school teacher and every year there is a chicken pox outbreak from vaccinated children giving it to other children who are also vaccinated. i suppose that unvaccinated children catch it as well but my mother has no record of that. she just knows that the parents come to pick their kids up from school and ultimately always say "but I don't understand it, he was vaccinated for this when he was little." :rolleyes:

[LyLMyssChaos]

As someone who selectively vaccinates, the ones that we have chosen to not do are Hep B, Flu, Chickenpox, and the MMR. Now I need to look into Hep A and the new cervical cancer one. I know that here they require all 6th grade girls to get it if they are in school, but I am just not comfortable enough with this vaccine and it's use in children to subject my daughter to it. We'll see how I feel in 8 years and maybe she'll get it then.

[HGMorgann]

Lylmyss As another "selective" mom (due mostly for religious reasons), we won't do Hep A because of the abortion issue.

http://www.cogforlife.org/fetalvaccines.htm

[LyLMyssChaos]

Lylmyss As another "selective" mom (due mostly for religious reasons), we won't do Hep A because of the abortion issue.

http://www.cogforlife.org/fetalvaccines.htm

THANK YOU for that!!! We are now with a doctor who is okay with not vac-ing, and I just heard about Hep A yesterday, so I haven't had a chance to look into it. Ya know what's funny? My ped. actually suggested that we don't vaccinate for Chicken Pox. Her answer was "I have to tell you it's available and I have to tell you the risks of not doing it, and I am even supposed to suggest that you get it, but if it were my child? I wouldn't."

[Delaney21]

MMR Question:

Dr. Cave recommends splitting up the shot into 3 different shots, but my doctor said they don't make the vaccines individually like that so she can't even order it. Is that true?

[jh124]

From yesterday's Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/08/AR2007010801254.html

It's about the current requirement in MD, but has useful information.

Once accepted without question as a parental responsibility, immunization has lost the urgency that used to propel it, Wexler and others say, in part because mass vaccination has been so successful.

Most parents have never seen or heard of children who went blind from measles, deaf from mumps or suffered overwhelming infection from other childhood diseases such as haemophilus influenza.

Some of the skepticism about the need to vaccinate is attributable to what many health officials say are persistent unsubstantiated myths about childhood vaccines that circulate on the Internet: that the dangers of vaccines outweigh their benefits, that they cause autism and other serious ailments or that they encourage promiscuity.

Much of the controversy has swirled around mercury, which was once used as a preservative for the vaccine against measles, mumps and rubella known as the MMR.

In 19 states, lawmakers have made it easier in recent years for parents to opt out of vaccinations based on a "personal belief exemption" that in some states may be obtained simply by signing a waiver. (In the District, Maryland and Virginia, exemptions are permitted for religious or medical reasons, such as a severe allergy to a vaccine component.)

Several years ago when Maryland began requiring the chickenpox vaccine for entry into kindergarten and elementary school, some parents were misinformed that the shot contained tissue from aborted fetuses, recalled Donna Mazyck, a school health services specialist for the state. (The District requires chickenpox and hepatitis B shots for all students, while Virginia requires hepatitis B shots for all and chickenpox vaccinations for those born after Dec. 31, 1996.)

[HGMorgann]

Varicella was made using an aborted male fetus.

http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic2/varivax.htm

Taken from the Merck sheet:http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/v/varivax/varivax_pi.pdf
"VARIVAX, when reconstituted as directed, is a sterile preparation for subcutaneous administration.
Each 0.5 mL dose contains the following: a minimum of 1350 PFU (plaque forming units) of Oka/Merck
varicella virus when reconstituted and stored at room temperature for 30 minutes, approximately 25 mg of
sucrose, 12.5 mg hydrolyzed gelatin, 3.2 mg sodium chloride, 0.5 mg monosodium L-glutamate, 0.45 mg
of sodium phosphate dibasic, 0.08 mg of potassium phosphate monobasic, 0.08 mg of potassium chloride;
residual components of MRC-5 cells including DNA and protein; and trace quantities of sodium phosphate
monobasic, EDTA, neomycin, and fetal bovine serum. The product contains no preservative"

That (bolded part) is not okay with me.

delaney My doctor is able to get it split up. Your doctor is mistaken. Try calling your health department and see if they can order it for you. I've heard that works for some mothers.

[DianeCourt]

Read this in our paper yesterday:

Whooping cough is coming back (http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070109/LIFESTYLE02/701090390/1040/LIFESTYLE03)

[Rico'sAlice]

Gardasil- Adverse Reactions (http://www.medalerts.org/vaersdb/findfield.php?LOWAGE=&HIGHAGE=&SEX=&STATE=&PRIOR_VAX=&VAX_DATE_LOW=&VAX_DATE_HIGH=&CUR_ILL=&VAX=HPV4&VAXDOSE=&VAXMAN=&VAXROUTE=&VAXLOT=&VAXSITE=&ONSET_DATE_LOW=&ONSET_DATE_HIGH=&REPORT_DATE_LOW=&REPORT_DATE_HIGH=&SYMPTOMS=&HISTORY=&L_THREAT=&ER_VISIT=&DIED=&HOSPITAL=&DEATH_DATE_LOW=&DEATH_DATE_HIGH=&X_STAY=&RECOVD=&LAB_DATA=&DISABLE=&OTHER_MEDS=&V_ADMINBY=&V_FUNDBY=&PAGENO=1&PERPAGE=10)
Was reading through this earlier today & thought I'd share.
Obviously due to extreme underreporting (as even the CDC admits) the number of reports don't tell us too much, but the types of reactions are interesting. Sounds like a lot of fainting going on.:confused:
It's kind-of interesting to see reports from a vax that lots of older children/young adults are getting because they are able to notice & report reactions that may not be as obvious with an infant.
It's also nice (for research purposes, not for those harmed, of course) that (b/c of the age thing) this vax is often given solo so that one doesn't have to wonder so much about which vax caused what.
I was just surprised (although I shouldn't be) at the number of HPV+ women who got the vax. Didn't they (their doctors) read the results from the trials that showed this was likely to cause the HPV to develop into cervical cancer? Well probably not. :(


Kanga- I know there is a general link to VAERS in one of the first pages, but maybe you could copy this link into the Gardasil blurb since sometimes it is hard to search for the right thing.

[Kanga]

I added the link.

I was just surprised (although I shouldn't be) at the number of HPV+ women who got the vax. Didn't they (their doctors) read the results from the trials that showed this was likely to cause the HPV to develop into cervical cancer? Well probably not.


I knew that would happen. I wouldn't be surprised if the HPV rate goes up after the vaccine is in widespread use for awhile.

[Toonces]

I'm very surprised by that as well. I have HPV and DH read about the vax online when it first came out and he told me about it putting HPV women at higher risk for cervical cancer. Obviously this information was readily available. :confused: :(

[Kanga]

I'm not for sure, but I think it's listed on the insert as a contraindiction on the insert.

[savannahgrl]

hi, this was on our local news last night. Do any of you know anything about this?

Children Shot Requirements Could Drop by Seven

The number of shots children have to take could be reduced by a new vaccination...

FDA advisors are recommending the use of the "Pentacel" vaccine.. to protect against Diptheria, Tetanus, Whooping Cough, Polio, and the bacterial infection that can cause Meningitis, Pneumonia, and Arthritis.

That means seven less shots infants and toddlers have to endure.

The FDA is not required to accept the advisors' recommendation... but it usually does.

[Rico'sAlice]

Pentacel is the DTaP plus IPV & HiB.
Sanofi Press Release (http://www.vaccineshoppe.com/secure/pdfs/FLA_NewPediComboVaccine_260905.pdf)

Do you have a specific question? There is so much to be said that it is hard to just tell you "everything I know."

But here are some thoughts and some data to start with.


1) The language they use seems like it is designed to trick parents. As it is many parents leave a Drs office feeling like thier child "only" got three vaccines, but they actually had three "sticks" or "needles" but actually had 5 different vaccines. This will just make it worse/more confusing.
Parents might remember that their first child got 3 shots at their xyz appointment and not the second child is also getting three shots, but actually they've added two more new vaxs to the schedule and combined others is it's really more. So if you got Pentacel on the same day as MMR&V you could get 9 vaxs in 2 shots.

For parents who do want to vaccinate selectively or space shots out this would make it more difficult. It is really hard already for some people to get separate mumps, measles, & rubella vaxs. The more that combo shots become the standard the more effort one must go through to get a single shot.
(Slightly OT- I remember having to call 6 different vets to get solo parvo & distemper vaxes for my dogs, b/c normally puppies get these five-in-one shots. It wouldn't have been possible if I hadn't been so highly motivated and had just blindly gone to the vet.)

I'm going to have to go check the vax schedule to figure out how they come up with 7 less jabs. Because they are reducing it by 2 per visit. And seven is an odd number. So I guess you actually get one additional dose of either HiB or Polio. I think it's IPV. That's normally just a 3 shot series?

2) Assuming you believe in the effectiveness of the individual vaccines, there are questions about how the combo affects that.

Data showed the response to the Pentacel vaccine was inferior to the response to other vaccines for one of the components to prevent pertussis, Food and Drug Administration staff said. The response to Haemophilus influenzae type b, or Hib, was inconsistent in two studies, the staff also said.

http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/07/briefing/2007-4275B1-00-index.htm

I'll go do some more looking.

[Rico'sAlice]

OK, so this has been available from the same company under different names in other countries already.

http://www.vaclib.org/news/2006/pentacel.htm
SUNDAY EXPRESS (UK) MAY 14 2006
FRONT PAGE STORY
ALERT OVER NEW 5-IN-1 BABY JABS
EXCLUSIVE By Lucy Johnston
HEALTH EDITOR
Brain damage fears after trial results show that two-thirds of patients experience bad reaction
Babies given the new five-in-one jab face a risk of convulsions, brain damage or even death.

Results of medical trials by the firm which makes the vaccine have revealed that the "superdose" vaccination, which was introduced 18 months ago, can have serious side-effects.

The five-in-one is designed to protect children against diphtheria, tetanus, whooping cough, Hib influenza and polio in a single shot.

Evidence from the vaccine's manufacturers, Sanofi Pasteur, shows that in clinical trials 64 per cent of 451 babies given the Pediacel jab experienced bad reactions. Ten per cent of these were "moderate to severe".

These included convulsions, loss of consciousness and high-pitched or persistent inconsolable crying.

Other studies showed that components of the vaccine can cause breathing difficulties, blue discolouration of the skin due to lack of oxygen, swelling of the brain, low blood pressure and extreme allergic shock.

I can not find any information anywhere that would indicate that the vax has been reformulated or somehow made safer for it's US debut. But will keep my eyes open for it.:cool:

[savannahgrl]

For parents who do want to vaccinate selectively or space shots out this would make it more difficult. It is really hard already for some people to get separate mumps, measles, & rubella vaxs. The more that combo shots become the standard the more effort one must go through to get a single shot.

That's exactly what I was thinking. My DS is on a delayed vaccination schedule and we space them, so I was thinking that this would interfere with that. I'm sure that since this is so new (and currently only being discussed) that I will not have to worry about it with him, but for future children I imagine that it will be an issue.

Thanks so much for the feedback. I posted it here because I know that all of you are very up to date and knowledgeable on the subject. Thank you.

[BeachBum]

Can you guys help me find some info on DTaP vs. splitting it up?

DS is nearly 17 mo and we are just starting to vax this week. We are going to start with HIB then Prevnar 6 weeks later. She said that 6 weeks seemed to be the magic number to have a response to the vax, clear it from the system and return the immune system to normal.

The order my ped suggested was
HIB
Prevnar
Mesles
DTaP
Polio (only because we want to travel outside the US)
DTaP
Polio
Mumps
DTaP
Polio
Rubella
etc.

I would be interested also to hear what your "schedule" is if you are selectively or delaying vax.

I'm so glad that someone (Kanga I think) suggested the Finding Your Tribe area at MDC. I found my new Ped through them. Although she still advocates vax, she seems to be more informed and concerned with *how* and *when* we vax than my previous ped.

[jh124]

GAh, this thread is designed to scare the heck out of anyone who, believe it or not, might actually want information about vaccines - not why they should delay or not get them.

[allyray231]

GAh, this thread is designed to scare the heck out of anyone who, believe it or not, might actually want information about vaccines - not why they should delay or not get them.


jh I don't think that is the case-It is all about getting the BEST info you can and then making a choice for your and your child. No one on this thread, IMO, has pressured anyone to do one or the other I think. It is just a good source of info.

Before my DS was born, DH and I did our research and asked our questions. For us, we choose to vac on schedule. That is what was best for us.

[Rico'sAlice]

Hopefully, I can manage to share some info with you on this without being too pushy. ;)


Can you guys help me find some info on DTaP vs. splitting it up?

I can not find anything that indicates you can get the D, T & aP as separate components for children.

DS is nearly 17 mo and we are just starting to vax this week. We are going to start with HIB then Prevnar 6 weeks later. She said that 6 weeks seemed to be the magic number to have a response to the vax, clear it from the system and return the immune system to normal.

Did your ped offer you any evidence for that statement? I'm curious what her definition of a "response" is.


The order my ped suggested was
HIB
Prevnar
Mesles
DTaP
Polio (only because we want to travel outside the US)
DTaP
Polio
Mumps
DTaP
Polio
Rubella
etc.

You say this is the "order" your ped suggested. As far as which vaxs are included/excluded is it based on what your Dr. suggested or one that you came up with after researching the vaxs and the diseases they are marketed as preventing?
[As with all selective vaxers, I am always very interested to hear what evidence made you decide upon including XYZ compared with JKL. But, obviously you are under no obligation to share that information or justify anything to me.
Obviously, I disagree with this schedule. ;) I found evidence that convinced me not to get these vax without even really considering adverse reactions. However, that is not the information you have asked for here and I really don't want to jump all over you.However, if at any point you would like to have a more in depth discussion about any of these specific diseases, I would be thrilled to do so.]

There is an etc. at the end. How many DTaP doses are you planning on getting? I would definitely be wary of giving a 4th and 5th dose.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5201a1.htm
Safety Assessment After Whole Cell Versus Acellular Pertussis-Containing Vaccines

Concerns regarding the safety of DTP vaccines led to a gradual introduction of acellular pertussis-containing vaccines in the United States. In December 1991, FDA licensed the first DTaP vaccine for use in the United States (36). Shortly thereafter, a second DTaP formulation was also licensed (37). Both DTaP vaccines were licensed for use only as the fourth and fifth doses of the DTP series recommended for children aged 15 months--7 years. In July 1996, FDA approved the first DTaP vaccine for infants (38).

VAERS reports from 1991 (when whole cell pertussis vaccines were used exclusively) through 2001 (when acellular pertussis vaccines were used predominantly) documented that the overall vaccine-specific reporting rates of both serious and nonserious reports for DTaP had decreased to less than one half of that for DTP among children aged <7 years (Table 10). In comparison with all whole cell pertussis-containing vaccines (DTP and DTPH), the overall nonserious adverse events reporting rate for DTaP vaccines was approximately 40% lower (10.5 versus 16.8 reports per 100,000 net doses distributed). Although reduction in adverse reporting rates is suggestive of a safer vaccine, such comparisons must be interpreted cautiously because reporting rates cannot be viewed as incidence rates. Two studies have documented an improved safety profile of DTaP vaccines based on review of VAERS data from 1991--1993 among children and 1995--1998 among infants (39,40). The decreasing trends for selected systemic adverse events (e.g., fever) and neurologic reactions (e.g., seizures) continued to be observed during 1999--2001 (Figures 6 and 7). However, an increase in the number of reports concerning injection-site reactions was detected by the end of this surveillance period (Figure 8). The increase is more prominent among the recipients of booster doses of DTaP (fourth and fifth dose). This finding is consistent with the results of a recent study that documented an increase in the risk of extensive local reactions in recipients of fourth and fifth doses of the DTaP vaccines (41).


I would be interested also to hear what your "schedule" is if you are selectively or delaying vax.
There is a section of the vax forum at MDC specifically for delayed/selective vaxing that you may find helpful to read.

[Kanga]

Beachbum - What are your reasons for wanting to split up the DTaP? Are you wanting to do only some of it (such as just pertussis and not diptheria or tetanus), or are you wanting it split to avoid multiple diseases in one shot?

baby's up, I'll bbl.

[BeachBum]

Thanks Alice.
There is no need to worry about being too pushy with me. I may not follow what you tell me to do, but I will always consider it. I'm so glad to have access to info so that I can make the best decisions for us.

My primary concern with Vax, is that I feel like DS has less than optimal genes regarding auto immune diseases and autism. I do not believe that vax alone cause either of these things, but I do think they can be triggers in situations where people were more prone. I have an auto immune disease (MS), and autistic children our (large) extended family.

I also feel like I am totally unable to make a good decision because the info that I need isn't out there. I think that important decision making criteria just haven't been studied because it is not in the interest (profit making) of pharm companies to do in depth research.

In someways, I feel like DS is almost 2 yrs old and his risk for catching/having severe complications from several of these diseases decreases dramatically--why do the vax now? But I also feel like his immune system is much better developed and much more able to handle the vax. And if he doesn't have a reaction I will sleep easier. I constantly worry that he will get a disease I that could have been prevented with vax. I feel like because the diseases aren't seen often, that it is very likely that he would not be diagnosed early, or be misdiagnosed. Additionally we like to travel and I feel like taking DS out of the country unvaxed is significantly more risky than if we just stayed home.

We are starting with HIB and Prevnar simply because that is what my ped suggested. At one time I had done a lot of research, but honestly I've forgotten what I learned. I just feel so overwhelmed.

To answer Kanga's question, I wanted to split it for safety of not doing 3 vax at once. It is my understanding that this vax is one that has a high reaction response.

[Kanga]

Thanks Alice.
There is no need to worry about being too pushy with me. I may not follow what you tell me to do, but I will always consider it. I'm so glad to have access to info so that I can make the best decisions for us.

My primary concern with Vax, is that I feel like DS has less than optimal genes regarding auto immune diseases and autism. I do not believe that vax alone cause either of these things, but I do think they can be triggers in situations where people were more prone. I have an auto immune disease (MS), and autistic children our (large) extended family.

I also feel like I am totally unable to make a good decision because the info that I need isn't out there. I think that important decision making criteria just haven't been studied because it is not in the interest (profit making) of pharm companies to do in depth research.

In someways, I feel like DS is almost 2 yrs old and his risk for catching/having severe complications from several of these diseases decreases dramatically--why do the vax now? But I also feel like his immune system is much better developed and much more able to handle the vax. And if he doesn't have a reaction I will sleep easier. I constantly worry that he will get a disease I that could have been prevented with vax. I feel like because the diseases aren't seen often, that it is very likely that he would not be diagnosed early, or be misdiagnosed. Additionally we like to travel and I feel like taking DS out of the country unvaxed is significantly more risky than if we just stayed home.

We are starting with HIB and Prevnar simply because that is what my ped suggested. At one time I had done a lot of research, but honestly I've forgotten what I learned. I just feel so overwhelmed.

To answer Kanga's question, I wanted to split it for safety of not doing 3 vax at once. It is my understanding that this vax is one that has a high reaction response.

DTaP is one of the most reactive ones. As RicosAlice stated, you can't really split the DTaP. There is DT (up to 7 years of age) Td (7+) and DTaP, but no just plain P, D, and T. By splitting up a vax, you're only getting one disease at a time, but then you're also adding in extra toxins, chemicals, preservatives, etc by having additional shots.

If it were me, I'd start with the ones you feel your dc is most at risk for catching, and also to have a serious complication from (more than just a fever and a rash).

[Rico'sAlice]

Thanks Alice.
There is no need to worry about being too pushy with me. I may not follow what you tell me to do, but I will always consider it. I'm so glad to have access to info so that I can make the best decisions for us.

Whether or not you would follow it- I don't even want to tell you what to do. I don't think it is very productive or empowering.

I do want to offer you more information, but it is hard to figure out where to start. I don't mean this to be insulting at all, but you don't really offer much in the way of specifics.
It sounds like you are still somewhat afraid to vax, but you are also afraid not to vax. That makes me sad to hear fear. Sorry, I know that sounds condescending, and I don't mean it that way. It's hard to word this right. But basically you sound like you still have so many questions.
I get the feeling that if you do vax, and your son has a reaction that you will feel guilty and that you made the wrong choice. Or if he has a complications from lets say rubella then you will regret having not gotten that vax.

I personally could not feel comfortable going forward with a decision with that amount of doubt in my mind. I would find it worthwhile to go back over the research until I was sure of my decision.


I also feel like I am totally unable to make a good decision because the info that I need isn't out there. I think that important decision making criteria just haven't been studied because it is not in the interest (profit making) of pharm companies to do in depth research.

Do you have a notion of what that criteria might be? Or what additional evidence you would need to make a (good, confident) decision?

These are the questions I felt the need to answer.
After going through them, I am at a point now that there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that (for example) should my child die from a chicken pox-related complication that it will not make me regret not getting the varicella vax. I might regret other choices I made on the path that led to their death- whatever they may be- but not vaxing against CP won't be one of them.

I'm not saying that you will come to the same conclusion, but rather, that with enough info you should feel like you can *know* you are making the right decision. That even though the vax caused your child seizures it was worth it to prevent him from getting Ebola. OK, I made that one up. But you get the idea.
If you value their opinion then certainly you should involve your doctor in the process.
Ask them to give you information on how they came up with the suggested schedule. Why vaccinate against mumps? Why HiB first? Why start at 17 mo? Etc.
If they don't give you written info then take notes. That way you can go home and look up what they said.


So here's what I would do. I would look at each individual disease and try to decide why I wanted to vax against it. What are the chances of getting the disease? What would be the consequence of acquiring the disease? How likely are complications and what factors affect one's likeliness to develop those complications? What treatments (western, eastern, nutritional, etc.) are available should my child get this diseases? What are the benefits of getting this disease?
And, while you approach each one consider whether or not you think YOU should get a "booster" shot.
----
Then for each vax look at the efficacy rate. Then look at the given side effects as well as reported adverse reactions. Consider the length of time vax has been on the market. If you are vaxing what should/shouldn't you do to minimize reactions? (Hint. Look into vax reactions & tylenol, and vax reactions & sodium ascorbate)
-----
And for any you decide you want to get, there is the question of when.
Why 17 mo compared to 6 mo or 3 years?
At what age is the immune system "mature"? At what age do patients stop having reactions that involve neurological damage or the development of auto-immune disorders? At what ages is XYZ disease more/less dangerous?

--------------------
For me, there were also important religious questions to consider. Also, issues of children's autonomy. But I can't say what form those questions might take for you.
----------------------------------

Anyway, if you decide you want answers to those questions (or something similar) and get stuck I'd be happy to point you towards the research I found to answer them. You'd have to judge my sources on an individual basis.
Much of it is from the CDC. Not their information/PR pages, but raw data, the Pink Book, and stuff like that. You could also spend time at pubmed.


OK, this is long, so I'll stop now. :)

[ellidew]

I hope this is the right place to ask this question...

Did anyones else see a change in bm's after getting vax'd? Ds had his 4 month vax last Tuesday and from Wednesday on he's had anywhere from 4-7 bm's within a 24 hour period. He was only having 1 per day and they were a normal consistency, not too runny and not too thick. After his vax they started out stringy then the consistency of cottage cheese and there were a couple on Thurs-Fri that were mucousy. There was one on Friday that had purple chunks in it too. I'm not worried about it because he seems fine and doesn't seem to be bothered by it. I just assume it's a vax reaction. I'm just wondering how long it lasted for others.

[Rico'sAlice]

I hope this is the right place to ask this question...

Did anyones else see a change in bm's after getting vax'd? Ds had his 4 month vax last Tuesday and from Wednesday on he's had anywhere from 4-7 bm's within a 24 hour period. He was only having 1 per day and they were a normal consistency, not too runny and not too thick. After his vax they started out stringy then the consistency of cottage cheese and there were a couple on Thurs-Fri that were mucousy. There was one on Friday that had purple chunks in it too. I'm not worried about it because he seems fine and doesn't seem to be bothered by it. I just assume it's a vax reaction. I'm just wondering how long it lasted for others.


What did he get specifically? (Not all states/docs have the same list for "four month vax.")

I know I've read this before, but can't remember specifically what it was associated with. If I knew specifically what you got it would be easier to dig up the common reactions.
Did he get the rotavirus vax? (drops) That one is definitely associated with causing bowel/digestion problems.

And did you change anything else at time? Diet, go on/off abx, etc.
Also, he could have picked something up being at the docs office.

[Sevilla]

I wondered about it being a reaction to the Rotateq vax too. I would guess the reaction should stop within 7-10 days maximum. HTH!

[ellidew]

I don't have the vax list in front of me so i'll post it tomorrow. We opted out of the 2nd and 3rd doses of Rotateq so that can't be it.

Today he only had 2 bm's which is a big improvement over 4-7! We'll see how tomorrow goes and I'll post a list of the vax.

We started oatmeal on Friday but that was 3 days after his doctors appt and at the time we just figured it was a reaction to the vax.

[Rico'sAlice]

Not to ge too off track, but is there a specific reason you are starting solids so early?

I understand that the change in BMs started 2 days before the oatmeal. But if the vax caused the problem, by doing such an early introduction of solids during this same time period, it will be more difficult to know if the reaction is continuing or if it is a problem from the solids or something else entirely, especially when the baby has a history of digestion issues.

[ellidew]

Rico'sAlice- We started oatmeal because ds went from eating a normal amount (32 oz) to over 50 oz per day and did so for over 3 weeks consistently. Some days he ate close to 60 oz. Some days he'd eat 8 oz and then an hour and half later he'd scream and scream and scream and we'd try all the usual colic/acid reflux remedies and nothing would work except giving him another bottle and he'd suck all 8 oz of that down before you could take the bottle out of his mouth without him screaming. After talking to the ped she suggested we start him on cereal but we waited to talk to the ped gi and she said to start him on cereal right away and not to wait.

She seemed to think that his post vax symptoms were caused by either the vax still being in his system or that he caught a mild case of rotovirus and she said that either way it'd probably be gone by the end of the weekend. His eating decreased (a day or two after the vax) when his bm's increased but during the feeding increase over 3 weeks his bm's never changed. The ped gi thought that once the vax or rotovirus cleared up that he'd go back to eating 50+ oz and she didn't think that was healthy. I should've asked more questions but i was overwhelmed with everything else going on. Afterwards dh and i were talking about it and we just assummed it was right up there with an adult consumming too much liquid in any given time period.

The idea is that the cereal would fill him more and he'd eat closer to the 32 oz per day guideline. So far it has and i noticed his formula consumption increased on Sunday but not to 50 oz.

I guess we could take him off of oatmeal and see what happens.

The bm's decreased yesterday and he only had 2. 1 in the morning and 1 in the afternoon.

Here is a list of his vaccinations.

DT (Diptheria, Tetanus, Pertussis, Whooping Cough)
Polio
Haemophilus Influenzae (type b) (Hib)
Hepatitus B
Pneumoccoccal Conjugate

eta: Regarding formula consumption: While eating 50-60 oz per day ds only gained 6 ounces over 2 weeks. He had been to the doctor a week after the increase in formula (for an AR follow up, i believe) and we both agreed it was probably a growth spurt. He was then back for his 4 month well baby when he was weighed again. So he wasn't even gaining some massive amount while he was eating all of that.

[allyray231]

ellidew I would make a note of it and when he gets these vaxs again-see if has the same reaction. My son gets a reaction from the HIB. Both times he had a high fever for -the last time he got it (15 months) he had a fever for 5 days. Both times afterwards he broke out in a rash for a day. The docs tried to tell me he got a cold or a virus but I KNEW it was from the vax. I would make a note and see what happens next time

Glad he is doing better!

[ellidew]

Thanks allyray. I have a google calendar set up for him so i'll mark it with the symptoms for future reference. Good idea!

[jh124]

My son's stool changed post-vax. For a day or so his BM were different. It's been a year, so I don't remember the details, but I remember noting the cause and effect. No biggie, kid is fine now.

[Rico'sAlice]

This isn't really anything surprising, but happened to notice this article today.

Chickenpox vaccine effects fade over time
POSTED: 5:47 p.m. EDT, March 14, 2007
http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/03/14/chickenpox.vaccine.reut/index.html

BOSTON, Massachusetts (Reuters) -- Merck's chickenpox vaccine Varivax not only loses its effectiveness after a while, but it has also changed the profile of the disease in the population, U.S. researchers reported Wednesday.

The study confirmed what doctors widely knew -- that the vaccine's protection does not last long.

And with fewer natural cases of the disease going around, unvaccinated children or children in whom the first dose of the vaccine fails to work have been catching the highly contagious disease later in life, when the risk of severe complications is greater, they said.

"If you're unvaccinated and you get it later in life, there's a 20-times greater risk of dying compared to a child, and a 10 to 15 times greater chance of getting hospitalized," said Jane Seward of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta, Georgia, who worked on the study.



Not surprisingly the recommendation to solve this problem is adding more booster shots. :rolleyes:

[Kanga]

And they're surprised?:rolleyes:

[Toonces]

Not surprisingly the recommendation to solve this problem is adding more booster shots. :rolleyes:

:bang head on wall:

[DianeCourt]

I find it interesting that it continually seems to be OK in this thread to indirectly bash those that choose to follow the CDC's recommendations for childhood vaccinations. However, I'm sure I would likely be jumped all over if I tried to do the same thing, but from the opposing viewpoint. This thread screams "double standard." When are you going to appropriately title this thread as Anti-vaccination Information?

The purpose of this thread: A central source on information of vaccines and the diseases they prevent. It is for those that choose to vaccinate themselves and/or their children on schedule, not at all, or anywhere inbetween.

I wholeheartedly disagree - this thread is clearly not a place for those that choose to vaccinate on schedule.

BTW, my ped told us about the Varicella booster that's now recommended at DD's 15 month WBV. I will be one of those uninformed & irresponsible parents who will see to it that my daughter gets this immunization on time.

[Marisa]

Diane -- I find myself in a tricky spot too, since we chose to get some of Joey's vaxes on schedule, delay others, and skip a few entirely. Where do we fall, since I'm clearly not "anti-vax"... KWIM?

I'm skeptical about the chicken pox vaccine for the reasons shown in the article quoted above. I think it would be great if it were really effective, but time has shown that it simply is not. Boosters are the solution? -- well, that makes things a heck of a lot harder for everyone. What happens as we get older and we don't go to the dr. as often? What if my child grows up to be like my DH, who needs to have his hand held to schedule a dr. appointment and put off going to the dentist for four years? (And still no cavities, I can't stand him! :)) I mean, what happens when our babies are in their 20s and 30s and need boosters every several years? Am I going to be calling my son at college and nagging him? Have we really done the right thing by protecting them now, rather than letting them get the wild strain of the pox and having a better shot at lifetime immunity?

These are the questions rolling around in my head... I'm starting to catch Joey up on a few things that he hasn't had yet, since he'll be starting preschool in the fall, and I'm really torn about the varicella. I hope I can achieve some clarity on this before September.

[Delta]

Have we really done the right thing by protecting them now, rather than letting them get the wild strain of the pox and having a better shot at lifetime immunity?Exactly.

Honestly, I think the CP vax is starting to look kinda silly. Our kids aren't getting it. I mean, what I fear the most about them getting the actual disease is having to call the ped's office. Actually, our ped wouldn't blink as he leaves the decision to us entirely and give exactly 0 pressure.

[Delaney21]

Is there a website where I can look up the number of people who get certain diseases each year? For example, how many polio cases in the US in 2006?

[PinkMartini]

However, I'm sure I would likely be jumped all over if I tried to do the same thing, but from the opposing viewpoint.

Oh yea, you can bet your ass you would be :rolleyes:

Another vote for changing the title of this thread to what the agenda here clearly is....

[alisong]

Is there a website where I can look up the number of people who get certain diseases each year? For example, how many polio cases in the US in 2006?Try Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (MMWR) on the CDC website. It's not the most user friendly, but has a lot of useful information. The report comes out weekly (as the name would imply ;) ), but tables contain cumulative statistics for the past five years. There were, by the way, no cases of polio in the US in 2006.

http://wonder.cdc.gov/mmwr/mmwrmorb.asp