Vaccine Information

[Delaney21]

My pediatrician is claiming that she has 5 patients that got polio in the past few years (in response to me questioning the need for the polio vax). I questioned her on it, and she stuck firm to it so I'm trying to find something to back it up that she's stretching the truth.

[jh124]

My pediatrician is claiming that she has 5 patients that got polio in the past few years (in response to me questioning the need for the polio vax). I questioned her on it, and she stuck firm to it so I'm trying to find something to back it up that she's stretching the truth.


I'm the biggest pro-vax person on the boards. Howevah, we have eradicated polio in the U.S., but perhaps your dr has a thriving practice in New Delhi? Rotary International has tried to eradicate polio in the world, and did an excellent job in the western world. It is running into problems in Africa and Asia.

Seriously, you should vax your kids. But you should also find a ped who isn't a big fat liar.

http://www.polioeradication.org/content/general/current_monthly_sitrep.asp

1991 - The last indigenous case of polio occurs in the Americas in September. He is a three-year old boy called Luis Fermin Tenorio living in Junin, Northern Peru.

1994 - The Americas are certified polio-free by the International Commission for the Certification of Polio Eradication.

[Rico'sAlice]

My pediatrician is claiming that she has 5 patients that got polio in the past few years (in response to me questioning the need for the polio vax). I questioned her on it, and she stuck firm to it so I'm trying to find something to back it up that she's stretching the truth.

I am positive that polio is nationally reportable. Therefore your ped has definitely been negligent if she is telling the truth- or even if she thinks she's telling the truth. The CDC reports no cases in the US since 1999.
(There were clinical cases in the US throughout the 80's and 90's originating with the OPV.)

[Sevilla]

Giving Tylenol after vaccinations?

I have heard conflicting reports on whether it is advisable to give Tylenol after shots. I have heard a lot of parents say that it helps their kids with discomfort, but i have also heard it can reduce the vaxes effectiveness. Does anyone have any info?

[dionysia]

It's aspirin or Motrin that can reduce the effectiveness.

I read it in Baby 411, I think. Let me find a source.

Di

[Rico'sAlice]

This is WRT to NSAIDs which includes aspirin. It's just the abstract though, you have to pay to see the whole article.

http://www.jimmunol.org/cgi/content/abstract/177/11/7811

------------
And in English...;)
http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/pr/News/story.cfm?id=1318

[hub1176]

I had a parent call me regarding daycare and on the phone they asked me if I had a problem with the fact they are on a delayed vax schedule. Since I'm full I just told her it wasn't an issue since it didn't matter..couldn't take them anyway. But I'm hearing more and more about parents who are either delaying the vax or not getting them at all. WITHOUT STARTING A DEBATE I just want to know what would be the reasons. Where do you get the info that made you chose what you did? Feel free to PM me if you don't feel like answering here.

[Sophia]

Here are some previous threads that might be helpful:

Vaccine Information (http://www.constantchatter.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24037)

Delaying vaxes after six months? (http://www.constantchatter.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3106)

Immunization Question - delaying (http://www.constantchatter.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1026)

[catmom]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's aspirin or Motrin that can reduce the effectiveness.

I have never heard this before! Anyone know why? I always give motrin the night after a shot.

[Kanga]

Where do you get the info that made you chose what you did?

These were some of the beginning questions for me

Why was I vaccinating in the first place?

What about the diseases was I afraid of? (and same for the vaccines)

Worst case scenario if my kids were to catch each disease and worse case scenario of getting the vaccine that prevents it. Along with the most likely scenario.

What could I do to prevent my children from getting the disease?

What could I do to lessen the risk of an adverse reaction if I continued to vaccinate?

I lurked a lot in the vaccine forum on mothering.com message boards. Just random stuff would be brought up that I had never thought of or had thought to question. The CDC pink book (http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/pink/def_pink_full.htm) is a great resource to find info on VPD. Also, 909shot.com (http://909shot.com/) is a good resource for school/daycare exemptions by state and vaccines. (although it is a pretty anti vax site so you won't find much info in favor of vax)

[AmyE]

On polio: wild polio was eradicated in the Americas. polio was not. POLIO IS STILL ACTIVE IN THE UNITED STATES AND THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE. Just not "wild" polio. Big difference - but the disease is still out there. There was an outbreak of polio in the Dominican Republic/Haiti (western hemisphere) while I was there in 1999-2001 that left several children paralyzed. There were a few cases of polio in the United States a few years ago, up in the upper Midwest. (I'd google it for you but I'm feeling lazy.) This is caused by something called "shedding" after people get vaccinated, and it is a threat to those who are under vaccinated or not vaccinated at all.

The problem is with travel - unless polio is eradicated worldwide, or we close and seal our borders - there is still a risk, which is why we in the US still have the polio vaccine on the regular CDC schedule, as opposed to say, the smallpox vaccine. That one is considered 'eradicated' worldwide, so we don't need vaxes.

If we didn't do the polio vaccine, you would probably not have shedding, and those unvax'd kids in the US would not have gotten polio. But then you run the risk from being exposed otherwise, like from your next door neighbor or the people just back from Safari or whatever...

It's a tough problem and people make different (rational) choices. My dad had polio, didn't end up paralyzed (one leg slightly smaller than the other, but not noticeable) but he wouldn't wish it on his worst enemy, even if it did not kill him or leave him disabled. I would have vax'ed my children even in the 'safest' of suburbia U. S. of A., because of my family's history and my own philosophy.

My kids are all totally vaccinated on an accelerated schedule. BUT, I live overseas in a developing country. In fact, my 2-year old just got the typhoid vaccine, and will get his rabies booster next year.

[ion]

I have read through a number of pages of this thread, but not all. I'd like to find out why people skip or delay or separate the MMR shot? My DS is almost a year and I'm trying to figure out what I want to do. Is the reaction the main reason people want to avoid this shot?

Are most pediatricians willing to separate it, or is it difficult to do this? Thanks!

[katmg]

ion - my understanding is that it can be difficult to get MMR separated out into individual shots. I don't know that each vaccination is even manufactured separately?

[RobynScott]

ion - my understanding is that it can be difficult to get MMR separated out into individual shots. I don't know that each vaccination is even manufactured separately?

I'm not an expert on this at all (in fact I have just started reading up on it) - but I was reading about this just last night in Baby 411 - I believe that you can get the shots separately - but they are not commonly done that way.

FTR - Baby 411 is very pro-vaccine.

[Rico'sAlice]

I have never heard this before! Anyone know why? I always give motrin the night after a shot.

I think the article in the 2nd link explains it in fairly understandable terms.

http://www.constantchatter.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1258787&postcount=256

[katmg]

robyn - you're probably right. I think when I checked into it, the peds in my area don't buy the separated shots so it can be very difficult (impossible?) to get them here.

[Rico'sAlice]

I'd like to find out why people skip or delay or separate the MMR shot? My DS is almost a year and I'm trying to figure out what I want to do. Is the reaction the main reason people want to avoid this shot?


For some people this is a religious issue.

Some people are allergic to various vax ingredients.

Some people skip b/c they are worried about reactions from the MMR specifically and.or vax in general. Generally the concern if over not just "reactions" like some fever, crying, soreness, etc. but the more serious (and obviously less common) problems like permanent neurological damage, death, etc.

Some skip because they feel that actually having measles, mumps, and/or rubella as children is better for the child's overall health than not having them at that time. This is partly about life-long immunity vs. unspecified, but generally not life-long, length immunity from the vax. Also, there is correlation of decreased risks of certain cancers, skin conditions, etc. that go along with having had these diseases as children.


I will not be vaxing at all so I am not be the best one to answer on separating and/or delaying. But what I usually hear is along the lines of:

Separating:
Some places require 2 doses of measles, but only one of mumps & rubella, so people split to achieve this.

The other belief is that by giving more than one shot at a time is "too much" for the child's system to handle and either increases reactions and/or decreases immune response/efficacy of the vax. Different folks have different rationales and evidence for this.

In general, it seems people delay b/c they think that Xmonths/years marks some magical time when the child is no longer at risk or is at a much lesser risk of severe vaccine damage. This has to do with an idea of when the child's system is more developed. People will cite varying evidence to support their particular stance of 30mo vs. 4 yrs vs. 24mo., etc.

Others delay until after they are done breastfeeding.
----

Are most pediatricians willing to separate it, or is it difficult to do this? Thanks!

You definitely Can get M, M, & R separated, but not all Peds are readily willing to order them for you. If you live in a town where a lot of other parents are asking for monovalents you have a better chance of them being easily available.

[Marisa]

I had a parent call me regarding daycare and on the phone they asked me if I had a problem with the fact they are on a delayed vax schedule. Since I'm full I just told her it wasn't an issue since it didn't matter..couldn't take them anyway. But I'm hearing more and more about parents who are either delaying the vax or not getting them at all. WITHOUT STARTING A DEBATE I just want to know what would be the reasons. Where do you get the info that made you chose what you did? Feel free to PM me if you don't feel like answering here.

We made the decision to delay and/or skip some vaccines for the most part because I am concerned about the volume of foreign bodies that very small infants are routinely injected with. It's not that I question the value or efficacy of vaccines, it's that I feel that concerns for public health have gotten us into this system of injecting newborns with seven or more different vaccines at once. We have no idea what the long-term consequences of this might be.

I know that the reason for having so many shots at once basically boils down to the fact that many of these shots require two or three followup visits. At 2, 4, 6 months, most parents are still attending well-baby visits. As children get older, some parents become more lax about checkups. My mother (a neonatal nurse who holds a masters degree in Public Health) has basically told me that they want to get these kids vaccinated while they still know they have them, so they start in the hospital right after they're born.

I wanted Joey to get the right shots, but I wanted to take the time to see his reaction to each one, and to decide whether some of them were actually right for our family. As a SAHM, I had that option -- Joey was not exposed to other children on a regular basis until he was a toddler. Now he is starting preschool in September, and we are slowly catching him up on his required vaccines. He had his first two Hep B shots, for example, this month and last month. In another month or so he'll go back for the MMR. Over the summer he'll get the last Hep B. I believe that catches us up (except for the chicken pox, which I'm really hoping he won't have to get for preschool; I know it's required for kindergarten).

One of the benefits of waiting until age three is that his immune system is more fully developed and his body is so much bigger in general. He had mild reactions when he got his DTaP shots at under a year, but now he's had no reaction at all to his vaccines. I'm glad I had the luxury of waiting this long to let his body have the chance to grow and mature.

[mimieliza]

Marisa -

You mentioned that you are getting the HepB vaccine for Joey before he starts preschool. I'm torn about this one. Miranda's going to be starting daycare two days a week in June. I plan on having her up to date on DTaP, Hib and PCV, and to have at least started the IPV series. But I can't decide on HepB. I was initially going to wait until she was much older. I can't see how she could be exposed as an infant, but now that she's in daycare, I'm wondering if there's potential for exposure. I really don't want to add another series of potentially reactive injections before she's a year old, though. It's so hard to decide!

[HGMorgann]

Our office does them one at a time for all patients, so each kid is "delayed", but most of them are caught up by the time they are 2. Our office isn't holistic or anything - just a normal office associated with the hopsital here.

[mgrace]

Just saw this on Web MD, Pneumonia vaccine brings new challenge (http://www.webmd.com/news/20070424/pneumonia-vaccine-brings-new-challenge).

[Marisa]

Michelle -- I didn't see your question originally, sorry!

In our state (NJ) Hep B is required for entrance to public kindergarten, so it would have to be completed before age 5 (or so -- Joey will actually be over 5 1/2 when he starts K in 2009).

Since he's starting preschool, and he's over age three (which was my 'goal' as far as delaying some of these shots) I figured that I would slowly start getting him everything that's required by the public schools, assuming that his preschool would have the same requirements. (I really don't want to do the Varicella, so I'm going to call the preschool and see if I can continue to delay or if they require it).

It has nothing to do with whether I think he'll actually contract Hep B in preschool (I don't). It has everything to do with the fact that it's required by law in NJ, and as selective vaxers/delayers we don't really qualify for or want an exemption.

[mgrace]

Has anyone read What Your Dr May Not Tell You about Vaccinations by Stephanie Cave? I just started reading it and wondered if anyone had thoughts on it.

[Delaney21]

I read it and it scared me into wanting to delay all vaccinations. My sister (who doesn't have children) read it and is determined to never let a vaccine touch her future childer.

Unfortunately, I caved at DS's 4 month WBV and got all of the shots, which I really regret.

[mimieliza]

Thanks, Marisa. I think I'm going to wait on Hep B. She's started at a home daycare (just M and one other child) rather than a center so I don't have to think about required vaxes until she starts preschool.

[portlandbride]

mgrace I read it and was pretty disappointed in it myself. I don't know, I just thought the book would be better somehow. I'm not sure what I was hoping for, but it didn't really sway me one way or the other. I find the information over at MDC to be more valuable, although they are strongly anti-vax.

My DD#1 was on a delayed schedule and then hasn't had any shots since her 9 month visit. My DD#2 has not had any vaxes. I'm not sure what we're going to do in the future, but I am leaning towards no more vaxes at all.

[dana b]

does anyone know -- or marisa you may know since you've recently mentioned it if a preschool requires that a child be "up to date" on their vaccines, does that mean they need to have done all the rounds of each vaccine or is it okay if they've had at least one by the time school starts?

[Nigellas]

Has anyone read What Your Dr May Not Tell You about Vaccinations by Stephanie Cave? I just started reading it and wondered if anyone had thoughts on it.


I read it. It was a good starter book - it got me thinking about the issue. More info is definitely needed beyond it.

[portlandbride]

dana b I'd try Googling your states requirements. For instance, I googled "Utah, vaccines" which brought me to the Utah Dept. of Health Immunization Program webpage.
This is what it says:

IMMUNIZATION REQUIREMENTS FOR CHILDREN IN EARLY CHILDHOOD PROGRAMS

(includes children in a licensed day care center, nursery or preschool, child care facility, family home care, or Head Start Program)

Diphtheria
Tetanus
Pertussis
Polio
Measles
Mumps
Rubella
Haemophilus Influenzae type b

NOTE: Hepatitis A, Hepatitis B, Varicella and Pneumococcal vaccines are recommended, but are not required for students in early childhood programs.

Children attending early childhood programs are required to be immunized appropriately for age. This means a child has received all of the doses of each vaccine appropriate for his or her age, but is not considered "adequate for school entry". Children are to be immunized according to current immunization schedules.

Now I need to look up exemptions!

[Winter Biscuit]

Has anyone read What Your Dr May Not Tell You about Vaccinations by Stephanie Cave? I just started reading it and wondered if anyone had thoughts on it.

I have the book, read it (it's actually on my nightstand so I pick it up frequently), and it didn't sway me one way or another.

My thoughts on the book:

- I think it provides a good start to learning more about vaccinations, but I do not feel it should be the one and only resource that parents use to form their decisions to vax or not. I thought this book provided pretty basic info and did not provide enough info or make a strong enough case to sway me either way. Rather, it left me with even more questions (some of which I've researched further, others I haven't researched yet).

- there is a combination of fact and speculation/opinion in the book. For a book with such an alarmist title, I would have expected to see solid facts and no speculation/opinion.

- the information is a bit dated. I'm not saying that the info is not valid, but the book was published in 2001 which means that it was likely written in the year or two prior to the publishing date. And the research the author cites is even older. I'd really like to see a revision or update that includes info on what the current vaccines contain, references to more recent studies, etc.

- I actually found this book to PRO-vax (recommending that parents wait/delay rather than reject).

- the most important thing I got from this book was a reminder that it's OK to ask questions, that parents have choices, and that it's important to do your research so you can make informed choices

[Marisa]

dana -- in NJ they require that a child have all 'age-appropriate' vaxes, but there is a "provisional" admission for preschool. The child can be admitted if they have at least begun to receive the appropriate vaxes, at least the first shot in a series if applicable, and can show documentation that they are in the process of 'catching up'. They have no longer than 17 months from the date of admission to complete that process.

[Sevilla]

WinterBiscuit - ITA with your review of the book. I too was bothered by the speculation/conjecture and wish it was more updated to include the newer vaccines and research. I honestly find the CDC's 'pink book' to be a really helpful resource about the vaccines and diseases - their effectiveness, how to treat them, who is at risk, etc... (http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/pink/def_pink_full.htm

[LyLMyssChaos]

I just received a letter from our ped's office that said:
"The State of Michigan has contacted us regarding your child's immunization history. Your child is missing the following immunizations."

*snip*

"New State of Michigan requirements will require children to have a 4th Prevnar and two Varicella immunizations. Please contact our office to schedule this shot only appointment or sign and return the attatched "Refusal to Consent to Vaccination" form and return to our office. In order to be in compliance with the State of Michigan, we need this form signed and returned to our office ASAP!"

The refusal form states:
My child's health care provider has explained to me and I understand the following:

The purpose of the recommended vaccination
The risks and benefits of the recommended vaccination
The possible consequences of not allowing my child to receive the recommended vaccination, including contracting the illness the vaccine is intended to prevent and infecting others.
My doctor, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Academy of Family Physicians, and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have all strongly recommended that the vaccine be given.


The health care provider answered all of my questions.
I know that I may change my mind and accept vaccination for my child in the future.
I accept sole responsibility for any consequences as a result of my child not being vaccinated.
I acknowledge that I have read this document in it's entirety and fully understand it.


I even copied the bold and italics parts. Has anyone else ever gotten this kind of letter?

[Nigellas]

LMC - I had to sign that at my Ped's office when I refused vaxs. (I'm in MI too)

[Kanga]

LMC - I had to sign the same thing the last time we went the ped's office. You can get a revised one online though (search MDC for the link...it comes up quite a bit) that doesn't have the "failure to protect" wording or whatever it is that basically insinuates you are not providing your child with the proper care. I just crossed out teh wording and parts I didn't like though since I didn't have that with me.

[LyLMyssChaos]

Thanks so much for that info Kanga, I'm off to find it now!

[Smittenk]

I am expecting my first baby anytime now and I am soo overwhelmed with the whole vaccine thing. I have heard of people delaying them or choosing not to have them altogether...how do I know what is best?? Where do I start (besides reading this thread ;))

Any important highlights would be a great help to start me off with.

Thankyou!

[DianeCourt]

I am expecting my first baby anytime now and I am soo overwhelmed with the whole vaccine thing. I have heard of people delaying them or choosing not to have them altogether...how do I know what is best?? Where do I start (besides reading this thread ;))

Any important highlights would be a great help to start me off with.

Thankyou!

Don't use this thread as a singular source of information. IMO, I wouldn't even start off by reading this thread AT ALL. The viewpoints most often posted here are heavily skewed toward one side of the vaccination discussion. I'll leave it at that. ;)

[PinkMartini]

Don't use this thread as a singular source of information. IMO, I wouldn't even start off by reading this thread AT ALL. The viewpoints most often posted here are heavily skewed toward one side of the vaccination discussion. I'll leave it at that. ;)

Ditto that!

[Ericka_Jarett]

SmittenK - you and your husband have to decide what will be best for your child. This thread has some interesting info, but don't rely on it as your only source of info, do searches for yourself. In the hospital only vaccine they will want to give is the HepB shot, so you will have time to decide on the others.

For us, we chose to have Easton get vaccinated on the normal schedule and don't regret it one bit. He also got the rotavirus vaccine. I wouldn't change anything and will do the same with the twins. He will get all the vaccines but the varicella (chicken pox) We have never had an issue with him getting the shots. With the way viruses are reoccurring out of the blue sometimes, I like knowing we have gotten a vaccine to hopefully prevent Easton from ever getting the viruses.

Best wishes in your delivery and your decision.

[Kanga]

I started out by just lurking in the vaccination forum on MDC and researching the diseases she was supposed to get at her next visit and then the vaccines for those diseases (in particular, the safety and efficacy rates). The CDC pink book (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/pink-chapters.htm) is good place to start for the diseases. It has the symptoms, how it is spread, if it is contagious, and I think how common the disease is as well. The easiest way for me was to research one disease then the vaccine for it and weighed pros vs cons and ways to reduce the risk of getting the disease for my kids if I was afraid of that disease. I never got to this point but if I had decided to continue vaccinating, I planned on researching ways to reduce the risk of an adverse event, particularly vitamin C and cod liver oil.

Your lifestyle also come in to play, breastfeeding vs formula, daycare/preschool, the state you live in (Mississippi and W. Virginia only have medical exemptions for school so you would need to homeschool if you didn't want your dc to be vax'd and didn't have a medical exemption).

When I began my research I delayed all vaccinations until I felt 100% comfortable vaccinating (I had done 2 and 4 month vaxes on schedule for dd1 at that point). I decided against all vaccines with the exception of CP if she doesn't get it by the time she's a preteen and even then I'm not so sure I would vaccinate her. At that point she'll also have her own opinions on the issue I'm sure.

At this point, I'd stay away from personal stories and scare tactics (stories of how so and so's uncle is now crippled from polio or so and so's niece had a seizure from DTaP)

[Smittenk]

Thankyou, ladies, for your suggestions and help..I really appreciate it. I will do some research online tonight.

Thanks again!

[Kanga]

LMC - Did you find what you needed? I tried to search for it last night so I could post it here for anybody else that might need it but I couldn't find it.

[Marisa]

Smitten -- I agree 100% with Kanga's post, but I also wanted to add -- the Hep B will be offered in the hospital, but they should not administer it without your permission. You will be approached with a consent form before your release, and you will have the option then to sign the "declined vaccination" line.

The Hep B is a series that needs to be done in three doses, spaced one month apart for the first two, and then the third follows 4-6 months later. If you want to start the Hep B series at one of the early ped visits instead (at 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 month, whenever) there is still time to complete the full series within the first 6 months.

It's just something to consider -- we skipped the Hep B in the hospital and delayed it until later, because I didn't want one single thing to interfere with our establishing BFing (and I figured the chances of him being exposed to Hep B during the first few weeks at home were slim ;)). That's just my decision-making process.

[Rico'sAlice]

I am expecting my first baby anytime now and I am soo overwhelmed with the whole vaccine thing. I have heard of people delaying them or choosing not to have them altogether...how do I know what is best?? Where do I start (besides reading this thread ;))

Any important highlights would be a great help to start me off with.

Thankyou!


I realize it is a bit obnoxious to be quoting myself, but I am typing one handed and so can't really manage to retype and rephrase this.


So here's what I would do. I would look at each individual disease and try to decide why I wanted to vax against it. What are the chances of getting the disease? What would be the consequence of acquiring the disease? How likely are complications and what factors affect one's likeliness to develop those complications? What treatments (western, eastern, nutritional, etc.) are available should my child get this diseases? What are the benefits of getting this disease?
And, while you approach each one consider whether or not you think YOU should get a "booster" shot.
----
Then for each vax look at the efficacy rate. Then look at the given side effects as well as reported adverse reactions. Consider the length of time vax has been on the market. If you are vaxing what should/shouldn't you do to minimize reactions? (Hint. Look into vax reactions & tylenol, and vax reactions & sodium ascorbate)
-----
And for any you decide you want to get, there is the question of when.
Why 17 mo compared to 6 mo or 3 years?
At what age is the immune system "mature"? At what age do patients stop having reactions that involve neurological damage or the development of auto-immune disorders? At what ages is XYZ disease more/less dangerous?

--------------------
For me, there were also important religious questions to consider. Also, issues of children's autonomy. But I can't say what form those questions might take for you.
----------------------------------

Anyway, if you decide you want answers to those questions (or something similar) and get stuck I'd be happy to point you towards the research I found to answer them. You'd have to judge my sources on an individual basis.
Much of it is from the CDC. Not their information/PR pages, but raw data, the Pink Book, and stuff like that. You could also spend time at pubmed.

OK, this is long, so I'll stop now. :)

[meggers]

Smittenk--I would hold off on the Hep B vaccine they offer you in the hospital. The likely hood of your baby getting Hep B is small. You can get the first Hep B at 2 months when your baby gets the other 2 month shots.

[Bloomwood]

Would love some guidance here.

We are spacing the MMR shot. She had the Measles shot a couple of weeks ago and had a reaction about a week later...high fever, rash (and, of course, decided to cut two molars at the same time :rolleyes:). It was pretty miserable, but the good news is the dr. said she was most likely immune and may not need to do anymore of that shot.

I am wondering what the ideal spacing is for the remaining shots. But, I'm under a few constraints. She is currently scheduled for the next "M" on 6/27, but we leave 6/29 for a week long vacay over 4th of July. I don't want to deal with another reaction on our vacation. So I'm thinking of resched. for the very next week (7/16). But for the R shot, we move to another town on 7/20. It'd be really tough to travel all the way back down here to do it. And, we're trying to get them all in before 8/10 when we leave for Sweden. The big one for the trip was measles though as my dr. couldn't confirm they vax against it there. I guess I'm asking for opinions on whether to leave the R shot until we're back from Sweden.

Oh, and I can't move it up to this week b/c we're out of town Th-M and again don't want a reaction while we're traveling.

Anywhoo...looking for advice on spacing.

[mgrace]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts on the book. I'm finding a lot of what you all said--lots of speculation, and not up to date. I'll finish it up, though.

[RobynScott]

Question about the Hep B vaccine - we talked to our pediatrician about possibly delaying - but she said if we delayed Hep B at birth - we would wind up with 5 shots at the 2 month or 4 month appt (I can't remember exactly) when we do the MMR instead of 4.

We are definitely going to vaccinate (not trying to debate that here) - but if I want to delay - I need to have some options to present to my dr. First up is Hep B and I want to be prepared with a decision before we go to the hospital.

For those of you that did delay (Hep B and/or others) can you tell me what your schedule was and the reasoning for your spacing? DC will be starting daycare around 6 mos so I think we'll want to be 'on schedule' by then.

Thanks for any help / advice!

[LyLMyssChaos]

LMC - Did you find what you needed? I tried to search for it last night so I could post it here for anybody else that might need it but I couldn't find it.

I found the form that the state requires for school, but I decided to just write a letter to put in their medical files and I'm going to the health department to request that my children be removed from the Immunization tracking system. I never authorized access to my children's medical records, nor did I give permission for them to be on this list. IMO these tracking lists are a huge violation of the HIPPA laws.

[littlebear]

Robyn-We didn't do Hep B in the hospital. At 2 months, my son got HepB+Hib in the form of Comvax, DTP, polio, and PCV so 4 injections plus the oral rotavirus for a total of 5 vaxes but covering 8 diseases. The 4 month vaxes were the same. 6 month should be similar as well. MMR doesn't start until one year at the earliest.

[RobynScott]

Littlebear-Thanks for the info - that sounds like what our ped said as well. You were ok with the 5 vaxs at 2 and 4 mos? I think that sounds better than a shot right at birth. Besides - I don't think DC is likely to encounter Hep B before his/her 2 month visit.

Thanks!

[kristin]

Keep in mind that when delaying the Hep B until later, you must also keep your own risk factors in mind. It's a fairly new phenomena to give the Hep B vaccination in the hospital. About 5 years ago some studies came out in the Journal of Pediatrics that profiled newborns that aquired hep B from their mothers who were infected - that is why they vaccinate in the hospital.

If your risk factor is low, it makes sense to delay if you are not comfortable with it. I, however, was furious when I realized that the Hep B was never offered to me in the hospital for my DD who is 20 months. My risk factor is moderate, since I work in an ED and frequently handle blood. Also, even though I've received two courses of the Hep B, for some reason I still lack sufficient titers. So if I had Hep B at the time, delaying even those 2 months could have affected my DD's health.

As a side note, when I requested my medical records when changing pediatricians, I found a note attached to the hospital chart written by her ped saying I had refused the vaccination. That never happened, I was never offered it! And I hate to say it, but it really does stigmatize you as one of "those" mothers who don't immunize. It's unfortunate, but in reality the medical community that I've experienced still views these moms as mostly "conspiracy theorists". It's not right, but it't there.

[Marisa]

Robyn, another option (one we chose) was to space the vaccines a few weeks apart, so that Joey was never receiving more than one or two at once.

It's not an option for everyone, but we live pretty close to the dr's office, and we had no other huge plans for the first couple of months home. ;) So we came up with a schedule that allowed him to get one vax, then visit again in two weeks not for a full visit, but just for 10 minutes to do a quick check and get the next shot.

It sounds like a lot of work/angst for you, to have to sit through that every two weeks, but it's worth it if you're interested in seeing a reaction to each new shot. Once Joey'd had no reaction to the DTaP, I was comfortable having him get that shot along with the Polio the second time around, though. It's just the way I chose to do it.

I actually did not have him vaccinated at all for Hep B until this year (age 3) since he's home with me until September, and we don't have a high risk factor at all. But that was my own situation -- if your baby is going to daycare then you might want to double up on some of the shots. DTaP and Polio are two that have been around a long time, those are the ones we started with when we did start.

[Sevilla]

In regards to Hep B - that seems to be just a US thing to give it to infants. In Canada they don't give it until middle school.

[Bloomwood]

re: Hep B - we were told the only way she'd be exposed - given our lifestyle (ie, not frequently exposure to blood or other risk scenarios) - was if she had a blood transfusion or was sexually active (including the unthinkable of sexual abuse). Our ped's office is fine delaying until age 10.

Marisa (since no one has chimed in on my original question): is it fine then to delay shots just 2 weeks apart? You basically want to space them enough to make sure there isn't a reaction?

[Kanga]

Bloomwood - the CDC (or is it big pharma) says vaccine reactions can occur up to 6 weeks after it's received. I believe it's recommended to wait at least 4 weeks between doses.

[RobynScott]

Thanks for the advice. We live really close to the peds office (5 mins) so I'd have no problem going every 2 weeks - but I'm not sure that the ped would go for it - guess I can at least try?

Thanks for the advice!

[Kanga]

RobynScott - here (http://us.gsk.com/products/assets/us_engerixb.pdf) is the package insert for the hep b vax (Engerix - B). It says that the second dose must be one month after the first and the 3rd dose 6 months after the first. There's another hep b vax, comvax (http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_circulars/c/comvax/comvax_pi.pdf)but it also has HiB mixed with it. It's recommended dosage is 2,4 and 12-15mo or at least 6 weeks between the first and second dose, and the third given 8-11 months after the second. Sorry, it's a pdf file otherwise, I'd c/p.
here (http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/package_inserts.htm) is the link to the package insert for the vast majority (all?) of the vaccines on the market. It has the recommended schedule, contraindictions, dosages, adverse events, etc.

[Bloomwood]

thanks kanga!!

[Marisa]

Bloomwood -- after Joey got his initial shots, I was more comfortable spacing them closer together. We waited a month between different shots at first, but once he'd received one dose of something with no reaction, I was more comfortable having two together, etc. (He was also older and bigger with each subsequent shot, of course, which helped me feel better about it.)

Keep in mind that we spaced all the 'infant' shots we wanted to do throughout the course of about 15 months total (we had that luxury, as I said he was just home with me). And he still hasn't gotten the MMR or chicken pox (though we will catch him up), and we've only done the Hep B since his 3rd birthday.

[littlebear]

You were ok with the 5 vaxs at 2 and 4 mos? I think that sounds better than a shot right at birth. Besides - I don't think DC is likely to encounter Hep B before his/her 2 month visit.

He would have had 5 anyway since he would have gotten the Hib. It was just in the comvax form with HepB. The only reason that I didn't do it at birth was because our ped prefers to do all immunizations through her office so she suggests that you decline HepB at the hospital if your risk profile was low.

[suzfuzsunflower]

I always planned on vaccinating on schedule, but now that my son's 2 month appointment is less than 2 weeks away, I'm not so sure. I looked at the vaccination schedule and saw the vaccines that are recommended at 2 months, and I couldn't believe how many there were! It seems like a lot for such a young baby.

I've read through a good amount of this thread, and plan on doing some research of my own. My concerns are:

1. So many vaccines for such a young baby, all coming at him at once.
2. I'm uncomfortable with what I've read on here about the mmr and cp vaccine (although these don't come until he is older).
3. The research (haven't decided if I think it's valid) on vaccinations and the link with autism scares me.
4. DS is having some issues with a possible milk protein allergy. I am bf him, he's reacted to the dairy that I've eaten, so I am going on a special dairy free diet. I would like to make sure that this issue is resolved and that he isn't still reacting from the milk protein before causing a possible reaction to a vaccine. I just started the diet yesterday, and sometimes it can take several weeks to get the protein out of ds and me.

My husband wants to vaccinate on schedule. My brother is a doctor and says that he risks are so low and outweigh the benefits. I haven't decided where I stand yet. Need to research more. Anyway, I'm just bumping this up, hoping to hear more information.

[Sevilla]

Hi Suz. One easy thing to start with is to say you're delaying until 6 months old and don't budge from that line. If your ped is supportive - great! But if they try to pressure you to vax then just keep saying "We are delaying until 6 months old. If you want to send some literature home with me please do so, but I am not talking about it anymore today. Thank you". If you start into explanations then you give them an opening to try and convince you to do some that day when all you want is time.

FWIW, we selectively vax on a delayed schedule and our ped is fine with it. We started vaxes at 6 months old and have done one per appt - some of the vaxes only need 1-2 doses when the baby gets them as an toddler (past 1 year) but 4 doses if they are under a year which was another incentive for us.

[Marisa]

suz, we found the same thing. My ped is a DO so she may be a little more open to new ideas than an MD, but still if you are in a low-risk situation (limited exposure to other children, you're staying home for the time being, etc.) then you really shouldn't face too much opposition from your ped if you say exactly what you told us. You're dealing with another issue right now, and you'd like to have the allergy thing under control before you introduce another foreign agent. Tell them four months, if you like, it still buys you more time to make up your mind.

It doesn't have to be all or nothing, as well. Once you begin, if you're delaying you can come up with a schedule that makes sense to you. Once you've done the research you'll understand which vaxes are important for a newborn, and which can be put off until later, if that's your plan.

[wine_o_girlie]

Suz, I was in exactly your position about 4 months ago except that I knew since I was pregnant that I planned on delaying/spacing the vaxes. I think it simply ridiculous to vaccinate a tiny 2 month old baby with 5 vaccines (some for multiple diseases).

Do you have any idea how your current Ped will react to you delaying/spacing some vaccines? I intentionally tried to find a Ped who would be supportive and I talked extensively to my Ped prior to the baby being born about my plans. Still, at my son's 2 month appointment she acted a bit hesitant and I had to sign some BS waiver. :rolleyes: I don't care at all and I haven't switched Peds because I like her otherwise but still I was a bit miffed about that. At my son's 4 month appointment she said something to effect of "get ready for all those shots" and I reminded her that we are doing no more than 2 shots per WBV. You have to make the decision for yourself based upon what you are comfortable with and like Sevilla said, just repeat that "here's the plan ..." and stick with that. No need for long drawn out explanations or discussions, just a matter of fact "here's the plan for today". You can always change your mind in the future.

Here's our delayed/spaced schedule so far:

Newborn - refused Hep B, won't do this until closer to school age
Rotovirus - refused this at 2 months, if you do not start Roto "on time" you basically cannot get it because it must be completed with all doses by 8 months. Roto is not required for school entry.
2 month WBV - DTaP and Hib (1st dose)
4 month WBV - DTap and Hib (2nd dose)

We will not do any more than 2 vaccinations ever. I would like to break up the MMR but am unsure if I can find the vaccines in single format. Chicken pox vaccine will be delayed until the last possible instant before school entry and I am hoping like crazy I can find someone who has it and Griffin can get the disease naturally. Griff has so far only been kept by family and in September he will begin being cared for by a private nanny so that factors a lot into our decision making (as does breastfeeding). HTH. Good luck with your decision, let us know what you decide! :)

[wine_o_girlie]

We started vaxes at 6 months old and have done one per appt - some of the vaxes only need 1-2 doses when the baby gets them as an toddler (past 1 year) but 4 doses if they are under a year which was another incentive for us.

Sevilla, would you mind posting your schedule of what you have done so far/plan to do in the future and also do you have a link for the 1-2 dose vs. 4 dose thing? I know I have read about that but do not have a good link so that I can map out my plan into the second year. Thanks so much!! :)

[Sevilla]

Sevilla, would you mind posting your schedule of what you have done so far/plan to do in the future and also do you have a link for the 1-2 dose vs. 4 dose thing?
My favorite vaccine resource is by the CDC (Center for Disease Control, the gov't agency based in Atlanta, GA). Their publication "The Pink Book" is so informative, detailed, and helpful. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/pink-chapters.htm

Here are the ones with difering doses depending on age:

DTaP - 5 doses if started before 1 year, 4 doses if started after 1 year
Prevnar - 4 doses if started under 12 months, 2 doses if started 12-24 months, 1 dose if given after 24 months
Hib - 4 doses if started under 12 months, 2 doses if started 12-15 months, 1 dose if given after 15 months

Hib and Prevnar vaccines are not recommended to be given to kids age 5 and up.

Our schedule started at 6 months with Polio (b/c it is the least reactive of the vaccines), then DTaP after 1 year of age and on from there. I plan to do the MMR at age 3 b/c i want him to b able to describe what he is feeling if he has a reaction to it.

[summer girl]

Is anyone doing the Hepatitis A Vaccine in the age range of 12-24 months? I took my son to his 2 year wellness visit and my pediatrician said it is now recommended for all children older than the age of 1 to receive this vaccine. I refused because I wasn't expecting it and told him I would think about it. We vaccinated on schedule with everything else but I am having trouble deciding on this one since I don't see the risk my son is in. I don't believe my state (IN) or community has a high prevalence of hepatits A and I stay at home so my son is not in daycare. I was just wondering what other parents are doing and if this is already common in other areas of the US?

[Sevilla]

Summer Girl - Since you don't live in a high risk state and your son isn't in daycare, I would skip it for now. You can always give it at a later date if you feel circumstances change and warrant it. That is what we are doing :).

[emmjay]

Question: if you delayed the MMR vaccine, when did/will you have it done? DS's 1-yr WBV is today and we're not getting any vaxes at all. That's primarily because we're flying tomorrow and I don't want to deal with any reactions, but also because the MMR freaks me out. I'm trying to figure out when to have that one - I've read 18 months, 2 years, etc, and I'm not sure what the best time would be.

[tgal]

We are holding off until 3 and are splitting up the MMR, doing one per year. I just found a doctor willing to do this in our area. I had a hard time finding out how to get the vax split. If you need more info on that PM me.

[Sevilla]

We are planning to delay the MMR until age 3 because I want DS to be able to describe to me what he is feeling if he gets a reaction. I am going to do my best to get it broken up, but if that's not possible I'll get the combo MMR. I will NOT get "MMR-V" which includes the Chicken Pox (Varicella) vax - 4 live virus vaxes in one shot is not something I am ok with for my child.

[tgal]

Splitting the MMR vax: I live in a small town where delaying isn't a common practice. We are with a fairly large practice and when I asked our regular ped I was told they not only couldn't do it, but it wasn't possible.

After doing some research, I met another mom in my area doing the same thing. She uses a doctor that has his own practice, which we will transfer to if our current ped isn't willing to do the following for us. He writes a script for each vax for the person requesting it and there is a pharmacy in NJ that will overnight the vax directly to you, you keep it cool until your apt. and take it with you to be administered. Keep in mind this probably isn't something most insurance policies will cover and I have no clue what the cost is doing it this way, but it is another option if you can't find a doctor who does this on their own. Most won't because they have to buy them in lots of 10 and unless you find 10 other moms that want to do it this way in your area then they will probably say no.

I have the NJ pharmacy information if anyone is interested PM me.

[basketcase]

Question for those who delayed MMR until age 3 or older....what was your child's reaction to MMR, if any?

It seems like every kid we know had a bad reaction to the MMR, but all of these kids were also 12-15 months when they got the shot. I am wondering if my child will have less of a reaction (or maybe even no reaction?) now that we've waited 3+ years to give him the vaccine.

Experiences?

[Marisa]

Joey just had his this past week at 3 1/2. His reaction was pretty mild -- rashy around the site of the injection for about 2 days, and one afternoon about 2-3 days after the shot he was a little warm and fell asleep on the rug playing with his cars. Otherwise he's been fine.

(Of course, we're still within the 2-week window where they tell you to look for symptoms.)

[dana b]

mmr my dd just had it at 37 mos. the only thing i noticed was a very low fever on the 10th day after the vaccine. i was really worried about a reaction as well. my dd has never had even the slightest (visible) reaction from any vaccine though -- we delay and do one at a time.

[basketcase]

Marisa and dana_b, thank you. You've eased my mind tremendously. DS just had his MMR yesterday at 3 yrs. 4 mos. It almost feels like the newborn stage again -- I'm watching his every move, breath, and moan like a hawk! :)

[DanaLynn]

Is anyone doing the Hepatitis A Vaccine in the age range of 12-24 months? I took my son to his 2 year wellness visit and my pediatrician said it is now recommended for all children older than the age of 1 to receive this vaccine. I refused because I wasn't expecting it and told him I would think about it. We vaccinated on schedule with everything else but I am having trouble deciding on this one since I don't see the risk my son is in. I don't believe my state (IN) or community has a high prevalence of hepatits A and I stay at home so my son is not in daycare. I was just wondering what other parents are doing and if this is already common in other areas of the US?
Summer Girl - Since you don't live in a high risk state and your son isn't in daycare, I would skip it for now. You can always give it at a later date if you feel circumstances change and warrant it. That is what we are doing .

I don't think I live in a high risk state either, my children at the time were staying at home and guess what??? My husband got Hep A. There was no HepA outbreak where he worked or at the places we eat at or anywhere around us. It was just random. My husband is a total clean freak about everything and it is actually very gross the way you contract it.
Even if you don't go out to eat, you can get it from, fruit, vegetable, grocery stores, farmers markets etc.
My son had the first part of the vaccination but the three of us still had to get the immune globulin (sp).
It is an awful illness to have. This is the reason I believe in vaccinating on-time.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/hepatitis/a/fact.htm

[HollyMN]

Yeah, we got told about Hep A at our visit this week. We chose not to get it right then, but are open to getting it if it makes sense.

The ped said that it used to just be a travel vaccine and not necessary in the U.S. However, there have been two incidents here in Minnesota both coming from restaurants. I think one was a pizza place and I forgot the other one. Someone in the kitchen handles the food and that's how it was spread. Neither happened in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area, but eventually it'll be here too and the vaccine is an option if we want it.

[roadrunner]

I can't seem to see much on here about the 'chicken pox' vax. Does anyone know much about it? Mainly, I have been trying to find out how long the vax lasts, and if boosters are necessary.

DD#1 didn't have it, because I hadn't had the chance to research it, and, really, chicken pox seems to be more of a nuisance than aything else. I've been searching for updated research on it for awhile now, and can't find aything.

DD#2 has her one year check on Thursday, and is scheduled for MMR, Chickenpox & Meningococcal shots. 3 shots is wayyyy too much.

I just don't see any value in the chicken pox shot. Anyone have any insight to offer me?

[alisong]

I just don't see any value in the chicken pox shot. Anyone have any insight to offer me?I didn't either, and then I did a research project (for work) on post-herpetic neuralgia (pain after shingles). Reading about how common the condition is, and how painful and difficult to treat it can be definitely changed my mind! If I can prevent my child from becoming infected with VZV, I will.

[Marisa]

Current research on the varicella vax seems to give it a lifespan of about 10 years. Which will mean lifelong boosters at highschool age, college, etc. Those who have been vaccinated once without boosters would still be at risk from the virus (and painful shingles, once they're adults).

That's my concern. How can I make sure that my grown child continues to get boosters every 10 or so years? I wish he could just catch this one naturally so that he'd be more likely to have lifelong immunity.


ETA -- I'm reading around a little more (the AAP site, etc.) and the vaccine itself has only been widely used for just over 10 years. They're currently recommending or looking to recommend a booster at age 4-6, and older children/adults who have not gotten a second shot should do so as well.

[Kanga]

How Effective is Chickenpox Vaccine?

All vaccines only provide temporary immunity. Only recovery from natural chickenpox disease will provide lifelong immunity. When the chickenpox vaccine was licensed for public use in 1995, the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) estimated that it was 70 to 90 percent effective in preventing disease. A recent Centers for Disease Control (CDC) study (Dec. 2002) reported that "the effectiveness of the vaccine was 44 percent against disease of any severity and 86 percent against moderate or severe disease." Some are suggesting a second dose of chickenpox vaccine may be needed. Another study in 2002 confirmed that adults exposed to natural chickenpox disease were protected from developing shingles and that there is concern that mass vaccination against chickenpox may cause a future epidemic of shingles, affecting more than 50 percent of Americans aged 10 to 44 years.




http://909shot.com/Diseases/chickenpox%20facts.htm

Bolding is mine. No vaccine provides 100% lifelong immunity, so in essence, every vaccine requires a booster.

[roadrunner]

Another study in 2002 confirmed that adults exposed to natural chickenpox disease were protected from developing shingles

This is what I have read as well, and it greatly concerns me, because of what Marisa said :

That's my concern. How can I make sure that my grown child continues to get boosters every 10 or so years? I wish he could just catch this one naturally so that he'd be more likely to have lifelong immunity.


I know that I haven't had a single booster or shot since I was in Grade 6, and, honestly doubt that many adults follow any regular vax schedules. I guess the question is which do I want my children to have - natural exposure to the virus with a *potential* for complications, which will provide lifelong immunity or immunity for a few years, with necessary boosters, and the potential to develop adult shingles.

I have made my decision to not get the vax, but I'm glad to have some updated research to back up my decision, as our public health nurse is really going to give me a hard time about this (again :mad:).

Thanks for the information, and the quick response!! :)

[Rico'sAlice]

I didn't either, and then I did a research project (for work) on post-herpetic neuralgia (pain after shingles). Reading about how common the condition is, and how painful and difficult to treat it can be definitely changed my mind! If I can prevent my child from becoming infected with VZV, I will.

But as far as I understand it, you definitely Can get shingles after having had the vax, even if you never have "chicken pox" since it is a live virus. :confused:

[maybebaby]

deleted

[Delta]

Yeah, my nephew got the CP vax "on time" and recently - at almost 4 years old - had a bout of shingles on his leg. :(

[Kanga]

I know there are yahoo groups and probably LJ groups as well for 'pox parties' should you want your dc to catch CP naturally.

[PinkMartini]

I know there are yahoo groups and probably LJ groups as well for 'pox parties' should you want your dc to catch CP naturally.

:eek:

[Sevilla]

I know there are yahoo groups and probably LJ groups as well for 'pox parties' should you want your dc to catch CP naturally.
:) Yep, i'm on the list for one in my area. I exposed DS earlier this summer but he didn't get it - I suspect that the fact he is still nursing and thus getting my antibodies to CP are a big reason why. We'll try again next year (cases generally come up in the spring/early summer).

I would much rather DS get the disease while he is young (preferably under 5) than have to get consistent boosters his whole life - especially since they are just figuring out now how many boosters will be necessary, i don't want him being a medical guinea pig! If he does not get it by age 10-12 and his blood titers show no immunity, then we will vaccinate him for it.

When I read articles published when the CP vaccine first came out in the mid 90's, they all focused on how much money it would save parents who wouldn't have to take off work for a week with their kids - not on the horrors of a dangerous disease (because back then it wasn't looked at as something scary or dangerous as long as it was kids who got it and not adults).

It is so interesting to me how a culture of fear has grown up about chicken pox since the vaccine came out - now it is something to be afraid of our children getting, whereas 15 years ago it was just part of life, an inconvenience at the time but beneficial in the long run. Nothing changed except the frequency of the disease's presence in our lives decreasing and a vaccine being promoted as necessary to protect us.

I am not anti-vaccine, DS is vaccinated and I believe in vaccine theory and their positive effect on public health (for the most part). But I have huge reservations about the long-term consequences about vaccinating against chicken pox and how it will affect the population over the coming decades - will the risks/downsides outweight the benefits?

[Delta]

We will be looking for a pox party in our area probably next summer - when our oldest is on summer vacation and our youngest isn't a baby anymore.

[Kanga]

It is so interesting to me how a culture of fear has grown up about chicken pox since the vaccine came out - now it is something to be afraid of our children getting, whereas 15 years ago it was just part of life, an inconvenience at the time but beneficial in the long run. Nothing changed except the frequency of the disease's presence in our lives decreasing and a vaccine being promoted as necessary to protect us.


ITA

I haven't found any yahoo groups but i'm going to search for lj groups. Ideally i'd like to wait until dd2 is a little older but it's so hard to find anymore I feel like I shouldn't pass up the chance should I get it. Plus dd2 is exclusively breastfed (and i'm immune via the old fashioned way) so chances are much slimmer that she'll get it.

[roadrunner]

I do wish there were 'pox' parties in my area, but I cannot seem to locate any.

As for people wanting the vaccine so that they don't have to take time off with a sick kiddo ?? :eek: Wow.

I'm honestly dreading this appt. tomorrow. This nurse is really going to be in my face about this. Plus, she is the public health nurse for the high school I teach in, and takes MANY opportunities to ask me if I've changed my mind about the pox vax. This was all with DD#1. She's likely to call CPS on me tomorrow since I'm not getting the pox vax for #2!

[HGMorgann]

RoadRunner, I'd pull the religion card. Say: I'm religiously against this vaccine and its not up for discussion.
Thank goodness my office doesn't offer the CP vaccine so I'm all set:-)

[Kanga]

She's likely to call CPS on me tomorrow since I'm not getting the pox vax for #2!


I couldn't tell if you were just joking or not, but if not, skipping vaccines is not reportable to CPS. If she does call, they won't (err, shouldn't) act on it.

[roadrunner]

I couldn't tell if you were just joking or not

Yep, just joking!!

[mel7dog]

I'm glad this thread popped up. I have been thinking a lot about vax's lately. DS has been vaxed on schedule until recently. He should have had CP and MMR at 15 month, but as I am learning more I am a bit freaked out. I'm pretty sure we're not getting the CP at all, but I wonder how this will affect daycare for us. DS only goes to drop in from time to time. I was thinking of just not getting it done and not mentioning it to them.

[Sevilla]

Mel - You can delay the MMR and CP vaxes. There is no reason to tell the part-time daycare one way or another unless they specifically ask.

There is a new book on vaccines out next month by Dr. Sears that i'm planning to get - I think it would be helpful for you too. I trust the Sears to be balanced on this issue, moreso than a lot of the literature out there.

The Vaccine Book: Making the Right Decision for Your Child by Robert Sears (http://www.amazon.com/dp/0316017507/ref=s9_asin_title-1966_p/105-8979978-7518068?%5Fencoding=UTF8&coliid=I2STU2HCSVBYZS&colid=3FPJUX19Y08TV&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=right-1&pf_rd_r=0FVBAKX7RMMGJ1GFZ70F&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=280762101&pf_rd_i=507846)

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41IpqxqIHFL._AA240_.jpg

[mel7dog]

oooh that book looks really good! I love Dr Sears because I feel like he's a good balanced like you mentioned. I need to start reading up on the MMR. For some reason I thought it was a 2-3 part shot and DS had already had one. But I just looked at his record, it's a 2 part, and he hasn't had it yet. Off to MCD!

[honeygirl]

Re Dr Sears book, I just tried to pre-order it and found that it's not shipping (from Amazon) till October 22. Just a FYI.

[Nigellas]

:eek:

Why the "eek", Pink? Natural immunity is lifelong, and (IMO) is MUCH safer than getting shot up with toxin filled vaccines.

[Sandie78]

I do wish there were 'pox' parties in my area, but I cannot seem to locate any.

As for people wanting the vaccine so that they don't have to take time off with a sick kiddo ?? :eek: Wow.

I'm honestly dreading this appt. tomorrow. This nurse is really going to be in my face about this. Plus, she is the public health nurse for the high school I teach in, and takes MANY opportunities to ask me if I've changed my mind about the pox vax. This was all with DD#1. She's likely to call CPS on me tomorrow since I'm not getting the pox vax for #2!

I used to work in a school office and I had to "get in people's faces" about not having their children vaccinated. Really I wasn't trying to be rude, I was just doing my job. Honestly neither I nor anyone else at the school cared whether a child had the vaccine or a religious exemption, but we absolutely had to have record of one or the other because the health department would be on our backs and could close down the school if we didn't.

[Delta]

Shut down the school for not having info about chicken pox vaccines? What is this country coming too? :rolleyes:

Does having a notation on the record that the child has actually had the disease count?

[Sandie78]

Does having a notation on the record that the child has actually had the disease count?

Yes, that was ok too.

[Kanga]

Shut down the school for not having info about chicken pox vaccines? What is this country coming too? :rolleyes:

Does having a notation on the record that the child has actually had the disease count?

it depends on the state. IIRC, most do, but some don't.

I used to work in a school office and I had to "get in people's faces" about not having their children vaccinated. Really I wasn't trying to be rude, I was just doing my job. Honestly neither I nor anyone else at the school cared whether a child had the vaccine or a religious exemption, but we absolutely had to have record of one or the other because the health department would be on our backs and could close down the school if we didn't.

She's a nurse though, not a school official. You are not required to vaccinate your child in general. ONLY if you send them to school AND don't file an exemption.

[roadrunner]

I used to work in a school office and I had to "get in people's faces" about not having their children vaccinated. Really I wasn't trying to be rude, I was just doing my job.

Yes, but my children do not go to school where I teach (High school), so I see no reason for this nurse to be harassing me at my place of work, just because she also works there. She is not even the nurse for the Primary school, where my kids will start kindergarden. I think your situation is much different, where you are working in a school situation, and dealing with parents of children in that school.

I can't use the religious excuse, as we go to the same church as the nurse.

I'm just gonna say no thanks this afternoon, and not bother explaining my reasons. Vaxing is not a requirement, it is an option.

[Nigellas]

I can't use the religious excuse, as we go to the same church as the nurse.

Religion, even within a particular church, is very personal. Who is she to say that it is or isn't against your religious beliefs.

[DanaLynn]

nigellas Natural immunity is lifelong, and (IMO) is MUCH safer than getting shot up with toxin filled vaccines.
Good to know that I am pumping my children full of toxins, in your opinion.

[miaclear]

nigellas
Good to know that I am pumping my children full of toxins, in your opinion.

I agree.... DS has had all his vax to date but I am trying to read up more on the subject so that I'm not blindly leading him to the needle. I've come to this thread and really feel like it's an anti-vax thread. I wish it was more balanced. I do think that the majority of people who have declined vaccinations have researched the subject, although I'm not inclined to believe what they believe. And that a lot of the people who have vaccinated their children do so on blind faith in trusting their Pediatrician and don't necessarily ask questions. I know I didn't with DS's first two rounds of vax.

DS's next appt is just a week away. I think I'll head to the bookstores and see if I can find that Dr Sears book to read.

ETA: I just saw the book isn't coming out till next month. I'm sure there's plenty of other resources I can research :)

[Sevilla]

nigellas
Good to know that I am pumping my children full of toxins, in your opinion.
I vaccinate and I fully know that my child is being injected with toxins - just like I know that when I make smoothies in our food processor with a plastic container that we are also getting the toxin Bisphenol-A, that when we eat conventional Strawberries we are getting a whole lot of toxic pesticide residue, that when I wear clothes as soon as I buy them without washing them I am exposing my body to toxic chemical residues such as formaldehyde. The beauty products I use such as my eczema lotion and shampoo contain ingredients known to cause harm to animals and humans over the long term. That the milk I stored in Avent bottles became contaminated with Bisphenol-A b/c of the type of plastic used - and that chemical has been shown to cause detriment to developing babies and it is now recommended not to be used.

Do people really think that they are not exposing themselves and their children to harmful toxins and chemicals each and every day? I know that I am conscious of it, and sometimes i don't have better options. And sometimes I believe the benefits outweigh the negatives. I do my best to reduce my exposure, but recognie its not totally possible to be toxin-free.

The government even acknowledges that vaccines contain toxins (when you read the ingredient lists that is hard to deny), but I also believe that vaxes have benefit, which is why I give them to my son (on a selective/delayed schedule).

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdf

That link includes a list of all vaccine ingredients and is from the US government and CDC - no anti-vax propoganda there :). Known and documented toxic substances to humans include Formaldahyde, Thimerosal (mercury) and aluminum.

[roadrunner]

The appt. yesterday went well. DD had 2 shots (MMR & Meningitis). I told her I wasn't yet ready for the chicken pox vax, and she was actually pretty cooperative. She asked if I wanted to sign the refusal form, and I told her no. If they haven't had the pox by the time their kindergarden check comes up, we will revisit the research, and our opinions at that time.

I've come to this thread and really feel like it's an anti-vax thread. I wish it was more balanced.

I really disagree with this, and do feel that this thread is balanced, and has certainly provided some excellent material. I'm not anti-vax at all, and my children have received all of the regular vaxes pretty much on time (separated the 18 month needles). The only vax I am questioning is the chicken pox vax, as, like others have pointed out, the vax does not provide lifelong immunity, whereas the natural disease does. I think that many in this thread have had their children vaxed. To choose to omit one or two vaxes because we question their necessity does not make one anti-vax.

[Sevilla]

I'm glad your appointment went well and that your dr. was receptive to you delaying the CP vax. :) It is great they still offer the MMR separate! A lot of offices are starting to go to the MMR-V vax which combines the two and makes delaying CP much more difficult.

[Katie&Micah]

I know it's highly annoying when someone comes into a thread and asks a question that's been asked a million times, but right now I don't have the energy to read the entire thread. Please forgive me!

Madeline is almost 2 months old and I haven't put any thought into her vaccines until today. I realized I don't think I want to subject her to all that crap at once. Does anyone have any links to some sample delayed schedules? Or can you tell me what you used with your child? I'd like to see several options if possible and if you have time the reason why you chose to break things up that way. I don't think my pediatrician will have any problems with me delaying, but I'd like to have some idea of how I want to break things up before her appt.

Thank you in advance. Again I'm sorry if you all have answered this question a million times.

[Sevilla]

K&M - What I would recommend is delaying all of them until 4-6 months old, that gives you time to get some books (including the Dr. Sears book which goes through each disease and vaccine, the risks and benefits) and decide what will be best for your family.

[Nigellas]

Good to know that I am pumping my children full of toxins, in your opinion.

Uh... there ARE toxins in vaccines, I'm not being dramatic. If you didn't know that you might want to do some research... I understand what people vaccinate their children - really I do - however I can't comprehend blindly injecting my child with something without even reading the ingredient list first.

Sevilla - While I try my best to avoid when ever possible the examples you gave, I think the hugest difference is that with vaccines we are actually INJECTING toxins into small babies. Way different than drinking from a plastic bottle.

[Kanga]

Katie&micah - We choose not to do any vaccines at all, so I'm no help with a delayed schedule (though there is a thread/forum on MDC). We choose not to do any because we believe it is much easier on a child's system to be exposed to things naturally rather than inject them. Most of the VPD are airborne viruses - so you have the nose, lungs, etc to help protect the body. Also, like CP for example, if you catch it naturally chances are you will have lifelong immunity and never have to worry about again and never have to expose yourself to possibly life threatening toxins. When I first started my research I looked into each disease there is a vaccine for, then the vaccine for that disease and weighed them against each other. By the time I got all the way through I realized I wasn't afraid of any of the diseases anyways. Secondly, vaccines are a huge money maker and I didn't like the $ ties between CDC and big pharma. A good place to start for info on diseases is the CDC pink book (link on the first page).

[Ericka_Jarett]

Interesting that the CP vaccine came up. That is the one vaccine we are skipping. DS will have all the others and has had them on schedule.

When I was a nanny 3 of the 4 boys got CP, we had the older brother touching his younger siblings and everything and he NEVER got them. The doctor said apparently he is naturally immune to them so never required the shot even. To this day (he is now 17) he has never had the cp, of course he still has a chance of getting shingles, but for now he has been cp free.

I had a case when I was 5 right before starting K, hope that if DS is ever going to get them, he gets them at that time too.

[LyLMyssChaos]

Uggh, we just got the "second notice" letter from the Ped. I sent in one letter already that stated simply that we were aware of the purpose of the vaccinations and that we were choosing to not have our children receive them. Grrrr, I need to find a better worded one or a new Ped. :(

[AmyE]

The only vaccine I've declined is BCG, which protects against tuberculosis and is standard at 2 weeks in the part of the world I live in. (they don't offer it in the US because we have so few cases of TB there)

Other than that, my 3 kids are getting the full recommended standard US set, plus both Heps, Japanese Encephalitis, and rabies. The last two are 3-shot series stating at 12 months of age. I even asked my ped if we could move the 4-year-old set (can't remember which ones) to earlier for my older son, but he said it wasn't needed. :D I also use the Australian vaccines for the first 6 months, which are combined. 5 'shots' but only two 'sticks.'

All about risk/return - I live in a place where children regularly - every year - die from polio and measles, not to mention a bunch of things for which there are no vaccines. Less than 50% of the children here are vaccinated, so the childhood illnesses that are rare in the US are still both common and fatal here. Combine that with poor health care overall and a lot of myths...my kids get their shots. And where there are outbreaks, I keep them away from unvax'ed kids when I can.

To me the CP vax is the least important, we got it, but meh, that one I consider the least important.

Even when we were in the US I wanted my kids fully vaxed, since with all the air travel we do, "things" move around more than if we lived in a small town or suburb where most people don't travel overseas.

So I suppose I'm the vaccination polar opposite of Kanga. I've done the reading, looked around at our circumstances, and came up with a totally different set of conclusions.

[Kanga]

And where there are outbreaks, I keep them away from unvax'ed kids when I can.


I hear this all the time and don't understand it. If you believe vaccines work and your children are vax'd, what's the point?

[AmyE]

I hear this all the time and don't understand it. If you believe vaccines work and your children are vax'd, what's the point?

Since the twins are 9 months, they havent' had the full set of shots yet, so they are not yet fully vaccinated. They will have had at least the first round of almost everything by 15 months. I'm still BF, too, but that only goes so far. Once the kids have had the full round, then I won't be quite as cautious, although I would not, of course, intentionally expose them to someone with active measles or such.

It makes a difference that the health care system here is not reliable, so I think the extra precautions are only sensible. Again, I'd probably not be quite so far on this end of the spectrum if we lived in a few other places, although I'd still vaccinate on schedule.

Just a different POV. In addition, my father had polio as a child and I had a friend in 3rd grade who had typhoid, and I would never, ever want my kids to suffer like that, even though both Dad and my friend survived.

IMHO, it doesn't have to be fatal for me to want to avoid risking my kids. In most cases, I'd take the toxins. And I do!

[kemorr]

By the time I got all the way through I realized I wasn't afraid of any of the diseases anyways. (link on the first page).

Wow, I find this to be an absolutely amazing statement. Have you ever seen a person inflicted with a vaccine preventable disease? Have you ever spoken to someone who has been severely affected by a vaccine preventable disease to get their take on this? Ever been to a museum with pictures and recordings and stories of kids who had to live in an iron lung because of the whooping cough - a disease of which there was a huge outbreak in my town (ordinary old suburban US town) just this summer. Ever seen an old person who had Polio hobbling down the street, forever disabled due to a vaccine preventable disease? Ever spoken to the parent of a college kid who died from meningitis - a disease that is still prevalent in college campuses TODAY? It's one thing to say you feel the risk is low in the current time (entirely due to vaccination, I might point out) but to say you're not worried about the diseases astounds me. Natural immunity is great and all but let's not forget that vaccine preventable diseases can (a) kill or (b) severely disable their victim. They might not, but they CAN!

What I don't get is that people choose not to vaccinate because they feel the risk of getting the disease is lower than the risk caused by the vaccine. Don't you realise that these diseases do still exist (they haven't been eradicated, like small pox) and as fewer and fewer people have their children vaccinated, the risk of the disease coming back increases. The only reason that the risk of these diseases is low in this country today is because of vaccination!

[Nigellas]

Um... The Iron Lung was for Polio, not Whopping Cough. There hasn't been an outbreak of Polio in the US in what (someone jump in here - I don't have the time to get the stats), 25 years?

but let's not forget that vaccine preventable diseases can (a) kill or (b) severely disable their victim. They might not, but they CAN!


Let's not forget, VACCINES can (a) kill or (b) severely disable their victim. They might not, but they CAN!

[Ericka_Jarett]

Actually, just looked up last polio outbreak and it was in October 2005 in Minnesota, was first one in 26 yrs. Fortunately none of those infected got paralyzed by it though.

[jennylou]

I think many vaccines are necessary. Many of us are old enough to have been raised with relatives who had polio or who had siblings/cousins/family with the disease - it's not too distant in our past. Probably the same could be said of measles, mumps and rubella.

That said, we have declined the chicken pox vaccine. I'd prefer DD (and future children) to be exposed naturally, instead of having to go in for we don't yet know how many booster shots.

We'll be delaying the MMR until DD is a bit older. We'll get it for sure, but we're just going to delay it until DD is older and can communicate better.

DD had two doses of Rotateq (sp?), but after the FDA warning, I declined the third dose.

All other shots, DD has gotten on schedule. At her one year visit, she actually only had one shot, which was good - she totally didn't enjoy it!

[lml41981]

Wow, I find this to be an absolutely amazing statement. Have you ever seen a person inflicted with a vaccine preventable disease? Have you ever spoken to someone who has been severely affected by a vaccine preventable disease to get their take on this? Ever been to a museum with pictures and recordings and stories of kids who had to live in an iron lung because of the whooping cough - a disease of which there was a huge outbreak in my town (ordinary old suburban US town) just this summer. Ever seen an old person who had Polio hobbling down the street, forever disabled due to a vaccine preventable disease? Ever spoken to the parent of a college kid who died from meningitis - a disease that is still prevalent in college campuses TODAY? It's one thing to say you feel the risk is low in the current time (entirely due to vaccination, I might point out) but to say you're not worried about the diseases astounds me. Natural immunity is great and all but let's not forget that vaccine preventable diseases can (a) kill or (b) severely disable their victim. They might not, but they CAN!

What I don't get is that people choose not to vaccinate because they feel the risk of getting the disease is lower than the risk caused by the vaccine. Don't you realise that these diseases do still exist (they haven't been eradicated, like small pox) and as fewer and fewer people have their children vaccinated, the risk of the disease coming back increases. The only reason that the risk of these diseases is low in this country today is because of vaccination!
Vaccination isn't the only reason the risk of VPDs is lower in our country. You cannot discount sanitation, better health in general, better access to healthcare, clean water, more nutritional information, etc. Stats have shown that vaccines are typically introduced into the market when the incidence of disease is already on the decline. They just choose not to show the entire line graph when showing the downward trend and when vaccines were introduced.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8610554679207090010

By the way, since you (mistakenly) mention whooping cough as a concern with respect to the iron lung, pay attention to the section of video around 5 minutes 10 seconds. Watch again at about 13 minutes into it...they talk about why the pertussis vaccine isn't really effective anyway (there are *always* outbreaks of pertussis, despite high levels of immunization).

You're welcome to do your own research and fear the VPDs and vaccinate your own children as a result. Nobody will criticize you for that. So, why would you criticize someone else for feeling more fear of the vaccines than the VPDs based upon their own research? There are some pretty nasty things inside those vaccines that have the potential to do damage to a person's body. But when the consequences of injecting those ingredients into a person's body are delayed, it is hard to definitively prove a causal relationship. That doesn't mean there is not a causal relationship between the vaccine ingredients and certain diseases. For example, many vaccines contain known carcinogens. Is cancer an acceptable risk of vaccinating just because the cancer might not happen immediately? Not in my opinion...

[mimieliza]

I hear this all the time and don't understand it. If you believe vaccines work and your children are vax'd, what's the point?

Vaccines work, but no vax works 100% of the time. I would rather have, say, a 95% reduction in susceptibility to a particular disease than no reduction in susceptibility.

This is also why I started vaccines almost on time (started when DD was three months old). DTaP, for instance, provides pretty good protection starting with the first dose - not 100%, but better than nothing. Since most vax-preventable diseases are most serious in young babies, I wanted DD vaxed while she was still very young.

In the US, I would not be particularly concerned about having DD around unvaxed children. But if I lived in a country with regular outbreaks of VPD, I would definitely do what AmyE does and keep my children away from unvaxed kids during an outbreak.

[HGMorgann]

erickajarrett actually, the "outbreak" in MN was due to the oral vaccine, not "real" polio. From Dr.Sears:

Oct. 19 - Four Cases of Polio Caused by the Polio Vaccine found among Amish in Minnesota
A member of an Amish community who got an oral polio vaccine in another country has spread the disease to a few non-vaccinated members of the community. In the U.S., we no longer use the oral polio vaccine for this reason – the vaccine actually can spread the disease. The injected polio vaccine used in the U.S. doesn’t create this risk. The last case of wild (natural) polio in the U.S. was in 1979. Parents should not be concerned over this incident. The vaccine-induced outbreak will likely be confined to that unvaccinated community in Minnesota.

[jesvet]

After doing my research and thinking hard on it, I decided to go with vaccination on a slightly delayed schedule. Like anything in medical care, it's a personal decision and as long as each parent makes that decision on a well informed basis I don't choose to judge. I have noticed in some of my acquaintance circles (not here) that the non-vaccination thing is almost the "trendy" thing to do, and people are doing it because they heard from so and so that they are bad so they're just not doing it. Without any understanding of exactly what they are risking or not, and that worries me more than any discussion here where everyone is quite well informed on both sides of the argument.

We live in a border community with a high percentage of unvaccinated children, and higher than national average incidences of outbreaks. That was a big factor for me that might not be for others. I decided against the chicken pox vaccine for my oldest for the reasons many mentioned- I would rather have natural disease occur to prevent shingles later on. I changed my mind a year later, though, when my ped mentioned that now it's become much more difficult to FIND anyone with the natural disease, so the kids are still ending up unexposed as teens and older. I can see how someone could decide one way or the other on this one, easily.

Vaccines are not a panacea, not a guarantee of immunity. They are a biologic item that is not benign, not without risks. Some are better than others. That being said, they are an incrediby effective tool on a large scale and it's nice to see so many people getting educated and involved in the discussion.

[Kanga]

What I don't get is that people choose not to vaccinate because they feel the risk of getting the disease is lower than the risk caused by the vaccine.

Actually, according to the CDC, you are more likely to get an adverse reaction than a VPD.

Don't you realise that these diseases do still exist (they haven't been eradicated, like small pox) and as fewer and fewer people have their children vaccinated, the risk of the disease coming back increases. The only reason that the risk of these diseases is low in this country today is because of vaccination!


I realize they still exist, which is why i hope to expose my kids to CP and measles. Highly doubt i'll ever find measles, so i don't actively look for it, but if i do i'll be exposing my kids. And lml already said exactly what i was going to say in regards to vaccines being responsible for the decline in disease. I'll also add that i wished most people would stop vaccinating their kids so i could find these diseases. dd1 was 6 mo old during the mumps outbreak here so i wasn't comfortable exposing her then but had she been old enough to talk well i would have.

I also believe that many people (many, not all) who are affected severly but VPD is because their immune system is compromised in some way. Be it just because, nutrition, genetics, poor living conditions, etc. And if they're immune system is already compromised, a good chance they would also suffer from an adverse reaction from a vaccine.

Wow, I find this to be an absolutely amazing statement. Have you ever seen a person inflicted with a vaccine preventable disease? Have you ever spoken to someone who has been severely affected by a vaccine preventable disease to get their take on this? Ever been to a museum with pictures and recordings and stories of kids who had to live in an iron lung because of the whooping cough - a disease of which there was a huge outbreak in my town (ordinary old suburban US town) just this summer. Ever seen an old person who had Polio hobbling down the street, forever disabled due to a vaccine preventable disease? Ever spoken to the parent of a college kid who died from meningitis - a disease that is still prevalent in college campuses TODAY? It's one thing to say you feel the risk is low in the current time (entirely due to vaccination, I might point out) but to say you're not worried about the diseases astounds me. Natural immunity is great and all but let's not forget that vaccine preventable diseases can (a) kill or (b) severely disable their victim. They might not, but they CAN!

What I don't get is that people choose not to vaccinate because they feel the risk of getting the disease is lower than the risk caused by the vaccine. Don't you realise that these diseases do still exist (they haven't been eradicated, like small pox) and as fewer and fewer people have their children vaccinated, the risk of the disease coming back increases. The only reason that the risk of these diseases is low in this country today is because of vaccination!

Absolutely everything you said here can be flipped 180 and said about vaccinations. Have you ever seen a victim of an AR due to vaccines? Have you ever spoken to someone who has been severly affected by vaccines and gotten their take on it? Ever looked up the VAERS report to see all the children who have died from vax's? Ever seen a child struggle to fit in school and be constantly ridiculed because he doesn't understand social situations due Autism or Asperger's caused by vaccines. Sure you can say autism isn't a true AR, but the fact is they don't know exactly WHAT does so until they do, I'll believe the parents who saw their normal healthy talking 3, 4 even 12 year old suddenly turn quiet and withdrawn the exact same day as receiving a vaccine then slowly return to normal as heavy metals and toxins are removed through purification from their body/system?

And if these so called 'immunizations' actually worked as well as the manufactures say they do, then there wouldn't be outbreaks in 100% vaxed communities in the first place. A few cases here or there sure, but not dozens and dozens. I'm specially referring to CP in elementary schools.

[Nigellas]

Actually, just looked up last polio outbreak and it was in October 2005 in Minnesota, was first one in 26 yrs.

That "outbreak" was actually CAUSED by the vaccine. (which is just wack)

[kemorr]

[QUOTE=lml41981;1487286]Nobody will criticize you for that. So, why would you criticize someone else for feeling more fear of the vaccines than the VPDs based upon their own research? QUOTE]

Well, actually, I said that I was astounded by the fact that she wasn't frightened by those diseases AT ALL. I did specifically say in my post that I could understand someone who thinks the risk of the disease is lower than the risk of the vaccine (although I don't agree with them) but I can not understand someone who is not at all worried about the diseases. Doing research and deciding on a risk versus benefit ratio that you're comfortable with is an entirely different statment to saying that the diseases themselves don't cause you any concern at all.

[kemorr]

Ever seen a child struggle to fit in school and be constantly ridiculed because he doesn't understand social situations due Autism or Asperger's caused by vaccines. Sure you can say autism isn't a true AR, but the fact is they don't know exactly WHAT does so until they do, I'll believe the parents who saw their normal healthy talking 3, 4 even 12 year old suddenly turn quiet and withdrawn the exact same day as receiving a vaccine then slowly return to normal as heavy metals and toxins are removed through purification from their body/system?.

Well, we know that vaccines provide good protection against disease (I know, not 100%, but what in life is 100%), but we really don't know that vaccines cause autism/aspergers and several scientific studies have refuted this claim, so speaking to someone who has been affected negatively by a disease is a little different to speaking with someone who only MAY HAVE (but probably not) been negatively affected by a vaccine by developing autism. I know vaccines aren't 100% safe (once again what in life is 100%) but I know that the VPD are a lot less safe than the vaccines.

Now, that being said, I do agree somewhat with the whole CP debate. CP is on a totally different scale to Polio, menigitis, measles etc IMO. It is a relatively minor disease in MOST circumstances. So my comments are not directed toward this vaccine.

[Kanga]

Well, we know that vaccines provide good protection against disease (I know, not 100%, but what in life is 100%), but we really don't know that vaccines cause autism/aspergers and several scientific studies have refuted this claim, so speaking to someone who has been affected negatively by a disease is a little different to speaking with someone who only MAY HAVE (but probably not) been negatively affected by a vaccine by developing autism.

Exactly. We don't know that they do, I don't know that they don't. There are also several studies that say they do cause autism and several articles that explain why the studies proving that vaccines don't cause autism are incorrect. You can find information to back up anything you want. So for now, until they DO prove what DOES cause it, better safe than sorry.

I know vaccines aren't 100% safe (once again what in life is 100%) but I know that the VPD are a lot less safe than the vaccines.


That's your opinion. If you vaccinate you definitely run the risk of an AR. If you don't, you may never come into contact with the disease and if you do you may be asymptomatic.

[Ericka_Jarett]

HG - just was stating that there was an outbreak, no matter how it happened, it was an outbreak just the same according to the report I read. (Comment was made to correct if other info was found, the other info was that there was that MN outbreak, so I stated it as such, be if from the disease or vaccine)


I see it as people will vaccinate as they see fit and some won't do it at all. It's a personal choice and I will do what I think is best for my own child. We have personally decided against only the chicken pox vaccine and will do so for as long as we want. The debating vaccines will continue probably forever amongst people. It's like everything in life you can please some of the people some of the time but not all the people all the time. (how I raise my children, how I had my pregnancies, how I delivered, how I live my life)

[AmyE]

Kanga "I also believe that many people who are affected severely by VPD is because their immune system is compromised in some way."


Every parent will make his/her own choices, but I would be very leery of saying that things like polio and typhoid have serious long-term consequences, but really only if you are already somehow compromised by poor nutrition, etc. I don't buy that at all.

That wasn't the case either for my dad (upper middle class, mid west, etc etc) nor my lily-white, wealthy family friend Laura with typhoid.

Wow. Sorry Kanga, I can agree to disagree with you on 90% of this, but not the idea that "oh, you'll be fine unless you are poor/diseased already and don't eat right."

And yes, there are adverse reactions to vaccines. My kids ran a low-grade fever with one, and my oldest had a strawberry sized rash at the MMR site.

I don't consider either of those "adverse reactions" so problematic that I'd risk the diseases.

Oh, and the only kids affected by the polio outbreak in the US were the ones who were not vaccinated. The vaccinated kids had no problems. Fortunately, none of the unvaccinated kids had any long-term consequences.

[Ericka_Jarett]

Polio wasn't called a rich man's disease for nothing.

polio.com: Polio was one of the most dreaded childhood diseases of the 20th century in the United States. Polio epidemics crippled thousands of people, mostly young children, each year.1

Most of us don't remember how terrified parents were that polio would leave their children unable to walk or force them to spend the rest of their lives in an iron lung.

Since the polio vaccines became available, the disease has more or less disappeared from the US and the Western Hemisphere. But it still occurs in some parts of the world...1,2

A single infection brought into the US by someone traveling from a country where polio still persists could possibly lead to polio epidemics again if we were not protected. That is why we continue to vaccinate.

You can't get the polio virus from the polio vaccine since it is inactivated.

[Kanga]

Wow. Sorry Kanga, I can agree to disagree with you on 90% of this, but not the idea that "oh, you'll be fine unless you are poor/diseased already and don't eat right."

And yes, there are adverse reactions to vaccines. My kids ran a low-grade fever with one, and my oldest had a strawberry sized rash at the MMR site.

I don't consider either of those "adverse reactions" so problematic that I'd risk the diseases.

Oh, and the only kids affected by the polio outbreak in the US were the ones who were not vaccinated. The vaccinated kids had no problems. Fortunately, none of the unvaccinated kids had any long-term consequences.


That's a far cry from what I said. If you actually read what i wrote rather than twisting my words, you'll note that I said "many" not "all". If you have a weakened immune system it's common sense that you are more likely to get sick.

And FTR, the polio 'outbreak' was CAUSED BY opv. OPV sheds. So what now..we need a vax to protect us from other vax's????

I'm glad your kids didn't suffer any serious complications from their vaxes, but what does that tell us? Absolutely nothing since it's anecdotal. Your kids are fine, but some are burried.

Anyways, you aren't going to convince me to vax my kids and vice versa, so agreeing to disagree from here on out.

[MrsT]

I'm pretty sure we're not getting the CP at all, but I wonder how this will affect daycare for us. DS only goes to drop in from time to time. I was thinking of just not getting it done and not mentioning it to them.

If the daycare hasn't asked about other shots, I wouldn't imagine they would ask about this one. (So why say you didn't do it?).

In our case, my DS (2.5) starts preschool tomorrow and he doesn't have the CP or the Hep B vaccines which are required for schools/preschools. (I've done all others but would like to wait on the CP and probably never get the HB)I got him an exemption form from the state - but since it is a private school and does not receive govt funds, they could have rejected his entry. (Seeing how it is MY church school, I did not think they would raise the issue - and they haven't).

I'm in TX - and that's following our state law (my need for the religious or consciencous exemption). I just had to send for the form, get it notarized and give it to the school. You might look up your own state's rules regarding daycares and what their requirements are...

[emmjay]

I don't consider myself either pro- or anti-vax. Really, I am just totally confused by the information out there regarding the effectiveness of and reactions to vaccines! I guess I think that some vaxes are good (like polio) and many are unnecessary (like CP and Hep B), but I wish there was some conclusive information out there.

I just read about this survey: Cal-Oregon Unvaccinated Survey (http://www.generationrescue.org/survey.html) and I just don't know what to think.

Summary:
We surveyed over 9,000 boys [aged 4-17] in California and Oregon and found that vaccinated boys had a 155% greater chance of having a neurological disorder like ADHD or autism than unvaccinated boys.

Any thoughts about it? I have to say, it makes me nervous, even though it is just a survey and not a scientific study. But wouldn't the older kids who have the higher prevalence of autism/ADHD/etc. have had the pre-1999 shots with mercury in them? So I wonder if in another 5-10 years there would be different survey results. I find this all to be so frustrating! It's so hard to know what is the right thing to do.

Right now DS had all of his shots up until 6 months but I didn't get any of his 12m shots yet (he is 13m now) because I now feel uncomfortable with having him get any more. I ended up asking the ped to mail me the vax schedule (I'm having another baby in Nov) along with all of the literature so I can do more research before giving him any more shots.

[alisong]

I just read about this survey: Cal-Oregon Unvaccinated Survey (http://www.generationrescue.org/survey.html) and I just don't know what to think.I think they don't know the first thing about epidemiology or statistics - what, did they use Excel to perform their analysis? Couldn't they have spent some of the $200,000 on a copy of Stata or SAS, or even downloaded a copy of Epi Info for free from the CDC's website? ;) Why no confidence intervals or p-values?

This section:All vaccinated boys, compared to unvaccinated boys:
- Vaccinated boys were 155% more likely to have a neurological disorder (RR 2.55)
- Vaccinated boys were 224% more likely to have ADHD (RR 3.24)
- Vaccinated boys were 61% more likely to have autism (RR 1.61) Leads me to believe whoever performed the analysis has never taken even an elementary epidemiology course, as this just isn't the way risks are reported in the scientific literature (I would say something like "vaccinated boys were 3.24 times as likely to have ADHD [95% CI XX, XX, p-value=xxx]"). Also, I'm curious as to why the study hasn't been published in a peer-reviewed journal.

I wouldn't worry too much about results from a study like this.

[emmjay]

alisong - I was hoping someone with more statistical knowledge than I have would respond! I didn't like the way the risks were reported in percentages like that b/c it made me feel like they were being deliberately inflammatory (i.e. "155% more likely" sounds a lot worse than "2.55 times"). Thanks for your comments. :)

[miaclear]

Ok... you know when you go to a shower and you have to fill out those stupid cards with "advice for the mom to be." My advice from here on out is going to be read up on vaccinations and your baby BEFORE you have the baby.

ETA- I had a question here but I've answered it myself. The above still stands true ;)

[Sevilla]

Here is the CDC's official document on the Hep B vaccine - http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/hepb.pdf

According to them, only 3 doses are prescribed and although the spacing between the 2nd and 3rd doses should have been further, it is still valid. I would decline the 4th dose.

I do NOT understand why Hep B is given to infants when the duration of immunity is 'at least 20 years' when the time a person is most at risk for doing risky behavior to acquire it is beginning in the late teens/early 20's but certainly doesn't drop off until the 30's I would think (multiple partners, injection drug use, etc...), especially since the CDC has not authorized any sort of booster - so once you complete the primary series, that's all the immunity you're able to get.

[Kanga]

Sevilla - I really don't know why either, but my best guess is that since their reasoning for vaxing newborns against an STD to begin with to create herd immunity and wipe out the disease that by the time the babies are 20yo, hep B will be a thing of the past. Vaxing newborns less than an hour old for anything makes 0 sense to me. The only exception being if the mother's hep b status was unknown and had a vaginal birth. If they have a reaction there is no way to know if the vaccine caused it or if the baby would have been that way anyways.

[miaclear]

Thanks Sevilla....if they do offer me a fourth HepB vax I will question it and likely decline it. Didn't seem right to me. If I had done my research earlier I would have declined the vax till DS was older.

[alisong]

I do NOT understand why Hep B is given to infants when the duration of immunity is 'at least 20 years' when the time a person is most at risk for doing risky behavior to acquire it is beginning in the late teens/early 20's but certainly doesn't drop off until the 30's I would think (multiple partners, injection drug use, etc...), especially since the CDC has not authorized any sort of booster - so once you complete the primary series, that's all the immunity you're able to get.My best guess is that it's because the risk of chronic infection is vastly higher for individuals infected with HBV as infants (somewhere around 50%, from memory), and of those a very high proportion will go on to develop liver cancer. So, while the risk of infection is much lower for infants, it is not zero, and the lifelong consequences of infection are likely to be very serious. Someone infected in their 30s actually has a very small chance of becoming chronically infected, and will likely clear the infection and suffer no long-term consequences.

[Rico'sAlice]

My best guess is that it's because the risk of chronic infection is vastly higher for individuals infected with HBV as infants (somewhere around 50%, from memory), and of those a very high proportion will go on to develop liver cancer. So, while the risk of infection is much lower for infants, it is not zero, and the lifelong consequences of infection are likely to be very serious. Someone infected in their 30s actually has a very small chance of becoming chronically infected, and will likely clear the infection and suffer no long-term consequences.

What is your source for that information? I haven't looked into this a ton but the one study I did look at suggested pretty much the opposite. But it is a new study and I'm not sure it has been through peer review and what not yet, so maybe other studies have stronger credibility or something. :confused:
Favorable prognosis seen in children with chronic hepatitis B (http://www.asco.org/portal/site/ASCO/menuitem.d773f70619f767fd506fe310ee37a01d/?vgnextoid=4cca201eb61a7010VgnVCM100000ed730ad1RCR D&reuterview=detail_view&reutersid=7303)
Although chronic hepatitis B generally manifests as mild disease in children and young adults, the authors explain, data regarding its long-term course are scarce.

Dr. Raffaele Iorio and colleagues from University "Federico II," Naples, Italy evaluated the clinical, biochemical, virological, and histological features of chronic hepatitis B virus (HBV) infection in 108 children without concomitant chronic systemic diseases followed for up to 24 years.

During the period of observation, 41 children were treated with interferon-alpha and 67 were untreated.

All patients were asymptomatic at presentation and remained symptom-free during follow-up, apart from adverse effects related to interferon-alpha treatment, the authors report.

None of the children developed evidence of hepatocellular carcinoma. Histological assessment in 57 of the subjects "showed mild-to-moderate disease in 91.2%."

-----------
All the other info I can has rates of HepB infection being chronic in infants & children, and then outlook for all chronic patients (Mostly seems that w/o monitoring & treatment that ~10% develop liver cancer and 25% have some type of liver failure (including that attributed to liver cancer)- but does not look specifically at outcomes for those infected as infants/children. Of course some (many?) of that 25% figure could have concomitant chronic systemic diseases which would affect the numbers.

[kmack]

hi, can someone please tell me what the general schedule is for the polio vaccine? DD is sleeping so i can't get into her room to double-check everything and i can't seem to find the general schedule for the state of MA online. she is 26 mos. old and i know she already received 2 shots for it, when i went for her 2 yr. visit the ped. said she was due for a 3rd shot which surprised me b/c i didn't remember seeing it on the schedule. i switched peds so just want to make sure she doesn't get a shot that she already had. thanks!

[daphne]

kmack IPV is combined into the Pediarix vax in my area, and is scheduled to be given at 2 mo, 4mo, and 6months. Then a booster IPV is scheduled at 4 years. 4 doses are required for kindergarten in MA.

[Sevilla]

Kmack - There are 4 doses of IPV (polio) and the official schedule is 2 mos, 4 mos, 6 mos, and booster before Kindergarten. (We did a delayed schedule for polio at 6, 12, and 15 months). One thing I am a bit confused about is that the schedule calls for 4-5 doses of IPV, yet according to the government's CDC link below 99% of persons develop immunity after just 3 doses.

Here's the official CDC page on it - http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/polio.pdf

I cannot say enough how *helpful* the CDC 'Pink Book' is - all the data and information right at your fingertips.

[kmack]

ok, thanksdaphneand sevilla. i checked DD's book and she got the IPV at 2 mos and 5 mos. my MA recommended schedule suggests getting the third dose between 6 and 18 mos and the fourth between 4-6 yo - i wonder if i end up getting it much later than that (DD is almost 27 mos) it will affect anything?

thanks for that link sevilla!

[alisong]

What is your source for that information? I haven't looked into this a ton but the one study I did look at suggested pretty much the opposite. But it is a new study and I'm not sure it has been through peer review and what not yet, so maybe other studies have stronger credibility or something. :confused:
Favorable prognosis seen in children with chronic hepatitis B (http://www.asco.org/portal/site/ASCO/menuitem.d773f70619f767fd506fe310ee37a01d/?vgnextoid=4cca201eb61a7010VgnVCM100000ed730ad1RCR D&reuterview=detail_view&reutersid=7303)


-----------
All the other info I can has rates of HepB infection being chronic in infants & children, and then outlook for all chronic patients (Mostly seems that w/o monitoring & treatment that ~10% develop liver cancer and 25% have some type of liver failure (including that attributed to liver cancer)- but does not look specifically at outcomes for those infected as infants/children. Of course some (many?) of that 25% figure could have concomitant chronic systemic diseases which would affect the numbers.My class notes (from a viruses and cancer class) say 25% of chronically-infected individuals go on to develop liver cancer, and that 40% of chronically-infected Chinese men die of liver cancer. Given that ~90% of neonatal infections with HBV result in chronic infection, that's - what? - 23% of neonatal infections resulting in liver cancer. If you're really interested, I'm sure I can dig up the source articles, but they're not readily available (er, packed away in boxes).

[miaclear]

HepB in babies. I just read this chapter in Dr Sears new The Vaccine Book and he referenced both these as reasons for the shot.

KANGA: but my best guess is that since their reasoning for vaxing newborns against an STD to begin with to create herd immunity and wipe out the disease that by the time the babies are 20yo, hep B will be a thing of the past.

alisong: it's because the risk of chronic infection is vastly higher for individuals infected with HBV as infants (somewhere around 50%, from memory), and of those a very high proportion will go on to develop liver cancer. So, while the risk of infection is much lower for infants, it is not zero, and the lifelong consequences of infection are likely to be very serious.

He also agreed that unless the mother is HepB + the vax can wait till the 2month WBV however most hospitals don't offer this as a choice and just go right with the shot at birth. I wish I would have done more research before having DS....I would have waited on that shot.

[basketcase]

miaclear~ How is Sears' new Vaccine Book? I'm curious to know how people like it, for those who have read it. (I still need to run out and pick up a copy.)

[miaclear]

Femmie...I'm only halfway through but so far I like how unbiased it is. I just read What your Dr May NOT Tell you about Vaccines and that book I liked alright but I felt like the author was pressuring me into believing her beliefs. Dr Sears is very here's the deal, to the point. I also like how up to date it is! The other book even though published five years ago is SO out of date. This one has everything in it that seems to relate to what we're being presented with now. He clearly goes through the different vaccines, the different brands available, how each are made and what ingredients are in them. Oh....and I never knew Dr Sears was a comedian....he clearly tries to present himself as a real person and not just a Expert.

[mel7dog]

Glad to head good things about the Dr. Sears book. I pre-ordered it from Amazon a few weeks ago, so it should be here anyday. I think the actual release date is 10/22, today!

[miaclear]

mel7dog....I preordered it from Amazon too. I got mine on Thursday or Friday I think.

[mel7dog]

mel7dog....I preordered it from Amazon too. I got mine on Thursday or Friday I think.

Oh man, where is mine?!

[Sevilla]

I can't wait to get my book either!!!

[Rico'sAlice]

Just as an aside-
Not saying it matters one way or the other, but just to be clear the author of The Vaccine Book is not the Dr. Sears who wrote The Baby Book, The Discipline Book, etc (although he did collaborate on updated editions). Those are from William, this is his son Robert.
They were on Dr. Phil together (w/other brother James) http://drphil.com/shows/show/824/

[miaclear]

Rico's Alice.....That's funny you said that. His picture was on the back of The Vaccine Book and I thought to myself....."I never knew Dr Sears was so young and good looking!" Thanks for pointing it out.

[basketcase]

Thanks for the review, miaclear! I just ordered mine on Amazon. Eager to read it!

FWIW, our pediatrician is very delayed/selective-vax-friendly. (She delays/selectively-vaxes her own children.) When parents ask her about delaying vaxes, she gives them a handout of a sample schedule that Dr. Sears recommends. That's what initially made me interested in the book!

[excitedbride]

I read through this thread quickly, I have a question.

My DD is going to be 18months next month and she is due to have the DTAP, I think it is a follow up to one she has already had. I wish I had done my research before I had both my children, but I cannot change the past, I can only reasearch and educate myself now. I am hesitant to have her get this shot. Will it be a big deal if I delay it?

[Marisa]

I can't find anything on the CDC site about the maximum time between dose 3 and dose 4 on the DTaP -- only that the 4th dose should be at least 6 months after the 3rd. (I'm assuming that if she's 18m then the dose you're looking to skip is the 4th.)

I would ask your dr. whether delaying the fourth dose would negate the earlier three doses in some way. FWIW, the DTaP is one of the only shots we did relatively "on time" (polio is the other) -- at 2, 4, 6m and at 15m for Joey.

[Kanga]

excitedbride - here is the link to the manufacturer's inserts. They all include DTaP, but some have other vax's in them too.

Aventis Pasteur Limited's DAPTACEL (http://www.vaccineshoppe.com/US_PDF/DAPTACEL_4757_12.03.pdf)

GlaxoSmithKline's http://us.gsk.com/products/assets/us_infanrix.pdf

Sanofi Pastuer's Tripedia (http://www.vaccineshoppe.com/US_PDF/Tripedia_4620_4.04.pdf)

GSK's Pediarix (http://us.gsk.com/products/assets/us_pediarix.pdf) - also includes HepB and IPV

As far as delaying goes, I think pretty much everyone agrees that if you're not comfortable giving the shot, then there is no harm in dealying it a few months until you have more time to make a decision. The last thing you want to do is feel rushed to make a decision and end up doing something you regret and can't take back. As for tetanus, it's pretty much unheard of for a child to get it, and it does not spread from person to person. Should your child catch it, there's always the tetanus immune globulin (IIRC, it's TiG). As for diptheria, there's the diptheria toxoid if your child catches it. Highly highly unlikely though as there has only been a handful (as in less than 5) cases reported in recent years. Pertussis is a cyclical disease, I think it goes in 7 year cycles IIRC. Pertussis is most serious in babies under 6 mo, and catching the disease usually gains immunity, though it's not really clear as to how long that immunity lasts. As for the vaccine, it's one of the most reactive and can't really be split. You can get DT, which is diptheria and tetanus, but there is no such thing as a single pertussis vaccine. I do know that if one of the doses is given after a certain age, then there is only 4 needed, rather than 5. I think it's if the 4th dose is given after the age of 4, then no need for a 5th, but don't quote me on that, so basically skipping the one at 18-20 months.

[excitedbride]

Thank you so much for the info ladies, I really appreciate it!

[allyray231]

excited I know for Aiden he missed his 4th dose of the prevnar ( I forget what the name of the vax is) because I wasn't sure if he had gotten it at the old ped (we switched peds). When I realized he did need it, they said not to worry about it (I wanted a while to get it and they don't recomended it past 2-he was already 2 and a few months) and he was fine with 3 doses.

Now I am not sure that is the case with the DTaP. I know we got those on schedule

[Sevilla]

I got the Dr Sears vaccine book today and already finished reading it. If you are a selective/delayed vaxer - it is an INDISPENSIBLE resource. I love that it is so balanced and up to date. Concise, easy to read and understand, thorough, and very helpful without being dogmatic. The section I liked least were the 'What i think' sections at the end of each chapter that were pretty pro-vax, but the chapter content itself is so helpful and balanced - i didn't find it either anti-vax or pro-vax and it was not scare-mongering either.

I can't wait to hear other people's perspectives on the book!

A few things that I learned from it:

1. The whole '36,000 people die of the flu each year' statistic is untrue - the actual number is between 100-150 people.

2. The Hib and Prevnar vaccines have led to decreases in those diseases, but other Pneumoccocal viruses have grown to prominence instead - so those vaccines do not protect from all meningitis type risk (in one hospital, 96% of pneumoccocal infections were strains NOT included in the Prevnar vax - that was very eye-opening for me!). I guess the saying is true - Nature abhors a vaccum. One disease gets eliminated, another rises to take its place.

3. How freaky some of the vaccine ingredients are! Aluminum and formaldehyde don't eek me out, but monkey cells, cow blood serum, and human DNA all really do.

[mel7dog]

I finally got my copy yesterday and have read a few chapters so far. I consider it a very balanced book. I was actually expecting it to me more anti-vax/delayed vax. LOTS of good info and easy to follow and understand. I am glad I am starting with this book because it lays everything out there in a neutral way and helps me start to understand and complicated world of vaccinations.

[jimmysgirl424]

I'm reading the book "What your doctor may not tell you about children's vaccinations" and have found something I want to investigate more. It recommends asking for the measles, mumps and rubella shot as separate vaccines instead of getting the MMR. However, it says that it was announced in 2002 that separate doses would not be available and they weren't sure if and when they would be again. Has anyone here had their child vaccinated separately for these diseases rather than getting the MMR? I can't find any up to date information as to whether or not its even available right now.

I have to say that while I have lots of questions and doubts regarding vaccinating DD, my DH is infuriating me by refusing to even consider the possibility that it might not be such a great idea to delay or not get certain vaccines. Anyone else having this issue?

[mommydearest]

Chicken Pox--why or why not vaccinate? I'm so on the fence about this one. I got CP and was fine. However, DD goes to daycare at my moms, who is also caring for my grandmother and grandfather. G'ma is very frail and it would be medically awful if she got shingles. However, I hate to vaccinate DD on the chance that she MIGHT get CP and she might give my g'ma shingles without other more concrete reasons. I have done all the other vaccinations on schedule except roto, which my ped won't even give, though I decided against that one long before I found that out.

So, please help me to know why I should or should not skip this one.

[Marisa]

Kristen -- one thing that might give me pause is the fact that in some cases, children who receive the CP vax will shed the live virus for a few days, or even contract a (very mild) form of the disease. If I were in your position, I'd weigh the risk of her contracting it naturally (which is rare these days, esp. if she's not around other children) with the risk of her either manifesting symptoms after the vax, or shedding the virus around your GP. My MIL (a teacher) actually had shingles about 2 years ago; she was around several children who had recently received their boosters but had no exposure to children who were actually sick with CP.

[NYN]

RE: The Vaccine Book...I find it so funny how differently people have interpreted this book. I read an advanced copy a while ago (I actually posted a review of it in the other thread). I found it to be very much pro-vax. I also thought his delayed schedule was disturbingly heavy and pushed too many uncecessary vax's on infants younger than 6 months (though to be perfectly honest, I read it a while ago so I can't tell you why exactly I felt that way). However, I loved, loved, loved that he devoted so much space to talking about how exclusive breastfeeding is your best defense against the childhood diseases we have vaccines for and like most Dr. Sears books I think it does a good job of introducing an issue I think all new parents should be aware of, so I would recommend it.

[alisong]

Chicken Pox--why or why not vaccinate? I'm so on the fence about this one. I got CP and was fine. However, DD goes to daycare at my moms, who is also caring for my grandmother and grandfather. G'ma is very frail and it would be medically awful if she got shingles. However, I hate to vaccinate DD on the chance that she MIGHT get CP and she might give my g'ma shingles without other more concrete reasons. I have done all the other vaccinations on schedule except roto, which my ped won't even give, though I decided against that one long before I found that out.

So, please help me to know why I should or should not skip this one.Shingles is a reactivation of the chicken pox virus, so your daughter couldn't give it to your grandmother.

[betsyboop]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure you can't catch shingles. I think it's a flare up of the dormant chicken pox virus that's already in your system from when you had it as a kid. At least, that's what we were told when DH had shingles the summer before last.

[Marisa]

Shingles is a reactivation of the chicken pox virus, so your daughter couldn't give it to your grandmother.

This is confusing me. I thought that if a person had had chicken pox in the past, and then was reexposed to the virus at a time when their immunity had waned or they were particularly susceptible, the resulting infection would manifest as shingles.

I'm asking Dr. Google about it right now ;) -- I found this on the U. of Maryland vaccine site:

Side Effects of the Varicella (Chickenpox) Vaccine
[...]
* Risk of Transmission. The vaccine may produce a mild rash within about a month of the vaccination, which can transmit chickenpox to others. Individuals who have recently been vaccinated should avoid close contact with anyone who might be susceptible to severe complications from chickenpox until the risk for a rash passes.

There is a shingles vaccine for older adults, actually, but obviously that is for people with stronger immune systems.

[alisong]

This is confusing me. I thought that if a person had had chicken pox in the past, and then was reexposed to the virus at a time when their immunity had waned or they were particularly susceptible, the resulting infection would manifest as shingles.Nope - there's actually speculation that it's exactly opposite. Repeated exposure to chicken pox may help prevent shingles (which is essentially the premise of the shingles vaccine).

[Marisa]

Ok, I'm not finding any article that speaks directly to my question, and naptime is over. :) So I guess what I'm confused about is this:

If Kristen's elderly grandparents have had chicken pox in their lives (and therefore have the virus in their systems) but are no longer fully immune (perhaps thanks to other illnesses that are impairing their immune systems in general) -- would exposure to the live virus shedding, or the possible mild infection from the vaccine, cause the dormant virus to resurface? Or would it be just a coincidence if they did wind up developing shingles?

I have a few family members involved in schools, and I've heard (anecdotally of course) of more folks than just my MIL getting sick around 6 weeks into a new school year. If students were vaccinated to comply with NJ public school regulations in September that would fit the 1-month timeframe in the post above... or should I assume that perhaps the stories I've heard are from people who have never had chicken pox, and are old enough that the virus immediately manifests as shingles?

(Didn't think I'd spend this much time thinking about CP this afternoon...!)

alisong -- we cross-posted. I found some other interesting info about studies showing that shingles may be on the rise again thanks to the CP vaccine; fewer adults are coming into contact with children carrying the virus. They said that they now believe this is why older adults are more susceptible (55+) -- because they have less exposure in general to small children. So I can see where they might now see the need for another vaccine for older folks.

[alisong]

If Kristen's elderly grandparents have had chicken pox in their lives (and therefore have the virus in their systems) but are no longer fully immune (perhaps thanks to other illnesses that are impairing their immune systems in general) -- would exposure to the live virus shedding, or the possible mild infection from the vaccine, cause the dormant virus to resurface? Or would it be just a coincidence if they did wind up developing shingles?

I have a few family members involved in schools, and I've heard (anecdotally of course) of more folks than just my MIL getting sick around 6 weeks into a new school year. If students were vaccinated to comply with NJ public school regulations in September that would fit the 1-month timeframe in the post above... or should I assume that perhaps the stories I've heard are from people who have never had chicken pox, and are old enough that the virus immediately manifests as shingles?AFAIK, it's not possible to get shingles as the primary infection syndrome of VZV. Chicken pox is a generalized infection - which is why you get pox all over the body. Shingles requies infection with VZV (usually accompanied by chicken pox), followed by the virus becoming dormant and living in nerve cells in the gangleon, then it's reactivated and subsequent shingles. This is why shingles is generally restricted to only one area of the body - and why it's a sign of serious trouble if the rash crosses the midline of the body (indicating a more generalized infection).

That's interesting about your MIL! I might suspect that the real cause is the stress (and mild immunosuppression) associated with the new school year, but I'd love to see studies. ;)

[Sevilla]

Jimmysgirl - I would recommend the Dr. Sears book over Stephanie Caves book. I've read both and found Sears more factual and balanced, plus it is brand new and up to date, and SC's book is woefully outdated. I would have your DH read the Dr Sears book with you - especially the chapters on ingredients (aluminu especially!), risk factors, and possible reactions. I believe in vaxing, but I don't believe in the CDC's schedule and it scares me that the aluminum levels in shots are not tested for safety.

Mommydearest - I would not give the CP vax in that situation b/c of the chance of exposing the gparents as it is live virus.

[Kanga]

jimmysgirl - You most definitely can seperate the MMR. Some (a lot?) of dr.'s offices don't carry it seperate though because the are required to order in lots and don't always have the demand they need to use up the shots before they expire. If yours doesn't carry it, you do have a couple options though. Call around and see if anybody else can get it for you, offer to buy the entire lot (IIRC there are 10 in a lot but don't quote me), or order it directly from the pharmacy. They'll send it to you, you refridgerate until your next appt, and then the nurse administers it. One thing to keep in mind when seperating. While you are lessening the amount of live viruses in the system at one time, you're also increasing the overall ingredients and toxins associated with a vaccine over all.

[Sevilla]

One thing to keep in mind when seperating. While you are lessening the amount of live viruses in the system at one time, you're also increasing the overall ingredients and toxins associated with a vaccine over all.
This is a major reason why I do not plan to separate the MMR when we give it to DS in a few years.

[jimmysgirl424]

This is a major reason why I do not plan to separate the MMR when we give it to DS in a few years.

If you don't mind me asking, at what age are you planning on having him vaccinated with MMR? And did you have any issues with your pediatrician fighting you on it once you told him/her that you were waiting? I'm trying to prepare myself because my ped is a bit on the old school side and I don't want to be railroaded into vaccinating DD at 12 months.

[jessesgirl]

Hi Ladies. I wish I had seen this thread sooner. I'm seriously considering delaying or opting out of certain vaxes now for DD. What I'm curious about though, is we've already started some of these vaxes, so will we be causing more harm than good by suddenly deciding to wait on the f/u vaxes her ped wants to have in December?

[Kanga]

jessesgirl - There is no harm in not finishing a series alltogether* or stopping for now and starting at a later date. All of them, with the exception of rotateq (rotavirus vax) can be finished later. Depending on the age of your dc it may be a moot point anyways though.

*What I mean by no harm in not finishing is that there is no danger caused by the vaccine itself if all doses are not given. If you don't finish all of the doses, there is still a risk obvioulsy that your child could contract the disease. Dc's immunity as it stands is probably better than somebody who isn't vax'd at all, but probably not as good as somebody who has finished the entire series. Of course it can be debated until the end of time just exactly how effective the vaccines are.

[Sevilla]

Jimmysgirl - My pediatrician is fine with selective/delayed/no vaccinations (as well as full vaccination on schedule) so this isn't a concern. I feel fortunate that in my area there are quite a few peds/family practice dr.'s like this.

[PinkMartini]

Really quick question ladies...

My DS got his 12 month shots on October 29th (skipped the MMR) and had a low fever the day afterwards. Today he woke up with a huge knot on his left thigh (right where he got his shots) and a red mark the size of a nickel. I'm trying to figure out if it's a bug bite or a reaction from his shots, anyone know if you can get a reaction this late afterwards (or if he'd only get it on one side - as he got shots on both thighs)?

FWIW - this is the first time he's even had a reaction (fever) to any of his shots before.

[Kanga]

Pink - Dd1 had the same thing after her 4 month shots. She had it at only one injection site (3 injection sites total, I believe it was the DTaP one that reacted but can't be sure now) and her was also about the size of a nickel. I don't recall how long afterwards it showed up, but I do know that reactions according to the CDC can occur up to 6 weeks afterwards. FWIW, it took just shy of 2 months for it to go away.

[AmyE]

Pink - DS1 had the same thing happen for one of his shots. I think Kanga is right - I vaguely recall it was the DTap. I remember checking the handout the doc gave us and finding it on the "normal reactions" list, not on the "come back and see us " list. In our case the knot faded in a couple of days and the red mark in a week. For the MMR he had a red mark the size of a strawberry that lasted about 10 days, but it was also on the "normal reactions" list. (Although in that case the red mark showed up later - not the day after the vaccination.)

[kmack]

does anyone know about MMR shedding?

i think that since the MMR vax is a live virus it sheds...i am currently pregnant with #2 and DD#1 has not received the MMR vax yet. she is 27 mos old. i am wondering if there is any risk to me/baby if DD gets vax while i am still pregnant? what about if she doesn't get vax'd until after the baby is born, will there be a risk to #2? we may be moving to ireland in the next 2-6 mos. so i was thinking of getting her the MMR (or just the measles vax if dr. can do it) before we leave. thanks!

also, does anyone know how i would find out the vax requirements for another country? thanks!

[PinkMartini]

Pink - Dd1 had the same thing after her 4 month shots. She had it at only one injection site (3 injection sites total, I believe it was the DTaP one that reacted but can't be sure now) and her was also about the size of a nickel. I don't recall how long afterwards it showed up, but I do know that reactions according to the CDC can occur up to 6 weeks afterwards. FWIW, it took just shy of 2 months for it to go away.

Pink - DS1 had the same thing happen for one of his shots. I think Kanga is right - I vaguely recall it was the DTap. I remember checking the handout the doc gave us and finding it on the "normal reactions" list, not on the "come back and see us " list. In our case the knot faded in a couple of days and the red mark in a week. For the MMR he had a red mark the size of a strawberry that lasted about 10 days, but it was also on the "normal reactions" list. (Although in that case the red mark showed up later - not the day after the vaccination.)

Thanks you 2 :)

I was able to talk to a nurse at his ped's office and she said it's considered a 'reaction' up to 2 weeks afterwards... She told us to try & work the knot out so we've been massaging his leg a few times a day. Thankfully it doesn't seem to bother him. My DD's 2 week WBV is this week so I'll be sure to ask the ped to take a look at his leg when we go in....

[ellidew]

Repost from pro vax thread to try and get information on why i wouldn't want to have these vax done.

This Friday my ds has his 15 month well baby visit. The doctors office said he's scheduled to get Hib and prevnar. What should i know about these?

He's gotten both vaccines in the past. WHY are people not doing these particular vax?

[littlecindy]

Repost from pro vax thread to try and get information on why i wouldn't want to have these vax done.

This Friday my ds has his 15 month well baby visit. The doctors office said he's scheduled to get Hib and prevnar. What should i know about these?

He's gotten both vaccines in the past. WHY are people not doing these particular vax?

those ones i actually have gotten. we're skipping MMR and polio. MMR scares me the most. i found some info online from dr. sears about his opinion on all the vaccines. now i'm waiting for my library to get his new book: http://www.askdrsears.com/thevaccinebook/

[Sevilla]

Well, some reasons people forgo the Hib and Prevnar are b/c the risks of getting the disease vary depending on your risk factors - formula fed vs. breastfed greatly increases your risk, as does being in daycare vs. at home. If my DS had been formula fed and in daycare, I definitely would have gotten those shots.

The aluminum levels are another concern which are detailed in Dr. Sears' book with a breakdown and schedule to avoid overloading with too much at once.

Also, by the time he is 15 months old he is no longer in a high risk category for either disease, so that is another reason to consider forgoing it.

Really the reasons for getting or not getting a particular vaccine are dependent on your family and child's individual circumstances - which is why what is important for our family may not be what is important for yours.

[newmommy]

anyone have info on the rotovirus vaccine?

[Kanga]

Which one?

[jennylou]

anyone have info on the rotovirus vaccine?
It's still fairly new, in 2006 DD started the oral series. She was due for her third dose when the FDA came out with a warning about the vax.

[Sevilla]

anyone have info on the rotovirus vaccine?
It is a live virus, oral vaccine given at the 2 month, 4 month, and 6 month appointments. Because it is live virus there is a risk of catching the disease through the baby's stool where it is shed for a short period of time (this shedding has only been observed after the first dose and not the 2nd and 3rd doses) - this is usually manifest as having diahrrea and being sick for a few days (i know of a few parents who have caught it from changing their recently vaccinated infant's diapers). Rotavirus is highly contagious in any event - something like 96% of kids have been infected with it by age 5.

The vaccine must be started between 6-12 weeks of age - it is not licensed to be given to infants older than 8 months due to concerns of intersusseption that led to the first Rotavirus vaccine (Rotashield) being pulled from the market about 10 years ago.

You can read more about the vaccine here at the CDC.gov's Pink Book (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/pink-chapters.htm) - it is an excellent reference available online and i highly recommend reading it before giving any vaccinations).

The current vaccine, Rotateq, is made from both human and bovine strains of the virus so if you are uncomfortable with animal components (fetal bovine syrum) being given to your child that could be a reason not to do it.

[I've never researched the issue, but do Vegans do all vaccinations? B/c quite a few are made with animal components...hmmmm, i would be interested to know what they say].

The vaccine does not last longer than a few years - research has demonstrated that 3 doses lasts at least 2 seasons, though immunity is lower during the second season than the first. The overall efficacy rate for the vaccine is 74%, and it prevents severe rotavirus (the kind that would require hospitalization) at a rate of 96%. Though the severity of Rotavirus is for infants and younger toddlers, so presumably that is the time immunity is most important anyway and it wearing off after a few years doesn't really matter.

It is a vaccine that I would most likely give if my infant were formula fed, and would definitely give if my infant were in daycare. I chose not to give the Rotavirus vaccine to DS b/c it was very new when he was an infant and I am not comfortable giving new vaccines until they've been on the market for a few years (especially given what happened the first time around with Rotashield). But with our next baby I'll revisit the decision based on the available data and risk factors in our family.

Hope this helps!

[miaclear]

I just got an email from Amazon about a new Vaccine book being released....curious if anyone knows anything about this book, or the Dr. It's obviously going to be an anti-vax book based on this

At a time when the vaccine controversey is becoming increasingly hostile, this book offers an in-depth examination of how Saying No to Vaccines can save your and your childs life.

www.amazon.com/gp/product/0979091047/ref=pe_5050_8429590_pe_snp_047

[littlecindy]

I just got an email from Amazon about a new Vaccine book being released....curious if anyone knows anything about this book, or the Dr. It's obviously going to be an anti-vax book based on this



www.amazon.com/gp/product/0979091047/ref=pe_5050_8429590_pe_snp_047

i just got it at my library. i thought it was a fairly balanced take. he goes through each shot and explains what's in the shot, what the risks are, and then at the end gives his quick blurb about if he recommends it, why or why not. some may be surprised, but he recommends many or most of the vaccines out there today. he's definitely pro-vaccination from a public health standpoint. even things like chicken pox he said it'd be easier if everyone just got the vaccine and then we could stop vaccinating for it eventually.

[PinkMartini]

Got a quick question for you vaccine experts.

A new friend of mine has 6 DC and none of them are vaccinated (against anything). Both of my DC are totally vaccinated (with the exception of the MMR vaccine for my DS). Obviously I don't plan on having our DC play together while any of them are sick, but if someone is infact sick, is it safe to let my DC play with hers? Common sense tells me that since my DC are vaccinated they should be ok, but ????

[Marisa]

If your DC are vaccinated, then they have some solid protection against any illness that her DC might have. There is always the chance that any one vaccine might not be 100% effective for any one child, but in general this is why you got them vaccinated. It's not an absolute solution, but there would be no reason to keep them away from other children on the off chance that one of their shots wasn't as effective.

To be honest, there will always be times when your DC will be 'exposed' to other kids who have not had all their shots. My DS is catching up on his, since we delayed them for the first two years, but has not yet gotten the chicken pox one. Because I'm pregnant, and didn't want the miniscule risk of either him catching the pox (or exhibiting symptoms) or ME catching them, I just got a dr's note saying that he'd be vaccinated sometime after the baby's born. Therefore when he goes to preschool, he's mingling with other kids who may or may not have this vaccination -- and basically, if their parents have chosen to get the shot for them, then they should protected if Joey comes down with the pox somehow.

[PinkMartini]

Awesome! That's what I thought Marisa, but thanks for the reply ;)

[Kanga]

Pink - Ditto what Marisa said, Also when your dc receives live vaccines, you may want to give the mom a head's up because it's possible for her kids to catch the virus from your kids even if your kids aren't sick. As a non vaxer, I could really care less about this since IMO it seems a little paranoid to keep your dc from every kid who might be shedding live vax's but others like to know especially if they have small babies/newborns.

[PinkMartini]

Thanks for the reply Kanga!

DS is scheduled for his 18 month appt next month and I know he's due for some shots then, so I'll definitely let her know. She doesn't have any newborns but I'll let her know anyway :)

[littlecindy]

re: the dr. sears book...here's a great example of his i think fiarly balance opinion on the book's website where he talks about the recent news about there not being a link between autism & the vaccinations.

http://www.askdrsears.com/thevaccinebook/index.asp

[bensgirl1222]

Can someone who has "The Vaccine Book" by Dr. Sears post the recommended vaccine schedule for me? I am going to order the book but wanted to see the schedule and what he recommends. After DS's 6 month shots and that whole fiasco I'm def going to be spacing them out. I dont think his little body can take all that at once.

[littlecindy]

Can someone who has "The Vaccine Book" by Dr. Sears post the recommended vaccine schedule for me? I am going to order the book but wanted to see the schedule and what he recommends. After DS's 6 month shots and that whole fiasco I'm def going to be spacing them out. I dont think his little body can take all that at once.

i think i have it in the car ready to go back to the library. if it is, i'll grab it and pm you.

[merjmo]

Can someone who has "The Vaccine Book" by Dr. Sears post the recommended vaccine schedule for me? I am going to order the book but wanted to see the schedule and what he recommends. After DS's 6 month shots and that whole fiasco I'm def going to be spacing them out. I dont think his little body can take all that at once.

The only thing you may need to consider is that there's a "schedule" for some shots and if you've already had one or two of the boosters you may have to get the last ones in order and on time. But I'm not sure about specifics.

[Kanga]

The only thing you may need to consider is that there's a "schedule" for some shots and if you've already had one or two of the boosters you may have to get the last ones in order and on time. But I'm not sure about specifics.

For the vast majority of vaxes, this is not true. I think rotateq is the only one that HAS to be given in a certain time frame.

[bensgirl1222]

i think i have it in the car ready to go back to the library. if it is, i'll grab it and pm you.
Thank you!!

[littlecindy]

Thank you!!

i have it at work, i just remembered. will try to pm you tomorrow at work.

[Lisa]

i have it at work, i just remembered. will try to pm you tomorrow at work.

can you PM me it too please :)

[KiKi'sMommy]

Okay, am I nuts or can the MMR be broken up into separate shots to be given at completely different times. My Ped. told me they couldn't do that, which really irritated me. I told him I KNOW it can be done and he said try the health department. Whatever dude, I know you can order it that way if you want. Am I crazy??

[daphne]

Okay, am I nuts or can the MMR be broken up into separate shots to be given at completely different times. My Ped. told me they couldn't do that, which really irritated me. I told him I KNOW it can be done and he said try the health department. Whatever dude, I know you can order it that way if you want. Am I crazy??

I think part of the problem is that they come in batches of 10, I think. My ped writes a prescription for each shot for me to take to the pharmacy & they fill it. I've heard that there is a shortage of one or more of the components. Haven't researched it, though, to find out.

[Hula1974]

My ped said it couldn't be done either.

[Mickey&B]

subscribing.....

[KiKi'sMommy]

I think part of the problem is that they come in batches of 10, I think. My ped writes a prescription for each shot for me to take to the pharmacy & they fill it. I've heard that there is a shortage of one or more of the components. Haven't researched it, though, to find out.

So how much do you have to pay for the vaccine?

[bensgirl1222]

So if you want to have the shots separated you can either go to the health dept or have your dr fill the prescriptions and then they will give your DC the shots? Also, will insurance pay for the health dept if you decide to go there?

[daphne]

So how much do you have to pay for the vaccine?

In all honesty, I haven't gotten around to bringing the prescriptions to the pharmacy, so I'm not sure how it will work out for me financially. My neighbor did something similar - she had the components sent from that Hopewell Pharmacy in NJ to a pharmacy near us. It cost her about $150-$200. Her ped then administered the shots as she brought them in herself for her son...

[dana b]

anyone know what happened to this book? the link is no longer working.
I just got an email from Amazon about a new Vaccine book being released....curious if anyone knows anything about this book, or the Dr. It's obviously going to be an anti-vax book based on this

Quote:
At a time when the vaccine controversey is becoming increasingly hostile, this book offers an in-depth examination of how Saying No to Vaccines can save your and your childs life.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/097...590_pe_snp_047
__________________

[littlecindy]

anyone know what happened to this book? the link is no longer working.

was it the dr. sears book?

http://askdrsears.com/thevaccinebook/

[Marisa]

It looks like Saying No to Vaccines was pushed back to this month, maybe they're having printing delays or something.

http://www.nmaseminars.com/

There's a little box about halfway down that has the table of contents, but no further info.

[mcgwigan]

Bumping this up - looking for others that have chosen to space their shots. I read The Vaccine Book by Dr Sears & developed a schedule for spacing out shots. My DS is only 10 weeks old, but had HepB at 1 month with no adverse affect. Then we had DTaP only at 2 months and it made him quite sleepy and he vomitted 3 times. Now 2 weeks later we had HIB & PC yesterday and he was incrediblt fussy/whiney/clingy last night and better this morning, but still has some of the fussiness & whining. I'm dreading repeating these effects 2 or 3 times a month 2 more times.

Can anyone with an older DC that spaced their shots reassure me that the reactions won't necessarily be the same each time?

[cosmic]

New article from BusinessWeek.com on vaccines:
Vaccinations Good, Measles Bad. Got it? (http://www.businessweek.com/careers/workingparents/blog/)

[Sevilla]

New article from BusinessWeek.com on vaccines:
Vaccinations Good, Measles Bad. Got it? (http://www.businessweek.com/careers/workingparents/blog/)
That article had so many inaccuracies in it it's difficult to know where to start with addressing it. (And I say that as someone who vaccinates and believes vaccines are important!)

[Kanga]

Yes, that's right. None of us non vaxers vaccinate because we don't think we're going to get the disease. We are invincible and have no memory of how awful and scary these diseases are. Wonder if they'll say that with the next generation and CP. Nevermind a lot of us try to hunt most of these diseases down. If only Iowa was one of the states with measles outbreaks...

That's got to be about one of the worst written articles I've seen about anything in a long time.

[cosmic]

Hey, don't shoot the messenger...lol.
Just passing the article along since it was on Yahoo. It's a shame about these measles outbreaks, though. Should this be happening in 2008?

[Kanga]

Hey, don't shoot the messenger...lol.
Just passing the article along since it was on Yahoo. It's a shame about these measles outbreaks, though. Should this be happening in 2008?

Oh, not blaming you at all! I still like to read what's out there, even if it's crap.


Should they be happening? I wouldn't call measles a good thing, but more like the lesser of two evils. There will always be disease, unfortunately and as far as diseases go measles is pretty tame. There are dozens of diseases more dangerous that have no vaccine. IMO, it's better to catch measles young when it's least dangerous, get lifelong immunity, then never worry about it again than to vaccinate everybody and have the immunity wear off or never take to begin with. Also, generally when immunity does wear off, it's in the teens or early 20's and more dangerous then. Sure you can always get vaccinated again, but no one knows exactly when that vaccine will wear off. Then there's the safety aspect of it if you do get vaccinated again. And again, and again. So far, they say the amounts of chemicals and toxins in it are safe. But there have been no studies showing the lifelong effects on the current recommended schedule of vaccinating every 10 years because they're always adding more.

If we vaccinate so much against measles that we wipe it out, I have no doubt that something else will crop up in it's place. Much like antibiotics have done to bacterial diseases.

[kmack]

hi, could someone just confirm for me on the recommended vax schedule per the CDC website, it has DTaP, IPV, Hib, and PCV given at 2 months..i know DTap was a single shot but cant remember the others- i am looking at DD's records and it said she got them all, so was that 4 shots at once? i am totally drawing a blank! thanks....

[daphne]

hi, could someone just confirm for me on the recommended vax schedule per the CDC website, it has DTaP, IPV, Hib, and PCV given at 2 months..i know DTap was a single shot but cant remember the others- i am looking at DD's records and it said she got them all, so was that 4 shots at once? i am totally drawing a blank! thanks....

I see that you're in MA; We are, too, & got the pediarix, which is the DTaP & IPV together, along w/the HIB, Prevnar & rotavirus. Don't know if it was the same for you.

[kmack]

yes i used to be in boston...just moved though! i dont think the rotovirus vax was available when DD got her shots (2005). and i am just hearing about pediarix, is that new too? is prevnar the PCV vax? thanks!

[Sevilla]

The 2 month reccomended vaxes are as follows (8 diseases vaccinated for in one visit):
Rotavirus (oral drops)
Hib
Pcv (Prevnar)
Hep B
DTaP
Polio

Some of these can be given in combination vaxes such as Pediarix (DTaP, Polio (IPV), Hep B) and Comvax (Hep B and Hib).

(Hep B is the 2nd dose, the first given at birth, the second dose given between 1-2 months per the schedule here - http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/downloads/child/2008/08_0-6yrs_schedule_pr.pdf)

[kmack]

thanks...they are doing 8 at once now? :eek:

i just moved to ireland and my 8 week old is due for his shots. they only do a 5-in-1 here, DTap, Hib, and polio and i would really like to separate them. i asked my dr about it (DS will see my dr., only sees a ped. if there is a problem) and he said they can't be separated. they also give meningitis c at 2,4,and 6 mos. is there a vax in the US that covers this disease? b/c i dont want DD (who will be 3) getting it if she doesnt have to.

luckily being fully vax is not a reqmt to get into schools over here...i am thinking about delaying/opting out of some of these but i am a little nervous since i am in a new country (and i realize it is not a third world country but i know nothing about incidence of disease over here) and we may be travelling a lot so i am worried about the kids getting something on a flight. anyone have any thoughts on this?

[Kanga]

kmack - Does Ireland have something similar to the CDC and/or VAERS? Your ped/dr. should know if google doesn't bring anything up. If so, I think their website would probably be your best bet as a starting point for information. Also, a lot of dr.'s here say that it isn't possible to split the MMR even though that's not true. (I think some honestly don't know that you can) Maybe it could be the same for the 5 in 1 shot over there? I would keep asking around and be sure that's it absolutely cannot be split before giving it. Maybe MDC would have some people who either live or used to live in Ireland that might have some info for you on disease rates or where to go, etc?

[kmack]

thanks kanga i have no clue what their equivalent would be but i will research it. i just looked and the pamphlet that the GP gave me with the vax info was printed by the national disease surveillance center so i will start there.

and i did post on MDC but their ireland tribe has been dead for about 3 mos. so it doesnt look like anyone will be answering me any time soon! i also found an irish website sort of like constant chatter so i asked about it there too but havent heard back yet. i have the feeling that there isnt a lot of delaying of vax. over here though

[Sevilla]

Kmack - I looked around on Ireland's official immunisation site and their schedule is the same as the US as of summer 2008 (as Hep B and Prevnar are being added) - the only difference is the tuberculosis vaccine which isn't given here in the states and it says is given at birth. I don't know anything about that one.

Will you be going to another country anytime soon and could get separate vaccines there instead? That is probably the option I would consider.

ETA: Here is the ireland site for those interested: http://www.immunisation.ie/en/ChildhoodImmunisation/

[kmack]

thanks sevilla...but they also give the men-c vax which is confusing me now. i went on the CDC website for the US schedule and it says that it is only given for high risk individuals, after age 2 is that right?

schedule (http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/recs/schedules/downloads/child/2008/08_0-6yrs_schedule_pr.pdf)or would DD (who is almost 3)have been previously vax'd for it under something else? b/c i really don't want her to get it if is doubling up on something she already has in her system.

i have done a little research and found a place that gives the MMR separately!!

It's Your Choice (http://www.healthchoiceuk.co.uk/)...they have a location in dublin but i havent contacted them yet to find out if they will do the 5-in-1 separately.

i also found an information leaflet from the nat'l immunisation office and they said that it was okay to give the 5-in-1, men c, and MMR all at once - wow!!:eek: that sounds insane to me...

anyway off to do more research!

ETA: iforgot to mention in the same leaflet there is a question about whether or not the vaccines contain mercury...the answer is "none of the vaccines currently marketed in ireland contain thiomersal as an excipient. however, a number use it in the manufacturing process and declare it in sec.4.4 of the summaries of product characteristics. the ones that have been prepared this way are:fluviin, energix b, fluarix, pentavac, and tetravac..

so what does that mean?? they have 'trace' amounts? does anyone know if the ones in the US are prepared this way? if not i will have to search out some real mercury-free ones

[Sevilla]

There are a few vaccines given to kids that still contain 'trace amounts' of mercury (one of the DTaP's for sure, not certain about others, the flu shot still contains mercury too - more than just trace amounts depending on the brand you use).

Men C - I think that's the one given to college students here (right?) - that one is now being marketed for younger ages too and I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up on the vaccine schedule in a few years.

That is insane that the 5 in 1, MMR, and Men C are all given at the same visit - holy cow!!! I wouldn't give the MMR with any other shot personally since it is live virus and has such a high reaction rate. If possible, can you find out the brand name and manufacturer of the 5 in 1 vax? I can look it up in my Dr. Sears book then possibly and find out its aluminum content and any other potential issues/benefits.

[bensgirl1222]

My new ped said they have thermerasol in their Flu vaccines. Can someone enlighten me on that please? DS hasnt gotten one yet but he will have to at some point.

[Marisa]

Jessica -- most of the flu vaccines still use thimerasol as a preservative, but they do have a mercury free version available. If you want DS to get the shot, do it early enough in the season that the mercury-free version is still widely available. I know in NJ it will be required for school starting this fall, so I suppose I'm going to have to make an appt. with DS's ped for September.

[Sevilla]

My new ped said they have thermerasol in their Flu vaccines. Can someone enlighten me on that please? DS hasnt gotten one yet but he will have to at some point.
It depends on which flu vaccine you get - here is how it breaks down (according to Dr. Sears' Vaccine Book):

Fluarix - trace amounts of mercury (less than 1 mcg per dose)

Fluzone - 10 dose vial has 25mcg mercury per dose
Fluzone - Single dose vial or prefilled syringe (given in half doses to infants 6-35 months, and full dosage for children 36 months and older) is mercury-free
(it is very important to make sure you're getting the right type of vial as it makes a big difference with mercury)

FluLaval - contains 25mcg mercury per dose

Fluvirin - trace amounts of mercury

FluMist - (live virus nasal spray) no mercury

[Monty]

It depends on which flu vaccine you get - here is how it breaks down (according to Dr. Sears' Vaccine Book):

Fluarix - trace amounts of mercury (less than 1 mcg per dose)

Fluzone - 10 dose vial has 25mcg mercury per dose
Fluzone - Single dose vial or prefilled syringe (given in half doses to infants 6-35 months, and full dosage for children 36 months and older) is mercury-free
(it is very important to make sure you're getting the right type of vial as it makes a big difference with mercury)

FluLaval - contains 25mcg mercury per dose

Fluvirin - trace amounts of mercury

FluMist - (live virus nasal spray) no mercury

That's how I understand it as well, I think that it also switches from year to year...one year has mercury, one year doesn't (but this is for the adult version).....but like she posted above, you can get the mercury free for children.

Anyone know much about the court case against the gov't regarding mercury? I just heard bits and pieces of it yesterday......

[kmack]

That is insane that the 5 in 1, MMR, and Men C are all given at the same visit - holy cow!!! I wouldn't give the MMR with any other shot personally since it is live virus and has such a high reaction rate.
just the 5 in 1 and men c are given at once, but i was reading a document where a question asked if it was safe to give MMR as well....i personally would never get anything with MMR either! also MMR is on the schedule for 12 mos which i think is too early so i am sure we'll wait on that one.

If possible, can you find out the brand name and manufacturer of the 5 in 1 vax? I can look it up in my Dr. Sears book then possibly and find out its aluminum content and any other potential issues/benefits.
i finally found out, its Pentavak made by a french company called Sanofi Pasteur SA...let me know if there is anything in your book about it. i got the insert and it does say under special warnings and precautions for use, that it may contain undetectable traces of thiomersal

thanks for the help!

[Kanga]

kmack - I don't know if this is helpful or not for you, but I googled "pentavac sanofi pastuer" and came up with a bunch (whereas the same but pentavak instead brought nothing).

Was there any information in particular that you were looking for? I found this site (http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:EARl0MtalIUJ:www.lakemedelsverket.s e/upload/SPC_PIL/Pdf/enhumspc/Pentavac%2520powd%2520and%2520solv%2520f%2520susp% 2520f%2520inj%2520ENG.pdf+pentavac+Sanofi+Pasteur&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=7&gl=us). It seems to be credible, though I haven't fully checked it out yet.

Schedule

4
CLINICAL PARTICULARS
4.1 Therapeutic indications
Active immunisation against diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, poliomyelitis and invasive infections caused by Haemophilus influenzae type b (meningitis, septicaemia, cellulitis, arthritis, epiglottitis, ...)
- for primary vaccination in infants,
- for booster in children who have previously received a primary vaccination with this vaccine or a diphtheria-tetanus-whole-cell or acellular pertussis-poliomyelitis vaccine, whether mixed or not with freeze-dried conjugate Haemophilus influenzae type b vaccine.

4.2 Posology and method of administration
Primary vaccination:
Primary immunisation can be given as 3 doses at an interval of 1-2 months starting at the age of 2 or 3 months, or 2 doses at an interval of 2 months starting at the age of 3 months and a third dose at the age of 12 months.

Booster:
A fourth dose should be administered within the second year of life in children who received PENTAVACâ„¢ (or a diphtheria-tetanus-whole-cell or acellular pertussis-poliomyelitis vaccine, whether mixed or not with the freeze-dried conjugate Haemophilus influenzae type b vaccine) as a three-dose primary series between the ages of 2-6 months.

If you click that link and scroll down some, it also lists possible adverse events and their likeliness based on clinical trials.

[curlywig]

Can anyone point me to the source for info re an FDA warning regaring vax for rotovirus? I just read a reference to it in another thread and am curious.

TIA! (I searched back a few pages of this thread but didn't see any mention)

[Kanga]

curly - Here (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/63074.php) is a link about the FDA warning on Rotashield. It has since been pulled from the market and there is a new one now called RotaTeq. While there have been 28 reports of intussusception with RotaTeq too thus far, it remains on the market.

[merjmo]

While there have been 28 reports of intussusception with RotaTeq too thus far, it remains on the market.

In clinical trials, 13 infants given RotaTeq developed intussusception. 15 infants who received the placebo (each group had 36,000 children) developed it. The vaccine remains on the market because the expected number of yearly cases of intussusception (before the vaccine was used) was 18 to 43. Additionally, some of the 28 cases were reported as long as 2 months after the vaccine, so it's difficult to quantify how many were actually caused by the vaccine.