Heathrow Closed to Incoming Flights

[Smittenk]

Police say foil plot to bomb aircraft Thursday August 10, 09:29 AM

LONDON (Reuters) - Police thwarted on Thursday what they said was a plot to blow up several aircraft in mid-flight between Britain and the United States and arrested more than 15 people.

Both countries stepped up security, causing severe delays at airports following the revelation of the plot, which a police source said was believed to involve a "liquid chemical" device.

"The police acting with the security service MI5 are investigating an alleged plot to bring down a number of aircraft through mid-flight explosions, causing a considerable loss of life," Home Secretary John Reid said.
The U.S. Department of Homeland Security raised the threat level for all commercial aircraft to high and U.S. authorities banned liquids, including drinks, from all U.S. commercial flights.

Security services raised the threat level in the country to "critical" from "severe", the highest of its five ratings which means "an attack is expected imminently".

The British Airports Authority said it had asked all European carriers to suspend flights to Heathrow where new security measures caused severe delays.

The news came amid high international tension over the war in Lebanon and the week Prime Minister Tony Blair headed on holiday to the Caribbean.

London police said they believed the intention was to target flights from Britain to the United States.

Shares in European airlines fell on the news, with British Airways shares opening nearly 5 percent lower. The pound also fell against the dollar and the euro.

Blair's office said the prime minister had briefed U.S. President George W. Bush on the operation during the night and had been in constant contact with Britain over the situation.

SEVERE THREAT

Reid said it was a "very significant plot".

"We are doing everything possible to disrupt any further terrorist activity," he said in a statement. "This will mean major disruption at all UK airports."

Air passengers found they could take little on board.

"We cannot take on anything except wallets, passports and medicine," Dana Cojocaru-Ivoska, 28, trying to get on a flight to return to her home in St. Louis, Missouri.

The security alert comes 13 months after four British Islamist suicide bombers killed 52 people and injured about 700 on London's transport network.

In a speech on Wednesday, Reid said Britain was in the most sustained period of severe threat since the end of World War Two and warned there was no room for complacency.

A police source said more than 15 people had been arrested.

"We don't think that it was planned to happen today," the source told Reuters. "We had intelligence and we had to move against what was a planned attack.

"The plan was to take a ready-made explosive device rather than something which would be made up on board," the source said.

Independent terrorism expert Paul Beaver said hand luggage was a weak spot in airport security.

"A laptop computer can carry enough explosives to blow up an aircraft," he said. "Hold baggage and cargo can be sniffed for explosives. You can't do that for hand luggage at the moment. The technology is there, but it's time consuming and expensive."

Beaver said the nature of the alleged plot suggested a connection to al Qaeda.

"In the last two months al Qaeda promised that it would avenge Iraq and Afghanistan by attacking British and American aviation assets -- I see a direct link with that," he said.

Britain has come under fire from Islamist militants for its military campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Blair has also come under strong criticism at home and abroad for following the U.S. lead and refusing to call for an immediate ceasefire in the conflict between Israel and Lebanese Hizbollah guerrillas.

British Airways said no hand baggage would be allowed on any of its planes leaving British airports. It said no electrical or battery powered items would be allowed in the cabin, including laptops and mobile phones.

British Airports Authority said all passengers on flights to the United States would be subject to a secondary search at the boarding gate and all liquids would also be removed.

The Home Office Web Site showed the threat rating had been raised to "critical" from "severe" earlier on Thursday. Britain has a five level rating for security threats, ranging from low to critical, which is the highest level.

[Smittenk]

Heathrow closed to incoming flights Thursday August 10, 09:29 AM


Heathrow was closed to incoming flights in the wake of the anti-terror operation.

Airport operator BAA asked that all flights still on the ground should not take off for the west London airport.

National Air Traffic Services (Nats), which runs air traffic control, said that flights already heading for Heathrow would be allowed to land.

A Nats spokesman said: "BAA has asked that no flights due to come to Heathrow be dispatched."

He added that some flights were able to leave Heathrow and were being handled by Nats in the normal way.

The move came as several airlines suspended services to the UK because of the major disruption caused by tightened security measures.

It is thought that with massive queues building up at terminals all over the UK, other airports might have to suspend incoming services.

A number of foreign carriers have announced that they were suspending flights to London.

These included German carrier Lufthansa, Spanish airline Iberia and Greek carrier Olympic

[Smittenk]

This is just in time for my flight scheduled next week from NYC to Heathrow. I'm terrified of flying and have to be well drugged to get on board so this is just GREAT!!!!!!!:( :( :(

[sea74]

Smittenk: I hope you have a safe, uneventful flight next week!

And thank God this plan was uncovered before it was another 9/11!

[keska]

It seems to me from what I've read that they are more concerned about flights coming to the U.S. from the UK and any U.S. commercial flights, at least that's what CNN is reporting. They listed the usual targets: NY, DC and CA. I'm flying within CA on Monday. I'm not especially worried. For me, there's not a lot of use worrying over something that is out of my control.

[kam]

This is usually the safest time to fly, smittenk. Safe travels!

[diam124]

My DH was supposed to be flying from Amsterdam to DC connecting at Heathrow today but obviously the flight to Heathrow was cancelled so he's flying direct from Amsterdam to DC tomorrow. I agree that this is probably the safest time to fly.

[allyray231]

Fun. I love living in NYC. Glad I don't fly

[looty]

I was wondering about you Ali. I hope that everything goes fine for you and you enjoy your trip. I agree with the other ladies that now is the safest time to fly.

[Smittenk]

Thanks ladies...yeah everyone has been saying that but I honestly don;t think I will be able to feel 100% until we are back safe on the ground in the UK.

[miel]

I'm sorry if you guys are afraid about flying from UK to the U.S.

We're flying cross country on Saturday AM.

My parents are returning from Europe in a few days. I don't know whether they are flying through Heathrow. I emailed them to find out.

It surprises me there is not more discussion of this on the internet--or on this board. But I don't want to bum anyone out with my sense of foreboding. I guess I'm just glad they caught these ones now.

[ejs]

I guess I'm not talking about it more because I don't know what to say. I'm glad they caught these people. I'm happy with the security measures that are being taken, even though I carry many of the now-banned items on-board with me. But I understand that these changes have to be taking place now.

I'm a worrier by nature, but I don't know what worrying about this would accomplish for me. If a terrorist chooses to harm a plane I'm on, I have no control over that.

[wendalah]

I'm surprised there isn't more discussion either. I'm extremely irritated. I'm getting to the point where I don't care if I have to fly naked, I just want to thwart these pricks in their tracks.

[Smittenk]

It surprises me there is not more discussion of this on the internet--or on this board.

Is it all over the papers/news etc in the US yet? It is all over the place here since this is where the arrests happened....21 arrests so far I think (YEY!!..Get 'em!). I am terrified which is strange cuz I normally don't let this overtake me so much but I was in tears wanting to cancel our trip today. I think it is just because the whole flying thing stresses me out so much to begin with and now to think about blowing up midair...:( Thankfully we are only flying one way...and thankfully I will be allowed to carry on my anti anxiety medication. I cannot fly without it.

[wendalah]

Is it all over the papers/news etc in the US yet?

Totally, and Bush gave a quick address this morning on it too. Our airports are a nightmare right now.

[laura]

I'm w/ ejs - I don't know what to say about it.

[PG-rated]

I'm flying tomorrow morning, and not really concerned (although I am annoyed that I can't take my shampoo or moisturizer with me, but obviously I understand). I agree with ejs - there's really nothing I can do, either way. Living and working in DC, I'm pretty used to this type of stuff at this point. I was late to work yesterday because Metro had to divert trains away from several stations due to a suspicious package in the area, and they closed down the front of Union Station today for another suspicious package. And that's just this week. There have been at least two bomb scares I can remember across the street from my office, and an anthrax scare in my office building.

I'm not sure why people think it's not being discussed - it's certainly being discussed a lot among people I know, and the Washington Post had two online discussions about it today (besides their regular articles).

[diam124]

I'm not sure why there's not more discussion either. I was annoyed all day that everyone at work was very upbeat and extra chatty with no mention of this. But, that's probably because I'm concerned about DH flying back from Europe tomorrow. Still, I think this is a really big deal. I think 9/11 has been on a lot of people's minds lately with the anniversary approaching and the movie out. This just really sends me back to the days afterwards when we didn't know if there was going to be another attack. Thank God they uncovered this.

[vjel]

I live in the DC area (close to Dulles airport) too and am feeling anxious to be honest. I am not flying anywhere and don't have plans to fly anywhere in the near (or distant) future but I'm just a bit freaked that something of this magnitude was in the works. Glad the plan was thwarted for now but is it just a matter of time before they succeed?

[jnettie]

The subways and Penn Station were crawling with cops and National Guard here.

It makes me very uneasy. I don't know what to think. And I don't know what banning suntan lotion is going to do except piss people off. And there is no way to control that stuff here in the subways like I hear they're doing in the London Tube.

[ejs]

I live in the DC area (close to Dulles airport) too and am feeling anxious to be honest. I am not flying anywhere and don't have plans to fly anywhere in the near (or distant) future but I'm just a bit freaked that something of this magnitude was in the works. Glad the plan was thwarted for now but is it just a matter of time before they succeed?
But don't you think that many plans like this have been thwarted, but we just haven't heard about them all? I'm sure there have been many.


The subways and Penn Station were crawling with cops and National Guard here.

It makes me very uneasy. I don't know what to think. And I don't know what banning suntan lotion is going to do except piss people off. And there is no way to control that stuff here in the subways like I hear they're doing in the London Tube.
Banning suntan lotion is trying to prevent the current weapon of choice from getting on planes. I have absolutely no problem with that.

[kris97]

These arrests just make me so thankful for the hard work that law enforcement, here and abroad, are working around the clock to infiltrate the terror cells. Whatever you think of the administration, every single one of us owes a debt of gratitude to the FBI and affiliated organizations for preventing major attacks since September 11th. Believe me, plots have been filed. That we are still sitting here is due to law enforcement's extraordinary efforts, not because those f'ers have stopped trying to kill us.

[Foley42]

I'm getting to the point where I don't care if I have to fly naked, I just want to thwart these pricks in their tracks.
ITA!

I just don't understand why people want to cause so much pain and suffering to others. It's just sick! :mad:

[bookworm]

I flew today. It was pretty tedious....2.5 hours in the security line, having to check a bag (b/c I wasn't willing to throw out the $35 foundation and my contact lenses), a variety of confused people, etc. All told, it took all day (just got home, so 14 hours) for a 4 hour flight. Plenty of that was paranoia time (went to the airport v. early, didn't clear as standby for an earlier flight).

Honestly, I'm not anxious to fly again. I'm not at all scared/worried, but today it felt like way more hassle than it was worth. But if I have to fly next week (so far, I think that trip is cancelled), I'll do it. Not sure what to do about my contacts, though...

[am_81]

I'm actually flying through Gatwick next week . . . . but not feeling very anxious at all. FH (who is going on the trip as well) and I discussed it for a while yesterday and I think that both of us are feeling pretty confident about flying safely next week. Since it is a company paid trip, we have the option of re-routing and flying through Frankfurt or Charles DeGaulle instead, but we've decided against it. I've flown so much over the last 3.5 years, that it takes a lot to make me nervous or consider cancelling a trip. Call me naive, but I have a lot of traveling coming up over the next 3 months and havent even thought about cutting back.

[thedoorchick]

I think that's a very sensible attitude to have. One thing these &^%'s are trying to do is make us all scared to leave our houses. Screw 'em, I say, and get on a plane!

[vjel]

But don't you think that many plans like this have been thwarted, but we just haven't heard about them all? I'm sure there have been many.


most definitely. I guess just hearing about it and hearing what was planned makes it more REAL to *me*. Plus its bringing back all the feelings of anxiety from 9/11. Whenever I'm home or driving near home and see planes taking off or landing I still watch them to see if they make it safely. :(

[diam124]

But don't you think that many plans like this have been thwarted, but we just haven't heard about them all? I'm sure there have been many.

I definitely think smaller plans have been disrupted, but I think this is probably the biggest and the closest to actually happening.


These arrests just make me so thankful for the hard work that law enforcement, here and abroad, are working around the clock to infiltrate the terror cells. Whatever you think of the administration, every single one of us owes a debt of gratitude to the FBI and affiliated organizations for preventing major attacks since September 11th. Believe me, plots have been filed. That we are still sitting here is due to law enforcement's extraordinary efforts, not because those f'ers have stopped trying to kill us.


ITA - I do wonder though if the plot would have been disrupted if it had been planned in the US instead of the UK. Regardless, we owe a lot to law inforcement who have kept all of us relatively safe.

I have a feeling that this is going to have a greater impact on airline travel (regulations, security requirements, etc.) than 9/11 did. It just seems to me like it's going to change the way we travel quite a bit.

Then again, I flew out of DC 3 days after 9/11 and there were a lot more restrictions then that since stopped (security examining checked baggage, checking ids at the gate).

[KGif]

Originally Posted by wendalah
I'm getting to the point where I don't care if I have to fly naked, I just want to thwart these pricks in their tracks.

Tell it! I totally agree with you.

I heard a lady on the radio yesterday serioulsy WHINING b/c she was about to get on a plane to China and couldn't believe the "rediculous restrictions imposed". She said now she could not bring her toothpaste and would not be able to brush her teeth the ENTIRE flight!!!!

Boo.freking.HOO. Cry me a river. Seriously if tht is your greatest problem in life then I envy you. Consider yourself lucky to even be blessed enough to be able to travel via air (any idea how many people in this world only dream of such a thing?) and move on! And be happy that there are people out there who make it their job to try to make you as safe as possible. Lordy.

[katmg]

I was surprised there wasn't more discussion about this yesterday as well. Although, I found I didn't know what to say about it once I did get online.

I just don't understand the hatred that is necessary to do these kinds of things.

[wine_o_girlie]

We are flying internationally tomorrow (Caribbean) and I'm sure it's going to suck but obviously we are feeling lucky for the opportunity to even take the trip. It's just so sad that so many people want to wreck havoc and death on us and honestly I am so angry with the current Administration and all that they have done to increase the hatred for America across the globe. :mad:

[thedoorchick]

Don't even think about blaming the current administration for the actions of these lunatics. These aren't people to be reasoned with, or whose thoughts we can ever understand. And they damned sure didn't just start plotting this stuff in January 2001.

[diam124]

Don't even think about blaming the current administration for the actions of these lunatics. These aren't people to be reasoned with, or whose thoughts we can ever understand. And they damned sure didn't just start plotting this stuff in January 2001.

ITA. Hatred for Americans is nothing new. 20 years ago I lived overseas and we had frequent bomb threats against our American school.

[Kate&Joey]

Don't even think about blaming the current administration for the actions of these lunatics. These aren't people to be reasoned with, or whose thoughts we can ever understand. And they damned sure didn't just start plotting this stuff in January 2001.

Amen! I'm so glad to hear someone else say this!!!

Iranian hostage crisis
Hijacking/crash of Pan AM Flight 103
Marine barracks bombing in Beirut
Hijacking of the Achille Lauro
Bombing of the USS Cole
1993 bombing of the World Trade Center
Bombings of US embassies in Africa
etc.

All happening way before the current administration was in office.

[wine_o_girlie]

Don't even think about blaming the current administration for the actions of these lunatics. These aren't people to be reasoned with, or whose thoughts we can ever understand. And they damned sure didn't just start plotting this stuff in January 2001.

It's MY opinion and never did it I say it was all the current Administration's fault. Of course there have always been people who disliked the US - no one is disputing that. It is a FACT that world opinion of the U.S. is different than it was even 5 or 6 years ago. It's no one person's "fault" but my OPINION is that there are many people to blame and that the current Administration is one of the people that *I* blame. Do not tell me that I cannot have an opinion, thank you very much.

With that, I am off to pack for my lovely, relaxing Caribbean vacation, see y'all in a week or so. :)

[Tanya]

ITA. Hatred for Americans is nothing new. 20 years ago I lived overseas and we had frequent bomb threats against our American school.

Yup. In '80's, the height of hijacking scares, my mother always lectured me before an overseas flight to shut my mouth (lest I sound like an American) and only show my NZ passport if we ever got hijacked. Remember those times? It's not new.

[allyray231]

True-this is nothing new. HOWEVER I think it does help their "cause"

[diam124]

True-this is nothing new. HOWEVER I think it does help their "cause"

Politically speaking I think we're damned if we do, damned if we don't. If a democrat were elected president tomorrow, I don't think anything would change in terms of terrorists and their plots. They are hellbent on destroying the US. If the war in Iraq had been regarded as a huge success (ie - weapons found, destroyed, minimal casualties, etc. etc.) they would use that as ammunition against us (US is too powerful for it's own good, etc.). There's just no reasoning with these people.

[jnettie]

Banning suntan lotion is trying to prevent the current weapon of choice from getting on planes. I have absolutely no problem with that.
But what's next? People are just going to think of some other way to get stuff on a plane. There's a million different household items that can make a bomb that can be disguised as any number of things. Banning all items on a plane won't work. Right now, medicines and baby bottles are ok. So, next time they'll use baby bottles. They'll have decoys. Then no baby bottles.

We are flying internationally tomorrow (Caribbean) and I'm sure it's going to suck but obviously we are feeling lucky for the opportunity to even take the trip. It's just so sad that so many people want to wreck havoc and death on us and honestly I am so angry with the current Administration and all that they have done to increase the hatred for America across the globe. :mad:

Don't even think about blaming the current administration for the actions of these lunatics. These aren't people to be reasoned with, or whose thoughts we can ever understand. And they damned sure didn't just start plotting this stuff in January 2001.

Why not? Our foreign policy is a direct reason WHY we're a target. We're blamed for the problems in their home countries. These people are often horribly poor and we're seen as a powerful country that could help them but don't. We are also blamed for our support of Israel and their conflict with Palesinians and now Lebanon.

But it's not JUST the current admin, you're right, this has been going on since WWII, or is a direct result of our involvement in the Mid East post WWII.

And it's not just us, but it's also the governments back in the countries where these people are from. They are so rich while their people are incredibly poor. Then, a group like Hezbolah, or Al Queda offers help, money, medicines, where their own government failed them, and the rich US doesn't do anything...if you just plant this bomb or blow yourself up, your family can have food.

It's a toatal failure of everything that has much to do with our foreign policy.

[kris97]

But what's next? People are just going to think of some other way to get stuff on a plane. There's a million different household items that can make a bomb that can be disguised as any number of things. Banning all items on a plane won't work. Right now, medicines and baby bottles are ok. So, next time they'll use baby bottles. They'll have decoys. Then no baby bottles.


You're right, the terrorists are always going to be one step ahead. But what are we supposed to do, stop trying? The steps that are being taken right now are entirely appropriate and justifiable. TSA is doing the best it can under incredibly difficult circumstances to balance necessity of bringing certain items on a plane (like medicine or formula) vs. preserving the safety of not only those on the plane but on the ground. That the measures will not entirely eliminate the risk is not a reason to forego the measures in the first place.

As to who to blame, I'll reiterate what I feel like I post everytime this game starts. Pointing fingers accomplishes nothing. We need to take a hard look at our foreign policy, intelligence, and law enforcement, but quibbling over whether it's more George Bush's or Bill Clinton's fault is just a waste of time.

[diam124]

It's a toatal failure of everything that has much to do with our foreign policy.

Obviously foreign policy is part of the reason they hate us, but I think it goes way beyond that. They hate our secular society, capitalism, freedom of religion - pretty much everything about us. I think they use our foriegn policy as an excuse and try to garner support because of it.

[ejs]

But what's next? People are just going to think of some other way to get stuff on a plane. There's a million different household items that can make a bomb that can be disguised as any number of things. Banning all items on a plane won't work. Right now, medicines and baby bottles are ok. So, next time they'll use baby bottles. They'll have decoys. Then no baby bottles.

So what are you saying? We shouldn't have any security precautions at all because terrorists will just manage to find a way around the ones we have?

Why not? Our foreign policy is a direct reason WHY we're a target. We're blamed for the problems in their home countries. These people are often horribly poor and we're seen as a powerful country that could help them but don't. We are also blamed for our support of Israel and their conflict with Palesinians and now Lebanon.

But it's not JUST the current admin, you're right, this has been going on since WWII, or is a direct result of our involvement in the Mid East post WWII.

And it's not just us, but it's also the governments back in the countries where these people are from. They are so rich while their people are incredibly poor. Then, a group like Hezbolah, or Al Queda offers help, money, medicines, where their own government failed them, and the rich US doesn't do anything...if you just plant this bomb or blow yourself up, your family can have food.

It's a toatal failure of everything that has much to do with our foreign policy.

Are you blaming our current foreign policy or not? And you really think this only has to do with government? You don't think it has anything to do with religion?

[laura]

But what's next? People are just going to think of some other way to get stuff on a plane. There's a million different household items that can make a bomb that can be disguised as any number of things. Banning all items on a plane won't work. Right now, medicines and baby bottles are ok. So, next time they'll use baby bottles. They'll have decoys. Then no baby bottles.

I hate to point out the blatantly obvious, but air travel is a convenience, it's not a right. If they need to throw away my chapstick to make it safe, then that would be annoying to me personally b/c I do love chapstick, but I'm all for protecting the greater good. If something gets banned that makes a person unable to fly, then that is unfortunate for them, but I will be honest and say that I am not willing to sacrifice my safety so that someone else can bring their toothpaste on board the plane with them.

[Rico'sAlice]

Obviously foreign policy is part of the reason they hate us, but I think it goes way beyond that. They hate our secular society, capitalism, freedom of religion - pretty much everything about us. I think they use our foreign policy as an excuse and try to garner support because of it.

Do you have any particular evidence, (quotes from terrorists, polls, etc.) that leads you to believe this? (Outside of it being constantly repeated by administration, media, etc.) I'd be interested in seeing it.

Most of the quotes/polls* I've found point to them (terrorists) considering their actions to be retaliatory (even if it is not directly x in return for b and may be a more general America oppresses Muslims sort of thing), and this was demonstrated in al Queda's relationship with Russia, ie (overly simply put) stopped attacking after Russia got out of Afghanistan. But I am totally open to seeing evidence to the contrary.


*Just 2 quick examples if anyway is genuinely interested I can give them links to dozens more:
A June, 2004 Zogby International survey of men and women in Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Morocco and the United Arab Emirates produced results such as the following, reported the Washington Post:

Those polled said their opinions were shaped by U.S. policies, rather than by values or culture. When asked: 'What is the first thought when you hear "America?" respondents overwhelmingly said: 'Unfair foreign policy.' And when asked what the United States could do to improve its image in the Arab world, the most frequently provided answers were 'Stop supporting Israel' and 'Change your Middle East policy'. ... Most Arabs polled said they believe that the Iraq war has caused more terrorism and brought about less democracy, and that the Iraqi people are far worse off today than they were while living under Hussein's rule. The majority also said they believe the United States invaded Iraq for oil, to protect Israel and to weaken the Muslim world.{24}
Reference from Washington Post, July 23, 2004, found in this article
http://members.aol.com/superogue/terintro.htm

And from the January 9, 1998 New York Times article quoting Ramzi Ahmed Yousef testifying in the '93 WTC bombing trial.
You keep [saying] collective punishment and killing innocent people to force governments to change their policies [is wrong and] you call this terrorism …. You … introduced this type of terrorism to the history of mankind when you dropped an atomic bomb which killed tens of thousands of women and children in Japan and when you killed over a hundred thousand people, most of them civilians, in Tokyo with fire bombings. You killed them by burning them to death. And you killed civilians in Vietnam with chemicals as with the so-called Orange agent…. You went to wars more than any other country in this century, and then you have the nerve to talk about killing innocent people. And now you have invented new ways to kill innocent people. You have so-called economic embargo [against Iraq] which kills nobody other than children and elderly people ….
Yes, I am a terrorist and I am proud of it. And I support terrorism so long as it [is] against the United States Government and against Israel, because you are more than terrorists…. You are butchers, liars and hypocrites.

[ejs]

I don't understand the finger-pointing. These terrorists are fanatics. They are irrational.

Do you really think that we could change our foreign policy or method of capitalism to something that would cause them to like us? No. Their fanatacism has been going on for generations. We are not like them so they hate us.

[bookworm]

I am not willing to sacrifice my safety so that someone else can bring their toothpaste on board the plane with them.

Eh, I might be. Of course saying toothpaste is more important than safety is ridiculous, but there is some risk equation and I'm not sure banning bottled water (or toothpaste, or contact solution) contributes enough to reduce that risk. Someone else thinks so, though, and they are the ones making the decisions, so I'll follow the rules.

I'll give it a few months and see what happens; I'm sure yesterday was abnormally bad, but if that continues I'm pretty sure I won't be doing a lot of pleasure travel (work travel is work; that doesn't have to be pleasant).

[miel]

quibbling over whether it's more George Bush's or Bill Clinton's fault is just a waste of time

I think we have to say something, though. I think our foreign policy is a disaster. I would think that whether there are terrorist threats or not--but obviously, terrorist threats are so related to U.S. policy. So my goal is not to quibble but to directly speak out in opposition to the current war, the current threat of war against Iran, and any other governmental action that is both immoral and presents a future threat to my children and grandchildren.

Our current policies kill innocent people in other countries but do not increase our--or anyone's--security. Even if they did increase security, they'd still be wrong and we should still oppose them. But the fact they are counterproductive means there is literally no argument in favor of them that makes sense. I think people who are opposed to this need to say to everyone else--is this really the world you want to live in?

Yes, there have been terrorist threats against the U.S. but they are always fundamentally connected to U.S. foreign policy in the world. Our foreign policy pre-9/11 had many problems. It's an outrage now.

In other words, I agree with jnettie. On the other hand, I admit that it is probably impossible to create a foreign policy that would leave such a powerful country as the U.S. free from threats and from tremendous resentment based on its historical record primarily, plus its economic power and influence, etc. It's not that there is an easy answer, but when the U.S. overreacts in the way it has in the last few years, it plays right into the hands of terrorists. There is nothing better for the terrorists than for the U.S. to attack Muslim countries. It only increases their influence and the weight of their message.

We talk about 'them' but 'they' turn out to be different people at different times. Assimilated British citizens are becoming terrorists. They weren't before. There is no signficant history of European-born muslims joining with Islamic terrorists before the war in Iraq! That's a major change. "They" are not all the same.

By the way, my plane cross country leaves tomorrow at 6 a.m. So I'll be at the airport at 3 AM with a toddler.

[laura]

Eh, I might be. Of course saying toothpaste is more important than safety is ridiculous, but there is some risk equation and I'm not sure banning bottled water (or toothpaste, or contact solution) contributes enough to reduce that risk. Someone else thinks so, though, and they are the ones making the decisions, so I'll follow the rules.

I'll give it a few months and see what happens; I'm sure yesterday was abnormally bad, but if that continues I'm pretty sure I won't be doing a lot of pleasure travel (work travel is work; that doesn't have to be pleasant).

But that's my whole point. Pleasure travel is pleasure travel. If people don't like the restrictions, they don't have to do it. I agree it's not extremely convenient, but those are the rules imposed by those "in charge" so I will follow them if I want to get on a plane. I may not like the rules, but I don't like a lot of things that I don't have the ability to change - like lots of other people's attitudes. :p

[kris97]

See, here's the thing - I don't disagree with what many of you are saying. I hate what's going on in Iraq; I vehemently disagree with much of our foreign policy these last few years.; I've no love lost for the administration. What bothers me is how each time something terrible happens -- be it Katrina, these thwarted attacks, whatever -- like clockwork, each side uses it as ammunition to buttress their agendas. It happens just as much on the right as the left -- last night, after the WHite House knew about the take down, Cheney gives an interview saying how the Lamont victory over Lieberman is "sending a message to the terrorists." And then today, lefties and righties all over the place seize on the attacks as support for their platform (righties: "See, we told you, these people are BAD! The war on terror, and the war in Iraq is justified!"; lefties: "See, we told you, the administration is BAD! The war on terror and the war in Iraq are unjustified, and making the terrorists hate us more"). Maybe it's inevitable, maybe there's a grain of legitimate discourse buried within the rhetoric, but for the most part, this raging moderate finds herself unable to listen to either side because it all turns into fodder. Is it possible to have a reasoned discussion about how to confront the obvious threat out there without having it descend into such partisan fingerpointing?

(If this sounds intemperate, I apologize; it's not directed at anyone here, just a general frustration with the entire world of politics these last ten years.)

[diam124]

Do you have any particular evidence, (quotes from terrorists, polls, etc.) that leads you to believe this? (Outside of it being constantly repeated by administration, media, etc.) I'd be interested in seeing it.


To be honest, I'm not quite sure where to look for direct quotes from terrorists if you only want primary sources.

[diam124]

Do you have any particular evidence, (quotes from terrorists, polls, etc.) that leads you to believe this? (Outside of it being constantly repeated by administration, media, etc.) I'd be interested in seeing it.


To be honest, I'm not quite sure where to look for direct quotes from terrorists if you only want primary sources.

And, to be fair in regards to the polls you posted, I don't consider most Arabs to be terrorists.

[thelittlebabu]

Do you have any particular evidence, (quotes from terrorists, polls, etc.) that leads you to believe this? (Outside of it being constantly repeated by administration, media, etc.) I'd be interested in seeing it.

Most of the quotes/polls* I've found point to them (terrorists) considering their actions to be retaliatory (even if it is not directly x in return for b and may be a more general America oppresses Muslims sort of thing), and this was demonstrated in al Queda's relationship with Russia, ie (overly simply put) stopped attacking after Russia got out of Afghanistan. But I am totally open to seeing evidence to the contrary.

Bin Laden - Without the Filters (http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/bin-laden-without-the-filters/2005/11/17/1132016927094.html?oneclick=true)

Included in Bin Laden's writings referenced in the link above were terms of USA's surrender to radical Islam and it went well beyond foreign policy. Knowing that the USA wasn't about to submit to Sharia Law, he toned it down a bit in his 2002 "Letter to America" which focused on our foreign policy instead.

We could change our foreign policy...no aid to Israel, no bases in the middle east, etc...but the only thing it will do is buy us time, not peace.

[amorey]

Eh, I might be. Of course saying toothpaste is more important than safety is ridiculous, but there is some risk equation and I'm not sure banning bottled water (or toothpaste, or contact solution) contributes enough to reduce that risk. Someone else thinks so, though, and they are the ones making the decisions, so I'll follow the rules.

I think I agree with this. Not that everyone needs toothpaste and bottled water on an airplane, but it seems like a slippery slope. It’s the whole freedom vs. safety thing, maybe like the patriot act? I know there’s some writer out there who put it much more eloquently than I am.

[ejs]

Does anyone really think that the terrorists are going to say, "We hate America because it's not a Muslim country"? If they say that, how many Americans are going to speak up about our government and agree with the terrorists? I think very few.

The terrorists are manipulative people. Of course they're going to say that they are fighting against our foreign policy. By saying that, they will actually get Americans who agree with them and are against our foreign policy. Those Americans probably don't agree with the methods the terrorists are using, but, in a way, they agree with the message that the US foreign policy needs to change.

While we might think these terrorists are stupid for blowing themselves up, they actually are a very intelligent group. They know how to plot. And they know how to manipulate.

Their goal is to ruin this country. Whether it's by killing its citizens or causing there to be a great division in it.

[MLA]

Their goal is to ruin this country. Whether it's by killing its citizens or causing there to be a great division in it.

Really? You think their goal is to ruin our country? I don’t. I think their goal is to get our country out of their business. I think they’d like to see us economically weakened to such a degree that we would no longer hold any sort of real political power on the world stage.

And I do think that if our policies in the Middle East were to change drastically enough that our presence wasn’t felt there, the terrorists wouldn’t have much support behind the “Kill America” rallying cry. If we’re not meddling in their affairs and harming their people, don’t you think their recruitment would go down?

Do fundamentalist Muslims really care what we’re doing in this country? I doubt it. This is not a holy land for them. I can’t imagine they give a flying f**k what we do here. But when we mess with the holy land, I think that’s when they get pissed.

[ejs]

I think they’d like to see us economically weakened to such a degree that we would no longer hold any sort of real political power on the world stage.
Isn't that essentially ruining our country?

[diam124]

I think I agree with this. Not that everyone needs toothpaste and bottled water on an airplane, but it seems like a slippery slope. It’s the whole freedom vs. safety thing, maybe like the patriot act? I know there’s some writer out there who put it much more eloquently than I am.

Really? I'd happily check all of my luggage (ala UK airlines) than have anyone die because of a liquid bomb.

I read online today (ABC news I think) that the people planning the plot did not intend on creating a big enough explosion to immediately take down an airliner. Rather, they wanted to create explosions that were big enough to cause the plane to eventually crash (before being able to return to land), thus creating an even worse psychological effect because of the slow crash and the human suffering. Nice. :rolleyes: (I obviously don't know if this is true, but just thought I'd throw it out there).

[jnettie]

Saying that the terriorists hate us because of our freedom, or whatever the latest buzz word is, is so over simplified. I'm saying it's not only our current foreign policy, but the culmination of the last 60 years. And our current "War on Terror" is doing nothing but make them hate us more.

[MLA]

Isn't that essentially ruining our country?

Not necessarily. We were a good country before we were an economic powerhouse.

And I agree w/jnettie, that what we're seeing is the effects of 60 years of bad policy. I don't place blame on any one administration.

[kris97]

I think we're talking about two things here. The "terrorists", whoever they are, aren't ever going to be swayed. If you're driven enough to commit suicide in service of a cause or religion then, chances are, a Democratic administration and a shift in Middle East politics isn't going to dissuade you. You're still going to vow revenge on the infidels because of whatever harm -real or imagine -- you believe the West has already "done." I don't think their hearts and minds are up for grabs.

The more relevant question is, how do we stop people from joining the ranks of terrorists. I think to some extent they can still be convinced and that the US's actions in the Middle East are affecting those opinions. But let's be clear: we could adopt every single policy the left advocates and there will still be people who want to blow us up. We can't think that radically reshaping foreign policy is a cure all, nor should we undertake such a mission without real attention paid to the security risks inherent to such a course.

[amorey]

diam124, I dunno, I’m just questioning whether it’s worth it. You can bring baby formula, and I’m sure terrorists could find a baby. And even if you check all your luggage, what’s to stop a terrorist from brining an ounce of an explosive in his pocket?

[MLA]

I think we're talking about two things here. The "terrorists", whoever they are, aren't ever going to be swayed. If you're driven enough to commit suicide in service of a cause or religion then, chances are, a Democratic administration and a shift in Middle East politics isn't going to dissuade you. You're still going to vow revenge on the infidels because of whatever harm -real or imagine -- you believe the West has already "done." I don't think their hearts and minds are up for grabs.

The more relevant question is, how do we stop people from joining the ranks of terrorists. I think to some extent they can still be convinced and that the US's actions in the Middle East are affecting those opinions. But let's be clear: we could adopt every single policy the left advocates and there will still be people who want to blow us up. We can't think that radically reshaping foreign policy is a cure all, nor should we undertake such a mission without real attention paid to the security risks inherent to such a course.

Yes! Yes! Yes! EXACTLY! I think we need to find a way not to inspire more hatred of us, thus leading to making it harder to recruit terrorists.

[laura]

diam124, I dunno, I’m just questioning whether it’s worth it. You can bring baby formula, and I’m sure terrorists could find a baby. And even if you check all your luggage, what’s to stop a terrorist from brining an ounce of an explosive in his pocket?

Well there is obviously no sure thing, but I think the opposite is like saying why can't I bring a gun on the airplane w/ me? We have to have limits, even as free citizens, and it's up to the airlines (and by extension the government in this situation) to create those limits. As I was saying before, it isn't like you are driving personally in your car. You are getting on an airplane carrying hundreds of other people. What works for you is one thing, but in this situation, it isn't just you.

ETA: Honestly, I think nothing will stop a completely determined terrorist. But I also don't think that means we should make it easy for them.

[kris97]

I'll repeat what I posted earlier, because it was buried at the bottom of the last page:

You're right, the terrorists are always going to be one step ahead. But what are we supposed to do, stop trying? The steps that are being taken right now are entirely appropriate and justifiable. TSA is doing the best it can under incredibly difficult circumstances to balance necessity of bringing certain items on a plane (like medicine or formula) vs. preserving the safety of not only those on the plane but on the ground. That the measures will not entirely eliminate the risk is not a reason to forego the measures in the first place.

[Rico'sAlice]

Bin Laden - Without the Filters (http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/bin-laden-without-the-filters/2005/11/17/1132016927094.html?oneclick=true)

Included in Bin Laden's writings referenced in the link above were terms of USA's surrender to radical Islam and it went well beyond foreign policy. Knowing that the USA wasn't about to submit to Sharia Law, he toned it down a bit in his 2002 "Letter to America" which focused on our foreign policy instead.


Thanks, that's the sort of thing I was asking about (the book itself). Looks interesting. I'll have to try and get a hold of it to read the actual statements. I love adding new information to the picture and processing it together. (seeing how it all meshes with how things went down wrt Russia, other's statements, etc.)

[Rico'sAlice]

To be honest, I'm not quite sure where to look for direct quotes from terrorists if you only want primary sources.

And, to be fair in regards to the polls you posted, I don't consider most Arabs to be terrorists.

Sorry, wasn't trying to limit you in types of evidence to consider, just suggesting possible sources. (I guess secondary sources would include writings by those who have spent time w/in terrorist cells/networks) Just curious about what leads you to the conclusion "They hate our secular society, capitalism, freedom of religion - pretty much everything about us" outside of just the statement itself being made by various people (knowing what evidence those people -like, American politicians & pundits- have to draw their conclusions from would also be helpful). Sorry that I can't figure out how to clrify that for you better.

As to the poll I mentioned, of course, I don't think that most or even a significant percentage of Arab's are terrorists. Neither do I think that all terrorists are Arabs. But just giving some evidence of what the perception of (and opposition to) the US is in the general Arab world. And although obviously those who would take the step to actually being involved in terrorism are operating in a different way (mentally) they are still products of that society. That's why it seemed relevant to me.

[Annette]

How are they going to prevent people from bringing bottled drinks on the plane? You can still buy water and other stuff past the security. Will they stop the stores from selling beverages?

[diam124]

Sorry, wasn't trying to limit you in types of evidence to consider, just suggesting possible sources. (I guess secondary sources would include writings by those who have spent time w/in terrorist cells/networks) Just curious about what leads you to the conclusion "They hate our secular society, capitalism, freedom of religion - pretty much everything about us" outside of just the statement itself being made by various people (knowing what evidence those people -like, American politicians & pundits- have to draw their conclusions from would also be helpful). Sorry that I can't figure out how to clrify that for you better.

Oh, ok. Well, off-hand I've heard Peter Bergen interviewed and I remember him discussing the issues I pointed out. He wrote this book (among others):
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743278917/sr=8-1/qid=1155339956/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-2335091-6298261?ie=UTF8

And, if I remember correctly, he's one of the few Western journalists who has actually interviewed Bin Laden.

[alisong]

How are they going to prevent people from bringing bottled drinks on the plane? You can still buy water and other stuff past the security. Will they stop the stores from selling beverages?I believe there's secondary security past the regular security check point (i.e. just before you board the plane - they sometimes have these for international flighs). At the secondary check point you'd be prevented from bringing any beverages purchased past the first check point.

[bookworm]

How are they going to prevent people from bringing bottled drinks on the plane? You can still buy water and other stuff past the security. Will they stop the stores from selling beverages?

You can buy them, but you have to consume them before boarding. I didn't see so much secondary security (searching) as the gate agents telling you not to bring liquid on board. I imagine if you pulled something out in flight there would be Serious Consequences.

The Body Shop that's located inside security was closed yesterday--at first I thought "oh, that's weird" (because I was killing time), then I realized that most of what they sell wouldn't be allowed on the plane.

[salysaturn]

That's what I have been hearing as well, drink whatever you buy before you board the plane.

I am due to fly next week. We called the airline (BWI) and got the latest on what we can bring and what we can't, we plan on calling before we leave as well, in case anything changes. Do I mind? Nah. So I don't drink my juice box...no biggie. We always pack our toothpaste etc in our checked luggage, so no change there. The only bad thing is that we usually bring gameboys and our DVD player. So I bought card games. Small change, not a big deal.

[ejs]

That's what I have been hearing as well, drink whatever you buy before you board the plane.

I am due to fly next week. We called the airline (BWI) and got the latest on what we can bring and what we can't, we plan on calling before we leave as well, in case anything changes. Do I mind? Nah. So I don't drink my juice box...no biggie. We always pack our toothpaste etc in our checked luggage, so no change there. The only bad thing is that we usually bring gameboys and our DVD player. So I bought card games. Small change, not a big deal.

We checked the TSA web site this morning and laptops, gameboys, ipods, etc. were NOT on the banned list. I realize things are changing rapidly, though.
http://tsa-7.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/tsa.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=254&p_created=1155227254&p_sid=KB_CFSei&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPSZwX3NvcnRfYnk9JnBfZ3JpZHNvcnQ9JnBfc m93X2NudD0xNiZwX3Byb2RzPSZwX2NhdHM9JnBfcHY9JnBfY3Y 9JnBfcGFnZT0x&p_li=&p_topview=1

[salysaturn]

I told that to my husband as well, but we are probably better off leaving everything at home.

We are allowed cell phones, which will be in my purse anyways :)

[Annette]

As far as medicines go, if they are pills, like Advil, are those allowed? Its a bit confusing from the TSA website, cause they don't distinguish between liquid vs solid medications.

[Sherb]

I'm sure solid pills are allowed. Just no liquids of any kind. I wouldn't try to take Nyquil gelcaps but solid pills would be fine.

[FoxyBlue]

If they start up with tampon bombs, we're all screwed.

Seriously, when does it end? Let's just ban passengers...

[TracieB]

Seriously, when does it end? Let's just ban passengers...

Um... I'd rather be safe than sorry. Even if I had to fly naked, I'd do it to prevent an attack. :cool:

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

Um... I'd rather be safe than sorry. Even if I had to fly naked, I'd do it to prevent an attack. :cool:
Not me. Sure, we'd all be safer living wrapped in cotton batting and never taking a risk, but that's not much of a life, IMO.

[TracieB]

Oh, I'm not saying that I'm going to put a halt on all my traveling (hell, I live in Guam, I'm not taking a boat whenever we want to leave the island!). I'm just saying that I will do whatever it takes to prevent the terrorists from executing an attack, even if that means I can't fly with my lip gloss or other luxury items I'm used to carrying on a plane. Trust me, I love taking risks and don't lead a lackluster lifestyle.

[skraus75]

Not me. Sure, we'd all be safer living wrapped in cotton batting and never taking a risk, but that's not much of a life, IMO.

Problem is then they would hit two sticks together, create fire and set you on fire. :p