Mel Gibson: Sorry for anti-Semitic remarks

[IrisHope]

Mel Gibson: Sorry for anti-Semitic remarks

Original report:
http://cdn.digitalcity.com/tmz_documents/gibson_wm_docs_072806.pdf

Gibson 'Ashamed' About His Behavior
SATURDAY JULY 29, 2006 11:00PM EST

By Ken Lee

Mel Gibson

Photo by: Giulio Marcocchi / Sipa

Mel Gibson released a contrite statement through his publicist Saturday regarding his DUI arrest in Malibu early Friday morning.

“After drinking alcohol on Thursday night, I did a number of things that were very wrong and for which I am ashamed," the statement read. "(After) I was stopped by the L.A. County Sheriffs ... I acted like a person completely out of control when I was arrested, and said things that I do not believe to be true and which are despicable. I am deeply ashamed of everything I said, and I apologize to anyone who I have offended."

Gibson, 50, added in the statement, "I have battled the disease of alcoholism for all of my adult life and profoundly regret my horrific relapse."

Hollywood gossip website TMZ.com posted four pages of what it alleges is a copy of the police report, which details the Oscar winner screaming profanities and anti-Semitic slurs at authorities after being pulled over for speeding on the Pacific Coast Highway on Friday.

Weekend-duty sheriff's spokesman Sgt. John Hocking would not confirm that the police report posted on TMZ was legitimate. He also had no comment on allegations by the Web site of a cover-up, since on Friday sheriff's spokesman Steve Whitmore said that Gibson was "arrested without incident."

"Our investigation has not gotten that far, but we're trying to put out the facts regarding the case. It's still being determined what actually occurred," Hocking tells PEOPLE.


As cited in Ynetnews and Reuters:
'F*****g Jews... Jews are responsible for all wars in the world.' No, these are not new signs of a Neo-Nazi rally; this is allegedly what the actor said when arrested for DUI. Now he apologizes
Ynetnews and Reuters

http://www.tmz.com/2006/07/28/gibsons-anti-semitic-tirade-alleged-cover-up/

http://people.aol.com/people/article/0,26334,1220439,00.html

[kindermom]

Sad. Very sad. My DH who likes MG is sitting next to me right now saying "What an a$$hole." It is just pathetic and he will probably never rebound from this.

It sad that he relapsed. It is sad that if there is a grain of truth in what he said then he is pretty anti-semitic. It is sad that he gives Christians a bad name. And it is sad that it puts fuel on the fire of why Jews hate Passion of the Christ. As a Christian I would not blame alot of people for hating the religion.

[wendalah]

I was just posting about this in Gossip. Making that movie seems to have pushed him over the brink. I know he was never a sterling character, but mentally, he seems to have snapped big-time since The Passion came out. When it first was being made I defended his right to make it and thought it was a fascinating project (and I still do), but looking back--I don't think that's the type of movie a mentally unstable, addicted person should have attempted. He needs help badly.

[Rosebud]

As a Christian I would not blame alot of people for hating the religion.

I don't think Mel is going to make people hate Christianity. Mel is involved in a weirdo, fundamentalist offshoot of Catholicism that doesn't reflect the beliefs of any of the Christians/Catholics that I know. This makes me think "Wow, Mel is screwed up," not "Christians are crazy." :)

It's strange to think of how liked and respected Mel Gibson was even a few years ago. Now, he's gone the Tom Cruise route and completely wacked out. He's got addiction problems, certainly. But he's also isolated himself as he becomes more deeply involved in a (IMO) unconventional, hard core religious belief that isn't doing him any favors.

Mel says he's sorry for saying those things and that he didn't mean it. I don't think that's true. Obviously, he meant it at the time, drunk or not. When you say things that hateful and horrible, you can't just take them back.

[tenofcups]

Mel says he's sorry for saying those things and that he didn't mean it. I don't think that's true. Obviously, he meant it at the time, drunk or not. When you say things that hateful and horrible, you can't just take them back.

Right. It doesn't occur to someone to say such things unless that's part of their thought system to begin with.

His comments don't surprise me, but I'm almost glad that they're out there in the public sphere -- those who hadn't already decided he was a hateful nut might rethink their positions now.

[kindermom]

Rosebud - The sad thing is I know a few Jewish people who think that the movie is further evidence that Christians hate Jews and therefore they want to hate back/think less of Christians. It was shortly after the movie was released that someone I knew wanted to avoid a Catholic wedding of a good friend. He was reticent to go because he thought everyone there hated Jews. Therefore he thought less of them. Maybe it is the small select number of people I know that think that way but I assume others do to.

ETA: I do not know of a single Christian who does think less of Jews. Rather they think more highly of them as they are God's chosen people.

[diam124]

You know what really annoys me - neither CNN nor MSNBC (where I usually get my news) has reported on the content of his comments. Neither of them mentioned the anti-Semitic comments, they just printed portions of his statement. I think his fans (if he still has any) deserve to know what he said. And I don't buy his statement that he didn't mean them. IMHO he would not have said them if he didn't at least partially believe it. What an ass.

[kris97]

You know, if this really were just a random instance of intemperate speech, even if intemperate, I'd probably be willing to say, he was drunk, he's obviously got a substance abuse problem, maybe he really didn't mean it. But ... given his father's beliefs, the controversy over the film, and the fact that the anti-semitic remarks are SO random (I mean, it's not like worshippers at a synagogue were harassing him), I tend to think he was really voicing his uncensored beliefs. Way to squander whatever respect was left for you, Mel. :rolleyes:

[kimbyj]

Sad. Very sad. My DH who likes MG is sitting next to me right now saying "What an a$$hole." It is just pathetic and he will probably never rebound from this.

It sad that he relapsed. It is sad that if there is a grain of truth in what he said then he is pretty anti-semitic. It is sad that he gives Christians a bad name. And it is sad that it puts fuel on the fire of why Jews hate Passion of the Christ. As a Christian I would not blame alot of people for hating the religion.

Why do you feel that a lot of people would hate the Christian religion because of what MG said? He doens't speak for me or any one else in Christinanity. He can only speak for himself. I don't think he gives Christians a bad name. I think he gave himself and his family a bad name. You know it's an interesting thing, whenever we watch the news my friends of color and I always sit there hoping the latest rapist, thief or killer is not someone who looks like us? Why - because so many of *us* have been blamed for things and then people look at us differently or treat us differently. We get asked ridiculous questions like, "So what do you think about XXX?" In some cases they are asking NOT because the topic is of interest to us, or because we know about the topic but they ask clearly because we are in the same ehtnic/racial group. We laugh and talk about the fact that we sre not responsible for what every person of color does. We don't speak for the whole population of people of color. To me. this MG/Christianity thing is the same. He did something wrong not the religion as a whole. Do you know what I mean?

Without meaning to sound as though I don't care about his comments(because I do) I think that many people have come back from doing/saying/acting in *worse*/similiar situations (actually MTV made a whole show out of people who did something and then got back in America's good graces). In fact, had we heard anything about MG in months up until this?

It was hard for me to read the handwritten report but his apology does seem very direct in taking responsibility for his actions. I don't know how I feel about people under the influence and the things they say. I know I have done things when I was drunk that I didn't mean to say or that I would not have done if I weren't drunk (thank goodness those days WAAAAYYY behind me). My friends and I flashed in Nola for beads. I NEVER would have done that with out some libations! :D No it does not excuse his behavior though!

[kindermom]

Kimbyj - As I said in my followup to Rosebud, I know people who think that way. I know people who are quite intelligent who think that way. It may not be a logical conclusion. It may not make sense to you or I (certainly not I). When I hear of bad things Kim Jung Il does I do not think badly of all North Koreans. BUT some people do. It is a wrong assumption but those assumptions are made by SOME people. Certainly not a majority. But by some. And I think it is just one more sad aspect to this whole debacle.

[Delta]

I dunno. I tend to think of alcohol as a truth serum. At least in my case(s). :o I never make up stuff when I drink.

I think he's finished in Hollywood. Done, stick a fork in him.

[prudies]

kimbyj - He apologized for his comments in general, but did not address the antisemitism. As usual with Mel Gibson, there are a lot of little things he says or does, that taken alone maybe you could ignore, but taken all together, it's just too much. The guy is nuts or an anti-semite, or both.

kindermom The sad thing is I know a few Jewish people who think that the movie is further evidence that Christians hate Jews and therefore they want to hate back/think less of Christians. It was shortly after the movie was released that someone I knew wanted to avoid a Catholic wedding of a good friend. He was reticent to go because he thought everyone there hated Jews. Therefore he thought less of them. Maybe it is the small select number of people I know that think that way but I assume others do to.

Kindermom, it really sounds to me as though this attitude you noticed is limited to a small group of people. Most Jews do not feel this way. Jewish organizations like the Anti-Defamation League who took issue with the movie and Mel Gibson were very clear that Christians, and Catholics, for that matter, do not all hate Jews.

And about this: And it is sad that it puts fuel on the fire of why Jews hate Passion of the Christ.

You probably didn't mean to paint this statement with that broad a brush, but it really made me cringe. Jews who had an issue with the Passion movie didn't just plain hate the movie. I mean, for the most part, Gibson's behavior surrounding the movie is what really irked people. I don't want to make this into more than it is, I just hate to see sweeping generalizations.

[diam124]

I mean, for the most part, Gibson's behavior surrounding the movie is what really irked people.

ITA with this. I'm Catholic and I refused to see the movie because I didn't want to give 1 penny to Mel Gibson. I can't stand him and his holier-than-thou attitude.

[Jazz]

I dunno. I tend to think of alcohol as a truth serum.

Hee. Me too. :)


You know, I don't really like Tom Cruise any more, and I didn't bother to see any of his recent movies, but I still enjoy the good old ones ... Top Gun, A Few Good Men, etc. But, after Mel Gibson's behavior when he was making Passion, I can't enjoy any of his old movies. He's just too creepy. I loved Chicken Run (the movie made by the Wallace and Gromit guys), and I had to give my copy away because he's voice weirded me out to much to watch it any more.

[kimbyj]

Kimbyj - As I said in my followup to Rosebud, I know people who think that way. I know people who are quite intelligent who think that way. It may not be a logical conclusion. It may not make sense to you or I (certainly not I). When I hear of bad things Kim Jung Il does I do not think badly of all North Koreans. BUT some people do. It is a wrong assumption but those assumptions are made by SOME people. Certainly not a majority. But by some. And I think it is just one more sad aspect to this whole debacle.


So, I understand what you are saying and am clear - are saying that you know some Jewish people who think that because MG made the Passion and because of his comments this past week end they believe that Christians hate Jews?

[kimbyj]

After re-reading what he said - do y'all really thinks he feels that "Jews are responsible for all of the wars in the world"?

I am thinking that as his PR person I would have written a very similar *apology* letter for him to release. Why? Well, because I wouldn't want to rehash what he said. It was all too terrible. He needed to apologize to several people and I think they tried to get him to do it in a blanket statement - trying to deflect the focus from the Jewish comments maybe? Sad, very sad!

[ejs]

After re-reading what he said - do y'all really thinks he feels that "Jews are responsible for all of the wars in the world"?
I defintely think he believes that. As PPs have said, I don't think people say things when they're drunk that they don't really feel. I think being drunk can take away the "filter" that most people have when they're sober.

I don't necessarily think that he's done in Hollywood. I think he can afford to finance the movies he wants to make. And there will always be people who will want to see them.

[sue-bert]

To paraphrase my sixth grade teacher: "Keep your mouth shut and let people think you're an idiot. Don't open your mouth and prove it to them."

ETA: Just in case anyone misinterprets my intent, the comment was directed at MG, not anybody who posted here!

[kindermom]

So, I understand what you are saying and am clear - are saying that you know some Jewish people who think that because MG made the Passion and because of his comments this past week end they believe that Christians hate Jews?
That is all I was trying to say. I do not doubt it is a minority of people. But it happens none the less. And it does not need to happen. All due to one high-profile, ignorant person.

And I am not sure what he thinks. I would not be surprised that he has anonosity towards Jews. But I am not sure if he has as much hatred as what came out. I know I have said things drunk that may have had about 2% truth but was greatly exaggerated due to alcohol. So how much he believes it I am not sure. But I am sure there is something there. And it is just plain sad. The whole thing is sad.

[IrisHope]

I never ever saw it as anybody's views but MG.

[allyray231]

I think he's finished in Hollywood. Done, stick a fork in him.


Totally agree. He is an idot.

[ysolde]

I think Mel is one messed up dude. He grew up with a father who is a vicious, raving anti-Semite (by Mel's own admission). Mel has been battling substance abuse issues and depression his entire adult life. He found in extremist religion a salve for his deep wounds, but my sense is, he has never been healed. His intense interest in pain, as seen in Braveheart and Passion, strikes me as bordering on sadistic.

Yes, I think he is an anti-Semite, and I think that is very sad. I also think he hates himself, loathes himself, and I think that, too, is very sad. People who hate others usually ascribe to the other the very qualities they can't stand in themselves.

[kam]

You know, if this really were just a random instance of intemperate speech, even if intemperate, I'd probably be willing to say, he was drunk, he's obviously got a substance abuse problem, maybe he really didn't mean it. But ... given his father's beliefs, the controversy over the film, and the fact that the anti-semitic remarks are SO random (I mean, it's not like worshippers at a synagogue were harassing him), I tend to think he was really voicing his uncensored beliefs. Way to squander whatever respect was left for you, Mel.

Exactly. There are too many factors here to ignore and it totally puts into question his denial that there was nothing remotely anti-semetic about his movie. I know people defended it when it came out, but I wonder if they knew then what they know now if they would change their tune.

[IrisHope]

Exactly. I actually defended it and I'm Jewish. My husband and I last nght were saying we were wrong.

[wendalah]

I know people defended it when it came out, but I wonder if they knew then what they know now if they would change their tune.


No. I still don't have issues with the movie itself.

[pocket]

I just want to point out that I SAID and SAID he was an anti-semite when we were discussing the POTC and that the movie held a clear thread of folk anti-semitism exploited and promoted by the Catholic Church for generations until Vatican II.

Harumph.

[IrisHope]

and I defended it. What a fool.

[wendalah]

I don't want to rehash the whole discussion, but in my opinion, the inclusion of Matthew 27:25 in a movie which took care to recognize the unique aspects of each Gospel does not in and of itself connote anti-semitism.

[pocket]

No wendy, but when someone who was raised in an openly anti-semitic sect makes a movie that pointedly recalls a justification for centuries of violence against jews that is significant and purposeful. Especially since this is a justification that was formally put to rest by the Church some 40 years ago. It was clear to me at the time, that he was subtly and purposefully stirring a pot that didn't need to be stirred. Now we see that in fact that subtext was read correctly.

[wendalah]

Pocket, Matthew 25:27 is in the book of Matthew. As is several other incidents that are unique to Matthew that are also portrayed in the film. As are several other incidents in Luke, John, etc. None are more pointedly recalled than any other; all are exceedingly poignant and if I might say: The Matthew verse in question is far less poignant than others to Christians. I realize you are coming at this from the Jewish standpoint, but I'll go ahead and rehash my point that I am coming from it neutrally as a Christian who has actually studied and read the Gospels in context.

The fact that this particular verse has been misunderstood and mispromoted for a long time does not automatically make someone trying to represent the Biblical story anti-semitic for using it. That's why I don't think the movie in and of itself is anti-semitic although I do think Mel is showing some very ugly colors now indeed.

[wendalah]

But, you know what, I'm tired today--I don't want to get into this apologist bullarkey again. The last go-around regarding this movie wore me out. You're right, fine.

[PG-rated]

What concerns me about this is that it will lead to increased anti-Catholic sentiment. Mel Gibson has been one of the more famous Catholics for awhile now, and I think the general public doesn't realize that many of his beliefs stem from his association with a sect that has rejected Vatican II. I worry that people will start to think that all Catholics are closet anti-Semites.

[Delta]

What concerns me about this is that it will lead to increased anti-Catholic sentiment. Mel Gibson has been one of the more famous Catholics for awhile now, and I think the general public doesn't realize that many of his beliefs stem from his association with a sect that has rejected Vatican II.Me too.

I never saw the Passion. I couldn't ever bring myself to watch it.

[wendalah]

I worry that people will start to think that all Catholics are closet anti-Semites.


No shit. I'm worried about that too. They already think we do weird things behind closed doors. My born-again MIL thinks I'm going to hell and my Jewish SIL thinks I'm "creepy" for being Catholic.

[allyray231]

No shit. I'm worried about that too. They already think we do weird things behind closed doors. My born-again MIL thinks I'm going to hell and my Jewish SIL thinks I'm "creepy" for being Catholic.

LOL!! Sorry I am catholic and my DH is jewish so I can't help but laugh at that.

I don't think people think that all catholics are bad. I hardly ever find people who think that Catholics are anti-Semites but that could just be me.

Mel put his feelings out there for all to see-even if he meant to sound that way or not he did. I don't think people think he speaks for eveyone.

[IrisHope]

I don't think catholics are closet anti-semites at atll. I can't imagine anyone thinking that. And I never saw MG as a spokesperson for anybody let alone catholics.

[PG-rated]

No shit. I'm worried about that too. They already think we do weird things behind closed doors.
And you know, people swore up and down and left and right that "The Da Vinci Code" had nothing to do with that, but I really think that was just one more straw on the "weirdo" pile.

Anyway, I've been uncomfortable for a long time with Mel Gibson's self-imposed status as "model Catholic", and I hate that I seem to have been proved right.

ETA: Just to clarify, I don't think anyone in this thread (or even on CC, that I've seen) thinks that Gibson speaks for all Catholics. But I know there are people out there who are very wary of Catholics, and I hate that this adds fuel to the fire.

[diam124]

I worry that people will start to think that all Catholics are closet anti-Semites.

Hmmm... I don't think this is true at all. Anyone who knows or has read anything about Mel Gibson's religious beliefs probably understands that he does not represent mainstream Catholicism. I don't know that he's ever said so, but I was under the impression that his beliefs reject Vatican II. At the very least, his "traditionalist" beliefs are not at all in line with any of the devout Catholics I know including "old-timers" like my grandparents.

I do think we should give non-Catholics a little bit of credit for being able to recognize that one man is not representative of a religion. ;)

[wendalah]

I do think we should give non-Catholics a little bit of credit for being able to recognize that one man is not representative of a religion.

Well, all I can say is: Be one, and enjoy the commentary. It's not like I walk down the street every day and people throw rotten tomatoes at me, but it's a big eye-opener when your fiance's sister blithely thinks nothing of telling you that your religion is sick.

[diam124]

Well, all I can say is: Be one, and enjoy the commentary. It's not like I walk down the street every day and people throw rotten tomatoes at me, but it's a big eye-opener when your fiance's sister blithely thinks nothing of telling you that your religion is sick.


My ILs are Jewish as well and they certainly have issues with Catholicism, but I can guarantee that they don't think Mel Gibson and I share a lot of beliefs.

[pocket]

I'm not uncomfortable with Catholics - just with Catholics who reject VII.

That was a pretty big deal for Jews. It's a formal statement that we are not responsible for what happened to Jesus, and rejects anti-semitism. Considering the central role that the Catholic Church has played in Jewish persecution many Jews took it as a truce. It's true that it isn't necessarily anti-semitic to portray the POTC as he did, but as we now know, in fact he is an anti-semite.

[wendalah]

Oh, don't think I'm just holding the Jewish side of the family responsible. I mentioned I have a born-again side of the family, and my own Lutheran grandmother cries and prays every night my father will convert back to Protestantism. ;)

[cocopops]

I think we all should see the larger issue here. Not to say his remarks were justified by any means because the guy is obviously a complete a-hole! But how about we all focus more on the fact that he was caught driving under the influence and could have possibly seriously injured or killed someone!! :mad: Why is that not a big deal or the bigger issue rather? :confused:

[IrisHope]

because this thread was discussing that part.

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

I think we all should see the larger issue here. Not to say his remarks were justified by any means because the guy is obviously a complete a-hole! But how about we all focus more on the fact that he was caught driving under the influence and could have possibly seriously injured or killed someone!! :mad: Why is that not a big deal or the bigger issue rather? :confused:
Why should it be a larger issue?

[ysolde]

Me too.

I never saw the Passion. I couldn't ever bring myself to watch it.

I saw it on Showtime. It is violent in the extreme. It is historically inaccurate (for example, it has Jesus speaking to Pilate in Latin, and it uses the ecclesiastical, rather than the Classical, pronounciation of Latin). Nevr mind the historical inaccuaracies that are even more troubling (the Temple guards arresting and torturing Jesus (throwing him of a bridge in chains), the "blood libel") and entirely gratuitous.

It is a visually stunning film -- excellent cinematography. Some of the prformances (in particular, by the actress who plays Jesus's mother) are outstanding. In general, the use of the dead languages hindered the performances, IMHO, but that was an artistic choice.

Not a film I will ever see again, and, contrary to what the clearly inept (on that point) JPII said, it "is not as it was."

[jasonsgal]

Unreal..
:eek:

Source: http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/story?id=2256719&page=1

By JAKE TAPPER

July 31, 2006 — Are a drunk man's words a sober man's thoughts, as the old proverb teaches? A police report filed over the weekend about an alcohol-fueled anti-Semitic tirade by actor Mel Gibson has renewed interest not only in the opinions of the famous filmmaker but also in those of his father.

A Los Angeles Sheriff's Department report states that when Gibson was arrested early Friday morning for speeding with a .12 blood alcohol level, the 50-year-old actor lashed out at "f—ing Jews" and said that "the Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world." Gibson had asked a sheriff's deputy, "Are you a Jew?"

After the story broke on Saturday, Gibson issued a statement apologizing for his behavior and for having "said things that I do not believe to be true and which are despicable," but none of those sentiments seem all that detached from the views of the actor's father.

Hutton Gibson, 87, is a leading proponent of what is called Catholic traditionalism, a canon that rejects the changes to Catholicism made during the Second Vatican Council of 1962-1965, which the elder Gibson once called ''a Masonic plot backed by the Jews.''

Hutton Gibson is also outspoken in his views that the Holocaust never happened, or at least not to the degree that historians maintain. "Go and ask an undertaker or the guy who operates the crematorium what it takes to get rid of a dead body," he told the New York Times in 2003. "It takes one liter of petrol and 20 minutes. Now, 6 million?" Hutton Gibson has appeared at events sponsored by the anti-Semitic, Holocaust-denying Barnes Review (Click HERE to see a program from a 2003 seminar, which includes a photograph of Gibson with notorious Holocaust-denier Fredrick Töben) and is heralded on anti-Semitic Web sites around the world.

In one radio interview in 2004, Hutton Gibson said that "most of " what historians say about the Holocaust is "fiction." He claimed that 6 million Jews weren't killed during World War II. Rather, he said, they moved.
"They claimed that there were 6.2 million in Poland before the war, and they claimed after the war there were 200,000 — therefore he must have killed 6 million of them," he said. "They simply got up and left! They were all over the Bronx and Brooklyn and Sydney, Australia, and Los Angeles."

He said concentration camps were merely "work camps." Holocaust museums, he said, are "just a gimmick to collect money."

For Jews, he said, "it's all about control. They're after one world religion and one world government. That's why they've attacked the Catholic Church so strongly, to ultimately take control over it by their doctrine." He added that "to a Jew a Christian commits idolatry every time he looks at a crucifix and says a prayer. You know they're in control and they're going to get in control the way things are going. Because they get all of our people."

His son, he said, was happy about the controversy over "The Passion of the Christ." "Mel says he absolutely couldn't buy PR like this," Hutton Gibson said. He thanked the Anti Defamation League for ensuring that "everybody knows the line now: 'Let the blood be upon us and our children.'"

Notably Mel Gibson has refused to say whether he agrees with his father's views. "My dad taught me my faith, and I believe what he taught me," Mel Gibson told Reader's Digest in 2003. "The man never lied to me in his life."

Disputes Detractors' Agenda
With news of his arrest, some Jewish activists do seem to believe that old proverb that a drunk man's words are a sober man's thoughts. (Or, alternatively, in vino, veritas.)

"It appears that the combination of liquor and arrest has revealed his true character," said the national director of the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai Brith, Abraham Foxman. "We believe there should be consequences to bigots and bigotry. One way to combat bigots is to put a price on bigotry. I would hope that if this is in fact true, that his colleagues condemn him and distance themselves from him."

Gibson has a production deal with ABC Entertainment to make a miniseries about the Holocaust, and his latest film, "Apocalypto," is scheduled for release by the Walt Disney Company. (The Walt Disney Company is the parent company of ABC News.)

In 2004, in the wake of criticism from some Jewish groups that his film "The Passion of the Christ" was anti-Semitic, Gibson was repeatedly asked about his father's views and his views on Jews. In every case, the movie star seemed to refuse to answer directly whether the Holocaust happened as historians affirm or whether it's been blown out of proportion or whether the Jews are responsible for the death of Jesus.

Asked by ABC News' Diane Sawyer whether the Jews killed Jesus, Mel Gibson held that Jews essentially responsible, saying that anyone who disagrees with him is disputing the Bible. "There were Jews and Romans in Israel," Gibson said. "There were no Norwegians there. The Jewish Sanhedrin and those who they held sway over and the Romans were the material agents of his demise. You know, critics who have a problem with me don't really have a problem with me and this film, they have a problem with the four Gospels. That's what their problem is."

As to what happened during the Holocaust, Gibson said, "Do I believe that there were concentration camps where defenseless and innocent Jews died cruelly under the Nazi regime? Of course I do, absolutely. It was an atrocity of monumental proportion." Were millions of Jews, 6 million Jews, killed? "Sure," Gibson said casually.

"Their whole agenda here, my detractors, is to drive a wedge between me and my father," Gibson said. "And it's not going to happen. I love him. He's my father. … I'm tight with him. He's my father. Gotta leave it alone, Diane. Gotta leave it alone." But with news over the weekend that Gibson himself had made anti-Semitic slurs, it may be tough for the media to leave it alone.

[PG-rated]

I do think we should give non-Catholics a little bit of credit for being able to recognize that one man is not representative of a religion. ;)
But I think Catholics get less of a pass on this because we have the Pope. The Vatican works hard to stress that Catholics must speak with one voice, so if you don't know much about Catholicism, and you hear a famous Catholic making anti-Semitic remarks while drunk, I think it's a short leap to think that maybe this is the type of stuff that goes on behind closed doors in Catholic homes. I don't think everyone knows that Mel Gibson doesn't follow current teachings, and even if they do, I doubt many people could pick out the parts where he breaks, especially since he's referenced papal doctrine when answering questions about religion.

Maybe I'm worried for no reason about this, and I would love it if that were the case. But for now, I'm concerned.

[wendalah]

If you want a succinct summary of what is not an uncommon view towards Catholicism, read this:

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0082/0082_01.asp

[diam124]

But I think Catholics get less of a pass on this because we have the Pope. The Vatican works hard to stress that Catholics must speak with one voice, so if you don't know much about Catholicism, and you hear a famous Catholic making anti-Semitic remarks while drunk, I think it's a short leap to think that maybe this is the type of stuff that goes on behind closed doors in Catholic homes. I don't think everyone knows that Mel Gibson doesn't follow current teachings, and even if they do, I doubt many people could pick out the parts where he breaks, especially since he's referenced papal doctrine when answering questions about religion.

Maybe I'm worried for no reason about this, and I would love it if that were the case. But for now, I'm concerned.

Ok, I'll grant you not everyone may follow celebrity gossip and know what a whacko MG is.

But, in all honesty I'm not quite sure what you're concerned about? I don't think this single incident is going to change people's opinions on Catholicism.

Personally, I'm more worried about anti-Semitism here and abroad.

[prudies]

Anti-Catholic sentiment definitely still exists in this country, as does anti-semitism.

I tried to comment earlier, but my comment never posted, but I wanted to say that I also don't understand how anyone would think the content of the movie itself was fine then, but somehow is now offensive.

Again, it's not the movie itself that is antisemitic per se, but all of Mel Gibson's actions surrounding the movie that made him seem suspect, including his insensitivity about how the Passion story has historically been used against Jews. And now his behavior just confirms his crazy or, worse, evil intentions.

I have to admit I'm surprised to hear about Jewish anti-Catholic sentiment (I suppose just like many here often express surprise that there is still anti-semitism), but I guess it's just my own experience. My own family was pretty close with many Catholics growing up, and I always felt a kind of kinship there. If anything, I associate Mel Gibson with fundamentalists.

[prudies]

I saw it on Showtime.

On a lighter note, I don't know why, but this struck me as funny.

Coming up on Showtime, Red Shoe Diaries. But first, Passion of the Christ!

[wendalah]

This still cracks me up:

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/30480

[jnettie]

If you want a succinct summary of what is not an uncommon view towards Catholicism, read this:

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0082/0082_01.asp

Oh, my! That's really aweful! How extremely hateful!


Well, probably because most of my family is Catholic (I'm not, but you all know that by now ;) ), I certainly don't think MG is representative of Catholics at all. But, I will say I'm not suprised by this (his anti-semitism) at all. I subscribe to the idea that alcohol acts as a truth serum and that his true views about the Jewish faith were seen that night.

[wendalah]

It's not really hateful--they truly believe that stuff and feel they are saving Catholics from a bad fate. I just wanted to illustrate that there is a general sentiment existant that Catholicism is warped Christianity.

[diam124]

Wendalah, regarding that lovely illustration, I discovered a very similar booklet on my front door a few months ago. But I think it attacked other religions as well, not just Catholics. To be honest, I can't remember exactly which religious organization left it.

Here's the thing though and maybe I'm just being extremely naive, but if people disagree with Catholicism, so what?! I mean, there are parts of other religions that I find odd or just somewhat out there (and there are parts of Catholicism that I just do not agree with). I just don't understand why people feel like we all need to agree on religion.

[wendalah]

Oh they have a lot to say about a lot of things. Gays, Mormons, Wiccans, etc.

But Prudies and Pocket, this one's just for you :D!!!

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1000/1000_01.asp

[wendalah]

I'll be honest--this kind of sentiment has frightened me more than angered me. Who knows what is right? I am not solid enough in my faith, I suppose.

[kindermom]

I do not think the problem is with people disagreeing with Catholicism per se. As a Christian, after the POTC came out, my sister's boyfriend thought Catholics hated him because Jews killed Jesus. He wanted to back out of a wedding because he did not wanted to be surrounded with people who hated him that much. He also thought I, as a Christian, hated him. That is the problem. A very smart man made a gross generalization about one religion and it hurt everyone and helped no one. I would highly doubt that this recent episode helps the matter with him. He is just one person I am close to who thinks this way.

Religion is a topic that sparks passion in people, whether for or against. Wars are waged over it. Should it matter that we have differing religious views. Not at all. But does it. Yes, across the globe.

[prudies]

A very smart man made a gross generalization about one religion and it hurt everyone and helped no one.

Well, I know this will sound snarky, and I'm sorry, but he doesn't sound smart at all.

So his thinking was that Catholics would go see POTC and say, heeey, I didn't know that! It was those Jews who killed Jesus! Any of those guys around today? How 'bout that Jew groomsman? I hate that guy! :confused:

[PG-rated]

Ok, I'll grant you not everyone may follow celebrity gossip and know what a whacko MG is.

But, in all honesty I'm not quite sure what you're concerned about? I don't think this single incident is going to change people's opinions on Catholicism.

Personally, I'm more worried about anti-Semitism here and abroad.
Oh, I agree that anti-Semitism is a MUCH bigger issue, hands down. And I'm not worried that this one incident is going to make a lot of people hate Catholics. I AM worried that this issue is going to help people who are already uninformed and suspicious (for lack of a better word) about Catholics feel that they're right.

[prudies]

Oh they have a lot to say about a lot of things. Gays, Mormons, Wiccans, etc.

But Prudies and Pocket, this one's just for you :D!!!

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1000/1000_01.asp

It sounds like no one should mess with us Jews. Mel Gibson is so ****ed.

[pocket]

I also feel a kinship with Catholics – their religion is very old and full of ritual. But the only that has enabled us to have a relationship now is VII. If you don’t confront and recant specifically what you have done in the past, how can we more forward? In fact the centralized nature of Catholicism makes it even easier to forgive. If the doctrine is centralized it can simply be changed and that is that. In a generation it’s gone. The Church was responsible for some bad bad things done to Jews not very long ago. My own mother grew up learning that Jews has killed Jesus and were accursed by God until the end of time. My grandfather used to fight Irish gangs in Brooklyn who threw stones at them on the way to Hebrew school. But I bet that none of the Catholics here learned that Jews killed God because the doctrine was changed.

[kindermom]

Well, I know this will sound snarky, and I'm sorry, but he doesn't sound smart at all.

So his thinking was that Catholics would go see POTC and say, heeey, I didn't know that! It was those Jews who killed Jesus! Any of those guys around today? How 'bout that Jew groomsman? I hate that guy! :confused:
Ok. Book smart. I thought it was kind of sad and funny at the time. Particularly that the church would be full of people staring at him because obviously he was Jewish (NOT) and therefore not welcome because Jews killed Jesus. Absurd. I think the hoopla over the movie is what got him thinking. Not that anyone would go to the movie and think that. But rather the discussions going on in the media about the movie being anti-semitic had him buy in to that as well.

[jasonsgal]

From CNN.com:

Actor Mel Gibson enters rehab following his arrest on suspicion of driving under the influence of alcohol, his spokesman confirms.

[msnicolea]

From CNN.com:

Actor Mel Gibson enters rehab following his arrest on suspicion of driving under the influence of alcohol, his spokesman confirms.

I didn't realize they had rehab for bigotry--who knew?

[villanelle75]

Actor Mel Gibson enters rehab following his arrest on suspicion of driving under the influence of alcohol, his spokesman confirms.

Call me cynical, but to me, this smacks of a PR effort to look contrite and soften his actions a bit. Maybe I wouldn't feel that way if he didn't think I killed Jesus, but in this case, I feel like entering rehab might be a PR ploy to suggest that he is so messed up by his alcoholism that maybe we should all think he wasn’t himself and we shouldn’t hate him for what he said because after all, he’s got an alcohol problem, remember? He isn’t in full control of himself, so what he said doesn’t really count. :rolleyes:

[kindermom]

Considering he has struggled with his addiction, I would believe that it is a sincere admission into rehab. Given that his wife almost left him once for drinking, it would be surprised if she was not threatening that now.

[pocket]

My Aunt H had a pretty bad experience at a wedding once actually. It was uncomfortable for her as the only Jew. People made a fuss about her not kneeling and whispered and the MOB said something to her later. Not fun. But it's not like people threw things, whispering doesn't hurt, and as a Jew you can't avoid all situations with ignorant or misguided people. they are everywhere!

[villanelle75]

From an article on MSNBC

Gibson’s publicist Alan Nierob denies the actor has entered a residential rehabilitation facility. He said the actor was "participating in an ongoing program to deal with [his alcohol problem]." "The guy is trying to stay alive."

[cocopops]

because this thread was discussing that part.

You ladies have me wrong. I am not saying not to discuss his remarks or the fact that he is a complete idiot, a-hole, racist, bigot, SOB with a desperate attempt for some PR etc. because I agree with all of you 100%. All I am saying is lets not forget the fact that he could have killed someone seeing as though he was also drunk in addition to his comments. :cool:

Sorry but my cousin died as a result of a drunk driver! So when I hear about DUI or DWI it his close to home :mad:

[chrisinluv]

My Aunt H had a pretty bad experience at a wedding once actually. It was uncomfortable for her as the only Jew. People made a fuss about her not kneeling and whispered and the MOB said something to her later. Not fun.

That was probably because they were having a full mass. The priest usually makes an announcement that anyone who is not Catholic is not required to participate, but of course no way to know in the case of your Aunt H. There is a controversy in the Church, though, about whether or not people should stand or kneel at certain points during mass. I know it sounds ridiculous, but there it is. So perhaps if there was whispering, it was about that.


I don't believe this statement for one minute:

"I acted like a person completely out of control when I was arrested, and said things that I do not believe to be true"

Because alcohol lowers inhibitions, it doesn't turn someone into an anti-semite. I wonder what type of "program" he's allegedly participating in. Of course, they are only talking about treatment because it will probably help him come sentencing time. I doubt he has any intentions of quitting drinking.

I've had about enough of Mel, Tom, and hell, even Lindsay. Would they go away already?

cocopops, sorry to hear about your cousin. It always irks me when people get off easy after driving drunk or under the influence of drugs.

[IrisHope]

I didn't realize they had rehab for bigotry--who knew?

lol

[jasonsgal]

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/graphics/art3/0731062melmug1.jpg

[jasonsgal]

I guess this is how Mel and his people decided to handle the situation??
:rolleyes:

What a joke..
----
SOURCE: http://www.deadlinehollywooddaily.com/exclusive-mel-gibson-was-really-on-the-verge-of-suicide-before-his-dui-arrest-this-was-a-death-wish/
----
EXCLUSIVE: Mel Gibson Was 'Really On The Verge Of Suicide' Before His DUI Arrest; 'This Was A Death Wish'
I'm told by a source intimate with his situation tonight that Mel Gibson "was really on the verge of suicide because he felt he was helpless to alcohol and didn't know what to do about it." Sure, my reaction was: sounds like spin. But the source here is someone I've known closely for years. Make your own judgment -- here's the rest of what he told me about Gibson (mugshot left): "No one's really asking questions about his state of mind. That's why he was driving around 90 miles an hour. This was a death wish. If that cop hadn't stopped him, this guy was going to be wrapped around a pole. This is such a bigger issue than 'Will he work again?' This is about his not wanting to live anymore. I've seen what he's gone through and what he's going through. You have to understand the disease of alcoholism. He was back in it. There's no doubt in my mind he was trying to kill himself that night." As for his anti-Semitic slurs during his DUI arrest, I'm told that Gibson doesn't remember saying them. "Why? He had alcoholic blackout syndrome. I don't know a lot about it. I've not had a lot of experience with it. He has some recollection of parts of the evenings. But he's not denying he said those things, and if anything he's owning up to it. But nobody could verify it. Not even he or his lawyers have seen the police report yet." The insider called Gibson's situation "tragic. It's not about what people are focusing on, understand that. 'This is Mel Gibson. He can do whatever he wants. He has all the money in world. He has a wonderful family. He has a wonderful wife.' They're not thinking about the real issue here: alcoholism. Nobody is talking about his alcoholism." Presently, I'm told Gibson is in a non-residential alcohol recovery program in the Malibu area.

UPDATE: *Publicist Alan Nierob informed the Los Angeles Times for its Tuesday edition that his client Mel Gibson "is fighting for his life" in his struggle with drinking.*

[allyray231]

If you can get a NY Post today they have some GREAT pictures of Mel drinking with some young girls :)

[msnicolea]

BACKLASH BEGINS: ABC yanking a Holocaust miniseries it was developing with Mel Gibson's production company after the actor-producer reportedly went on an anti-Semitic rant when he was arrested for alleged drunk driving early Friday.



Say WHAT?!?!? Why is the world was HE doing a miniseries about the Holocaust?

[ysolde]

It makes very little sense. If Mel really is fighting for his life, then why is he in a non-residential rehab facility? Several people who are close to me are recovering alcoholics (I respect their anonymity), and I know enough about this disease to know darn well that, if Mr. Gibson has reached the point where he is suicidal, a non-residential program is probably not going to do him much good.

[jasonsgal]

SOURCE: drudgereport.com


MEL SAYS SORRY TO THE JEWS
Tue Aug 01 2006 11:10:45 ET

August 2, 2006 -- There is no excuse, nor should there be any tolerance, for anyone who thinks or expresses any kind of Anti-Semitic remark. I want to apologize specifically to everyone in the Jewish community for the vitriolic and harmful words that I said to a law enforcement officer the night I was arrested on a DUI charge.

I am a public person, and when I say something, either articulated and thought out, or blurted out in a moment of insanity, my words carry weight in the public arena. As a result, I must assume personal responsibility for my words and apologize directly to those who have been hurt and offended by those words.

The tenets of what I profess to believe necessitate that I exercise charity and tolerance as a way of life. Every human being is God’s child, and if I wish to honor my God I have to honor his children. But please know from my heart that I am not an anti-Semite. I am not a bigot. Hatred of any kind goes against my faith.

I’m not just asking for forgiveness. I would like to take it one step further, and meet with leaders in the Jewish community, with whom I can have a one on one discussion to discern the appropriate path for healing.

I have begun an ongoing program of recovery and what I am now realizing is that I cannot do it alone. I am in the process of understanding where those vicious words came from during that drunken display, and I am asking the Jewish community, whom I have personally offended, to help me on my journey through recovery. Again, I am reaching out to the Jewish community for its help. I know there will be many in that community who will want nothing to do with me, and that would be understandable. But I pray that that door is not forever closed.

This is not about a film. Nor is it about artistic license. This is about real life and recognizing the consequences hurtful words can have. It’s about existing in harmony in a world that seems to have gone mad.

END

[diam124]

I think Mel Gibson needs to just lay low for a while and stop issuing press releases. It seems to me like this is just in response to the backlash and maybe he is just trying to salvage his career rather than being sincere about his feelings and actions. I think he should have addressed his remarks in his initial statement (rather than just vague references to what he said). It also seems odd to issue a press release asking for Jews to help him out. Why doesn't he just seek out help without issuing a big old press release about it?! And what exactly does he want them to help him with? Either he's an anti-Semite or he's not and it sounds like he's saying he is but could be convinced otherwise if Jews would only meet with him.

[ysolde]

Mr. Gibson, I am not Jewish. Nice words. You have a lot of soul-searching to do, on your own. Good luck on your journey.

[IrisHope]

Maybe this experience will change his life. I hope he does some soul searching and something good comes out of all of this.

[MLA]

I hope he does some soul searching and something good comes out of all of this.

I agree with you. Maybe this will open his eyes and he'll actually learn something from it.

[prudies]

Maybe he'll convert.

[pocket]

That was probably because they were having a full mass. The priest usually makes an announcement that anyone who is not Catholic is not required to participate, but of course no way to know in the case of your Aunt H. There is a controversy in the Church, though, about whether or not people should stand or kneel at certain points during mass. I know it sounds ridiculous, but there it is. So perhaps if there was whispering, it was about that.

Aunt H was raised a Catholic and converted to Judaism. This was a family wedding and she was the only Jew as my mother did not attend. She understands what one is supposed to do at Mass, and she remained seated when the rest of the Church kneeled. The people were whispering because she is a Jew, not because of some internal debate re: standing or kneeling.

[PG-rated]

Pocket, I think that's just horrible. Anyone whispering about what someone else is doing during the consecration is clearly missing the point of the mass.

I think that apology sounded fairly sincere, but I'm not one of the people being apologized to, so I'm not really in a position to draw conclusions. And it's all just words on a page for now - we'll see what comes out of this.

[wendalah]

The people were whispering because she is a Jew, not because of some internal debate re: standing or kneeling.


Just a note on this matter: Most Catholics don't point and whisper "look at the Jew." I am guessing your aunt was a curiosity as she converted to Judaism--not a very common occurence among Catholics and especially not common among very strong Catholic cultures such as Filipino and Latino.

Not saying it's right but I can see people being gossipy and saying "There's the one who converted." Which is different than, "Holy shit, there's a Jew among us."

My MIL and her sister both were raised Jewish and both converted to Christianity. Their family treated them like they were circus animals. Conversion in strong religious backgrounds is usually not taken silently.

[allyray231]

Just a note on this matter: Most Catholics don't point and whisper "look at the Jew." .

I do that to DH everyday ;)

[wendalah]

Allyray, me too. Especially when he's naked! ;)

[wendalah]

BTW I always get pointed out at every family gathering. On the MIL side they always say in a hushed voice, "She's the Catholic," and someone inevitably tries to rope me into a conversation about how much biblical knowledge I actually have and how I don't really know Jesus. (MIL is always dragging home lost causes who she's trying to save. They love to discuss the Lord.) On FIL's side they think it's really funny to make me try and read out of the Jewish prayer books. Why don't YOU give it a try, Wendy? HAHAHAHA. Or they point at something written in Hebrew and say What do you think THAT says, Wendy? HAHAHAHA! That joke never gets old.

[allyray231]

When I first met my DH's grandmother-her response to me was "Oh my cousin married a gentile."

[wendalah]

I sound a little pissy, but in reality, I actually am grateful I get to be part of such a varied set of religious atmospheres.

[pocket]

I guess I am not being clear. I am saying that I think there is a connection between Vatican II and the end of institutional anti-semitism within the Catholic Church. My Aunt H and mom grew up in an anti-semitic environment focused around the blame assigned to Jews for the death of Jesus. The relationship between Jews and Catholics is long and bloody and has only been healed by the definitive rejection of institutional anti-semitism by the Second Vatican Council. I assure you that my family’s church was in fact bothered by Aunt H’s Judaism, her presence in the Church and the fact that she remained respectfully seated rather than participate in the Mass. Most of you never learned Jews were responsible for the death of Jesus so it seems silly an irrelevant to you. It’s not a part of your faith and it seems bizarre to think that anti-semitism was a part of Catholicism when you own parents were children. But when my mom and Aunt H were growing up, they learned it in school and cried when they learned that the Jews killed Jesus and caused his terrible suffering, and that the burden of guilt was on Jews until the end of time.

[wendalah]

I assure you that my family’s church was in fact bothered by Aunt H’s Judaism, her presence in the Church and the fact that she remained respectfully seated rather than participate in the Mass.

Pocket, this was a family wedding, correct--not a public Mass? There is a difference. Projecting family disapproval onto an entire diocese is what I'm wondering about here.
And my mother (born 1940) did not have an anti-Semitic Catholic education.

[prudies]

Most of you never learned Jews were responsible for the death of Jesus so it seems silly an irrelevant to you.

What do people learn nowadays? I guess that there's any controversy over this has always confused me. There were Jews and Romans there. The Romans gave the order and carried it out. But the Jews were in the crowd. Right? What's the issue?

I'm going to be sorry I asked this, aren't I?

[pocket]

Pocket, this was a family wedding, correct--not a public Mass? There is a difference. Projecting family disapproval onto an entire diocese is what I'm wondering about here.
And my mother (born 1940) did not have an anti-Semitic Catholic education.

Yes, a family wedding and my mother was born in 1941. What did your mother learn about jews? Boy did my family have an anti-semitic upbringing! It was very hard when Aunt H met her husband and decided to convert. There are still a lot of hard feelings around the conversion to Judaism. Another faction converted to LDS, but that is more acceptable.

Wendy, why do you doubt that the church members would have hard feelings about jews? It's quite common in Catholic countries even now. When Pita got so sick on our honeymoon, our local friends - even thoguh they are communists - were very worried that they had poisoned us at the synogogue we visited.

[wendalah]

I'm going to be sorry I asked this, aren't I?

No, probably not. We learn that we are all responsible for the death of Jesus. That He died so our sins will be forgiven. As an imperfect, sinning race we are all responsible for the necessity of a Savior.

[wendalah]

What did your mother learn about jews?

I will ask her in depth sometime this week, but her education was not hate- or blame-based, I do know that much. My mom has never had any issues with Jews. She had a stricter education than I did but from what I can gather it was just basic separatist Catholicism (we are Catholic, you are not, et al--she married a Protestant and they weren't allowed to go up on the altar). If I were to convert it would definitely be annoying to her, but it would be irksome regardless of what religion I chose.

ETA: My dad didn't convert until after I was born so they were married a good 10-15 years by the time he did. My uncle remained Protestant most of his life and just now in his 60s decided to convert (my aunt is an Italian Catholic). My grandmother hates it.

[cosmic]

Not only does Mel Gibson's father not believe in the Holocaust, he also believes the September 11th attacks have been misrepresented.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutton_Gibson

Could the apple far from the tree?

[PG-rated]

And my mother (born 1940) did not have an anti-Semitic Catholic education.
Neither did my parents, IIRC. Although my mom did get told she was going to hell for going to church with her grandparents, who were Episcopalians. :rolleyes:

I'm far from being a Church historian, but I don't think Nostra Aetate was an actual reversal of Church teaching at the time, was it? I was under the impression that it was more about clarifying and solidifying a shift that had been taking place for a long time, and apologizing for past wrongs at the same time. I don't think that the "Jews killed Christ" bit was part of the regular catechism at that point, although I'm sure it may have been added in some places.

[wendalah]

Just saw this:

Wendy, why do you doubt that the church members would have hard feelings about jews?

Because in this day and age, as you yourself noted, it's not taught or encouraged. I have been going to Catholic church all my life and in various regions (Ohio, New Hampshire, Michigan, Texas, California), I come from a very strong Catholic background, I have a father and several aunts/uncles who went through conversion as adults, my sisters were religiously educated in the '60s, and I have not encountered any sort of pervasive anti-Semitism in the Church. I don't doubt it exists, I'm just saying--from what you describe I would guess it was family disapproval feeding more into things than an official vibe in any one diocese.

ETA: Was this in America?

My vibe on Catholicism is it's a rather separatist religion in general. It's not evangelical and it has plenty of look-down-the-nose going on about various religions.

[ysolde]

My mother received a Roman Catholic education, and she was definitely taught, until the Second Vatican Council, that the Jews were responsible for the death of Jesus, and that their descendant bore that blame for all time. My mother was born in 1942 (and now that you know, all of you must die ;) ).

According to her (and my father, who grew up Roman Catholic, but received a Jesuit education, so was never "fed such rubbish"), it was not until VCII that the RC Mass stopped talking about the collective guilt of the Jews in the death of Jesus.

[wendalah]

My mom is actually a Greek Byzantine Catholic (as am I, although I had normal Roman Catholic CCD). My dad is the only Roman Catholic in our family. May have something to do with differences in education.

[prudies]

I know the idea that we're all responsibel for Jesus's death, but aren't Catholics taught who carried out the death sentence?

[wendalah]

Yeah, but it wasn't hammered home that it was THE JEWS who did it. Just the mob, basically. We were also taught that Pontius Pilate (a Roman) could have stopped things, but he didn't. He allowed Barabbas to be released in Jesus's stead. (Shrug.)

The cruxificion is a highly nuanced lesson in Christianity. There was A. Lot. Going. On. Of note. I can list a looooong column of notable, carefully examined points in the entire story that we studied.

[wendalah]

Any other Catholics in here who can relate? I'm beginning to perspire being the spokesperson. ;)

[chefker]

“After drinking alcohol on Thursday night, I did a number of things that were very wrong and for which I am ashamed," the statement read. "(After) I was stopped by the L.A. County Sheriffs ... I acted like a person completely out of control when I was arrested, and said things that I do not believe to be true and which are despicable. I am deeply ashamed of everything I said, and I apologize to anyone who I have offended."

<snip>

As cited in Ynetnews and Reuters:
'F*****g Jews... Jews are responsible for all wars in the world.' No, these are not new signs of a Neo-Nazi rally; this is allegedly what the actor said when arrested for DUI. Now he apologizes
Ynetnews and Reuters

http://www.tmz.com/2006/07/28/gibsons-anti-semitic-tirade-alleged-cover-up/

http://people.aol.com/people/article/0,26334,1220439,00.html

Um, yeah. Riiiiiight, Mel. What's that old Irish saying? "When the spirits go in, the truth comes out." Yup, that's the one.


Wendy--I haven't read the whole tail end of this thread, but I can say that in Catholic school, we were never taught "The Jews killed Jesus." It was stressed quite a bit that Jesus WAS a Jew, and as you mentioned, how Pontius Pilate could have saved Jesus by stopping the sentencing/crucifixion.

[allyray231]

My mother received a Roman Catholic education, and she was definitely taught, until the Second Vatican Council, that the Jews were responsible for the death of Jesus, and that their descendant bore that blame for all time. My mother was born in 1942 (and now that you know, all of you must die ;) ).

According to her (and my father, who grew up Roman Catholic, but received a Jesuit education, so was never "fed such rubbish"), it was not until VCII that the RC Mass stopped talking about the collective guilt of the Jews in the death of Jesus.

Yup-that is what my mom was taught.

The funny thing is though-I find more of my DH family and his friends have an issue with ME being catholic then ANYONE on my side having an issue that DH is jewish

And his family is not even religious. I can't tell you the times people have asked me "why didn't I convert!!!" Umm because I didn't. No one in my family ever expected DH to become a catholic.

Also when I was pg-eveyone thought that I was prolife because "I was taught something differnt about when life begins."

So if anything, I find that I get critized more for being catholic. At my wedding, the catholic side had no issue with the Rabbi, but the jewish side did with the priest.

[ejs]

Does Mel Gibson think that anyone actually believes he doesn't really think those things about Jews? And the garbage about contemplating suicide before the accident?

I had a friend who tried to commit suicide when drunk. When we caught her, she didn't change her train of thought and start spewing hateful comments. Her focus was still on killing herself.

I realize that alcohol affects everyone differently, but he was at .12%. I find it hard to believe he experienced memory blackouts from that amount.

What does he expect to come out of his meetings with Jewish leaders? Why do I have a feeling he'll soon be making a large donation to the Anti-Defamation League or the Simon Wiesenthal Center? Why should they even meet with him? He's an actor and a movie maker. He's not a politician, world leader, etc.

I think it's silly if anyone thinks that he speaks for all Catholics and Christians.

[wendalah]

BTW I'm not trying to let the entire Catholic church off the hook. I'm just relating honestly what I was taught and how I understand Judaism in relation to the life/death of Jesus. I do want to talk to my mom more about this, because she is a very devout Catholic and her views on Jews are not negative whatsoever.

[diam124]

Well, I'm not totally sure what my parents were taught (both went to Catholic grade school, high school and college) but it wouldn't surprise me if they were taught that Jews were responsible for Jesus' death (just because they had such an old-school education prior to Vatican II). I did not attend Catholic school, but I did go to CCD. To be honest, I don't remember learning much about the Romans at all, so it's also likely that I was taught in CCD that Jews killed Jesus. However, the big distinction to me is the whole idea that Jews today are somehow to blame. I can say for certain I was NEVER taught that and I just don't understand it (even if people did believe Jews killed Jesus). So, I do not think that anti-Semitism has been acceptable in the Catholic church in recent history. I think the stories about Jews being shunned by Catholics and whispered about in churches are horrible and very sad and it's not something that I've ever personally seen.

My DH will attend mass probably once a year (usually Catholic weddings). He has attended Christmas Eve mass with me a few times as well. I don't think it's his favorite thing to do, but at the same time I don't think he feels like too much of an outsider. My BIL was raised Christian, but with no real affiliation and his kids are in Catholic schools. So, he attends mass but sits when we're kneeling, etc. just like my DH. (My point is that just because you're not participating doesn't mean that everyone assumes you're Jewish). But, I don't think I've ever asked him to attend at Easter.

[PG-rated]

Yeah, but it wasn't hammered home that it was THE JEWS who did it. Just the mob, basically. We were also taught that Pontius Pilate (a Roman) could have stopped things, but he didn't. He allowed Barabbas to be released in Jesus's stead. (Shrug.)

The cruxificion is a highly nuanced lesson in Christianity. There was A. Lot. Going. On. Of note. I can list a looooong column of notable, carefully examined points in the entire story that we studied.
Yeah, I definitely remember learning about the bit about Pontius Pilate washing his hands and how that didn't do anything to absolve him.

Personally, I remember being shocked when I found out that there were Christians out there who believed that all Jews are responsible for Christ's death, because it was an idea I was literally never exposed to growing up.

[prudies]

So if anything, I find that I get critized more for being catholic. At my wedding, the catholic side had no issue with the Rabbi, but the jewish side did with the priest.

allray - I would guess some of the issue with the priest was more of an issue with interfaith marriage and how the kids would be raised, rather than with Catholics in general.

[allyray231]

allray - I would guess some of the issue with the priest was more of an issue with interfaith marriage and how the kids would be raised, rather than with Catholics in general.

I am sure it was-but it is funny coming from his family since 1)they are not reglious at ALL and 1) both his parents are remarried to catholics.

My mom did learn in school that the jews killed jesus, but was never raised to dislike jews. Both her and my grandparents had many jewish friends.

Guess it depends on the family

[wendalah]

Yeah, the Catholic church has softened a lot regarding interfaith marriage. As I noted, they weren't thrilled about my non-Catholic-but-still-a-bona-fide-Christian dad.

[Delta]

I'm a converted Catholic and didn't go to CCD or anything so I can't comment on that. I don't recall any discussion about who killed Jesus in my RCIA classes though. I DO recall knowing that I was making the right decision to become a Catholic when the priest talked about the Catholic view on ecumenism towards Judaism, Islam, etc. JPII was big on this, but Benedict is not so much.

And on another note, I remember my husband called me sugar tits once when we were dating and I was extremely amused and laughed for a long time. I think that's when I started falling in love with him. :p

[pocket]

ETA: Was this in America?

No - in the Philippines.

[kam]

The faith of my parents definitely was different from the faith and religion my brother and I were taught. Nuns used to use rulers and taught CCD classes. When we were in CCD/CYO, it was volunteers (and some of them were awful but would never ever use a ruler). We learned that a mob was responsible for killing Jesus, but my parents learned that a mob of Jews were responsible. While it shows that Gibson definitely used an "old school" of thought, it really bothers me that the Pope indicated that it was "as it was".

[katmg]

Prudies - Speaking as a non-Catholic (my mother converted from Catholicism before I was born) whose knowledge of what the Catholic church might/might not teach about the Jews being responsible for Jesus' death (phew, that was a long intro!) I believe that because Pontius Pilate (the Roman governor) turned Jesus over to the governing Jewish council who wanted him (Jesus) out b/c of his radical ideas and agreed to have him crucified that is where the idea came from that the Jews were "responsible" for Jesus' death.

But then again since most of my recent memory about this story is from Jesus Christ Superstar - I could be wrong. :o

[thegurl77]

I don't feel sorry for him one bit, nor do I buy his empty apologies. All he is sorry about is that he got "caught" and made this disgusting comments to someone other than the other sick-o's that share his point of view.

[prudies]

kat - I love Jesus Christ Superstar.

allyray - I am sure it was-but it is funny coming from his family since 1)they are not reglious at ALL and 1) both his parents are remarried to catholics.

It's a little odd, given that they're both remarried to Catholics, but for parents, especially Jewish parents, it's all about the (potential) grandkids. And I know we've had this discussion plenty of times on cc, but the idea of whether a Jew considers himself religious, or practicing, is not the whole story of how he views himself a Jew. I'm sure you know this, but it's both culture and religion. And anyway, it's still all about the grandkids.

[PG-rated]

So I did talk to my mom about this, and she confirmed that she was never taught that all Jews were responsible for the death of Jesus. She said that whenever they studied the Passion, Pontius Pilate was the villain. She was taught about historical persecutions of Jews, but was also told that Jews had turned away from God by not accepting Jesus as the Messiah. She and I both think that before Vatican II and Nostra Aetate, Church doctrine was "open to interpretation" on this topic, so Catholics were taught whatever the nuns teaching that class felt was right at the time.

[jennylou]

What I don't understand is how easy people seem to be going on Mel Gibson. If he had said something about black people/Mexicans/women/etc, would there be more of a backlash?

ETA: By people, I mean the news media, etc.

[msnicolea]

Deuce Bigalow vs. Mel Gibson

by Joal Ryan
Aug 3, 2006, 6:00 PM PT

Rob Schneider's adamant: Mel Gibson has been rubbed out of Deuce Bigalow's black book.

"I, Rob Schneider, a 1/2 Jew, pledge from this day forward to never work with Mel Gibson, actor-director-producer and anti-Semite," vowed an open letter baring the comic actor's signature.

The declaration was published as a full-page ad in Variety on Thursday, an otherwise quiet day on the Gibson nuclear-meltdown watch.

The unsaid joke of the letter is that, up until now, Schneider's and Gibson's paths have never been in danger of crossing. Schneider, the Saturday Night Live alum, makes comedies like Deuce Bigalow: Male Gigolo and Deuce Bigalow: European Gigolo. Gibson, the two-time Oscar winner, makes epics like Braveheart and The Passion of the Christ.

Still, Schneider seems to want to head off any chance collaboration with the blockbuster star who reputedly railed against "f--king Jews" during a drunken-driving arrest last week.

"Even if Mr. Gibson offered me the lead role in Passion of the Christ 2, I, like Bernie Brillstein, would have to say 'NO!'," the Schneider letter declares.

Brillstein is the longtime Hollywood manager who told the Los Angeles Times that, if asked, he would not represent Gibson. "I don't like bigots," Brillstein said.

The Schneider letter evokes Brillstein's name several times, such as when it states that even if Gibson "had a juicy voiceover role in his new flick Apocalypto and I spoke ancient Mayan, I, like Bernie Brillstein would still have to say 'NO!'"

Schneider goes on to rule out potential future work with Gibson's 87-year-old father, Hutton Gibson, who is described as "the Mad Max of Holocaust deniers." And, in a plug for his own upcoming movie, Big Stan, Schneider declares he wouldn't cast the younger Gibson as the film's "Nazi gang leader"--even if he "had a time machine and could go back in time and recast the lead."

Schneider's publicist did not respond to an email Thursday seeking further comment and clarification of the Variety ad. Unknown then was whether a line about a Malibu restaurant ("You won't see ME at Taverna Tony's....anytime soon!!") was Schneider confusing the venue for Moonshadows, another Malibu restaurant, and the one where Gibson reportedly held court in the hours before his DUI arrest.

That Schneider was in any kind of letter-writing form seems to indicate the 42-year-old has recovered sufficiently after collapsing last month on the set of Big Stan. Schneider, who is making his directing debut with the prison comedy, was waylaid by food poisoning and heat exhaustion, his rep said at the time.

Schneider previously practiced his penmanship with an open letter/Variety ad that denounced a newspaper columnist who'd been dismissive of the Deuce Bigalow series.

Gibson, 50, was charged Wednesday with two misdemeanor counts of driving under the influence. In the pair of apologies issued since the July 28 arrest, the star has admitted to driving after drinking, and suffering an alcoholic relapse. He has since begun "an ongoing program of recovery."

Gibson has also begun an ongoing program of recovery, of sorts, with regards to "everyone in the Jewish community." The actor/director has asked for "one-on-one" meetings with Jewish leaders to "discern the appropriate path for healing."

The Anti-Defamation League has accepted Gibson's latest words of contrition. And even Deuce Bigalow has left the door open for a Schneider-Gibson billing.

In the Schneider Variety ad--not to be confused for the South Park Variety ad that seemed to be a Gibson jab, but actually wasn't--the comic writes that if his "financial backers, some of whom share Mr. Gibson's hankering for a good bottle of tequila," think he should work with the Lethal Weapon A-lister, then he might have to heed their advice.

"Because after all, I don't get to call all the shots."

[cosmic]

It'll be interesting to see the long term impact of this on Mel Gibson, if any.

[PG-rated]

What I don't understand is how easy people seem to be going on Mel Gibson. If he had said something about black people/Mexicans/women/etc, would there be more of a backlash?

ETA: By people, I mean the news media, etc.

Well, I think a lot of people are hedging their bets because he's such a powerful force in entertainment, and Hollywood has a ridiculously short memory. I mean, there was a lot of talk about how Roman Polanski should've been able to come collect his Oscar in person, and the man drugged and raped a young girl. If he's forgiven by the general public for this, people don't want to risk being on his bad side permanently. Which is just cowardly, IMHO.

[prudies]

psst, South Park is reairing its Passion of the Jew episode this week.

[trestlegirl]

What I don't understand is how easy people seem to be going on Mel Gibson. If he had said something about black people/Mexicans/women/etc, would there be more of a backlash?

ETA: By people, I mean the news media, etc.

To their credit, KTLA news has been pretty harsh on him. Disney pulled the plug on his holocaust series, and are apparently trying to find loopholes to get out of distributing his latest movie.

Personally, I had already decided never to watch his movies again after POTC. What an ass.

[PG-rated]

psst, South Park is reairing its Passion of the Jew episode this week.

I heard that. :) When it first aired, I thought, "It's funny 'cause it's true!" Now I think, "It's sad 'cause it's true." *sigh*

[prudies]

I had already decided never to watch his movies again after POTC.

Truth be told, I never wanted to see another MG movie after Braveheart. I hated that damn movie. Good lord, just DIE already.

[ejs]

Thank goodness that Patrick Swayze has spoken up and defended Mel. Because his opinion means so much to me! :rolleyes:

[villanelle75]

What did Patrick S. say?

[ejs]

Mon Aug 7, 5:59 PM ET



LONDON - Patrick Swayze has joined several of Mel Gibson's celebrity friends in defending the actor, who in a drunken tirade blamed Jews for the world's wars.


Gibson is "a wonderful human being," Swayze told GMTV in an interview being aired Monday. "He is not anti-Semitic."

Gibson, 50, was arrested on drunken driving charges July 28 on the Pacific Coast Highway in Malibu, Calif., where he unleashed an angry anti-Semitic outburst on the arresting deputy.

The "Lethal Weapon" series star and Oscar-winning director of "Braveheart" has apologized twice for his words and acknowledged his long struggle with alcoholism.

Swayze, 53, downplayed his friend's drunken outburst, telling GMTV that "people say stupid things when they happen to have a few, and especially if you don't drink any more, or have limited your drinking for a long time and all of a sudden you decide to have one too many with the boys — you are stupid."

Swayze said most people can behave foolishly without creating a public stir, but stars live under far greater scrutiny.

Swayze, who is starring in the West End production of "Guys and Dolls," said the incident certainly would not end Gibson's career.

"When you are a pit bull, and you love what you do and you are going to continue to grow, that talent will find its way out," Swayze said.

"Talent deserves to be honored. Hands deserve to be slapped if you do something stupid as well, but don't take it too far."

[jnettie]

Swayze: 'Mel's no racist' (http://www.itv.com/news/entertainment_20e14f7f493e8d40891fe456811df72e.htm l)

In an interview, Swayze - who has had his own problems with drink - was asked whether he thought the arrest could spell the end of Gibson's career.

He said: "No way - are you kidding me? A man that talented? You don't put somebody down like that, you can try - they've tried in my world.

"When you are a pitbull and you love what you do and you are going to continue to grow, that talent will find its way out one or the other.

"If anybody dares try to pull this cr*p of messing with Mel's career - it's wrong, it's unfair, it's not right. Talent deserves to be honoured, hands deserve to be slapped if you do something stupid as well, but don't take it too far."

ETA...lol! We crossposted ejs!

[trestlegirl]

Dammit! Now I have to put Patrick Swayze on my "actors I refuse to support" list too.

How will I survive?!?!? :rolleyes:

[villanelle75]

Oh, well if Pat says he's cool, then I'm over it. :rolleyes:

[IrisHope]

Swayze, why be so stupid?

[IrisHope]

What I don't understand is how easy people seem to be going on Mel Gibson. If he had said something about black people/Mexicans/women/etc, would there be more of a backlash?

ETA: By people, I mean the news media, etc.

Jennylou, do you really think if he shouted the N bomb nobody would have taken notice? Do you wish people wouldn't come down on Mel for saying that?

[chefker]

What an ass. There goes my copy of Dirty Dancing, in the trash!

[skyblu]

I think Mel's "apology" letter should have been more honest and read:
"I'm really sorry that I screwed up while drunk and possibly brought on the end of my days of Hollywood mega-power. I will now pretend to enlist the "help" of Jewish leaders just so I can furiously back-pedal in a futile attempt to salvage some of my career."

In other words, he's "sorry" that he said it because of the impact on his career, not because he doesn't believe his comments or doesn't really feel negatively towards Jews.

Whatever, Mel. You're so over!

Oh, but wait! Patrick Swayze spoke up to try and save your ass! So *that* makes it all better! Who else would not be surprised to see Patrick Swayze be offered the lead in the next Mel Gibson production?

[MLA]

Jennylou, do you really think if he shouted the N bomb nobody would have taken notice? Do you wish people wouldn't come down on Mel for saying that?

I took JennyLou’s argument to mean that she thought there’d be *more* backlash if he’d said derogatory things about blacks or Hispanics and that she wishes the backlash for saying negative things about Jews would be just as big. I don’t think she meant that the backlash for dropping the “N” bomb should be less.

That said, I think there’s been a pretty big backlash – despite A-listers like Patrick Swayze coming to his defense. :rolleyes:

[IrisHope]

Aha, I reread it! Jenny, I thought you were saying something differently. MLA, thanks for clearing it up!

[Witty Username]

Jennylou, do you really think if he shouted the N bomb nobody would have taken notice? Do you wish people wouldn't come down on Mel for saying that?


I can't speak for Jenny, but I think you misunderstood what she was saying. I think she was wondering why there wasn't more backlash from the media and if there would have been more if he had chosen to spout off about another group.

Now personally, I would prefer it if he received no more airtime and was quietly blacklisted. No more movies, no tv, no speeches or letters with half-assed apologies. Just go away Mel.

*eta- oops, sorry Irishope, I crossposted with MLA.

[jennylou]

Aha, I reread it! Jenny, I thought you were saying something differently. MLA, thanks for clearing it up!

Late to the party, but glad MLA and Wittyusername could clear that up.

I understand Disney yanked some projects from him, but it's still amazing to me the number of people coming to his defense. I just don't understand it. Dr Phil was on Leno (or maybe Letterman) shortly after this happened and they were both defending him.:rolleyes:

[PG-rated]

I think that a lot of people really don't want to believe it, because he was very well-liked before this happened. I can understand that inclination, even if I think it's completely wrong in this case.

[wine_o_girlie]

No doubt Patrick Swayze needs some money and is hoping a little ass kissing will get him a new role in a Mel Gibson production. :rolleyes:

[prudies]

I'm not as bothered by the Patrick Swayze comments as some of you are. I think he just wanted some attention. And in general, I guess I'm just not that upset to see some people defend Mel, because I don't think I can just dismiss him as an anti-semite (though I'm happy to dismiss him because I don't find him that interesting and his movies are shlock). He's nuts, and probably needs some intensive therapy.

This past Sunday's NY Times had an interesting article about whether alcohol is a truth serum. And the answer is, not exactly. Alchohol lowers inhibitions, for sure. But it doesn't mean that Mel Gibson literally believes what he said that night. Some part of him believed what he was saying was wrong and inappropriate, and saying something inappropriate was very attractive to him because he was drunk. Plus whatever nutso relationship he has with the antisemite dad factors in there, I'm sure. The point is that it's not as though he's the leader of the KKK. The head of the KKK probably doesn't say things like that when he's really drunk. He probably says, I want to f Halle Berry! Because that's what's wrong and shameful in his world.

[wendalah]

On a positive note, maybe this WILL help him become more tolerant. There are tons and tons of people who are closeted about anti-semitism. So at least one of them has put himself in a position where he has to face it and fix it.

My (non-practicing Jewish) husband's comment about the whole incident: "He said what everyone thinks. Whatever." This is extreme but he's right to a degree. A lot of people feel this way. It's not a bad thing necessarily to have dialogue about it.

[RileyMom]

This is my first time posting in this thread, but I have to agree with Wendalah. Mel is not the first person on the planet to be anti-semitic. He was just really dumb enough to actually make those remarks, especially being a huge celebrity. You might be surprised at the people who actually share those sentiments. Could be your next door neighbor.

Please note, I am in no way defending him or suggesting he be cut any slack at allf or this, but I have to admit that my first thought was he said oud loud what a lot of people think, but just don't want to admit it. Maybe some good will come out of all this, who knows.

[allyray231]

So it is ok to be openly racist? I should just walk around and say what I want? Especially a public figure?

[prudies]

No, it's not ok. And I definitely think a hefty amount of outrage was warranted! I am just satisfied by the amount I've seen.

I'm troubled by the idea that everyone or lots of people might really feel "the same way." Does that mean a lot of people are antisemitic? More so than we might imagine. I can see that. But large numbers of people think Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world, and the other specific things Mel Gibson said?

I definitely don't feel like, eh, everyone feels just like Mel Gibson. And if they do, it makes me sick.

[RileyMom]

Hmmm...I certainly wasn't saying that at all. :confused:

ETA: Nor was I saying outrage wasn't completely justified. Just saying that maybe the good that will come out of this is some dialogue about the subject. I'm not looking for a fight.

[Secret_Squirrel]

Jodie Foster defends Mel, too.

Foster: Mel Gibson Is Absolutely Not An Anti-Semite

August 6, 2006 6:14 p.m. EST

Komfie Manalo - All Headline News Foreign Correspondent

Los Angeles, CA (AHN) - Hollywood actress Jodie Foster came out to defend beleaguered actor Mel Gibson who was arrested for drink-driving on July 28 and has reportedly uttered anti-Semitic comments during his arrest.

According to BBC, Foster said the actor was "absolutely not" anti-Semite.

In an interview with the Los Angeles Times, Foster has confirmed Gibson "always fought a terrible battle with alcoholism".

She said, "Mel is honest, loyal, kind, but alcoholism has been a lifelong struggle for him and his family.

Foster starred with Gibson in the movie "Maverick."

She adds, "I just wish I had been there, that I had been able to say, 'Don't do it, don't take that drink'."

"He took his recovery very seriously, which is why I know he is strong enough to get through this now."

According to the actress, Gibson's past struggles with alcohol provided "a shining example of how low you can go when you are young and still pull yourself up." She said she believes the actor was not making alcoholism as an excuse for his alleged misbehavior...


http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7004451561

[allyray231]

You might be surprised at the people who actually share those sentiments. Could be your next door neighbor.

Please note, I am in no way defending him or suggesting he be cut any slack at allf or this, but I have to admit that my first thought was he said oud loud what a lot of people think, but just don't want to admit it. Maybe some good will come out of all this, who knows.

Sure lots of people MIGHT feel this way but why does it make it ok that he said it.

My DH (who is a non practicing Jew) was very upset by what he said.

[IrisHope]

Hmmm...I certainly wasn't saying that at all. :confused:

I got that out of what you said as well.

[villanelle75]

I am sure many people feel similarly, though I wouldn't even wager a guess as to what percentage of people make up that “many.” We have no diea when walking around us who hates Jews, even if we know Jew-haters exist. The owner of the little deli where I often buy a sandwich may hate Jews. I don’t know. But once I do know, then I will stop supporting him. That’s the case with MG. Now that I know, I won’t support him.

[RileyMom]

I guess this is a reminder why I don't post in these sorts of threads. I obviously am not stating what I mean. No, its not okay. Yes, I have lost all respect for the man. Yes, I think what he said was horrible and not justified. No, I don't think *everyone* thinks that way, but more do than we want to admit. And yes, I think a dialogue about this subject wouldn't hurt. That's it, there is no more.

[wendalah]

That's just my husband talking, and I said it was an extreme example. Having grown up in a religiously conflicted family he is very matter-of-fact about his Jewishness and how others may perceive it.

[prudies]

Can someone answer my question? Do you think most anti-semitic people just sort of vaguely dislike or distrust Jews, or most people really feel the same sentiments that Mel Gibson expressed, namely that Jews are really responsible for everything bad in the world? I mean, are we talking that loads of people think Jews are cheap and might secretly have horns, or that we really control the media and the world?

ETA: we cross-posted, Wendy. But I'm still curious as to what exactly "people really think."

[wendalah]

I don't think anyone can answer your question, really, as it depends on the individual in question and there is such a widespread range of conceptions about Jews.

[allyray231]

Can someone answer my question? Do you think most anti-semitic people just sort of vaguely dislike or distrust Jews, or most people really feel the same sentiments that Mel Gibson expressed, namely that Jews are really responsible for everything bad in the world? I mean, are we talking that loads of people think Jews are cheap and might secretly have horns, or that we really control the media and the world?





Both I think. I get people who think 1) well since you (DH) are jewish you must have money and 2) because of the jews 9/11 happen, middle east conflit happens, etc.

A lot of people though 9/11 happend because we support the jews.

[villanelle75]

Prudies,
My instinct is that a lot of people think Jews are cheap and other basic anti-Semitic stereotypes. Hell, I had a coworker tell me that our boss is so careful about when expense he approves because he’s a Jew. And she knew I was a Jew when she said it. But I think the people who think Jew’s control the media and are horrible and awful and responsible for everything bad are few and far between.

It’s just like racism against AAs. Lots of people are vaguely distrustful of a black person but if you ask them they would say they think all people are equal and they don’t dislike any race. It’s only a rare few who actually join the KKK, but many people will hold their purse a little closer when a young black man approaches on the sidewalk. .

[prudies]

I guess the idea that there lots of people who crack Jewish jokes or use the occasional slur doesn't totally surprise me. The idea that there are lots of people who think we're the devil does surprise and sadden me.

I've always felt like a bit of an outsider growing up, and I sometimes wonder what exactly I should chalk it up to. Red hair? Weird sense of humor? General nerdiness? Or is it because I'm Jewish (and I grew up in a small town)?

I don't know, it's discussions like this, and discussions I had when POTC came out, that bring that feeling back.

[RileyMom]

I guess the idea that there lots of people who crack Jewish jokes or use the occasional slur doesn't totally surprise me. The idea that there are lots of people who think we're the devil does surprise and sadden me.

I guess it depends on the person, but I often wonder about the person who goes around making racist/religous slurs or cracking "jokes" all the time. I think that is very telling in and of itself. It seems innocent enough on the outside, but I have to wonder where that comes from and what they are really thinking. And I am not just talking about Jewish slurs, really anything that is bigoted/racist etc. I don't think we can exuse those people either.

[ummserious]

Prudies,

My husband saw a documentary for rent at Hollywood Video that was all about how the Jews were responsible for 9/11. Someone filmed and produced this movie and then got a major distribution deal, nice.

I usually guess that all kinds of anti-semitism exist all the way from not knowing any better through to comments like Mel's.

[wander_woman]

I just saw this article and thought it was an interesting sequel to the discussion in this thread.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=entertainmentNews&storyid=2006-09-25T031220Z_01_N24227883_RTRUKOC_0_US-GIBSON.xml&src=rss&rpc=22

Almost two months after he railed against Jews when he was arrested for driving drunk in Malibu, the actor made a surprise appearance Friday at Fantastic Fest, an event in Austin, Texas. ... He presented a work-in-progress screening of his Mayan adventure tale ["Apocalypto"], and then took questions. About one-third of the full house gathered for the film gave him a standing ovation. The film is scheduled for a December 8 release via Disney.

It's been less than 2 months since Mel's drunken anti-semitic remarks and he's already getting standing ovations. I guess I'm just shocked that after all the predictions of his career being over, boycotts, etc., this suggests that he actually seems to be doing OK. I can totally understand the idea of separating the person from the art and appreciating the art for its own sake. That's a whole other issue. I'm just surprised at how quickly the scandal has been forgotten. Maybe this is an isolated instance and I shouldn't read too much into it, but then again, it's not like Austin is a conservative bastion. Memories don't last long, I guess. Especially when you entertain people.