World War IV? (or WWII?) Discuss.

[artist]

An overview on the theory behind that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_IV

Whether you consider the Cold War as a World War or not, I do feel like we are entering another World War. I know I am not the only one who feels this way.

My question is, if this is the case, who are our allies?

Japan? (As Japan is an enemy of N. Korea?)
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world/story.html?id=b73a6515-257e-49cc-abb9-1ad35f5c5313&k=97750

And if that is the case, does that make China our enemy?

China is the North's key ally and is believed able to exert the most influence on Pyongyang. Beijing has also hosted international talks on the North's nuclear program, which haven't convened since November amid a North Korean boycott in anger over U.S. financial restrictions.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/26/world/main1750773.shtml

And does this mean that Venezuela and Russia are our enemies?

VENEZUELA'S President Hugo Chavez has met with leading arms manufacturers in Russia as he shops for weapons to defend his country against a feared US invasion.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/world/venezuela-goes-on-arms-shopping-spree/2006/07/27/1153816320605.html

And I suppose Iran is an enemy. Iraq is an enemy. It seems as though Isreal is an ally. UK is an ally.

Here's something:

If you thought that the latest Middle East crisis is just another in the endless war of Arabs and Jews killing each other, you’re wrong. There is a telltale sign that there is a major new development underlying this bloodshed and mayhem.

http://globalpolitician.com/articledes.asp?ID=1981&cid=2&sid=4

Hezbollah and al Qaeda are known to have cooperated in the past, but it doesn't appear they have worked together closely. The main reason for this is sectarian. Al-Qaeda is mostly made up of Sunni Muslims and Hezbollah is mostly Shiite Muslims. However, in spite of comments above, there is a recent trend for Sunnis and Shiites to cooperate against a common enemy, i.e., the United States and Israel, so don't be surprised if something more turns up. Hezbollah is trying to both destabilize Lebanon's anti-Syrian government and promote itself as a powerful, regional, revolutionary group. Hezbollah seeks influence beyond Lebanon.

Russia also has a stake in this conflict. Russia brought Iran into the SCO and was rewarded by being admitted as an observer into the Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC). Iran is also a major market for Russia and China—both members of the SCO. Both Russia and China are active in investment and weapon supply to Venezuela—a leading member of Mercosur. Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez said on July 14 that U.S. backing of Israel is responsible for flaming tensions in the Middle East and putting the world on course toward another “Holocaust.”

It should be noted that Venezuela is a major oil suppler to the U.S. and through their Citgo, which is wholly-owned by Petróleos de Venezuela. On July 12, Venezuela's state-owned oil refining subsidiary in the U.S. is to halt petrol distribution to about 1,900 filling stations in the U.S., although the company denied on Wednesday the decision was motivated by tensions between Caracas and Washington...Mr Lugar's warning follows the release last month of an investigation by the Government Accountability Office (GAO) which found that the US was ill-prepared for an oil embargo by Venezuela, the world's fifth largest exporter. President Hugo Chávez, whose government has been emboldened by a torrent of oil revenues, has several times warned that he would “cut off” oil supplies to the US if Washington persisted in allegedly plotting his overthrow.


Venezuela and Egypt to Gain Seats on the United Nations Security Council

According to a report on Venezuela Analysis.com on July 19, 2006, Venezuela is being granted observer member status in the Arab League, which is also expected to support Venezuela’s bid for a UN Security Council seat. These two announcements coincide with the second Arab-South American Summit, which took place the week of July 19 in Caracas. These events of the recent weeks give further credibility of the Leftist/Marxist – Islamist Alliance and their control of world oil and other natural resources.


Russia and Iran Challenge OPEC – Russia Leaves the West?

Russia on the one hand is challenging OPEC for oil dominance and simultaneously challenging the hegemony of the U.S. dollar through the oil weapon. These actions merge in the form of Leftist/Marxist – Islamist Alliance. From the Russian perspective, the Saudi role and OPEC model have benefited the United States, which can pressure Saudi Arabia into opening the spigot to deal with supply emergencies; the U.S. also pressures other oil producers, such as Libya, Iraq, Iran, Venezuela, and Indonesia, by military methods, diplomacy, and economic sanctions. In the Russian alternative, the U.S. will be far less influential, and have fewer levers, commercial or military, to effect pressure on the energy suppliers. Russian arms and defense-industry partnerships are on offer to relatively weak, intervention-prone energy producers in Africa and Latin America to offset U.S. pressure.


The Sunnis are active in the terrorism war with bomb attacks on transportation infrastructure in London, Spain, and India. The Bangalesh and Pakistan links are also connected to the terrorist acts in India. Since the last few years, it came to light that ISI and various militant organizations based in Pakistan are using Bangladesh as a transit point for pushing terrorists into India. Indian security agencies have flight details and details of armed training camps in the neighboring country. With the tightening of security on the Pakistan border, export of terror from Bangladesh has become a reality, and the extension of the terror network to other parts of the country is a potential threat to India’s security.

Feel free to post other links, parts of articles, etc.!




-Do you think we are headed for (or already in) a World War?

-Are you at all worried about this? If so, what sort of an impact will this have on Americans? What sort of an impact will this have on other nations?

-Is this inevitable or is it instead potentially avoidable? Explain.

-Do you worry about the impact on future generations?

[Asha]

hmmm...i don't know enough to sound intelligent about it all, but my gut reaction is yes we are headed for a major war.

[artist]

DH is convinced of it. He's being quite pessimisstic about all of this lately. He has even commented that he thinks it would be unwise to have children. :rolleyes: (Not that I'm wanting to do that NOW, but still.) I guess I am scared. Don't really know what the hell I can do about it. I certainly have TRIED protesting against the Iraq war, but it seems like we really are headed for a World War. And honestly, I don't understand what the point of it is. At least with WWII the point seemed to be to put an end to the Holocaust. What would this WW be about? Oil? Islamist/their allies against the West/Christianity? But disguised as a big old war on terror? It just seems so stupid to me.

[Asha]

I don't understand what the point of it is.
money and religion

i disagree that wwII was all about the holocaust. the u.s. did not get involved in wwII bc they wanted to help the jewish people. we got involved bc we were attacked by the japanese.

quite frankly, something should have been done about the radical islamists a long time ago. no one cares about the fact that they stone women who have been raped in pakistan. no one cared that girls were not allowed to attend school in afghanistan. no one cares that women are allowed to be beaten by their husbands in these countries. no one seems to be concerened that they breed children to hate and train little boys to fight in wars. they have been terrorizing half of their own population for a long time and no one seemed to care until they started to terrorize us.

i hate war, but i don't know a peaceful solution to this at all.

[artist]

money and religion

i disagree that wwII was all about the holocaust. the u.s. did not get involved in wwII bc they wanted to help the jewish people. we got involved bc we were attacked by the japanese.

True.

But at least we can tell ourselves that was the point. Despite whatever reasons we got involved, I AM glad we did even though I wish we didn't nuke Japan.

[artist]

If it is true that we get a lot of our oil from Venezuela, and if they end up being our enemy and limit what they export to us, I wonder if we as Americans would have to ration our gasoline useage?

[MLA]

money and religion

i disagree that wwII was all about the holocaust. the u.s. did not get involved in wwII bc they wanted to help the jewish people. we got involved bc we were attacked by the japanese.


That's absolutely right. There was a nice by-product of the war that we managed to rid the world of a terribly frightening and evil man, but we didn't get into it to save Jewish people an other persecuted minorities -- and neither did the rest of Europe.

I'm not really sure how I feel about where we're headed. I wonder if we get a more level-headed administration in place, we'll be able to alleviate some of the craziness we've caused in the Middle East. I don't know if it's too late for that, though.

If we're headed into a huge world war, it will, indeed, be about money and oil and religion. But I think that what it should be about is keeping despotic theocracies from becoming the norm. Unfortunately, this country seems to have turned in that direction, so I'm not sure who's side we'd really be on. I'm just hoping that we can get ourselves centered again.

[MLA]

If it is true that we get a lot of our oil from Venezuela, and if they end up being our enemy and limit what they export to us, I wonder if we as Americans would have to ration our gasoline useage?

I think that could be a good thing -- we need to be rationing our gasoline usage, and we need to be looking into alternative sources of power.

[artist]

I'm not really sure how I feel about where we're headed. I wonder if we get a more level-headed administration in place, we'll be able to alleviate some of the craziness we've caused in the Middle East. I don't know if it's too late for that, though.


That would be the hope of course. Bush has managed to do a great job of pissing off the rest of the world. But I fear two more years is two years too late. If we're headed towards a World War, I think by 2008 we'll be in the midst of it. Though I suppose a level-headed leader might at least have some more diplomatic approaches of what to do next.

[Asha]

we'll be able to alleviate some of the craziness we've caused in the Middle East.

you think it was normal there before?

[artist]

I think that could be a good thing -- we need to be rationing our gasoline usage, and we need to be looking into alternative sources of power.

Perhaps that would like you say have some positive outcomes. However, what effect will this have on things like the economy, jobs, etc.? Will other things be rationed too?

[artist]

you think it was normal there before?

True. However I do agree that we have caused or at least contributed to some of it.

[Asha]

i agree that it has not been handled well at all. i also resent that we were lied to as to why this whole thing needed to be started.

[Asha]

this may sound extreme, but where is the best place to stay in your house if there is bombing? i mean we were all taught in school where to stay in your house during an earthquake, but they don't teach us what to do during an attack. in israel, they have bomb shelters, but there aren't any near me.

[artist]

artist Quote:
Originally Posted by MLA
I think that could be a good thing -- we need to be rationing our gasoline usage, and we need to be looking into alternative sources of power.


Perhaps that would like you say have some positive outcomes. However, what effect will this have on things like the economy, jobs, etc.? Will other things be rationed too?

To add to what I was saying though for example, although using less gasoline would be a positive thing, do you think this would have an effect on other resources? For example, food, products, pretty much a lot of what we consume (necessities AND luxuries) being delivered by big rig semi-trucks? How about the travel industry and fuel for airplanes? (Not to mention fuel for cars who might be vacationing?) How does this affect other industries such as the hotel or tourist industry? What about other luxury items or businesses? In times of war sometimes people find it too frivolous or wasteful to spend on things that are not considered "necessary". If all of these things are potentially affected, what will this do for jobs/employment? Also, what about the fact that already we spend so many tax dollars on war/the military...how much would a World War cost? Do we have enough soldiers? Would we need to have a draft?

[artist]

this may sound extreme, but where is the best place to stay in your house if there is bombing? i mean we were all taught in school where to stay in your house during an earthquake, but they don't teach us what to do during an attack. in israel, they have bomb shelters, but there aren't any near me.

I have no idea, but if they use nukes, I think I'll just hope/plan to be in a downtown area of a city so that I can vaporize instantly. I may even try to jump up so my shadow ends up on a building. Sorry to sound so morbid, but I'd rather go that way as opposed to being the last person left covered in boils and dying a slow and painful death of cancer, running around with a wheelbarrel filled with coins. In that case I'll go to the nearest WalMart (yep, I would go to WalMart in that case), buy a shotgun (yep, me the anti-gun person) and do myself in!

[MLA]

you think it was normal there before?

Hell no, but I think we've stoked the fires.

[MLA]

To add to what I was saying though for example, although using less gasoline would be a positive thing, do you think this would have an effect on other resources? For example, food, products, pretty much a lot of what we consume (necessities AND luxuries) being delivered by big rig semi-trucks? How about the travel industry and fuel for airplanes? (Not to mention fuel for cars who might be vacationing?) How does this affect other industries such as the hotel or tourist industry? What about other luxury items or businesses? In times of war sometimes people find it too frivolous or wasteful to spend on things that are not considered "necessary". If all of these things are potentially affected, what will this do for jobs/employment? Also, what about the fact that already we spend so many tax dollars on war/the military...how much would a World War cost? Do we have enough soldiers? Would we need to have a draft?


You're absolutely right in terms of the larger costs. I think it would force us to start looking at other ways to deal with our power needs, though, which *in the long run* would be good. And we may be talking about the VERY long run.

******************
I'm not generally an alarmist, but you know, when I left Los Angeles, I breathed a sigh of relief because I felt like it was only a matter of time before the city was hit by terrorists, and I worked in some important landmarks there. I'm glad I'm in a less populated area now.

[Asha]

I'm not generally an alarmist, but you know, when I left Los Angeles, I breathed a sigh of relief because I felt like it was only a matter of time before the city was hit by terrorists, and I worked in some important landmarks there. I'm glad I'm in a less populated area now.

its one of the reasons we want to get out of nyc. we live in a relatively isolated area of the city, but i go to school across the street from a major landmark.

[MLA]

its one of the reasons we want to get out of nyc. we live in a relatively isolated area of the city, but i go to school across the street from a major landmark.

Yeah. We never actually said it was a reason for us leaving, but it was definitely in the back of my head. Going to work at the Hollywood Bowl on the morning of September 11th was scary. I didn't like that feeling one bit. Another really great benefit of leaving a major city is lower cost of living. Raleigh-Durham is like a Shangri-lah in terms of housing costs. Our quality of life has sky-rocketed since leaving L.A.

[ysolde]

I have no idea, but if they use nukes, I think I'll just hope/plan to be in a downtown area of a city so that I can vaporize instantly. I may even try to jump up so my shadow ends up on a building. Sorry to sound so morbid, but I'd rather go that way as opposed to being the last person left covered in boils and dying a slow and painful death of cancer, running around with a wheelbarrel filled with coins. In that case I'll go to the nearest WalMart (yep, I would go to WalMart in that case), buy a shotgun (yep, me the anti-gun person) and do myself in!

Please pardon me for being so morbid, but I have had this conversation with DH. I told him that, in case of nuclear attack, my plan is to kill my cats painlessly (sleeping pills), then cuddle up with them and kill myself with an OD of sleeping pills and barbiturates. He is totally against this, thinking we could survive. For what? Losing our hair, losing our skin, puking our guts out for weeks, having bloody diarrhea, and dying of radiation poisoning, if we are lucky? May the Almighty forgive me, but I do not want to survive a nuclear attack, nor do I want to leave my kitties to die a horrible death.

[katmg]

Please pardon me for being so morbid, but I have had this conversation with DH. I told him that, in case of nuclear attack, my plan is to kill my cats painlessly (sleeping pills), then cuddle up with them and kill myself with an OD of sleeping pills and barbiturates. He is totally against this, thinking we could survive. For what? Losing our hair, losing our skin, puking our guts out for weeks, having bloody diarrhea, and dying of radiation poisoning, if we are lucky? May the Almighty forgive me, but I do not want to survive a nuclear attack, nor do I want to leave my kitties to die a horrible death.

I remember talking about nuclear war with my parents and my dad saying that he was glad that we lived close enough to downtown Houston that we would probably be vaporized immediately. I guess he figured that with the port, NASA and all the oil companies here that we would be a pretty good target. I remember thinking that was awful, but it is definitely a hell of a lot better than "surviving" a nuclear attack.

I have not read all the articles, Sorry artist! but I am worried that it seems like our world is coming closer and closer to the boiling point. In some cases, we are certainly over the boiling point.

If we do have another World War, do you think that the US will come out of it stronger or weaker? Everyone talks about WWII and how good it was for our economy. Do you think the same thing could happen again?

[em1126]

That would be the hope of course. Bush has managed to do a great job of pissing off the rest of the world.

ITA. I don't think we'd find too many countries on "our" side. Even America itself is so divided right now. And I think everything's going to get a lot worse before (if?) it gets better. I hope 2008 isn't too late.

[Asha]

yes, a lot of countries don't support the u.s.' war in iraq, but i think it would be completely different if it came to a world war. i don't see western europe allying with any radical islamic country or china in a world war.

[MLA]

I'm curious about how far away from a blast is safe. In other words, if Los Angeles were hit with nuclear weapons, how far away would you have to be to avoid the fallout? Would the radiation effect people as far away as San Francisco? Or is it a lot more localized than that?

I don't mean to sound stupid, I just don't really know and am curious.

[thyme]

It depends on the size of the blast, the time of day, and the weather conditions, I believe. I used to have a job where there were vector projections of that kind of thing around. Unfortunately, I'm on the east coast, so I never really paid that much attention to the CA mapping. There's probably someone here who knows more about it than me.

[ysolde]

I think we are living in really dangereous times. It does bring to mind the era just prior to WWI. The old "empires" are dead or dying, religious and nationalist extremists are staging terrorist attacks in parts of the world most of the West prefers not to think about, but which have strategic and economic importance. We do not think that old alliances are going to be called upon, so we think regional conflicts will remain regional. The question is, will they? Will Israel ask for our help, and will we give it, or does Israel think that US involvement will only make the situation worse (I honestly don't know the answer to any part of this question)? Certainly, if any of the nations that have stated that they want to push Israel "into the sea" make a move into Israel, and Israel cannot defend itself, I think we will owe it to Israel, the only representative republic in the Middle East, and our staunchest ally in the region, a serious helping hand. Not to mention the fact that the UN Charter demands that we (and all other nations called upon to defend Israel) do so, if it is attacked and cannot defend itself. Potential powderkeg, no?

Will one of our NATO allies be attacked (it's all for one and one for all under NATO), and will THAT trigger a world war?

Since Pyongyang seems all too happy to lob bombs in Japan's direction, I wonder how long the rest of Asia will let them get away with that? Certainly, Japan has few friends in Asia, but will China allow North Korea to become a nuclear power? How much influence does Russia have in Asia (or anywhere) these days?

And has anyone noticed that entire regions of Africa are falling apart? With the highest HIV rates in the world, genocide, and civil wars, how long before the conflicts there start to spread northward?

Yes, I am nervous, to say the least. Call it what you will, but the world has destabilized, and I am fairly certain this is not going anywhere good.

Yes, I am nervous.

[MLA]

It depends on the size of the blast, the time of day, and the weather conditions, I believe. I used to have a job where there were vector projections of that kind of thing around. Unfortunately, I'm on the east coast, so I never really paid that much attention to the CA mapping. There's probably someone here who knows more about it than me.

I just used California as an example. If you know anything about the radius of fall out from a big blast in miles, for example, I'd be interested to hear about it.

[young lioness]

If we do have another World War, do you think that the US will come out of it stronger or weaker? Everyone talks about WWII and how good it was for our economy. Do you think the same thing could happen again?

It would depend on how the war would turn out. I think the reasons WWII was good for the US economy was that we won, we didn't have any major bombing or destruction in our country (aside from Hawaii), and the huge influx of returning soldiers spured the economy (baby boom, suburban expansion, etc.). If we would have any large attack on American soil or have massive casualties abroad (losing a significant part of a generation) I think it could really REALLY hurt our economy.

[karlatta]

I'm curious about how far away from a blast is safe. In other words, if Los Angeles were hit with nuclear weapons, how far away would you have to be to avoid the fallout? Would the radiation effect people as far away as San Francisco? Or is it a lot more localized than that?
My DH works in emergency response and deals a lot with vector projections of different kinds of stuff - mostly gasses from explosions and stuff. From what I've seen of his work, there's no real way to know where would be considered safe - wind, weather, the location of other blasts, terrain, etc. would all impact where the fallout traveled.

[Anna Low]

Please pardon me for being so morbid, but I have had this conversation with DH. I told him that, in case of nuclear attack, my plan is to kill my cats painlessly (sleeping pills), then cuddle up with them and kill myself with an OD of sleeping pills and barbiturates. He is totally against this, thinking we could survive. For what? Losing our hair, losing our skin, puking our guts out for weeks, having bloody diarrhea, and dying of radiation poisoning, if we are lucky? May the Almighty forgive me, but I do not want to survive a nuclear attack, nor do I want to leave my kitties to die a horrible death.

There was a movie/mini-series several years ago that starred Armand Assante about how the whole world was being slowly poisoned by nuclear radiation. Australia was the last "safe" place and it was slowly being overcome. Don't know the name. It was the most frightening movie I have ever seen. Why, because I feel like something similar is so close to reality.

[artist]

I talked to my mom on the phone recently and asked her if she thought we were entering another World War. She asked me if I had been listening to Newt Gingrich who apparently predicted the same thing, and then she talked about how disgusted she was with him. She does not think we are headed for a World War.

I still do, but I wanted to clarify that my belief and reason for starting this thread have nothing to do with Newt Gingrich!

[MLA]

I still do, but I wanted to clarify that my belief and reason for starting this thread have nothing to do with Newt Gingrich!


Whatever. I know you're a closet Newt Gingrich fan. You can't hide, anymore!

[artist]

Whatever. I know you're a closet Newt Gingrich fan. You can't hide, anymore!

:D

Shoot! How did you guess?

[skraus75]

Whatever. I know you're a closet Newt Gingrich fan. You can't hide, anymore!

HA!! I was thinking the same thing! ;)

[MLA]

:D

Shoot! How did you guess?

Denial, baby. Denial. The more you deny it, the more I know it's true. You've got to get better about playing it cool. :p

[artist]

Am I one of those people who could potentially go so far left I would end up right-wing? :D (I'd be willing to bet a million dollars I'd never go Republican! Just like I'd be willing to bet about the same amount LMC would never go Democrat. But I could see Wendy voting for a Democratic within the next 20 years! :D )

ETA:
Especially if it were Wendy's DH running for office. Heck, I don't know him, but I'd maybe vote for him!

[Rico'sAlice]

There was a movie/mini-series several years ago that starred Armand Assante about how the whole world was being slowly poisoned by nuclear radiation. Australia was the last "safe" place and it was slowly being overcome. Don't know the name. It was the most frightening movie I have ever seen. Why, because I feel like something similar is so close to reality.


There is another movie, I think from the early eighties called The Day After It shows the really long drawn out effects of the radiation poisoning. Absolutely terrifying, sickening, and heartbreaking.

[ysolde]

The movie Anna Low is thinking of is called On the Beach. It was made for Showtime, and was a remake of a 1950's classic of the same name. Both are harrowing, though the more recent version was more graphic in showing the effects of radiation poisoning. In the story, because the Australian government has time to realize what is going to happen, people are issued pills with which to commit suicide (and to kill their infants and pets), so that they may die a peaceful death, rather than succumb to the effects of radiation poisoning.

[Julss05]

-Do you think we are headed for (or already in) a World War? Could be, too soon to tell, I don't feel we are in one quite yet.

-Are you at all worried about this? If so, what sort of an impact will this have on Americans? What sort of an impact will this have on other nations? I am worried. Hopefully we will come out okay if it happens but it's hard to say even though we are a strong country.

-Is this inevitable or is it instead potentially avoidable? Explain. I think a WW is avoidable still given the current situation with various battles as long as a few countries being at odds with each other doesn't explode to numerous countries being involved.

-Do you worry about the impact on future generations? Of course. I believe as much as we all want peace, all over the world at the same time it is impossible. There will always be conflict and war which seems to get worse before it gets better if you compare it to the past with long lasting affects.
__________________

I've been married to the military life so to speak for the past 10 years as a spouse and I've seen conflicts become more intense and rapid so it does seem like we are headed towards one. I don't believe we are in another WW but we could be on the brink of one. I was recently vacationing out west and all of a sudden heard an air raid alarm for practice only but it scared the crap out of me!:eek: I have nightmares of our area in particular being attacked like Peal Harbor because we are surrounded by military bases but at the same time feel safe, because I have complete faith in our soldiers doing all they can to protect us and doing it well. At any rate if we do find ourselves in another WW I'm sure we will come out of just like we have with the others.

[artist]

My mom does NOT thinking we are headed towards a WW, but she thinks if there is another WW the planet will be destroyed.

Cheerful.

[chefker]

My mom does NOT thinking we are headed towards a WW, but she thinks if there is another WW the planet will be destroyed.





If we don't destroy the planet by means of a war, then we will do so via global warming. :(

Things are seriously getting scarier in the world. Almost makes me think I shouldn't have had a kid. Definitely makes me question whether or not I should have another one.

The possibility of nukes on our shores frightens me. Our house is actually equipped with an old bomb shelter, but it wouldn't protect us against radiation, since it's not an underground bunkers. I used to think people who HAD underground bunkers were part of the lunatic fringe...but nowadays, you wonder if it isn't such a bad idea to have one!

Oh, and to answer the OP--I think we may very well be on the brink of WW3 (or WW4 if you count the Cold War in that list).