Criminalize smoking for pregnant women?

[lawyerlee]

I'm curious to hear what you guys think about the idea of criminalizing smoking by pregnant women.

Here are a couple of articles on the topic:

Blaming Pregnant Women (http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t&ct=us/0-0&fp=44bddefcacffadbf&ei=hx29RKLOJaWSad6g6eEN&url=http%3A//www.tompaine.com/articles/2006/07/17/blaming_pregnant_women.php&cid=1108031360)

New wave of 'fetal protectionism' decried (http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/living/health/15003635.htm)

Obviously smoking is bad for you and bad for developing babies. But is it going too far to make it a crime to choose to smoke if you're pregnant? I'm pretty torn about this. I think a lot of things should be up to individuals to decide. But the negative health effects for both moms and babies are shouldered by all of us through the insurance system or public assistance.

[MLA]

I think that's discriminatory. If you're going to criminalize it for pregnant women, then you should criminalize it for everyone. The issue of society having to pay for the harm to a fetus is no different than the issue of society having to pay for the harm caused to an adult.

What's next? Criminalize smoking for all women of child-bearing age because they could be considered "pre-pregnant"?

Personally, I'd like to see smoking outlawed in all public places, but I don't think outlawing smoking completely would do any good. And in this case it's worse than doing no good -- it's discrimination.

[eli1126]

As much as I dislike smoking in general, I don't believe making this a law is practical. It's not going to stop pg woman from doing it and it will be difficult to enforce.

Beth

[lawyerlee]

Personally, I'd like to see smoking outlawed in all public places, but I don't think outlawing smoking completely would do any good.
I agree. We have a smoking ban in my town, and I love it. I'm so spoiled by it that I'm caught off guard by the smoking or non-smoking question when I go to restaurants elsewhere!

I think you make a good point about discrimination.

[lawyerlee]

it will be difficult to enforce.
Definitely. You can't necessarily tell someone is pregnant just by looking.

[MLA]

I agree. We have a smoking ban in my town, and I love it. I'm so spoiled by it that I'm caught off guard by the smoking or non-smoking question when I go to restaurants elsewhere!



*Sigh* I miss my Los Angeles days -- no smoking allowed ANYWHERE -- not even in bars, not even in outdoor venues. It was heavenly! Moving to NC has been a bit of a shock to the system for me. Luckily a lot of places have voluntarily banned smoking, which is nice, but I get totally weirded out by the "smoking or non-smoking" question in restaurants that haven't.

[Dally]

Washington recently banned smoking from public places, and it's so nice.

I'm torn on this issue. I want to protect the fetus, but I don't think this law is practical. How do you enforce it? What if the mother smokes before she knows she is pregnant? What if she is planning to get an abortion?

And what if she is around second-hand smoke? Would that also be criminal?

[greenbunny]

I can't help but think this is just a beat-around-the-bush way of taking away more and more maternal rights in order to eventually overturn Roe vs. Wade.

[ysolde]

Maybe we should jsut imprison all pregnant women, to ensure they don't do anything that might endanger their zygote/embryo/fetus.

[MLA]

Maybe we should jsut imprison all pregnant women, to ensure they don't do anything that might endanger their zygote/embryo/fetus.


Now you're talking! While we're at it, let's put all women of child-bearing age on house arrest (until they're pregnant - and then it's right into jail for them!).

Are these sorts of ideas actually viable? Do you think a bill like this would actually pass?

[ysolde]

Now you're talking! While we're at it, let's put all women of child-bearing age on house arrest (until they're pregnant - and then it's right into jail for them!).

Are these sorts of ideas actually viable? Do you think a bill like this would actually pass?

It's the kind of thing that gets a lot of publicity, then gets quietly withdrawn. Remember the state bill to investigate all miscarriages (where was that, VA?)? THAT one got withdrawn in fairly short order, given how outraged women around the country became. :rolleyes:

[Rose]

I am torn too. It's not fair for the fetus but I don't see how it would be enforced. I think instead more money should be spent on educating women on the effects that smoking will cause their baby.

[tenofcups]

Oh, I absolutely think we should criminalize it. Along with alcohol, caffeine, unpasteurized cheese, certain fishes, high levels of stress, and so on. Let's make it ALL illegal for a pregnant woman.

[LDS Angel 19]

I think smoking should be banned for everyone, period. That would be easier to enforce.

[ysolde]

Oh, I absolutely think we should criminalize it. Along with alcohol, caffeine, unpasteurized cheese, certain fishes, high levels of stress, and so on. Let's make it ALL illegal for a pregnant woman.

In fact, let's make it all illegal for all sexually active women of childbearing age. After all, you never know. :D

[ysolde]

Oooh, and let's pass a law making all pregnant women wear a big scarlet "P" embroidered on all their clothing, just so we know who they are at all times. We have to be able to easily identify the pregnant ones, you know, for the protection of the z/e/fs.

[MLA]

In fact, let's make it all illegal for all sexually active women of childbearing age. After all, you never know. :D

Why only sexually active women? I mean, there are all those stories about getting pregnant from sitting on the wrong toilet seat . . .

[ysolde]

Why only sexually active women? I mean, there are all those stories about getting pregnant from sitting on the wrong toilet seat . . .

Well, if sexually active women are NOT getting pregnant, don't we need to investigate? Hmmm? I mean, haven't you read The Handmaid's Tale?

[artist]

I think there are already too many anti-smoking laws. I also completely disagree with the notion of the government trying to decide for a woman what she can or cannot do with her body.

Obviously it is dumb for a pregnant woman to smoke or drink or smoke crack or eat lead paint or roll around in cat poo. But I disagree with laws about such things. (With the exception of course for crack being illegal not just for pregnant women, but for people in general.)

If you outlaw pregnant women smoking, then outlaw anyone smoking within 100 feet of a pregant woman as secondhand smoke is bad too. Oh wait, how do we know if a particular woman might be pregnant?

Anyway, it sounds like a really dumb and unnecessary law and I completely oppose it. Let people choose things based on their own common sense.

[artist]

I think smoking should be banned for everyone, period. That would be easier to enforce.

I'm sorry, but that is just dumb. As an adult, I can make my own damn choice as to whether or not I would like to smoke.

Along that line of thinking, let's also outlaw any and all liquor (including cough syrup) to absolutely anyone and everyone. Why? Well, liquor is bad for you, bad for pregnant women, is dangerous in combination with driving, etc. So let's just outlaw it! Outlawing and banning things does NOT make them go away. Drinking never went away during prohibition days. Abortion didn't go away when it was outlawed. It still happened, it was just more dangerous.

[Asha]

no, the effects of prison and a criminal record on the mother and future child would prob. be greater than the effects of smoking.

[thelittlebabu]

Oooh, and let's pass a law making all pregnant women wear a big scarlet "P" embroidered on all their clothing, just so we know who they are at all times. We have to be able to easily identify the pregnant ones, you know, for the protection of the z/e/fs.
Scarlet letters are sooooo....Salem? I say aqua or lavender. Let's get this fashion statement into the 21st century please.

[kazata]

No. But we should criminalize smoking around pregnant women. And since you can't tell if a woman is pregnant, nobody should be allowed to smoke around me. Hey, it would make me happy. ;)

[PinkMartini]

No. But we should criminalize smoking around pregnant women. And since you can't tell if a woman is pregnant, nobody should be allowed to smoke around me. Hey, it would make me happy. ;)

LoL

Makes me glad I live in Ca where smoking in public is completely banned :)

[KrissyCat7]

I think that's discriminatory. If you're going to criminalize it for pregnant women, then you should criminalize it for everyone ITA.

Im still suprised that so many people smoke when they know the risks.

[coquelicot]

No. But we should criminalize smoking around pregnant women. And since you can't tell if a woman is pregnant, nobody should be allowed to smoke around me. Hey, it would make me happy. ;)
Same here!

I would support such a law, but like many of you, I don't think it would be enforceable. Unfortunately, it's not a crime to do a lot of dumb things.

[looch]

I'm sorry, but that is just dumb. As an adult, I can make my own damn choice as to whether or not I would like to smoke.


Yes, I agree that adults can make the choice as to whether they want to smoke or not, but, did you have to say that it was dumb? Just because it isn't your opinion doesn't mean it is dumb.

As far as adults making their own decisions, my MIL says she will never quit smoking and that I shouldn't believe anything that I read about the ill effects of smoking because there is no proof. So, not all adults are competent enough to make a decision based on the copious amounts of information that's available today.

[artist]

Okay, sorry for saying it was "dumb". I guess that was mean.

But I still think adults should be able to make their own decision about things like whether or not to smoke even if it's unhealthy and there's tons of evidence saying so.

[kimbyj]

I don't agree with this becoming a law. There are too many other variables that I think need to be considered. For example, I take Rx class C drugs basically to live (lung diseases). Some doctors have told me to stop if I get pregnant others have said it's fine. What about eating sushi? Un pasteurized cheese? Too much fish with mercury? All these other things that would frighten me if I were pregnant.

I didn't read the related articles so I don't know if they mentioned the fact that many doctors suggest that women who are heavy smokers NOT quit smoking once they realize they are pregnant b/c that can cause withdrawl and also affect their pregnancy. Has anyone else heard this? And, what about women like Gweneth Paltrow who drank beer after the first trimester?

Along that line of thinking, let's also outlaw any and all liquor (including cough syrup) to absolutely anyone and everyone. Why? Well, liquor is bad for you, bad for pregnant women, is dangerous in combination with driving, etc. So let's just outlaw it! Outlawing and banning things does NOT make them go away. Drinking never went away during prohibition days. Abortion didn't go away when it was outlawed. It still happened, it was just more dangerous.

As an aside, my CVS has a new sign posted that they will sell something like no more than 3 grams of that ingredient (I never recall the name) found in sudafed a day. Do they think that all people are either sniffing it with thier kids or using it to make other drugs???

[kris97]

While I understand the opposition to such legislation (and, in fact, agree with ithat viewpoint), I think some of the responses overlook the complicated nature of the question. Respectfully, I think the Government has a very valid interest in promoting fetal health and development. (If it didn't, then why encourage or fund prenatal care?) The more problematic question is how to balance the need to promote fetal health with the individual rights of pregnant women. It's the same question implicated by the abortion debate, and one that I don't think has an easy answer. Given the difficulties, I'd urge greater emphasis on education and incentives to encourage healthy prenatal behavior rather than banning smoking. But I do think it's entirely valid to be concerned about the issue, even if that interest conflicts, broadly, with the autonomy of individual women.

[dionysia]

Oh, I absolutely think we should criminalize it. Along with alcohol, caffeine, unpasteurized cheese, certain fishes, high levels of stress, and so on. Let's make it ALL illegal for a pregnant woman.Ruh roh.

I had 1/2 glass of wine last month, a cup of caffeinated coffee probably once a week, feta cheese (though pasteurized, it's still a soft cheese!), a piece of tuna maki roll a few months ago, and I'm still working.

I guess I should turn myself in right now.

:rolleyes:

/sarcasm

Di

[Delta]

Extremely disturbing. Are we going to make it a crime for pregnant women to drink alcohol next? Then caffeine? :rolleyes:

[Esq.]

I would be going to jail then, Delta. I drink caffeine every day. I really really tried to stop completely, but it is not possible. I do keep it to under 300 mgs per day though (which is actually quite a lot of caffeine).

Throw me in jail with Di too. I eat soft cheese. I would rather be shot in the head than go without them. They are all pastuerized, so they are safe, but that distinction is often not made by doctors. I also ate sushi about a month ago. Just California rolls, but still...I should definitely be punished for makng an informed decision to eat sushi when I knew that it has a minute chance of harming my baby.

This is what this law would be opening hte door to. It is a thinkly veiled attempt to further curtail the reproductive and daily rights of women.

[Delta]

Shoot, this time around I don't follow any of the rules. I have coffee and coke when I want it and I have wine when I want it. Same goes for soft cheese and sandwich meat.

[Esq.]

Then you can share a cell with me and Di. We can create a gang or something. :)

[msnicolea]

Well, aren't we all "pre-pregnant" anyway? Why not just make it illegal for ALL women, since we're in a constant state of preparing to conceive!

What nonsense.

[Jaycee]

Di, Kyrsten, and Delta, I did all those things and my baby ended up just fine :)

Now as far as smoking while pregnant. While I think it's a really bad idea, and a mother should think of the health reprucussions of her unborn baby before her own needs. I don't think that the government should be outlawing it. The government should be worrying about our country, and not what each individual does with their body. If societal pressures and personal demons aren't enough, then I have just one word. Darwinism.

[artist]

As an aside, my CVS has a new sign posted that they will sell something like no more than 3 grams of that ingredient (I never recall the name) found in sudafed a day. Do they think that all people are either sniffing it with thier kids or using it to make other drugs???

As much as I think meth is absolutely disgusting, I am rather annoyed that the pharmacist basically has to get my damn fingerprints so I can have some pills to help with my allergies. My lord, do I LOOK like someone who would cook meth? I saw an article in my local paper yesterday about how although the meth cooking is down (due to making it difficult to buy Sudafed), apparently thefts for things like copper are on the rise as some meth addicts are now trading copper in at recycle centers. I guess they are stealing it from contractors and cutting it right out of brand new homes being constructed. So, making Sudafed isn't necessarily solving the drug problem. It's just creating different problems. People will still get their meth, but it might come from overseas. Don't get me wrong, I don't want people in my neighborhood cooking meth for obvious reasons. I just think the issue is a lot more complicated then whether or not people are able to buy Sudafed.

[MLA]

Artist -- clearly you're in denial about your meth addiction. You need some help. ;)

I say no Sudafed for pregnant or pre-pregnant women, either!

[Jaycee]

although the meth cooking is down (due to making it difficult to buy Sudafed), apparently thefts for things like copper are on the rise as some meth addicts are now trading copper in at recycle centers.
I think the days of the penny as we knew it are over! :D

[artist]

Extremely disturbing. Are we going to make it a crime for pregnant women to drink alcohol next? Then caffeine? :rolleyes:

Delta,

Hey! We agree on something!


Actually, it's interesting because as much as I disagree with my conservative friends on so many different issues, I often find that we agree sometimes on things like smoking and drugs. For example, (and I don't have a clue what your belief is on this) I tend to think we ought to just legalize drugs, prostitution, etc. Not that I agree with those things, but I like the idea of regulating it and realizing that drugs and prostitution are never going away. Making things illegal sometimes makes problems worse. A black market or underground version of something can often be even more dangerous. I figure for example, let people do rehab or course, but for those who just won't, let's give them their drugs. Let them line up for drug needles. Perhaps crime would actually go down as the drugs would not be illegal, and perhaps they would be either free or low cost so that there would be no need to commit crimes in order to afford the various drugs. There would be no drug dealers. The drug dealers would be the government. Anyway, I think my beliefs about this are very unpopular. I used to be of the mindset to just outlaw things and then they might go away. But then I got to thinking about it and completely changed my mind. A few Republicans I know agree with me on this which surprised me. Maybe it's more of a Libertarian belief? I do think it's perhaps a bit of a Green Party belief. But very few of my Democrat friends agree with me on this one. It's too radical, too out there. But my whole thought is that I am very much about freedom of choice. Not just on the abortion issue, but on other issues. I also am very into the idea of privacy rights. I do of course think it is completely stupid for a pregnant woman to smoke, but really, is it MY place to tell her not to? Some would say yes, I say no.

[artist]

Artist -- clearly you're in denial about your meth addiction. You need some help. ;)

I say no Sudafed for pregnant or pre-pregnant women, either!

:D

Oh yeah! I cook it all the time at home!

[Asha]

I am rather annoyed that the pharmacist

they're just doing their jobs. believe me they find it just as annoying as it just adds to their workload bc they have to deal with more complaints from customers. i once watched a 30 minute argument my dh had with this 60 year old lady about her going over her quota of sudafed. the stupid thing is that the system is not centralized, so it only shows how much you have purchased at that store (ie it is centralized btwn all the cvs, but you can go from cvs to walgreens to get more sudafed.). the pharmacist would probably get fired and lose his license if he didn't follow that law.

[t3h_wookiee]

Oklahoma has had a law in place about the selling of pseudoephedrine for a few years now, and it has drastically cut down on the number of meth labs and such here. Something like 70%. I think it's worthwhile. While it can be a pain in the butt during allergy season (because all of those products are now only available through the pharmacy window, not on the shelves), it's proved that it works. I'll deal with waiting in line if it means a few less meth addicts around.

[artist]

they're just doing their jobs. believe me they find it just as annoying as it just adds to their workload bc they have to deal with more complaints from customers. i once watched a 30 minute argument my dh had with this 60 year old lady about her going over her quota of sudafed. the stupid thing is that the system is not centralized, so it only shows how much you have purchased at that store (ie it is centralized btwn all the cvs, but you can go from cvs to walgreens to get more sudafed.). the pharmacist would probably get fired and lose his license if he didn't follow that law.

:)

I probably should have phrased that better. You are absolutely right that the pharmacist is just doing his/her job. I also would not argue for 30 minutes about something so trivial as Sudafed. I am annoyed by the laws though, but I guess people feel secure that it's actually solving the drug problem. Maybe I'm just cynical in thinking it's not.

Though, on the whole pharmacist thing, I HAVE gotten mad when the pharmacist insisted I was wrong about my co-payment on a drug. She thought I had to pay almost full price on it despite the card clearly saying $20for generic and $40 for non-generic. I was in fact correct on that and had to have the manager figure it out.

[artist]

I'll deal with waiting in line if it means a few less meth addicts around.

But see, I disagree that simply making Sudafed more difficult to buy equates to less meth addicts around.

They CAN still buy meth, only it comes from overseas or other countries I guess.

There WILL still be OTHER problems with crime, etc. regardless of the Sudafed being available.

It only costs a meth addict $20 to get high, and the high lasts for 2 weeks! (Hey, that's cheaper than those evil cigarettes that those pregnant women are smoking!)

To me this is simply a band-aid solution. What about treatment or rehab for these people for example?

[t3h_wookiee]

:)

I probably should have phrased that better. You are absolutely right that the pharmacist is just doing his/her job. I also would not argue for 30 minutes about something so trivial as Sudafed. I am annoyed by the laws though, but I guess people feel secure that it's actually solving the drug problem. Maybe I'm just cynical in thinking it's not.


It is working here in Oklahoma. So it may be that you're cynical, or maybe it's not working as well elsewhere.

[artist]

It is working here in Oklahoma. So it may be that you're cynical, or maybe it's not working as well elsewhere.

I do think it's working perhaps to cut down on the meth LABS and meth COOKING, but I don't think it's necessarily stopping the overall problem with meth addiction. I guess it's a step, but in my opininion it's not a big enough step.

[t3h_wookiee]

I do think it's working perhaps to cut down on the meth LABS and meth COOKING, but I don't think it's necessarily stopping the overall problem with meth addiction. I guess it's a step, but in my opininion it's not a big enough step.

But it's a good first step. They're working on programs and such to help the addicts here.

[t3h_wookiee]

But see, I disagree that simply making Sudafed more difficult to buy equates to less meth addicts around.

They CAN still buy meth, only it comes from overseas or other countries I guess.

There WILL still be OTHER problems with crime, etc. regardless of the Sudafed being available.

It only costs a meth addict $20 to get high, and the high lasts for 2 weeks! (Hey, that's cheaper than those evil cigarettes that those pregnant women are smoking!)

To me this is simply a band-aid solution. What about treatment or rehab for these people for example?


True, but the meth cost more to buy, and most of the people who are addicted to it here in my state are too poor to buy it. That's why they made it themselves. We've had a drastic increase in the number of people in drug rehab also.

Of course there will still be other problems with crime-but interestingly enough the number of house break-ins has dropped correspondingly here.

The number of drug rehab programs has increased over the past several years, and they're making a more serious effort to rehab those in jail for drug charges. It's too soon to tell how well these programs are working though.

[wine_o_girlie]

Shoot, this time around I don't follow any of the rules. I have coffee and coke when I want it and I have wine when I want it. Same goes for soft cheese and sandwich meat.

Ditto except this is my first pregnancy. I'm actually drinking a coke right at this very instant, should I look my office door for fear of being arrested? :rolleyes:

[ysolde]

While I understand the opposition to such legislation (and, in fact, agree with ithat viewpoint), I think some of the responses overlook the complicated nature of the question. Respectfully, I think the Government has a very valid interest in promoting fetal health and development. (If it didn't, then why encourage or fund prenatal care?) The more problematic question is how to balance the need to promote fetal health with the individual rights of pregnant women. It's the same question implicated by the abortion debate, and one that I don't think has an easy answer. Given the difficulties, I'd urge greater emphasis on education and incentives to encourage healthy prenatal behavior rather than banning smoking. But I do think it's entirely valid to be concerned about the issue, even if that interest conflicts, broadly, with the autonomy of individual women.

There are so many things we would have to outlaw for pregnant women, in that vein. Some unnecessary. Some a necessity. Rollercoasters. Driving. Cheese. Sushi. Alcohol. High stress jobs (please define). Cat poop. Tuna fish. All kinds of meds. Honey (IIRC). High heels. Certain kinds of pants. Certain exercises. We could go on forever, couldn't we?

[artist]

It's too soon to tell how well these programs are working though.

True. And it could be that Oklahoma might be a step ahead of Minnesota for whatever reason with this problem.

[artist]

There are so many things we would have to outlaw for pregnant women, in that vein. Some unnecessary. Some a necessity. Rollercoasters. Driving. Cheese. Sushi. Alcohol. High stress jobs (please define). Cat poop. Tuna fish. All kinds of meds. Honey (IIRC). High heels. Certain kinds of pants. Certain exercises. We could go on forever, couldn't we?

:D

I just would love to see a cop TRY to arrest my poor cats for pooping!

[DansGirl]

[QUOTE=MLA]I think that's discriminatory. If you're going to criminalize it for pregnant women, then you should criminalize it for everyone. QUOTE]


ITA

[Rose]

It only costs a meth addict $20 to get high, and the high lasts for 2 weeks! (Hey, that's cheaper than those evil cigarettes that those pregnant women are smoking!)

Meth is actually out of your system in 2-4 days. I really don't see what the big deal is about having to get your sudafed from behind the counter. Yes it's one extra step, but I have plenty of extras in my life.

Edited - [part removed] I don't want to share that much about my life. Something has to be done about the Meth epedemic and if it helps to have sudafed behind the counter I'm all for it. Of course, that is just the icing on the cake.

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

I do think it's working perhaps to cut down on the meth LABS and meth COOKING, but I don't think it's necessarily stopping the overall problem with meth addiction. I guess it's a step, but in my opininion it's not a big enough step.
Okay, so we know it seems to be working in Oklahoma. Do you know what the numbers are in your state?

[Jazz]

Totally against regulating pg. women. But on the topic of meth, here's a recent relevant article (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/20/us/20meth.html?ex=1153454400&en=d48c67a4b9c9b678&ei=5070):
Quest Diagnostics, the nation's largest drug testing company, said that in the first five months of this year, the rate of job applicants and workers testing positive for meth was 31 percent lower than last year.
...
The drop was steepest in the West, particularly in states that were among the first hit by methamphetamine abuse. The drop in Oklahoma, for example, was 68 percent, in Montana 66 percent and in Oregon 60 percent.

Our local news had a really sad series last summer about the effects on police officers who investigate meth labs -- historically, they entered with only latex gloves, and many now have chronic health problems.

I did read somewhere recently that once the small home labs are shut down, the next big challenge is going to be stopping the big big labs that get their ingredients elsewhere, but I can't find that story.

[katmg]

Oh, I absolutely think we should criminalize it. Along with alcohol, caffeine, unpasteurized cheese, certain fishes, high levels of stress, and so on. Let's make it ALL illegal for a pregnant woman.

Sweet! Can I quit my job now?? I'd hate to be arrested for having high levels of stress. Maybe I should just tell my clients to stick it? That would certainly lower my stress level.

Of course, there is the matter of the fresh mozzarella cheese sandwich I had for lunch today though...not sure if that was pasteurized or not...

(I thought honey was okay for pregnant women, but not okay for infants?)

This law is beyond ridiculous.

[artist]

Okay, so we know it seems to be working in Oklahoma. Do you know what the numbers are in your state?

Not sure, but this is the article I was referring to that I read in my local newspaper yesterday...

Meth addicts find gold in copper
Police seeing trend of scrap metal theft
BY FREDERICK MELO
Pioneer Press

With police cracking down on homespun methamphetamine laboratories, addicts and small-time dealers appear to be turning to a new trade to fund their habit: copper.

"Anytime you've got copper thefts, you've got meth problems," said Dakota County Sheriff Don Gudmundson. "One goes with the other."

Reports of stolen copper, aluminum and scrap metal have jumped in the past two years in step with worldwide demand for construction materials, which have risen dramatically in price.

more at http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/15017122.htm


More about drug trafficking into MN:

Troopers get training in telltale signs of meth-smuggling
A federally funded course is teaching officers to identify and deal with the drug traffickers plying the highways.
Paul McEnroe, Star Tribune

A speed war is being waged every day on Minnesota's highways and it has nothing to do with driving too fast or evading radar.
The fight is to stop the cross-country trafficking of methamphetamine, an illegal drug many users call "speed," and the Minnesota State Patrol says it's under siege.

Capt. David Graham, head of the state patrol's investigative unit, says each day is a struggle to catch smugglers working for Mexican drug cartels that are delivering millions of dollars of meth to Minnesota.

DEA and state authorities estimate that more than 100 pounds of meth produced and packaged by cartels arrives in Minnesota every month. Compare that with what troopers have seized in the past six months: 25 pounds of meth hidden in three vehicles.

"I shudder to think what we're missing," Graham said.

For a meth smuggler working the long haul to Minnesota, few vehicles look better for the job than a Ford Contour. The nondescript compact car blends into highway traffic that's filled with giant semis and SUVs, perfect for slipping past the eyes of most officers assigned to highway patrols.

more at http://www.startribune.com/462/story/539977.html


also...

Law enforcement officials say it's getting harder to track methamphetamine labs in Minnesota. Less than 30 percent of the meth here is made in the state. But because homemade meth is several times stronger than the kind that's imported, it's still a major concern. And now cops say meth makers are getting better at hiding their crime.
http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2005/03/31_postt_methupdate/


Though this would indicate the Sudafed thing is making a difference:
http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/eh/meth/

But again, I'm not convinced yet that the problem is really going away, but instead changing.

[Tanya]

I'm sorry, but that is just dumb. As an adult, I can make my own damn choice as to whether or not I would like to smoke.

Along that line of thinking, let's also outlaw any and all liquor (including cough syrup) to absolutely anyone and everyone. Why? Well, liquor is bad for you, bad for pregnant women, is dangerous in combination with driving, etc. So let's just outlaw it! Outlawing and banning things does NOT make them go away. Drinking never went away during prohibition days. Abortion didn't go away when it was outlawed. It still happened, it was just more dangerous.
Well, I think we can all agree that alcohol, caffeine, etc. (and even some illegal drugs) can have health benefits, but smoking has absolutely no benefits. I don't necessarily agree with outlawing smoking (and definitely not with pregnant women), but it's not as it folks are arbitrarily picking on smoking. It's really a nasty habit. The best we can do is get the information out there.

[artist]

Well, I think we can all agree that alcohol, caffeine, etc. (and even some illegal drugs) can have health benefits, but smoking has absolutely no benefits. I don't necessarily agree with outlawing smoking (and definitely not with pregnant women), but it's not as it folks are arbitrarily picking on smoking. It's really a nasty habit. The best we can do is get the information out there.

So, what are the benefits of drinking? From personal experience I've been more bothered by the drinking of others as opposed to the smoking of others. At least a smoker won't potentially kill somone while driving or have their mood drastically change or blackout or have a woops/one night stand.

Actually, I would argue that it would be MORE dangerous for a pregnant woman to drink as opposed to smoke.

About the only real benefit I can see from drinking is that there have been studies indicating that a glass of wine a day for women might be good for the heart.

[Tanya]

So, what are the benefits of drinking? From personal experience I've been more bothered by the drinking of others as opposed to the smoking of others. At least a smoker won't potentially kill somone while driving or have their mood drastically change or blackout or have a woops/one night stand.

Actually, I would argue that it would be MORE dangerous for a pregnant woman to drink as opposed to smoke.

About the only real benefit I can see from drinking is that there have been studies indicating that a glass of wine a day for women might be good for the heart.
Um, I'm not talking about binge drinking. And I'm sure quite a few moms can weigh in on the idea that it's better to smoke (even one cig a day) than to have a glass of wine while pregnant.:cool:

Here you go:
Moderate drinkers tend to have better health and live longer than those who are either abstainers or heavy drinkers. In addition to having fewer heart attacks and strokes, moderate consumers of alcoholic beverages (beer, wine or distilled spirits or liquor) are generally less likely to suffer hypertension or high blood pressure, peripheral artery disease, Alzheimer's disease and the common cold. Sensible drinking also appears to be beneficial in reducing or preventing diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, bone fractures and osteoporosis, kidney stones, digestive ailments, stress and depression, poor cognition and memory, Parkinson's disease, hepatitis A, pancreatic cancer, macular degeneration (a major cause of blindness), angina pectoris, duodenal ulcer, erectile sysfunction, hearing loss, gallstones, liver disease and poor physical condition in elderly.


from here (http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/AlcoholAndHealth.html).

And one more thing--no one can force their alcohol problem to be your problem quite like smokers can if you get my drift.

[artist]

And one more thing--no one can force their alcohol problem to be your problem quite like smokers can if you get my drift.

Generally I see your point, but as someone who has had to attend AlAnon meetings, I very much disagree. Alcoholics tend to make their problem YOUR problem if you are in anyway close to them.

Most smokers I know tend to smoke their cigarettes AWAY from non-smokers. I don't know of too many smokers who impose their habit on other people.

[Tanya]

I understand what you are saying, Artist, but I am not talking about alcoholics, which opens up a whole host of issues. I am just speaking of people who drink moderately. I know it's hard to understand how people can enjoy alcohol safely when you have seen the bad effects it has when it's taken to the extreme, but many, many people can enjoy drinking without becoming dependent or getting into a car and doing something stupid. So it's unfair to use alcoholics as a benchmark for why drinking is just as bad as smoking.

[MLA]

Most smokers I know tend to smoke their cigarettes AWAY from non-smokers. I don't know of too many smokers who impose their habit on other people.


That's because they can't. If smoking weren't banned from most public places, smokers would smoke in public places and thus impose their habit on others.

[wendalah]

I have a Better Homes & Gardens Family Medical Guide (written by MDs!) from 1961 that says it's OK for pregnant women to smoke six cigarettes per day--and that it would be "cruel" to deny a woman who is accustomed to them. :)

[artist]

That's because they can't. If smoking weren't banned from most public places, smokers would smoke in public places and thus impose their habit on others.

Honestly, I was referring to smokers I know before it was publicly banned and while it is banned.

[artist]

I understand what you are saying, Artist, but I am not talking about alcoholics, which opens up a whole host of issues. I am just speaking of people who drink moderately. I know it's hard to understand how people can enjoy alcohol safely when you have seen the bad effects it has when it's taken to the extreme, but many, many people can enjoy drinking without becoming dependent or getting into a car and doing something stupid. So it's unfair to use alcoholics as a benchmark for why drinking is just as bad as smoking.

Not all smokers are "pack a day" smokers though. Some people smoke a couple cigs ever day or so.

I also know people who smoke pot every few months or so. They're not hooked on weed. Though their habit is outlawed.

[MLA]

Not all smokers are "pack a day" smokers though. Some people smoke a couple cigs ever day or so.
Yeah, but that one or two cigarettes a day does infringe on others rights if those smokers smoke around people.

Honestly, I was referring to smokers I know before it was publicly banned and while it is banned.
That's great that you know considerate smokers. I imagine that for them, banning smoking in public places wouldn't be a hardship. Unfortunately, not all smokers are so considerate, which is why bans need to be in place.

[kris97]

There are so many things we would have to outlaw for pregnant women, in that vein. Some unnecessary. Some a necessity. Rollercoasters. Driving. Cheese. Sushi. Alcohol. High stress jobs (please define). Cat poop. Tuna fish. All kinds of meds. Honey (IIRC). High heels. Certain kinds of pants. Certain exercises. We could go on forever, couldn't we?


I agree that criminalization of any of these things would be impractical and ill-advised. The point of my post is to point out that the impulse to protect fetal health is not inappopriate -- as I mentioned, otherwise there would be no reason to encourage proper prenatal care. The real question is how to balance the rights and autonomy of pregnant women against the need/desire to promote fetal health, and on that quesiton, I join others who disagree with criminalization.

[lawyerlee]

I have a Better Homes & Gardens Family Medical Guide (written by MDs!) from 1961 that says it's OK for pregnant women to smoke six cigarettes per day--and that it would be "cruel" to deny a woman who is accustomed to them. :)
Wowza. How things have changed in that time! :)

[wendalah]

Yes, and the funny thing is, there were a lot of perfectly healthy people born during that time.

[Tanya]

Not all smokers are "pack a day" smokers though. Some people smoke a couple cigs ever day or so.
That's great. They still infringe their habit on others, though, so even a comparison of moderate drinkers to 1-2 cigs/day smokers is fair and I'll always fall on the side of moderate drinkers.

[artist]

That's great. They still infringe their habit on others, though, so even a comparison of moderate drinkers to 1-2 cigs/day smokers is fair and I'll always fall on the side of moderate drinkers.

See my comment in the other thread about how not ALL smokers are infringe their habits on others.

[Tanya]

See my comment in the other thread about how not ALL smokers are infringe their habits on others.
This is the last comment I will make in this thread on this topic, but you are missing my point. If you smoke in a social setting, you are infringing your habit on others. Period.

[lawyerlee]

See my comment in the other thread about how not ALL smokers are infringe their habits on others.
I must disagree. We all live on the same planet and their smoking (even one or two a day) affects all of us.

[dionysia]

Throw me in jail with Di too.I'll bring the playing cards!

Di

[dionysia]

Well, aren't we all "pre-pregnant" anyway? Why not just make it illegal for ALL women, since we're in a constant state of preparing to conceive!So wouldn't Kyrsten, Delta, you, and me all be pre-pre-pregnant? ;)

Di

[Esq.]

LOL! I am not pregnant! I am pre-pre-pregnant! ;)

[msnicolea]

I think we're post-pre pregnant--so smoking's ok, right?!?!

[Esq.]

Allrighty then! I am off to get me some Marlboro's. And while I am at it, I am going to get a fifth of...something. Aw, who am I kidding? If I am going to drink, I am going to drink wine.

[LyLMyssChaos]

I don't like to see a pregnant woman smoking, but it just wouldn't be practical to enforce a law against it. Besides that I can think of a lot better ways to spend tax dollars, a lot more important "crimes" to focus on.

[wine_o_girlie]

Allrighty then! I am off to get me some Marlboro's. And while I am at it, I am going to get a fifth of...something. Aw, who am I kidding? If I am going to drink, I am going to drink wine.

Guess what I am drinking with my lunch? ICED TEA with caffeine. Oh the horrors...

[paiger]

Yes, and the funny thing is, there were a lot of perfectly healthy people born during that time.
My mom smoked w/ both my sister and I. My sister was right at 5lbs, and I was a little over it. I was lucky, though b/c with me my mom didn't follow the recommended 'diet' that she read about that helped 'pg women not gain too much weight'. She said she was starving the entire time she was pg w/ my sister :eek:!

My uncle was her dr. He said that she should probably cut back, but there was no indication that she needed to quit smoking.

[artist]

This is the last comment I will make in this thread on this topic, but you are missing my point. If you smoke in a social setting, you are infringing your habit on others. Period.

Well I guess when my other friends who smoke have a cigarette in front of me while I am ALSO having a cigarette are infringing their habit onto me. And when I walk FAR FAR away from a non-smoker so I can enjoy my cigarette, apparently I am STILL infringing my habit on them. I can't win. Can I just ask, where the hell CAN I still smoke without offending the whole world? Surely my own backyard is still an acceptable place? I sure hope I can at LEAST smoke on my own property. I don't have kids and my husband smokes too. Am I still infringing my habit on him? I dunno. Guess I am not feeling too guilty about that.

[msnicolea]

I don't think anyone in any of the MANY smoking threads has suggested you can't smoke in your own home or yard.

[JamBray]

I think this would be an absolutely ridiculous law for many of the reasons that others have mentioned. While I understand wanting to protect the fetus, there actually could be more damage done if the mother was to stop mid-pregnancy and go through withdrawal symptoms.

[wendalah]

Guess what I am drinking with my lunch? ICED TEA with caffeine. Oh the horrors...

That was my mom's poison. She drank GALLONS of it when she was PG with me! (She still does--it's always been her favorite drink.)

[Tanya]

Well I guess when my other friends who smoke have a cigarette in front of me while I am ALSO having a cigarette are infringing their habit onto me. And when I walk FAR FAR away from a non-smoker so I can enjoy my cigarette, apparently I am STILL infringing my habit on them. I can't win. Can I just ask, where the hell CAN I still smoke without offending the whole world? Surely my own backyard is still an acceptable place? I sure hope I can at LEAST smoke on my own property. I don't have kids and my husband smokes too. Am I still infringing my habit on him? I dunno. Guess I am not feeling too guilty about that.
Artist, seriously. I said social setting. You even quoted me on that. The definition being that other people are around you.

[MLA]

That was my mom's poison. She drank GALLONS of it when she was PG with me! (She still does--it's always been her favorite drink.)


Ah, well now that explains a few things! ;)

[wine_o_girlie]

That was my mom's poison. She drank GALLONS of it when she was PG with me! (She still does--it's always been her favorite drink.)

Uh oh, does this mean my kid is going to be a (gasp) Republican? ;) I have already bought a "Born Democrat" bib.

[artist]

Artist, seriously. I said social setting. You even quoted me on that. The definition being that other people are around you.

And in many social settings I am in, EVERYONE is smoking. But I do get your drift, I do. Which is why when I smoke and there are non-smokers, I walk far far away.

[artist]

Uh oh, does this mean my kid is going to be a (gasp) Republican? ;) I have already bought a "Born Democrat" bib.

:)

Is that why I don't care for iced tea? I never thought it might be that I am really liberal!

[Sarah]

I actually think that many doctors still say that stopping smoking right away when you get unexpectedly pg is a bad idea. I think that much like other addictive substances (meth, etc) it's not good to put your body into withdrawal all the sudden, and it can hurt the fetus. I think that doctors recommend slowly cutting back (with cigs).

Also, in Europe they still recommend no more than 8 drinks a week in many countries, and from a couple articles I read recently about this, a case of FAS has never once been reported with a mother drinking fewer than 8 drinks a week. I always drank a glass or two of wine a weeek while pg, and my kids are okay.

Oh, would they make smoking and nursing illegal, too? Jerks.

[ysolde]

Yes, and the funny thing is, there were a lot of perfectly healthy people born during that time.

In the 70s, pregnant women were encouraged to have an occasional drink in the third trimester, since it was thought to prevent premature labor.

[ysolde]

I don't like to see a pregnant woman smoking, but it just wouldn't be practical to enforce a law against it. Besides that I can think of a lot better ways to spend tax dollars, a lot more important "crimes" to focus on.

My feelings exactly.

[sue-bert]

Noble intentions, but bad idea. That's one hell of a "slippery slope" we're descending if we start criminalizing smoking for pregnant folks.

Maybe we can also throw 'em in jail for not eating organic vegetables (all those pesticides can harm fetuses, ya know), or for not getting enough exercise, or for eating unpasteurized soft cheeses, or for indulging in a sip of wine?

I think we're going to have to go with the carrot rather than the stick motivator on this one.

[msnicolea]

Noble intentions, but bad idea. That's one hell of a "slippery slope" we're descending if we start criminalizing smoking for pregnant folks.

Maybe we can also throw 'em in jail for not eating organic vegetables (all those pesticides can harm fetuses, ya know), or for not getting enough exercise, or for eating unpasteurized soft cheeses, or for indulging in a sip of wine?

I think we're going to have to go with the carrot rather than the stick motivator on this one.

Dear God--I ate a little brie cheese yesterday while lounging in my PJs on the couch at 6:30pm in the evening--I am in BIG trouble!

[artist]

Dear God--I ate a little brie cheese yesterday while lounging in my PJs on the couch at 6:30pm in the evening--I am in BIG trouble!

Okay, what the heck is the deal with Brie cheese? I didn't know until maybe a month ago that that was a no no for pregnant women. Is there anything fun/interesting that pregnant women CAN consume? I've never been pregnant but I'm beginning to think there is absolutely NOTHING good about the process. More reason I guess to put it off even longer.

[jajacobsen]

Brie cheese is made with unpasteurised milk, and may contain harmful bacteria. I don't subscribe to this level of concern, but that is the reasoning.

[bookworm]

I'd be interested in hearing from the people who voted "yes"--has anyone posted in this thread? I understand why you wouldn't want to post given the tone of the thread, but the poll indicates (right now) it's only a little better than 2:1 against, so plenty of people are thinking it's a good idea.

[Sin Nombre]

Well, I think if they tried to criminalize smoking for pregnant mothers-to-be, I'd lobby for them to criminalize it for the corresponding father-to-be as well. Secondhand smoke, and all that jazz...

Speaking of jazz, hell; let's just bring back Prohibition, and include smoking/caffeine/trans fats/unsafe sex/etc., along with the booze. :rolleyes:

[MLA]

Speaking of jazz, hell; let's just bring back Prohibition, and include smoking/caffeine/trans fats/unsafe sex/etc., along with the booze. :rolleyes:

Awesome. That's a great idea. Maybe I can start selling moonshine on the black market -- I'll be a millionaire!

[artist]

Okay, I'll sell all the food with fat! (Better that then sell unsafe sex!)

[Sin Nombre]

Awesome. That's a great idea. Maybe I can start selling moonshine on the black market -- I'll be a millionaire!

No fair - I thought of it first!

I may not be able to indulge in it safely, but I sure as hell can profit from it, can't I?

[wine_o_girlie]

Brie cheese is made with unpasteurised milk, and may contain harmful bacteria. I don't subscribe to this level of concern, but that is the reasoning.

Actually, most soft cheeses sold domestically in this country today are made with pasteurized milk. Doctors have done women a disservice by not updating their advice on soft cheeses - the correct advice is "do not eat cheeses made with unpasteurized milk". So, check the label and if it says pasteurized you are good to go - long live Brie! :)