Spinoff thread - NIP with an older child. What do you think? [Archive]

AndreaMMS

07-12-2006, 03:58 AM

There is a thread on here flaming an author for an article putting down people who nurse babies in public.

http://www.constantchatter.com/showthread.php?t=22010

Due to supply issues my daughter is formula fed, but I agree with most of the posters on there - for women who are able to nurse nursing is a necessity, not a political statement, and I see nothing at all wrong with nursing an infant in a public place. The baby needs to eat, the mother needs to leave the house!

That being said though, not too long ago I saw a woman nurse her 3 1/2 or 4 year old in a public place, and honestly, I was kind of grossed out.

I'm curious about how other people feel about women who are nursing older kids doing it in public - obviously at some point it's more of a comfort thing than for nutrition...so it's not a matter of neccesity in the same way as it would be with an infant. I know there is a question of what is "older..." In my opinion, if the child is really functioning as a "kid" physically and not a baby/very young toddler, it's time to consider going private with nursing. I'm thinking around age 2, 2 1/2....

Nursing in public is legal, yes, this mother had every right to do so. And no, I wouldn't want to take away that right. But still, seeing an older child who was capable of holding entire conversations running up and pulling her Mom's top up and bra down and starting to nurse made me uncomfortable and my personal reaction was "ew, they should really do that in private."

What do you think? Is there an age where sursing should be done in private? If so, than what, in your opinion, is that age?

solongtogo

07-12-2006, 04:28 AM

Honestly, I think I would be uncomfortable with that as well..not that I'd ever say anything, but still....that's too old to be nursing.

Asha

07-12-2006, 04:31 AM

AndreaMMS

07-12-2006, 04:50 AM

doesn't the la leche league promote nursing this late?

Huh. Interesting. I don't know...but I'm not really debating weather it's right or wrong to nurse late, just if it's appropriate to nurse an older child in public places.

I mean, shouldn't/couldn't that be part of a big kid vs. baby discussion with a child? IE:"You're a big girl now. Big girls don't wear diapers, they learn to use the potty! Isn't that cool?!?" "You're a big girl now. Babies nurse outside because they need it to eat. Big girls do it in private because it's a special time to have a cuddle with Mommy. Isn't that cool?!?"

Nigellas

07-12-2006, 04:58 AM

My aunt nursed my cousin until he was 5 and I’ll admit it was a little shocking to see. I think because it’s not something I see very often, *not* because it’s something I think is wrong or gross or needs to be hidden.

Jenyfer9

07-12-2006, 05:24 AM

AndreaMMS: I think that I'm with you on this one. I agree that after a certain point nursing is a comfort thing, not a necessity thing (if your kid wants to nurse after eating chicken nuggets at the mall, for example). I don't know where the cutoff is, though. I mean, my DS#1 will still take a pacifier from time to time when he's having a hard time getting to sleep, but I won't allow him to have that just any time of day, you know? I honestly think that nursing should be the same way after a certain age.

Marisa

07-12-2006, 05:59 AM

doesn't the la leche league promote nursing this late?

i had a classmate that nursed her child until she went to kindergarten. the child was overweight, and i wondered if nursing her so long caused her to be overweight. does breast milk have more fat than regular milk?

The LLL promotes the nursing relationship continuing as long as the mother and child are interested in continuing. (They do not FORCE you to nurse this long, I can't tell if that's your impression of the organization, but they support nursing for 6 weeks, 6 months, 6 years, whatever.)

For that matter, so does the World Health Organization and American Academy of Pediatrics ("There is no upper limit to the duration of breastfeeding and no evidence of psychologic or developmental harm from breastfeeding into the third year of life or longer." AAP Policy Statement, Feb 2005)

Your friend's child's obesity has nothing to do with being breastfed; in fact, infants who are breastfed statistically have less of a chance of being obese later in life.

As for NIP with an older child, I have nursed my DS in public past a year, although I have found an out-of-the-way spot (not a bathroom, just a quiet corner).

It is my opinion that any 3+ year old who simply runs up and pulls on their mother's bra has not been taught limits. Even if I planned to nurse a 3, 4, 5 year old, he would have respect for my body and my boundaries, and behavior like that would be discussed and discouraged.

I don't see anything wrong with nursing an older child, if that's what the mother and child both desire to do, but I do see the value of some compromise when it comes to social pressures, especially since the older child will be cognizant of any rude or ignorant comments passersby might make. It would be as much for his protection as for the 'delicate' sensibilities of those around us.

NYN

07-12-2006, 06:25 AM

i think marisa hit the nail on the head. i don't so much care about what other people think of me NIP but once my daughter is old enough to understand the negative comments, i wouldn't want to nurse her in these situations b/c i wouldn't want her to think that something that she loves doing so much is wrong.

i will also say that toddler nursing is probably more common than you think it is. i think a lot of people start off saying that they are going to nurse for 6 months or a year and they still find themselves nursing their 2-year-old to sleep at night. the thing is that everyone is aware of the social stigma so it isn't really discussed. i have a friend who nursed both her girls until they were three and even tandem nursed for 9 months and her own mother didn't know it.

i also think that the mother who is nursing her 4-year-old in public is probably aware that you don't like it and most probably she doesn't really care about your opinion. and if her kid is lifting her shirt or demanding to nurse, that child was never taught limits and that has nothing to do w/ nursing but everything to do w/ parenting choices.

(this thread is very timely as i am working on an article about extended breastfeeding right now. ;))

Sarah

07-12-2006, 07:27 AM

Honestly, I think I would be uncomfortable with that as well..not that I'd ever say anything, but still....that's too old to be nursing.
Why? Give me a good reason, not just because you are uncomfortable with it.

i had a classmate that nursed her child until she went to kindergarten. the child was overweight, and i wondered if nursing her so long caused her to be overweight. does breast milk have more fat than regular milk?Long term (or even short term) nursing decreases the risk of lifetime obesity, among other diseases and problems, actually.

Huh. Interesting. I don't know...but I'm not really debating weather it's right or wrong to nurse late, just if it's appropriate to nurse an older child in public places.

I mean, shouldn't/couldn't that be part of a big kid vs. baby discussion with a child? IE:"You're a big girl now. Big girls don't wear diapers, they learn to use the potty! Isn't that cool?!?" "You're a big girl now. Babies nurse outside because they need it to eat. Big girls do it in private because it's a special time to have a cuddle with Mommy. Isn't that cool?!?"
But why? If there's nothing wrong with nursing at that age, why not do it in public? Because other people might be uncomfortable? I don't see that as a good reason to choose my public behaviors. I mean, there are people who are uncomfortable with my aunt and uncle holding hands in public, because one is white and the other is black. And no, they certainly don't HAVE to hold hands, it's not a need or a right. But why should they stop, just because others feel squidgy about it?

FWIW, I stopped NIPing my DD when she was about 2, just mostly because she never asked when we were out, and because it would have been immodest for my personal standards (she needed more access than a baby), but she continued nursing until she was almost 3. I have no problem with others nursing kids as long as they please, wherever they please.

Ole Miss Bride

07-12-2006, 07:35 AM

solongtogo

07-12-2006, 08:08 AM

Why? Give me a good reason, not just because you are uncomfortable with it.

There are other people here who would not be comfortable with it. I'm not saying that it's wrong, or that you shouldn't do it, I'm saying I personally would't do it. I think that having a 5 year old child still breastfeeding is wierd. So sorry. That's my opinion.

What you want to do with your own child is fine. I'm not going to call someone out because they want to breastfeed their kid until they are 13. I don't personally care that much. So lets not try to start a fight mkay?

Renrel

07-12-2006, 08:18 AM

As a mom nursing an child approaching 3 I have mixed feelings on the subject. I occassional nurse in public but not very often, for several reasons. 1) my son rarely feels the need or desire to NIP anymore. He would rather explore the world. 2) He is likely to try to open up my non-nursing side as he nurses and that is too much exposure in public. I tell him no, but he often really wants this and it is embarrassing and annoying to fight to keep the rest of myself covered. 3) Sometimes I think others will be uncomfortable and I don't want to be the cause of that.

However, it is very very rare for my son to just come up to me, pull up my shirt and open my bra. He is more likely to try to climb into my lap and assume his nursing position, expecting me to open my shirt and bra myself. He does understand that it is my body and I can say no.

One reason I do occassionally like to NIP is so others will see that "normal" people do do this and that their kids are "normal". I think that there is often an understandable assumtion that a kid who nurses till 3 or longer is in some way not "normal." That they are shy, clingy unable to seperation from mom ect. My son is very attached to me but he also has an incredibly easy time transitioning to new situations, like daycare or staying over at grandma house, even if he only sees grandma once every couple of months. He does not frighten easily. Fireworks, thunder, the dark, animals, strangers, heights - no problem. Just don't spash him in the face with water.:rolleyes: He is also good at standing up for himself with other kids. He will say no!, My turn!, that my ball! to defend his rights. He does not push or hit or bite or come crying to me to save him. In fact he firmly scolded my BIL recently for pushing my 7 year old nephew as they rough housed a bit. The 7 year old needed no defending but my son did not know that and tryed to enforce the rules as he understood them.

I can't say obviously that nursing caused this personality, but I have read that it is common for nursed children to behave in this manner. The theory is that because they know they can connect in this very secure way with mom when the want/need to, they feel more confident about exploring the world beyond mom. I think there was one study showing that late nursed kids were rated by teachers as better adjusted socially in grade school than other kids, but I may not be remembering it correctly.

There is also sometimes an assumtion that it is all about the mom, that the kid does not want or need to nurse and the mom has some perverse need for this connection. I guess seeing me NIP would not disprove this, but I don't think there is anything else about me which would give off this impression. And they might see that it is happening because my child requested it, not because I called him over and asked for it. They could also see that I do not appear titilated or excited by my interaction with my child. They might also have observed that when not nursing I tend to stay a few feet back while my child plays, encouraging him to do things on his own.

I will also say that I have worried that maybe there could be some harm done by late nursing, given concerns other people have raised. I have however failed to turn up an research indicating that any study has found a problem. I am sure there are individual stories where things went wrong, but that does not mean that most people should avoid extended nursing.

And for what it is worth, I did not plan on EN. I knew only two woman who had and I thought it was a bit strange. I was committed to getting to one year. I assumed we would end then, since DS actually was not that interested from about 10 mths to a year. He got sick on his birthday and suddenly wanted to nurse again. He has continued to since then. I am not sure how long we will go. I really would like the end to be initiated by him, not me but I might reach a point where I am not comfortable nursing an older child, I will not know what that point is till I reach it.

prudies

07-12-2006, 08:26 AM

I'm not saying that it's wrong, or that you shouldn't do it, I'm saying I personally would't do it. I think that having a 5 year old child still breastfeeding is wierd. So sorry. That's my opinion.

I think it's an interesting issue, actually, but one that seems to never end very well here!

Plenty of people think it's weird to breastfeed a 5 year old, or a toddler, for that matter. I'm assuming the answer to Sarah's question is that it's weird because most women in this country do not breastfeed babies/kids for that long. It's not normal - it's outside the norm.

My understanding is that studies have shown no psychological detriment to breastfeeding an older toddler, and extended breastfeeding offers nutritional and other health benefits. Having said that, I do suspect there is an age at which a child is too old to breastfeed. During the toddler years, your child learns to separate from you, physically and emotionally. I don't mean that the kid picks up one day and moves out of state, but he or she begins to spend time playing alone, getting used to other people, and on a physical level, walking on his or her own. Now, the process takes time. It's not a clean break. A toddler goes back and forth - separating a little, and then retreating to mama, rinse and repeat. But if a five year old still needs to breastfeed, doesn't that mean he's immature?

Renrel One reason I do occassionally like to NIP is so others will see that "normal" people do do this and that their kids are "normal". I think that there is often an understandable assumtion that a kid who nurses till 3 or longer is in some way not "normal." That they are shy, clingy unable to seperation from mom ect. My son is very attached to me but he also has an incredibly easy time transitioning to new situations. He does not frighten easily. Fireworks, thunder, the dark, animals, strangers, heights - no problem. Just don't spash him in the face with water. He is also good at standing up for himself with other kids. He will say no!, My turn!, that my ball! to defend his rights. He does not push or hit or bite or come crying to me to save him.

So I can see this at 3. But do you think he will be nursing at 5?

jenjen0713

07-12-2006, 08:27 AM

There are other people here who would not be comfortable with it. I'm not saying that it's wrong, or that you shouldn't do it, I'm saying I personally would't do it. I think that having a 5 year old child still breastfeeding is wierd. So sorry. That's my opinion.

(raise hand) I too would be uncomfortable with it. I agree, I'm not saying it is wrong, it just isn't something that I grew up seeing everyday. I saw many women nurse babies growing up, so it seems very natural to me. I'm sure if I would have grown up seeing women nursing toddlers, I would likewise, think this is the "norm" and not feel uncomfortable if I saw a woman at the mall doing this. In my opinion, I think you are comfortable with what you grew up knowing....many people have never seen a woman nurse a baby and likewise would be very uncomfortable if they saw me nursing a 2 week old baby. Maybe, I'm wrong, but I think in the U.S., it just isn't common for people to see women nursing children after the age of 1. Maybe if we were a society where nursing toddlers was a common everyday occurrance as nursing babies is today, then I doubt we would all be having this discussion. I'm very pro-bfing and if a woman wants to nurse her child until the age of 5 or whatever, than all the power to her.

Ole Miss Bride

07-12-2006, 08:37 AM

Having said that, I do suspect there is an age at which a child is too old to breastfeed.
See, that's what I would think, too. I mean, I totally get the health benefits of breast milk, and I'm all about nursing my baby, but I would think there is a point where it just isn't necessary anymore. At what point/age - I have no idea. But it would seem very strange to me to see a 3 or 4-year-old walking around sucking on a bottle, so maybe that would be my cutoff point for nursing as well? Too old for a bottle = too old to nurse?

I know that's not what this thread is about, but it's interesting to me, anyway. I really don't mean to offend anybody - I know this can be a pretty heated topic - just found the conversation interesting.

-Betsy

prudies

07-12-2006, 08:45 AM

Betsy -

Oh good, another person who thinks it's an interesting topic, but doesn't want to the thread to blow up! :D

But it would seem very strange to me to see a 3 or 4-year-old walking around sucking on a bottle, so maybe that would be my cutoff point for nursing as well? Too old for a bottle = too old to nurse?

Well, nursing doesn't pose a problem for baby's teeth like a bottle does. There's no physical harm in nursing a child, I just wonder if emotionally it's the best thing.

SiValleySteph

07-12-2006, 08:53 AM

I NIP yesterday with my toddler - my almost 2 year old toddler. Really, I don't care what you (general you) think. My son did not come over and pull my shirt up and grab my bra (does this really happen?), he asked to nurse. Like I usually do when we're out and about, I told him that we would go home and he could nurse there. Well, he really needed to nurse at that time (for comfort or whatever, he is teething molars), so I nursed him. No boobage was shown. We were at the library, BTW. I actually came back inside to the library from the car with him because I would rather sit in a comfortable chair than try to fit ourselves in the front seat of my car.

I have no idea when we will stop nursing. I do not feel like setting an arbitrary limit on nursing at this point in time. He obviously still wants to nurse and I believe there are nutritional and emotional benefits at this age. I do not imagine I will be nursing a 5 year old, but who knows?

Personally, I have rarely (if ever) seen anyone NIP a child over 1, at least that I noticed. If I saw someone nursing a 3-4 year old, I would be in shock, just because I never see ANYONE nursing in public. I think it's mostly because you really can't tell if someone is nursing in most cases. I do live in the SF Bay Area, so I'm pretty sure people are nursing out and about!

I'm not some weird freaky person. :cool:

LeslieR

07-12-2006, 08:56 AM

When I was much younger and obviously not yet a mother, I worked for a woman who was still nursing her kindergartner (sp?). It totally grossed me out when she told me this. Now that I am older and a (nursing!) mother, it more intrigues me than anything else. If I saw an older child NIP, I know I would have a hard time prying my eyes away. Heck, I stare now when I see moms NIP. It's totally not coming from a rude place, more of a "Hey, one of my own kind!" place. I really don't think I would be uncomfortable seeing an older child nursing. Definitely intrigued, though. I know nursing a child that age is not for me, but who knows what the future brings? I initially thought I would only nurse until 6mos. Once we hit 6mos, I figured we would go to one year. We are now on month 11 with no end in sight. I think your perspective definitely changes as you advance in your nursing relationship.

Franni

07-12-2006, 09:04 AM

I think at that (2 year-old and older), nursing has very little to do with nutrition and all about emotional security. It's much like how my DD would run to me occasionally for no reason, sit on my lap and then run off. It's almost like a touchstone. I guess that would be for preschoolers also that when faced with new situations or when they just need to reconnect, they come to their mamas to get some comfort.

That said....I too have to raise my hand and say that I would be uncomfortable. I am very pro-bf and believe that there is no expiration date to the breastfeeding relationship, but I agree with what Renrel has said about exposing my child to negative comments and stares from the public. Kids pick up on all this negativity and would wonder why this is bad when they love it. This is a discussion about NIP and not about bf past toddlerhood.

Daniel's Kitty

07-12-2006, 09:18 AM

My son tries his hardest to get in my shirt so it can happen, though I am not sure how to teach him to stop other than to say no and not nurse him.

I tend to feel bad for some of the women nursing toddlers since I know that they are getting weird looks. I already get funny looks if I nip since ds doesn't stay covered anymore, and most people are way off on his age.

The mothers that bother me are the ones that make their child nurse when they want to go to the drinking fountain or want their cup. They seem to nip for shock value.

catmom

07-12-2006, 09:20 AM

It is my opinion that any 3+ year old who simply runs up and pulls on their mother's bra has not been taught limits. Even if I planned to nurse a 3, 4, 5 year old, he would have respect for my body and my boundaries, and behavior like that would be discussed and discouraged.

I don't see anything wrong with nursing an older child, if that's what the mother and child both desire to do, but I do see the value of some compromise when it comes to social pressures, especially since the older child will be cognizant of any rude or ignorant comments passersby might make. It would be as much for his protection as for the 'delicate' sensibilities of those around us.

Marisa, I agree with everything you said here.

I personally would not nurse my DD in public at that age, but I don't particularly care if others do.

SiValleySteph

07-12-2006, 09:40 AM

I tend to feel bad for some of the women nursing toddlers since I know that they are getting weird looks.

FWIW, I have never gotten a weird look or a comment. :cool:

Do you guys really run into so many moms nursing toddlers? I'm still waiting to run into one. Well, my neighbor does nurse until ~3 years old, but I never see her nursing, she just told me about it.

The mothers that bother me are the ones that make their child nurse when they want to go to the drinking fountain or want their cup. They seem to nip for shock value.

Not to pick on you, but who are these mothers (plural)? I wouldn't imagine it's even possible to nurse a toddler who doesn't want to. At least, I can't see how that's possible. My son nurses only when he asks to nurse. If I suggest nursing (like if I'm exhausted and hoping it will help him to fall asleep, not because we're out in public and I'm trying to make a point), he will refuse most of the time b/c it's not what he wants.

NYN

07-12-2006, 10:00 AM

The mothers that bother me are the ones that make their child nurse when they want to go to the drinking fountain or want their cup. They seem to nip for shock value.
omg where do you live? i don't even see people nursing babies in public over here, lol. that is pretty funny.

Renrel

07-12-2006, 10:18 AM

Prudies - No, I do not see myself nursing a 5 yr old at this time, but I also did not see myself nursing an almost 3 yr old so I am hesistant to say what it the cut off. I notice DS seems to nurse less then he used to. Rarely ask for it when I visit him a daycare anymore, but today he asked and I obligied. I think when he moves into preschool next month I may say no because I am not sure if the other kids will think it strange and thus cause him some social issues. We will play it by ear. I have thought that I might try to initiate weaning in his 3rd year, if he does not, but I am not at all certain we will. Given the comfort he gets from it and the closness it provides us I am not willing to just stop because my culture finds it odd. I would stop if I felt it was harmful to me or my child or my family. I expect that the older he gets the less we will NIP. As I said earlier it is not very common to begin with, and usually in family friendly places like a playground or the living room of a home of a friend or family member. And I will not nurse if I see older boys around, particularly teen agers. Maybe they more than anyone need to remember that breast are for more than male pleasure but I don't need to be the one to teach that lesson.

I would probably be a bit uncomfortable and shocked seeing a 5 yr old nursing in public but I would also be interested in the fact that it was happening and wonder why and how that family worked. Sometimes I am glad people do things which make me uncomfortable because it forces me to look at myself and my preconcieved notions.

prudies

07-12-2006, 10:35 AM

FWIW, I have never gotten a weird look or a comment. :cool:

Me neither! And I NIP'ed at over a year. I can't remember when we stopped.

And no, I've never seen any toddlers NIP. I was thinking more of nursing in general.

Ole Miss Bride

07-12-2006, 10:50 AM

I've actually never seen a woman nursing a toddler or an older child.

Prudies, you make a good point about this -

Well, nursing doesn't pose a problem for baby's teeth like a bottle does. There's no physical harm in nursing a child, I just wonder if emotionally it's the best thing.

Renrel, I thought this was a good point, too -
Sometimes I am glad people do things which make me uncomfortable because it forces me to look at myself and my preconcieved notions.

And just for the record, when I said I might feel uncomfortable if I saw a woman nursing an older child in a public place, I did not mean to imply that I don't think women should do that. It's totally their right, and the discomfort is my issue only.

-Betsy

Dally

07-12-2006, 10:50 AM

I've never seen a toddler NIP. I very rarely even see babies NIP...and I live in the "crunchy" PNW! I do always wonder where these shock value NIP moms are.

To answer the question: no, it wouldn't make me uncomfortable. Although I've never seen it (except on National Geographic type shows), I think I would just find it interesting rather than weird or gross. But then, I rarely get uncomfortable by stuff I see, even if I'm not used to it. Guess I am lucky that way.

I'm currently BFing a 14-month-old, but we almost never NIP now because she's way squirmy. I don't know that I could handle BFing a 2+ year old and still maintain modesty. I'm not very talented that way. :o But, who knows what I'll do in the future. When my DD does NIP, I guarantee that I am sensitive to others (and my own modesty!), and, when she's old enough, I'll be sensitive to making sure she doesn't hear negative comments. My guess is that I'll find a quiet place because that is what would make ME comfortable.

ITA with whoever said you can't force a baby/toddler to nurse. I can't even imagine trying! I plan to let my DD wean naturally. I'm sure she'll have no problem letting me know when she no longer wants to nurse.

dbers

07-12-2006, 10:52 AM

I find this During the toddler years, your child learns to separate from you, physically and emotionally. statement by Prudies really interesting. I am getting my MSW and am currently taking a family therapy class in which we discuss attachment issues, etc. Not sure if I have a theory either way, but it is does make me think...

NYN

07-12-2006, 01:02 PM

Mothering Your Nursing Toddler is a really good book that discusses this to some extent. I'm sure Marisa has other suggestions for reading if you are interested.

cocopop

07-12-2006, 01:04 PM

Yes, I would think it was weird if I saw someone NIP a child over, say, 18 months (pulling a random age out of the air).

Honestly, I don't know why. I guess it has to do with what our culture thinks is "normal" and our culture is uneasy about NIP to begin with. I have no problem with NIP as long as the mother and child are totally covered. If the breast is exposed in any way it makes me uncomfortable.

I know it's odd for me to feel that way since I nursed my daughter but again, it has to do with cultural norms and in our culture it is not "normal" to see breasts exposed in that way. OTOH, it's totally normal to see someone's cleavage hanging way out, which probably exposes more than NIP. So weird how that works!

SiValleySteph

07-12-2006, 01:18 PM

I have no problem with NIP as long as the mother and child are totally covered. If the breast is exposed in any way it makes me uncomfortable.

What do you mean by "the mother and chlid are totally covered?" Do you mean the child needs to be under a blanket for you to have no problem with it? :confused:

Believe me, when I NIP'ed with my 21-1/2 mo old yesterday, there was no blanket over him. There was no breast exposed either. One benefit of NIP with a toddler is that they cover any exposure. :p

I don't have a recent picture, but when I nurse, it doesn't look really much different than this picture from one year ago (only DS is maybe 4-5" taller):
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2675/1886/320/lucas_NIP.jpg
I don't see anything offensive about that. No tummy, no breast exposed. In fact, unless you're a mom with a good eye, you probably wouldn't even think or be sure that I was nursing.

I realize the original post was referring to a 3-4 year old (although it can be hard to estimate a child's age) who did not have appropriate limits as to pulling on mom's shirt, etc., but I do want to show it is possible to nurse a toddler in an unoffensive way.

Oh, and yes, my son does talk and "ask for it." :eek:

prudies

07-12-2006, 01:18 PM

Btw, on a lighter note, this reminds me of the picture taken of Carrie-Ann Moss (aka Matrix star) breastfeeding her toddler and walking down the street. I think she looks bad ass, and it totally inspired me when Elliott was in the middle of his growth spurt I-must-nurse-every-twenty-minutes phase and I wanted to take a walk. I was like damn it, I live in San Francisco (and I was walking through Haight Ashbury!). I will just power walk and nurse, no problem!

Here's the pic:

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f136/clanier1/180982424hJkyuC_ph.jpg

ETA: Steph, I didn't see your post! Come on now, don't you have one of you hiking and breastfeeding? Multi-task! And by the way, let me be clear - my toddler did say "other side?" during his morning sessions before he weaned!

Kanga

07-12-2006, 02:33 PM

I would have no problem with it, but I would have a hard time not staring because I have never seen anyone NIP with a toddler, and rarely a baby. Obviously there's a point where a child does become too old to nurse, just not sure what that magic number is. Afterall, I think we can all agree it's not appropriate for a highschool student to still be nursing;) Pulling a number out of thin air, but I'd think somewhere around 5 or 6 is starting to get too old. I guess that's where in my mind I seperate small child from young child.

I just wonder if emotionally it's the best thing.

I have to assume it is (or at least equal to not EN). I forget the exact age, but the world wide weaning average is somewhere around 3.75. Average meaning many women nurse longer than that. So if it was emotionally damaging, wouldn't we have a world full of people with emotional damage?

But if a five year old still needs to breastfeed, doesn't that mean he's immature?

IMHO absolutely not. He's nursing for comfort. IMO it's the same as a 5 year old who needs a hug and kiss because he scraped his knee. It's doing the same thing - providing comfort, love, and affection.

PinkMartini

07-12-2006, 02:37 PM

I have no problems with extended nursing, but I'll be totally honest and say I'd probably feel uncomfortable if I saw an older child nursing in public. That said, my discomfort should have no bearing on what a mom and her kid decide to do, nursing-wise. It's their right, so I'll get over it.

I agree. My aunt nursed my cousin until she was 6 :eek: She was already in 1st grade before she was weaned... I wonder if she went to her school to feed her

BooeyJ2

07-12-2006, 02:50 PM

Ok, let me just start by saying that I have no problems with NIP. I was never as "brave" to just whip it out fully in public (so I mainly stayed in the lounge or whatever in Nordstrom etc) - but keep in mind that my boobs were mammoth (bigger than DD's head) - which meant I needed one arm to hold her and the other arm to clear my boob from her nose to keep her from suffocating ;)

Anyhoo, I just wanted to share my story of one of a time I witnessed NIP. Right after highschool I was working as a waitress. A table came in (to the packed restaurant) and sat down. The son (who was 6!! - yes, I heard them tell another customer that he was 6 after the customer was shocked like me) was yelling out "Mom i'm hungry! I'm HUNGRY! I SAID I'M HUNGRY NOW!!!" and rips/lifts up his moms shirt and just starts sucking away. I was in SHOCK and sorry, but quite grossed out at the fact that he was big enough to ride a bike and wipe his own butt but was nursing. I'm ALL for nursing, but I do think that OVERLY extended nursing relationships do creep me out a bit. Plus what's to say that your kid won't get pissed at you one day and bite your nipple off? ;) Kidding aside, after being around my sisters nursing and myself nursing, I am more comfortable with NIP period...but I don't think i'll ever been comfortable with seeing a kid as old as my niece (who is 6 right now) nursing.

Asha

07-12-2006, 03:00 PM

does anyone remember the older child nursing scene in "a tree grows in brooklyn"? that was pretty funny.

tunibell

07-12-2006, 03:33 PM

Would I feel a little uncomfortable? Probably. But I also think it would be my own hang-up, KWIM?

Honestly, before I had a child, I was uncomfortable with the whole thing - I found nursing in general kind of weird, be it private or public (the girls had been mere playthings for 31 years!). Never in a million years did I think I would love nursing so much, and be so passionate about a woman's right to do it anywhere and anytime. Originally, I figured I'd nurse my daughter to 6 mo and then see what happens; now I'm committed to as long as she and I both want to continue. So I might just be one of those moms nursing a 3 year old in public! :)

ETA - That Carrie-Anne pic is **so** bad ass!!!

jmvan74

07-12-2006, 04:20 PM

yby1

07-12-2006, 04:23 PM

Sarah

07-12-2006, 04:40 PM

I think that having a 5 year old child still breastfeeding is wierd. See, this is a very different statement from "I would be uncomfortable with a 5 year old nursing" IMO.

I would be uncomfortable with that, too, honestly. But that's just because it's not commonly done, and it's odd because it's unusual. But my personal hangups are not important, and there's tons of public things that make me uncomfortable which I don't think are weird. Weird is a judgment, IMO, and judging EN is out of line. I think all these stories about how old is too old are just unfair- the large majority of older nurslings are independent and respect their moms' boundaries.

Again, I ask, can anyone state a good reason that nursing until 3, 4, 5, or even 6 is a bad idea or dangerous, wrong, or harmful? Yes, it may make us freaked out, but rationally we have to admit that's because we don't see it often. Is our own or someone else's squidgy feeling about something a good reason to label it "weird?"

Marisa

07-12-2006, 04:46 PM

I agree. My aunt nursed my cousin until she was 6 :eek: She was already in 1st grade before she was weaned... I wonder if she went to her school to feed her

This is humorous, I suppose, but probably not realistic. The vast majority of children who wean at a later age (3, 4, 5, 6) are not nursing like infants, and they're not doing it for hunger. Maybe they do it before bed. Maybe it's every couple of days. Maybe it's a comfort thing when they've had a particularly bad day.

booey's story is also not indicative of what I'd consider a 'normal' extended nursing relationship. When you see things like that, I'd have to say that there are other factors at work, besides the extended nursing.

It's all about setting appropriate limits and what a child is old enough to understand. Maybe the parent doesn't understand appropriate limits either; we all know people like that in our daily lives, it manifests itself as verbal diarrhea or getting involved with the wrong men, or whatever.

I'm pretty sure that most of you on here would consider me 'normal' and emotionally well adjusted... I don't know if your opinion would change if you knew that I'd been nursed until I was 5. Or maybe you kinda figured that already. :D

Sarah

07-12-2006, 04:47 PM

I can honestly say that I would not want to see an older toddler NIP. I did once and it grossed me out. The child basically pulled his mom's nipple out of the side of her tank top. Eww. He was probably 4. I'm sure it's just because I was not raised in a family that nursed at all. I nursed for 11 months and took slack from family.
Okay, fine, I understand that. I might be uncomfortable too. But we have to go farther, I think, and ask why we are uncomfortable, and work to get past it. Because getting more people to nurse their kids, even for a year, would be ana amzing step in saving this country over a billion dollars a year and in making women and children a lot healthier. We cannot let simple feelings of discomfort (however valid they are) get in the way, and stop there.

prudies

07-12-2006, 04:56 PM

I'm pretty sure that most of you on here would consider me 'normal' and emotionally well adjusted...

Says you! :p

Again, I ask, can anyone state a good reason that nursing until 3, 4, 5, or even 6 is a bad idea or dangerous, wrong, or harmful? I was trying to think of a good one! Well, not dangerous, wrong or harmful. I just know that of the small number of people I know nursing a child at least 4, I think many of them do not set limits. However, it's certainly fair to say that they don't set limits in all areas, so whether or not they stopped nursing is besides the point.

This was a great point:
He's nursing for comfort. IMO it's the same as a 5 year old who needs a hug and kiss because he scraped his knee. It's doing the same thing - providing comfort, love, and affection.

I guess my issue then, if there is one, is not with breastfeeding at all. What I've noticed is a certain percentage of the "AP crowd" (for lack of a better term, but you know what I mean) who is all child-centered, and sets no limits, and treats their toddler and then child like he or she is still an infant - whatever the child wants, the child gets, including breastfeeding in whatever manner the child wants, whenever the child wants it. It's not everyone who considers themselves AP, but it is a noticeable chunk of that community.

prudies

07-12-2006, 04:58 PM

I was in SHOCK and sorry, but quite grossed out at the fact that he was big enough to ride a bike and wipe his own butt but was nursing.

My, what a lovely image.

Marisa

07-12-2006, 05:04 PM

Kanga

07-12-2006, 05:24 PM

What I've noticed is a certain percentage of the "AP crowd" (for lack of a better term, but you know what I mean) who is all child-centered, and sets no limits, and treats their toddler and then child like he or she is still an infant - whatever the child wants, the child gets, including breastfeeding in whatever manner the child wants, whenever the child wants it.

I think this why a lot of people view EN relationships as bad or negative, when in fact it's showing up in nursing, but that's not the root of the problem. I would never allow my child to just run up, lift up my shirt and demand to be nursed (assuming they're old enough to understand that) any more than I'd allow them to run up to me and snatch a sippy out of my hand without saying a word.

chandy

07-12-2006, 05:46 PM

does anyone remember the older child nursing scene in "a tree grows in brooklyn"? that was pretty funny.

I loved that part Asha! Back when I thought my DD would never wean, my mom and I used to joke that I'd have to "Give her the Gussie" at some point! I'd say if your kid weans straight to coffee, they were nursing too long.

Daniel's Kitty

07-12-2006, 06:12 PM

SiValleySteph It was one woman that I saw trying to make her child nurse. I am not sure if it worked, I know ds would bite if I tried to force him to nurse. This was a while ago though.

I think I notice funny looks since my mom points them out to try to convivce me to go nurse on a toilet, so even if she isn't around I notice.

Dreshny

07-12-2006, 07:48 PM

I see 3-year-olds nurse all the time...at API and LLL meetings, which I think count as "private" because they are supposed to be safe forums. Otherwise, I've never seen an older toddler NIP.

Um, I just was asked to film a segment for a national TV show nursing my 13-month-old DS very much in public, on the subway. I did it the way I always do it, in a nursing tank, in his carrier. Believe me, you can't tell I'm nursing unless you know I am. (And yes, I've also done it walking down the street, but I'm WAY less obvious than Carrie-Ann Moss.) But especially after reading this thread, I'm beginning to wonder if the segment is going to get weird publicity because I'm nursing an "older" baby.

prudies

07-13-2006, 05:03 AM

I doubt your nursing a 13 month old will be considered all that "weird."

The thing is, we all agree that there is an age at which it would be "weird." Is it 4? Is it 5? Is it 10? Is it 18?

It's at some point for all of us, we just have a different point, based on what's "normal" based on the culture we grew up with and are now a part of.

LIZNKEITH

07-13-2006, 05:26 AM

I think at a certain point (maybe 3 y/o for me…) it’s important for children to learn to comfort themselves in different ways and with different people. I think it’s a part of becoming an independent little person.

postkalidurga

07-13-2006, 05:42 AM

I've only seen EN at LLL meetings as well. One woman was BF her... I think 3 year old but he looked 5 to me and I was a bit skeeved out. Honestly, my SIL nursing my nephew at 1 year skeeved me out. He was big for his age, but come on - obviously my issue. I do know though that if I saw it more often I would get over it pretty quick which is partly why I never bother hiding when I NIP now.

There are others at LLL that EN (4 and 5 year olds) but it is usually part of a bed-time routine - a way to reconnect at the end of the day. Both kids seem really well adjusted and the mothers do give lots of appropriate guidance in other areas from what I can see from the meetings I've attended. Has made the possibility much more realistic for me and my ds.

Franni

07-13-2006, 07:48 AM

I will throw this out there for the discussion, but I guess the only reason why I would say it's "wrong" (again, I am not talking about a 2 year. I am thinking more in terms of a 4-5 yo or older.) is that I would feel that the child has not developed any other coping skills other than nursing. That the child has no other way to connect to his/her mom than to nurse. True, nursing is a very deep experience, but unless the child is able to find other ways to express a connection, wouldn't EN really just "harm" the child? At 4-5 and older, he should have sufficient language to talk about what makes him sad, what frightens him. He/she should be able to ask to be cuddle a little longer because he is feeling bad. Nursing would seem more like a crutch like a pacifier.

PinkMartini

07-13-2006, 10:10 AM

The thing is, we all agree that there is an age at which it would be "weird." Is it 4? Is it 5? Is it 10? Is it 18?

It's at some point for all of us, we just have a different point, based on what's "normal" based on the culture we grew up with and are now a part of.

Good point.... I was thinking about that last night, what would be the 'cut off' age for most people? Since 6 years old (my cousin) wasn't that big of a deal, it seems, to people here, what about 10 years old? I mean, if it's a comfort thing for the kid, 10 year old's still need comfort sometimes, right?

gizzyntaz

07-13-2006, 10:35 AM

I mean, if it's a comfort thing for the kid, 10 year old's still need comfort sometimes, right?

I think you would be hard-pressed to find a 10 year old that still wants to nurse, and a compliant mom, for that matter. Even the crunchiest of moms have their limits, and even the neediest of children bow to societal pressure eventually, and find other methods of comfort/nutrition.

I nurse my 18 month old in public, regularly. He's a big boy, over 33 pounds and tall, so he might pass for older. I would guess that most of the time, people probably don't realize that I am nursing him. I just had a good friend comment that she has never seen "anything" when I nurse DS and I nurse in front of her and her family ALL the time. The longer you do it the more efficient/quick/discreet it tends to become. Besides, the bigger the kid is the more he/she hides the details.

but I guess the only reason why I would say it's "wrong" (again, I am not talking about a 2 year. I am thinking more in terms of a 4-5 yo or older.) is that I would feel that the child has not developed any other coping skills other than nursing. That the child has no other way to connect to his/her mom than to nurse.

I think that a 4 or 5 year old who still nurses probably has plenty of coping mechanisms and ways of relating with his/her mom. Nursing is just one of the methods. We all carry "a bag of tricks" for helping our kids. Sometimes a situation requires a verbal response, sometimes a hug, sometimes a kiss, a song, a joke, and for those of us who do it, sometimes nursing.

I would give major kudos to any mom who has the patience to nurse a child who needs it to 4, 5 or 6. More power to her if she's comfortable doing it in public!

BooeyJ2

07-13-2006, 10:38 AM

Good point.... I was thinking about that last night, what would be the 'cut off' age for most people? Since 6 years old (my cousin) wasn't that big of a deal, it seems, to people here, what about 10 years old? I mean, if it's a comfort thing for the kid, 10 year old's still need comfort sometimes, right?

I think 10 is way too old. Keep in mind that kids go to school and like it or not, they learn all kinds of things like "boobies", "weiners", (body parts in general) etc as early as age 4 or 5 and as funny and/or gross things. Can you imagine the teasing that would go on if schoolmates found out that "10 year old Johnny still sucks on his mommy's boobies"? My niece is 6 and my nephew is 9 and I can't even imagine them still nursing at their ages. If it's for comfort....i'm 28 and still need comforting from time to time....should I go nurse on my mom?? LOL. Also, people would be apalled if they saw a 6, 7, 8, 9, 10+ year old walking around with a pacifier in his/her mouth. If it's for comfort and not nutrition, it's the same thing in my opinion.

Marisa

07-13-2006, 11:23 AM

Every child is born with a 'sucking' reflex or instinct, it's innate because it's how they eat, to begin with. And every child loses that impulse at some point in their development, most by the time they are preschool age or thereabout. A 10-year-old does not have that same instinct to associate comfort with nursing.

cocopop

07-13-2006, 12:18 PM

What do you mean by "the mother and chlid are totally covered?" Do you mean the child needs to be under a blanket for you to have no problem with it? :confused:

No, sorry I didn't mean the entire child had to be covered. LOL

Honestly it doesn't matter if they are covered as long as I don't see the boob hanging out like the picture of Carrie-Ann Moss. I personally find that offensive and inappropriate. Maybe I'm just an uber-prude. :o

maggieb

07-13-2006, 12:43 PM

I am still nursing my one year old and my 2.5 yr old and if you knew me IRL you wouldn't think I was weird or crunchy or abnormal in any way.

I don't NIP b/c I have very large breasts and I have to support it while she nurses with one of my hands. I certainly don't find it offensive to see other mothers nurse their children/toddlers. However, I have never seen someone nursing a child over 2 in public.

I used to teach in Dallas and one mother came in to talk with her son's teachers before school started b/c he was still nursing and she was concerned about weaning him. She wanted to come in to school to nurse him during the day. This particular child was extremely overweight and IMO breastfeeding had not a thing to do with it. This particular mother had set absolutely no limits with her child and he had access to whatever he wanted, whenever he wanted. So, he ate, nursed, watched TV all the time. Kindergarten started and guess what? He was fine. Teachers told mom that it might be best to see how the child did without her coming up to school to nurse him and he was fine.

My 2.5 yr old nurses when she wakes up in the morning, so hardly anyone even knows that she still nurses. Even my own mother didn't know until I told her. Helena has never asked to NIP and if she did I would refuse her, but I don't think others should.