CC Book Club-Wicked:The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West

[CCBookClub]

The discussion questions are being posted to provoke thought while reading the novel. I'll come in here and randomly post more questions until we officially open this thread for discussion around the 25th of the month. FYI....All these questions are found in the back of the book in the Reader's Group Guide.

Please do not post any responces at this time. :D

1. Gregory Maguire fashioned the name of Elphaba (pronounced EL-fa-ba) from the initials of the author of The Wizard of Oz, Lyman Frank Baum - L-F-B - Elphaba. Wicked derives some of its power from the popularity of its source material. Does meeting up with familiar characters and famous fictional situations require more patience and effort on the part of the reader, or less?

2. The novel opens with a scene in which the Witch overhears Dorothy, the Lion, the Scarecrow, and the Tin Woodman gossiping about her. She's "possessed by demons," they say. "She was castrated at birth...she was an abused child...she's a dangerous tyrant." How does this scene set the stage for the story, and what themes does it introduce?

[CCBookClub]

ONLY POSTING TO PROVOKE THOUGHT! PLEASE DO NOT POST RESPONCES YET! :D
3. What is the significance of Elphaba's green skin? What are the rewards of being so different, and what are the drawbacks? In Oz -- and in the real world -- what are the meanings associated with the color green, and are any of them pertinent to Elphaba's character?

4. One of Wicked's key themes is the nature and roots of evil. What are the theories that Maguire sets out? Is Elphaba evil? Are her actions evil? Is there such a thing as evil, a free-floating power in the universe like time or gravity? Or is evil an attribute of the actions of human beings? (Hint: Turn to pages 231 and 370 for scenes that will draw you into the conversation.)

[Chris~n~Jen]

Posting more thought questions. We open for discussion later this week! :D

5. The first section of the book ends powerfully but enigmatically when the young Elphaba is discovered under the dock, cradled in the paws of a magical beast as if sitting on a throne. How do you interpret this scene, and what do you think it foretells, if anything?

6. The place of Animals in society is an important theme in Wicked. Why does Elphaba make it her mission to fight for Animal rights? How else does social class define Oz, and why?

7. Galinda reasoned that because she was beautiful she was significant, though what she signified, and to whom, was not clear to her yet" (page 65). Discuss the transformation of Galinda, shallow Shiz student, to Glinda the Good Witch. How does she change -- and by how much? What is her eventual "significance," both in Oz and in the story?

8. Discuss the importance of the Clock of the Time Dragon. Does the Clock simply reflect events, or does it shape them? Why is it significant that Elphaba was born inside it? That Turtle Heart was killed by it? What revelations does it offer to Elphaba and the reader when she reencounters it at the end of the book?

[Chris~n~Jen]

9. Discuss the importance of the Clock of the Time Dragon. Does the Clock simply reflect events, or does it shape them? Why is it significant that Elphaba was born inside it? That Turtle Heart was killed by it? What revelations does it offer to Elphaba and the reader when she reencounters it at the end of the book?

10. Discuss the ways in which Elphaba's determination and willfulness lend purpose and order to her life, and the cost of being such a strong character. Elphaba isn't the only strong female character in Wicked. How do Nessarose, Glinda, and Sarima deal with the issues of power and control? Where do each of them draw strength from? Is the world of Maguire's Oz more or less patriarchal than millennial America?

11. Wicked is an epic story, built along the lines of a Shakespearean or Greek tragedy, in which the seeds of Elphaba's destiny are all sown early in the novel. How much of Elphaba's career is predestined, and how much choice does she have? Do you think that she was no more than a puppet of the Wizard or Madame Morrible, as she fears?

12. Early in their unlikely friendship, Galinda catches a glimpse of Elphaba and thinks she "looked like something between an animal and an Animal, like something more than life but not quite Life" (pages 78-79). Discuss the dual, and sometimes contradictory, nature of Elphaba's character. Why does Elphaba insist that she doesn't have a soul?

13. Who or what is Yackle? Where does she appear in the story, and what role does she serve in Elphaba's life? Is she good or evil -- both or neither?

14. Was Elphaba's story essentially a tragedy or a triumph? Did she fail at every major endeavor, and thus fail at life; or because she refused to give up or change to suit the opinions of others, was her life a success? Is there a possibility that Dorothy's "baptismal splash" redeemed Elphaba on her deathbed, or was this the final indignity in a life of miserable mistakes?

Open for Posting!!!!!

[Chris~n~Jen]

Ok, I fully intended to do my homework and have answers to the questions prepared ahead of time, but didn't happen. So here are my thoughts quickly. I hope we have some good discussions on this book. I'm also anxious to see what all of your comments and views are. I'm sure I didn't read as deeply into the book as I could have and I'll be interested to hear opinions that I might not have thought of. :D

1. Gregory Maguire fashioned the name of Elphaba (pronounced EL-fa-ba) from the initials of the author of The Wizard of Oz, Lyman Frank Baum - L-F-B - Elphaba. Wicked derives some of its power from the popularity of its source material. Does meeting up with familiar characters and famous fictional situations require more patience and effort on the part of the reader, or less?

I thought it required more patience to read the book knowing the Wizard of Oz. I was constinatly trying to figure out how these characters were going to end up in the version I knew. So I had to sit back and try to be patient and see how it would all unfold.
2. The novel opens with a scene in which the Witch overhears Dorothy, the Lion, the Scarecrow, and the Tin Woodman gossiping about her. She's "possessed by demons," they say. "She was castrated at birth...she was an abused child...she's a dangerous tyrant." How does this scene set the stage for the story, and what themes does it introduce?

I actually thought the opening scene made me think her childhood was much worse than I ended up thinking it was.

3. What is the significance of Elphaba's green skin? What are the rewards of being so different, and what are the drawbacks? In Oz -- and in the real world -- what are the meanings associated with the color green, and are any of them pertinent to Elphaba's character?

When I think of green, I think of nature. So I guess the signifigance (for me) is that she was very intune to nature and animals.

4. One of Wicked's key themes is the nature and roots of evil. What are the theories that Maguire sets out? Is Elphaba evil? Are her actions evil? Is there such a thing as evil, a free-floating power in the universe like time or gravity? Or is evil an attribute of the actions of human beings? (Hint: Turn to pages 231 and 370 for scenes that will draw you into the conversation.)

I don't believe that Elphaba was evil. I don't think a truly evil person would have the ability to love. And she did feel love. I feel that in this case her actions could be seen as evil but not necessarily her. I think she wanted to be thought of as more evil than she really was.

I'll be back later to answer more and to comment on anybody else who has posted. Gotta sneak in and out of here while trying to actually get some work done. :p

[IrisHope]

I haven't read it yet but would love to know if you recommend this book!

[Astara]

1. I also thought it required more patience.. It was hard reading a different perspective on the characters I already thought I knew.

2. I think it lets the reader begin to feel some compassion for Elphaba.. going into the story you're aware that something had to happen to make her that way.. she wasnt just a wicked old witch without reason as she was in the movie.

3. Her green skin showed that she just want going to be an ordinary person..maybe even be a bit out there. I think the rewards are, it taught her to be dependant and to think for herself. It also gave her a lot of compassion for other characters who were in a sense, like her, broken to some extent. Also Jealousy is the color most often associated with green. I think it showed that Elphaba was somewhat jealous of people who could have "normal" lives and she was obviously jealous of her sister.

4. I dont think Elphaba was evil at all. I think in a way, towards the end she wanted people to think of her as a little evil but also as a little heroic. To me, as I got more into this book, it showed that there is no pure evil & there is no pure good. Instead there's a nice shade of grey where good goes along with evil and vice versa.

5. I think it foretells how she is able to get along with beasts..

6. I think she makes it her mission, because it doesnt seem that anyone else really cares.. and she does. It seems the higher the class the less compassion for Animals.

7. I think she is def. less judgemental of others as a result of the frienship she and elphaba shared. I dont think she changed all that much though. I think she was important to the people she helped. obviosly in Oz she helps dorothy to find her way home. In the story she has the shoes removed from munchkinland in order to keep the land & people safe.

8. I was a bit confused on the whole time clock concept.. I think it told what was going to happen in the future... but i cant be sure.

[Astara]

thats all I can answer for now but.. I thought this was a wonderful book(even though there were some things that flew over my head)!!

[Chris~n~Jen]

I haven't read it yet but would love to know if you recommend this book!

I have to say that in the almost end (on page 372 of 406), I have enjoyed this book. Although the beginning was really slow and a lot of times it seemed over my head. There seems to be a lot of symbolizm in the book. So if you like that kind of thing, then this book is great! But if your looking for an "easy" read, this certainly isn't it. I found myself re-reading several parts because I just felt like I had no idea what was going on. Just my opinion FWIW! :D

[Nikker]

Well I am way behind...I really liked this book so I am suprised that I didn't finish it!

[IrisHope]

I have to say that in the almost end (on page 372 of 406), I have enjoyed this book. Although the beginning was really slow and a lot of times it seemed over my head. There seems to be a lot of symbolizm in the book. So if you like that kind of thing, then this book is great! But if your looking for an "easy" read, this certainly isn't it. I found myself re-reading several parts because I just felt like I had no idea what was going on. Just my opinion FWIW! :D

Yes, thank you for your opinion!

[Chris~n~Jen]

3. Her green skin showed that she just want going to be an ordinary person..maybe even be a bit out there. I think the rewards are, it taught her to be dependant and to think for herself. It also gave her a lot of compassion for other characters who were in a sense, like her, broken to some extent. Also Jealousy is the color most often associated with green. I think it showed that Elphaba was somewhat jealous of people who could have "normal" lives and she was obviously jealous of her sister.

Ohh see, I hadn't even thought of the jealousy thing. I think this makes perfect sense.

8. I was a bit confused on the whole time clock concept.. I think it told what was going to happen in the future... but i cant be sure.

ITA! I was and still am completely confused by this whole time clock thing. Although I don't think it told what was going to happen in the future but rather the present and past. (At least I don't remember any scenes that involved the future). I took the original clock "play" in the beginning chapters about the guy with the woman and her daughter to be something that was happening in the present. Apparently so did the town people because they tried to kill them because of it. Then the "play" he showed Elphaba where her mother gets pregnant with her was definatly the past. I can't remember any "plays" fortelling the future but I could be wrong. Still I didn't catch the significance of the clock or why Elphaba was born in it and Turtle Heart killed by it.

[Chris~n~Jen]

Yes, thank you for your opinion!

Your very welcome! :D

[Astara]

ITA! I was and still am completely confused by this whole time clock thing. Although I don't think it told what was going to happen in the future but rather the present and past. (At least I don't remember any scenes that involved the future). I took the original clock "play" in the beginning chapters about the guy with the woman and her daughter to be something that was happening in the present. Apparently so did the town people because they tried to kill them because of it. Then the "play" he showed Elphaba where her mother gets pregnant with her was definatly the past. I can't remember any "plays" fortelling the future but I could be wrong. Still I didn't catch the significance of the clock or why Elphaba was born in it and Turtle Heart killed by it.


Actually, I dont think it fortells the future either! I got so confused by it that I had forgotten what actually happened in the plays! lol. And he said that the future (that part of the play) "hadnt been written yet" or something right? But still, I dont get it either.. maybe somebody does!

[Astara]

10. I think it gave purpose and order to her life by giving her meaning to her life.

11. I don't think it was predestined.. I didnt think she was a puppet of the two as she had feared..

12. I wasnt quite sure as to why she didnt think she had a soul. Maybe because she wasnt religious?

13. I didn't get yackle either.. I think that yackle is neither good nor bad but just there?

14. I thought this story in many ways was a tragedy. Elphaba was so misunderstood and nothing ever went the way it was supposed to. I do think it was a triumph in a small aspect though just because she was able to stay true to herself no matter what. I think the splash was the last indignity. I felt so bad for elphie! :O( The whole time I kept hoping she would get to stay alive and have some kind of happiness.

[Astara]

IrisHope I agree with Chris~n~Jen.. its hard to get into and is a more complicated read.. but once you do get into it, it's really worth it. You definitley won't look at the wizard of the oz in the same way again~

[ajlanden]

I am going to answer before reading the rest of the responses....

1. Personally, I think it required less. Because I kinda knew where the characters would end up, I was able to keep reading because I was intrigued on how they would get there. If I didn't feel some attachment to them, I might've given up early on.

2.
As far as what theme does it introduce, I think begining the book this way really sets the stage for how misunderstood Elphaba was from them moment she was born. It is like she never had a chance to overcome the unfortunate circumstances of her entire life. I do think that begining the book that way made me think that somehow Dorothy and friends would play a larger role in the plot/theme. Until the end of her life, they really didn't. Not really a good thing or bad, it just threw me off a little bit.

3.
I thought of the "green with envy" connotation. I do think that Elphabab could be considered a little bit envious of people with "normal" lives, although I don't think should would admit it. The color green can also be associated with life and growth. When looking at Elphaba's life you can see how this can seem to be a bit paradoxical. But, I think that is what Elphaba saw as her goal...to help Oz be a better, fair place to live and grow in.

4.
I don't think El. was evil. In fact, quite the opposite. As I said before, I think that many of her actions were for what she saw as the betterment of OZ. Even when she murdered the one lady (can't remember her name), she saw that it was just because of the "evil" in that lady herself. I do think she was a little "off-her-rocker" at the end though and lacked compassion for the people around her.

5.
Umm, I don't remember that part....pgncy brain, I guess.

6.
This was one theme, that I didn't feel like I quiet grasped. I feel like I got a really surface level understanding of this. I hope someone can shead some more light on it. But I do feel like El. understoond the plight of the Animals because of how she was presecuted throughout her life. I think social class defines Oz greatly. I wonder if this has to do that the Wizard is not from that world...does he create this strong division of social classes or has been that way?? Hmmmm......

BBL with more!!!!

[Astara]

I like how you guys, Chrisn~n~Jen & ajlanden, brought up how the color green can also be associated with life, growth, & nature as well. ITA!

[vee05]

hiya ladies......im still reading.....but its getting good :)

[maxandmolly]

I read this book years ago when I lived in California. It took me ages to get into it-as others ahve said, it is not a light, easy read! I may have to go do a skim-through to actually answer some of the deeper questions-but I always saw it as a political analogy from beginning to end, Animals, Clock of the Time Dragon, Nessarose, the shoes, Shell, Glinda. It took more than one read for me to really feel like I 'got' it.
Has anyone read the new one, Son of a Witch?

[Astara]

It took more than one read for me to really feel like I 'got' it. Has anyone read the new one, Son of a Witch?

Maybe I will re-read this book sometime as well. I haven't gotten it yet, but i'm really curious as to what happens to Liir. I am seriously thinking of picking it up~

[mili04]

I've been busy at work today, trying to get ready for being away next week. Here are my thoughts on the first few questions. I'll come back to answer the others later.

1. I think it required less patience. Of course, I am only familiar with the movie version of the Wizard of Oz, and I know there were several books in the series. Reading this actually made me want to read those books and learn more about the other characters.

2. In the movie, there is a clear divide between good and evil. Wicked blurs that line for us, especially with the good witch and the wicked witch. Glinda, while still beautiful, is portrayed as self-involved and a good-deed-doer somewhat by accident. Elphaba seems a less repulsive-looking and has a good heart.

3. The comments by Dorothy and her companions in the opening scene re-inforce the ideas we already have about Elphaba. Then we get Elphaba’s reaction, and a glimpse of how she tries to face the judgements people make of her.

4. Having green skin makes Elphaba stand out, and people immediately form opinions of her because of it. My first thought is that jealousy is associated with the color green. However, I don’t see her having a jealous personality. Although her skin color has been the root of many of her troubles, I’m not sure she would want to change it if she could.

5. The nature of evil and its roots are discussed several times in the book, with characters disagreeing. On page 231 (of my book), they are talking about which came first, evil or good. One character says evil always comes first in the folk tales. In the character of Elphaba, Maguire sets up this situation. She is born with sharp teeth that she uses to bite people and tear things apart. Later in her life, she loses those sharp teeth and the good side of her emerges. I disagree with Avaric’s comment, “Evil isn’t doing bad things, it’s feeling bad about them afterward.” There are many evil things in this world done in the name of good, but that doesn’t make them less evil. I don’t think it’s safe to say evil can be judged by the person committing the evil act.

6. I don’t really get the significance of the clock dragon. I agree it doesn’t predict the future. It seems to only record the past and the present. Each person makes their own future.

[mili04]

When I think of green, I think of nature. So I guess the signifigance (for me) is that she was very intune to nature and animals.
The color green can also be associated with life and growth. When looking at Elphaba's life you can see how this can seem to be a bit paradoxical. But, I think that is what Elphaba saw as her goal...to help Oz be a better, fair place to live and grow in.

This is a really interesting thought. I didn't pick up on the green = life connotation while I was reading, but I think you may be right in your assessment. In a way, Elphaba's fight was for the life of Animals, for their right to be treated with the respect and dignity they deserved.

[MaineBelle]

Yay - I finished. Before I answer the questions, I am going to put down my general thoughts.

- I really enjoyed the book. I like how it took this story, The Wizard of Oz, where everyone know sabout the good witch and the wicked witch and turned it around. So, Glinda, sure she was good, but she was very shallow. And Elphaba, who was supposedly 'wicked' turned out to be this intellectual activist.

- My favorite part was when they were in college. You really get to see their true identity during that time.

- I felt that towards the end of the book, Elphaba does become this mean spinster. She is mean to the children, and the Sarima's sisters, she has no love for Liir. Maybe her hard life was just wearing her down. Did anyone notice that in the last section the author no longer refers to her as Elphaba, but rather as "the witch".

- I didn't understand the flying monkeys and what role they played.

[ajlanden]

14. I thought this story in many ways was a tragedy. Elphaba was so misunderstood and nothing ever went the way it was supposed to. I do think it was a triumph in a small aspect though just because she was able to stay true to herself no matter what. I think the splash was the last indignity. I felt so bad for elphie! :O( The whole time I kept hoping she would get to stay alive and have some kind of happiness.


Isn't it funny how much sympathy you end up having for Elphie? She really does become a sympathetic character. Who would've thought I would be cheering for her rather than Dorothy.

[Astara]

I really liked this book too. I did notice he called her the witch in the last section. I thought she got all spinster like too which I completely understood. After having such a hard life I probably would have been one too! ;O)

Did anyone else get that she was jealous of her sister for getting most of the love & attention from her father? It also seemed like she was jealous of her sister when she saw the shoes their father made for Nessarose.

ajlanden Yes, it really is funny how much sympathy you end up having! I was looking at dorothy as more the villan this time and hoping for the witch to win!!

[MaineBelle]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astara

14. I thought this story in many ways was a tragedy. Elphaba was so misunderstood and nothing ever went the way it was supposed to. I do think it was a triumph in a small aspect though just because she was able to stay true to herself no matter what. I think the splash was the last indignity. I felt so bad for elphie! :O( The whole time I kept hoping she would get to stay alive and have some kind of happiness.


Isn't it funny how much sympathy you end up having for Elphie? She really does become a sympathetic character. Who would've thought I would be cheering for her rather than Dorothy.

Did you feel like she became less sympathetic as the book went on? I loved her during her time at Shiz and when she was having her relationship with Fiyero, but when she was staying at Vinkus I had a tougher time empathizing with her. She seemed meaner there. No, just me?

I was touched when she and Liir were talking about what they wished for, and she ended up saying "a soul" and Lirr said "a father".

[Chris~n~Jen]

I finally finished reading last night. It took me forever to read the last 30 pages. Just to tired, I guess!

Did anyone notice that in the last section the author no longer refers to her as Elphaba, but rather as "the witch".
I did notice that the author stopped referring to Elphaba and only as the witch at the end. I think it was to signify her hardening. I don't think she thought of herself as Elphaba anymore. I think when when she created another persona for herself (the witch) it enabled her to treat people in a way that she may not have had she still been acting as Elphaba. I hope that makes sense to someone other than myself. :rolleyes:

Did anyone else get that she was jealous of her sister for getting most of the love & attention from her father? It also seemed like she was jealous of her sister when she saw the shoes their father made for Nessarose
She was most definatly jealous of her sister. Or at least the affection and attention that she got from both her father and Nanny. I would also believe that her mother (until her death) also gave Nessarose a lot of affection. Given that both her mother and father loved Turtle Heart so much and they both viewed Nassarose as a product of that love.

[ajlanden]

[QUOTE=MaineBelle]Did you feel like she became less sympathetic as the book went on? I loved her during her time at Shiz and when she was having her relationship with Fiyero, but when she was staying at Vinkus I had a tougher time empathizing with her. She seemed meaner there. No, just me?

[QUOTE]

I totally agree that she was meaner (more evil) near the end. In fact, every since Fiyero was murdered, it was like you knew she would never recover. I still felt that she was more of a victim of her life (sounds very much like a Greek tragedy). I felt sorry for her.

[MLA]

I read the book about a year ago, so I’m only going to answer some of the questions.

1. Gregory Maguire fashioned the name of Elphaba (pronounced EL-fa-ba) from the initials of the author of The Wizard of Oz, Lyman Frank Baum - L-F-B - Elphaba. Wicked derives some of its power from the popularity of its source material. Does meeting up with familiar characters and famous fictional situations require more patience and effort on the part of the reader, or less?

Well, I if I’d read the Wizard of Oz instead of just having seen the movie, it may have been something that required a lot of patience, but for me, no, I didn’t find it to be too trying.


3. What is the significance of Elphaba's green skin? What are the rewards of being so different, and what are the drawbacks? In Oz -- and in the real world -- what are the meanings associated with the color green, and are any of them pertinent to Elphaba's character?

I associate green with envy – I thought she was envious of her sister and of all the other “normal” children around her. I think it’s interesting that a lot of people picked up on the green=nature thing. It didn’t even cross my mind when reading the book, but it makes a lot of sense.

4. One of Wicked's key themes is the nature and roots of evil. What are the theories that Maguire sets out? Is Elphaba evil? Are her actions evil? Is there such a thing as evil, a free-floating power in the universe like time or gravity? Or is evil an attribute of the actions of human beings?

I don’t think Elphaba is evil. I think Maquire sets out a very relativistic view of what is “good” and what is “evil,” a view I subscribe to, myself.


6. The place of Animals in society is an important theme in Wicked. Why does Elphaba make it her mission to fight for Animal rights? How else does social class define Oz, and why?

I think that Elphaba identifies with animals. She feels as though she’s been treated as a second class citizen because of her skin, and animals are also treated that way. She fights for their rights as a way of fighting for herself.


8. Discuss the importance of the Clock of the Time Dragon. Does the Clock simply reflect events, or does it shape them? Why is it significant that Elphaba was born inside it? That Turtle Heart was killed by it? What revelations does it offer to Elphaba and the reader when she reencounters it at the end of the book?

Lord, I had no idea what the Clock of the Time Dragon was all about. It confused me!

14. Was Elphaba's story essentially a tragedy or a triumph? Did she fail at every major endeavor, and thus fail at life; or because she refused to give up or change to suit the opinions of others, was her life a success? Is there a possibility that Dorothy's "baptismal splash" redeemed Elphaba on her deathbed, or was this the final indignity in a life of miserable mistakes?

I don’t think you can say that Elphaba’s life was entirely a tragedy nor entirely a triumph. What can be said is that she was brave, though not always wise.