Parental notification laws do not decrease abortion rates [Archive]

ysolde

03-06-2006, 08:59 AM

For all the passions they generate, laws that require minors to notify their parents or get permission to have an abortion do not appear to have produced the sharp drop in teenage abortion rates that some advocates hoped for, an analysis by The New York Times shows.

- - -

Abortion rates have been dropping nationwide since the mid-1980's, most precipitously for teenagers. But in three states — Arizona, Idaho and Tennessee — the percentage of pregnant minors who had abortions rose slightly after the consent laws went into effect.

(Even more disturbing)

But providers interviewed in 10 states with parental involvement laws all said that of the minors who came into their clinics, parents were more often the ones pushing for an abortion, even against the wishes of their daughters.

"I see far more parents trying to pressure their daughters to have one," said Jane Bovard, owner of the Red River Women's Clinic in Fargo, N.D., a state where a minor needs consent from both parents. "As a parent myself, I can understand. But I say to parents, 'You force her to have this abortion, and I can tell you that within the next six months she's going to be pregnant again.' "

Renee Chelian, director of Northland Family Planning Centers in the Detroit area, said she had had to call the police on parents who wanted their daughters to have abortions, "because they threaten physical violence on the kids."

Ms. Chelian added that the laws might have unseen effects, including driving some teenagers to try to abort their pregnancies on their own.

"Kids talk among themselves," she said. "When we tell them they need to go to court or tell their parents, that's when they tell us there's a Web site" for chemicals or herbal remedies that claims to induce abortions.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/06/national/06abortion.html?hp&ex=1141707600&en=7531f9a750177ef3&ei=5094&partner=homepage

So, I'm thinking this might not be the way to go.

flygirl

03-06-2006, 09:08 AM

Interesting. There's always the argument that abortion for minors should include parental consent, just as with any medical procedure. But if the bottom line on both sides is to reduce abortion rates, then where do you draw the line? At ideology or practicality?

(No question about how I feel, just throwing this out for debate.)

maxandmolly

03-06-2006, 09:09 AM

So, I'm thinking this might not be the way to go.
Well that's an understatement. How much will it take, how many unproductive laws serving the opposite of their intended purpose? Ugh.

Scooter

03-06-2006, 11:59 AM

Ms. Chelian added that the laws might have unseen effects, including driving some teenagers to try to abort their pregnancies on their own.

"Kids talk among themselves," she said. "When we tell them they need to go to court or tell their parents, that's when they tell us there's a Web site" for chemicals or herbal remedies that claims to induce abortions.
This law is one of those things that has such predictable consequences that you can see them from a mile away. And yet there is always someone surprised by the results. Unseen effects, ha.

ysolde

03-06-2006, 03:38 PM

I have to wonder where the pro-lifers stand on this issue, in light of these recent findings. Do you support parental notification laws? Do you believe it is the parents' right to know, even if they will force a daughter to have an abortion? Or should the goal be to reduce the number of abortions?

lawyerlee

03-06-2006, 03:48 PM

bookworm

03-06-2006, 03:50 PM

I'm pro-choice, but I don't have a problem with parental notification laws in and of themselves. Minors don't get to make their own medical decisions. I understand the hazards, but I just can't get all that riled up about it.

Lil_Mrs_0702

03-06-2006, 04:10 PM

I am pro-choice and I am against the parent notification laws. I think it is a major step backwards. The point of pro-choice is that it is the girl's choice because it is her body and parent's should not be pressuring their children into having an abortion. Also I worry that some girls would rather try to abort the child themselves unsafely than do a controlled professional medical procedure because they don't want their parents to know.

LyLMyssChaos

03-06-2006, 04:10 PM

The main reason that I support parental notification laws is because I feel that the choice to have/not have an abortion is a difficult one and I believe that a woman faced with that decision should have some sort of family support in making that decision. I can't imagine making that choice alone, or having to deal with everything that comes afterward alone. In an ideal situation, I would hope that parents would try to persuade their daughters from getting abortions, but if they are okay with their daughters decisions, I would hope that they would be there to support her in her decision, to help her heal afterward.

GeekGirl

03-06-2006, 04:13 PM

My good friend's little sister was basically forced by her parents to get an abortion when she was in high school. It made me really sad that they didn't allow her any room to make the decision that was right for her. :(

Out of curiosity, would your friend's sister had been able to move out and support herself and her child on her own, or would she have needed her parents to support the both of them?

lawyerlee

03-06-2006, 04:14 PM

lawyerlee

03-06-2006, 04:15 PM

Out of curiosity, would your friend's sister had been able to move out and support herself and her child on her own, or would she have needed her parents to support the both of them?
She'd have definitely needed help if she chose to keep the child. Don't forget, though, that she could have chosen to have the baby and give it up for adoption instead. I wish they'd helped her come to the decision that was right for her instead of dictating such a loaded choice.

jnettie

03-06-2006, 05:35 PM

I agree wholeheartedly. And I think the best possible scenario is a parental notification law combined with an opportunity to go before a judge and seek permission to avoid the parental notification requirement.
Just curious, but how would this work? If you're a teenage girl who wants to get an abortion but doesn't want her parents to know, how is she going to get to a judge or a lawyer without her parents knowing? :confused:

FTR, I'm against parental notification laws. Essencially, I'm fairly sure that a girl with a good relationship with her parents would go to them for guidance anyhow. If your parents wouldn't help or support you, for whatever reason, you'd probably seek alternative means and wouldn't let them know, law or no law.

bookworm

03-06-2006, 05:41 PM

If your parents wouldn't help or support you, for whatever reason, you'd probably seek alternative means and wouldn't let them know, law or no law.

Since so far I'm the only one who doesn't oppose parental notification laws, I'll say that I do agree with this--I just don't think it makes a difference. Rightly or wrongly, we've said that individuals under 18 may not make their own medical decisions (barring some emancipation, and I'd oppose a law that did not give an option to go before a court instead).

amew

03-06-2006, 05:42 PM

Just curious, but how would this work? If you're a teenage girl who wants to get an abortion but doesn't want her parents to know, how is she going to get to a judge or a lawyer without her parents knowing?

It's arguably easier to get to a judge for a 10 minute hearing without your parents noticing than it is to have a surgical procedure (and one that entails some recovery) performed without them noticing. Though I don't necessarily support parental notification laws, I have no doubt that a girl/young woman capable of making an appointment and getting to a clinic without parental intervention is capable of getting to a judge, too. The hearings are generally very short and straightforward and do not require representation by an attorney.

GeekGirl

03-06-2006, 08:24 PM

She'd have definitely needed help if she chose to keep the child. Don't forget, though, that she could have chosen to have the baby and give it up for adoption instead. I wish they'd helped her come to the decision that was right for her instead of dictating such a loaded choice.

That's true, and it certainly is a shame that they didn't allow her to make her own decision. I think it would have been much more reasonable on the parents' part to state that they refused to have any part in her pregnancy/adoption process/keeping of said child, and let her figure out what she wanted from there.

But it does bring up an interesting point of, how much say should a parent have in the pregnancy of a minor daughter?

jnettie

03-06-2006, 08:25 PM

I don't know. At 28, I'm not sure I'd know how to get before a judge. I do know where to go to get an abortion, though. Getting to a clinic seems so much easier even to me.

Granted, I understand it would be hard to hide that you've had a surgical procedure after it happens. But to me it seems easier to get there without parents knowing than to get to court.

jnettie

03-06-2006, 08:36 PM

But it does bring up an interesting point of, how much say should a parent have in the pregnancy of a minor daughter?
Interesting question. I would think that as long as a child is old enough to understand what's happening to them, that parents and doctors should be honest and explain exactly what's happening to them and that they should always get some say into what type of medical procedure it happening to them. By the time you are a teenager, you are certainly able to understand and make decisions. Making a decision for a 5 year old is certainly different than making a decision for a 16 year old. It all depends on whether the parents feel they should or even want to give some of that decision making to their child.

However, somehow, the decision to terminate a pregnancy should ultimatly be made by the woman who is pregnant. Now, as a parent, you'd have every right to say what you *think* should be done, and certainly have your own conditions should the teen choose to have and keep the child, but to force your child to have a medical procedure against her will, that's just bad news all the way around.

EmilyBronte

03-06-2006, 08:41 PM

I don't know. At 28, I'm not sure I'd know how to get before a judge. I do know where to go to get an abortion, though. Getting to a clinic seems so much easier even to me.

I think it would be reasonable for these clinics to have a court contact or some sort of counseling service through which a person could get access to a judge. Does that make sense? You go in to the clinic and if you are a minor there could be 2 options for authorization: 1) parent signature 2) Request for court permission. If you take option 2, then the clinic would give you a court contact so you can set up a meeting with a judge.

I'm not against parental notification for the same reason a PP mentioned regarding making major medical decisions as a minor. However, I think that in a case where a minor is being forced to make the decision their parents want them to make, there should be some sort of process where they can appeal to a judge and potentially have their parent's decision overruled.

mamahammer

03-06-2006, 09:24 PM

I think it would be reasonable for these clinics to have a court contact or some sort of counseling service through which a person could get access to a judge. Does that make sense? You go in to the clinic and if you are a minor there could be 2 options for authorization: 1) parent signature 2) Request for court permission. If you take option 2, then the clinic would give you a court contact so you can set up a meeting with a judge.

I'm not against parental notification for the same reason a PP mentioned regarding making major medical decisions as a minor. However, I think that in a case where a minor is being forced to make the decision their parents want them to make, there should be some sort of process where they can appeal to a judge and potentially have their parent's decision overruled.

ITA with all of what EmilyBronte said. I have no doubt that the same clinics that would be sought by the teenager wanting an abortion would be able/willing ot provide the necessary court contact information to their patients.

And I support parental notification laws with an appeal option. Unless emancipated, children under the age of 18 need parental permission for any medical procedure. If, as is claimed by the pro-choice side, an abortion is just your standard medical procedure, then the same laws should hold for an abortion as an appendectomy.

greenbunny

03-07-2006, 07:12 AM

curlyjr

03-07-2006, 07:38 AM

I am totally against parental notification. I remember being 15, being afraid I was pregnant and looking up stuff about pennyroyal extract because I knew I could never tell my parents if I was pregnant and they would not sign permission for me to have an abortion. I'm guessing I am not the only girl by far who was in that state of mind.

BTB

03-07-2006, 08:23 AM

I am totally against parental notification... I knew I could never tell my parents if I was pregnant and they would not sign permission for me to have an abortion.

IMHO, there is a huge difference between parental notification laws and parental permission laws, although both have been referenced in this thread. Not all states that require parental notification also require parental permission.

I have to wonder where the pro-lifers stand on this issue, in light of these recent findings. Do you support parental notification laws? Do you believe it is the parents' right to know, even if they will force a daughter to have an abortion? Or should the goal be to reduce the number of abortions?

I can only speak for myself, but I don't view the "point" of notification laws to be a reduction in the number of abortions. It's not about numbers, either increasing or decreasing. It's about whether parents have the right to be informed (if we're speaking of notification laws) that their child has had a surgical procedure. This is a separate issue from whether abortion should be legal; IMHO it's a minors' rights issue, not a pro-life/pro-choice issue.

I’m not so convinced that the law and the increase have the relationship we’re assuming they do. The article states there’s been a slight rise in the number of abortions, but doesn’t state that’s a statistically significant rise or that there’s reason to suspect cause-and-effect. Abortion rates (rates of anything) fluctuate, and even random fluctuation would produce an uptick half the time.

The provider quoted also states that frequently it’s the teenage mom’s parents who are pushing for an abortion. That’s always been true – it’s not a new thing at all. One of my most memorable cases was a pregnant 11-year-old whose mother had told her she would surely die if she tried to have the baby because her vagina was too small to let it be born.

Parental involvement means the parent must legally get involved if the teenager has conclusively decided she wants an abortion. Pregnant teenagers of any age can already give consent to medical treatment for the pregnancy – they don’t need parental notification or parental permission to receive prenatal care. Parental notification laws presumably have their greatest impact on those teenagers who WOULD’VE had an abortion anyway and would’ve done so WITHOUT their parents’ knowledge. Parents who are pressuring their kids into abortions knew about the pregnancy already – they aren’t the same parents who would’ve been kept in the dark the whole time. There’s no timely parental notification law if a girl has already decided she wants to keep the pregnancy.

thedoorchick

03-07-2006, 09:01 AM

And I support parental notification laws with an appeal option. Unless emancipated, children under the age of 18 need parental permission for any medical procedure. If, as is claimed by the pro-choice side, an abortion is just your standard medical procedure, then the same laws should hold for an abortion as an appendectomy.

Yes, I have never understood why parental notification (in fact, consent) is pretty much required for any medical procedure for a minor, yet many think that abortion should have the exact opposite rules.

msnicolea

03-07-2006, 09:18 AM

I am pretty much as pro-choice as it gets and even I have difficulty swallowing the idea that a child could undergo an operation without her parents knowing/having any say in it. Honestly, I was a 16 year old who did this, and as someone who wants to become a parent, I am overwhlemed by the idea that my child could go through what I went through without my even knowing. Yes, abortion is very safe--but it's still a surguical procedure.

I undertsand all the arguments re: children who are abused, or young people who have been sexually assaulted by a relative, for example (and I beleive that exceptions have to be made in these cases)--but I understand where parents are coming from on this one.

jnettie

03-07-2006, 10:34 AM

Ok, thanks, that makes so much more sense to me now. :)

I see the points about notification and understand better now. I guess that a combination of notification and a chance to go to a judge provided through the clinic or hospital would be a good alternative.

lawyerlee

03-08-2006, 12:35 AM

But how long does this whole emancipation process take? After all, if the system stalls long enough, the pregnancy will be too far along to terminate, and then the antichoice goal has been achieved, anyway.
It would need to be an emergency hearing. But courts do these all the time with no problems.

bookworm

03-08-2006, 04:45 AM

Pregnant teenagers of any age can already give consent to medical treatment for the pregnancy – they don’t need parental notification or parental permission to receive prenatal care.

BTB, if you're still reading, can you talk more about this? I wasn't aware of exceptions to the "your mom needs to give permissison for you to have tylenol" thing. Does a teen revert back to being a minor as soon as a baby is delivered? Can she consent to other medical procedures during pregnancy, or just ones directly related to being pregnant?

This might change my opinion about parental notification/consert issues--I always thought that since minors can't make health decisions on their own, it was just an extension of that.

dionysia

03-08-2006, 09:23 AM

Question: what happens if the parent who is notified refuses to certify that s/he was notified?

Di

msnicolea

03-08-2006, 09:31 AM

Question: what happens if the parent who is notified refuses to certify that s/he was notified?

Di

This is a very valid concern--I have thought about this issue, too.

lawyerlee

03-08-2006, 10:39 AM

Question: what happens if the parent who is notified refuses to certify that s/he was notified?

Di
I think calling it a "notification" requirement almost understates the actual role of the parent or guardian. Here is a link to the Kansas statute, which gives you a pretty good idea of how it would work:

65-6704. Abortion upon minor; required information and counseling. (http://www.kslegislature.org/legsrv-statutes/getStatuteFile.do?number=/65-6704.html)

So it's not just like you get a phone call and that's it. The parent is an active participant in the decision making process.

Obviously, though, it can vary from state to state.

msnicolea

03-08-2006, 10:56 AM

I think calling it a "notification" requirement almost understates the actual role of the parent or guardian. Here is a link to the Kansas statute, which gives you a pretty good idea of how it would work:

65-6704. Abortion upon minor; required information and counseling. (http://www.kslegislature.org/legsrv-statutes/getStatuteFile.do?number=/65-6704.html)

So it's not just like you get a phone call and that's it. The parent is an active participant in the decision making process.

Obviously, though, it can vary from state to state.

That sounds pretty much like "permission," then, not simply "notification."

lawyerlee

03-08-2006, 11:06 AM

That sounds pretty much like "permission," then, not simply "notification."
Respectfully, I disagree. This is the exact language:

A parent or guardian, or a person 21 or more years of age who is not associated with the abortion provider and who has a personal interest in the minor's well-being, shall accompany the minor and be involved in the minor's decision-making process regarding whether to have an abortion.

It's not as though the parent is given the right to make the decision for the kid or given veto power over the kid's choice.

msnicolea

03-08-2006, 11:12 AM

No but if a parent is "involved in the decison-making process" than, to me, that means they could certainly pressure the young woman not to have an abortion, for example, or exert other types of parental control. It's not as simple as the youth "informing" them.

pocket

03-08-2006, 11:52 AM

I'm another person who is vehemently pro-choice and doesn't care much about parental notification laws. Minors don't have many rights - you come into your rights at the age of majority - 18. That's how it is. You are dependent on the adult citizens who are your parents or guardians. There has to be an age of majority somewhere along the line. We can set it at 18 or 16 or 21 or 11, but we have to set it somewhere.

I voted against this in the last election because the law was crafted in a way that was manipulative. the aim was not to pass a parental notification law, but rather to redefine the fetus as a baby. that won't fly with me. a fetus is not a baby.

BTB

03-08-2006, 12:20 PM

BTB, if you're still reading, can you talk more about this? I wasn't aware of exceptions to the "your mom needs to give permissison for you to have tylenol" thing. Does a teen revert back to being a minor as soon as a baby is delivered? Can she consent to other medical procedures during pregnancy, or just ones directly related to being pregnant?

Can't speak nationally, but my impression is that these state laws are not unusual. Here, pregnant minors can make decisions related to medical care of a pregnancy, but only about issues related to being pregnant. So, for example, if soon-to-be-grandma wants her daughter to give birth without an epidural as "punishment", sorry, that won't fly (I've seen grandmas try, though). Once the baby is delivered, the grandma is then back in complete control of the new mom's medical care, and the new mom is legally in charge of the baby's care unless/until proven otherwise (even if mom is a minor). The only other exception is drug abuse treatment - minors can consent to that as well. It works well in theory. In reality, however, when dealing with a minor in the custody of his/her parents, if the minor and the parents disagreed, many providers/hospitals would seek a court order.

Question: what happens if the parent who is notified refuses to certify that s/he was notified?

I believe the notifier can also certify that the notification occurred.

mamahammer

03-08-2006, 12:24 PM

A parent or guardian, <b>or a person 21 or more years of age who is not associated with the abortion provider and who has a personal interest in the minor's well-being,</b> shall accompany the minor and be involved in the minor's decision-making process regarding whether to have an abortion.

In reality, though, this could mean a teacher, a counselor, a friend, a friend's parent, a youth director, anyone who is
-over 21
-concerned about the minor's well being

I'd say that's a pretty lenient ruling to whom must be provided with notification.

ellybelle

03-08-2006, 02:24 PM

I don't have a problem with that statute as it's worded -- if it allows for another adult to accompany the minor. And I do think all women who want to get an abortion should be counseled and have things clearly explained to them.

As a parent, I would hope my daughter would feel comfortable enough coming to me -- especially since she would know that I would support her no matter what she decided (though I'd expect her to create a future plan and follow through with it if she decided to keep the baby!). That said, I don't agree with stricter parental notification laws (or parental permission laws!) because I believe that it is the teenager who should ultimately have the choice, since it is her body and she will be 100% responsible for any child born. If she doesn't feel comfortable going to her parents, she may obtain an illegal abortion or try potentially deadly herbal abortificants. I'd hate for my daughter to wind up dead because she couldn't tell me she wanted to get an abortion.

dionysia

03-08-2006, 03:11 PM

ITA, ellybelle. Well said.

Di

EmilyBronte

03-08-2006, 04:57 PM

I apologize if this was discussed previously, but we just watched a news story on ABC where they discussed the parental notification laws in Texas. They said that abortion rates among 15-year olds has gone down 11% since the notification laws began (they gave the %'s for the other ages, but I don't remember them all.... but the interesting statistic is that 2nd trimester abortions rose 34% among girls who were 17 1/2 when they got pregnant... so these girls waited to get the abortion until the law no longer affected them.

The news report was calling parental notification a success in Texas, but with the 2nd trimester abortion rate, I'm not convinced.

mamahammer

03-08-2006, 05:08 PM

The news report was calling parental notification a success in Texas, but with the 2nd trimester abortion rate, I'm not convinced.

The crux of the "success" debate is what one considers "successful." I would consider the parental notification law successful because it prohibits medical providers from performing a surgical procedure on my daughter without my knowledge. Whether or not the abortion rate goes up or down doesn't affect my idea of whether or not this law is a success, kwim?

EmilyBronte

03-08-2006, 05:49 PM

Mamahammer~

I should have made myself more clear.... the news story was calling it a success because the rates went down in 1st trimester abortions. However, even though the 17 1/2 year olds were skirting around the law by getting abortions later (with a 34% increase in 2nd trimeseter rates) the story was still calling the law a success. They were basing their story on the drop in abortions being the reason it's a success in TX. They weren't discussing the good of parents knowing, etc.

I agree that I would want to know if my child is having a medical procedure of any kind, including an abortion. My comment was more geared toward me thinking that the news story did not convince me that it was a success based on the abortion rates. Am I making better sense now? It's been a long day! :)

sue-bert

03-09-2006, 04:22 AM

I apologize if this was discussed previously, but we just watched a news story on ABC where they discussed the parental notification laws in Texas. ...

Here is a link to a CNN story on this topic:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/03/08/abortion.parental.ap/index.html

katmg

03-09-2006, 10:43 AM

lawyerlee

03-09-2006, 10:51 AM

There was an article in the Houston Chronicle this morning about the findings of the study.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3711294.html

I thought it was bizarre that one of the state representative's called the increase in 2nd trimester abortions among older teens an "anomoly." I don't think a 34% increase is really an anomoly...
He said that because this is in the only study that has been done on this question, so I have to agree that it is presumptious to say that one finding of a 34% increase is proof that girls are *waiting* until the second trimester. Furthermore, even if we assume that 34% of girls are waiting until the second trimester to seek abortions, it seems even more presumptious to me to attribute their motivation to a desire to avoid parental notification. Perhaps they were in denial about being pregnant. Or ignoring the decision they were facing. Or too scared to seek out information about the options available to them.