Domino's Pizaa Founder says New Florida Town Would Restrict Abortion

[AirForceLove]

I didn't see this story anywhere. I thought it was really interesting.

NAPLES, Florida (AP) -- If Domino's Pizza founder Thomas S. Monaghan has his way, a new town being built in Florida will be governed according to strict Roman Catholic principles, with no place to get an abortion, pornography or birth control.


Here is the whole story...
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/02/catholic.town.ap/index.html

[batgirl]

Tom Monaghan is a crazy religious wacko. I am always telling people not to support his wacky ways and to order pizza from places other than Domino's (which I am proud to say I have NEVER eaten!)

[jp'swife]

I saw this on the Today Show this morning. Katie was trying SO hard to find some issue with this situation and I find nothing wrong with it.
So, it is a town that, based around a university, will promote traditional family values like no pre-marital sex, no condoms, no porn, etc.
They said, regarding the pharmacies, that they will NOT force these pharmacies not to have birth control pills....they just don't recommend it.
Plus, if you want pills, condoms, etc. it's not like this is a walled town, they said. You can drive down the street and right out of the town if you wish and purchase anything you want.
I don't know how this is infringing on anyone's civil liberties. It's like telling Ocean City, NJ...dammit, you don't have a bar here? You are infringing on my civil liberties!!
No, just drive a few miles away and there are plenty of bars.

This town is open-arms to any and all walks of life...all ages, religions, creeds. The men said that they are hoping that there will be a synagogue, a Baptist church, etc.
Katie mentioned about 'allowing' people who are homosexual to live there. THe men looked at her like she had two heads and said "We are welcoming everyone. Whoever wants to live by traditional values is welcome."

[AirForceLove]

Tom Monaghan is a crazy religious wacko. I am always telling people not to support his wacky ways and to order pizza from places other than Domino's (which I am proud to say I have NEVER eaten!)

We have one Dominos Pizza in the town where I live and we live to far out for them to even deliver to our house.

[AirForceLove]

This town is open-arms to any and all walks of life

But it isn't open to any and all walks of life as from the quote below. Only people with "traditional values" can live there.

Katie mentioned about 'allowing' people who are homosexual to live there. THe men looked at her like she had two heads and said "We are welcoming everyone. Whoever wants to live by traditional values is welcome."

[jp'swife]

Well, I didn't quote him word for word. Sorry about that.

I think it's for people who are looking to live by traditional values as a pull to live there.
I'll be interested in seeing what happens with this town. I only heard about it this morning.
I guess they are looking to start Spring of 07? If I remember correctly.

[AirForceLove]

I don't agree with the town, but I can understand why people who want to live by traditional values would want to live there.

[mamahammer]

I saw this on the Today Show this morning. Katie was trying SO hard to find some issue with this situation and I find nothing wrong with it.
So, it is a town that, based around a university, will promote traditional family values like no pre-marital sex, no condoms, no porn, etc.
They said, regarding the pharmacies, that they will NOT force these pharmacies not to have birth control pills....they just don't recommend it.
Plus, if you want pills, condoms, etc. it's not like this is a walled town, they said. You can drive down the street and right out of the town if you wish and purchase anything you want.
I don't know how this is infringing on anyone's civil liberties. It's like telling Ocean City, NJ...dammit, you don't have a bar here? You are infringing on my civil liberties!!
No, just drive a few miles away and there are plenty of bars.

This town is open-arms to any and all walks of life...all ages, religions, creeds. The men said that they are hoping that there will be a synagogue, a Baptist church, etc.
Katie mentioned about 'allowing' people who are homosexual to live there. THe men looked at her like she had two heads and said "We are welcoming everyone. Whoever wants to live by traditional values is welcome."
Exactly. Whether or not I would choose to live there (and I probably would :p), they aren't restricting your Rights to anything. Just like everyone was saying that it's Massachusetts' right to tell every pharmacy to carry EC, it is this town's right to require and to, in fact, actively discourage it.

I mean, prohibition was thrown out long ago. I have the legal right to buy alcohol. But I can't do so in my town because...well, you can't sell alcohol here. Still my right to buy it. But it's [i]not my right to buy it anywhere I want.

[jp'swife]

I don't agree with the town, but I can understand why people who want to live by traditional values would want to live there.

And that is quite ok! :)
Like I said, it will be interesting to see what happens with this town.

[thedoorchick]

Makes sense to me. People who share those values will want to live there, and people who don't will choose to live, well, pretty much anywhere else in the U.S. (the world for that matter).

[wine_o_girlie]

Will this new town be offered any religious exemptions to paying the usual property and state taxes? Anyone know?

[dionysia]

Just like everyone was saying that it's Massachusetts' right to tell every pharmacy to carry EC, it is this town's right to [i[not[/i] require and to, in fact, actively discourage it. I will be interested to see if this town's local government (do they have one officially yet??) will run into legal issues when their regulations run afoul of state ones.

Di

[jp'swife]

FYI
Here is the website http://www.avemaria.com/.
I have not looked at it yet, though.

and the school:
http://www.naples.avemaria.edu/

[SingleWhiteFemale]

I agree with Di. I read a peice about this project, and it was very careful to point out that domination doesn't equal total complete control. They pointed out that there are laws and issues they will be running into, regardless if people hold these beliefs/want to live there.

[lawyerlee]

I think this is a whack job idea, especially when you see what is happening with communities who try to keep their children closed off from what they consider to be bad. Curiosity seems to make temptation *more* appealling to some people, rather than less appealing. I think what has become of the Amish notion of Rumspringa in areas with large Amish populations is a pretty good example of this (if you are unfamiliar, there is lots of info. if you simply Google the word). Kids are going from a really structured lifestyle to total freedom, and not handling it well at all, in many cases. And at a time when they probably need the support of their parents and communities more than ever (living on their own for the first time), they are left to fend for themselves, with no one to talk their decisions over with.

Removing temptation isn't going to magically raise children who are perfect and never want to experiment. :( Ultimately, living your life without these materials and influences is *always* a choice, and it is really important to teach young people how to make the decisions that make sense for their lives, not just remove them from temptation and hope they're follow your religious principles.

I mean, if you don't want to live around the rest of us, fine, that is your choice. But it is really naive to think that you are going to be able to create your own version of Utopia just because you remove yourself from what you consider to be bad influences.

[annie]

Where can I sign up?

Seriously, how would you go about it? I know plenty of people who would really be interested. And for the record, they are not religious wackos, nor am I. I don't see what is wrong with this idea in theory, but the practicalities in this increasingly liberal society will be a nightmare.

Also, I read somewhere that these homes would be owned outright, meaning no one would have a mortgage? You'd have to come up with some fairly wealthy individuals to be able to do that. Interesting....

[lawyerlee]

Where can I sign up?

Seriously, how would you go about it? I know plenty of people who would really be interested. And for the record, they are not religious wackos, nor am I. I don't see what is wrong with this idea in theory, but the practicalities in this increasingly liberal society will be a nightmare.

Also, I read somewhere that these homes would be owned outright, meaning no one would have a mortgage? You'd have to come up with some fairly wealthy individuals to be able to do that. Interesting....
I don't think the people who want this are "whackjobs" either. I just happen to think the idea has a lot more problems associated with it than some people would ever admit.

And if it's all about being able to afford to live there, which remains to be seen, of course, that's pretty disgusting. I wouldn't think that someone who truly had people's interests in mind would want to exclude poor people who hold those values. I wouldn't be suprised if that is how it turns out, though. It's easier to ignore poor people than it is to embrace them. :rolleyes: :(

Oh, and if they're not trying to scream, "white people only", they're doing a good job of promoting that by inference on that website. I wouldn't think excluding minorities would be a requirement of this kind of community any more than excluding poor or middle class people would be. But if that is part of their values, more power to them. It simply puts another nail in the coffin of what a bad idea this is to someone like me, who values diversity.

Oh, and if you're truly interested, you can send them an e-mail to get on their mailing list. I just hope you can afford one of their residences.

[lipgloss]

sounds like an interesting town. I like the fact that religion is focal point.

[jp'swife]

Where can I sign up?

Seriously, how would you go about it? I know plenty of people who would really be interested. And for the record, they are not religious wackos, nor am I. I don't see what is wrong with this idea in theory, but the practicalities in this increasingly liberal society will be a nightmare.

Also, I read somewhere that these homes would be owned outright, meaning no one would have a mortgage? You'd have to come up with some fairly wealthy individuals to be able to do that. Interesting....

I signed up at the website to get more information on the homes. They are Pulte homes, which is a very good homebuilding company and we have look at their homes before.
If you sign up for info on these residences, they email you information right away.
Thank you for your recent inquiry and your interest in Pulte Homes - Ave Maria community. We are currently processing your request for more information and a member of the Pulte Homes team in Southwest Florida will personally respond to your inquiry shortly.

In the meantime, we encourage you to visit www.pulte.com frequently. Our online environment is constantly being updated to offer you extensive resources and up to date information regarding the communities that interest you. www.pulte.com is designed to help you find, personalize, finance, build, and own your Pulte home. With several Pulte Homes communities available in the Southwest Florida area, we're sure you'll find one to fit your needs. Click here to browse Pulte Homes Southwest Florida communities.

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Again, thank you for your interest in Pulte Homes. We look forward to helping you in any way that we can.

The Pulte Homes Team



I haven't read anywhere that these homes are owned outright, though.

[jp'swife]

Once again, the idea of this community, or town is that it is not a walled town, it is not segregated from the world. The community is based around traditional values and they want to include everyone. I don't see anything bad in that. You can go right down the road a few miles and get anything and everything you want anyway if the town does not have it for one reason or another. Seems like a lot of people are liking this idea and are signing up and looking into more information.
I know about the Amish, Mennonites. We live very close to Lancaster and the farmer's market up the street in PA is filled with Amish folk selling meats, bakery items, etc.. Some Amish are extremely religious (I don't believe they are the people there)...not involved with the 'outside world', no electricity, no tv, nothing. Others are much more open. Anyway, I digress.
If people like this idea, there is definately a market for it. No one is forced into this situation (where a lot of Amish kids, whether they like it or not, are) and I'm sure you could move away if you don't like this town.

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

Just a quick note- boycotting Domino's does nothing to Tom Monaghan. He no longer owns it. He sold it when he started his Catholic law school.

ETA: Although I don't think being interested in the community makes someone a nut, I absolutely think Tom Monaghan is a nut.

[bookworm]

I don't quite understand how this works--will the town have a government (and if so, will it be elected)? What if a bunch of people who didn't share these "traditional values" started getting elected or changing laws?

As long as the town complies with federal and state anti-discrimination laws, I'm not sure what's wrong with it--can someone explain the argument (beyond that it just sounds icky)?

[msnicolea]

Oh, good. Maybe I'll start a town, msnicoleaville, and only "encourage" white people to live there. I mean, if AA and latinos don't like it, too bad. They can live somewhere else. I'll have Strom Thurmond Elementary School and aryan-only boy scouts--maybe I'll even do lynching renactments as part of white-prde fest. It'll be great! Ideal, even, some would say! :rolleyes: :mad:

[mamahammer]

Could someone point out to me where yall are getting the idea that they are being discriminatory towards the poor, those of other faiths or those of other races? I've been scouring the website and don't see anything that suggests the above.

“What people do in their own home is none of our business,” Healy said. “There has been no attempt to regulate or restrict that.”

Healy said neither the town nor the university would profit from Ave Maria being an exclusive community.

“I think the faculty would be very distressed if this was only a Catholic community,” he said. “We have many people on our staff and a few on our faculty who are not Catholic. Really I think this has been blown all out of proportion.”


Monaghan told the national TV audiences and later the Associated Press that his ideas about barring pornography and birth control apply only to the Catholic university property.

Q: What is the price range for residences?
A: Prices should accommodate nearly every budget, from starter condominiums to estate homes

[Scooter]

Once again, the idea of this community, or town is that it is not a walled town, it is not segregated from the world. So to be segregated it has to be walled off? I have to disagree. I see segregation as separating one group from the rest of the people.

If people want to have their own beliefs, that's one thing. Going off and starting a new town so they can live by those beliefs without other people being around them, and outsiders not allowed to live there...well that's segregation. And I've got to say it brings up associations to me of cults & mountain militias & other fringe extremists like that.

I'm unaware of any situation in which segregation has worked out well for all.

[lisainpink]

This concept is not a new one. I am a bit surprised that people are having such a reaction to it.
There is a town in north Alabama called St. Florian. It is an almost exclusivley Catholic community. The homes in St. Florian really cover all price ranges- so you have a mix incomes. Most of the people who live there are married (the divorce rate is almost non-existant), Catholic, and of German decent. The crime rate is very low- and the community reaches out beyond its borders to help the larger town to the south. The population is over 90% white- but it isn't like people of other races are not welcome. The people that choose to live there like that St. Florian is a very small town, very close knit, and very Catholic. The families of the area center their lives around St. Michaels- the Catholic church there. I used to live in the county where St. Florian is- so I attened St. Michaels. If we were going to live in that part of the state, DH and I would think really hard about living in St. Florian. It is segregated in a way- but mostly because people who are not Catholic (or don't want to live in a town of less than 1,000 people) don't choose to live there.
One benefit of a small community like St. Florian- was their ability to come together to help others.
Am I missing something? I didn't see where "outsiders" weren't allowed to live in this new community.

[lawyerlee]

Could someone point out to me where yall are getting the idea that they are being discriminatory towards the poor, those of other faiths or those of other races? I've been scouring the website and don't see anything that suggests the above.
They only show white people on the website and people who are scraping by month to month can't afford to buy a starter condo. To ignore this is to kid oneself. They clearly want a certain kind of community, one that will be achieved by keeping certain people out. I don't kid myself for a second that my family would be welcome there.

[BTB]

people who are scraping by month to month can't afford to buy a starter condo. To ignore this is to kid oneself. They clearly want a certain kind of community, one that will be achieved by keeping certain people out.

Isn't that true of most suburban subdivisions? I mean, for better or worse, most neighborhoods are not a true mix of everything from "estate homes" to residences those scraping by can afford. I'm not saying segregation, if intentional, is no big deal, but I am saying "real-estate segregation" happens all the the time without ill intent being presumed - why is that same thing happening in Ave Maria malicious?

[maxandmolly]

Isn't that true of most suburban subdivisions? I mean, for better or worse, most neighborhoods are not a true mix of everything from "estate homes" to residences those scraping by can afford. I'm not saying segregation, if intentional, is no big deal, but I am saying "real-estate segregation" happens all the the time without ill intent being presumed - why is that same thing happening in Ave Maria malicious?
Because Ave Maria is not simply a neighborhood-it's an entire city. And most cities, at least in theory, DO have a mix of housing price ranges available.
Although I do have to say, I grew up not far from where this community will be built-there isn't a whole lot of diversity in the area to start with. The Naples-Ft. Myers area is, as a whole, overwhlemingly white, and wealthy. Then there are people like my family, white, and scraping by, who serve the wealthy. Then there are the farm workers. And that's about it. So it's not as though the town will be displacing a currently diverse population-only reinforcing an already overwhlemingly UN-diverse status quo.

[maxandmolly]

And if he truly wanted to include those of ALL income levels who share the same values-where is the low income housing? It appears as though this will be a solely owner-occupied town. Do those who can't afford to purchase even a 'starter condo' not get the chance to live with people who share their values?

[lisainpink]

There will be apartments- but as far as low-income housing- I don't know of any developer who builds low-income housing into a new community.
This community is being built around a Catholic university- not a downtown city-center.

[maxandmolly]

A university has plenty of low wage workers. Someone has to mop the floors, erve the food in the cafeteria, wash down the chalkboards. Should they not have the same chance to live there too?

[lawyerlee]

There will be apartments- but as far as low-income housing- I don't know of any developer who builds low-income housing into a new community.
This community is being built around a Catholic university- not a downtown city-center.
There are plenty of developers who build brand new housing for low-income individuals and families. Housing projects in the downtowns of cities certainly aren't the only option for people without much money. I'm honestly not sure where you would get the idea that this doesn't happen. They could easily building low-income housing that people who fall under a certain income limit could rent and/or people who qualify for Section 8. People do this quite often all over the country.

[lisainpink]

Low-income housing in a new, suburban, planned community? I'm sorry- I've never seen that before.
I got the idea from every single new development DH and I looked at as we were deciding where to build. Some were centered around Golf Courses (most grounds crews are not exactly high-wage earners), some were centered around town centers, one was centered around a shopping village- not one had a low-income project. However, the city and county government in the area have provided options for those who need assistance.
The Ave Maria community repeats itself stating that they will offer dwellings for all income levels. How are we to know what the rent will be on the apartments? Is there a large Homeless problem in Naples (Laura- you may be able to answer this)? Is there a great need for low-income housing for those employed by the University? Where are the food service workers living now (since phase 1 of the town is not complete)? (These are earnest questions- not snark.;) )

ETA: I'm not running away- gotta sneak away- but I'll be back. I have to go to class with my RCIA candidate, then I have Mass, and then there is a meeting for our Parish to build a house for Habitat for Humanity this season (wow- Catholics taking care of those less fortunate- who knew! :-P)

[maxandmolly]

I know you're not being snarky, Lisa, I just think you're comparing apples, and, well, apple trees. When you buy a bag of apples, you expect them all to be similar, right? When you see the apple tree, there will be a bit of variety to what is hanging off iy. (I'n guessing-we only have orange trees around here, so go with me.)
This is not simply one development. Not just one single neighborhood being built. It is an entire TOWN-so the standards are, and should be, different. One neighborhood built around a golf course? Common thing. An entire TOWN built aroun one? No.
Right now, the lower wage workers are probably commuting from somwhere like Immokalee, or a similar type migrant farmworker community where they're lucky to have running water, and not be able to see outside through holes in the walls. (NO, I am NOT exaggerating.) Is that really ok with anyone? Think about it. This man is espousing this community (again, not a single neighborhood, but an entire community) as one with wholesome, commonly held values. Who is to say those workers don't hold those values?
As for the homeless problem in Naples, I couldn't honestly tell you right now. But the counties in that area are starting to run into some rpetty serious problems-MOST wage earning, grocery store/waitress/service industry workers can't find a decent place to live in their price range unless they've A) lived there for 10 or 15 years (like my mom) or B) have an long, ugly, expensive commute.

[rubyslippers]

I am Catholic and I find this disturbing. Would everyone feel the same way if the barriers were by color or race? "Traditional values" vary. At one time lynching was traditional. Discrimination is discrimination no matter how you dress it up.

[BTB]

Because Ave Maria is not simply a neighborhood-it's an entire city. And most cities, at least in theory, DO have a mix of housing price ranges available.

Not River Hills, Wisconsin. Nor Northbrook, Illinois. I'm not familiar with the Florida housing market, but there are plenty of towns DH and I are priced out of by an incredible margin, and yet we're among those who count our blessings every night. It *would* be great if more developers encouraged diversity. I'd love to see this particular town do so in the spirit of Christian hospitality. But I don't think it's "unusual" that they're not doing so, from a real estate perspective. And, I'm not so sure they are being un-inclusive, since there are apartments available.

[jp'swife]

Not River Hills, Wisconsin. Nor Northbrook, Illinois. I'm not familiar with the Florida housing market, but there are plenty of towns DH and I are priced out of by an incredible margin, and yet we're among those who count our blessings every night.

Off the top of my head, add Greenville, Delaware to that.

[jp'swife]

In November 2004, Monaghan and Barron Collier representatives discussed how Catholic values would affect the town with members of The News-Press editorial board.

They said the residential and commercial development would function as any other Barron Collier development in Florida, although they expected the community to attract Catholics interested in the spiritual services the town could offer.

"We can't restrict people's conduct by ordinance. This is a section of Collier County, and we are going to have Collier County ordinances, Collier County schools and so on," said Nick Healy, university president, who also was in the New York contingent.

Monaghan's comments about the moral climate of the town of the community should have been phrased as based on his "convictions and his hopes rather than what will be done," Healy added.
http://www.news-press.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060304/NEWS0106/603040502/1002/NEWS01

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

The difference between Ave Maria and River Hills, WI and Northbrook, IL is that River Hills and Northbrook grew organically. As far as I know, nobody came out and said, hey, I want this to community to be as homogenous as possible. Ave Maria is an entire city being plonked down, with that intent.

It's entirely possible that it was the intent of some people in River Hills and Northbrook that they should be very homogenous as well. And if one of the original developers from one of those communities came out and said, hey, that was my goal, I'd criticize them just as much as Monaghan. IMO, it is not a positive goal- not something to trumpet.

[BTB]

The difference between Ave Maria and River Hills, WI and Northbrook, IL is that River Hills and Northbrook grew organically.

The mental image I have right now of these communities sprouting out of the dirt is kinda comical.

I get what you're saying, but when River Hills has a minimum lot size requirement of five acres, it does intentionally homogenize even if no one ever comes right out and says that's the goal.

[maxandmolly]

The mental image I have right now of these communities sprouting out of the dirt is kinda comical.

I get what you're saying, but when River Hills has a minimum lot size requirement of five acres, it does intentionally homogenize even if no one ever comes right out and says that's the goal.
I agree with you on that, and I would be just as vocal with my displeasure about an entire town like being planned near me as well.

[mamahammer]

I agree with you on that, and I would be just as vocal with my displeasure about an entire town like being planned near me as well.

It happens all of the time, though. At least in Texas :shrug: Most of the neighborhoods I've lived in have a minimum lot requirement, require certain types of landscaping, specific window treatments, etc. My husband just recently left a residential construction firm, and cities around here have a ton of building requirements that potentially price people out. All stone exteriors, 6x12 front porches, a minimum of 4 trees and 2 colors of floral landscaping, etc. So, they are built around appearance and not a Catholic university. Eh. What's the real difference?

I'll agree with lisainpink in that I haven't heard of/seen a master planned community that intentionally sets up government-subsidized, low-income housing. Most builders and developers are in the business to make money. Like it or not, low-income housing lowers property values. As do most apartment buildings. It doesn't make good businesss sense for a developer to include that in their master plan.

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

You're talking about communities. That's not the same as whole cities. It may not make "good business sense" for an individual housing development to plan in low-income housing, but it absolutely does for a city.

[maxandmolly]

You're talking about communities. That's not the same as whole cities. It may not make "good business sense" for an individual housing development to plan in low-income housing, but it absolutely does for a city.

Which is only the fourth, maybe fifth or sixth time, we have had to point the difference, between an individual planned community and an entire city or town. IT'S A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THING. It's exclusionary, and meant to be so, whether they admit it or not. Which, again, is nothing new for that area of Florida. They want perfectly clean hotels, great food in restaraunts, etc, but have no interest in paying enough for it that the service workers there can make a living wage providing them with those services. This is not a new thing. But to intentionally plan an entire town based on that idea disgusts me beyond belief. They can claim it's based on a Catholic school and Catholic values. But it's about race, it's about class, and in the end, it's about money. It always is.

[artist]

I have never understood why people would choose to only live near people exactly like themselves. Sounds so boring. What would you learn? Your kids would have such culture shock when they grew up.

It wouldn't surprise me if the children of this town end up all getting STDs (yet claiming to be "virgins") and the teen pregnancy rate will be high. I guess it might depend somewhat on what else there is to do in this town, besides drive to other towns. If all they have is a bowling alley, movie theater, and mall, well, and no condoms and literally nothing else to do or see, well, nevermind.

I am such a city person though. I would go crazy anywhere else. I am thankful to have been raised in a city. That's my opinion though.

[ysolde]

One of my friends grew up in a town like that: wealthy, no movie theaters, fast food restaurants, or anything else that would mar the "Old New England" historical society look the matrons were going for. The kids there were all having unprotected sex, going into Boston for treatment for their STDs and their abortions (fortunately, this was just before AIDS hit hte straight scene in full force), and charging their designer drugs on Daddy's credit cards (their dealers accepted Amex Platinum, and it showed up on the charge as a "real" business transaction). It was a beautiful place, though. And, to listen to the adults speak, they lived there to keep their children safe from the "evils" of the world. :rolleyes:

[artist]

Who the hell gives their kid their credit card?

[looch]

RE: the credit card

My parents never did, but lots of parents give their credit cards to their kids of high school age. I have a friend who had her own gold card back in her day. I also went to college with a girl whose family manager paid her credit card for her. It was in the thousands monthly.

Interesting thread, I kind of feel like if you want to live there, that's great, if you don't, that's great too. I could have sworn that some towns, like Boston, were founded by people escaping religious persecution, but I haven't had much time to find resources this morning.

Anyway, back to the regularly scheduled programming.

[dionysia]

I could have sworn that some towns, like Boston, were founded by people escaping religious persecution, but I haven't had much time to find resources this morning.Escaping religious persecution is the reason that the Pilgrims came here in the first place.

Roger Williams left Massachusetts Bay Colony for what would become Rhode Island to escape persecution at the hands of the Colonists (irony much?).

Di

[looch]

I guess the question is, are the people who would want to live in Ave Maria escaping religious persecution (or what they percieve to be religious persecution), and if they are, does that make the town "alright?"

[amew]

Who the hell gives their kid their credit card?

My parents gave me a credit card when I was 12. I could count on one hand the times I ever actually used it (and I always got specific permission before doing so), but they wanted me to have it for emergencies. It was actually very helpful when we applied for a mortgage, as my credit history is far longer than it would be otherwise.

[SingleWhiteFemale]

Who the hell gives their kid their credit card?I've had one since I got my drivers license at 16. In addition to having a tire blow up and having to go get it fixed on my own, I did the grocery shopping, all of the other shopping (Christmas included), taking my parents cars in for work, picking up dinner, getting stuff for school projects... I used it on a regular basis. It made me very self-sufficent. And I'm extremely grateful for it. I never needed permission to use it, but always was willing to show the reciept (which my parents didn't care to see, they trusted me). My parents aren't/weren't rich, either.

[BTB]

And if one of the original developers from one of those communities came out and said, hey, that was my goal, I'd criticize them just as much as Monaghan.

The term "community" actually came from LFPH in the above quote, not from me. If "community" is unnecessarily confusing, maybe pointing out they have their own mayors will help clear up what they are.

Which is only the fourth, maybe fifth or sixth time, we have had to point the difference, between an individual planned community and an entire city or town. IT'S A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THING.

That's unnecessarily condescending. What *I'm* trying to tell *you* is that it IS the entire town. Entire towns ("cities", "communities", "villages") pass legislation that require a minimum lot size, minimum square footage, or other building requirements that do limit the population able to live there. We can criticize the practice, but let's not act like it's an original idea.

[mamahammer]

The term "community" actually came from LFPH in the above quote, not from me. If "community" is unnecessarily confusing, maybe pointing out they have their own mayors will help clear up what they are.


That's unnecessarily condescending. What *I'm* trying to tell *you* is that it IS the entire town. Entire towns ("cities", "communities", "villages") pass legislation that require a minimum lot size, minimum square footage, or other building requirements that do limit the population able to live there. We can criticize the practice, but let's not act like it's an original idea.

Yes, yes. I'm talking about Master Planned Communities that are their own towns - have their own school district, their own town council, mayor, etc. And these regulations are to be met in order to obtain city building permit's.

Like BTB said, you can disgaree with the idea, and I can fully understand not desiring to live in a community of that ilk - but this Ave Maria community isn't the first of it's kind.

[maxandmolly]

Neither one of you were clear that you were talking about entire TOWNS or CITIES. A community or neighborhood is just that. BTB, you know perfectly well, you've seen me around the boards enough to know I was not being purposely condescending in your direction. Clearly it was a case of miscommunication/crossed wires.
It certainly IS a VERY new thing for any such type of CITY or TOWN to develop in my area, and I take it as a VERY big deal. If they are common where you or mamahammer or whoever may be, fine. That'll simply remind me not to move to those areas. I find it repugnant, disgusting, borderline racist, most definitely classist and elistist, and yet another reminder that I live in a red state, one I need to exit at my very first opportunity.

[phoenics]

Well, I think in theory it's a nice idea - but that's the idealist in me talking. In reality, I know that it means that it will end up being a city where people who do service work there won't be able to live there.

It sounds a lot like Cary, NC - at least in terms of money issues. The people who work inside of Cary for minimum wage or just slightly more can't afford to live there.

I'm not sure that they mean the community to be all-white - but after listening to the posts and such, I can see where that it would basically become all-white just because of the cost of living there.

Florida doesn't exactly have a largely successful black population I don't think. Some are successful, but it's not like the numbers in a city like Atlanta - where there is a very large and prosperous black community.

I went to Catholic School and I really loved it. The academic standards at my school were higher and I felt pushed all of the time... it wasn't quite the same at public school - where the grade scale was shifted down. That's fine, because I pushed myself, but even still. I liked the discipline of my school and the uniforms (yeah, I'm weird). I liked going to mass during school - because afterwards, the father/priest would hand out gum. LOL. Memories.

Public school had its advantages too - I learned a lot more about people and situations outside of my comfort zone.

There are pros and cons.

I think that the 'idea' is a nice one, however I think that in the end, values such as 'greed' and 'exclusion' will be pushed more than the values that I'd like to see pushed.

I definitely would like to go visit this place though.

[amew]

It certainly IS a VERY new thing for any such type of CITY or TOWN to develop in my area, and I take it as a VERY big deal.

Does Celebration, FL have low-income housing? From their website (http://www.celebrationfl.com), it looks like they have condos starting in the high $200s, lots of far more expensive homes, and a smattering of what appear to be relatively high-rent apartments, much like Ave Maria. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the fact that it has happened before makes it right--these towns give me the creeps. But I am not convinced that the socio-economic and racial segregation aspect of this is anything new, for Florida or otherwise (the religious aspect may be more so).

[LyLMyssChaos]

Does Celebration, FL have low-income housing? From their website (http://www.celebrationfl.com), it looks like they have condos starting in the high $200s, lots of far more expensive homes, and a smattering of what appear to be relatively high-rent apartments, much like Ave Maria. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the fact that it has happened before makes it right--these towns give me the creeps. But I am not convinced that the socio-economic and racial segregation aspect of this is anything new, for Florida or otherwise (the religious aspect may be more so).

Celebration is one of the creepiest places I have ever been to! I am fairly certain that that they don't have "low income housing." Although I do have to admit that the food at the Columbia is AWESOME!

[ysolde]

I have always been curious about Celebration. What did you think of it? What made it creepy?

[LyLMyssChaos]

I have always been curious about Celebration. What did you think of it? What made it creepy?
All of the houses looked EXACTLY alike, down to the mailboxes, with the exception of the color (and they were all pastels.) I also felt like I had walked into "The Stepford Wives." The people just didn't seem "real" it's hard to explain but everything seemed so fake and "plastic" Everything was so overly planned, down to having "all authentic ethnic" staff in the restaurants. Everything seemed to fit some sort of theme. It just was really creepy. I'll have to see if I have any pictures that we took of stuff.

[looch]

That description could be Anywhere, USA. I can't tell you how many developments I have seen all along the east coast south of new york that look similar.
And, FWIW, the residents all look the same too.

[BTB]

Neither one of you were clear that you were talking about entire TOWNS or CITIES.

My post #37 - one of my first, if not my first, on this topic - used the word "towns". I hope it's clear now.

It certainly IS a VERY new thing for any such type of CITY or TOWN to develop in my area, and I take it as a VERY big deal. If they are common where you or mamahammer or whoever may be, fine. That'll simply remind me not to move to those areas. I find it repugnant, disgusting, borderline racist, most definitely classist and elistist, and yet another reminder that I live in a red state, one I need to exit at my very first opportunity.

Maxandmolly, it doesn't make me like you any less, but by saying that, you're not just implying but outright stating that mamahammer and I live in repugnant, disgusting, racist, classist, and elitist places. Frankly, I'm surprised you've never heard of this practice. I suspect it does happen in your area - I didn't know about the lot requirements until I actually began looking to buy or build. If you PM'd me your county, I'd like the challenge of NOT finding such a place in the county in which you currently live. It's certainly possible I actually wouldn't find one, as I've said, I've not lived in all regions of the country. BTW, I live in a BLUE state.

[maxandmolly]

Does Celebration, FL have low-income housing? From their website (http://www.celebrationfl.com), it looks like they have condos starting in the high $200s, lots of far more expensive homes, and a smattering of what appear to be relatively high-rent apartments, much like Ave Maria. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that the fact that it has happened before makes it right--these towns give me the creeps. But I am not convinced that the socio-economic and racial segregation aspect of this is anything new, for Florida or otherwise (the religious aspect may be more so).
I don't consider that to be in my 'area'-it's several hundred miles away from the Naples/Ft. Myers area where I grew up. I had just as much of a problem with it as I do with Ave Maria-but Ave Maria is geographically much closer to home. I have a problem with any 'master planned' community that excludes the majority of the people who work in it.

[maxandmolly]

Maxandmolly, it doesn't make me like you any less, but by saying that, you're not just implying but outright stating that mamahammer and I live in repugnant, disgusting, racist, classist, and elitist places. Frankly, I'm surprised you've never heard of this practice. I suspect it does happen in your area - I didn't know about the lot requirements until I actually began looking to buy or build. If you PM'd me your county, I'd like the challenge of NOT finding such a place in the county in which you currently live. It's certainly possible I actually wouldn't find one, as I've said, I've not lived in all regions of the country. BTW, I live in a BLUE state.
If you (general you) choose to live in a place that by means of city or county regulations (as to lot size, or similar) seeks to 'weed out' the less desirables or less fortunate, then sadly, yes, I will think less of you. While I find the practice of it by developers or large groups repugnant and disgusting, I certainly would not tell someone to their face (or online) that I find them repugnant or disgusting. I may hardly ever agree with your views, BTB, but I find you neither repugnant nor disgusting. I don't think I would classify anyone on CC with either one of those words.
As for the county I live in, having worked in social services and for a SFH builder here, I can say with complete confidence that there is not one incorporated city in the county that has any such regulation on their books. I can also say that each city, no matter how small, has adequate low-income housing, though I DID find some of what they call 'housing' repugnant and disgusting.

[LyLMyssChaos]

If anyone is interested, I found a website that lists the median income for Celebration, along with other census records at epodunk (http://www.epodunk.com/cgi-bin/genInfo.php?locIndex=8406)

[BTB]

If you (general you) choose to live in a place that by means of city or county regulations (as to lot size, or similar) seeks to 'weed out' the less desirables or less fortunate, then sadly, yes, I will think less of you.

You've completely missed my point.

Back to post 37, where I said I CAN'T "choose to live" in such a place, because even IF I wanted to, I'm not even close to being able to afford it. But when I lived in (much cheaper areas of) Wisconsin, there were such places around. And now that I live in (a much cheaper area of) Illinois, there are still such places around. I would be amazed if there is not at least one such place in your backyard as well. You mean to tell me you could find a place to live in ANY area around Naples? There's not a single place you're priced out of?

[maxandmolly]

I don't live in that area right now-at this point, almost everyone is priced out of the Naples/Ft. Myers area. I have no idea what the poor people who lived there have done, other than become homeless or leave.

[BTB]

http://41west.com/localinfo.asp

Formerly zoned agricultural, the Luxury Estate Areas of Pine Ridge, Livingston Woods, Logan Woods, and Oakes Boulevard require 2½ acre lots.

I'd bet this happens everywhere, not just Florida, not just Wisconsin, not just Illinois.

[wine_o_girlie]

Will this new town be offered any religious exemptions to paying the usual property and state taxes? Anyone know?

Anyone, Bueller?

[maxandmolly]

http://41west.com/localinfo.asp



I'd bet this happens everywhere, not just Florida, not just Wisconsin, not just Illinois.
Does that make it ok?
The problem is not *just* that there is no low income housing in newly developing areas. The problem is that there is so little hope for the people living there in existing low income housing to ever live anywhere else. A new generation of the underclass is forming right before our eyes, as Congress cuts funding for early childhood education programs-which are considered key to helping a child get a jump on a good education, and a shot at a better future. As minimum wage earners drive an hour or more from their crappy apartments into bright shining centers of suburban growth to serve burgers, mop floors. And it's not just them. Have you tried living in Collier, Lee, Charlotte or Sarasota Counties on a teacher's salary? Good luck.

[jp'swife]

Anyone, Bueller?

There really isn't a tremendous amount of info about Ave-Maria right yet. I'm sure more will be coming out sooner or later.

[LyLMyssChaos]

As minimum wage earners drive an hour or more from their crappy apartments into bright shining centers of suburban growth to serve burgers, mop floors. And it's not just them. Have you tried living in Collier, Lee, Charlotte or Sarasota Counties on a teacher's salary? Good luck.

The people who work in Sarasota County mostly lived in Manatee County, but now, the housing market there is "booming" and people can't afford to live there either. I really think it's a sad state of affairs when people can't afford to live where they work.

[BTB]

Does that make it ok?

I'm not celebrating it - I already said that I would rather see the community be more diverse in the spirit of Christian hospitality. But for a few pages there, there seemed to be a feeling of "hey, those naughty Catholics. Look at what they're doing!" And I'm pointing out it is actually pretty "normal", and not an original idea by any means.

Though I've yet to see any actual evidence that Ave Maria IS, in fact, discriminating. Those who've visited the website came back with mixed reports, yes?

[BTB]

I really think it's a sad state of affairs when people can't afford to live where they work.

In large urban centers, this will always need to occur. I don't think it's realistic to think everyone who works in, say, downtown Manhattan, can live downtown. There's just not enough space. Demand drives up costs. Unless we could equalize demand, how could it ever be achieved that everyone can afford to live where they work?

[maxandmolly]

The people who work in Sarasota County mostly lived in Manatee County, but now, the housing market there is "booming" and people can't afford to live there either. I really think it's a sad state of affairs when people can't afford to live where they work.
BTB, I understand not living in downtown Manhattan, but we're talking about different counties here, like LMC said.
LMC, it's gotten so bad, people are moving to Arcadia-on purpose. *shudder* Living in Arcadia, working in Sarasota-you're talking an hour to an hour and a half, and this IS not a 'major urban area' such as Philly, NYC, or LA.

[jp'swife]

The people who work in Sarasota County mostly lived in Manatee County, but now, the housing market there is "booming" and people can't afford to live there either. I really think it's a sad state of affairs when people can't afford to live where they work.

You know I love you Lyl, but I had to drive over an hour each way to get to my job on the Main Line of Philly because I couldn't afford to live there.
My father, who was a teacher until he retired last year, drove 45 minutes each way to his teaching job in Northern NJ for 33 years because our family could afford to live in the Lehigh Valley. My brothers live in Brooklyn because they can't live in NYC. My mom drove over 30 minutes each way to her job as a supermarket deli worker because she couldn't live in Clinton, NJ on her salary and my dad's. These are just a few people. People are living further way from their job than ever just so they can have a home or some kind of decent living. In the Lehigh Valley right now, the housing market is INSANE. Route 78 into NJ and NYC was just connected, so loads of people from NJ and NY are living there and commuting either by car, bus or train to get to their jobs. DH's company is moving to center city Philly in May......
Just a side note and I digress. Man, that was a ramble!

[looch]

JP's wife...you are spot on. Same here, I was going to write the same things, except insert different states!

[LyLMyssChaos]

BTB, I understand not living in downtown Manhattan, but we're talking about different counties here, like LMC said.
LMC, it's gotten so bad, people are moving to Arcadia-on purpose. *shudder* Living in Arcadia, working in Sarasota-you're talking an hour to an hour and a half, and this IS not a 'major urban area' such as Philly, NYC, or LA.

Yikes!! That is a LONG drive, especially if you have to take TamiAmi/41!!

As for what everyone else is saying, I understand what you mean about having to live one place and work anotherit is very common where I live that people drive around 1 1/2 hours so that they can make a good living, but these are people driving 1 1/2 hours to work at Mickey D's, ya know?? It really is a different scenario to cross even the city limit from Sarasota to Bradenton. The people who work in Sarasota can't even afford to shop at the very places they work. And many of the people who CAN afford to live in Sarasota would absolutely cringe if they "made a wrong turn" and wound up in Bradenton. Yet those people work at their restaurants, clean their houses, wash their cars, etc.

[BTB]

JP's wife...you are spot on. Same here, I was going to write the same things, except insert different states!

We have the same problem - we simply can't buy a home where we currently live unless we have at least a 75 minute commute each morning and night. So, we rent. And soon, we're moving. :)

[looch]

We've decided to move next year when I am almost done with my masters. Even then, I don't know how we are going to afford something where we are going. The commute to work for the both of us is going to be 2 hours, assuming we stay in the same jobs. Did I mention we don't own a car? Public transportation for us.
I always believed in...hold on...this one is cheesy...where there is a will, there is a way. If you want something badly enough, you work for it. Doesn't matter what your socio-economic background is.

(Hiding Republican values under coat and running away)

[maxandmolly]

I always believed in...hold on...this one is cheesy...where there is a will, there is a way. If you want something badly enough, you work for it. Doesn't matter what your socio-economic background is.

(Hiding Republican values under coat and running away)
This is a nice theory, but it's easier said than done. When my mother found herself with no job (she is basically unemployable due to a variety of things I won't discuss here), she started cleaning houses. Then her car died. She got a POS with the help of friends. It died. She walked (there is NO public transportation of ANY KIND where I grew up and she still lives). In the summer. In Florida. With a bucket of cleaning supplies. Five miles, each way. After cleaning 3,000 sq. ft. houses alone.
Where there is a will, there is a way, will only get you so far. It got her a trip to the hospital for heat exhaustion, and blisters on her feet that took nearly a year to heal-mostly because she was back to work as soon as she could stand upright without falling.
Where is a will, there is a way, will only get you so far.

[jp'swife]

I always believed in...hold on...this one is cheesy...where there is a will, there is a way. If you want something badly enough, you work for it. Doesn't matter what your socio-economic background is.

(Hiding Republican values under coat and running away)

Not cheesy and I believe it too. Another Republican.

[looch]

While I am distressed to hear your mother's story, this isn't a competition about how bad someone we are close to had it. I won't even go there.

ETA: sounds harsher than what I intended, but debate is hard in writing.

[LyLMyssChaos]

Not cheesy and I believe it too. Another Republican.

Ditto.

I just think that the situations in some areas are getting to be VERY extreme.

[ysolde]

We can't afford a handicapped accessible Manhattan apartment, and, because public transportation in the outer boroughs is generally not handicapped accessible, we can't afford to live outside Manhattan.

So we rent, and invest our money in other ways.

[Lil_Mrs_0702]

I don't see a problem with this guys plan. We have dry counties, curfews, and other things that restrict some behaviors. He is not dictating what behaviors are allowed he is just saying that he will not provide the supplies to perform that behavior. People are more than welcome to buy condoms, have abortions, and buy birth control w/o being condemned... They just can't do it with in city limits.

[isign]

I thought this was interesting. I found this article linked to one of the other articles someone posted here
No contraception

• Rumor: Stores will be banned from selling birth control pills, condoms or other contraception

• Reality: Because of Catholic teaching and the proximity of the university, retailers have been asked not to sell contraceptives. However, there are no legal or contractual restrictions preventing them from doing it.

Cable television

• Rumor: Cable television will not be available or its offerings will be restricted to eliminate X-rated channels

• Reality: Cable television will be available and will offer the same service available elsewhere

Source: The News-Press.com (http://www.news-press.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060304/NEWS01/603040503/1002/NEWS01)

[ysolde]

Thanks, isign. That is useful information.

[maxandmolly]

While I am distressed to hear your mother's story, this isn't a competition about how bad someone we are close to had it. I won't even go there.

ETA: sounds harsher than what I intended, but debate is hard in writing.
I wasn't trying to get into a my woe is me is better than your woe is me contest (besides, I'd win-I have lots more stories:p ). Really. It was just an example to illustrate that while "Where there is a will, there is a way" is a nice theory, sometimes, it just doesn't work. And to think or believe otherwise is a bit naive. And it can also be used by an excuse (by some, not you) to convince themselves that the poor 'choose' to stay that way-and that is where it becomes a dangerous concept.

[msnicolea]

Yeah--I guess I'll tell the mentally ill homeless man that "lives" at my bus stop that he should just suck it up--pull yourself up by those boot straps and stop whining!

[phoenics]

I had another thought about this town.

While I understand the desire to live amongst people who share your same values - fellowshipping and all - I wonder about it.

As a Christian, I'm charged with trying to lead a Christian example for those around me. But if I've sequestered myself away from everyone else and everyone around me is the same as me, then what good will that do?

I totally get that it can be tiring to feel like you're 'fighting the good fight' and you just need to rest at time... but I'm not sure segregation is the best idea.

Christians live in the world, but they should not be of the world - I get that. And I get that we should 'run' from temptation. But ... eh.

I can't figure out what bothers me about the total seclusion thing... maybe the exclusivity?

[phoenics]

Yeah--I guess I'll tell the mentally ill homeless man that "lives" at my bus stop that he should just suck it up--pull yourself up by those boot straps and stop whining!

I had some thoughts about this too - the area that I live in... you could find yourself homeless after one month if you lose your job and have no savings or any kind of pension or unemployment checks coming in. And even if you did have unemployment, you could still find yourself homeless really fast.

And even if you were well trained or very capable, you would need certain things to get a job after being homeless. You'd need a haircut, a suit, etc.. It's just not as simple as people make it.

I'm sure that homeless people would love to go and interview for a job. But how would they get the clothes? The grooming? The nice portfolio of their work (if the job is white-collar), etc..?

[looch]

I don't agree, but that is ok, we don't have to agree.


ETA: I will get my thoughts together on this one later. I am all jumbled up from a meeting!

[Dally]

I don't really agree that "where there's a will, there's a way" is always true. I do think it's a nice sentiment, and that it works for some things, but you can't control everything. Housing markets are ruled by supply/demand. Not everyone can live near major job centers because there is only so much space. That is certainly true where I live. The housing market is hot, and the average price of a house far exceeds what the average buyer can afford. So most of us are moving farther and farther away from our work places, and we commute (making for major traffic jams, but that's another story). That's the way it goes. *shrug* Not sure what Republican or Democrat has to do with it. It's economics.

As for this housing development. I wouldn't want to live there myself, but I don't have a problem with it from what I've read so far.

[looch]

Yes, housing prices are certainly driven by supply and demand. I wish that the ability to own a home was in every person's reach, but the fact is, as has been already said, home ownership is out of the question many, including mine, even though DH and I combined earn well into the six figures. So, for now we rent...not a unique situation, nor related to party lines.

When I was writing about there being a will and a way, I was thinking about the people who are poor, and don't want to remain poor, and people who are middle class who don't want to remain middle class. We are a nation of people who came to this country for the opportunities that are available here, and I hate to see the American spirit dismissed.

That's all from me on the topic!