Is Mel trying to start his own religion??

[LyLMyssChaos]

Mel Gibson Gives $5M 'Passion' Profits for Church

Mel Gibson has devoted $5 million of his "The Passion of the Christ" profits to expanding a religious compound near Malibu for Catholics who reject Vatican II reforms.

According to federal tax filings, Gibson gave the $5 million to his tax-free private foundation, which has already spent millions on the 17-acre religious compound in Agoura Hills, Calif., north of Malibu.

The compound includes the 9,000-square-foot Holy Family Catholic Church, which has about 70 members, and a collection of buildings under construction, Fox News reports.

Last year the AP Reilly Foundation - which Gibson named for his late mother - spent $115,000 on architect's fees, $171,000 on landscaping, $121,000 for engineering consulting and $50,000 on legal fees, according to Fox.

The tax filings show that Gibson's foundation now claims total net assets of $14 million, including the $5 million the actor deposited in 2005.

As noted recently by NewsMax, the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review revealed that Gibson is also establishing a church similar to Holy Family in Mt. Pleasant Township, Pa., called St. Michael the Archangel.

The church is located in a remodeled home, and Gibson was reportedly persuaded by his father, 87-year-old Hutton, to assist in the purchase of the structure for $315,000.

Mel and Hutton Gibson are followers of a breakaway branch of Catholicism that rejects the 1960s liturgical reforms implemented through the Second Vatican Council, including the abandonment of Latin in the Mass.

St. Michael the Archangel, like the Holy Family Church, is not recognized by the archdiocese.

[Aimee]

I don't think he's trying to start his own religion at all. There are lots of people who reject a lot or all of Vatican II. In New Orleans, I know of one church that does a weekly Latin Mass. Personally, I don't care for all of the "Vatican Rag" shenanigans that goes on at mass sometimes and think that a pendulum swing back towards the latin mass would be a good thing. At some churches, mass is getting less and less reverent and more like a Christian rock concert; they've ditched the beautiful classical music written for the Church in favor of guitar ballads and choirs of teenage girls trying to outsing each other. :rolleyes:

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

LMC, could you provide a link to the original article? Thanks!

[Sophia]

I'm trying to figure out how rejecting Vatican II equates to starting a new religion.

[msnicolea]

No.

[LyLMyssChaos]

I received the article in an email from newsmax, but here is the article on their website:
Mel Gibson Gives $5M 'Passion' Profits for Church (http://view.e.newsmax.com/?ffcb10-fe9317777c64057575-fdf515747d64007873127677-ff2c1d70746d)

[jp'swife]

Doesn't sound like it!

[LyLMyssChaos]

I'm trying to figure out how rejecting Vatican II equates to starting a new religion.


It was just a topic of discussion as according to the article he is building religious compounds and starting congregations that aren't recognized by the archdiocese. I'm not Catholic, so I don't understand anything about Vatican II, or any of that stuff. I just thought it could make a good topic of discussion.

[jennylou]

I don't think he's trying to start his own religion at all. There are lots of people who reject a lot or all of Vatican II. In New Orleans, I know of one church that does a weekly Latin Mass. Personally, I don't care for all of the "Vatican Rag" shenanigans that goes on at mass sometimes and think that a pendulum swing back towards the latin mass would be a good thing. At some churches, mass is getting less and less reverent and more like a Christian rock concert; they've ditched the beautiful classical music written for the Church in favor of guitar ballads and choirs of teenage girls trying to outsing each other. :rolleyes:

Wow, it always surprises me when people talk about these guitar masses.

At the Catholic Church I go to we sing hymns. The only instrument is the organ.

I'd think a little Latin would be neat - but I'm still trying to learn all of the mass parts in English. :)

And no, it doesn't sound like Mel Gibson is starting his own religion.

[jp'swife]

Wow, it always surprises me when people talk about these guitar masses.

At the Catholic Church I go to we sing hymns. The only instrument is the organ.


At our's, we only have singing (a choir or just the cantor) or the organ (or the piano) depending on the mass.

When I was younger, at our first church, our music director would play the guitar and there would also be an organ accompaniment along with singers of the choir. No masses in Latin though. Thank goodness.

[Sophia]

It was just a topic of discussion as according to the article he is building religious compounds and starting congregations that aren't recognized by the archdiocese. I'm not Catholic, so I don't understand anything about Vatican II, or any of that stuff. I just thought it could make a good topic of discussion.

It's been well known for a very long time that Mel Gibson would prefer that the Catholic Church abandon the changes on Vatican II and that he participates in congregations that are not recognized as "official."

[Aimee]

Wow, it always surprises me when people talk about these guitar masses.

At the Catholic Church I go to we sing hymns. The only instrument is the organ.

I'm glad to hear it's not like this everywhere. There's still hope! There are some churches around here where the style of mass resembles a TV mega-church, with the overhead projectors, full bands (not orchestra, but rock band, right down to the snare drums and bass) and hand waving and swaying. Other than the language of the Mass, it doesn't remotely resemble Catholicism. Mass takes an hour and a half sometimes, because, after the services, there's 20 minutes of people "announcing their good news" and singing happy birthday and happy anniversary to people. Some of these churches have even gone to full-immersion baptism. It's gotten really touchy-feely, where you're expected to introduce yourself to your neighbors before mass, hold hands at the Our Father, sometimes the priest challenges people to give 3 people a hug...it's all way too much for me. Apparently, I'm in the minority, though, since there are more churches that are like this than there are ones with "normal" masses.

//end hijack.

[jp'swife]

I'm glad to hear it's not like this everywhere. There's still hope! There are some churches around here where the style of mass resembles a TV mega-church, with the overhead projectors, full bands (not orchestra, but rock band, right down to the snare drums and bass) and hand waving and swaying. Other than the language of the Mass, it doesn't remotely resemble Catholicism. Mass takes an hour and a half sometimes, because, after the services, there's 20 minutes of people "announcing their good news" and singing happy birthday and happy anniversary to people. Some of these churches have even gone to full-immersion baptism. It's gotten really touchy-feely, where you're expected to introduce yourself to your neighbors before mass, hold hands at the Our Father, sometimes the priest challenges people to give 3 people a hug...it's all way too much for me. Apparently, I'm in the minority, though, since there are more churches that are like this than there are ones with "normal" masses.

//end hijack.

WOW! I'm sooo surprised that these are Catholic churches! Although, I wouldn't mind a little drum here or there to lighten things up a bit! :D
I think it depends on the church too. Most people at our Parish are very welcoming and friendly. You can talk (other than a whisper) right before church and no one gives you the evil eye....you see all types there from all walks of life and no one cares...it's really nice!
The first church I went to growing up was like this, then the second one (after my family moved) was just snotty. I couldn't stand those people (I know, not very Catholic) but they were very showy...all dressed up...didn't talk to anyone or very friendly....would be the same people to shake your hand during the 'sign of peace' only to later give you the finger as you left the parking lot if you pulled out in front of you....that's when I stopped going to church for a LONG time.
I love our church now. Just so much more sense of community and kindness to everyone.

[Sophia]

I don't go to Mass except for family events such as weddings, funerals, etc (I consider myself agnostic at this point; my kids are still participating in the church with their dad). The parishes I've been to have guitars and folksy type music, but nothing as involved as what Aimee described. Baptisms are still traditional, too.

[BTB]

It was just a topic of discussion as according to the article he is building religious compounds and starting congregations that aren't recognized by the archdiocese.

This movement (anti-Vatican II) already exists, the article states Mel Gibson is a follower of it, not the founder of it. So no, he's not trying to start his own religion. Sorry, but I just don't see an effective counterpoint, so not much discussion potential here.

[pocket]

Mel Gibson belongs to a sect that doesn’t believe in Vatican II for reasons that are not clear to me. I think they are anti-Semitic too because Vatican II was the end of millennia of anti-Jewish persecution by the Catholic church. When that Passion of Christ movie came out, everyone was falling to their knees about how awesome it was. I kept saying that he belonged to this weird sect that was a little bit anti-semitic and opposed to Vatican II.

[Aimee]

Mel Gibson belongs to a sect that doesn’t believe in Vatican II for reasons that are not clear to me.

I have talked to some people that don't believe the English mass was translated properly from Latin, and because of that, it's not a "valid" mass. Something about the transubstantiation not happening because of the invalid wording. Personally, I believe that the mystery of the Eucharist is flexible enough to withstand translation, and that God can read between the lines and "understand" what's intended, as long as the intentions are pure.

The "True" Catholic Church (http://www.truecatholic.org/) is a sect that doesn't believe in Vatican II. Very interesting reading if you have any familiarity with the Catholic Church.

Like with most things, I fall right in the middle of the spectrum. I don't think that Vatican II was invalid, but, in my area at least, the church has gotten too modern and secular for my tastes.

[ysolde]

WOW! I'm sooo surprised that these are Catholic churches! Although, I wouldn't mind a little drum here or there to lighten things up a bit! :D
I think it depends on the church too. Most people at our Parish are very welcoming and friendly. You can talk (other than a whisper) right before church and no one gives you the evil eye....you see all types there from all walks of life and no one cares...it's really nice!
The first church I went to growing up was like this, then the second one (after my family moved) was just snotty. I couldn't stand those people (I know, not very Catholic) but they were very showy...all dressed up...didn't talk to anyone or very friendly....would be the same people to shake your hand during the 'sign of peace' only to later give you the finger as you left the parking lot if you pulled out in front of you....that's when I stopped going to church for a LONG time.
I love our church now. Just so much more sense of community and kindness to everyone.


Heh heh. It's the same in the Episcopal Church. A lot depends on whether you are "High Church" or "Low Church". High Church means organ, choir, lots of Bach, Mozarabic chanting by the priests (great if your priests can sing, pretty painful if they can't), incense, candles, walking arond with the VERY old-fashioned Scriptures, etc. One Manhattan church, St. Mary the Virgin, is affectionately referred to as "Smoky Mary's" because of all the incense in the air. It's all about creating sacred time and sacred space. The Eucharist lasts about an hour and a half, and culminates in, well, the Eucharist (communion). The Low Church Tradition is more Protestant in nature -- simpler churches, simpler music, no incense, etc. Their Masses are shorter. Not my cup of tea. I am a big fan of ritual. I think ritual can be powerful.

Oops, sorry. This was in response to Aimee.

[greenbunny]

It's not a Catholic church, but our old drummer plays in a jazz band that does Sunday services. And our old singer, who is now a PhD student in opera, sings at Sunday services at another church as well. Some of the "new" stuff sounds really classy and cool (I've been to services to see them both perform).

[aussie]

I know that this is off topic, but it's being discussed somewhat so I thought I'd share ;)

I have been to churches that are traditional and those that are not. I even went to one church that tried to make pop songs religious - songs that anyone who knows anything about the lyrics and the band know that their intention was nothing close to praising God.

Anyway, I sort of like the more lively services. When I go back to a traditional service with traditional music it seems so mournful. We're supposed to be praising God. Put some pep into it for goodness sake.

[maniach]

where you're expected to introduce yourself to your neighbors before mass, hold hands at the Our Father

Yeah, I hate those churches where they make you get to know people. I go to church solely to commune with God and not for any sense of community...

Oh wait, that's right, I could do that at home by myself. And I forgot, I believe that the church is there specifically to provide community. How silly of me!

Have a blessed day. Don't hug anyone... you might get cooties.

[maniach]

Anyway, I sort of like the more lively services. When I go back to a traditional service with traditional music it seems so mournful. We're supposed to be praising God. Put some pep into it for goodness sake.

Amen to that! It always kinda weirds me out at mass when they start singing about how he is risen, but everyone seems all depressed about it... um, isn't that a GOOD thing?

[Aimee]

Yeah, I hate those churches where they make you get to know people. I go to church solely to commune with God and not for any sense of community...

Oh wait, that's right, I could do that at home by myself. And I forgot, I believe that the church is there specifically to provide community. How silly of me!

Have a blessed day. Don't hug anyone... you might get cooties.

That was incredibly rude and uncalled for. Just because my style of worship isn't the same of yours doesn't give you the right to be so rude and judgmental. I never said anything other than that style was "too much for me." I fully respect and understand that some people like it, but I choose to attend mass at parishes that are more traditional. However, it is difficult to find more traditional "high" masses in my area than it is the more modern services, and I would like to see a little moderation, since I believe there is room for both in the Church.

[jp'swife]

That was incredibly rude and uncalled for. Just because my style of worship isn't the same of yours doesn't give you the right to be so rude and judgmental. I never said anything other than that style was "too much for me." I fully respect and understand that some people like it, but I choose to attend mass at parishes that are more traditional. However, it is difficult to find more traditional "high" masses in my area than it is the more modern services, and I would like to see a little moderation, since I believe there is room for both in the Church.


Don't bother to explain yourself....she will only pick and choose what she wants to hear, just like she did out of your ENTIRE post.
:rolleyes:
I completely understood what you were getting at.

[chrisinluv]

I am happy to see the Church gaining some diversity. If Mel wants pre-VaticanII, I can't see why he's spending so much money on it. If I were him, I'd wait it out for a few years to see what Pope Benedict XVI is going to do. He's a real hardliner. I remember my Grandma telling me that he was extremely opposed to many of the changes made by Vatican II.

For me, I liked how one could walk into a Catholic church pretty much anywhere and know what you were going to get, what/how things would be sung/chanted... You knew the program. Nowadays, I must say, I have had a hard time finding the parrish for me. I like the old way, but I also see how making the environment more casual might attract more people who don't feel comfortable with the rituals.

Every time I attend a Catholic wedding, non-Catholics are usually invited to stay for mass, if they want. Many don't leave because they don't want to be rude. But it seems like they are confused by much of it, and only get relief when someone leans over to explain what's going on.

[lawyerlee]

A lot of people don't accept Vatican II. Just because someone doesn't practice Christianity the way you do or hold your same beliefs doesn't make him a freak.

[chrisinluv]

Catholics who lived pre-VaticanII have lots of great reasons for not wanting too much change. OTOH, change is necessary for the Church's ecumenical goals. It's alright to keep the latin masses alive, and it's also alright to keep the new more charismatic masses alive. We just each have to pick which parrish gives us the comfort we seek.

[Aimee]

Catholics who lived pre-VaticanII have lots of great reasons for not wanting too much change. OTOH, change is necessary for the Church's ecumenical goals. It's alright to keep the latin masses alive, and it's also alright to keep the new more charismatic masses alive. We just each have to pick which parrish gives us the comfort we seek.

ITA!! Couldn't have said it better myself.

I'd give you a hug, but I might get cooties ;)

[jp'swife]

ITA!! Couldn't have said it better myself.

I'd give you a hug, but I might get cooties ;)

yeah! no touching in here!! hands off! :D

[chrisinluv]

ITA!! Couldn't have said it better myself.

I'd give you a hug, but I might get cooties ;)


Don't worry, I'm a good Catholic girl! :)

[lisainpink]

Oh how I wish we had an organ! We are a fairly young Parish (a little over 30 years old) but we keep growing so fast that we can't get things the way we would like them. Our church seats 1700- but now that we have 5500 members- we need to build a new facility (maybe then we'll get an organ!) We have piano led traditional music Saturday p.m., and during Sunday 8 a.m and Sunday 11:15. Look out on Sunday night- they have the whole band complete with mandolin thing going on. DH says Sunday nights are a little more loose, a little more jeans, and a little more rock n' roll (not my taste for Mass- but okay.)
Most of our members hold hands during the Our Father- but my DH and I refuse. We just stand facing forward. It isn't that I don't want to know the people around me- I'm just kinda traditional. (I am very involved in our Parish. I am sponsoring a girl in RCIA and I'm sponsoring a young lady -whose family is all it Italy- for Confirmation.)