Standardized Testing for College Considered

[Mellow_Water1]

A higher education commission named by the Bush administration is examining whether standardized testing should be expanded into universities and colleges to prove that students are learning and to allow easier comparisons on quality.
Charles Miller, a business executive who is the commission's chairman, wrote in a memorandum recently to the 18 other members that he saw a developing consensus over the need for more accountability in higher education.
"What is clearly lacking is a nationwide system for comparative performance purposes, using standard formats," Miller wrote, adding that student learning was a main component that should be measured.

Source: New York Times (http://www.azstarnet.com/allheadlines/115121)

So I'm paying tuition only for this to be considered. :rolleyes: :mad:

The government has cut back on financial aid, and thinks they can impose standards like this?

[msnicolea]

How 'bout we start with standardized testing for the President, and go from there? Once he passes one, we can talk.

[fuzzy]

I think the heads of about half the people I work with just exploded.

(I work on a college campus and we've built up a reputation for being the "assesment gurus" wrt to higher ed. I think they've put in about five years of work to find a(n) instrument(s) that appropriately measures learning and, well, they're still working on it...)

[msnicolea]

And don't get me started on the cultural bias of these so called assessment tests--what a joke!

[batgirl]

This is crazy! He is such a dumbass.

It has been repeatedly stated by numerous organizations that the only thing a standardized test can tell you is how well you do on that particular standardized test.

Dumbass...

[wendalah]

Bad idea--college is voluntary, there's no law that says you have to go. Plus you have a choice as to which institution to attend (contingent of course on whether you can get in and/or pay for it). Also, only about a third of the nation even gets to go to college. Given this I think there's not really a need to standardize.

[msnicolea]

I do think that there needs to be more accountability re: things like grade inflation, for example, but standardized testing isn't the solution.

[southerner]

I'm lucky I got through elementary, middle and high school before No Child Left Behind got passed. I'm lucky I got through college before something like this happened too.

I don't know that I would have made it as far as I have educationally with standards such as these in place. I can't test for shit, but I think I'm smart enough and turned out okay.

[wendalah]

Also: The nature of instruction in college is too broad to standardize as well, since a lot of majors are purely vocational.

ETA: Disclaimer--I LOVE standardized tests because I kick ass on them! I am one of those weird people who test much better than they actually perform.

[Mellow_Water1]

Exactly, wendelah. When I pay for something, I have the right to use that service as I please.

One of my classmates said this is an effort by the Right to get rid of the liberal slant of universities, and I agree.

[lawyerlee]

What a horrible idea. I'm good at standardized tests, too, but I don't think they're worth a shit. :(

[wendalah]

Actually, forcing the university to prove its quality (i.e. why it costs so damn much) isn't a bad idea in and of itself. Just not practical.

I don't see how it would remove a liberal slant. Don't get that connect. Are students going to be kicked out if they don't get adequate scores? Or is the university just going to suffer a hit as not being up to scratch?

[southerner]

Are students going to be kicked out if they don't get adequate scores? Or is the university just going to suffer a hit as not being up to scratch?
I took it to mean it was going to have stats available for people choosing colleges. Which, in turn will change their admissions/acceptance standards if the people are using/comparing those standards in choosing where to apply. I didn't take it to mean that colleges will kick you out if you drop below *blank score*. Although, they could measure that too :rolleyes:

[jnettie]

This is so stupid!

Hmmm, well, the cost of school has so many factors. I see your point for schools like NYU, Harvard, etc. You are really paying for the name.

I work at a small, private college. It's moderatly high...I think $24,000 a year now with dorms. But we just get by. The Dance Dept., one of the largest in the school, has to have it's own fund raisers to meet cost. Tuition doesn't cover it. Many many many schools rely on donations from foundations and alumni to meet their expenses.

I would really worry about Public Universities, like the one I attend now for grad school. I bet these would be the ones that get controled first. We're already at the whim of the state for funding...testing would ruin what is actually a very good school.

The BEST thing about college is that you often get to learn from experts. Your professors create their classes based on their professional experience and what they think it is important for you to learn. Yes, sometimes you get the insane Literature teacher who has her own agenda, but that's a valuable lesson to learn, too. Standardizing would mean you would loose out on the individualization and love that college professors put into their classes.

[jnettie]

I took it to mean it was going to have stats available for people choosing colleges. Which, in turn will change their admissions/acceptance standards if the people are using/comparing those standards in choosing where to apply.
How on earth would they do this? Sure, maybe you could do this for a Math major, but what about a Theater major? How do you test an acting class? How do you test a Literature class? AP type tests? Or an art class?

When I was looking at schools, I also looked into what the graduates are doing. Are your Science majors working in major labs or going on the reputable medical schools? Are your Dance majors getting jobs in dance companies?

[batgirl]

Boy, this is really scary. The government wants a peek into college education... what's next? Will they have input into the hiring of new faculty?

"No, you already have too many people studying evolutionary biology, you need to hire an "intelligent design" person or loose your funding"???

Shit. Scary...

[Mellow_Water1]

The BEST thing about college is that you often get to learn from experts. Your professors create their classes based on their professional experience and what they think it is important for you to learn. Yes, sometimes you get the insane Literature teacher who has her own agenda, but that's a valuable lesson to learn, too. Standardizing would mean you would loose out on the individualization and love that college professors put into their classes.


ITA. I trust that professors can judge whether students are learning better than a standardized test can. I do agree that some sort of standard should be set, but, as PP have said, I don't think testing is the way to do it.

[chrisinluv]

I just wanted to post in order to get my sig in here. :p Just kidding.

I disagree with this wholeheartedly. I feel that most of my intellectual growth happened during my freshman and sophomore years of college. While my SAT scores were nothing to boast about (alright, they were lower than I'd like to admit), I graduated with a 3.76. I only received one C and one D in college. I think that I am an excellent example of why standardized testing is a bad idea.

I am also concerned about many of low-income potential students. When someone has had a chaotic and unstable childhood and adolescence, just getting to college is a hurdle, never mind the testing.

[greenbunny]

I'm lucky I got through elementary, middle and high school before No Child Left Behind got passed.

To those in the field, it's No Teacher Left Standing. :cool:

[laurenc]

agreed with others -- this is a bad bad bad idea. i have so many thoughts on the matter...

as it is, standardized testing in high schools has created this industry of testing companies, tutoring businesses, and college-admissions counselors. creating standardized testing for colleges will only fuel those businesses and widen the gap between the haves (people who can afford to "train" for the tests) and the have-nots (people who can't "train" beyond a few practice tests available at the library).

i can understand wanting standardized testing at the grade-school and high school level. after all, a country would want its average citizen to have basic reading, math, writing, and analytic skills. but at the college level, most students have already proven themselves capable of those "basics." what more would they want to show? that students who could write a one-page essay in high school can now write a two-page essay in college? whoopie.

like PP's have said, how would they even begin to compare, say, a dance major at a small private college devoted to the arts, an agriculture major at a large state school, a Bible studies major at a religious university, and a computer engineering student at MIT?

and the beauty of college is that you can choose what to study and how intensely you want to study it. you don't HAVE to study history beyond maybe one or two courses if you don't want to (and even still, you can choose a variety of history classes!). if biology is your passion, you can load up on biology classes and work in a lab. standardized testing would suck the fun out of college -- now, instead of taking that awesome social psychology class, you have to make sure you take some boring writing course because you'll get tested on it later.

oy. i could go on, but... well, i have to grade my university students' papers to make sure they are learning! :)

[SingleWhiteFemale]

How about me, the individual studies major? I study sex. How exactly are you gonna test me on that one, Bushie?

Mellow, what college do you go to, if you don't mind me asking?

[southerner]

jnettie, How on earth would they do what?
I don't think you can test all skills learned in college. Asie from the academia, there's survival skills, financial skills, social, skills, etc. that you learn too.

[Mellow_Water1]

Mellow, what college do you go to, if you don't mind me asking?

Wilkes University...a really small, private university in NE Pennsylvania.

[JamBray]

Great, so not only do I have to worry about and get through all of my upcoming science classes, I may now have to worry about standardized testing?! WTF? Where does he come up with this sh*t?

[dionysia]

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

My alma mater doesn't even require you to provide standardized test scores as a condition of admission, so I can't imagine them complying with such a requirement for current students.

Di

[jnettie]

Southerner...I'm not sure anymore! I was ranting.... I'll reread my post and what I was reacting to and clarify...:o

[wendalah]

OK so another thing I don't get: If there's no penalty to the students for getting low scores--how are they going to get an accurate read?

It's one thing to sit a bunch of young kids down and force them to take a test. But we're talking adults here, and with no incentive to do well on the test, who's to say some of them simply won't care much and just bang through it?

The only thing I can think of is, students won't want their alma mater to lose academic face, and in turn, minimize the value of their degree. But--is that enough? Seriously. I keep imagining a bunch of drunk students at a bar saying, "Have another round. Who gives a f-ck about that test tomorrow? Not like they're going to kick you out!"

[jnettie]

I took it to mean it was going to have stats available for people choosing colleges. Which, in turn will change their admissions/acceptance standards if the people are using/comparing those standards in choosing where to apply.
How on earth would they do this? Sure, maybe you could do this for a Math major, but what about a Theater major? How do you test an acting class? How do you test a Literature class? AP type tests? Or an art class?
Ok, I see. I was agreeing with you, but, then I went off questioning how one would go about testing to supply stats on subjective subjects like art and theater (or sex, like SWF's major).

This whole thing just pisses me off because I loved college an grad school and work now in higher education and hope to teach college my whole life. I wouldn't want all of the things that I love ruined by standardized testing.

[HisSpicy]

Oh great, so my parents are paying 40 grand a year just so I can suddenly be brought back to the public high school atmosphere and be taught to a test. :mad: And the performance these tests would be measuring (assuming they could do it successfully) is only a tiny part of what goes through a students mind when choosing a college. It took me months to pick which university to go to because each one would benefit me in a different way. I choose my school not just for the academic reputation, but for all the smaller features that together would give me the most opportunity and fullfillment.
I thought I was here to explore my interests and develop into a complete, grounded, experienced, educated individual. Apparently I was wrong, I'm just here to prove I can fill out some bubbles and blank space. :rolleyes:

[Jazz]

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? How would that even work? One test for everyone? (Good gracious, I hope not -- college is the time to focus on what you're interested in.) One test by discipline (liberal arts, science, engineering)? Moderately imaginable if still a nightmare. One test by major? Reasonable from a testing point of view (other than the sheer number that would be required), but far too much potential for meddling in details.

Besides:
A. Accreditation already provides some oversight, if more is even needed (???), that might be a better place to start.

B. If there's a need for standardized testing in a particular field, it probably already exists, and is doing just fine, thanks (i.e. engineering has the FE = fundamentals of engineering exam).

C. Forget getting college students to cooperate, you think faculty will agree to teach to a standardized exam? Ha.