King funeral used as a political platform

[LyLMyssChaos]

Speakers seized on the presence of United States President George W Bush to attack his policies on Tuesday at the funeral of Coretta Scott King, the first lady of the US civil rights movement.

Ex-president Jimmy Carter took a jab at Bush's domestic eavesdropping programme during six hours of sermons, speeches and song for the late widow of Nobel peace laureate Martin Luther King jun, assassinated in 1968.

The 10 000 mourners also heard the Reverend Joseph Lowery, a civil-rights leader, cite Mrs King's legacy as a champion of non-violence and racial equality while launching barbs at Bush administration policies on Iraq and health care.
The Whole Story (http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1877260,00.html)


I think that no matter where you stand politically or how you feel on these topics that this was not the time or place to address such issues. I feel that this was extremely disrespectful to Mrs. King and her family. It should have been purely to remember Mrs. King and to honor her.

[sue-bert]

I think that if the deceased has spoken out on specific political issues, then it's okay to refer to those issues at the funeral, as long as it doesn't disturb the dignity of the ceremony. Otherwise, I think it's in poor taste at best, offensive and opportunistic at worst.

I must admit ignorance here: Did Loretta Scott King ever actively champion her views about the issues that were brought up? Or were these topics brought up gratuitously?

s-b

[Asha]

sadly i must admit that i don't know what political beliefs and rights corretta scott king championed for besides of dr. martin luther king jr. though, one of their biggest beliefs of nonviolence does completely conflict with that of the current administration.

[Delta]

Carter talked about how MLK was wiretapped by the government - alluding to the NASA wiretapping controversy. (Of course, he didn't mention it was RFK who did that.)

Also, Rev. Lowery said something about how there were no WMD's and everyone cheered. When he was done with his speech, Bush gave him a hug apparently. (Trying to be the better man or something.)

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/ap/20060207/capt.gadm13902072034.aptopix_coretta_scott_king_bu sh_gadm139.jpg?x=380&y=313&sig=6xhLjPMHqSh.v0WIKaPYOw--

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

I don't think you can automatically say that this was disrespectful. Some people would be perfectly fine with a political agenda being pushed at their memorial if it was in line with their own.
For example- there have been a couple well-publicized obituaries that asked people to remember them by donating to liberal organizations to defeat Bush. I'm sure there have probably been similar things that were pro-conservative orgs as well.

[Delta]

Sure, judging by their reactions, plenty of people at the funeral didn't seem offended. And I have no idea what CSK would have thought about what was said, so I can't say anything to that.

What I can say is that Dems sure do know how to turn funerals in to political rallies. I'm sure we all remember Wellstone's.

[batgirl]

Do you really think that Bush made an appearance for strictly non-political reasons? I was hoping that CSK's family would have thrown the bum out.

[flygirl]

What I can say is that Dems sure do know how to turn funerals in to political rallies. I'm sure we all remember Wellstone's.
Bush 41 made comments about Rev. Lowery's speech, so this rally was not limited to Dems.

[msnicolea]

Come on Delta--that happens on both sides of the aisle.

I think Bush should have been there--sitting presidents attend funerals of prominent people all the time--and she was an extraordinary woman. I have no problem with his attendance, although I recognize the irony.

I'm quite sure that the speakers were invited by Mrs. King's family and what matters to me is whether or not THEY were comfortable with the content, not anyone else.

[mgrace]

What I can say is that Dems sure do know how to turn funerals in to political rallies. I'm sure we all remember Wellstone's.
Does it always have to be made into a party issue?

Ex-president Jimmy Carter took a jab at Bush's domestic eavesdropping programme
So it didn't have anything to do with the fact that MLK Jr. was wiretapped?

[chrisinluv]

Ex-president Jimmy Carter took a jab at Bush's domestic eavesdropping programme during six hours of sermons, speeches and song for the late widow of Nobel peace laureate Martin Luther King jun, assassinated in 1968.

No he didn't. CSK was wiretapped, and it wasn't done during the Bush administration, so it isn't a "jab" at Bush. Some members of the King family believe that the government and its suspicion of MLK caused or contributed to his death, making Mrs. King a widow!
random search for a source: is the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/4/newsid_2453000/2453987.stm) good enough?
Here is the one so-called jabbing quote from the story linked in the OP:
"It was difficult for them personally with the civil liberties of both husband and wife violated, and they became the targets of secret government wiretapping and other surveillance," Carter said

Um, don't see anything referring to President Bush there. I'm not saying that other people didn't take jabs, because they did. But let's be honest about Carter, please, thanks.

[Graffy]

I think it showed disrespect for the office of president and for the deceased, regardless of what her beliefs on the issue would have been.

[msnicolea]

How was CSK "disrespected?"

[pocket]

CSK was an activist. Her entire life and legacy are about speaking out for the better world she worked to make. I think there could be no better tribute.

Furthermore, the Wellstone funeral - the media coverage depicting it as a democratic rally is completely contrived. tsk - everyone knows that. ask anyone who was there or read the coverage for yourself. that's historical revisionsim in action.

[mgrace]

Furthermore, the Wellstone funeral - the media coverage depicting it as a democratic rally is completely contrived
You are right. Thanks for posting that. I watched the memorial service and didn't feel that it was a rally. Of course, I'm sure I'm just a biased liberal.

[lawyerlee]

Sure, judging by their reactions, plenty of people at the funeral didn't seem offended. And I have no idea what CSK would have thought about what was said, so I can't say anything to that.

What I can say is that Dems sure do know how to turn funerals in to political rallies. I'm sure we all remember Wellstone's.
This kind of bs talk gets really old. :(

[Ebaskio]

These "leaders" should be exteremly embarrassed that they took this woman's funeral and turned it into a political circus. Funny how so many on the left preach and whine about seperation of church and state, yet some of their biggest supporters, African Americans, go to church every Sunday to hear their pastor preach about politics and how to get over on "the man."

I guarantee you that when Clinton dies, the republicans will not mention Clinton getting BJs in the Oval Office at his service.

[flygirl]

First of all, Ebaskio. what do Clinton bjs have to do with this thread?

Second, "these 'leaders,'" as you say, are on both sides of the aisle. Both Bushes used the platform to promote their agendas.

Third, as has been mentioned in this thread many times over, CSK was a political activist. Can you imagine MLK's funeral without political undertones?

Finally, how do you know that AA reverands preach a political message every Sunday?

[jennylou]

I had a big response to Ebaskio, but I see flygirl has already said it better than I could.

[MLA]

Thanks, flygirl, for saying what I wanted to say to Ebaskio but in a much nicer way.

Honestly, I think the only opinions that matter here are the opinions of the King children and CSL's other family members. I haven't heard anything about what they thought of the ceremony. If they were happy, then there's nothing to be upset about. If they weren't happy, then maybe there is something to be upset about. Personally, I have a hunch that they were probably perfectly happy with the ceremony, as their father's funeral was full of political messages. The eulogy at MLK's funeral included direct discussion of civil rights and the Vietnam War. But until I know for sure what her kids think about it, I plan not to form a strong opinion.

[lawyerlee]

These "leaders" should be exteremly embarrassed that they took this woman's funeral and turned it into a political circus. Funny how so many on the left preach and whine about seperation of church and state, yet some of their biggest supporters, African Americans, go to church every Sunday to hear their pastor preach about politics and how to get over on "the man."

I guarantee you that when Clinton dies, the republicans will not mention Clinton getting BJs in the Oval Office at his service.
Wow. Why don't you just put "I'm a big old racist" in your signature and cut to the chase? Pathetic.

Who the hell are you to dictate the form her funeral took? Are you a family member or friend? And have you spent a lot of time in black churches or something? Please, enlighten us.

[Delta]

No he didn't. CSK was wiretapped, and it wasn't done during the Bush administration, so it isn't a "jab" at Bush. Some members of the King family believe that the government and its suspicion of MLK caused or contributed to his death, making Mrs. King a widow!
random search for a source: is the BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/4/newsid_2453000/2453987.stm) good enough?
Um, don't see anything referring to President Bush there. I'm not saying that other people didn't take jabs, because they did. But let's be honest about Carter, please, thanks.
It was blatant snide jab right at Bush. I really don't see why you are trying to argue otherwise. :confused:

[Delta]

This kind of bs talk gets really old. :(:confused:

Sorry, just calling it like I see it, you may not agree, but what can I do?

[Delta]

Furthermore, the Wellstone funeral - the media coverage depicting it as a democratic rally is completely contrived. tsk - everyone knows that. ask anyone who was there or read the coverage for yourself. that's historical revisionsim in action.
I guess we were watching totally different events then. Talk about revisionism. People were yelling for Mondale and booing the Republicans that were there. Jesse Ventura walked out.

[maxandmolly]

I guess we were watching totally different events then. Talk about revisionism. People were yelling for Mondale and booing the Republicans that were there. Jesse Ventura walked out.
Well, if the wrestler walked out, that must make it true.

[lawyerlee]

:confused:

Sorry, just calling it like I see it, you may not agree, but what can I do?
By at least *trying* not to perpetuate lies like the one you shared about Wellstone's funeral. I really thought you were more interested in the truth than you seem to be. :(

[lawyerlee]

It was blatant snide jab right at Bush. I really don't see why you are trying to argue otherwise. :confused:
Um, actually, it would be a stab at J. Edgar Hoover, wouldn't it? Bushies peeps sure are getting paranoid.

[Delta]

By at least *trying* not to perpetuate lies like the one you shared about Wellstone's funeral. I really thought you were more interested in the truth than you seem to be. :(
Lies? LOL.

[Ebaskio]

Wow. Why don't you just put "I'm a big old racist" in your signature and cut to the chase? Pathetic.


I love how you take my words and spin them into your own little typecast of what you want them to mean. The fact is 98% of African Americans are Democrats. It has nothing to do with racism, it's a fact. You want to characterize me as a racist (which is based on nothing but your own ignorant comprehension of a statement) because I stated a fact when "in fact" you know absolutely nothing about me and frankly that is pathetic................and typical.





Nice try though.

P.S.-Love the edit to add the profanity......Classy.

[Delta]

Um, actually, it would be a stab at J. Edgar Hoover, wouldn't it? Bushies peeps sure are getting paranoid.Um, yeah. OK. That's why the crowd cheered him and every news report I've seen is calling it a stab at Bush.

I guess they are all just paranoid Bushies.

[lawyerlee]

I love how you take my words and spin them into your own little typecast of what you want them to mean. The fact is 98% of African Americans are Democrats. It has nothing to do with racism, it's a fact. You want to characterize me as a racist (which is based on nothing but your own ignorant comprehension of a statement) because I stated a fact when "in fact" you know absolutely nothing about me and frankly that is pathetic................and typical.





Nice try though.

P.S.-Love the edit to add the profanity......Classy.
You clearly have no idea what I added when I edited, so whatever. Further, don't get all up in arms just because you don't care for my reaction to your incredibly ignorant comments. You're offensive, and I don't have any regret in calling you out for it.

[lawyerlee]

Oh, and your comments weren't about Democrats, they were about African-Americans - a race. So don't try to make it sound like your thoughts are somehow defensible as comments about a political party. You didn't make them about a political party, now did you?

[lawyerlee]

Lies? LOL.
Yeah, you're a real card. What is your deal? Were you being truthful about Wellstone's funeral or spreading propaganda?

[Delta]

Propaganda? I watched the thing on TV and had to change the channel I was so embarrassed for them. It was bad. I'm sure that Wellstone's supporters don't see it that way, but it was bad, especially for them in the long run. It was probably because of that event that Coleman won.

[lawyerlee]

Propaganda? I watched the thing on TV and had to change the channel I was so embarrassed for them. It was bad.
As though you supported his work in the first place? You're not a progressive, so why would you assume you have any idea what a progressive politician would want his funeral to be like? :confused:

[Delta]

As though you supported his work in the first place? You're not a progressive, so why would you assume you have any idea what a progressive politician would want his funeral to be like? :confused:I don't think I claimed any of those things. :confused:

[lawyerlee]

I don't think I claimed any of those things. :confused:
The point is, why would anyone expect you to be comfortable with his funeral? It wasn't for you. I'm sure progressives everywhere are horrified that you were "embarrassed".

[chrisinluv]

It was blatant snide jab right at Bush. I really don't see why you are trying to argue otherwise. :confused:

I don't see why you don't see why I'm "trying to argue otherwise." Why don't you try to make your point with logic and facts. :confused: I'm waiting for you to quote Carter directly accusing Bush of surveilling and wiretapping.

On funerals:
If I died today, I expect that people who speak at my funeral would most likely talk about my values, morals, and political beliefs. I would assume that anyone who said anything would either speak from a perspective of agreement, or keep their mouths shut. It is no surprise to me that people would do the same at the funeral of an politically active person, regardless of their affiliation.

[MLA]

I love how you take my words and spin them into your own little typecast of what you want them to mean. The fact is 98% of African Americans are Democrats. It has nothing to do with racism, it's a fact. You want to characterize me as a racist (which is based on nothing but your own ignorant comprehension of a statement) because I stated a fact when "in fact" you know absolutely nothing about me and frankly that is pathetic................and typical.


"Typical"? You have, what, 18 posts on here . . . how do you know what's typical of Lawyerlee or anyone else on these boards? I think you're being pretty presumptuous. And for what it's worth, I agree that your original remarks sounded very racist, and I think Lawyerlee was right in calling you out.


Has anyone heard anything about what the King children thought about the funeral? I'd really be interested in knowing what their thoughts were.

[Delta]

I don't see why you don't see why I'm "trying to argue otherwise." Why don't you try to make your point with logic and facts. :confused: I'm waiting for you to quote Carter directly accusing Bush of surveilling and wiretapping.


He didn't need to say it directly. Everyone knew what he was alluding too. It's called insinuation. That is why some people at the funeral cheered, and as I said before, every news report I have read has mentioned the comment as some sort of jab at the NSA deal.

And look, of course he had every right to say it and I am sure he does feel very strongly about the issue, but IMO it seems doing something like that at a funeral would be beneath a former president.

[Delta]

The point is, why would anyone expect you to be comfortable with his funeral? It wasn't for you. I'm sure progressives everywhere are horrified that you were "embarrassed".My point was that I was not the only one with that reaction. As I said before, I'm sure his supporters loved it and did not see it as a rally or what have you, but rather as heartfelt outbursts. I am telling you what I saw, and what others apparently saw. It was not lies or propaganda or revisionist history. My other point was that regardless of how his supporters viewed it, it came back to hurt them in the end.

[batgirl]

Here is the eulogy give by Martin Luther King Jr. at the funeral of 3 of the 4 children killed in the Sixteenth Street Baptist Church Bombing on Sept 18, 1963 in Birmingham, Alabama...

This afternoon we gather in the quiet of this sanctuary to pay our last tribute of respect to these beautiful children of God. They entered the stage of history just a few years ago, and in the brief years that they were privileged to act on this mortal stage, they played their parts exceedingly well. Now the curtain falls; they move through the exit; the drama of their earthly life comes to a close. They are now committed back to that eternity from which they came.

These children-unoffending, innocent, and beautiful-were the victims of one of the most vicious and tragic crimes ever perpetrated against humanity.

And yet they died nobly. They are the martyred heroines of a holy crusade for freedom and human dignity. And so this afternoon in a real sense they have something to say to each of us in their death. They have something to say to every minister of the gospel who has remained silent behind the safe security of stained-glass windows. They have something to say to every politician [Audience:] (Yeah) who has fed his constituents with the stale bread of hatred and the spoiled meat of racism. They have something to say to a federal government that has compromised with the undemocratic practices of southern Dixiecrats (Yeah) and the blatant hypocrisy of right-wing northern Republicans. (Speak) They have something to say to every Negro (Yeah) who has passively accepted the evil system of segregation and who has stood on the sidelines in a mighty struggle for justice. They say to each of us, black and white alike, that we must substitute courage for caution. They say to us that we must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced the murderers. Their death says to us that we must work passionately and unrelentingly for the realization of the American dream...

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/2/8/133111/3227

Sound political???

[IrisHope]

Batgirl, you're awesome.

[msnicolea]

I hope that the speakers at my funeral talk about those things that mattered most to me, the issues I was most passionate about, rather than some fluff piece. I would be honored by that kind of a tribute.

As for you, Ebaskio--others have already commented on the ridiculous, bigoted nature of your comments, so I'll sit this one out.

[longislandlolita]

These "leaders" should be exteremly embarrassed that they took this woman's funeral and turned it into a political circus. Funny how so many on the left preach and whine about seperation of church and state, yet some of their biggest supporters, African Americans, go to church every Sunday to hear their pastor preach about politics and how to get over on "the man."

I guarantee you that when Clinton dies, the republicans will not mention Clinton getting BJs in the Oval Office at his service.

This is so interesting! You know, although I'm white I have attended a number of services at predominantly African-American churches, and I have NEVER heard a political sermon or one that mentioned "the man." Clearly I have been missing out! Can you tell me what church you attend? Or did you just watch "Undercover Brother" and get confused?

[msnicolea]

This is so interesting! You know, although I'm white I have attended a number of services at predominantly African-American churches, and I have NEVER heard a political sermon or one that mentioned "the man." Clearly I have been missing out! Can you tell me what church you attend? Or did you just watch "Undercover Brother" and get confused?


LMAO! "Why's it gotta get all racial up in this piece?"

[asksmd94]

This is so interesting! You know, although I'm white I have attended a number of services at predominantly African-American churches, and I have NEVER heard a political sermon or one that mentioned "the man." Clearly I have been missing out! Can you tell me what church you attend? Or did you just watch "Undercover Brother" and get confused?

Hello!!!!!! I am AA and my pastor doesn't do that. Now, most members I talk with don't like it when a pastor does get up and speak politically because he is mostly speaking on what he believes and assuming his congregation agrees because we are all are AA's.

I don't understand what the big fuss is about because I don't think the King children would have chosen people to speak that would have disgraced their mother.

I hope that the speakers at my funeral talk about those things that mattered most to me, the issues I was most passionate about, rathe than some fluff piece. I would be honored by that kind of a tribute.

Yes, ITA!!!!!

[msnicolea]

I don't understand what the big fuss is about because I don't think the King children would have chosen people to speak that would have disgraced their mother.

Exactly. I find it a bit presumptuous to assert that this service wasn't EXACTLY the way she and her family would have wanted it.

[flygirl]

CSK was not just an advocate for civil rights. Her focus, as was her husband's, was NON-VIOLENCE. And not just no-violence in achieving civil rights; she was very outspoken against the war.

Lowery & Carter both took jabs at the current Administration. I admit that. But it was only because they represented King's experiences and beliefs. CSK & MLK were wiretapped, and it's believed by many to have led to his death. I wouldn't have been surprised if it were mentioned at the funeral even without the current scandal.

Honestly, I think Lowery's remarks were much harsher than Carter's. But the bottom line is that he accurately represented her beliefs and those of the family. Why should he censor himself just because the President is present? That, to me, would be a true disservice to CSK.

To quote Colbert King of The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2006/02/08/BL2006020801337_4.html?sub=AR):
Of course, that legacy was non-violence. And you can't come to a funeral where you eulogize Coretta Scott King and not talk about non- violence, and the presence of violence in the world.

"You can't come to a celebration of the life of Coretta Scott King and [not] talk about civil liberties and the infringement on her civil liberties by her own government. You cannot do that and be true to the King family.

As an aside, I thought the cheers & remarks when the Clintons' took the mic were hillarious. Clinton said, "I'm honored to be here with my president and my former presidents," and someone yelled out, "And future president!"

[Delta]

I agree that if the speakers believed the best way to honor her memory was to take jabs at the president sitting behind them, then they had that right. Or if people thought the best way to honor Wellstone at his memorial was to boo the Republicans in attendance then they can do that too. But it certainly doesn't help their cause. ::shrug::

[alootikki]

But it certainly doesn't help their cause. ::shrug::

What does this mean? If the best way to memorialize someone is to speak passionately about their core beliefs and values, how is that not "helping the cause?" It may not appeal to those who don't share those beliefs and values, but that's not the point.

The Wellstone memorial is just like the Dean "scream" - an attempt to paint liberals/democrats as hysterical and unhinged. Come on. The spin does not match reality.

[msnicolea]

I heart alootikki.

[lawyerlee]

I agree that if the speakers believed the best way to honor her memory was to take jabs at the president sitting behind them, then they had that right. Or if people thought the best way to honor Wellstone at his memorial was to boo the Republicans in attendance then they can do that too. But it certainly doesn't help their cause. ::shrug::
Oh, the poor Republicans. Puh-lease.

[alootikki]

Aww msnicolea, I heart you too!

But seriously - the whole "it's not appropriate" thing gets old.

It's not "appropriate" to speak out against the war, because that emboldens the terrorists.

It wasn't "appropriate" for Cindy Sheehan to wear an anti-war T-shirt.

It wasn't even appropriate for Ron Reagan to speak at his own father's funeral and say that his father would not have agreed with some of the current administration's positions. Because that was crossing the line by being "political", while the whole multi-day pageantry of course, was not political at all! :rolleyes:

[lawyerlee]

Aww msnicolea, I heart you too!

But seriously - the whole "it's not appropriate" thing gets old.
It certainly does!

And the idea that progressives are hurting our cause? Why don't conservatives let us decide that for ourselves. If you aren't a progressive, how in the hell would you know what is appealing to progressives? :(

[Delta]

I think you are all missing my point. Progressives aren't going to win over any moderates. Winning moderates means winning elections. And I understand that politics may not be the point or the objective at times like this. But it's still a reality.

And I am not making any judgements about whether it was appropriate or not, I am just speaking to the political conseqences.

[msnicolea]

And I am not making any judgements about whether it was appropriate or not, I am just speaking to the political conseqences.


Then it's YOU who is politicizing the funeral, not the Democrats in attendance.

[asksmd94]

It may not appeal to those who don't share those beliefs and values, but that's not the point.

This is what it pretty much boils down to. When it goes against what you think/believe, you can find everything wrong with what is said/done. But, when you agree, it's the best thing since blow dryers.

As an aside, I thought the cheers & remarks when the Clintons' took the mic were hillarious

And a bit overboard, IMO:eek: Now that, I didn't feel like was necessary.

[mgrace]

The Wellstone memorial is just like the Dean "scream" - an attempt to paint liberals/democrats as hysterical and unhinged. Come on. The spin does not match reality.
Thank you for posting that. ITA.

Anyone that ever listened to Paul Wellstone speak knows that you can't separate him from being passionate.

[lawyerlee]

Then it's YOU who is politicizing the funeral, not the Democrats in attendance.
Exactly.

[artist]

If I hear one more NON-Minnesotan out there pretend to know what Wellstone's funeral was like, I will scream! I am so sick of non-Minnesotans, in particular Republicans thinking they somehow are in the know about the Wellstone memorial OR his life! I was actually there. I think it's just wonderful how the Rush Limbaughs of the world completely distort these things and brainwash all the righties and thinking they somehow know it all or that they were there. I was there.

Actually, if I died tomorrow, I kind of hope people DO critisize Bush at my funeral! (I hope I live longer then the Bush administration though!)

I could say though, I just love how the Republicans completely STOLE the Wellstone bumper stickers and made a bunch of really cheesy copy cat versions that were the same color green with the same font in white letters that said "Reagan!" explanation point and all. All this because Reagan died. Now THAT was offensive to me! Let Wellstone have the green bus and the green sticker. Make your own damn bumper stickers. Plus, the Wellstone stickers were around because Wellstone happened to be RUNNING for office at the time of his death. Reagan was not running for anything when he died. It seems really dumb to have stickers for him just because he is dead. Heck, flags were half mast for Reagan for I swear several months. It was only a few days or a week for Wellstone. I know he was never a president, but he was the Senator of my state.

[PG-rated]

Funny how so many on the left preach and whine about seperation of church and state, yet some of their biggest supporters, African Americans, go to church every Sunday to hear their pastor preach about politics and how to get over on "the man."
Leaving aside whether this is actually true, I suppose that means it's OK that conservative Christian churches routinely support the president's policies in their sermons, since many on the right advocate stronger ties between religion and government?
And I'm basing that on my own experience - I hear sermons espousing various Republican social policies on a regular basis, and Catholics are more liberal than many U.S. Christian denominations.

[lawyerlee]

If I hear one more NON-Minnesotan out there pretend to know what Wellstone's funeral was like, I will scream! I am so sick of non-Minnesotans, in particular Republicans thinking they somehow are in the know about the Wellstone memorial OR his life! I was actually there. I think it's just wonderful how the Rush Limbaughs of the world completely distort these things and brainwash all the righties and thinking they somehow know it all or that they were there. I was there.
Just wanted to agree with you, artist, that these comments totally smack of Limbaugh-style exaggeration and lies. :(

[Delta]

Then it's YOU who is politicizing the funeral, not the Democrats in attendance.Yes, you are right. Lowery and Carter and the cheerers in attendence were not making any sort of political statements at all.

And again, for those who are getting so upset about my comments about Wellstone's memorial - those were my impressions about what happened (as I was watching it) as well as many, many others. I understand you didn't see it the same way I did. But I didn't know I had to be a Wellstone supporter to have an opinion on what I saw.

[lawyerlee]

Yes, you are right. Lowery and Carter and the cheerers in attendence were not making any sort of political statements at all.

And again, for those who are getting so upset about my comments about Wellstone's memorial - those were my impressions about what happened (as I was watching it) as well as many, many others. I understand you didn't see it the same way I did. But I didn't know I had to be a Wellstone supporter to have an opinion on what I saw.
It's just so, oh, I don't know, funny, that you had the same exact thought as Limbaugh, Noonan, and other right wingers. What a coincidence!

[artist]

I guarantee you that when Clinton dies, the republicans will not mention Clinton getting BJs in the Oval Office at his service.

Bullshit! That's probably ALL the Republicans will talk about! Hell, they STILL bash the Clintons even though Bill isn't the president anymore. They bash and bash and bash and bash and bash the Clintons non-stop, yet get all huffy if anyone dares say a peep about our oh so lovely current president who has a brain the size of a pea or if anyone dares say anything against the war.

Considering the Clintons continue to get bashed depsite Clinton not being the president anymore (and they got bashed before Hilary was a Senator too), I am assuming he will just get bashed at his own funeral. It really wouldn't surprise me.

And again, for those of you claiming to know it all about the Wellstone funeral, turn off Fox and read the Al Franken book. Al Franken WAS there too!

[PG-rated]

Yes, you are right. Lowery and Carter and the cheerers in attendence were not making any sort of political statements at all.
Leaving aside Lowery for the moment, are you honestly saying that it was inappropriate to note in a eulogy for a civil rights leader that her civil rights were violated throughout her life? I simply can't understand that.

And I think the fact that you are willing to decide that it was a slam against Bush based on media extrapolations (as opposed to an analysis of Carter's actual words) says a lot about your view of the Wellstone funeral.

[Delta]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/printout/0,8816,388903,00.html

Saturday, Nov. 09, 2002
Fallout from a Memorial
Did the memorial service for Paul Wellstone cost Democrats the election?
By MATTHEW COOPER

Did the memorial service for Paul Wellstone cost Democrats the election?

A backlash against the politically charged service almost certainly helped Norm Coleman beat Walter Mondale for Wellstone's Minnesota Senate seat. And a private poll by Bill Clinton's former pollster, Mark Penn, suggests the service backfired on Democrats nationally as well.

Penn found that 68% of voters knew about the service—a high awareness of an event broadcast live nationally only on C-SPAN. What's more, 49% of voters said the service made them less likely to vote for a Democrat—and 67% of independents said they felt that way. One Democrat who quickly sensed that the service was a political disaster was Senator John Kerry of Massachusetts, a possible 2004 presidential contender.

The next morning Kerry called Senate Republican Leader Trent Lott, who had been booed at the memorial, to tell him how bad he felt. Penn believes national security was ultimately a bigger issue. His poll shows a stunning 65% of voters thought Democrats weren't supportive enough of the President's war on terror. "That was the issue," says Penn. "But the memorial didn't help."

[artist]

It's just so, oh, I don't know, funny, that you had the same exact thought as Limbaugh, Noonan, and other right wingers. What a coincidence!

Yep, and also interesting that Delta and those people you mentioned (Limbaugh, Noonan, etc.) ALSO were not THERE! If you weren't there, you really don't know. And if your sources of information are Limbaugh, FOX News, and CSNBC, then you really don't have a damn clue.

[msnicolea]

Anyone that says they didn't vote Democrat because of the Wellstone funeral is either a liar or an idiot. Who bases their vote on the behavior of a few people at one event? Ridiculous. Those people polled were leacing Republican anyway--give me a $#%&$#&# break.

[Delta]

Leaving aside Lowery for the moment, are you honestly saying that it was inappropriate to note in a eulogy for a civil rights leader that her civil rights were violated throughout her life? I simply can't understand that.

No, it was not inappropriate if that is what he thinks honors her memory. But it doesn't make it less political.

[Delta]

There is so much denial going on in this thread I can't even keep up.

[msnicolea]

There is so much denial going on in this thread I can't even keep up.

And you are such a "yes" woman, Delta--does the Republican Party send you a monthly check?

[artist]

There is so much denial going on in this thread I can't even keep up.

Denial on the part of those of you who were not there!

Read chapter 25 someday. It might be an eye opening experience for you.
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0525947647.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

[lawyerlee]

There is so much denial going on in this thread I can't even keep up.
Your own, you mean?

[LyLMyssChaos]

I don't know anything about the Wellstone memorial, so I can't comment on that, but I will comment and say that to tell someone to turn off Fox and to read Al Franken, is just having someone go from being conservative biased to liberal biased. Al Franken is NOT neutral. I think of him in the same vein as Rush, just for the left.

[alootikki]

Anyone that says they didn't vote Democrat because of the Wellstone funeral is either a liar or an idiot. Who bases their vote on the behavior of a few people at one event? Ridiculous.

Exactly. Or if this is true, we have much, much deeper problems with the way voters here think!

[PG-rated]

No, it was not inappropriate if that is what he thinks honors her memory. But it doesn't make it less political.
So if she had died while Clinton was in office, would the statement still have been political? Because I feel pretty confident that it would have come up no matter when she died. FBI surveillance of the Kings is an important part of their life story. If you only think it's political because there happens to be an ongoing debate about the power of the president to wiretap domestically, then you're the one making it political.

[PG-rated]

Al Franken is not neutral politically, but has written a very personal and balanced account of the Wellstone funeral from a first-person perspective. He does talk about why the rest of the country drew different conclusions from the people who were there, and he doesn't place all of the blame on Republicans (IIRC).

[msnicolea]

Again--Al Franken was AT the funeral, which automatically gives him more credibility.

[LyLMyssChaos]

Al Franken is not neutral politically, but has written a very personal and balanced account of the Wellstone funeral from a first-person perspective. He does talk about why the rest of the country drew different conclusions from the people who were there, and he doesn't place all of the blame on Republicans (IIRC).

Oh I understand, and from what I understand, Delta herself watched the memorial service on TV and is just speaking her opinion on what she witnessed. I don't see how other posters are jumping all over her for expressing her opinion of what she witnessed at that particular "event."

[artist]

LMC-

With all due respect though, Franken at least does his homework. Rush simply talks out his ass. Rush will take one snippet of something and completely distort it and blow it way out of proportion. Al Franken actually does research on the stuff he talks/writes about.

I seriously do challenge any Republican out there to read chapter 25 of that book. If anything, to at least understand where the other side is coming from. I think it's important for people to attempt to get information from a variety of sources. And I must say that being at the funeral in person is much more telling then seeing something on t.v. or hearing it on the radio. A lot of that was distorted.

[artist]

Also, I love that someone brought up Jesse Ventura in this thread! He was so "offended" yet he chewed gum I think through the whole thing. Not to mention he is really the last person who should be talking about being "offended". He pretty much pissed off a different group of people every week by not thinking before he got in front of a camera. Again, I live in Minnesota. I survived Jesse. I remember. The rest of you in other parts of the country probably just remember him getting on a bunch of late night shows promoting his book about all the hookers he had slept with, all this while our tax dollars were paying his salary.

[lawyerlee]

Here's what Peggy Noonan and Rush Limbaugh said about Wellstone's memorial service:

'No Class' (http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=110002554)
What Paul Wellstone might have thought of the memorial rally.
Wall Street Journal

The audacity of this woman to assume she could speak for Paul Wellstone just astounds me. :mad: :(

GOP demands equal time; Wellstone aide apologizes; Ventura upset (www.startribune.com/1752/story/45779.html)
Minnesota Star Tribune

Debate about the nature of the event dominated Minnesota radio shows and TV news, and national political commentator Rush Limbaugh devoted his entire three-hour radio show to the discussion. News outlets and the state political parties were inundated with calls and e-mails expressing disgust or support.

As the "boo!" turns: When it was Hillary Clinton getting booed, Rush, Drudge and friends cheered along (http://www.salon.com/politics/conason/2002/10/31/bush/print.html)
Salon.com

[LyLMyssChaos]

Here is an interesting article that I found in the LA Times that talks about how some people were unhappy with the choice of location for the funeral:

Coretta Scott King's funeral will not be held at the historic, inner-city church where her husband preached, but at a suburban mega-church headed by a controversial pastor who subscribes to the "prosperity gospel" — the belief that the godly will be rewarded with earthly riches.

The New Birth Missionary Baptist Church, which seats 10,000, is well-suited to host today's service. The long list of mourners expected includes President Bush, former President Clinton, Stevie Wonder and Maya Angelou.

But some here are concerned that the message of New Birth's pastor, Bishop Eddie L. Long, does not mesh well with the precepts of the late Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., who was a champion for poor and disenfranchised blacks.


The rest of the story can be found here (http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-na-legacy7feb07,0,6599930.story?coll=la-news-a_section).

[dionysia]

I think the seating capacity had more to do with the choice of location than anything.

Di

[lawyerlee]

The Kings' youngest daughter, Bernice, is also a co-pastor at that church.

[LyLMyssChaos]

I think the seating capacity had more to do with the choice of location than anything.

Di

Oh, I do as well, I just was surprised that people were getting so upset over the location of the funeral.

[batgirl]

...but I will comment and say that to tell someone to turn off Fox and to read Al Franken, is just having someone go from being conservative biased to liberal biased.


So you finally admit that Fox has a conservative bias...

[PG-rated]

Oh I understand, and from what I understand, Delta herself watched the memorial service on TV and is just speaking her opinion on what she witnessed. I don't see how other posters are jumping all over her for expressing her opinion of what she witnessed at that particular "event."
One of the things Al Franken specifically addresses is WHY people who watched the funeral on TV came away with a different impression than people who were there. He really contextualizes it, which is why his account is so important.

[LyLMyssChaos]

So you finally admit that Fox has a conservative bias...

Oh, I have never denied it. Fox is to conservatives what CNN is to liberals. I don't know a single liberal that would willingly watch Fox, and for the most part, the conservatives that I know would rather have their legs broken then have to watch CNN. I believe that EVERYTHING in today's media has a bias one way or the other. I think that in the current political climate that it is darn near impossible to not have a slant to one viewpoint or another.

[batgirl]

Rush simply talks out his ass.

Here's the play-by-play commentary from Limbaugh as Bill Clinton spoke at King's funeral:

Limbaugh: I'm looking at something I haven't seen in I don't know how long. Bill and Hillary are at the pulpit side by side, and she is looking so lovingly and respectfully at him that I don't believe it. The last time I saw them side by side was in that picture when they were on the beach dancing to no music two weeks before the Monica Lewinsky story broke ... Let's bring up the president -- I'm going to regret this; I know I'm going to regret this -- the first black president at the Coretta Scott King funeral.

Clinton: President Bush 41 complained that he was at a disadvantage because he was an Episcopalian. Then he came up here and zings old Laura like he did. I thought, "That ain't bad for one of the 'frozen chosen.'"

Limbaugh: Frozen chosen?

Clinton: We --

Limbaugh: Maybe it's a sperm bank. That's a sperm bank term!

Clinton: -- doing good together and --

Limbaugh: Frozen chosen?

Clinton: Let me say --

Limbaugh: Clinton used to be a greeter in a sperm bank, I know that.

Clinton: -- I don't want us to forget that there's a woman in there, not a symbol. Not a symbol, a real woman who lived and breathed and got angry and got hurt, and had dreams and disappointments --

Limbaugh: I hate to say this, folks, but that's what he said about the mummy.

Clinton: -- and I don't want us to forget that. You know what?

Limbaugh: He said that about the mummy!

Clinton: You know what I was here thinking? "I wish I knew what her kids were thinking about now. I wonder if they were thinking about what I was thinking about my mother's funeral."

Limbaugh: It's about him.

Clinton: All this grand stuff. I wonder if they're thinking about when she used to read books to them, or when she told them Bible stories, or what she said to them when their daddy got killed. We're here to honor a person. Fifty-four years ago her about-to-be husband said that he was looking for a woman with character, intelligence, personality and beauty, and she sure fit the bill, and I (cheers) I have to say, when she was over 75, I thought she still fit the bill pretty good, in all those categories.

Limbaugh: He said that about the mummy, the 500-year-old mummy --

Clinton: I think that's important.

Limbaugh: -- as visions of AstroTurf danced through his head.

Clinton: The day after her husband was killed she had to decide, "What am I going to do with the rest of my life?" We would have all forgiven her, even honored her, if she said, "I have stumbled on enough stony roads. I have been beaten by enough bitter rods. I have endured enough dangers, toils and snares. I'm going home and raise my kids. I wish you all well." None of us, nobody could have condemned that decision, but instead, she went to Memphis, the scene of the worst nightmare of her life, and led that march for those poor, hardworking garbage workers.

Limbaugh: They're called "sanitation workers" now.


No wonder he has no idea what's going on... all he does is talk, never observe...

[msnicolea]

CNN is NOT the liberal equivalent of Fox News. That is ridiculous. Now Air America would be a fair comparison.

[batgirl]

And again, for those who are getting so upset about my comments about Wellstone's memorial - those were my impressions about what happened (as I was watching it) as well as many, many others. I understand you didn't see it the same way I did. But I didn't know I had to be a Wellstone supporter to have an opinion on what I saw.

Actually, you said that you "changed the channel". Are you now saying that you watched it or did you really get your info from Rush or Fox???

Propaganda? I watched the thing on TV and had to change the channel I was so embarrassed for them...

It's post #34 btw.

[Delta]

I have to say I'm...amused? annoyed? weirded out?....that people seem to think I can't form opinions on my own and have to get them from Rush (who I never listen to) or Peggy Noonan (who wrote an article after the even occured) or Fox (which I rarely watch due to its sensationalism, except for Brit Hume sometimes, or on election nights) or get paid by the RNC?

And then it was even more amusing to be accused of these transgressions and then referred to...Al Franken? I am sure it was different for those who were there, as I have said before. But it seemed it was bad enough in person that Kerry felt the need to apologize to Lott afterwards.
the conservatives that I know would rather have their legs broken then have to watch CNN.Actually, my TV is on CNN right now, and that is where it usually is, unless for the above reasons wrt Fox, or if Chris Matthews is on MSNBC. :)

Batgirl - I think I switched away for a few seconds at the more uncomfortable moments. I tend to do that with The Bachelor too. ;)

[Graffy]

They bash and bash and bash and bash and bash the Clintons non-stop, yet get all huffy if anyone dares say a peep about our oh so lovely current president who has a brain the size of a pea or if anyone dares say anything against the war.

I don't know. Personally, I wouldn't expect members of his own party to bash the president. Most republicans support the president that they voted for, even if they don't agree with everything he does, just as most democratics who voted for Clinton supported him. It seems logical to me.

The problem that this thread seems to have is that those who support what happened at CSK's funeral expect everyone else to do likewise. Delta continues to reiterate that her comments are based on her impressions of what she saw. And whether the rest of you like it or not, your comments are based on your impressions as well. If you stand on different ends of the political spectrum it makes perfect sense that your impressions would different. And I think it's quite unfair to say that her impressions of Sen. Wellstone's funeral shouldn't be shared just because she wasn't there. There was certainly enough coverage of it. If we're not allowed to share our impressions of what happened somewhere because we weren't physically present, then why is this thread here at all? I doubt any of us were esteemed guests at CSK's funeral.

This thread is an excellent example of what happens on CC in general when posts get political. Rather than a debate and the free exchange of ideas, if someone says something that doesn't agree with the majority (which I think most of you will agree leans toward the left on CC, at least those who post in political forums) they are swiftly and soundly ganged up on. I don't typically post in these forums because who likes to be bullied? And it's my impression that that's what is typically happening. And telling conservatives that we should read Al Franken, listen to NPR and watch CNN while constantly berating Fox News...it's very hard for me to understand why you can't see that this is very much a case of the pot calling the kettle black. If we need to get our information from liberal (because from a conservative standpoint that's what they are) media sources in order to have a balanced view, then the obvious turn around on that is that y'all should be watching Fox News and reading the Weekly Standard. As balanced as you all appear to yourselves, please try to understand that those of us on the other end don't see you that way.

I think this community is very diverse and interesting, and we have a lot to learn from each other, but it's so very off-putting to take one look at the title of a thread and know exactly how it's going to end up if anyone shares a dissenting POV.

In another thread the scenario was brought up that if things continue like they have been, pretty soon those on the right will either leave CC or put bullying posters on ignore, and then those on the left will be able to pat each other on the back and "heart" each other all they want. And they'll be left with a pretty milquetoast environment with no dissenting opinions whatsoever. Maybe that's what y'all would like...but I think you'd miss us. ;)

What I've just written is probably totally irrelevant to what's going on in the rest of the thread now since it's taken me a good 45 minutes to write it.:o

[wendalah]

the conservatives that I know would rather have their legs broken then have to watch CNN.

How did I miss this one? Man, I feel sorry for the conservatives that work at Fox. Not being able to watch their competition must really freakin' bug them....owwwww!

Seriously. I am a Republican so I can't really take Delta's side without everyone throwing rotten tomatoes at me, but I get her point. Moderates who see this sort of stuff (political digs at funerals) are going to be turned off regardless of what party is doing the digging. I'm pretty moderate and I thought it was lame.

[Delta]

Graffy - What you wrote was great.

In another thread the scenario was brought up that if things continue like they have been, pretty soon those on the right will either leave CC or put bullying posters on ignore, and then those on the left will be able to pat each other on the back and "heart" each other all they want. And they'll be left with a pretty milquetoast environment with no dissenting opinions whatsoever. Maybe that's what y'all would like...but I think you'd miss us. ;)

You don't understand how many times I have thrown up my hands and said never again...but I just. keep.coming. back. Aaaaghh. So, I really only have myself to blame. ;)

[artist]

No wonder he [Rush] has no idea what's going on... all he does is talk, never observe...

Exactly. Thanks for posting that by the way!

[Delta]

Wait? When did this become a Rush-bashing thread?

Or are we trying to change the subject again?

Interesting perspective from [BIAS WARNING]The Weekly Standard (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Utilities/printer_preview.asp?idArticle=3312&R=C42D169C3)[/BIAS WARNING] that quotes Tom Daschle's perspective:

At one point, Chris [Dodd], [North Dakota Democrat] Byron [Dorgan] and I were sitting together, talking about how anyone who knew Paul or his politics would understand and appreciate how his spirit was reflected in that evening's enthusiasm. But we knew how many people did not know Paul and did not share his politics, and we agreed that among those people--millions of them across America--we were going to pay a price for what had just happened.

"We may just have lost the Minnesota Senate race," Chris said.

"That may not be all," Byron replied.I remember talking to Fritz Mondale in the afternoon the following day. He, too, was shocked at the rapid turn of events. He had already personally experienced the vitriol among many Minnesotans that morning.Not only did Walter Mondale slip overnight from eight points up to ten points down. . . . In South Dakota, where [incumbent Democratic senator] Tim Johnson's people were going door-to-door all over the state, reports were coming back that more than a few South Dakotans were saying, "I am so outraged at what happened in Minnesota that I was going to vote for Tim, but now I'm going to vote Republican."

[msnicolea]

Well, the INITIAL thread was about the CSK funeral and yet you, Delta, changed it into the Paul Wellstone thread (see post #6), so please stop accusing other people of "changing the subject."

[Delta]

http://www.booknotes.org/Transcript/?ProgramID=1756

LAMB: Another story you tell about Trent Lott is the Paul Wellstone memorial service.


DASCHLE: Well, Trent was -- I thought was a real class act during that. This was a tough time for Trent. This was a -- as everyone can recall, it was, I don`t know, 20,000 people packed in a big sports arena in Minneapolis. And as we all walked in, we were cheered as Democrats. Well, Trent walked in, he and his wife, Tricia (ph). They had flown all the way from Mississippi. And they were booed. And right at the moment, I said, I`m sorry about that. And he said, That`s -- I understand. That`s no big deal. And he had to leave early because his -- because of some flight problems that they were having, and so he left. And I -- but right before he left, he assured me that he wasn`t leaving because of the fact that he was not received well.


And so I think it was the next day, I called him and I said, Trent, I again want to apologize for your reception. That booing didn`t reflect well on those who were there or on those of us who work with you. And so I wanted him to know that, and he accepted that, and we`ve talked about it on occasions since then.


LAMB: But you said Jesse Ventura left. He was mad.


DASCHLE: He was.


LAMB: But then you said the ripple across the country was a negative to the election. Norm Coleman was elected. Can things that simple, that one event, cause that much trouble across the country that quickly?


DASCHLE: Brian, I think, in the long term, probably no. But in the short term -- keep in mind this was just a few days before the election. The viewership was phenomenal. We were surprised at how many -- how many viewers there were. I`ve forgotten now the number, but it was incredible.


Almost that night, the calls started. In fact, Chris Dodd was talking to his wife, and she thought that maybe there was a rally before the memorial service and she had seen the rally, not the memorial service. And I think that that was it. A lot of people were expecting something else. They saw that. They were taken aback by it and I think reacted very, very negatively.


I remember going door to door with Tim Johnson a couple days after that in South Dakota. Several people would not -- actually would refuse to talk to us at the door because of the reception people got at the service and the way it was all handled. So there was a palpable negative reaction that I think spilled over to the election itself.

[Delta]

True, true, msnicolea.

I'll go back to the CSK topic then.

[chrisinluv]

Delta, I guess you can't produce a quote. Saying someone "alludes" to something when you have no idea what you are talking about just isn't good enough to support your statement.

...Or if people thought the best way to honor Wellstone at his memorial was to boo the Republicans in attendance then they can do that too. But it certainly doesn't help their cause. ::shrug::

Oh, like Trent Lott's racist remarks at Strom Thurmond's 100th birthday party? That didn't hurt the republicans any.


ETA: Sorry ladies. I had already started a reply before msnicolea suggested we stay on topic, and did not see it until after posting. I'll let it drop.

[artist]

CNN is NOT the liberal equivalent of Fox News. That is ridiculous. Now Air America would be a fair comparison.

Exactly. I actually much prefer CSpan. CNN seems "moderate" at best. Sometimes it seems conservative. What I love about CSpan though is that they just let the cameras roll WITHOUT commentary. They also let viewers call into their comment line. They seem to try anyway to allow viewers on both ends of the spectrum voice their opinions. I find that refreshing. If they are airing for example The State of the Union Address, before it starts, it's just the camera rolling. The fact that there is no commentary almost makes it boring at times. But I like that. They seem to allow people to come to their own conclusions.


And telling conservatives that we should read Al Franken, listen to NPR and watch CNN while constantly berating Fox News...it's very hard for me to understand why you can't see that this is very much a case of the pot calling the kettle black. If we need to get our information from liberal (because from a conservative standpoint that's what they are) media sources in order to have a balanced view, then the obvious turn around on that is that y'all should be watching Fox News and reading the Weekly Standard. As balanced as you all appear to yourselves, please try to understand that those of us on the other end don't see you that way.

Actually, I have listened to about three years of Rush Limbaugh. I have actually looked at or observed "news" sources from the other side. Apparently you didn't read my post too carefully because I said that I think it's important for people to try to get their news from a VARIETY of sources. That sometimes means getting information from sources you disagree with. If anything, to try to understand where the other side is coming from. I think liberals need to do that just as much as conservatives do. That's why I challenged people to read chapter 25 of the Franken book. Maybe it's in your public library so that you don't have to pay for it.

[msnicolea]

I'm actually fine with topics getting changed--that's what happens in these threads, comments yield other comments/examples and what started of as a topic about Spam is now a thread about Nutella. I have no problem with the Wellstone issue being raised here--it seems relevant to the discussion, even though I don't agree with your "take." In the same vein, I think talk about Limbaugh is also appropriate, as people keep citing him as an example of someone who was "outraged" over the events at the Wellstone memorial service.

[Delta]

Delta, I guess you can't produce a quote. Saying someone "alludes" to something when you have no idea what you are talking about just isn't good enough to support your statement.



Oh, like Trent Lott's racist remarks at Strom Thurmond's 100th birthday party? That didn't hurt the republicans any.Sure it did. And,really, that was one instance where Karl Rove really messed up. He (and other Republicans) really wanted Lott out and Frist to replace him even before that. (Frist was Rove's early pick for 2008.) So, they blew up the brouhaha into a huge deal and kicked Lott out and put Frist in. That was a mistake as I think most Reps can agree that Frist is ineffectual. Lott was not being racist, but he did make a political blunder there.

[lawyerlee]

How did I miss this one? Man, I feel sorry for the conservatives that work at Fox. Not being able to watch their competition must really freakin' bug them....owwwww!

Seriously. I am a Republican so I can't really take Delta's side without everyone throwing rotten tomatoes at me, but I get her point. Moderates who see this sort of stuff (political digs at funerals) are going to be turned off regardless of what party is doing the digging. I'm pretty moderate and I thought it was lame.
No rotten tomatoes here. ;) :)

[artist]

If only people actually knew how few people actually booed! Compare the boo sounds (and how loud it was...how many people) to the cheer sounds when Clinton arrived (again, how loud it was...how many people) and you might grasp what I am talking about. Though, if you only watched a snippet of this service, (trust me, it was LONG and it honored not just Paul, but all of those who were killed in that plane, again, something you wouldn't know if you weren't actually there) you would not understand that. The details of what I am talking about are in the Al Fanken book. I would type parts of the book myself, but I passed it along to a friend and so I no longer own it.

[Delta]

And I really don't know how to explain it to you any clearer than what I already have here WRT Carter's comments.

[msnicolea]

Lott was not being racist, but he did make a political blunder there.

I don't understand how you can say he wasn't being racist! He said the nation might have been better off if Thurmond had been elected president in 1948; at that time, Thurmond was running on a segregationist platform.

Here is what Thurmond said at the time:

"All the laws of Washington and all the bayonets of the Army cannot force the Negro into our homes, our schools, our churches." Was HE being racist or just "misunderstood"?

[lawyerlee]

I don't understand how you can say he wasn't being racist! He said the nation might have been better off if Thurmond had been elected president in 1948; at that time, Thurmond was running on a segregationist platform.
And I love how it's a fact, not an opinion. As though we have no idea what we're talking about. :rolleyes:

[artist]

All of us in attendance of the memorial service were waiting in lines that were many blocks long. There were people who had to sit in overflow rooms. I assure you, it was really not too many people who actually booed.

Also, I believe one of the articles that came out proclaimed that there were t.v. monitors alerting people WHEN to boo or cheear. Actually, that is a lie. The words "boo" or "cheer" were on the monitors so the hearing impaired people knew what was going on. Just like every word of every speaker was on those same monitors.

[pocket]

I would definitely want people to talk about my political beliefs at my funeral. It’s a huge part of my identity, and it would be weird not to mention it. CSK was, after all, NOT a Bush voter. He struck out against affirmative action on MLK day his first year in office! His second year in office he It wasn’t a coincidence. And then people wonder what AA’s could possibly have against him. I attended church with my ex who was an AA minister a few times a month. He didn’t give a political sermon once, and he worked on the Hill. That’s a stunningly ignorant and moderately racist thing to say.

Franken may not be neutral, but his version of what happened at Wellstone’s funeral checks out. Believe it or not, the funeral which lasted hours and hours, had only a small percentage of anti-conservative backlash about it. One of the longer eulogies by one of his personal friends, and some minor booing when Lott walked in. Mostly it was about the man and his passion, not about scoring political points. It was really smeared by right wing pundits to the extent that their version became the official version. It is challenging for me to believe that conservative posters actually had their TV’s tuned to CSPAN during the entire funeral. What inspired that? A love of Wellstone? The 700 Club wasn’t coming in? I will bet money that most of those who are commenting on it saw the coverage on the network news which portrayed it in a very inaccurate way. And if you get your news from Limbaugh, you are by definition uninformed. That guy’s a crackhead.

[artist]

Again, I ask to those of you claiming to have seen the Wellstone Memorial on t.v., did you really watch the WHOLE DAMN THING? As in, the honoring of ALL the people who died on that plane? I recall being in that auditorium for perhaps 4 hours or so.

[maxandmolly]

I don't understand how you can say he wasn't being racist! He said the nation might have been better off if Thurmond had been elected president in 1948; at that time, Thurmond was running on a segregationist platform.

Here is what Thurmond said at the time:

"All the laws of Washington and all the bayonets of the Army cannot force the Negro into our homes, our schools, our churches." Was HE being racist or just "misunderstood"?
Now, here's my question: When he ran on that platform, was it before or after he fathered a daughter with a black woman?

[chrisinluv]

Now, here's my question: When he ran on that platform, was it before or after he fathered a daughter with a black woman?


Shhhhhhhh! That's supposed to be a secret! :rolleyes:

[msnicolea]

Now, here's my question: When he ran on that platform, was it before or after he fathered a daughter with a black woman?

His daughter was born in 1925--so AFTER.

[chrisinluv]

I don't understand how you can say he wasn't being racist! He said the nation might have been better off if Thurmond had been elected president in 1948; at that time, Thurmond was running on a segregationist platform.

Here is what Thurmond said at the time:

"All the laws of Washington and all the bayonets of the Army cannot force the Negro into our homes, our schools, our churches." Was HE being racist or just "misunderstood"?


He clearly "alluded" to something.

[lawyerlee]

Oh, and I find it hilarious that people like Trent Lott or some conservative posters on this message board will say racist stuff, but a certain someone doesn't seem embarrassed by that. For some reason, she's fixated on being embarrassed for Paul Wellstone that his funeral was "political".

[artist]

Oh, and I find it hilarious that people like Trent Lott or some conservative posters on this message board will say racist stuff, but a certain someone doesn't seem embarrassed by that. For some reason, she's fixated on being embarrassed for Paul Wellstone that his funeral was "political".

Great point! I also just love how people are embarassed for my Senator too! Like they know anything about him! (ie: being the one guy to oppose the war before it started even if it meant political suicide.)

[artist]

A lot of Minnesotans who loved Wellstone kept their Wellstone signs up for a long time. I think there might still be a few up here and there. Some Republicans were critisizing people for that. I think it's pretty insensitive for people to critisize how others grieve. And yes, we all were grieving the loss of Wellstone. Many of us still are.

[maxandmolly]

So he was still campaigning for segregation while secretly supporting his mixed race child. Ah, hypocrite, thy name is Strom Thurmond. Must make all Republicans proud to claim him, no?

[mgrace]

But it seemed it was bad enough in person that Kerry felt the need to apologize to Lott afterwards.

Eh. Maybe it has something to do with Kerry being a yes man. (Was Kerry there? I don't remember)

Again, I ask to those of you claiming to have seen the Wellstone Memorial on t.v., did you really watch the WHOLE DAMN THING? As in, the honoring of ALL the people who died on that plane?
Good point, artist. The media acts like it was a 4 hour "rally".

[Delta]

I don't understand how you can say he wasn't being racist! He said the nation might have been better off if Thurmond had been elected president in 1948; at that time, Thurmond was running on a segregationist platform.

Here is what Thurmond said at the time:

"All the laws of Washington and all the bayonets of the Army cannot force the Negro into our homes, our schools, our churches." Was HE being racist or just "misunderstood"?
I think Lott was kissing Thurmond's behind on his birthday and trying to make an old man feel good. Unfortunately, he didn't think it through as to what Thurmond's platform was at the time. I'm pretty sure Lott does not believe that the nation would be better off under segregation.

[msnicolea]

I give Trent Lott a little more credit than you do-I think he knew exactly what he was saying.

[PG-rated]

And telling conservatives that we should read Al Franken, listen to NPR and watch CNN while constantly berating Fox News...it's very hard for me to understand why you can't see that this is very much a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
OK, once again...the reason we're recommending Al Franken's account of the funeral is NOT because he's liberal, but because he was there and he's a good writer. Yes, the essay appears in a book that's otherwise extremely partisan, but I thought it was a very touching account of the funeral and how the experience of it differed from how it played on TV, and the subsequent reporting on it. If Rupert Murdoch was there and wrote a thoughtful essay about the experience, I would read that, too.

[Delta]

It is challenging for me to believe that conservative posters actually had their TV’s tuned to CSPAN during the entire funeral. What inspired that? A love of Wellstone? The 700 Club wasn’t coming in? I will bet money that most of those who are commenting on it saw the coverage on the network news which portrayed it in a very inaccurate way. And if you get your news from Limbaugh, you are by definition uninformed. That guy’s a crackhead.
I find the continued mistaken presumptions here about what I watch and where I get my news to be just...annoying at the least. I had a TV in my office in DC at the time and it was on the service much of that day. We had just returned from Europe a few days before - we were there when the news about Wellstone broke and watched about it on CNN international. That's how I remember all of this. I specifically recall the funeral and the coverage because it was just bizarre, and the news coverage of it started before it was even over, I think. I am a political junkie. Any live political-related event I tend to tune into. Some probably consider that a flaw.



Oh, and I find it hilarious that people like Trent Lott or some conservative posters on this message board will say racist stuff, but a certain someone doesn't seem embarrassed by that. For some reason, she's fixated on being embarrassed for Paul Wellstone that his funeral was "political".I never said I was embarrassed for Paul Wellstone, but rather some of the people at his funeral (like, the booers), and also for his son who got so carried away. I know what he was saying was heartfelt, but the way it was coming across was just over the top.

[Delta]

I give Trent Lott a little more credit than you do-I think he knew exactly what he was saying.
You honestly think Trent Lott thinks the nation would be better off under segregation???

[mamahammer]

As a Dem, a fan of Franken's writings and a fond observer of the CSK funeral, I have to say I agree with Gaffy's points.

There is no point served by throwing partisan insults from either side. And I think the extreme left and right only serve to throw the majority of Americans (those closer to the center than the ends of the spectrum) totally out of politics. Want to know why voter turnout is low? Why so few good people want to run for political office? /it's because of the severe black-and-white political, partisan debates you see here on CC. It's because most Americans can't relate to either extreme.

[dionysia]

Want to know why voter turnout is low? Why so few good people want to run for political office? it's because of the severe black-and-white political, partisan debates you see here on CC. It's because most Americans can't relate to either extreme.I think you give all of us too much credit. I wish my CC posts could change people's votes.

And I personally don't think that most posters here on both sides hold extreme views.

Di

[lawyerlee]

I think you give all of us too much credit. I wish my CC posts could change people's votes.

And I personally don't think that most posters here on both sides hold extreme views.

Di
Speak for yourself, Di. I *know* all my grandstanding and blabbing makes a huge difference in how people vote! ;)

[wine_o_girlie]

There is no point served by throwing partisan insults from either side. And I think the extreme left and right only serve to throw the majority of Americans (those closer to the center than the ends of the spectrum) totally out of politics. Want to know why voter turnout is low? Why so few good people want to run for political office? /it's because of the severe black-and-white political, partisan debates you see here on CC. It's because most Americans can't relate to either extreme.

I completely disagree this is why people don't vote. IMO, people don't vote because they don't want to spend even 2 minutes learning about the issues at hand and finding a candidate that lines up with their positions (if one even exists). People don't want to watch the news, read the newspapers, listen to the radio and learn about things that are happening in this country and in other countries. I think a ton of people believe that things that happen with "the government" have nothing to do with their daily lives and they just.don't.care. It's extremely sad the level of apathy in this country. It's disgusting to me that seemingly well-educated people want nothing to do with being "well-informed" and have somehow convinced themselves that either a) they don't need to vote because really, it doesn't affect their day-to-day lives or b) it's a pain in the ass to go vote and they just don't feel like it.

[dionysia]

Speak for yourself, Di. I *know* all my grandstanding and blabbing makes a huge difference in how people vote! ;)Megalomaniac! :p

Wine_o_girlie: I think you've hit the nail on the head. Americans are intellectually lazy, imnsho. If an issue doesn't directly affect them (or they don't think that it does), they don't care.

Di

[wine_o_girlie]

BTW, I'll say it - yes, I do think Trent Lott is a racist. Yes, I do think he is also a sexist and a class-ist. However, I do not think these qualities are in any way limited to Trent Lott or the Republican party. There are plenty of racists, sexists, and classists in the Democratic party also.

[bookworm]

This is a few posts back by now, but I actually agree with Delta. I think Lott was just pandering to an old guy on his birthday.

ETA: Hey, it's no longer a few posts back! I have no opinion on whether Lott is racist or classist--I just don't think this particular comment was intended in that vein.

[pocket]

no one here is extremely left or extremely right wing. we are mostly moderates in here.

[Delta]

Actually, I beg to differ. I think there are people here who tend towards the more extreme, on both sides.

[artist]

As a Dem, a fan of Franken's writings and a fond observer of the CSK funeral, I have to say I agree with Gaffy's points.

There is no point served by throwing partisan insults from either side. And I think the extreme left and right only serve to throw the majority of Americans (those closer to the center than the ends of the spectrum) totally out of politics. Want to know why voter turnout is low? Why so few good people want to run for political office? /it's because of the severe black-and-white political, partisan debates you see here on CC. It's because most Americans can't relate to either extreme.


:D

I wish! Not that this website doesn't have a lot of members, but in the grand scheme of things, I think we're pretty underground. (I like to think we are anyway!)

As PG-Rated said:
OK, once again...the reason we're recommending Al Franken's account of the funeral is NOT because he's liberal, but because he was there and he's a good writer. Yes, the essay appears in a book that's otherwise extremely partisan, but I thought it was a very touching account of the funeral and how the experience of it differed from how it played on TV, and the subsequent reporting on it. If Rupert Murdoch was there and wrote a thoughtful essay about the experience, I would read that, too.

All I ask of you is that someday you go check the book out at a library (so you don't have to spend money on it) and read chapter 25. Think about it.

And Delta,
I have no idea what your news and information sources are. That is why I asked for example if you (or anyone) actually watched the memorial service in its entirety. As in, the whole darn thing not interrupted by a bunch of biased (one way or the other) commentators. If you did, I am guessing maybe you saw it on CSpan. I realize not everyone has access to CSpan which is too bad, but since you claim to have been tuned into CNN at the time, it sounds like you at least had access to cable stations at that time.

I did not watch it on t.v. because I was there in person. It would have been silly to go home and watch it again on CSpan. But I certainly did have to see all the distortion of the event in the media later. I wsa not a bit offended or embarassed by the service. I thought much of it was beautifully done. I was pretty insulted though by the Republicans on the other hand who DID use Wellstone's death as a political strategy by going on and on about how "embarassed" they were by it. What bull! Couldn't they have just kept their mouths shut?

And since so many of you seem to be experts on that election, please be aware that one major reason Coleman won that race was that Mondale had about 5 days to campaign and unfortunately there were a lot of voters not familiar with his name! (As in younger voters perhaps.)

[artist]

no one here is extremely left or extremely right wing. we are mostly moderates in here.

I am fairly liberal. Though I am a Democrat and not a Green, so I guess in some ways that makes me moderate. (At least compared to some people I know.)

[Delta]

For the 85th time, I don't deny that Al Franken and you, artist, and many others there didn't see a political rally going on and were very touched and felt the memorial honored his memory very well.

Nontheless, there was chanting and cheering and booing going on in parts of it. It took many people aback - both there, and on live TV, and those watching the coverage afterwards on any news station. There was no propaganda or lies or revisionist history going on there, no matter how much you want to blame 'Republican lies.' It happened, and there was a backlash. That was my point.

And if you think things like that, and the words spoken about President Bush at CSK's funeral were just thoughtful tributes to the departed, well then so be it. But to more moderate people, it usually comes across as...not good.

And artist, it was on CSpan. I think most everyone has access to that if they have cable. I most certainly did as I was in a government office.

As an aside, my college roomate was one of the 14 researchers who helped Al Franken with his research on that book.

[mamahammer]

Heh. Didn't actually mean that these very conversations right here on CC were the reason people don't vote. Just that these types of black-and-white debates - such as those found here on CC - are, IMO, a big part of the political apathy and low voter involvement.

[mamahammer]

If one isn't supposed to comment on an event unless they were there in person, then how are we to ever have conversations about current events? Much less historical events? I think Delta has more than explained her position. And has said over and over that she realizes that others from different political perusasions might have seen things differently. But isn't part of this political game about making sure we come across the way we see ourselves? I tend to see myself as a moderate-to-liberal Christian with a good heart. But if other people view me as a hardline progressive with aetheist leanings, I need to re-evaluate my presented image. Because my image isn't accurately portraying who I am. The same could be said for the CSK and Wellstone memorials. To those in the know about their lives and political aspirations, the memorials might be exactly on target and perfectly executed. But if what the world-at-large saw was pandering, snide remarks and the advantageous use of a person's funeral for political gain - then I think it's beneficial to note that and step back in an evaluation of how we want to be viewed by the majority of the country.

[artist]

For the 85th time, I don't deny that Al Franken and you, artist, and many others there didn't see a political rally going on and were very touched and felt the memorial honored his memory very well.

Nontheless, there was chanting and cheering and booing going on in parts of it. It took many people aback - both there, and on live TV, and those watching the coverage afterwards on any news station. There was no propaganda or lies or revisionist history going on there, no matter how much you want to blame 'Republican lies.' It happened, and there was a backlash. That was my point.

I am blaming the distortion of the media, in particular some conservative pundits and talking heads. You write your post as if it is absolute fact rather then simply your opinion. And I still disagree with you. Do you not think the media often distorts things and blows them out of proportion?


And if you think things like that, and the words spoken about President Bush at CSK's funeral were just thoughtful tributes to the departed, well then so be it. But to more moderate people, it usually comes across as...not good.

And artist, it was on CSpan. I think most everyone has access to that if they have cable. I most certainly did as I was in a government office.

Maybe you did see CSpan, and sorry to get nitpicky here, but didn't you say you saw it on CNN? Maybe to you the two are similar. To me they are fairly different. I don't typically see commentators on CSpan. I find CNN to be annoying to watch with all the words and graphics racing across the screen.



As an aside, my college roomate was one of the 14 researchers who helped Al Franken with his research on that book.

That is quite interesting! I would be curious to know what your college roommate's opinion on this one would be.

[pocket]

The portrayal of the Wellstone funeral in the media was a gross and infuriating distortion of the actual events and their tone. In fact, it was one of the most egregious distortions among many. It’s true that the liberals have a crap media machine. I think there’s a bit of victim-blaming going on here, but at the same time it’s true that in this day and age one needs to control the message. Spin or be spun, as it were.

[artist]

If one isn't supposed to comment on an event unless they were there in person, then how are we to ever have conversations about current events? Much less historical events? I think Delta has more than explained her position. And has said over and over that she realizes that others from different political perusasions might have seen things differently. But isn't part of this political game about making sure we come across the way we see ourselves? I tend to see myself as a moderate-to-liberal Christian with a good heart. But if other people view me as a hardline progressive with aetheist leanings, I need to re-evaluate my presented image. Because my image isn't accurately portraying who I am. The same could be said for the CSK and Wellstone memorials. To those in the know about their lives and political aspirations, the memorials might be exactly on target and perfectly executed. But if what the world-at-large saw was pandering, snide remarks and the advantageous use of a person's funeral for political gain - then I think it's beneficial to note that and step back in an evaluation of how we want to be viewed by the majority of the country.

I realize not everyone was there, but am I not supposed to comment on what I see as a big huge distortion of what actually happened?

Also, maybe Delta and probably most of you on this board were not there in person, however I tend to take a news source way more seriously if the person telling the news was there in person. I would think someone who survived Hurricane Katrina would have a much more accurate description of what actually happened there then a reporter who never even bothered to visit after the hurricane hit. I do think many of these right-wing-media-talking-heads do that a lot. They see some snippet of something and take it and run with it. Then they get all their fans to see it that way too, when often in reality their interpretation is way off.

[lawyerlee]

Nontheless, there was chanting and cheering and booing going on in parts of it. It took many people aback - both there, and on live TV, and those watching the coverage afterwards on any news station. There was no propaganda or lies or revisionist history going on there, no matter how much you want to blame 'Republican lies.' It happened, and there was a backlash. That was my point.
It is merely your opinion that there was a backlash anywhere outside the right wing machine. Just because you perceive something to be the truth doesn't make it so. Your arrogance in trying to shove your opinion down our throats is so freaking tired.

[PG-rated]

The same could be said for the CSK and Wellstone memorials. To those in the know about their lives and political aspirations, the memorials might be exactly on target and perfectly executed. But if what the world-at-large saw was pandering, snide remarks and the advantageous use of a person's funeral for political gain - then I think it's beneficial to note that and step back in an evaluation of how we want to be viewed by the majority of the country.
I accept and understand that both events created a political backlash (although I think the extent of the backlash is probably different from what you think). We can agree to disagree about whether the way the events were reported contributed to that backlash. But that still doesn't change the fact that it's a freaking funeral, and as long as it was in keeping with the life and sentiments of the person being honored, who cares what the political fallout is? For Wellstone's funeral not to mention his passion and drive, and the need for others to take up his cause, would've been a tragedy. Same with CSK - why is it wrong for people to continue to say the things she's said her whole life? I don't see that as political grandstanding, but rather honoring the person's life. And if people want to call that pandering, then screw 'em. If it costs one party or the other votes, then it's a loss I personally am willing to live with.

[pocket]

i think the days when liberals talking about their politics at a funeral could even cause a backlash are over. blood, meet my good friend water.

[mamahammer]

The portrayal of the Wellstone funeral in the media was a gross and infuriating distortion of the actual events and their tone. In fact, it was one of the most egregious distortions among many. It’s true that the liberals have a crap media machine. I think there’s a bit of victim-blaming going on here, but at the same time it’s true that in this day and age one needs to control the message. Spin or be spun, as it were.

If you mean that there is some semblance of blaming the deceased, I'd disagree but I understand the perception. It's not the fault of those being mourned that some might see their memorials as propoganda machines for either side (that the Dems might use the time to speak about their own political issues, or that the Repubs might seize the opportunity to say, "How dare the immoral Dems use a somber service to further their cause!"). Not their fault at all.

But if you're saying that the politicians who spoke at these services are the victims, I'd wholeheartedly disagree. There isn't a politician on the national scene who isn't aware of the ramifications of their actions and the perception of their words by the general public. Goes for all sides of the political forum. You don't make it to a place of public awareness without knowing the power (for both good and bad) of the media.

[mamahammer]

i think the days when liberals talking about their politics at a funeral could even cause a backlash are over. blood, meet my good friend water.

:confused:

[pocket]

blood is in the water. like the sharks come around when the blood is in the water, and they eat you and once they smell the blood there is no turning back.

[LyLMyssChaos]

no one here is extremely left or extremely right wing.

Umm, I'm still here, and I'm "extremely right wing." Or at least that is what I keep getting told. ;)

[mamahammer]

We can agree to disagree about whether the way the events were reported contributed to that backlash. [QUOTE]
No, no. I totally agree that the way things are reported certainly contribute to the perception the general public has of the event. I just think we need to recognize that when we take political stands at otherwise non-political events.

[QUOTE=PG-rated]Same with CSK - why is it wrong for people to continue to say the things she's said her whole life? I don't see that as political grandstanding, but rather honoring the person's life.

I don't know anything about Senator Wellstone, so I won't speak about what should or shouldn't have gone on at his service. My only squeamishness from the CSK service came from the way things were presented. My sense of CSK is that she was a very dignified woman who steered clear of personal attacks and always held her head high. That she was a woman of great character and strength who got her point across through sincerity and humbleness. Not through political pandering and smear. And I think that many of politicians who spoke on her behalf at the funeral (politicians on either side of the aisle) took advantage of the high-profile arena to further their own ideas in a way CSK herself might not have.

[pocket]

i think the ones being distorted are the victims and the perpetrators of distortion are rush and tucker - in the case of the wellstone funeral. but as i said, it's spin or be spun. no sense in sitting around moaning and groaning about how long it took liiberals to understand about being on message and taking control of their own image.

ok, now mamahammer, how can you claim to be moderate/liberal and not know anythign abotu wellstone? he's an icon!

[pocket]

Umm, I'm still here, and I'm "extremely right wing." Or at least that is what I keep getting told. ;)

nah, none of us really are all that extreme. believe me, my husband went through a marxist geographer phase last semester :rolleyes: i know from extreme.

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

I'm quite sure that Jimmy Carter would know what would fly with Corretta Scott King.

As far as what would a moderate would find offensive...
I'm not too worried about moderates being turned off of the Democratic party, and running off into the arms of the Republican party, because a former President brought up invasive wiretapping at the funeral of someone who knew firsthand what it was like to be wiretapped.
Considering that the current President has been secretly authorizing warrantless wiretapping, a few comments seem pretty inconsequential.

But hey, that's neither here nor there.

[maxandmolly]

LFPH, you know I love you, and agree with 99.99% of what you have to say. But in the name of whatever you may hold holy, when are you gonna ditch that creepy ass avatar of yours?

[Delta]

It is merely your opinion that there was a backlash anywhere outside the right wing machine. Just because you perceive something to be the truth doesn't make it so. Your arrogance in trying to shove your opinion down our throats is so freaking tired.I know! How dare I have an opinion here. Gosh!

[Delta]

I am blaming the distortion of the media, in particular some conservative pundits and talking heads. You write your post as if it is absolute fact rather then simply your opinion. And I still disagree with you. Do you not think the media often distorts things and blows them out of proportion?

Yes, it does. And the right did make political hay from this. But they weren't making it up. People booed and cheered and chanted just like at a rally. That is a fact. Reading the coverage from the time it was apparent that even some Dems knew it was going to be bad news politically when they walked out of there.

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

Yes, it does. And the right did make political hay from this. But they weren't making it up. People booed and cheered and chanted just like at a rally. That is a fact. Reading the coverage from the time it was apparent that even some Dems knew it was going to be bad news politically when they walked out of there.
Yes, it's true, "people booed and cheered and chanted just like at a rally." But that's not how the right wing pundits reported it. They added in plenty of BS to make it more entertaining.

[Delta]

Sure they did, as I already said in the post you quoted. But to call even the mainstream reporting and personal observations of what happened 'propaganda' and 'lies' is stretching it pretty far. It was pretty obvious what was going on just watching the coverage or the funeral itself. I just don't think CNN is that influenced by Rush or whomever.

If instances of chanting and yelling is what people think honors Wellstone, then I don't see why people have a problem with the coverage of it. That's definitely what is going to get the most press anyway, because it's not what you'd usually expect at a memorial.

Bleh, I am getting tired of saying the same things over and over.

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

Sure they did, as I already said in the post you quoted. But to call even the mainstream reporting and personal observations of what happened 'propaganda' and 'lies' is stretching it pretty far. It was pretty obvious what was going on just watching the coverage or the funeral itself. I just don't think CNN is that influenced by Rush or whomever.
Well, first of all, which are you talking about? Watching it on CSPAN or watching it on CNN, or the reporting on CNN after the fact?
If instances of chanting and yelling is what people think honors Wellstone, then I don't see why people have a problem with the coverage of it. That's definitely what is going to get the most press anyway, because it's not what you'd usually expect at a memorial.

Bleh, I am getting tired of saying the same things over and over.
I have no problem with coverage of "chanting and yelling," although calling it just that has some inherent bias. Was it really just chanting and yelling? Weren't there speeches, and crying, and softspoken words as well?

[mamahammer]

I have no problem with coverage of "chanting and yelling," although calling it just that has some inherent bias. Was it really just chanting and yelling? Weren't there speeches, and crying, and softspoken words as well?

Of course there were tears, crying and softspoken words. Of course! But you can't expect that those are the things that will be reported. You expect tears and sadness at a funeral. And you don't typically report about the expected over the unexpected. I mean, that would be like the media talking about all of the average run of the mill downhill skiers in the competition in Torino - and not talking about the guy who skied naked. Of course you're going to hear more about the guy who skied naked than the competitors who followed the rules. Why? Because it's different, perhaps inappropriate and a heck of a lot more interesting to many.

Not reporting, though, about the softspoken words, crying and tears doesn't mean that the reported chanting and yelling didn't happen. It did. It happened regardless of anything else that might have gone on. And I think it would be in our best interest to admit that the perception of our actions/events is at least as powerful as the reality.

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

Of course there were tears, crying and softspoken words. Of course! But you can't expect that those are the things that will be reported. You expect tears and sadness at a funeral. And you don't typically report about the expected over the unexpected. I mean, that would be like the media talking about all of the average run of the mill downhill skiers in the competition in Torino - and not talking about the guy who skied naked. Of course you're going to hear more about the guy who skied naked than the competitors who