"Faust" for first-graders

[wendalah]

Just saw this...I am amused. I am sure some are going to say the parents are being ridiculous, but come on. What is up with this teacher? Faust is a little heavy for kids this young, and she had to know that. I'm just talking common sense, here.

Faust video uproar (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060202/ap_en_tv/faust_video)

[msnicolea]

I definitely don't think it's an age-appropriate opera, althogh at least puppets were involved!! Maybe if it the whole thing was a Muppets version, with one of the old dudes in the balcony as Mephistopheles, then THAT would have been something worthwhile!

[wendalah]

The puppets thing makes it all the more bizarre. WTF? That is just weird.

ETA: (In squeaky voice) "And then, Floppy, he realizes that he has to suffer the pits of hell forever! Neeeeato!"

[msnicolea]

Yeah--it's just not right.

[greenbunny]

I think she should have known better as far as age appropriateness...but some of the parental comments show they haven't even bothered to research the actual opera. The story of Faust isn't obscure. A man tries to bargain with the devil and loses...how does that glorify Satan? It sounds like the people who scream that Huck Finn is racist.

On the bright side, at least she didn't show Berg's Wosseck, right?

[allyray231]

I was like "what is the big deal??" till I saw the age group. Not what I would show litte kids

I remeber when I was in 4th grade they read all these really scary horror stories to us --I got really scared and made my dad call the school.

I was a wimp :)

[Secret_Squirrel]

She didn't show the whole Opera, she showed an educational video designed to introduce young children to Opera.

According to Music In Motion, a website for educational resources:
Soprano Joan Sutherland, along with her puppet friends and the London Symphony, introduce children to opera. The stories are told in advance with engaging humor, and highlights of the operas are then presented in their original languages.
1 hour video includes 2 operas.

The series is sold on various elementary-education websites, including for homeschoolers. The Baltimore Opera recommends the program for grades 3 - 8, although with the puppetry, I'd hesitate to show it to any grade above 5. It doesn't even show the whole Opera, just bits and pieces.

And yes, some of those parent's comments do disturb me (especially since DH and I are contemplating a move to the Denver area).

I'm not sure it's appropriate for a high school student," Robby Warner said after two of her children saw the video.

Another parent, Casey Goodwin, said, "I think it glorifies Satan in some way."

I wonder if any of the parents who think the Opera glorifies Satan has ever seen it, or the snippets from the educational video?

It may have been a bit mature for the younger grades, but it was hardly an introduction to the works of Anton LaVey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_LaVey)

[msnicolea]

Oh, I think some of the parents are completely out of line, no doubt--I don't think the video is age-appropriate, but some of them are really going off the deep end!

[allyray231]

ITA msnicolea

[wendalah]

What I'm baffled/amused by is: What is wrong with these teachers? Lately there have been incidents that make me question their basic intelligence. First of all, I don't care if the video has puppets and is designed for kids. Any work involving suicide, hell, soul-selling, etc. is too heavy for younger kids. (I think church sermons are often too heavy for kids.) Basic sense should guide that. Plus, you'd have to be dumb as a rock to teach in that community and not realize you're going to freak certain parents out. Just like that teacher who had the kids doing a research assignment on porn sites. Get a clue, like some parent isn't going to freak out on that?

Seriously--I find it much more disturbing that a teacher would be so clueless about the community she's teaching in, or clueless about what is age-appropriate for a bunch of 6-year-olds, than I am about a bunch of hick parents misunderstanding the meaning of a play. And I use "hick" loosely. I am certain if I went around my urban-located office full of presumably well-educated people, a lot of them wouldn't know jack about Faust.

[jnettie]

Faust is an odd choice for an educational video on opera for children. It's a great opera, but not for 6 year olds. I think maybe 6th grade or by Jr. High it's ok. Really, why Faust? I can think of a few others off the top of my head that would be better..."The Magic Flute" or "Hansel and Gretel". Even "Turando" would be better than "Faust".

In times like these, I think of my Dad. He would always say "never attribute to malice what can easily be explained by stupidity." I bet this teacher never watched the video and didn't even know the story of Faust. I bet she just saw an educational video and figured it would be fine and popped it in the VCR.

[KarenS]

The school I went to was reading Shakespeare (not the original plays, but versions of them) in 1st grade. I really don't see the big deal.

Ditto whoever said it's like crying that Huck Finn is racist.

Karen

[miel]

Yeah, I saw Romeo and Juliet when I was 6 years old. That's not totally light when you are six. I don't believe in this whole idea of sheltering kids like crazy. You want to stretch their minds? Teach them intense confusing things. They have to ponder and think and figure it out. People who come up against more significant issues early on are more interesting and grounded, in my opinion.

When I was 5 we went to visit Mayan temples and I got to learn all about human sacrifice and a whole bunch of other things. All my friends were probably home watching Saturday morning cartoons!

[msnicolea]

ITA jnettie--I'm all for exposing little ones to opera, classical music, etc. .--but she should have slected a more age-appropriate subject!

Of course, the Hansel and Gretel stories/operas, etc. . scared me whn I was litle--gretel stuck in that cage, getting "plumped up" for slaughter? ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

Of course, the Hansel and Gretel stories/operas, etc. . scared me whn I was litle--gretel stuck in that cage, getting "plumped up" for slaughter? ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
Good point! When I think back now about the brutality of some of the fairy tales I read when I was little... Like the real "Little Mermaid" where she chooses to commit suicide rather than having to kill the prince? That was some scary stuff!

[msnicolea]

Even Disney movies scar! I stil haven't recovered from Bambi, Dumbo, or The Fox and the Hound! My kids aren't watching Disney movies until they turn 16!;)

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

Even Disney movies scar! I stil haven't recovered from Bambi, Dumbo, or The Fox and the Hound! My kids aren't watching Disney movies until they turn 16!;)
Oh yeah... Geez... How did I forget about those? And I remember seeing Sleeping Beauty at the theater when I was four. That was freaking scary! That guy who said he thinks Faust glorifies Satan, I wonder what he thinks of the "Night on Bald Mountain" piece from Fantasia?

ETA: That time I saw Sleeping Beauty when I was four- my sister was five, and my mom took us and the eight-year-old neighbor boy to a Sunday matinee. And left, then picked us up after. :eek: But tons of other parents did that as well. Can you imagine, 300 children under ten, barely any parents? Those poor theater owners.

[espresso]

I am an elementary music teacher so I understand what she was trying to do (get kids interested in opera, yadda, yadda). The article says she is a first year music teacher and in her defense, your first year you just are almost unable think about how these things affect younger children. You open up a catalog full of what looks like cute musical videos (mostly used for sub days) and you don't take into account the deeper adult meaning that the parents will get from it. You just think, "Oh, cute! Puppets and opera. What a great way to get kids interested in opera!"

I am not necessarily defending what she did; I agree that Faust is not appropriate for young children. However I don't think she did it because she's stupid or just didn't think; it was just an honest mistake that unfortunately got blown out of proportion. Hopefully she will learn from her mistake and think outside her classroom in the future.

And just an FYI, a great way to introduce kids to the opera is the "Little Red Riding Hood Opera." It was written for kids and it is just fabulous!!

[amyloo]

Ditto what shellslake said.

I'm an elemntary music teacher and strictly speaking- there are very few operas that most people would consider "appropriate for children". So to teach the most famous operas the teacher can either censor the material or not cover it. I haven't seen the video in question- but I can say that there are many shades of gray when it comes to these things. Some of them are wonderful... I think she just didn't watch it beforehand- and that is the biggest no-no IMO.

I bought a musical version of the 3 Little Pigs that shocked me when I previewed it. How they managed to turn THAT story into something dirty is beyond me- but I ended up having to throw it away.:rolleyes:

[Scooter]

...portions of a 33-year-old series titled "Who's Afraid of Opera"...In the last 33 years I'm sure someone has shown this to elementary school kids before. Sure the teacher probably should have shown better judgement and not let the younger kids see it. But I also have to compare it to what most of those kids are likely being exposed to on TV and in movies nowadays. Plus, it was only a few clips from the opera.

When I was in 5th grade, our class went to see Faust at the opera house (original language with subtitles) & it was amazing. We had lots of discussions before & after about the content, and there were no problems. No parents complained, kids weren't upset, nothing. Sometimes kids are more sosphisticated than you'd think. ;)


Another parent, Casey Goodwin, said, "I think it glorifies Satan in some way."
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[wendalah]

So to teach the most famous operas the teacher can either censor the material or not cover it.

I don't think they need to avoid opera altogether--just maybe wait until the kids are a little older.

BTW I don't get all the eye-rolling. So they don't understand Faust? Whoopie.

Are you disgusted because they don't get the concept of the play, or because there's an underlying "Christian" thing going on here? (Don't pretend there isn't.) For example, would you be rolling your eyes if it were a bunch of uneducated, inner-city parents who were objecting to something non-Devil related? My guess is you'd be more understanding and not expect them to know so much about opera...no?

I would give both scenarios some slack, personally. Being white and Christian doesn't automatically make you erudite. And if they are genuinely God-fearing folks then I don't think eye-rolling at their beliefs is the best way to explain Faust to them.

[jnettie]

I think it's more because some parents are commenting on "Faust" without knowing the story. Saying it glorifies Satan is just wrong when, in fact, Faust is a morality tale. In the end, Faust looses everything. They have every right to be upset - heck, I might be upset and I'm rather familiar with "Faust" - but I think you should at least have a good reason.

For example, say you are a parent who's never seen "Faust" or any opera for that matter. Your child who is 7 sees this video and the next night has nightmares. A perfectly legitimate reason for complaint is that your child's teacher showed the class something that made your child have nightmares. Something educational should not be scary. You don't have to be familiar with the work to complain in this case. KWIM?

Unfortunately, it seems like most complaints about education come from a religious perspective. And the parent's comment about glorifying Satan falls into that spectrum.

[wendalah]

I think it's more because some parents are commenting on "Faust" without knowing the story. Saying it glorifies Satan is just wrong when, in fact, Faust is a morality tale.

Of course. But I'm just saying: So they misunderstood the concept of the play and didn't bother to actually research it. We're talking about people in a "prairie town" or whatever the article described the locale as. I am willing to bet these are not the most educated people around. I find it disturbing, personally, that just because there's a religious undertone to this (not uncommon in rural areas), there's a sense of "being disturbed" and eye-rolling going on.

[KarenS]

So they misunderstood the concept of the play and didn't bother to actually research it. We're talking about people in a "prairie town" or whatever the article described the locale as.So living in the boondocks is an excuse for being ignorant and jumping to conclusions?

I find it disturbing, personally, that just because there's a religious undertone to this (not uncommon in rural areas), there's a sense of "being disturbed" and eye-rolling going on.I find it disturbing, personally, that living in a rural area is considered a reasonable excuse for being an ignorant religious bigot.

Karen

[wendalah]

So living in the boondocks is an excuse for being ignorant and jumping to conclusions?

Am I excusing them?
I'm just not all that disturbed or disgusted by the fact that there are uneducated people all over the country, Christians included.

ignorant religious bigot

Objecting to Faust connotes bigotry? Interesting.

[msnicolea]

Yikes! I'm not at all comfortable calling these families "religious bigots." That seems a bit strong and over-assuming to me. Perhaps they aren't well-educated re: the content of Faust, and perhaps they (some of them) jumped to conclusions and made ill-informed comments re: satanic themes, but that doesn't make them bigots.

[wendalah]

No frigging kidding. I am CONCERNED that there are uneducated people out there, but I am not DISTURBED by it. And I don't see the point of looking down condescendingly on someone for misunderstanding something that's probably out of their cultural/educational range and/or seems initially threatening to their beliefs. That's not going to solve anything.

[KarenS]

Yikes! I'm not at all comfortable calling these families "religious bigots." Any time someone talks about not teaching something based only on their ignorant religious intolerance (i.e. X glorifies Satan) w/out bothering to actually find out if it *does* glorify Satan (whatever that means) or to find out more about it, then yes, I consider that religious bigotry. And yes, I find that disturbing.

Yikes! I'm not at all comfortable calling these families "religious bigots." No, the *reason* that at least one parent objected to Faust is religious bigotry. AS someone else above said, if the complaint was "my child came home and had nightmares" or "I don't think the subject matter is appropriate" that would be one thing. But to wholesale condemn the opera for being "Satanistic" or "glorifying Satan" only because it *mentions* Satan is religious intolerance of the worst kind.

Karen

[wendalah]

But to wholesale condemn the opera for being "Satanistic" or "glorifying Satan" only because it *mentions* Satan is religious intolerance of the worst kind.


Reacting to an opera containing Satan references in a first-grade classroom is religious intolerance of the worst kind? Gee, and here I thought burning crosses on people's front lawns and bombing womens' health clinics was a bit worse.

ETA: OK, I am being a bit of a smart astronaut here--but the fact that we are dealing with A) young children, B) obviously not that culturally adept parents, and C) not an outright ban on anything, just some uproar over the curriculum for (again) very young children...all of this lessens the "big" in the bigot to me.

[lawyerlee]

No, the *reason* that at least one parent objected to Faust is religious bigotry.
Karen
That's a pretty fine distinction. If you're saying the reason they objects is out of bigotry, then they must be bigots in your mind. That's just splitting hairs. :(

I may not agree with the way these people voiced their objections, but I do agree that the subjects involved in opera are entirely too heavy for kids that age.

[KarenS]

That's a pretty fine distinction. If you're saying the reason they objects is out of bigotry, then they must be bigots in your mind. That's just splitting hairs.Maybe. I'm not sure. I'm getting tangled up in others semantics. If you object to something on a religious basis w/out bothering to find out if your objection is based in fact, that's religious bigotry at work. If you (generic you) believe showing religious bigotry makes someone a relgious bigot, then I guess that's an accurate interpretation.

Karen

[KarenS]

Reacting to an opera containing Satan references in a first-grade classroom is religious intolerance of the worst kind? Gee, and here I thought burning crosses on people's front lawns and bombing womens' health clinics was a bit worse.And where do you think the slippery slope begins? Those who would condemn something for religious reasons w/out bothering to find out the facts about that thing ... it's a very short walk from there to burning books, and then to burning crosses.

Karen

[wendalah]

Those who would condemn something for religious reasons w/out bothering to find out the facts about that thing ... it's a very short walk from there to burning books, and then to burning crosses.


I wouldn't make the leap from not immediately understanding Faust to burning books and burning crosses. That's a bit disproportionate. As noted before we are dealing with a subject that requires some literary sophistication. I don't think it's on the same level as, say, condemning Tinky Winky for carrying a purse.

I find it rather intolerant in and of itself to assume that just because a rural, religious, and conservative community misunderstands the value of a work that requires some cultural erudition, or questions this material in conjunction with their young children's education, they are immediately on the road to being bigots.

If, as I'd noted before, the teacher had been more sensitive to the climate of the community she was teaching in, she may have been able to avoid this controversy by explaining to parents beforehand what she was teaching. I'm not saying it's her fault nor her responsibility to do this--she didn't lose her job, after all. Just saying--if you want to combat ignorance, you don't just smack people in the face with a copy of Finnegan's Wake and yell, "Idiot!" Clearly these parents aren't the sharpest when it comes to cultural sophistication. How does it help to look down one's nose instead of, say, thinking of a way to explain it to them?

BTW, how easy is it to just pick up a score of Faust and understand it? How many of these people have Internet access, or know how to research at the library? We don't know.

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

I find it rather intolerant in and of itself to assume that just because a rural, religious, and conservative community misunderstands the value of a work that requires some cultural erudition, or questions this material in conjunction with their young children's education, they are immediately on the road to being bigots.

If, as I'd noted before, the teacher had been more sensitive to the climate of the community she was teaching in, she may have been able to avoid this controversy by explaining to parents beforehand what she was teaching. I'm not saying it's her fault nor her responsibility to do this--she didn't lose her job, after all. Just saying--if you want to combat ignorance, you don't just smack people in the face with a copy of Finnegan's Wake and yell, "Idiot!" Clearly these parents aren't the sharpest when it comes to cultural sophistication. How does it help to look down one's nose instead of, say, thinking of a way to explain it to them?

BTW, how easy is it to just pick up a score of Faust and understand it? How many of these people have Internet access, or know how to research at the library? We don't know.
Okay... This is actually starting to bother me. "Small town" =/= yokels with no grasp of culture. Bennett, Colorado is a town of 2,500 only 25 miles outside of Denver. Nearly 90% of the adult population has a high school degree or higher. I think it's a bit much to write off the whole population as ignorant small-towners who lack cultural erudition because a couple turkeys are too lazy to find out what they're talking about before they bitch and moan.

ETA: I'm probably overreacting a bit, I know. I'm sorry- it's just a bit of a sore point. :)

[jnettie]

LittleFred...I was going to say something similar. I grew up in a small town about the same size. I had some really great teachers in elementary school. It had it's share of religious zelots, and a good portion of the students didn't graduate from HS. However, since living in NYC, I've discovered that these traits are not reserved for small towns.

I'm going to go back and re-read that article. It would be interesting to see what other parents have to say. Perhaps we are making mountains out of molehills - it's possible that the journalist used that particular quote because of it's religious nature.

ETA...education is often linked to the wealth or poorness of a town or area. My town had a large portion of poor people and our school wasn't funded that well. Therefore, most of the kids I went to school with were not exposed to the arts at all. DH grew up in a wealthy town, nearly everyone graduated HS and went to college, and they had a huge arts program starting in Kindergarten. Finally, poor kids in NYC have an advantage that all the arts organizations here often have free programs for public school kids. So, you're average poor city kid is more likely to have seen a play or ballet or opera than your average poor country kid. We had occasional school assemblies at my school, but nothing in the fine arts. Meanwhile, NYC Ballet has a least one free performance of "The Nutcracker" every year for public school kids.

and re-ETA to post: Denver Post Article (http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_3448876)... since there is a current theme of checking multiple sources. ;)
Waggoner, who found the version of "Faust" on a shelf in the elementary music room, thought it would be a good way to introduce students to opera and the sound of trained voices.
I found this interesting. They had the video at the school, so I bet the teacher thought it was already approved by the school.

[KarenS]

I find it rather intolerant in and of itself to assume that just because a rural, religious, and conservative community misunderstands the value of a work that requires some cultural erudition, or questions this material in conjunction with their young children's education, they are immediately on the road to being bigots. I'm not the one posting that rural = conservative = uneducated. You're the one who keeps saying that we need to cut them some slack because they're rural and therefore uneducated and/or unsophisticated. I am saying that *anyone* ... ANYONE ... educated or not, who out of hand rejects anything (TV show, work of literature, opera, book, whatever) by condemning it for a religious reason w/out bothering to even attempt to learn anything about it is exhibiting religious intolerance. And religious intolerance for anything is a slippery slope to book banning, censorship, and bigotry.

Karen

[wendalah]

I think it's a bit much to write off the whole population as ignorant small-towners who lack cultural erudition because a couple turkeys are too lazy to find out what they're talking about before they bitch and moan.


Actually--OK, your point is taken.
I did note, too, earlier--that I think quite a few people in my "big-town" area probably don't know crap about Faust.

[wendalah]

I'm not the one posting that rural = conservative = uneducated. You're the one who keeps saying that we need to cut them some slack because they're rural and therefore uneducated and/or unsophisticated.

Yes, and I'm not calling anyone a bigot, either. I'd rather be called uneducated than be accused of being a bigot.

[jp'swife]

From reading these parts in the DenverPost.com article....

I'm happy to read this:
George Sauter, district superintendent, said Waggoner is not in danger of losing her job. He praised her work in general, saying she was simply inexperienced in terms of the district's policies and should not have shown the video to students below the fourth grade.

I'm saddened to hear this about a teacher being that it is a HUGE accusation to make and very harsh:
However, from what has been said about me, that I'm a Satan worshiper, my character, I can't believe all this. ... My intention was just to expose the kids to opera."

I don't know of this video first hand to make a judgement on content, but if kids were having nightmares and it's a more mature storyline than its audience, it shouldn't have been shown.
At least one mom agrees. Linda Miller, whose third-grader saw the video, said "maybe it shouldn't have been shown to the kids in that age group, but I don't think it should have been blown out of proportion as it has been."

[KarenS]

Yes, and I'm not calling anyone a bigot, either. I'd rather be called uneducated than be accused of being a bigot.I'm not sure why the conversation is going this way. This isn't about what you'd prefer to be called if someone were calling you something.

A person objected to the opera on the grounds that it was "glorifying Satan". That is an inaccurate comment based on a knee jerk religious reaction and no attempt to learn the fact of the storyline.

What about that is NOT religiously intolerant?

Karen

[wendalah]

I'm not sure why the conversation is going this way.

I am leaning in this direction because I feel there is a lot of (what I feel is) not-entirely warranted scorn being thrown toward the parents simply because they objecting on what appears to be a Christian level. I also think "bigot" is a bit strong of a word to throw around in this case. I explained earlier why I feel this way. I don't equate a bit of xenophobia in this case as being really that disturbing. Many Christians are hypersensitive to anything regarding Satan, and if they feel that they don't want their children exposed to any sort of such content until they are old enough to understand better--that's their business.

Add to this the opera is really not that age-appropriate, and it's a bit of an intimidating work which many (regardless of locale) may find challenging to dig into. So some got lazy and bitched, as LF put it.

Would I have made a fuss? Probably not. Do I still think the teacher was a bit of a dope for presenting this in a class located in what she describes as a conservative community? Yup, and that was really my main point.

[wendalah]

And, then again--I wasn't all that disturbed by some Christians "misreading" Halloween, either.
Yeah, they (meaning some Christians) aren't getting the point. But telling them they're ignorant bigots isn't going to make them go, "Oh gee! I should be a totally different way."

[KarenS]

Many Christians are hypersensitive to anything regarding Satan, and if they feel that they don't want their children exposed to any sort of such content until they are old enough to understand better--that's their business. Sure, that's fine. But it's one thing to say "I don't want my child exposed to things about Satan until he/she is better able to understand the concepts." It's another thing to just blanketly condemn the work itself as "glorifying Satan" without bothering to even attempt to learn anything about it. That's ignorance and intolerance, plain and simple.

I'm kind of at a loss to understand why you are arguing that concept and why you are so upset at that being pointed out. You'd rather condemn an entire group of people as being "ignorant" based on their geography than acknolwedge that at least one person is acting an a religiously intolerant and bigoted way. I'm kind of baffled by that.

But I feel like I'm just repeating myself at this point - so I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree here. I don't see contining this discussion is going to do anything but frustrate both of us! :)

Karen

[wendalah]

I'm kind of at a loss to understand why you are arguing that concept and why you are so upset at that being pointed out.

I'm repeating myself here too.

As I pointed out, I think that if we were talking about a different group of people whom we might also assume as being uneducated about Faust, and who weren't objecting on Christian grounds, there would be a lot more slack cut and less eyes rolled.

I get tired of this general scorn towards certain groups of Christians, so I made a comment about it.

And, I don't think calling a group of people uneducated or even "ignorant" is necessarily "condemning" them.

[flygirl]

Wendy, I'm surprised by your reaction to what you infer as religious bigotry. No one referred to religion before you brought it up. Honestly, the comments I read are referring to ignorance in general, not degrading anyone who is against satanic glorification. The point is that the opera does not glorify satan; if anything, it does the opposite. The eye-rolling is at the ingorant parent who didn't bother to inform herself about the satanic references in the opera.

[KarenS]

I think that if we were talking about a different group of people whom we might also assume as being uneducated about Faust, and who weren't objecting on Christian grounds, there would be a lot more slack cut and less eyes rolled.Not true. I'd still roll my eyes at anyone who condemned any book, play, what have you, w/out bothering to even attempt to learn about it's basic story line - choosing to be ignorant and small minded w/out any real knowledge. The difference is that I probably wouldn't then accuse them of being religiously intolerant and bigoted if their attitude wasn't religiously based.

I get tired of this general scorn towards certain groups of Christians, Well, I get equally tired of the ignorant and religiously intolerant attitude put out by certain groups of Christians that reflects badly on all the rest of us who profess to be Christians. Those Christians who would rather close their eyes and shriek "Satanic" rather than bothering to learn about the thing they're condemning deserve scorn, IMO. They're being ignorant and bigoted by so doing.

Karen

[wendalah]

Flygirl: I hear what you are saying, but let's get real. Who tends to freak out about Satan? Not Jews. Not atheists. Etc. Sure, I brought it up, I'll own it.

[prudies]

I haven't carefully studied the coverage, but to me it seems like the media played on these well known stereotypes to make a good story. From there the controversy sort of took on a life of its own. Maybe a couple parents freaked out about the presence of satan in the story, but at the outset most parents probably just thought the whole thing was too scary for 1st graders. It seems we're pretty eager to buy the story of the small town simple church going folk versus the new teacher with her crazy big city lessons!

[wendalah]

It seems we're pretty eager to buy the story of the small town simple church going folk versus the new teacher with her crazy big city lessons!


I was thinking about this too. And I found that kind of irksome in and of itself.

[jnettie]

Flygirl: I hear what you are saying, but let's get real. Who tends to freak out about Satan? Not Jews. Not atheists. Etc. Sure, I brought it up, I'll own it.
Well, exactly, who does bring up Satan? It's the default complaint. "Oh, that's Satanic." It happens soooooooooo often that, yes eyerolling ensues. 90% of the time when something is labeled as "Satanic" or "glorifying Satan" by Christians, it's not. And I can't think of another group of people that protests more often against things that they have not seen or have no knowledge of.

- "The Last Temptation of Christ" got Nikos Kasanstakis excommunicated from the Greek Orthodox church without any of them reading it. He was devout until then. The movie was protested without anyone seeing it.

- "Dogma" was protested by the Catholic Church without anyone seeing it.

- Halloween is under attack based on the idea that it is Satanic when it is no such thing.

The list goes on. So, yes, eyerolling happens. It's not as if it's unwarrented.

[wendalah]

Of course I get this point. However, I don't necessarily think eye-rolling is warranted. Some people feel very strongly about their faith and are defensive of it. I don't see why that in and of itself is worthy of such scorn. In the other thread about the Mohammed cartoons, I do not agree whatsoever with the extreme actions being taken, but I can understand and respect (if nothing else) that these individuals take their religion very seriously and probably fearfully.

[KarenS]

Some people feel very strongly about their faith and are defensive of it. I don't see why that in and of itself is worthy of such scorn.Being defensive of your faith is one thing - using your faith to blanket condemn things that you don't know about and don't bother to learn about *is* worthy of scorn.

I guess I'm kind of surprised that you're so vehemently defending that kind of ignorance.

And I can't think of another group of people that protests more often against things that they have not seen or have no knowledge of. Exactly. It makes the eyerolling totally warranted because it's so ubiquitous!

Karen

[wendalah]

Being defensive of your faith is one thing - using your faith to blanket condemn things that you don't know about and don't bother to learn about *is* worthy of scorn.

I don't think so in all cases. I am not defending the ignorance, as you put it. I'm trying to be understanding about where these people are coming from. To me that's more productive than rolling my eyes at them. If you can't see the difference between trying to figure out how all the pieces fit together and understanding them, and "defending ignorance," then, well, I'm sorry.

This is really going nowhere.

[Scooter]

BTW I don't get all the eye-rolling. So they don't understand Faust? Whoopie.

Are you disgusted because they don't get the concept of the play, or because there's an underlying "Christian" thing going on here? (Don't pretend there isn't.) For example, would you be rolling your eyes if it were a bunch of uneducated, inner-city parents who were objecting to something non-Devil related? My guess is you'd be more understanding and not expect them to know so much about opera...no?

I would give both scenarios some slack, personally. Being white and Christian doesn't automatically make you erudite. And if they are genuinely God-fearing folks then I don't think eye-rolling at their beliefs is the best way to explain Faust to them.

I assume you're addressing me. I rolled my eyes because if you're going to oppose something, it's generally a good idea to find out something about what you're opposing. And, albeit secondary to that, it seems silly to assume that if Satan is mentioned then it is glorifying Satan.

I'm impressed by how many words you managed to put into my mouth, though!

However, I don't necessarily think eye-rolling is warranted.

Of course not, since you made a lot of assumptions about why someone would have that reaction. Since there are obviously other people in this thread who understand my POV, yes it is warranted, just not something you agree with. Telling someone their reaction is invalid because of your beliefs is a bit silly, IMO.

[wendalah]

Telling someone their reaction is invalid because of your beliefs is a bit silly, IMO.

Debating whether one's reaction is warranted or unwarranted (which I mentioned several times "In my opinion it's unwarranted") isn't invalidating, it's debating. And, btw, this has nothing to do with my beliefs, if you are referring to my religious beliefs. I am not a fundamentalist Christian.

And sure, I made some assumptions. Am I completely wrong? I made a bit of a leap there. If you are honestly not scorning the Christian aspect of this at all, I misread you. Like they misread Faust. (Cough.)

[Scooter]

Debating whether one's reaction is warranted or unwarranted (which I mentioned several times "In my opinion it's unwarranted") isn't invalidating, it's debating. And, btw, this has nothing to do with my beliefs, if you are referring to my religious beliefs. I am not a fundamentalist Christian.

And sure, I made some assumptions. Am I completely wrong? I made a bit of a leap there. If you are honestly not scorning the Christian aspect of this at all, I misread you. Like they misread Faust. (Cough.)

Wait, so are you debating or not? First you say that it's ok to say someone else's viewpoint is unwarranted, and then you ask if you're wrong for making assumptions and a leap. Either you're trying to reason logically or not--you can't have it both ways. You can't invalidate someone else's belief in the name of debate and then use your own opinion to back up your point. That makes no sense.

And yes, telling someone that their viewpoint isn't warranted is invalidating their opinion. You can play with the semantics, but that is what's going on.

Honestly, I really couldn't care less what religion you are, I don't know why you keep going back to this religious part of it. I was referring to your beliefs about the eye rolling.


ETA: forgot to add, at first I didn't think you misreading me is comparable to the parents misreading "Faust." Although, I did say what bothered me about it: I rolled my eyes because if you're going to oppose something, it's generally a good idea to find out something about what you're opposing. So maybe the situation is comparable afterall.

[wendalah]

I didn't ask if I were wrong for making assumptions. I asked if my assumptions were wrong. Sorry for the confusion.

So maybe the situation is comparable afterall.


Fair 'nuff!

[curlyjr]

I am an elementary music teacher and I also agree that it is not age appropriate, but I really sympathize with the teacher. I know what it is like to read a description and have a movie in the school library labeled as age appropriate then realize it is an entire different thing!

[jp'swife]

I am an elementary music teacher and I also agree that it is not age appropriate, but I really sympathize with the teacher. I know what it is like to read a description and have a movie in the school library labeled as age appropriate then realize it is an entire different thing!

Would you normally view it ahead of time before showing it to the class?
I brought this situation up to my dad today. He was a 7th and 8th grade English teacher and just retired last year.
He felt bad for the teacher also but mentioned that she really should've viewed it ahead of time and tried to think like a parent (of one of her students) and do some critical thinking of what she could possibly be introducing to a first grade class. He also agreed that it's not for a first grade class as it's not really age-appropriate and Faust gets pretty heavy.

He always believed that you get experience over time and that young teachers learn...like he did. He would also get undeserved crap from a parent every so often (like the one who, we believe, just wanted to get her 2 cents in about everything and give him a hard time...she did this as her kids went through the high school too) :rolleyes: but I digress.

[curlyjr]

I had seen parts of it and had seen productions of it ( it was a musical) and knew all of the songs. I didn't realize how risque(sp?) some of the costumes were in the movie version however, luckily I spotted the problem before the kids and turned it off.