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tgray99
02-03-2006, 10:40 AM
From http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3633712.html

Feb. 3, 2006, 8:54AM
Seahawks kick 12th Man dispute to federal court

By MICHAEL GRACZYK
Associated Press

BRYAN -- The Seattle Seahawks ran an end-around on Texas A&M, removing from an Aggie hometown court Thursday their dispute over the "12th Man" slogan used by the university and the Super Bowl-bound NFL team.

In a three-page "Notice of Removal" filed about two hours before a scheduled hearing in a Brazos County court just a few miles from the A&M campus, the Seahawks transferred the case to federal court in Houston, about 100 miles away.

Since Texas A&M is alleging a violation of its federally registered trademark by the Seahawks, a federal court has jurisdiction in the case, according to documents filed by J. Michael Bell, a Houston-based lawyer for the team.

"It brings everything here to a screeching halt unless the federal court decides to remand it," said state District Judge J.D. Langley.

Langley said the maneuver was fairly common for a case involving entities from different regions.

U.S. District Judge Ewing Werlein set a pretrial and scheduling conference for June 16.

Steve Moore, A&M's chief marketing officer and vice president for communications, said the legal tactic was not unexpected.

"The surprise to me is that they've been just so silent and have not reached out with any solution," Moore said.

The move to federal court means no resolution of the case before Sunday's Super Bowl, where the Seahawks face the Pittsburgh Steelers.

"We never intended to try to coincide with the Super Bowl," Moore said. "The situation we were in is if we didn't do something with the Super Bowl coming, we would be in very very dangerous territory because with something as large as the Super Bowl, it's very hard to say you didn't know infringement was taking place, or I'm being a nice guy and I'm going to let them do it during that time."

"What you're saying from a trademark standpoint, you're saying you don't care about your trademark. And if you didn't protect it, then in fact there is no dilution and everyone can use it, and we certainly weren't prepared to do that."

Bell, listed on court documents as "attorney-in-charge" for the Seahawks, did not return telephone calls from The Associated Press.

The university owns the trademark to its generations-old "12th Man" reference for Aggie supporters in the stands and earlier this week won a temporary court order from Langley, an A&M graduate, to keep the Seahawks from using "12th Man" in their marketing.

The Seahawks have recognized their followers as a "12th Man" since the mid-1980s and even retired the No. 12 jersey in 1984. Now with Seattle in the Super Bowl, their "12th Man" promotion, which previously has aggravated the Aggies, has gained an even higher profile.

Texas A&M has been arguing the NFL team is infringing on the school's legal claim to the slogan, which they say they've used for more than 80 years. The school twice has registered trademarks for the "12th Man" label — in 1990 and 1996 — that include entertainment services and products like caps, T-shirts, novelty buttons and jewelry.

Seattle's version of a "12th Man" banner, a flag with the No. 12 on it, was flying this week from the team's hotel in suburban Detroit. So was a flag atop Seattle's signature Space Needle and the state Capitol in Olympia. Then there's all the team merchandise and apparel with the "12th Man" logo.

At A&M, the slogan dates to 1922 when a student, E. King Gill, was pulled from the stands to suit up for the injury-depleted Aggies as they faced top-ranked Centre College. Gill didn't play, but he was the last player standing on the sidelines in reserve as the Aggies won 22-14.

A tradition was born. "Home of the 12 Man" is in huge letters at Kyle Field, where Aggie students stand during games as a sign of their readiness and support.

A&M sent letters to the Seahawks in 2004 and 2005, protesting use of the slogan. School officials said the team never responded.

tgray99
02-03-2006, 10:42 AM
Personally, I think that the Seahawks are completely in the wrong here. They've been asked numerous times over the years to cease and desist infringing on the copyright owned by the university and they have chosen not to. I hope A&M prosecutes to the fullest extent of the law. What's the point of copyrighting something if someone's just going to come along and blatantly ignore it.

Sposa06
02-03-2006, 10:44 AM
The Seahawks are far from the only team using the 12th man - Texas A&M is just choosing to go after them because they're in the Super Bowl.

tgray99
02-03-2006, 10:51 AM
But copyright infringement is copyright infringement. Sure, Seattle is in the Super Bowl, and A&M chose to pursue the matter legally because it puts the infringement on a more national level. They're still breaking the law and so is every other team that uses the logo/term.

msnicolea
02-03-2006, 10:56 AM
Yeah--if A & M indeed owns the term, then they are well within their rights to sue. I know that when I hear the phrase, I always think if A & M--it really is their "brand."

katmg
02-03-2006, 11:13 AM
I think it's pretty dumb of pro-teams to "borrow" the 12th man phrase. I may be biased, being here in Texas, but I will always think of that as A&M's thing.

tgray99
02-03-2006, 11:14 AM
See
The university owns the trademark to its generations-old "12th Man" reference for Aggie supporters in the stands and earlier this week won a temporary court order from Langley, an A&M graduate, to keep the Seahawks from using "12th Man" in their marketing.

And
Texas A&M has been arguing the NFL team is infringing on the school's legal claim to the slogan, which they say they've used for more than 80 years. The school twice has registered trademarks for the "12th Man" label — in 1990 and 1996 — that include entertainment services and products like caps, T-shirts, novelty buttons and jewelry.

Also (a photo taken at Kyle Field)
http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a353/tgray99/TexasAggie12thMan.jpg

Dally
02-03-2006, 01:57 PM
The Seahawks don't actually use "12th man" on their flag or on their jerseys. They use "12," and they have for many years. I go the games, so I can back up that's the way it is used. I'm pretty sure you can't trademark a number, so I don't think the lawsuit can really go any place. It's true that the Seattle media uses "12th man" a lot, but that's not who Texas A&M sued.

I disagree that Seattle is in the wrong. I don't think they are infringing upon the copyright by using "12." Also, I don't know why Texas A&M took 20 years to say something. The Seahwawks retired the number 12 in 1984, but Texas didn't respond until 2004? I'm not sure why this is an issue all of the sudden. Seems strange.

One other thing: how does Seattle using the number "12" in any way hurt Texas A&M? Are they afraid their fans might mistakenly buy a Seahawks jersey with the number 12 on it instead of buying an Aggie jersey? I'm serious. Usually trademark infringement is about money. I really can't see how there's any issue around that for Texas A&M.

I'm happy to wear Seahawks no. 12 to football games. And I honestly don't know why the Aggies care, but I'm certainly not going to stop. I guess they can sue me, too, if they want.

Dally
02-03-2006, 02:03 PM
What the Seahawks use:
http://www.timesunion.com/Shared/Graphics/NewsDB/AP/SUPER%20BOWL%2012TH%20MAN%20FLAG%20FOOTBALL%20WAJF 10101310008_TN.jpg

Maybe Texas A&M should sued the Seattle media. They do use "12th man."

Sposa06
02-03-2006, 02:08 PM
The Seahawks don't actually use "12th man" on their flag or on their jerseys. They use "12," and they have for many years. I go the games, so I can back up that's the way it is used. I'm pretty sure you can't trademark a number, so I don't think the lawsuit can really go any place. It's true that the Seattle media uses "12th man" a lot, but that's not who Texas A&M sued.

I disagree that Seattle is in the wrong. I don't think they are infringing upon the copyright by using "12." Also, I don't know why Texas A&M took 20 years to say something. The Seahwawks retired the number 12 in 1984, but Texas didn't respond until 2004? I'm not sure why this is an issue all of the sudden. Seems strange.

Exactly. There ar eblue flags with a white 12 flown around town, but the people who are saying "12th man" are the sportswriters and the broadcasters. The Seahawks themselves just use the number 12. So I think it's silly that Texas A&M has chosen to make a big deal of it so close to the Super Bowl when the Seahawks are just using a number. There are teams around the country that use the number 12. The Seattle fans and media use 12th man, but the organization itself uses just the 12 (thanks for posting the pic, Dally!). So, I guess if you guys want to sue us each individually, have at it. Otherwise, I think it's just silly to pick on the Seahawks.

Secret_Squirrel
02-03-2006, 02:34 PM
I think we ought to trademark The Wave - since it was invented here - and make every stadium pay us a royalty before some fans can stand up and throws their arms in the air in time. </jk>

Besides, the Seahawks don't sell merchandise with the words "The 12th Man" and the Aggies don't own a number. We've been using the #12 to designate the power of a fan since at least 1984 - that was 26 years ago.

And according to Harvard Law School (http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/metaschool/fisher/domain/tm.htm#6), trademarks can be lost if they become generic over time:

Trademark rights can also be lost through genericity. Sometimes, trademarks that are originally distinctive can become generic over time, thereby losing its trademark protection Kellogg Co. v. National Biscuit Co., 305 U.S. 111 (1938). A word will be considered generic when, in the minds of a substantial majority of the public, the word denotes a broad genus or type of product and not a specific source or manufacturer. So, for example, the term "thermos" has become a generic term and is no longer entitled to trademark protection. Although it once denoted a specific manufacturer, the term now stands for the general type of product. Similarly, both "aspirin" and "cellophane" have been held to be generic. Bayer Co. v. United Drug Co., 272 F.505 (S.D.N.Y. 1921). In deciding whether a term is generic, courts will often look to dictionary definitions, the use of the term in newspapers and magazines, and any evidence of attempts by the trademark owner to police its mark.

More criteria:
If a party owns the rights to a particular trademark, that party can sue subsequent parties for trademark infringement. 15 U.S.C. §§ 1114, 1125. The standard is "likelihood of confusion." To be more specific, the use of a trademark in connection with the sale of a good constitutes infringement if it is likely to cause consumer confusion as to the source of those goods or as to the sponsorship or approval of such goods. In deciding whether consumers are likely to be confused, the courts will typically look to a number of factors, including: (1) the strength of the mark; (2) the proximity of the goods; (3) the similarity of the marks; (4) evidence of actual confusion; (5) the similarity of marketing channels used; (6) the degree of caution exercised by the typical purchaser; (7) the defendant's intent. Polaroid Corp. v. Polarad Elect. Corp., 287 F.2d 492 (2d Cir.), cert. denied, 368 U.S. 820 (1961).

Are any Aggie fans going to be duped into buying blue and white 'Hawks merchandise?

I think the Seahawks have a fair point.

Michelle
02-03-2006, 02:49 PM
Like somebody mentioned before, the Seahawks don't officially use the term 12th Man. It's spoken here by media and fans. The flags flying around the city and the jerseys simply say 12. Hence bringing the city together saying that we support our team.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b6dc22b3127cce97539db2588400000016108IZMWrZu0cY
Picture came from this website. (http://www.kirotv.com/index.html)

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I just can't see how flying flags with #12 on them are a trademark infringement.

hockeybrat
02-03-2006, 02:52 PM
Like somebody mentioned before, the Seahawks don't officially use the term 12th Man. It's spoken here by media and fans. The flags flying around the city and the jerseys simply say 12. Hence bringing the city together saying that we support our team.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. I just can't see how flying flags with #12 on them are a trademark infringement.

I don't see it either. Even the flags people have on their cars say 12 not 12th man.

tgray99
02-03-2006, 06:00 PM
From http://www.kirotv.com/sports/6592616/detail.html

Should the Seahawks give up using the "12th Man" moniker because of complaints by Texas A&M?

Yes, they have legal claims. 49727 83%
No, the "12th man" can be used by any team. 9572 16%
Unsure. 404 1%

And this is in Seattle.

The issue is the idea/theme of the 12th Man. It's copyrighted by A&M. The university has requested other teams such as the Bears and the Bills to stop and they have.

Don't flame me, I'm just stating my own opinion (and yes, I am a die hard Aggie, former member of the 12th Man).

Sposa06
02-03-2006, 06:34 PM
Again, it's the difference between the 12th Man and just the 12. If you guys think you're the only ones who can use the #12, you're crazy. If you've got the 12th Man copyrighted, then we would be crazy to continue using it. I'm sure the Seattle media could easily adjust to saying 12th Fan or something. But to think we can't fly our "12" flags? That's just silly.

Rosebud
02-03-2006, 07:05 PM
I have to say, I think this is an incredibly petty lawsuit. Seattle has been using "12" as a rallying cry for fans for like 25 years. Why is A&M suddenly concerned about this right now? :rolleyes:

NONE of the Seahawks merchandise says "12th Man"-- it says "12". And since fans would never confuse their merchandise, how is this hurting A&M?

I don't think you can copyright the IDEA of a 12th man on the field, since that's a pretty generic concept in football going back to the origins of the game. Clearly, A&M has rights to merchandise that says "12th Man" but since Seattle does not replicate that, what's the problem?

Delta
02-03-2006, 08:03 PM
Pooooooooor aggie.

For you non-Texans, A&M takes their traditions very seriously, and this is so not surprising, and so typical. ;)

tgray99
02-03-2006, 09:09 PM
Ok, I didn't think this would be so contentious. Yes, A&M very jealously guards its traditions and I agree with this. However, all I know is what I've read in the news. I didn't mean to upset any Seattle fans. I actually plan on cheering for Seattle on Sunday, a guy I grew up with (who is an Aggie by the way) plays for them (Rocky Bernard).

Nobody be mad at me ok? I'm very nonconfrontational. :o

Sposa06
02-03-2006, 09:28 PM
Oh, no, I don't think any of us are mad at you! We just think the lawsuit is silly, since the Seahawks themselves just use the blue and white 12 - it's the media only using the 12th man.

Dally
02-03-2006, 10:03 PM
Yeah, what Sposa said! :)

BTW, earlier this week, the media asked Rocky Bernard about the lawsuit. He wisely didn't say much--I'm sure he doesn't wasnt to alienate anyone! I'm glad you're rooting for the Seahawks. :)