Communism is the answer

[Rositabean]

There sure are some interesting discussions in this forum. A major recurring theme in most of these discussions is that our disgusting capitalist American society favors the rich much to the dismay and devastation of the poor. The gap between the classes MUST be eliminated and fairness MUST be restored because it is only right. Competition is bad, sharing and harmony is good.

The question should not be are you a Republican or a Democrat? We need to go further for the sake of humanity and forget both inefficient and unfair parties. The answer to all the CC woes lies in communism.

"Communism refers to a conjectured future classless, stateless social organization based upon common ownership of the means of production, and can be classified as a branch of the broader socialist movement. Socialism is an ideology of a social and economic system where the means of production are owned and controlled by all of society. This would ideally eliminate extremely unfair distribution of wealth." (wiki)

That sounds dreamy!:) Classless and stateless. Everyone sharing. We can all hold hands and sing kumbaya.

Please strongly reconsider your Democratic and especially Republican leanings and support the Communist Party USA. http://www.cpusa.org

[LyLMyssChaos]

Um, no. I don't think everyone needs to be equal. Darn it, if I work harder, I want to reap the efforts of that work. I sure hope this was a joke! ;)

[dionysia]

Thanks for the constructive post, Rositabean. :rolleyes:

Di

[IrisHope]

Do I smell a red? j/k

[pocket]

wow! what a stunning contribution to the conversation! i really appreciate you bringing this up, because i have thought for a long time now that not only should we turn back the clock to the 1950's legally and culturally, we should also reawaken the incredibly relevant debate of cold war ideology. communism is such a viable ideology for the post-modern period! kudos to you!

[Rositabean]

LMC Working hard to get money is greedy. Greed is bad. We have to play nice and share.

Di You are so welcome. It is sad that communism is so often neglected when it has so much to offer.

Together we can solve America's crises!

[SiValleySteph]

You're from Orange County?

[lawyerlee]

Boy, it's a good thing we don't restrict the free market in any way, shape, or form. I'd hate to see that.

[thelittlebabu]

Nice fishing trip, Rositabean. Looking to reel them in left and right*, huh? :D

* No pun intended.

[Rositabean]

I didn't say turn back the clock. Lenin, Stalin, Mao...they all had it wrong. Their sorry attempts to create the ideal state failed, but I am sure with our good all-American know how we can get it right! Just because others failed doesn't mean we will.

[Rositabean]

Also, I am somewhat surprised at the lukewarm reception to the communist idea considering it is fully in line with the discussions taking place as of late. We just have to make it feasible for modern times. :)

[msnicolea]

Now THIS is more like it--just like the good ole days on WC. . .

America--like it or leave it!

I bleed Red, White and Blue!

Dissent is unpatriotic!

And I'll proudly STAND UP. . .

[artist]

Edited as the OP is an acting like an [edited] and trying to start something.

[chrisinluv]

] Working hard to get money is greedy. Greed is bad. We have to play nice and share.


Wow, that's some real insight, although nothing new. Refer to the Seven Deadly or Capital Sins and Their Virtues.

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

There sure are some interesting discussions in this forum. A major recurring theme in most of these discussions is that our disgusting capitalist American society favors the rich much to the dismay and devastation of the poor. The gap between the classes MUST be eliminated and fairness MUST be restored because it is only right. Competition is bad, sharing and harmony is good.
You've done a great job of turning it all into trite black and white. Bravo! Screw nuance, who needs detail and understanding anyway?!

[msnicolea]

She's not being brave, artist, and she's not a Communist--she's baiting, using the same old tiresome, ill-informed, uneducated rhetoric.

[pocket]

Also, I am somewhat surprised at the lukewarm reception to the communist idea considering it is fully in line with the discussions taking place as of late. We just have to make it feasible for modern times. :)

this is moronic. perhaps you should marshall an actual argument against the posts you reference rather than start a facetious thread.

[artist]

You're right! She's an [edited]!

I am not a healthcare historian but I did take a college class on the social history of american medicine. That was a while ago so I looked up some info from the Employee Benefit Research Institute and this is the gist of what their "history" section had to say. Companies (like steel mills, etc) employed company doctors funded by employee contributions to care for the workers in company towns. Health insurance as a benefit was not really offered until WW2. There was a labor law limiting pay that companies could offer to employees so they offered health insurance as a perk to attract otherwise reluctant workers. Prior to this time the VAST majority of Americans did NOT have health insurance and those that did had insurance that covered hospitalization, not routine or preventive care.

It is interesting how nowadays, when MORE Americans have insurance, including insurance that covers routine care, we are in a CRISIS! Give me a break. The other interesting thing is how once unions got their hands on negotiating benefits this perk is now a right. And now even non-union employees DEMAND health insurance as if it IS some kind of right. It is insane. How did the health insurance environment become so crazy in the latter half of the last century?

Universal health care...I vote no.


Sorry I bothered to post anything.

[dionysia]

Artist,

Save your reasoned discussion of Socialism for someone who isn't acting like a mythical creature that lives under a bridge.

Di

[msnicolea]

artist--you are such a commie! :p (this guy's pink, just like YOU!)

[artist]

See my editing!

[lawyerlee]

I almost felt like I heard the "t" word.

[artist]

I totally would have discussed the issue if she actually WERE a Communist or Socialist!

[artist]

I almost felt like I heard the "t" word.

I purposefully avoided it. Actually, I don't think she is. Though she apparently doesn't post much, it looks she actually has posted in other threads before.

[msnicolea]

I almost felt like I heard the "t" word.

tapioca?

[dionysia]

tapioca?Ooh, I love tapioca!!

But sometimes I'm in a rice pudding mood, you know?

Di

[JamBray]

"Communism refers to a conjectured future classless, stateless social organization based upon common ownership of the means of production, and can be classified as a branch of the broader socialist movement. Socialism is an ideology of a social and economic system where the means of production are owned and controlled by all of society. This would ideally eliminate extremely unfair distribution of wealth."
Communism is also
A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.

No thanks. I seriously thought this was a joke when I first came in here...unfortunately I was wrong.

Ooo, I'll have some tapioca! :D

[artist]

Ooh, I love tapioca!!

But sometimes I'm in a rice pudding mood, you know?

Di

You must be a Swede then!

[greenbunny]

Though she apparently doesn't post much, it looks she actually has posted in other threads before.

Yes, if I recall correctly she implied everyone who had cats was a filthy beast and then acted innocent when pet owners were offended.

[JamBray]

Yes, if I recall correctly she implied everyone who had cats was a filthy beast and then acted innocent when pet owners was offended.
Oh she's the one? Damn commie. :p

[artist]

Yes, if I recall correctly she implied everyone who had cats was a filthy beast and then acted innocent when pet owners was offended.


Oooh! I have 2 cats AND a dog! (And some goldfish.) I guess that makes me a Commie-Pinko-Filthy-Beast!:D

[dionysia]

You must be a Swede then!Nope, I'm Greek, Italian, & English.

My mom makes the best tapioca pudding. And I really like the rice pudding that the Greek place near my office makes.

Di

[hockeybrat]

Yes, if I recall correctly she implied everyone who had cats was a filthy beast and then acted innocent when pet owners was offended.


I remember that. :mad:

[greenbunny]

Bummer. I fixed my awful typo and now it's quoted all over anyway. *hides in shame* :p

[artist]

I'd prefer chocolate pudding. (Ever add a small amount of milk and mix it all up? Mmmmm!)

[dionysia]

Yes, if I recall correctly she implied everyone who had cats was a filthy beast and then acted innocent when pet owners were offended.Wow, so this is not an isolated incident of PTO (Posting To Offend)?

Di

[dionysia]

Since I got pregnant, I have absolutely no interest in chocolate.

It's sad, really.

Di

[camberne]

Oooh! I have 2 cats AND a dog!ME TOO!! More common ground for the left and right! ;)

FTR, I don't like tapioca. Bleh!

[artist]

:D

What if it's a reincarnation of STFU pirate bride?

[artist]

ME TOO!! More common ground for the left and right! ;)

FTR, I don't like tapioca. Bleh!

:D

I am not into tapioca either! (But hey, you may have the same pets I do, but you'll never get called a "Commie-Pinko-Tree-Hugging-Cruncy-Granola-Eating-Hippe!)

[dionysia]

FTR, I don't like tapioca. Bleh!Cretin! :p

Di
(2 cats, 3 fish, no dogs; but 2000 posts!)

[Sophia]

Since I got pregnant, I have absolutely no interest in chocolate.

It's sad, really.

Di

<delurking>

Same here. :(

</delurking>

[lml41981]

So...your mother ignored you as a child and now you seek attention in any form?

[artist]

Pregnant or not, how could anyone NOT like chocolate? (I think that should autmatically make you a "nutjob"!:) )

[greenbunny]

No CHOCOLATE? *emo tears*

[lml41981]

Pregnant or not, how could anyone NOT like chocolate? (I think that should autmatically make you a "nutjob"!:) )
I like chocolate and nuts. Mmm Nutella.

[artist]

Nutella on toast!

[batgirl]

Originally Posted by dionysia
Since I got pregnant, I have absolutely no interest in chocolate.

It's sad, really.

OMG, me either! I thought I was the only one...


artist who is STFU pirate bride???

Has anyone figured out if this thread is for real??? :confused:

[JamBray]

Nutella is the best! I sure hope my love of chocolate never leaves me.

[LyLMyssChaos]

Pregnant or not, how could anyone NOT like chocolate? (I think that should autmatically make you a "nutjob"!:) )

The only time I like chocolate IS when I'm pregnant! LOL :p
And playing nice is WAY overrated!!! I enjoy being a heartless greedy racist sexist bigoted warmongering homophobe! ;)

[artist]

OMG, me either! I thought I was the only one...


artist who is STFU pirate bride???

Has anyone figured out if this thread is for real??? :confused:

Um, if anyone seriously does not know who "STFU pirate bride" is, it's probably best if you PM someone. I don't want Katy or Gayle or someone coming here and scolding me! If you need a hint though, think back to WC (if you ever participated in political discussions).

[batgirl]

Ok, I'm going to cautiously post this and hope I don't get flamed as much as the OP, but...

What is Nutella?

(hide's face and waits for the beating....)

[artist]

Oh, and if you read the lengthy quote of OP that I provided (something OP wrote in a different thread) you will realize this is NOT a real thread. OP was obviously trying to bait people. Again, if you read the quote, draw your own conclusions. Would a "real" Communist be against universal healtcare and bash unions? I think not!

[artist]

http://www.bulkcarrier.de/media/nutella.jpg

[greenbunny]

What is Nutella?

It's a chocolate/hazelnut spread in a jar. I've never had it, but according to everyone it's as addictive as pocky.

[artist]

And playing nice is WAY overrated!!! I enjoy being a heartless greedy racist sexist bigoted warmongering homophobe! ;)

LMAO!

[lml41981]

Ok, I'm going to cautiously post this and hope I don't get flamed as much as the OP, but...

What is Nutella?

(hide's face and waits for the beating....)
Have you ever had Ferrero Rocher? If so, imagine an entire jar of that - only totally creamy. It is truly Heaven on Earth.

[wendalah]

I think Nutella is freaking disgusting!

[artist]

History

Nutella®, in its original form, was first created in the 1940s by Mr. Pietro Ferrero, a pastry maker and founder of the Ferrero company. At the time, cocoa was in short supply because of rationing due to World War II, so chocolate was very limited.

So Mr. Ferrero used hazelnuts, which are plentiful in the Piedmont region of Italy (northwest), to extend the chocolate supply.

The original version of Nutella® spread was called "pasta gianduja," pasta which means paste, and "gianduja" which is the name of a carnival character famous to the region, a character that can be found in the first advertisements for the product. This original form of Nutella was actually made in loaves and wrapped in tinfoil, so it could be sliced and placed on bread for mothers to make sandwiches for their children. But many children, as you could imagine, would throw away the bread and only eat the pasta
gianduja! So Mr. Ferrero altered the product into a paste that came in a jar, so could be spread on the bread. This then became known as "supercrema gianduja," because it was a spread-able version of the gianduja. "Supecrema
gianduja" was eventually renamed "Nutella" in 1964, with the origin of the word being "nut" and the "ella" giving it a soft ending.

The early version of Nutella® spread was received very well once introduced, since it was a much more inexpensive way for people to enjoy something that tasted so good…a kilo of chocolate at the time was 6 times the cost of a kilo of pasta gianduja. So Nutella® was a product that everyone could, and did, enjoy. The product became so popular that Italian food stores started a ervice called "The Smearing". Children could go to their local food store with a slice of bread for a "smear" of "supercrema gianduja."

Nutella was first imported from Italy into the U.S over 20 years ago, in 1983, mainly in the Northeastern part of the country. The popularity of Nutella grew
steadily over the next 10 years, and demand became so strong that the Ferrero company decided to build a plant in the U.S., in Somerset, NJ. Since then, Nutella has been sold in the peanut butter aisles in grocery stores,
warehouse clubs and mass merchandisers all across
the United States.

Nutella is marketed in over 75 countries across the globe, and outsells all brands of peanut butter combined worldwide!



I first tried it in Europe.

[lawyergirl25]

I think Nutella is freaking disgusting!
THANK YOU! Finally!

[chrisinluv]

Just so the Nutella doesn't come from a Commie state. Or when we become our perfect commie state, just so the Nutella doesn't come from the democratic state. I can get reeeeeal funny about where my vittles come from.

[artist]

DH thinks it's gross but I like it!

[artist]

I like "freedom-food"!

[pocket]

FTR, I don't like tapioca. Bleh!

Gasp! Sacrilicious!

[wendalah]

Tapioca isn't my fave either, but I'd take a vat of it over Nutella.

[pocket]

i'll be honest - i could eat a huge bowl of tapioca and nutella and love every bite. i like anything squishy.

[artist]

I am such a Commie, I thought I'd share some "freedom food" with all of you. Please pass it around so everyone gets an equal amount!

http://www.npr.org/programs/morning/features/2005/apr/whyeat/fries200.jpg

http://wine.in-france.org.uk/images/wine-glass.jpg

[wendalah]

OK, fries and wine. Now we are talking things I can get into. F all that sweet stuff. Gimme the salt and booze.

[artist]

Yeah. Next time you order a glass of wine, I dare you to ask if you can get fries with that!

[curlyjr]

I hate tapioca and nutella!! I love money though!! Greed is good!!

[jnettie]

Just so the Nutella doesn't come from a Commie state. Or when we become our perfect commie state, just so the Nutella doesn't come from the democratic state. I can get reeeeeal funny about where my vittles come from.
Well, WWII Italy...that makes Nutella Facist food!

[MLA]

Count me among the nutella-tapioca-hating-commies.

Oh, and I remember that "Cats are filthy, and their owners are disgusting" thread. It was ridiculous, but in the OP's defense, she did come back into that thread and apologize for being a moron.

Well, WWII Italy...that makes Nutella Facist food!
Actually, I think that makes it fascist -- hmm . . .

[pocket]

but in the OP's defense, she did come back into that thread and apologize for being a moron....

do i dare to dream? op? any apologies forthcoming? of course insulting all owners of filthy nasty beastly cats is much worse than making a snide joke that bombs. so maybe no need to apologize this time.

[artist]

If she does ever come back here, I so want to be apologized to first! (Afterall, I wrote a very sincere thing back. Then again, maybe she'll insist I need to apologize for calling her an [the bad word I have now edited out].)

If she has ever apologized for anything, she ain't pirate bride!

Ironically though, she kind of did make us all "get along" and find unity in the political forum which is pretty funny! I doubt that was her goal though.

[MLA]

do i dare to dream? op? any apologies forthcoming? of course insulting all owners of filthy nasty beastly cats is much worse than making a snide joke that bombs. so maybe no need to apologize this time.

Yeah, I think the fact that the thread has turned into an "I hate nutella," "I love nutella" discussion has probably pretty much put her in her place. No need for her to apologize this time -- except maybe to Artist, who's good-natured willingness to discuss and learn led her astray. Artist -- never trust anyone from Orange County*

*Before I get flamed, I'm really only kidding. I've known reasonable and nice people from Orange County, and I'm addicted to "The O.C." ;)

[artist]

Yeah, I think the fact that the thread has turned into an "I hate nutella," "I love nutella" discussion has probably pretty much put her in her place. No need for her to apologize this time -- except maybe to Artist, who's good-natured willingness to discuss and learned led her astray. Artist -- never trust anyone from Orange County*

*Before I get flamed, I'm really only kidding. I've known reasonable and nice people from Orange County, and I'm addicted to "The O.C." ;)

:D

My sister and BIL lived there once!

[jnettie]

Damn! I always was bad at spelling!

[villanelle75]

Oh yes...fascist food. Wasn't there a whole documentary on that, I think it was called "Super Size me".

[jnettie]

Shall I go back and correct it! Really, I love Nutella, I swear! I was just trying to be funny. Really, I didn't mean to mispell fascist! You all knew what I ment, right?

*sulking in the corner*

[MLA]

Shall I go back and correct it! Really, I love Nutella, I swear! I was just trying to be funny. Really, I didn't mean to mispell fascist! You all knew what I ment, right?

*sulking in the corner*

OMG! I totally misread your post. I thought you said it was "communist" food. I wasn't correcting your spelling, just pointing out that it was fascist food, so I still can be a commie even though I hate nutella. I'm the idiot in this scenario. Sorry!

[Rositabean]

Ironically though, she kind of did make us all "get along" and find unity in the political forum which is pretty funny! I doubt that was her goal though.

Actually I was being moderately facetious. I only recently discovered the news and politics section of CC and was kind of saddened when most of the potentially interesting topics ended up going like this:

OP: here is an interesting political issue
LMC (or other conservative poster): here is what I think
Other liberal posters: You are an idiot LMC. Everything you say is pointless. We are right and you are wrong.

Anyways, this just seemed like a very hostile and bizarre pattern and I wondered if extreme liberalism would be as harshly dealt with or more warmly welcomed than extreme conservatism.

Since I have already been written off as an a-hole because of where I live and because I vented about cats in another thread (which I did apologize for since I wasn't trying to be mean to people's pets) no one BUT LMC actually gave any kind of discussion type response.

I am not a communist or socialist, but I do think that their ideals align with what many people have proposed in other discussions on this board. I am not sure why I thought anyone would be civil and maybe see the parallels between Democratic and socialist/communist platforms...in terms of ideals. What is the proper balance of liberalism?

I guess anything political cannot be discussed on this board without hostility and name calling unless it is about a topic as benign as Nutella. I am glad for the momentary nutella unity.

[MLA]

no one BUT LMC actually gave any kind of discussion type response.

But were you really looking for discussion? I thought your OP and your following posts were pretty clearly making fun of liberals and calling them commies. At least that's how it read to me. And I didn't even remember you as the "cat hater" when I first read your posts, so I wasn't coming into it with any sort of bias against you.

most of the potentially interesting topics ended up going like this:

OP: here is an interesting political issue
LMC (or other conservative poster): here is what I think
Other liberal posters: You are an idiot LMC. Everything you say is pointless. We are right and you are wrong.

See, I don't see it that way. This is how I see these threads as usually going:

OP: Here is a controversial political issue that will likely stir the pot
LMC or other conservative (CP): Here's what I think about the issue
Other Posters: Here's what I think. It's different from what you think, CP. Why do you believe what you do?
CP: I think what I do because it's what I believe. It's just true
Other Posters: Here are some facts that may very well disprove what you believe, CP.
CP: Here's a link to a right-wing conservative website to prove that what I believe is true
Other Posters: Well, here are all of the reasons that the website you pointed us to is biased and just plain incorrect. Now do you think you might be able to reconsider your opinion?
CP: I'll never reconsider my opinion.
Other Posters: But why?
CP: Because it's what I believe
Other Posters: But it's not based in fact
CP: But it's what I believe and no matter what you say I won't change my mind
ad nauseum

[Delta]

Rosita - I found your post pretty funny! And was kinda surprised at the hostility to what you were proposing, but I guess people were holding the cat thread against you. ;)

[jnettie]

MLA, that's ok! My bad spelling gets me in trouble often!

[pocket]

If you’re a newbie to news and politics, then I forgive you. But just a thought – if you have something to say in rebuttal to a point, it’s just better to say it in the thread. If you start a sarcastic thread and then claim you intended actual debate, that’s passive-aggressive.

[wendalah]

Since I have already been written off as an a-hole because of where I live

Lay off the OC, you mothas! I'd live there if I had enough money!

[Rositabean]

I thought your OP and your following posts were pretty clearly making fun of liberals and calling them commies.

MLA Your analysis of the posting patterns really does ring true. THAT is why some of these threads leave me feeling nauseated!

The thing is I don't see why even calling someone a commie WOULD be in any way derogatory. Per the party website their tagline is "fight for peace, equality, democracy and socialism." That sounds like it meshes well with some ideas I read on this board. I actually spent a little time reading their many essays on their website and much of it sounds like it could have been penned by left leaning posters here. I find it very interesting.

As far a failed communist regimes are concerned, none have really met the ideals of communism mainly because the leaders of the many movements did end up being "the state" and quite repressive due to their own hunger for power.

If left leaning Americans were willing to give up their personal property and the system could be set up so that one person wouldn't end up as a power hungry leader, it seems that communism would very well give the peace and equality that many are seeking.

And as far as Orange County goes, "Per the 2000 Census, the Hispanic or Latino population is 30.76% of the general population in Orange County." (oc almanac). The city I was born in and live in has more than 50% non-native English speakers/people born in other countries. I myself am a Latina and did speak Spanish before English. I would appreciate it if (general) you would refrain from stereotyping OC residents. We are more diverse than you think.

[MLA]

MLA Your analysis of the posting patterns really does ring true. THAT is why some of these threads leave me feeling nauseated!

The thing is I don't see why even calling someone a commie WOULD be in any way derogatory. Per the party website their tagline is "fight for peace, equality, democracy and socialism." That sounds like it meshes well with some ideas I read on this board. I actually spent a little time reading their many essays on their website and much of it sounds like it could have been penned by left leaning posters here. I find it very interesting.

As far a failed communist regimes are concerned, none have really met the ideals of communism mainly because the leaders of the many movements did end up being "the state" and quite repressive due to their own hunger for power.

If left leaning Americans were willing to give up their personal property and the system could be set up so that one person wouldn't end up as a power hungry leader, it seems that communism would very well give the peace and equality that many are seeking.

And as far as Orange County goes, "Per the 2000 Census, the Hispanic or Latino population is 30.76% of the general population in Orange County." (oc almanac). The city I was born in and live in has more than 50% non-native English speakers/people born in other countries. I myself am a Latina and did speak Spanish before English. I would appreciate it if (general) you would refrain from stereotyping OC residents. We are more diverse than you think.


I agree that communism sounds great, but I guess I don't have enough faith in human nature to believe it could ever happen on a large scale. There will always be power-hungry asses out there trying to take advantage. Anyway, your posts really didn't make me think you wanted to discuss the concept and they seemed pretty full of snark. Maybe I was reading more into it than I should have.

As far as the O.C. (great episode tonight, by the way ;)), you're absolutely right about its diversity, hence the asterisk next to my OC comment.

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

MLAThe thing is I don't see why even calling someone a commie WOULD be in any way derogatory. Per the party website their tagline is "fight for peace, equality, democracy and socialism." That sounds like it meshes well with some ideas I read on this board. I actually spent a little time reading their many essays on their website and much of it sounds like it could have been penned by left leaning posters here. I find it very interesting.
Personally, it sounds to me like you're slowly backing away from something that was absolutely intended as an insult. If I started a thread saying, "hey, fascism sounds like a way of life that would play well with a number of people here, considering a lot of the posts I've read lately." would you expect anyone to take that as anything other than an insult?

[trefoil]

To start a thread pretending to espouse beliefs that you don't hold and then complain about the lack of civil discourse about the parallels of the communist platform and the Democrat platform is absurd. People, generally, aren't going to waste their time with thoughtful responses to an obviously fake original post.

[jnettie]

I'm just upset that, as a commie, I can't eat Nutella anymore because it was made by fascists.

[sue-bert]

I only recently discovered the news and politics section of CC and was kind of saddened when most of the potentially interesting topics ended up going like this:

OP: here is an interesting political issue
LMC (or other conservative poster): here is what I think
Other liberal posters: You are an idiot LMC. Everything you say is pointless. We are right and you are wrong.


Yup.

Also, when I read posts containing personal attacks (e.g., calling someone an a-hole), my assumption is that the poster has no cohesive rebuttal and has resorted to personal attacks out of frustration.

s-b

[sue-bert]

Oh, and don't forget avoidance tactic #2: The filibuster approach (avoidance tactic of choice for those passive-aggressive CCers):

Get together with like-minded buddies and derail thread by posting pages of nonsense about some random, irrelevant, and light-hearted topic, periodically interjecting snarky insults directed towards LMC or other conservative poster.

[curlyjr]

I love this thread! I have to say, even though I am a total liberal (shocker I know) I feel like i could go have a cappuccino and some chocolate with Lylmisschaos right now. I guess we're all not that divided after all.

[SiValleySteph]

I aplogize for my Orange County comment. It was tounge-in-cheek.

[Rositabean]

LittleFredP Calling someone a facist IS an insult because facists were entirely repressive to a violent degree. Calling someone a communist (which I didn't do btw) while providing links to a homepage to detail specifically that I was referring to modern American communism and not prior Communist regimes IS NOT an insult unless you have some kind of problem with communism.

If you (general) visit http://www.cpusa.org/article/articleview/207/1/11/ and read their introductory literature and then feel that it is NOT in line with the flavor of the discussions around here, fine. It struck ME as remarkably similar to liberal style discussions of late and that is why I brought it up.

I am not a communist and am not trying to convert anyone but I think this neglected and misunderstood party merits consideration. "Pretending" to be a communist was the only part of my facetiousness.

SVS Don't you know you aren't allowed to be tongue in cheek in this forum? If you say anything that isn't dead serious or try to use absurdity in any way you will greatly anger the posters. Never joke! Ever! If you ever joke you are a *#%^*$@!!!! ALWAYS be SERIOUS about EVERYTHING! Rant! Rant! Rant....

[gayle]

:D

What if it's a reincarnation of STFU pirate bride?
OMG, I seriously hope that is not the case....

[lawyerlee]

I am not a communist and am not trying to convert anyone but I think this neglected and misunderstood party merits consideration. "Pretending" to be a communist was the only part of my facetiousness.

SVS Don't you know you aren't allowed to be tongue in cheek in this forum? If you say anything that isn't dead serious or try to use absurdity in any way you will greatly anger the posters. Never joke! Ever! If you ever joke you are a *#%^*$@!!!! ALWAYS be SERIOUS about EVERYTHING! Rant! Rant! Rant....
Lame.

[IrisHope]

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Castro...............

[msnicolea]

I am not a communist and am not trying to convert anyone but I think this neglected and misunderstood party merits consideration. "Pretending" to be a communist was the only part of my facetiousness.

Give me a break. You know exactly what you are doing and why. Shall I pull quotes from other threads that clearly show you have absolutely no affinity for the Communist Party? You are trying to imply that the liberal members of this board are un-american--and honestly, you're not doing a very impressive (or even humorous) job of it. I mean, at the very least, if you can't be insightful or articulate, be funny.

[LyLMyssChaos]

I love this thread! I have to say, even though I am a total liberal (shocker I know) I feel like i could go have a cappuccino and some chocolate with Lylmisschaos right now. I guess we're all not that divided after all.

I'm up for the chocolate, but I'll skip on the cappuccino(ya know how us Mormons are about that stuff! ;) ) and really, if you catch me in other places (besides politics) I'm really not that bad! *sniff, sniff* Gosh, conservatives have feelings too! :)


ETA: Oh and I don't think that Rositabean is the person of which you suspect her to be!

[gayle]

LyllMyss, you could have a decaf cappucino :)

[LyLMyssChaos]

LyllMyss, you could have a decaf cappucino :)

LOL Actually, it's not the caffeine we are supposed to avoid, it's the coffee, but I did discover something the other day at Speedway that would be a perfect substitute, it's called a "Steamer" it's basically frothy flavored warm milk, so it's pretty much the same thing without the coffee part. Maybe I'll just have to bring my own! ;)

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

LittleFredP Calling someone a facist IS an insult because facists were entirely repressive to a violent degree. Calling someone a communist (which I didn't do btw) while providing links to a homepage to detail specifically that I was referring to modern American communism and not prior Communist regimes IS NOT an insult unless you have some kind of problem with communism.
There's this place called China, you might have heard of, and pretty close by is a lovely country by the name of North Korea.

Tell me again that calling someone a communist isn't an insult today.

[msnicolea]

Yeah--I know when Joseph McCarthy called people "commies" he meant it as a term of endearment!

[LyLMyssChaos]

There's this place called China, you might have heard of...

Ya know? Being an American in China isn't entirely bad. My FIL worked there for GM for several years for months at a time, and let me tell ya, he got some GOOD deals on some stuff! Those Chinese people like to barter, and when they see an American, they think they can pull a fast one, but really, they don't quite understand how their money compares to ours! ;) :p

[gayle]

In all seriousness. Why do some people equate liberalism with communism? It happened to a HUGE, and dangerous degree in the 50's (good ol Joe McCarthy and the Red scare) and I would have thought we'd have learned our lesson from that disaster.

[msnicolea]

Well, being Chinese in China isn't quite that peachy, unless, of course, you think freedom of the speech, press, and assembly are antiquated and over-rated?

[msnicolea]

In all seriousness. Why do some people equate liberalism with communism? It happened to a HUGE, and dangerous degree in the 50's (good ol Joe McCarthy and the Red scare) and I would have thought we'd have learned our lesson from that disaster.

In my experience, G, I find that the people who do this tend to be uneducated and unable to present rational, thoughtful arguments, so instead they invoke buzz words and hyperbole.

[chefker]

Sadly, I think we are headed back to the 50's in that respect.

Maybe not to the degree of paranoia that McCarthyism spurred, but still...it's starting to get frightening, when your loyalty as an American citizen can be called into question simply because you are a liberal.

[LyLMyssChaos]

Well, being Chinese in China isn't quite that peachy, unless, of course, you think freedom of the speech, press, and assembly are antiquated and over-rated?

Oh no, I agree, I wouldn't want to be Chinese in China, they have absolutely deplorable living conditions, and just, ugh, the stories my FIL told me once you get out of the "tourist" areas, just, an American wouldn't last a day!

[gayle]

Sadly, I think we are headed back to the 50's in that respect.

Maybe not to the degree of paranoia that McCarthyism spurred, but still...it's starting to get frightening, when your loyalty as an American citizen can be called into question simply because you are a liberal.


I completely agree, and it scares the crap outta me. So many people's lives and careers were ruined during that time, because of nothing more than judgement and fear.

Honestly, I do think we have a climate in this country right now where the same sort of thing happening is a very real and alarming possibility.

[batgirl]

I completely agree, and it scares the crap outta me. So many people's lives and careers were ruined during that time, because of nothing more than judgement and fear.

Honestly, I do think we have a climate in this country right now where the same sort of thing happening is a very real and alarming possibility.

Boy, I totally agree. We live in a society where the highest elected politicians don't even believe in evolution or global warming, but they are considered the "intelligent" ones? Trying to get "intelligent design" forced upon our children in science classes!... Forget communism, we are teetering on a theocracy.

[IrisHope]

Batgirl, teetering? I think we're just about there. I hope Jeb stays in Florida.

[greenbunny]

Sadly, I think we are headed back to the 50's in that respect.

Maybe not to the degree of paranoia that McCarthyism spurred, but still...it's starting to get frightening, when your loyalty as an American citizen can be called into question simply because you are a liberal.

I agree 100%. Science is being demonized into alchemy, and religion is being lauded as "the truth". It seems that all the literature I've read about Puritan times is coming to life. Why are we going backwards?

[Witty Username]

Give me a break. You know exactly what you are doing and why. Shall I pull quotes from other threads that clearly show you have absolutely no affinity for the Communist Party? You are trying to imply that the liberal members of this board are un-american--and honestly, you're not doing a very impressive (or even humorous) job of it. I mean, at the very least, if you can't be insightful or articulate, be funny.

I disagree, I really don't think she was trying to imply that the liberal members of this board are un-american. Though admittedly, I have no way of knowing that. She also never said she herself was a communist or that she believed that communism was the answer for her.

I knew right away that this thread was tongue and cheek and I agree it was pointless to start a thread on that premise. However, I think there are plenty of pointless threads but I don't go into them and call the OP an asshole for starting them. At least the original post actually contained some content even if it was baiting, sure beats "Is saddam hessein a terrorist" "ooops, I meant saddam hussien" can you delete my other post? procede to deleting the one with the correct spelling, then merge the one with the op having a conversation with herself into yet another thread on the same subject.

Rositabean should have posted this in the Universal Healthcare thread since that's obviously the that one sparked it. I think she's just mad because universal healthcare threatens HER bottom line. I do find it rather simplistic and insulting to equate universal heathcare with communism. I'm pretty sure that Canada would not be considered a communist country.

Nutella is great on pretzels, but I find that I eat too much of it at one time and then don't want it for another year or so.

[SiValleySteph]

Well, being Chinese in China isn't quite that peachy, unless, of course, you think freedom of the speech, press, and assembly are antiquated and over-rated?

As someone who has been to China and has family members (ILs) who are Chinese and live in China, I think they might take offense to this statement.

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

As someone who has been to China and has family members (ILs) who are Chinese and live in China, I think they might take offense to this statement.
So... Are you saying that there's no big problem in China with regard to freedom of speech, the press, and assembly?

[LyLMyssChaos]

At least the original post actually contained some content even if it was baiting, sure beats "Is saddam hessein a terrorist" "ooops, I meant saddam hussien" can you delete my other post? procede to deleting the one with the correct spelling, then merge the one with the op having a conversation with herself into yet another thread on the same subject.


Okay, seeing as how you have all but said that the Saddam Hussein thread that I started was pointless, if you had actually read it, I started it because someone asked me if I thought Saddam was a terrorist and why did I think that, so I started a thread about it, instead of derailing another thread. I have actually enjoyed the conversation that has occured there, and contrary to what you believe I was not "having a conversation with myself." There were a couple of different posters that were interested in and contributed to that thread and THAT was who I was having a "conversation with."

[Witty Username]

Okay, seeing as how you have all but said that the Saddam Hussein thread that I started was pointless, if you had actually read it, I started it because someone asked me if I thought Saddam was a terrorist and why did I think that, so I started a thread about it, instead of derailing another thread. "

LMC - I wasn't talking about the one you started. I was talking about the two others that someone else started.

[emmjay]

Those Chinese people like to barter, and when they see an American, they think they can pull a fast one, but really, they don't quite understand how their money compares to ours! ;) :p
What does this mean? :confused:

[batgirl]

LMC - I wasn't talking about the one you started. I was talking about the two others that someone else started.

Nevermind...

[IrisHope]

:-)

[pocket]

I mean, at the very least, if you can't be insightful or articulate, be funny.

awesome. please may i put this in my siggy?

[msnicolea]

As someone who has been to China and has family members (ILs) who are Chinese and live in China, I think they might take offense to this statement.

On what grounds? I am commenting on the Chinese government's systematic (DOCUMENTED) oppresion of its citizens, not on Chinese people who in my father's experience have been increibly warm, gracious, and wonderful. He loves it there--but he is saddened that civil liberties are not fully granted to the citizens.

[batgirl]

What does this mean? :confused:

Actually, I don't understand this comment either (big surprise I guess...)

We had better be careful... China is beginning to "own" more and more of the United States. I'd say they are doing just fine (financially speaking...)

[msnicolea]

awesome. please may i put this in my siggy?

Absolutely--I would be honored to be quoted by Pocket! :)

[LyLMyssChaos]

LMC - I wasn't talking about the one you started. I was talking about the two others that someone else started.


Oops...my bad.:o :o Sorry, I tend to get a little defensive sometimes!

[LyLMyssChaos]

What does this mean? :confused:


What it means is when you are bartering with them, they tend to think that they are getting more out of you than they are. In fact, my FIL on more than one occassion had to force vendors to accept more money than they were asking for because as they bartered, they were underpricing themselves so badly, it just, like one time, he had someone try to sell him genuine silk scarves for $1.00 American each. He had to explain to them that they could get MUCH more than that. They really didn't understand the exchange rate. The Chinese business man may understand, but your poor street vendor doesn't for the most part!

[SiValleySteph]

What it means is when you are bartering with them, they tend to think that they are getting more out of you than they are. In fact, my FIL on more than one occassion had to force vendors to accept more money than they were asking for because as they bartered, they were underpricing themselves so badly, it just, like one time, he had someone try to sell him genuine silk scarves for $1.00 American each. He had to explain to them that they could get MUCH more than that. They really didn't understand the exchange rate. The Chinese business man may understand, but your poor street vendor doesn't for the most part!

I think they do understand. I think that you don't understand that that genuine silk scarf probably cost them pennies.

[LyLMyssChaos]

I think they do understand. I think that you don't understand that that genuine silk scarf probably cost them pennies.

That is very much true. But that doesn't mean that when dealing with an American that they could get a much higher profit margin. I remember the story of one vendor that my FIL told me that he actually wanted to send his daughter back to America with my IL's because he was "so thankful" for my FIL pointing out how much more he could charge for things and still have people think he was getting a deal. Of course, we think he really just wanted to get his daughter to America.

[SiValleySteph]

On what grounds? I am commenting on the Chinese government's systematic (DOCUMENTED) oppresion of its citizens, not on Chinese people who in my father's experience have been increibly warm, gracious, and wonderful. He loves it there--but he is saddened that civil liberties are not fully granted to the citizens.

Oh I agree that the Chinese government has some serious problems, but I don't think it's right for us to say that life is not "peachy" if you are a Chinese citizen in China.

I thought I knew everything about how bad the government is in China and how bad communism is and all that then I happened to meet and marry my husband and found that what I thought was universal knowledge and experience is not the case.

[batgirl]

What it means is when you are bartering with them, they tend to think that they are getting more out of you than they are. In fact, my FIL on more than one occassion had to force vendors to accept more money than they were asking for because as they bartered, they were underpricing themselves so badly, it just, like one time, he had someone try to sell him genuine silk scarves for $1.00 American each. He had to explain to them that they could get MUCH more than that. They really didn't understand the exchange rate. The Chinese business man may understand, but your poor street vendor doesn't for the most part!

Boy, those chinese are sure stupid! Its no wonder that the US routinely scores so much better than them in math and science!*...:D

(*Of course we all know that China is always at the top and we are always at the bottom! Guess LMCs FIL is just way ahead of the curve!)

[msnicolea]

SiValleySteph--I definitely understand where you are coming from--and I don't know much about China beyond history and political science classes and my long-term involvment with Amnesty International, so I'm basing what I feel solely on the lack of freedom there. I'm sure there are millions of Chinese people who live happy, productive lives! This is just my outsider's perspective re: what I feel is appropriate in terms of government conduct!

[emmjay]

That is very much true. But that doesn't mean that when dealing with an American that they could get a much higher profit margin.
If you go to any country where the general costs of goods is less than the US, you are going to feel like you are getting an incredible deal when in reality you are paying 100x more than any local person would ever pay for an item. I think it's kind of patronizing to talk about these "poor street vendors" and to assume they don't know anything about what they are doing. In fact, even though your FIL was amazed at the bargains he found, most of the vendors probably thought he was foolishly throwing his money away.

[IrisHope]

Batgirl, why are you trying?

[batgirl]

Batgirl, why are you trying?

Yeah, I know, its just so freaking funny to think about! :)

[hockeybrat]

If you go to any country where the general costs of goods is less than the US, you are going to feel like you are getting an incredible deal when in reality you are paying 100x more than any local person would ever pay for an item. I think it's kind of patronizing to talk about these "poor street vendors" and to assume they don't know anything about what they are doing. In fact, even though your FIL was amazed at the bargains he found, most of the vendors probably thought he was foolishly throwing his money away.


Those "poor street vendors" were probably laughing at the FIL after he left for paying so much.

[wine_o_girlie]

Perhaps we should try to get LMC's FIL in some sort of government position where we negotiates trade deals for us with other countries since he is so adept at bartering?

[LyLMyssChaos]

Okay, that's enough. I've put up with the jokes long enough, you obviously were missing what I'm trying to say, so just let it drop.

And FWIW...my FIL worked in China for about 7 years for about 6 months at a time, so I'm fairly sure he was familiar with what things cost, and what he was doing, but it doesn't matter. People will be immature and make fun of what I say regardless.

[emmjay]

I do understand what you were saying - the vendors could charge more to Americans because the Americans would still consider it a bargain, even though to the Chinese person it would be way too much.

My problem with your comments is that you are referring to the "poor vendors" and how they "don't understand the exchange rate" with little winky-faces. It's condescending and rude.

Not to mention that I don't understand why you think these CHINESE vendors should conduct their business based on what things cost in the US. Should Chinese tourists to the US pay .25 for a liter of beer because that's what it costs in China? You are making fun of these poor ignorant Chinese people for not structuring their businesses around the US economy, and meanwhile you clearly don't know anything about theirs.

And, FWIW, I know people who have lived in other parts of Asia for years and they still pay too much for everything. Especially when they are there working for Western companies.

[LyLMyssChaos]

I do understand what you were saying - the vendors could charge more to Americans because the Americans would still consider it a bargain, even though to the Chinese person it would be way too much.

My problem with your comments is that you are referring to the "poor vendors" and how they "don't understand the exchange rate" with little winky-faces. It's condescending and rude.


I just meant these specific vendors, I shouldn't have generalized. These were not well educated chinese business people. These were people that, goodness, I wish I knew how to explain it, but they really were naive and poor. My FIL and his associates really felt sorry for them.

[Asha]

i kind of get where LMC is going at. Chinese products are incredibly inexpensive even here in the U.S., and they are cheap bc they have incredibly inexpensive labor force. some labor is even free because they use imprisoned workers for labor some of whom were imprisoned for their religious beliefs. by buying these incredibly cheap goods, we are supporting labor abuse. i know in some countries the street vendors are not very high on the social economic status scale. if in fact, they tried to get a fairer price for their goods from wealthy tourists perhaps they could enjoy a more comfortable lifestyle.

[LyLMyssChaos]

Thank you rebjc!! That's what I was trying to say! :)

[Asha]

i hear a lot about it from my mother bc she has done extensive research on the issue, and she refuses to buy chinese made products because of this. she especially doesn't promote buying christmas decorations from there bc of religious persecution.

[artist]

Actually I was being moderately facetious. I only recently discovered the news and politics section of CC and was kind of saddened when most of the potentially interesting topics ended up going like this:

OP: here is an interesting political issue
LMC (or other conservative poster): here is what I think
Other liberal posters: You are an idiot LMC. Everything you say is pointless. We are right and you are wrong.


Actually, I have tried to stick up for LMC. I don't agree with her politically, but I do think it's pointless to attack her for having different beliefs. That's not to say her views can't be challenged in a debate thread, but it is wrong to attack her personally.


Since I have already been written off as an a-hole because of where I live and because I vented about cats in another thread (which I did apologize for since I wasn't trying to be mean to people's pets) no one BUT LMC actually gave any kind of discussion type response.

First of all, I do apologize for calling you that. I have edited those posts. With regard to the other thread, I don't believe I ever read it, so I can't really comment on it. However, I am sure you do realize that in THIS thread, I actually thought you were serious and so I put some thought into my initial post. I was pretty annoyed to find out you were not for real. I also wasn't sure initially whether or not you were a real CC member since I did not recognize your name and the first time I "saw" you was this totally "out there" thread about Communism.

Anyway, so far this is as far as I've read in the thread, but before I continued reading it, I did want to respond to you. I hope you can understand why I was annoyed, but I do apologize for calling you a name yesterday!

[LyLMyssChaos]

Actually, I have tried to stick up for LMC. I don't agree with her politically, but I do think it's pointless to attack her for having different beliefs. That's not to say her views can't be challenged in a debate thread, but it is wrong to attack her personally.


And I very much appreciate your keeping our debates and challenges to the issue/topic at hand and not making it personal. I don't think it makes anything productive for either side to make personal attacks. :)

[artist]

LOL Actually, it's not the caffeine we are supposed to avoid, it's the coffee, but I did discover something the other day at Speedway that would be a perfect substitute, it's called a "Steamer" it's basically frothy flavored warm milk, so it's pretty much the same thing without the coffee part. Maybe I'll just have to bring my own! ;)


Oh gosh! I would just about die without coffee! I had a good friend in HS who was Mormon, and I always felt bad if I had a birthday party or something because while everyone else was drinking Coke or something, she could have...juice, milk, water? (Actually, milk, juice, and water are good but I felt bad thinking she might feel left out or something. That and I'd always forget and say, "Do you want a pop...er, I mean a beverage?"

[artist]

Okay, seeing as how you have all but said that the Saddam Hussein thread that I started was pointless, if you had actually read it, I started it because someone asked me if I thought Saddam was a terrorist and why did I think that, so I started a thread about it, instead of derailing another thread. I have actually enjoyed the conversation that has occured there, and contrary to what you believe I was not "having a conversation with myself." There were a couple of different posters that were interested in and contributed to that thread and THAT was who I was having a "conversation with."

True. I was one of the people for example having a conversation with LMC. And as for the thread IrisHope started, did it ever occur to you that perhaps the two of them started their threads at the same time before they realized the other person started a similar one? (LMC, IrisHope, myself, and probably others were in a different thread. I think LMC is right about why either of those other two threads were started...to stop the other one from getting derailed.)

[LyLMyssChaos]

Oh gosh! I would just about die without coffee! I had a good friend in HS who was Mormon, and I always felt bad if I had a birthday party or something because while everyone else was drinking Coke or something, she could have...juice, milk, water? (Actually, milk, juice, and water are good but I felt bad thinking she might feel left out or something. That and I'd always forget and say, "Do you want a pop...er, I mean a beverage?"

Believe me, it was NOT an easy adjustment. That was one thing that I had to struggle with slightly, but I'm really not supposed to have it as I had an issue with a caffeine overdose when I was 19 (too many Magnum 357's, too much Mountain Dew, and too much cappucino) but let me tell ya, there are times when I so would love to have some! ;)

[Asha]

lmc - is that tom cruise?

[Rositabean]

Calling someone a communist is NOT the same as calling someone un-American. WTH is "un-American" supposed to mean anyway? Do any of you have a monopoly on its definition? "American" is not a term with a static and unchanging meaning. I can assure you that the communist Americans consider themselves American.

I still maintain it is not an insult. I at NO point referenced Communist States, only the CONCEPT of communism and socialism. Do you understand that there is a DIFFERENCE between communism as an ideal/philosophy and Communist States which may have been BASED originally on communist principles but became STATE that absolutely DO NOT fit the whole ideal of communism as STATELESS? Apparently some of you are having problems with this concept and I am sorry that you cannot differentiate between Cuban government, Chinese government, N. Korean government and the as of yet not realized CONCEPT of a truly communist society. I guess you missed that day in history class if you even took history.

I was a history major (double w/ biology) with a concentration in Latin American History and History of Gender and Sexuality. I did that at a SUPER liberal college in a SUPER liberal college town and my history profs were themselves SUPER liberal for the most part. One Latin American History prof LOVED worker/class struggle and may as well have been a communist himself due to his deep love for the working class and from him I did not learn that socialism/communism as concepts were NEGATIVE or INSULTING. I quickly learned to write my papers for his classes from the PRO-WORKER/LOW SES standpoint because he LOVED it. If I start a thread or make an individual post "supporting" this view I don't see how it is being fake, it is an effort to see things from another perspective. I am sorry if your own narrow minds prevent you from ever trying to see things from another side. I have never (on this board) identified with a particular political party or bent, you have made your own assumptions to suit and rationalize your attacks of me. The only thing I have said is that I am not a communist.

As far as Universal Healthcare is concerned, please step off the high horse and drop the holier than thou attitude. Of course I am concerned about my bottom line. Everyone is. WTH do you think UNIONS sole purpose for existence is about? It is about protecting THEIR bottom line. Outside of Progressive era struggles to improve atrocious working conditions, unions, at least modern ones, exist to secure optimal wages and benefits for members. Teachers (and others) don't strike for fun.. .they strike to increase their salaries. Don't act as if it is unusual or callous to care about the well being and future of one's profession.

Re: humor. Again, I didn't get the memo that there is a set standard for humor and that one group has a monopoly on what is considered funny. There will always be some people that "get it" and some that don't.

[artist]

Could you please acknowledge my post Rositabean? I went out of my way to apologize to you and you not only are not responding to that, but you haven't said anything to me, like, "Sorry artist that you thought my first post was serious and then you wrote a serious post in response".

[Asha]

i believe she thinks her first post was serious.

[pocket]

all caps, btw, is shouting.

[LyLMyssChaos]

lmc - is that tom cruise?

I don't believe so, I just thought the guy banging his head on the wall was funny. ;)

[Rositabean]

Could you please acknowledge my post Rositabean? I went out of my way to apologize to you and you not only are not responding to that, but you haven't said anything to me, like, "Sorry artist that you thought my first post was serious and then you wrote a serious post in response".

Sorry I didn't get to respond to you yet. I had to cut my post short because duty called. I appreciate that you apologized for name calling. I am sorry that you felt that you wasted your time authoring a thoughtful response. I actually would have liked to hear what you had to say.

Unfortunately everyone had such a negative visceral response to the "c" word that any and all hopes to discuss just fizzled away.

My post was mostly serious and partly tongue in cheek...not in a "you are un-American!" kind of way but in a "what if we took our political ideas to extreme absurdity" kind of way.

pocket

My bad. I was trying to emphasize, not yell. Is bold or underlining better?

Maybe this thread needs to be redirected or a new thread (omitting the reviled "c" word) started to discuss.

How far should equality go? Should we aspire to be a classless society or is class stratification a necessary evil. Is it fair for an unskilled laborer to earn as much (in wages and benefits) and a skilled professional? Should we subsidize the lives of those who can't become proficient in some skill or who refuse to? Is there a basic equality that all should share and then some can strive for and achieve more while others remain at a lower but still acceptable level? I would like to know what you think.

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

Calling someone a communist is NOT the same as calling someone un-American. WTH is "un-American" supposed to mean anyway? Do any of you have a monopoly on its definition? "American" is not a term with a static and unchanging meaning. I can assure you that the communist Americans consider themselves American.

I still maintain it is not an insult. I at NO point referenced Communist States, only the CONCEPT of communism and socialism. Do you understand that there is a DIFFERENCE between communism as an ideal/philosophy and Communist States which may have been BASED originally on communist principles but became STATE that absolutely DO NOT fit the whole ideal of communism as STATELESS? Apparently some of you are having problems with this concept and I am sorry that you cannot differentiate between Cuban government, Chinese government, N. Korean government and the as oid faf yet not realized CONCEPT of a truly communist society. I guess you missed that day in history class if you even took history.
Look, you acknowledged that calling someone a fascist can be interpreted as an insult, why is it that you can't acknowledge that it's just as easy to take "communist" as an insult? You said fascists have been known for violently oppressing their people. Since the same is true for communists as well, what's the difference?

And while we're on the topic of insults... I suppose next you're going to say that by "I guess you missed that day in history class if you even took history," you were trying to be sensitive to the fact that people might have different education levels, huh?

[jnettie]

SiValleySteph - You know, I think you're Chinese ILs have had a very different experience with China than my Chinese ILs. On the one hand, you're right, things are looking up for China. But if you are deamed in any way important to the government, they clamp down on you, hard!

DH's Grand Uncle was a coach on the Chinese National Volleyball team in the 70s. While other members of DH's family were able to leave (they escaped to Hong Kong during the Cultural Revolution), he was not allowed to leave at all, except to go whereever the Volleyball team went. Even when his sister died, he wasn't allowed to come to America to go to her funeral. He was finally able to quit coaching, became a cook, and then only after 10 years did they allow him to leave the country.

FYI on the street vendors in China: While technically not illegal there, most of what you buy would be illegal here. People are paid horrible low there, and often the workers in the factories steal peices of machinery, fabrics, logos, etc. to make knock offs on their own time. They sell them on the streets for fractions of what these same companies will sell them for in America...and it's practically the same thing. Only, the companies aren't getting any money, the street vendor or whoever is making the knock offs is.

Wow, how did we get on Chinese street vendors!

Whatever anyone says, you still aren't allowed to speak out against the government in China, and there are still a ridiculous amount of crimes that are capitol crimes...I believe you can be executed if you are a prostitute. So, things are fine there as long as you don't rock the boat and don't break any laws. And as long as you have enough money to pay off your doctor so you can get the good medicine. (I have a lovely story about my SIL and a Chinese hospital that I'll save for another day.)

[miel]

Darn! I'm a total commie and I can't believe I missed this thread.

I should modify that: The communists who drive me crazy are the orthodox Marxists. They treat it like a religion. They are dogmatic. That ends in totalitarianism. I think true communism should be open ended and flexible, based on some very basic principles, but changing where human needs suggest a change is needed. Thus, I'm not really a 'communist' in the typical sense. I want complete economic, social and political equality and I want to eliminate corporations and I want workers to own the means of production. I'm more like a socialist.

Apparently, there were some arguments but I'm too lazy to read the thread so I'll just say for now--Yay communism.

[msnicolea]

Calling someone a communist IS an insult when that's the intent, when people who don't understand what it mean to be "communist" use the term to imply anti-american activity (a la McCarthy), then it IS an insult. In my book it's the same thing as calling someon "gay" in a derogatory manner--there is nothing wrong with being gay or communist or even a gay communist--but the speaker's intent cannot be ignored.

And I stand by my original post--this thread wasn't meant for "educational" purposes. Note the sarcasm here:

The answer to all the CC woes lies in communism.

and here:

That sounds dreamy! Classless and stateless. Everyone sharing. We can all hold hands and sing kumbaya.

Give me a break--at least OWN what you're trying to do.

[Asha]

How far should equality go? Should we aspire to be a classless society or is class stratification a necessary evil. Is it fair for an unskilled laborer to earn as much (in wages and benefits) and a skilled professional? Should we subsidize the lives of those who can't become proficient in some skill or who refuse to? Is there a basic equality that all should share and then some can strive for and achieve more while others remain at a lower but still acceptable level? I would like to know what you think.

these are interesting questions. i do hope you seriously intend to want to hear our answers. i think i am more in the middle of the spectrum. i do hate a lot of things about capitalism like the fact that huge corporations pay less towards taxes than middle class americans. in fact, on a cnn report it was reported that about half of all successful corporartion pay virtually nothing in taxes. i also hate the fact that a group of people will always be struggling to make ends meet despite working hard. i also hate how materialistic our society has become where we feel like we "need" non essential things and many people have lost sight of the truly important things in life.

though, there are things that i believe are good about capitalism. i do believe that communism would thwart ingenuity and hard work. also, i do feel that there should be some sort of reward for hard work and creativity. also, i do feel that some jobs are more important than others and require more education and the people that pursue those options should be monetarily rewarded. for instance, i highly doubt many people would pursue a medical degree if they knew they would making the same amount of money as most nurses. though, it is difficult to say which jobs are more important than others because everyone's value system is different and some seemingly unimportant jobs really do provide an essential and valuable service to the greater community.

there are basic services that i think should every citizen should have access to regardless of their economic status. i believe that all citizens should have access to health care. for the safety of others, i do believe that all people should have basic housing and food needs met. it serves no one any good to have masses starving people wandering the streets. i think all children have the right to a good education, and i don't think the quality of education a child receives should be based on the property tax revenues of their neighborhoods. also, i believe everyone has the right to feel safe when they walk in their own neighborhood.

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

Give me a break--at least OWN what you're trying to do.
Exactly!

[jnettie]

Are we making this a serious conversation now? Because Miel said:
The communists who drive me crazy are the orthodox Marxists. They treat it like a religion.
That is totally on the nose for me! The way Communisim has been applied to government has always been bad. We had a Maoist Communist come talk to my HS Hummanities class - that guy was a loon! He kept talking about how great Mao was - you know, they guy who told children to turn in their teachers and parents and put Buddhists and Muslims in jail or executed them? That Mao?

And I also agree with Rebjc that there needs to be some sort of incentive otherwise most people just get lazy. And I agree that we value certain types of jobs more than others - a doctor more than a janitor - when it's just as important that someone clean the hospital. (You don't truely value a good janitor until you hold that job yourself - the best experience I had was working maintainance one summer for minimum wage.)

That's where I think the value of the ideas behind Communism come in. It's crazy that in this country, not every child has the same access to a good education (in most NYC public schools, kids have to share text books...unless you go to a special school). It's crazy that most of use throw out unused food in this country yet thousands of families can't feed their children. That just shouldn't be. We are a wealthy country. We should be able to provide good medical services to anyone who needs it. We should be able to make sure all kids get 3 meals a day.

Besides, it's good to know, that if it weren't for the help of the American Communist Party in the 1930s and 40s, we wouldn't have the 40 hour work week or a lot of other things that their help with unions got us. Things that we all think now is the right of every American worker but wasn't not so long ago.

[Rositabean]

msnicolea and LFPH you cannot claim to know my intent. I may be many things, but I am not a liar. I am blunt enough that if I wanted to call someone un-American I would just say it. Seriously, if you think everything has a double meaning you have some major issues and perhaps some therapy will help you see that not everyone is out to get you or trying to slam you or your beliefs. Stop reading into things.

I like the gay analogy too because this is the flavor of my first post:

"I have noticed there have been a lot of complaints about our DH/SO being insensitive louts lately. Since we all seem to be having problems with the men in our lives, maybe we should leave them and become lesbians. Lesbianism is the answer to all that woes us. Join me in meeting for coffee at Little Frieda's. We can all hold hands and read the latest issue of Curve!"

It might seem ridiculous, but it isn't mean-spirited.

miel, rebecj, and jnettie thanks for your thoughtful posts. I am interested in what you have to say and would like to discuss but DS is having a meltdown right now so I'll bbl.

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

msnicolea and LFPH you cannot claim to know my intent. I may be many things, but I am not a liar. I am blunt enough that if I wanted to call someone un-American I would just say it. Seriously, if you think everything has a double meaning you have some major issues and perhaps some therapy will help you see that not everyone is out to get you or trying to slam you or your beliefs. Stop reading into things.
Stop reading into things? Hey, maybe your intent wasn't to insult in your very first post. However, it was not at all unreasonable to read it that way. The fact that, rather than acknowledging that it might not have been the most diplomatic way to approach the topic, you then pile on insult (like saying that people haven't paid attention in or plain old didn't take history class, or saying "you have issues or maybe you need therapy") makes it pretty hard to believe that you weren't being intentionally insulting from the start though.

ETA: I never said you were calling anyone "un-American," so how about you not put words into my mouth? I said you were insulting.

[jnettie]

Rositabean, I really wasn't sure if I should have said anything at all because I also found your OP rather insulting. The spirit of the OP is not one of discussion. But when I felt the conversation might have a chance of becoming serious, thanks to miel and Rebjc, I decided to chime in.

You know, sometimes people just need to vent. Yeah, we're heavy on the librals here, but sometimes as a liberal you feel like your government is letting you down. From our POV, things are going very very bad. I, for one, am sick of ill informed people making policy or getting all the attention from the government.

It's the same thing as your example of the insensative husband threads. Just because someone starts a thread about their husband and everyone chimes in with their story doesn't mean we aren't working on the problem. Jumping in and telling those posters that really they should become lesbians is insulting to them and insulting to lesbians. Just let people vent sometimes or provide some constructive critisism.

Finally, unfortunately, you don't have a very long posting history - I see 53 posts right now - and the freshest thread in everyone's mind is that cat thread. You did apologize, and I beleive everyone was ready to forgive you and welcome you into this community, but then you begin an equally inflamitory thread. It doesn't do much for many of us to trust you anymore.

[Rositabean]

I want complete economic, social and political equality
Miel I agree that there should be political equality, but as far as social and economic equality, I think everyone should have the same opportunity to succeed. However if some citizens choose not to use the available opportunities, I don't think they should be rewarded and live the same lifestyle as someone who spent more time on their education or works more. That is the part of communism I disagree with. If I could live in the same house and have the same amenities whether I studied for 12 years or whether I worked on a small farm right out of high school, then I would just as soon grow strawberries.

I agree more with what rebecj and jnettie said. I think especially that children should be sheltered, fed, and educated. What I am not sure of is how this can be most fairly acomplished. What comes to mind for me is two 16 y/o girls I took care of who were "pregnant together" and treating it like "oh how fun, were getting manicures together!" The county was picking up the tab for the prenatal care (thank God they were getting it) and when the babies would be born they were looking forward to WIC and welfare. To me, welfare doesn't sound that great, but if you have never worked before and have not had your own money before, well it is some money you otherwise wouldn't have had. I don't think those girls had any business having babies that they were not prepared to support and I wish there was a way to not make it so easy to have a baby in the sense that others will be financially responsible for the babies. But since I care about the babies, I want them to be cared for and have milk and healthcare and a safe place to live. They shouldn't be punished for the mom's irresponsibility. I don't have a good solution, I am just very torn.

I myself was in Head Start, and I don't think I would be where I am today if the folks in Head Start hadn't been so encouraging to my mom about the importance of my education. I felt really sad when I heard that funding for Head Start, student loans, etc was being cut.

I think it is right to help people, and I think people need to show some responsibility for themselves (like I will have to pay my student loans back, with interest, I am planning for my own retirement).

As for my posting history, yeah it is short (was longer on WC) because I spent most time in family/home/pets I haven't had much to say.

You know, sometimes people just need to vent.
This is what happened in the infamous cat thread, a cat pooped in my baby's sandbox (and incidentally later came back to pee all over the lid) and I was extremely pissed of and went on a vent/rant when I should have just asked how to get them out of my yard.

This is the thing that kind of bothers me, that it is only okay to vent if everyone agrees with you because otherwise it is open season for dissenters to be mean to you and call you names.

On that note...

LFPH said And while we're on the topic of insults... I suppose next you're going to say that by "I guess you missed that day in history class if you even took history," you were trying to be sensitive to the fact that people might have different education levels, huh? and you then pile on insult (like saying that people haven't paid attention in or plain old didn't take history class,

while msnicolea said She's not being brave, artist, and she's not a Communist--she's baiting, using the same old tiresome, ill-informed, uneducated rhetoric. and In my experience, G, I find that the people who do this tend to be uneducated and unable to present rational, thoughtful arguments, so instead they invoke buzz words and hyperbole.

So when I question whether one has taken history (not questioning their entire educational background) I am the villian, but when someone's "buddy" blatantly implies I am uneducated and ill-informed, that is fine and dandy and let's all be ITA!

It just reinforces the climate in this forum that it is acceptable to be rude to others as long as you have your posse behind you to get your back. This excessive hostility will suppress any kind of actual discourse on any topic in this forum as anyone with a non-majority opinion will soon tire of being treated like a piece of crap and stop posting. Then you can have just what you want...a forum where you can all just vent about people who are different than you and pat each other on the back for agreeing with one another that you are the smartest, most articulate group of gals with all the answers.

To clarify yet again Calling someone a communist IS an insult when that's the intent, when people who don't understand what it mean to be "communist" use the term to imply anti-american activity (a la McCarthy), then it IS an insult. Since I am aware that we differ in our levels of understanding, and to (try to) ensure that my use of "communism" wouldn't be taken the wrong way, I supplied links (that I suspect no one bothered to look at) so that there could be an understanding of how I was using that word/concept.

[Asha]

rosita - my dh have seen several cases of pregnant teenagers like the one you describe. though, i don't think that is really caused by a socialist/communist society. i think more likely than not what influences it more is the immediate gratification that many people in america must compulsively feed. i would venture to guess that the teenage pregnancy rates are probably lower in communist societies than in our capitalistic society.

[Asha]

some stats on teen pregnancy for planned parenthood..

Rates of Teenage Childbearing in the U.S. Are the Highest in the Developed World.

The U.S. teenage birth rate is the highest in the developed world: two and a half times as high as Australia's, more than two and a half times as high as Canada's, more than three times as high as Germany's, nearly five times as high as France's, seven times as high as Japan's, and seven and a half times as high as the Netherlands' (United Nations, 2005).


Reasons for the lower rates of teenage childbearing in these countries include

mandatory, medically accurate sexuality education programs that provide comprehensive information and encourage teens to make responsible choices

easy access to contraception and other forms of reproductive health care, including abortion

social acceptance of adolescent sexual expression as normal and healthy

straightforward public health media campaigns

government support for the right of teens to accurate information and confidential services (Berne & Huberman, 1999)


In 2003, 10 percent of all U.S. births were to teens (Hamilton et al., 2004).

[LyLMyssChaos]

I just have to say that you are great Rosita!!! :)
You are really awesome. I really think that this place could use someone who has your independence, knowledge and self-esteem. Don't let the fact that you've had a few threads wind up in flames get you down. There are more than a few of us that have had threads end up much in the same way that these most recent ones have for you, and we've still stuck around. I'm not saying you won't take a bunch of garbage at times, but I think if you stick by your convictions and keep the conversation above name-calling and whatnot, that you will see that there are people here who will respect you and carry on a worthwhile discussion with you.

[BTB]

OP: here is an interesting political issue
LMC (or other conservative poster): here is what I think
Other liberal posters: You are an idiot LMC. Everything you say is pointless. We are right and you are wrong.

I actually completely agree with this synopsis; it's happened more often than not lately and Rositabean is hardly the first poster to comment on it. The alternate that someone posted was comical but ironically revealed the deep liberal slant of the boards in it's maintenance that liberal viewpoints are supported by facts and conservative viewpoints are held by "uneducated, ill-informed" people who think what they think because they think it and ought to reconsider their positions in light of those facts.

I also find it unfortunate that someone with a low post count is automatically assumed "new" to the community or worse, a troll. People can be around a long time, but not post much during that time; that doesn't make them new or mythical. I can personally vouch that Rositabean is not "STFU pirate bride" nor any other infamous member of WC/CC and that she is very much "real". She was a familiar face on the WC, and just is not around CC as much as some of the rest of us.

And lastly, the filibuster method of disagreement, as someone very well captured it, in derailing into the redeeming (or not) qualities of Nutella is amusing but is itself about as conducive to intelligent discussion as many have claimed the original post to be.

[Delta]

Oh, and don't forget avoidance tactic #2: The filibuster approach (avoidance tactic of choice for those passive-aggressive CCers):

Get together with like-minded buddies and derail thread by posting pages of nonsense about some random, irrelevant, and light-hearted topic, periodically interjecting snarky insults directed towards LMC or other conservative poster.
So wonderfully said.

[Sandie78]

D'oh, posted in the wrong place. Continue...

[LyLMyssChaos]

I also find it unfortunate that someone with a low post count is automatically assumed "new" to the community or worse, a troll. People can be around a long time, but not post much during that time; that doesn't make them new or mythical. I can personally vouch that Rositabean is not "STFU pirate bride" nor any other infamous member of WC/CC and that she is very much "real". She was a familiar face on the WC, and just is not around CC as much as some of the rest of us.


I very much agree with you on this! I can also vouch(and have stated such) that she is not sfinvegas. I don't know Rositabean from anyone, but I know that she IS most definitely NOT sfinvegas.

[LittleFredPunkinHead]

So when I question whether one has taken history (not questioning their entire educational background) I am the villian, but when someone's "buddy" blatantly implies I am uneducated and ill-informed, that is fine and dandy and let's all be ITA!

It just reinforces the climate in this forum that it is acceptable to be rude to others as long as you have your posse behind you to get your back. This excessive hostility will suppress any kind of actual discourse on any topic in this forum as anyone with a non-majority opinion will soon tire of being treated like a piece of crap and stop posting. Then you can have just what you want...a forum where you can all just vent about people who are different than you and pat each other on the back for agreeing with one another that you are the smartest, most articulate group of gals with all the answers.
So, once again you deny that you've said anything insulting.

As to why I personally haven't defended you against msnicolea... I'm no den mother. I assume if you pick a fight, you can defend yourself. To add to that, if you insult me personally, I feel even less need to defend you.

As far as the idea that "It just reinforces the climate in this forum that it is acceptable to be rude to others as long as you have your posse behind you to get your back," what exactly are you pushing for? That it's okay to be rude to others as long as you can outbluster them?

[jnettie]

Ok, now, I want to be clear about this, and I hope I'm just being paranoid, but I never ever said the posters here that don't agree with liberal ideas are "uneducated" or "ill-informed." I saw that other thread that just popped up and immediately thought, "oh, crap" and went back to my post. I said:
I, for one, am sick of ill informed people making policy or getting all the attention from the government.
Meaning, I feel fringe groups that really don't know what they are talking about are the ones who make the most noise and the people in power now seem to have a religious agenda or whatever and don't seem to get their information from people who really know what they are talking about. Then, you see someone here repeat bad information, and, well, you just kind of loose it. I mean, how many times can you explain scientific method?

One of the things I love about CC is having good, sensable discussions with people I may not otherwise have those discussions. Can we get back to that? Sensable discussions?

[BTB]

Sensible discussion would be great, but is only possible with mutual respect. Within the past week, we had a thread about whether Republican = pro-poor, and in it was the statement that (a certain poster, the particular identity of which is irrelevant to the point) thinks of Republicans as either fat cats sittin' cushy on their piles of money looking down their noses at the poor slobs down there or uneducated hillbillies with bad teeth, a rifle at the ready and a barefoot pregnant woman in the kitchen - who's too ignorant even to know he's hurting himself with his GOP vote. That kind of pre-judice (in the literal sense) makes it difficult to have an actual exchange of ideas, and the LMC-bashing that's been so prevalent recently has chased away others who might've been willing to discuss (not conjecture - as stated by a few posters lately).

[LyLMyssChaos]

I must admit that I feel badly that my merely be present in a thread can cause it to derail so badly that others may be afraid to post for fear of repercussions. Perhaps it would be best if for the sake of the community, I stopped becomming involved in political discussions for awhile. I mean, it is fairly obvious that I am often the odd man out opinion-wise and as much as I enjoy discussing political issues with those that are willing to discuss them, I don't want to contribute to the decay of the community.

[trefoil]

As a person who often disagrees with your political posts, LMC, I also disagree that you should step out of the political discussions. (hee!) ;) People who prefer not to read your posts have the option of putting you on ignore. I'm not fond of the fact that you have been receiving personal insults recently and I'm glad that you haven't let that chase you off. I think that removing opinions from this forum (even if it is voluntary) would be something that I would define as contributing to the decay of the community.

Besides, who wants to read a thread in P&CE that consists of an original post followed by post after post of "ITA" or some variation? That would be terribly boring.

[BTB]

I think that removing opinions from this forum (even if it is voluntary) would be something that I would define as contributing to the decay of the community.

Agreed. I think the answer is for the community to step up it's discussion caliber, not for discussion participants to be made to feel unwelcome.

[LyLMyssChaos]

Besides, who wants to read a thread in P&CE that consists of an original post followed by post after post of "ITA" or some variation? That would be terribly boring.

See?? That's how exactly how I feel, and I think that is why I do continue to participate. I mean, my opinion may not agree with the general population, but if people could keep things about the topics at hand instead of turning it into personal grudges or attacks, I think that we could(and have had when people have kept the lines of discussion open) some really great debates and discussion. I'm glad to know that there are a few people who although they disagree with what I have to say, can at least respect that I have a different opinion and appreciate what a different opinion may bring to discussions.

[artist]

Sorry I didn't get to respond to you yet. I had to cut my post short because duty called. I appreciate that you apologized for name calling. I am sorry that you felt that you wasted your time authoring a thoughtful response. I actually would have liked to hear what you had to say.

Well, by now that post is deleted. (I promise I don't normally delete. I just felt the need to as I did not feel the need to potentially be attacked for saying anything at all in defense of Communism as I had no clue who you were or what was going on in the thread.)


Unfortunately everyone had such a negative visceral response to the "c" word that any and all hopes to discuss just fizzled away.

Right. And I honestly don't have a big problem with the "c" word like most people do. Not that I don't see the flaws in it. And I don't think it would work here. However, as simply an idea, I can definitely see some positive sides to it. (Yes, even though there was the Cold War.)


My post was mostly serious and partly tongue in cheek...not in a "you are un-American!" kind of way but in a "what if we took our political ideas to extreme absurdity" kind of way.

Right. I guess I just misunderstood your motives and assumed you were trying to start a big fight or lord knows what.


How far should equality go? Should we aspire to be a classless society or is class stratification a necessary evil. Is it fair for an unskilled laborer to earn as much (in wages and benefits) and a skilled professional? Should we subsidize the lives of those who can't become proficient in some skill or who refuse to? Is there a basic equality that all should share and then some can strive for and achieve more while others remain at a lower but still acceptable level? I would like to know what you think.

And see this is why I sometimes think there must be a part of me that is a little bit Communist or Socialist. There are certain professions that earn more money per year than other professions. Often I cannot understand why. I think teachers and social workers (and many other workers for that matter) are just as important as say lawyers. I don't think a CEO deserves more money than a teacher. I think a person working as a cashier is often paid horribly. And though their work may seem "meaningless", they are helping the company make profit, and I think they deserve at least a fair wage. I really do think the ideal world (for me anyhow) would be such where people were more on an equal playing field. People would all have some sort of a job and would get paid about the same. That's me though. I am sure it's an unpopular belief. I do get so sick of wealthy people proclaiming that they "work so hard" for their money. A lot of poor people work really hard for their money too, it's just that they work harder for way less pay.

[artist]

I

I also find it unfortunate that someone with a low post count is automatically assumed "new" to the community or worse, a troll. People can be around a long time, but not post much during that time; that doesn't make them new or mythical. I can personally vouch that Rositabean is not "STFU pirate bride" nor any other infamous member of WC/CC and that she is very much "real". She was a familiar face on the WC, and just is not around CC as much as some of the rest of us.



Trust me, I am certain she is not that person! OP of this thread is capable of apologizing. Therefore, she is a reasonable human being.

[jnettie]

It's more an issue of trust. If one doesn't post often but manages to spark off 2 arguement threads, then post count comes into play. But, I think maybe we've just misunderstood her in both cases. We all understand the nuance is lost when you type.

She has applogized, in both cases, for pissing people off.

I'll applogize for pointing fingers. I'm sorry.

artist - I'm with you, babe! I had an agruement with a CEO friend of FIL's about this very thing. He insisted that anyone could be where he was, they just didn't try hard enough. I explained that not everyone has the same opportunities. My grandpa never graduated from HS because he had to take care of his mom and sisters when his dad died. So, for the rest of his life he could only get jobs as a janitor or the like. My grandma wasn't allowed to work, even though she was college educated, because she earned her teaching certificate in England (t