Face Products..Drugstore vs. Dept. Store vs. SPA?

[ktsb]

I go back and on this often and am wondering if you all can help me.

Are the products you buy at the SPA any better than what you can buy for A LOT less $$$ in a dept. store? And what about the drug store lines such as Aveeno, Roc, Oil of Olay and Neutrogena? Are they just as good?

[shopaholic]

I use cetaphil which can be classified as an expensive drug store brand (although its available through dermatologists).

I really don't see the difference, just as long as you don't use bar soap on your face.

[armadillo]

Bar soap is actually what works best on my face. I can't use anything with Sodium Laryl Sulfate or Sodium Lareth Sulfate because they make me break out, so I go the all natural route with bar soap that I make myself.

[shopaholic]

I was always told that using bar soap on your face was a huge no-no.

I used to use Dove and then I went to get a facial and the facialist chewed my butt out because I used soap on my face. She said it is very drying.

[looch]

It depends on what you are buying and for what purpose. If it is a general use product like cleanser, toner, moisturizer, I would say that drugstore is fine. If you are looking for specialized products, say that treat acne or wrinkles, I find that dermotologist or prescription products are often best.
HTH!

[ktsb]

I should clarify I'm mostly concerned with lotions and anti-aging (California sun!) type products. They sure are pricey even at the drug store level.

[armadillo]

Dove isn't "soap". It's a bar that's made out of synthetic detergents. Soap, by definition, is a "cleansing agent made from the salts of vegetable or animal fats". I got a facial once and the woman gave me an earful also when she found out I use soap on my face. Soap, if made well, is NOT drying at all. The woman I went to talked about the pH of soap...because soap's pH is much higher than your skin's pH. I could see her point, but nothing has ever worked better for me than just plain ol' soap, and that includes the Dermalogica products she had me buy.

KTSB, have you ever read that book Don't Go to the Cosmetics Counter Without Me? It's a pretty good book and there are plenty of drug store brands that are just as good or better than the expensive stuff.

[dollface]

"Dove isn't "soap". It's a bar that's made out of synthetic detergents. Soap, by definition, is a "cleansing agent made from the salts of vegetable or animal fats".

Actually Dove bars do contain significant amounts of animals fats (tallow) and is considered a soap.

As for the difference between professional products vs. drugstore - it's all about what works for you. When I give facials I use professional products - Dermalogica, Bio Elements, Yonka, Murad - simply because I know my client will not have a reaction (unless I am misinformed of any allergies or sensitivities). When I wash my face at night, I use Aveeno :)

[armadillo]

Dove bars also contain detergents though, so I guess *I* wouldn't consider them soaps. The first ingredient they list on their Sensitive Skin bar is a detergent. Tallow is the 4th ingredient, then there's another detergent as the 8th ingredient, then Coconut or Palm oil listed after that. I guess I just like my soap to be just soap...

[shopaholic]

Dove bars also contain detergents though, so I guess *I* wouldn't consider them soaps. The first ingredient they list on their Sensitive Skin bar is a detergent. Tallow is the 4th ingredient, then there's another detergent as the 8th ingredient, then Coconut or Palm oil listed after that. I guess I just like my soap to be just soap...
what brand do you use because I am confused.

[dollface]

Originally Posted by armadillo
Dove bars also contain detergents though, so I guess *I* wouldn't consider them soaps. The first ingredient they list on their Sensitive Skin bar is a detergent.

Yes, but Stearic acid is the 2nd ingredient - this is also a product of animal fat. I am confused by your first sentence because if it has detergent, it *is* a soap. You are saying if it has detergent you don't consider it soap.

[armadillo]

I really don't want to argue this. In my eyes, soap is made with animal fats or vegetable oils, sodium hydroxide, and water. Then you can add fragrances or other things, but the basis of soap is fat + NaOH. In section 701.20 of Title 21 of the Code of Federal Regulations [21 CFR 701.20], the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) defines the term "soap" as a product in which the non-volatile portion consists principally of an alkali salt of fatty acids Maybe Dove contains enough soap that they can say that it consists principally of an alkali salt of fatty acids, but it's also got a lot more than just soap. Stearic acid is an animal or vegetable product, but it's not soap...it's used as a hardener.

According to Wikipedia, Sometimes the word "detergent" is used in distinction to "soap". For a while during the infancy of other surfactants as commercial detergent products, the term "syndet", short for "synthetic detergent" was promoted to indicate this, but never caught on too well, and is incorrect in any event because soap is itself synthesized via saponification of glycerides. The term "soapless soap" also saw a brief vogue. Unfortunately there is no accurate term for detergents not made of soap other than "soapless detergent" or "non-soap detergent".

Also, the term "detergent" is sometimes used for surfactants in general, even when they are not used for cleaning. As can be seen above, this too is terminology that should be avoided as long as the term "surfactant" itself is available.

Technically plain water, if used for cleaning, is a detergent. Probably the most widely used detergents other than water are soaps or mixtures composed chiefly of soaps. However, not all soaps have significant detergency. Often the word "soap" is used to indicate any detergent, especially those that have characteristics similar to those of soap; it's hard to beat a 4-letter word for popularity, even at the cost of precision.

[armadillo]

what brand do you use because I am confused.

Any brand with an ingredient listing I like. Sorry, I don't really care what brand it is as long as I know it's all natural. I have also made my own, but I don't do it right now because life is busy! Here is an example of an ingredient listing I like...
Zen Soaps (http://shop.zensoaps.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=32)

[shopaholic]

I really don't want to argue this.Didn't look like anyone was argueing...geez.

[ktsb]

Thanks everybody!

Dollface you hit the nail on the head...thanks so much. I love Aveeno for daily use as well. What line would you use to decrease the appearance of fine lines? Or age-defying?

Armadillo that book sounds like exactly what I'm looking for too. I've read bits and pieces in magazines suggesting some/most of the make-up in the drug store is just as good as the dept. store too. I would love to make my own but I'm with you...I'm not sure when I would find the time!

[armadillo]

I think it's a good buy, KTSB. My friend has it and it's her go-to book whenever she wants to try a new product. It's also got a listing of a lot of ingredients and says what they do, so you can read up on the ingredients that are in the products you buy.

[GeekGirl]

Wow, I never thought I could learn so much about soap! It's interesting though, how much we'll spend on products for our face. I used to swear by Clinique three step as a teenager, but as I've gotten older my skin type has changed drastically. Now I wash with baking soda, and it's worked miracles. Not to mention being waaaaaaaaaay cheaper.

[dollface]

I really don't want to argue this. In my eyes, soap is made with animal fats or vegetable oils, sodium hydroxide, and water. Then you can add fragrances or other things, but the basis of soap is fat + NaOH.

Honestly, I wasn't trying to argue it! I was just pointing out scientific fact and offering my professional knowledge and advice.

[suzubeane]

Now I wash with baking soda, and it's worked miracles. Not to mention being waaaaaaaaaay cheaper. What kind of miracles has baking soda worked, and how do you use it?

[armadillo]

Honestly, I wasn't trying to argue it! I was just pointing out scientific fact and offering my professional knowledge and advice.

I wasn't saying you were trying to argue, I could just see it becoming an argument! :) It's all semantics, really, but in the soap world, Dove is not considered a true soap because it adds extra detergents. Here's the
FDA definition of soap (http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/cos-215.html). Ordinary soap is solely made up of fats and an alkali....the product you regard as soap may not be soap at all, but a synthetic detergent "beauty" or "bath" bar. These and similar names have been used by copywriters to spare the consumer the awful knowledge that she is not bathing herself with real soap, but with a synthetic detergent which, ironically, is for some purposes superior to soap. Some "soap" bars may consist of soap and synthetic detergent.



And the science behind soapmaking...
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e35/armadillo9/SaponificationEquation500.jpg
This is what happens when you mix fats with NaOH. That's all soap is. Everything else that is added in bars like Dove is what makes Dove not a "true soap" but a synthetic detergent. Notice that even Dove doesn't call it a soap, but a "beauty bar".

[Mooshie]

Who knew there would be such controversy in this thread?...;)

Anyway, I use Neutrogena face wash "Anti-Wrinkle" + "Anti-Blemish" to wash my face at night and then a Jurlique face wash/scrub called "Face Wash Cream" in the shower in the mornings to wash my face. (It's a gentle almond scrub.)

So I use both ends of the spectrum price-wise as the Jurlique product is expensive at about $70 a tube, although one tube has lasted me 8 months (using it about once a day.)

[irish74]

I wash with:

http://www.olay.com/quicksearch/images/us29137_BIG.gif

and mositurize with:

http://www.olay.com/quicksearch/images/us01232004_06_BIG.gif


I am just as happy if not happier with these than the many Clarins, Estee Lauder, Clinique, Lancome, Murad, etc products that I've spent a lot of $$ on.

[carrie9142]

*Flashes back to Chem 2 and can't believe the word saponification has come up again in life*

Personally, I would save my money on dept. store face wash and splurge more on moisturizer or a treatment for any problem area. In my experience, the dept. store stuff is great for random products.

[GeekGirl]

What kind of miracles has baking soda worked, and how do you use it?

I read about it on another thread here. I just put a little bit of the baking soda in my hand and mix it with water to form a paste, then wash with that. I do it twice a day, but my skin isn't nearly as sensitive as someone else's might be. Some of the other people who use it only do it once a day or a couple of times a week - just whatever works best for your skin. I have normal-to-oily skin, am prone to breakouts on the jawline, and used to have a big problem with shininess toward the end of the day. Since I've started using baking soda, it's nearly eradicated my breakouts, the shininess is gone, and my skin looks and feels fantastic! It's awesome.

[ktsb]

Irish74 - thanks I was wondering about those products. And it was a toss up between something like that and something like Estee Lauder.

Mooshie and Carrie9142 you pretty much described what I'm doing now. I was just wondering if I really needed to pay for the pricey anti-wrinkle stuff. Maybe I'm going the right direction as is.

P.S. New vocabulary word for the day...saponification. I majored in business so I managed to have no chemistry except high school.

[ysolde]

I wash with Cetaphil, and use Arden's Ceramide capsules at night. I use a moisturizer with SPF 30 by day, and a night cream. In the mornings, I have begun using Prevage.

[lawyerlee]

I'm an absolute Murad loyalist. It is what my facialist uses, and it is what gives me the best results at home. It is actually just about the same price as a lot of department store lines, in my experience, but so much more suited to my needs.

[BlackMagicRose]

Does anyone have a problem with their skin getting "used to" the product they are using and have to switch? This is a big problem for me. I will get a product and it will work great on my face for a long time and then it will stop working and I will have to buy something new. Does anyone else have this problem? I have difficult skin. It is oily most of the time and dry some of the time. I do use a moisturizer that I love. It is Oil of Olay Anti Aging Anti Blemish.

[KeliAnn]

I use Cetaphil as my face wash and natural Vitamin C cream as my moisturizer every night and morning. I used to get chin zits quite a bit, but this combo has virtually eliminated breakouts for me.

I need to find a good moisturizer with SPF, but I'm so unwilling to let go of my Vitamin C. :o

[Heidi9771]

Bar soap is actually what works best on my face. I can't use anything with Sodium Laryl Sulfate or Sodium Lareth Sulfate because they make me break out, so I go the all natural route with bar soap that I make myself.

Bar soap works for me too. I find that drug store brands and department store brands often have a huge price difference, yet they still both suffer the same problem...most of those fancy ingredients stabilize in the jar before they even reach your skin. I do like acid peels and Renova prescription to prevent/cease wrinkles/keep my skin bright and clear (from my derm). I don't spend money on much else when it comes to skin care.