Sleep Teaching/Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child [Archive]

Mickey&B

06-27-2005, 06:49 PM

Okay let me start by saying no I don't have a child of my own, but I will soon. However I have worked with infants/children and families for about 10 years (so I have a little experience) along with my degree in Child Growth and Development. With that little disclaimer :D

I agree this is absolutly keybecause we learned early on to pay attention to and respect her sleep cues and because we responded to her needs right away.

Professionally I can't agree with CIO method, because I know that at this time in your child's life they are learning about trust, and forming those bonds. The way I see it is how do I expect this little being to know that it is night time and it's time to stay asleep. and every child is different and not all babies will be sleeping through the night at a specific age.

I just started reading Secrets of the Baby Whisperer and I like almost everything I have read so far, mostly because it deals with respecting your child's needs and how to read their cues.
I also really liked Magda Gerber's book Caring for infants with respect. I'll have to check out the no cry sleep solution.
JMO, Again I am not a mother yet, but I am subscribing because I am sure I will need all that help and support from you experienced mommies. I can only imagine just how exhausted some of you are, but hang on it won't last forever.

scout

06-28-2005, 07:26 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Weissbluth doesn't exactly "recommend" CIO, just present it as one of the three possible strategies, yes? You're right...he doesn't recommend CIO, but he does say that it's o.k. to let the baby CIO for up to a couple of hours. Of course, this is for an older baby. Or am I mixing this up with a different book?

LeslieR

06-28-2005, 07:36 PM

*subscribing*

I've been trying to read Weisbluth's book for a couple months now, but my attention span seems to be getting shorter and shorter as I get closer to my due date. :rolleyes:

Phen

06-28-2005, 08:11 PM

Katie, you're gonna want to marry Dr. Weissbluth, I swear. Life since we started using his methods has been just fantastic. Routine + twins = wonderful stuff.

Mickey, the thing I really dislike about equating Weissbluth's methods with CIO is that not every child actually CsIO. I swear to you, my boys were SO ready to sleep when we put them down that they have never cried more than maybe 10 minutes. No making-themselves-sick-by-crying-it-out over here.

Tray, my guys get draggy by the end of the afternoon but, as you pointed out, that third nap just won't happen sometimes (they dropped theirs entirely about a month or two ago--around 10 mos.). But don't forget: sleep begets sleep! So if you put the baby to bed a little early, it shouldn't mean she gets up earlier tomorrow. For instance, my guys typically go to bed between 6 and 6:15 p.m., but there are days when they had sucky naps and were completely Ready For Bedtime by 5:45. And we'd put them in their cribs and they'd snuggle right down, close their eyes, and be snoring practically before we'd tiptoed out of the room (and still slept 'til their normal wakeup time of 7 a.m. the next day).

eta: Leslie, you don't need to read the whole book at first. Two sections are invaluable, though: the Sleep Physiology (first "section") and then whatever section addresses your child's current age.

~ Phen
Loud and Proud about STing

curlywig

06-28-2005, 08:20 PM

I've been trying to read HSHHC for what seems like months now (DS is 10 weeks old) but every time I pick it up, I have to run. I finally told DH that this weekend is all about reading the entire book.

So far "naps" have been different every day. Sometimes it seems DS gets sleepy in the morning, other times not. I have gotten better at reading his early sleep ques (sp?) especially this last week. Of course, today we were set to work on naps, but yesterday DS got some vax's and he's quite a bit "off" today. So, in the next day or two, we'll work on naps.

I so wish Weissbluth would come out with a Cliff Notes version. Don't these authors know that we don't have much spare time on our hands?!

emschwar

06-28-2005, 08:24 PM

curlywig - 10 weeks is way too early for anything resembling a schedule. at this point, you want to pay attention to sleepy cues, and never have him awake for longer than 2 hours, and possibly closer to 1. If he's up longer than that, he'll get overtired and be impossible to get back to sleep.

You probably won't get him on a real schedule until closer to 6 months old. Of course, Noah's 14 months old and still doesn't have a real schedule. He just never would conform to one (some babies do that).

diedra1027

06-28-2005, 08:34 PM

I so wish Weissbluth would come out with a Cliff Notes version. Don't these authors know that we don't have much spare time on our hands?!

Curlywig - I sat down to read HSHHC yesterday and I found that if I skipped all the testimonials the reading was so much quicker. I don't know about anybody else, but the testimonials actually confused me more than anything (lots of talk about training at 6 weeks and CIO for 4 hours at 8 weeks, etc, etc).

BTB

06-28-2005, 11:45 PM

Scout ~ could be, I haven't read the sections on older babies yet. :)

curlywig ~ the summary at the end of each section is sufficient to get you started - or read "action plan for exhausted parents" at the end of the age group you need.

seattleguamgirl

06-28-2005, 11:55 PM

I started using Weissbluth's method to catch Roman's sleepy signals early and IT WORKED. Now Roman takes two to three solid naps a day and recently started STTN for 11 - 13 hours! I am so so so happy I bought this book. :)

R's bed time used to be 8PM but after reading HSHHC, I moved it up to 5 or 6PM. It helped tremendously.

For those worrying about CIO, R very rarely cries when I put him to bed if I catch his sleepy signals in time. If he does cry, it's for 20 minutes max. I would never be able to let R cry for an extended period of time!

twinnyme

06-29-2005, 06:20 AM

Hi. DD is 5.5 months old and she used to sleep through the night (from about 8 weeks to 12 weeks) but then started getting up again at night to eat. I am thoroughly confused at this point about what to do. I have read HSHHC and used it earlier, and I am okay with some CIO (like what Phen said - the 10-minute-settling-crying thing that Becca does is fine, and she does that pretty often, but if it goes much longer, we get very antsy and can't let her get too far). We are traveling to NYC this weekend by car and I am packing my copy of HSHHC - after one frustrating night, I threw it on DH's work bag the next morning to "suggest" he read it. I found it on the coffee table that night. :rolleyes: It's just hard to find time to read it now, so for those of you who are reading it BEFORE the babies, good for you!! Hopefully you'll be able to use the information earlier. We'll be having a discussion about it in the car this weekend.

I just posted this in my Jan. 05 group:

She didn't sleep as well, though - 7:20 to 1:30 a.m. and then until 7 - well not well for US, but better for her. 11 hours in total with one night wake-up versus the previous night which was 9 hours straight (8 to 5). So really, this night's sleep was better for HER so I'm just trying to think that way from now on. I just feel like such a bad mother when people ask is she sleeping through the night and I have to say no, but then as I said to DH this morning, we know her best and respond to her the way we think is right. At least it's only 1-2 times a week that she wakes up at night; it just seems more to me - I think I'm going to start charting it so I can see it visually and feel better.

I've been trying to get her bedtime earlier but we get home from daycare at 5:30 or so, and she usually eats a meal of solids, takes one more bottle, has a bath and some quiet playtime, etc. I do think I'm letting her get overtired before I put her to bed but if I try to put her in bed at 7, she is extremely frustrated and will not go to sleep at all. Perhaps even earlier would work? I don't know at this point. Maybe when I start my part-time job, the days I'm home with her I can work on a better schedule, and then implement that at daycare.

But I'm open to any and all suggestions, too!

emschwar

06-29-2005, 06:59 AM

twinnyme - I'd try getting her to bed earlier. Up until the switch to DST, Noah went to bed at 6 - 6:30 every night (now he's gone up to 7). Can you speed up the after daycare routine, and maybe skip the playtime?

twinnyme

06-29-2005, 07:26 AM

I guess but I feel so bad not playing with her at all then (which I think is so important developmentally - but then again I guess so is sleep). But I think it's going to have to come to that for her sake.... I've been considering not giving her a bath anymore - she has so much hair that it's then wet when she goes awake (though I did blowdry it for the first time last night) but she' eating solids now and gets really messy (though a quick sponge bath would work, I guess).

I just long for the days when she went to bed at 6:45 and slept until 6:45 (from 8 to 12 weeks), for her sake and ours. My mother told me then to not mess it up (nicely; because things were going so well) but somehow I guess we did. :confused: But even for a while she easily went to sleep between 7 and 8, and then it got later during one family event weekend (her baptism) and we've struggled ever since. So I guess that's part of how we messed it up.... Anyway, I'm definitely going to try moving it earlier. After the baptism I did move it from 9 to about 7:30 (in a few weeks) so I guess I'll just keep trying to cut short the bedtime routine and get her in even earlier before she gets overtired.

Thanks, emschwar!

Phen

06-29-2005, 07:30 AM

twinnyme, I agree with em. It could just be that 15 minutes earlier might make all the difference in the world here.

Also maybe if she's got sleepy cues at some point earlier in the night (like if she gets the 500-mile stare while having her bottle, but then perks up for her bath), switch the order of things.

And the overnight trip away from home might be the perfect time to try to implement this/these change(s), since it's possible that the routine is going to take a bit of a shake-up then anyhow. Good luck!

~ phen

twinnyme

06-29-2005, 07:46 AM

twinnyme, I agree with em. Also maybe if she's got sleepy cues at some point earlier in the night (like if she gets the 500-mile stare while having her bottle, but then perks up for her bath), switch the order of things.

She does - and that's EXACTLY what she does; perk up for her bath! I'd tried to introduce the bath to help create a bedtime routine, but maybe it's just too much for her. It does seem to stimulate her more than relax her, I've noticed lately. Maybe I'm trying to do too much - I think I'm doing everything but the kitchen sink in the routine - solids, bottle, bath, massage, quiet playtime, book (usually doesn't happen), last quick bottle with holding lovey at same time. (The bedtime routine thread on WC was so helpful; I only introduced this routine about a month ago.) Her sleepy cues are there earlier but she "perks up" when I put her in her crib, and cries her little head off, and so I've gotten into the habit of picking her up again and soothing her, and then it's a game of going in the crib and coming out a few times.

And the overnight trip away from home might be the perfect time to try to implement this/these change(s), since it's possible that the routine is going to take a bit of a shake-up then anyhow.

Good point! She did sleep beautifully at my mother's last time we were there. We just have to stick to the routine, and we have every intention of doing so this time, no matter any protests from my family. We learned our lesson at her baptism.

Thanks for the input, Phen - sorry to monopolize the last few posts, everyone, but hopefully those reading along will find something helpful in this conversation!

Phen

06-29-2005, 07:50 AM

You're not monopolizing twinnyme! Not if it's helping, anyway. ;)

We had the exact same thing happen with the bathtime. It was totally waking our boys up, so we did bathtime first then the rest of the sleepytime routine and POW. that's all it took.

~ Phen

curlywig

06-29-2005, 09:42 AM

Ya, I figured we're a bit too early for ST, but I wanted to find out about any "bad habits" to avoid those now. ??

Any advice. Seems like this is our pattern. DS wakes around 6-6:30 am, I feed him, change him, he starts yawning and rubbing his eyes. Clear sleep ques. I spend the next 45 min-1 hour trying to get him to go to sleep. This morning, I put him in the crib awake and somewhat mellow. I can hear him grunting and restling (but not crying). We did that same thing ALL DAY yesterday, with nothing more than a 45 min. nap (of course, some of that was like due to feeling icky after vaxs).

Or, am I expecting too much? I'm not expecting a schedule at this point, but is it too much to hope for a nap somewhere in the AM and somewhere in the PM?

TIA!

emschwar

06-29-2005, 09:50 AM

curlywig - If he's yawning and rubbing his eyes, he may be overtired. Try putting him down about 10 minutes earlier and see what happens. Is there any way you can get him to sleep? Rocking, nursing/bottle, driving in the car? Weisbluth doesn't really recommend some of those, but at this point, I think it's more important that he sleep. When Noah was that little, we had to bounce him gently in our arms until he was asleep, then we could put him down. I don't think you should expect long naps at this point. Some babies are cat nappers when they're young.

Vaxes always threw Noah's naps to hell.

twinnyme

06-29-2005, 10:00 AM

I don't think you should expect long naps at this point. Some babies are cat nappers when they're young.

Yes, this was our case. Becca was always a catnapper until about 4 months of age or so (after she started daycare). I tell you, 13-hour days alone with her and nothing but catnaps really wore on me. But it was just her way. Although Weissbluth didn't recommend movement sleep, I had been doing that a lot with her before (stroller, car - though only unintentionally; swing, bouncy seat) but after I read him, once she fell asleep in one of those things, I would turn it off and she usually stayed asleep. Now she takes most naps in the bouncy seat - though she sleeps in her crib at night, I've almost given up on getting her to nap there - but without movement.

Oh, and one humorous tip: I can tell when Becca is getting tired when we're on a walk if her hat slips down over her eyes and she doesn't complain. It means she's overstimulated and WANTS to go to sleep but is fighting it. (If she cries it's because she's mad and still wants to look around.) The other day I actually put a hat on her inside the house to help her go to sleep - I also sometimes face the bouncy to the wall to give her less stimulation. (DH calls it the "naughty spot" from Nanny 911 or one of those shows but that's not my intention and we're helping her sleep, I figure, though SIL said the other day when my child needs therapy because she needs a hat to fall asleep....) Also, daycare says she always takes her naps in her crib and NEVER cries - in fact, they always ask me, "does she ever cry?" - so I don't know what we're doing wrong, but at least they got her on a nap system.

But I can sympathize with you, curlywig, though you may not to follow anything I suggest since we haven't been very successful so far! :D

seattleguamgirl

06-29-2005, 10:54 AM

Any advice. Seems like this is our pattern. DS wakes around 6-6:30 am, I feed him, change him, he starts yawning and rubbing his eyes.

Curlywig--have you tried leaving your DS in his crib (or wherever he sleeps) for twenty minutes or so after he wakes up? He might be able to go back to sleep on his own after initially waking up.

In my experience, if DS wakes up (not crying) earlier than 7AM I leave him in his crib unless I know he is fussy because he is hungry. If he is hungry I immediately nurse him and put him back in his crib to see if he will falll asleep again. If he is up after 7AM, we go about our morning routine (nursing, changing, playing) and then he goes back down at 9AM for his morning nap.

curlywig

06-29-2005, 03:57 PM

Thanks everyone for the advice. We're still just seeing what works and DS is still getting used to life on the outside! ;)

seattle: I usually leave him alone until he starts crying. I can hear him on the monitor, and he's been figuring out how to get his hand in his mouth, and generally just looking around. I won't go get him if he sounds awake but content. I should try what you've suggested and see if it works, esp. since he gets tired so fast in the morning. I guess I've just been in the mindset that our day has begun by that point, KWIM?

emschwar and twin: Good to know. I thought I was alone in having a baby who was a cat-napper. I need to reel in the expectations a bit and realize he's still just a wee one. Half the battle is knowing what's "normal" at any given age!

twinnyme

06-30-2005, 05:49 AM

I couldn't wait to get into work this morning to post in this thread!! (Becca shares her room with our office - we have a 2-bedroom - so I can't post from home at night). Anyway, thank you very much, emschwar and phen- you two are my heroes of the day!!! :D

You gave me the confidence last night to take your advice, and I put Becca to bed at 6:10, after a dinner of solids and a small (3 oz.) bottle. Not a SINGLE peep of protest from her as she went beautifully to sleep! (I was picturing your twins, Phen, snuggling into their beds happily.) I actually think that Becca has been trying to give me a cue (or a clue?) the last few days; she tends to look at her crib longingly sometimes now and I just didn't realize it until last night, though I know she's done it before. Anyway, it was amazing to have so much time last night to get things done - and honestly to relax a bit. I was still asleep by 9:00 but I actually had some down time to myself. And the good news for her is that she didn't have to cry when she went to sleep! (which I always feel so bad about) DH was shocked when he came home and everything was calm and quiet - he said "baby girl in bed already?" and I was proud to say yes! (though I felt bad he couldn't see her; he's been working a lot lately and actually got home relatively early last night, at a time when he usually would see her - but as HSHHC says, it's not a reason to keep a child up) He was amazed, and I reminded him that "sleep begets sleep" (as you said, Phen, and as I use as my mantra from HSHHC) - he didn't quite get that, so we'll be reading that section of the book this weekend, too! :)

The "bad"/confusing news? :confused: She still woke up at 2:40 a.m. to eat. But again, for her sake, the 8 straight hours she got, then going back to sleep about 3:30 until I left (6:15) and probably later is good for HER. (Btw, her normal wake up time is 5 or 6.) When she woke up last night, I heard her at 2:40 and she seemed to be talking to herself/playing so I didn't go in immediately. It soon escalated to crying, though, so I went in and tried the pacifier for a little while - didn't work, as usual; she's never really taken to the pacifier, though occasionally will take it to soothe herself into a nap. I gave her a bottle and she ate 4 oz. Since she'd had four 6-oz. bottles yesterday (a record for her), I figured she really didn't need to eat, but was just up for the companionship. I'm going to try to just feed her 2 or 3 oz. tonight, and then keep going down to 0 oz. and then the pacifier, and see if that helps. (A few weeks ago, I was prepared to try that, and then that night she started STTN spontaneouly for about 12 nights straight.)

Any tips on the overnight waking, though? Do you think my plan to decrease the amount in the bottle is okay? I know that HSHHC has tips on night wakings, so we'll be reading that section this weekend in the car - but any advice from all of you is appreciated, too, especially before the weekend!

I did write down all the times she woke this week (to visualize it) and she slept through the night only twice. (Strange that our perception is that she does it more; I guess that's good, though.) I figure if I put her into bed at 8 she may sleep "through the night" (8 hours) until 5, but she's so overtired then. So I kind of want to find a happy balance for her - but until further notice, she'll be going to bed at 6-ish from now on.

One question, though: I know my family will flip out if we put her to bed at 6 when we're there, and I know that I just posted a few messages back that I don't care what they think, we're sticking to her routine this time.... But honestly we only see them maybe once every other month and I want them to have time to get to know her, so I'm THINKING of keeping her up until 7 or 8 there, since we know she can do it, and that the only real issue is having trouble getting her to sleep. She remains generally happy until 7/8, just cries then when she's put in her crib.... But I also don't want to make the same mistake we made at her baptism, either, so anyone want to convince me NOT to keep her up later while we're there? (Also, how do your children react to changes in routine? I really do not want to get her SO dependent on a routine that she can't handle change, but I want a routine for the majority of her time.) Any advice?

THANKS AGAIN!!

emschwar

06-30-2005, 06:36 AM

Melissa - if it was me, I wouldn't keep her up. You might be able to get away with it one night, but more than that, and I think her sleep will suffer. Just be firm with your family and tell them that 6 is bedtime, and that's that. You're the mom and they need to respect your decisions.

Also, she's young enough that she still may need to eat during the night. She'll also be hitting a growth spurt soon, which'll mean more food. Heck, Noah's 14 months and still rarely can get through the night without eating. :rolleyes: Some of that may be habit, but he does have a pretty fast metabolism.

Congrats on the good night last night! I hope you have more!

twinnyme

06-30-2005, 08:14 AM

Yeah, that's what I thought you'd say! :) Thanks, Emily. And I KNOW that DH will agree with you, too.

P.S. I do know I'm the mom, and part of it is my mom-guilt telling me that MY mom will barely know my child..... We see DH's family so much more - they've seen her every weekend the last 3 weeks. But that's just an emotional thing that I have to deal with. As the parent, I still have to protect my child. Thanks.

Phen

06-30-2005, 08:19 AM

Congratulations on the wonderful night!!

The overnight waking to eat...do you think it's really hunger waking her or habit? We noticed with Thomas (he was waking once a night at 5.5M to eat) that his overnight meal was more like he'd take a couple sucks off the bottle and then bat it away and start playing with our hands. He thought it was playtime at 2 in the freakin' morning!!

Anyhow, my point is that after we established that he was not waking hungry but instead to play, we used the Total Extinction for the overnights, and didn't go to him when he woke at 2 a.m. and called for a bottle. It took two nights of some indignant fussing (first night maybe 10 min., second night maybe 5 minutes, nothing third night), but we broke that 2 a.m. playtime habit.

That was the hardest, though...that total extinction. Don't let me fool you into thinking it was easy for me to do! It sucked listening to him cry. But I could tell by his cries that he was not hungry or hurt, just calling for us and a bit mad, so that helped me stay strong and not go to him.

~ phen

twinnyme

06-30-2005, 08:32 AM

Thanks, Phen.

To answer your question, I'm not sure now. I think it's just hunger but after what Emily said about Noah I'm not completely sure.... DH thinks it's hunger, but I really do think (on instinct) that it is a combination (though it IS more than just 1-2 sucks of the bottle like your Thomas.) She often does eat between 3-5 oz. at night when she does wake up. But I can't tell whether, if we somehow altered her "schedule," whether we could eliminate the nighttime feedings. I also know that before, she HAS slept 10-11 hour stretches w/o eating, but perhaps her metabolism IS changing or she is going through a growth spurt.

It's funny, a while back, DH was all for total extinction and I was not; now we've kind of reversed - though I think with him, it's the short-term goal (i.e. being able to sleep THAT particular night) he's thinking of whereas with me I think of the long-term goal (helping her sleep through the night on a regular basis, not just fixing the "problem" for that night). We have tried total extinction but it was more than 5-10 minutes, and we cannot stand that (though we have let it go longer a little bit). But we haven't been consistent about it, which I know is a mistake, and we have really only done it to GET her to sleep not in the middle of the night. I'm willing to try it, I think, and could somewhat bear it (keeping the long-term goal in mind) but DH doesn't seem willing to try it anymore. That's part of why we're planning to review HSHHC this weekend on our trip!

Our friends, who have a 9 month old, said they did Ferber at 5.5 months with their daughter and it worked after a couple of days. Although it's harder, I kind of like the total extinction better (mostly because according to Weissbluth, it's easier to get back into the routine doing total extinction after changes to the routine - like trips away!). They also told us that their doctor (who is our doctor) told us to not do until their daughter weighed 15 pounds. :confused: :confused: Becca is only 13 lb. 1 oz. right now - we have another appointment on July 8th for her six-month WBV. I plan to ask him then about this.

I can understand why with twins it's really necessary to have a schedule (I'm a twin myself - hence my "twinnyme" name) but I guess I feel a little like, it's only one baby, why can't I deal with it? (Sort of the "you're a bad mother if you can't get your baby to STTN" thing that I posted about a few messages back - why do you even have to do things like total extinction/cio/etc.; couldn't you have made this happen before this?) Sorry, just babbling here, but gearing up for that this weekend, too; I get nervous when we're around other people and we let her cry to sleep.... With just us, I'm fine about it, but with other people, I feel like they're always judging us. The first time I felt comfortable about it was when we had friends over a couple of weekends ago; they have a 20-month-old and a 1.5-month-old. The older boy took a nap at our place and he cried/babbled/shrieked for about 10 minutes, and they were completly blase about it - and said that's what he does all the time. He never sounded mad, just like that was his way, and they let him do it. I felt SO comfortable with them after that, but with other people, it's harder, especially our families - they're always judging one way or the other!

Thanks for the support, everyone!

maggieb

06-30-2005, 10:03 AM

twinnyme: I hope you don't mind me responding. I know how hard it is to make the decision to let your child cry or not. We went through the same thing when Helena was 10 mos old. I ended up hiring the Sleep Lady b/c things were so bad for us. Helena would get up several times at night and stay up. No amount of nursing, rocking, patting, etc. helped her go back to sleep. The plain truth for us was that she never, ever had a chance to learn to go to sleep on her own.

I know other people can be judgmental about letting your child cry, but they aren't in your shoes? KWIM? After the 10 mos of practically no sleep that I got, I really didn't care anymore about what others thought. I just knew that my DD, myself and my DH needed some sleep. And, more importantly, my DD needed to learn to go to sleep on her own and to soothe herself back to sleep. I feel like that's a lifelong lesson that is essential to a person's well-being.

It's soooooo tough, but the most important part is consistency. The more inconsistency that take place, the harder and harder it's going to be to eventually teach her to go to sleep on her own and stay asleep. My biggest suggestion is to make sure that she's completely healthy and that you have her ped's confirmation to go ahead. That way you will feeel more at ease. Also, you have to be totally ready. I was so ready that although the crying bothered me, I was able to keep in mind the end goal. You and DH really need to be on the same page to be able to support each other.

Good luck and I hope it didn't feel like I was giving you a lecture. I get very heated when I talk about sleep issues and judgmental people. No one knows what you are going through but you and your family. Please feel free to email me if you'd like more info about exactly how we proceeded with teaching her to go to sleep on her own and how to go back to sleep.

Maggie

twinnyme

06-30-2005, 10:50 AM

I don't mind at all, maggieb - in fact, I welcome and appreciate it. The more experienced moms that chime in, the better - and the same for those with questions. I tend to type quickly, so I can write a lot and feel like I'm monopolizing threads.... but vibrancy is important, and feedback is great!

I know we're being inconsistent and I know we're not on the same page (hence the discussion this weekend); that's kind of why I'm so gung-ho on this right now. We need to come up with a plan and STICK WITH IT! I wish that DH was going to be on vacation soon so we could do it then, because it'll be difficult for me to bear alone (he gets home pretty late) but it has to be done, though perhaps I'll just continue to put her to bed at 6-ish now, then after we go to our ped. appt. on July 8th start in earnest then.

I just knew that my DD, myself and my DH needed some sleep. And, more importantly, my DD needed to learn to go to sleep on her own and to soothe herself back to sleep. I feel like that's a lifelong lesson that is essential to a person's well-being.

Exactly! I subscribe to the theory that a well-rested FAMILY is a happy FAMILY. And I have suffered from insomnia myself for years, so I feel extremely concerned about setting the right sleep habits for Becca. That's kind of why I was introducing the bedtime routine - I was trying for consistency; I even wrote up a post-it of the steps in the routine that I keep at her bedside. :rolleyes: I'm trying! But the tip to shorten the routine (and still make it consistent) was a GREAT one for me (thanks again, em and phen) I'm learning to make consistency a priority for her - it IS difficult for me, because I am somewhat of a go-with-the-flow person (whenever my superorganized self isn't showing up!) and I was also trying to go with HER flow (at least what I thought was her flow, but now I'm learning new cues she's giving me).

Does Helena sleep well now? :) And can you share tips of what you've learned that you plan to do with Marisa now? :) By the way, congratulations!! July is almost here, and I was born in July - so it's a great month for a birthday. :D

Thanks again for chiming in!

Franni

06-30-2005, 11:00 AM

I would like to second maggieb sentiments. I was very hard on myself, feeling like I failed my baby when I finally decided to let her CIO, but it has been a sanity saver for us.

She got so bad that she was only sleeping in 20 minute increments and it would take another 20 minutes to get her to sleep. She is so much better now though. My only "gripe" with CIO is that when her schedule gets disrupted especially by illness, the training starts over. It's not usually as bad as the first time.

At her best, she slept 11 hours straight. Then she got sick. We had to retrain and now she sleeps about 7-9 before she wants to eat.

karilynne_97

06-30-2005, 03:25 PM

This is such an awesome thread, and I've already gotten tons of advice just by reading, but I have a question that I'm hoping you ladies can help me out with.

DD is 3 mos old, and has been pretty much sleeping through the night since 6-8 wks, with a few night wakings here and there. This is my 2nd week back to work, so DD started daycare last week, although she's been with my mom this week because my daycare (my cousin) committed to a week of Day Camp before committing to watching DD; my point is there have been changes in her life.

Anyways, all last week DD was sleeping through the night until last weekend when she became horribly gassy and constipated; she's been on formula for 3 feedings a day for about 4 weeks now, and she's started elimanating BF feedings (refusing my boob). So, all this week she's been waking between 2-3am with gas, then wants to eat.

When she sleeps through the night we wake her at 5am to eat and feed her every 3 hours. We begin her nighttime routine around 7:30-8pm which includes a bath, massage, book (if she's still awake), feeding, rocking, swaddle and finally to sleep around 9pm.

Question: she starts getting really tired around 6-7pm to the point where she dozes off while in the Snugli with Daddy (her fav place!). Should I put her to bed earlier? We've already cut out her 11pm feeding, and we're not comfortable cutting out her 8-8:30pm feeding, so if I put her to bed earlier, should I wake her for her last feeding? She eats 4oz at each feeding so cutting another feeding out wouldn't be good.

DH thinks we should put her to bed early then wake her around 10pm for a last feeding, but Dr suggested not waking her up. I would really like to help her to get back to sleeping through the night. The gas & constipation have seemed to go for now; there was a question as to whether or not we would be changing her formual to Soy, but changed to Dr Brown's bottles which have seemed to help with the gassiness and she's pooped up a storm yesterday and today (who ever thought they would be happy to see poop! :rolleyes: ).

Anyways, sorry for rambling. Any suggestions would be appriecated.

edited to add: DD has 2-3 naps for 1-2 hrs a day (although today my Mom says she's not naping for more than 30 mins at a time, little bugger!)

emschwar

06-30-2005, 05:09 PM

karilynne - this is just me, and not everyone agrees, but I personally don't believe in waking a baby to eat, unless there's a medical reason to do so. My opinion is, if she's hungry, she'll wake up and let you know. If she's getting tired at 6, I'd put her to bed then.

Of course, you can take everything I say with a big old grain of salt, since Noah still doesn't STTN at 14 months. (We've had some weight loss though, so he really did need to wake up to eat for a while.)

twinnyme

07-01-2005, 04:44 AM

karilynne_97 - I have never woken DD to feed her, but then I didn't have to. She fed basically around the clock at the beginning! :rolleyes: Just an idea, though - maybe if you put her to bed earlier (like when she's getting tired at 6-7) she'll wake on her own. I took the advice of some nice women on here the other day and started putting DD to bed when she was tired (6:10 on Wed., 6:30 last night), and though she woke up both nights, the first night was at 2:40 and last night was at 8:50 p.m. so perhpas your daughter will wake on her own to eat... and you won't have to worry.

Btw, I think she woke last night because she ate her last bottle at daycare at 4-something, then I fed her solids when we got home (6:00 - I ran late yesterday because of holiday traffic - already!), a small bottle (only took 1.5 oz. - was probably full from the solids; I usually space it out a little more), and then probably woke at 8:50 because she'd taken such a small bottle at 6.... She ate only 2.5 oz. then (which brought her up to her usual total of about 27 oz. for the day). But it was still better than her waking at 2:40 a.m. to eat!!! In fact, this pattern will work just fine for me if it's what we have (and I figure that 8:50 isn't really "night" - though anyone care to comment on whether we SHOULD treat it as "night"?) from now on.... She then slept through from about 9:15 to 6:00!!! Yay!

twinnyme

07-02-2005, 04:25 AM

Another successful night - though she went to bed a little later, at 7, she went with no protest, and slept through until 5:30. This timing would be perfect for us if she continues it. Loving it! Well, we're off on our car trip to NY, so have a good holiday, everyone!

karilynne_97

07-02-2005, 02:45 PM

Last night we woke DD up at 10:30pm for a feeding and she slept until 5am! :D I really think she's needing that extra feeding. Now, if we can just get her to stop being gassy. We're getting ready to switch her to Soy, but that's a different thread!

curlywig

07-04-2005, 08:06 PM

Okay, I'm royally confused. DS is 11+ weeks old (born one week after EDD), and from what I've heard, he is too young to ST. But then HSHHC has a whole section on 0-4 months.

I thought HSHHC was all about not CIO, but it appears to be (from the 0-4 mo section I read). Maybe strategies for older children differ?

DS is an AWFUL napper, so that is what we're working on first. At night, he goes to sleep around 7pm (we start his bedtime ritual at about 5:30), and wakes twice to eat (FF) before rising at about 6am for the day. One problem we have is that DS is somewhat like the Princess and the Pea when it comes to burps. If there is even a tiny one in there, he wakes up and fusses until you get it out.

BTW, does anyone know when babies develop the ability to burp themselves? I'm guessing it's when they become more mobile?

TIA.

ETA: Should we continue to go in and burp him apprx. 4-5 times after putting him down (he starts to fuss then cry). Tonight we put him down at 6:30, and it's now 7:15 and I've burped him at least 4 times (after thoroughly burping while feeding). Urgh.

twinnyme

07-09-2005, 07:44 AM

curlywig - I also thought that HSHHC was confusing because although Weissbluth seems to not recommend CIO for under 4 months old, he has MANY examples in the testimonies about under-4-month-olds. I don't have an answer for you. We started it a little bit at around 4.5 months.

I like your description of the Princess & the Pea burps... too funny - though I'm sure it's not fun when it's happening. When my mother was here in late May (DD was 4.5 months) she said I didn't have to burp her religiously anymore. So now I only burp her when she wiggles a lot, usually through most of the bottle (5-7 oz.) and she often burps on her own (sometimes many minutes later, which always surprises me).

I'm here to report on our success with Becca... so far so good; the earlier bedtime definitely seems to work. We stuck to our guns on our trip to NY to see my family, which was hard because they rarely see her, but it works! She's slept from 7 to 5-5:30 every day and last night went to bed at 6 without a peep and slept until 5:30. It's been about a week now, and it's a dream. It was hard in NY because we had to leave Central Park at 6 p.m. in broad daylight to go back to the apartment with her to do the bedtime routine. (But my sister and BIL understood, as they have had terrible sleep problems with their 20-month-old.) And on the 4th of July, we did let her stay up later (until about 7) but she still went to sleep okay (my father then woke her up, :mad: but that's another story!) And last night we really wanted her to meet our friends with 3 kids who came over to visit (they're from another state but were in town) but she went to bed unusually at 6 (had immunizations yesterday so I'm thinking that may be why) and they didn't see her. But, having 3 kids, they completely understood - maybe at Christmas when they'll be back.

Anyway, the consistency seems to be working! And we saw the ped. yesterday who said now that she's shown she can STTN without eating, to not feed her again in the middle of the night if she wakes up. He didn't quite say what to do instead but we'll figure that out if it happens again.... For now, I'm hoping it doesn't!

Thanks to everyone who gave me advice about our situation! I really appreciate it.

emschwar

07-09-2005, 09:33 PM

He didn't quite say what to do instead but we'll figure that out if it happens again.... For now, I'm hoping it doesn't!
Sorry, I just had to laugh at this! This is our exact problem! Noah definitely doesn't need to eat in the middle of the night, but it's the easiest way to get him back to sleep! (And sometimes the only way :rolleyes: )

twinnyme

07-10-2005, 06:35 AM

Sorry, I just had to laugh at this! This is our exact problem! Noah definitely doesn't need to eat in the middle of the night, but it's the easiest way to get him back to sleep! (And sometimes the only way :rolleyes: )

Yeah, so far, we've created a HUGE association between the bottle and sleeping but we'll see how it goes. I love how he didn't say much. I'm starting to think this ped. is very close to the chest about a lot of things - he's very much on the fence about everything, very careful to say only neutral things. But I guess he's a professional and that's the way it should be. We'll just continue to figure it out as we go! ;)

Bernie & Matt

07-12-2005, 01:25 PM

We're in the midst of moving and I can't get ahold of my copy of Weissbluth. Can someone fill in the blanks about what he says for napping for an almost 13 mo old? How long should naps be? When to transition to one nap instead of two? About how long after getting up in the morning is the first nap? How long after the first nap until the second?

TIA!!

twinnyme

08-10-2005, 10:20 AM

Bernie & Matt - I hope you got the answers you needed (and I hope your move went well).

I'm back with a question: What do you do about early wakers?? We have been doing very well on the STTN issue - DD has STTN consistently (from between 6 and 7 to between 5 and 6) since July 1 (we had a couple of middle-of-the-night feedings because she was sick and only taking in about 15 oz. during the day). Anyway, I'm hoping that lasts.... but in the last few days, DD has begun to wake earlier. Two nights ago, it was 4:15 a.m. and last night it was 4:45 a.m. She went to bed about 7:30 both nights. Before that, she'd been going to sleep around 6:45 p.m. consistently for quite a while. I don't know how to push this back to her usual waking time of between 5 and 6 a.m. (which is already early enough!!). The good thing is that at least she goes back to sleep after the 4-ish a.m. feeding.

One thing that's changed is that for the last two weeks I have had a new schedule - I started a new job and it's part-time, so I'm home full days on Mondays and Fridays, so I have 4 consecutive days with her. But the first week her sleeping pattern stayed the same.... it's only in the last couple of nights that it's changed. Also, she is becoming much more mobile (she'll be 7 months on Sunday), not crawling yet or walking but definitely trying and getting frustrated. She's trying out a lot of new skills, which I know sometimes makes a difference in sleep patterns.

I believe Weissbluth (I need to refresh myself as well) says to not go in before 6 a.m. but I just can't see myself doing that. She's actually becoming MUCH better at playing independently in her crib for a while after waking (and before naps) but she still cries when she wakes around 4 and wants to eat. Should I consider this middle-of-the-night? She has slept about 9 hours and is napping well doing the day. I'm thinking I have to work hard at putting her to bed earlier again - the late bedtime crept up over the last few days - that may be the solution. Or maybe she's just an early riser; I mean, it's not like she was waking at 7 or 8 and all of a sudden it's 4 or 5 - she's always woken between 5 and 6.

Any suggestions? Your suggestions all worked so well last time, so I appreciate any input you have. (I tried to find a thread on "early wakers" - I could have sworn I saw one at some point but despite an exhaustive search I'm not finding it; perhaps it was on the other site - which I also searched though their search is a little cumbersome now.)

TIA!

Renrel

08-10-2005, 11:25 AM

One thing to try is making sure all or as much light is blocked out as you can. We put blanket over the window in the winter due to drafts and left two of them up to block sunlight in the summer due to a similiar problem. We also leave a fan on in the bathroom or the one on the A/C in DS room to keep morning noice from waking DS during this light sleep time. I also try leaving a few books or small toys in the crib for him to amuse himself with if he gets up before us.

twinnyme

08-10-2005, 11:38 AM

Thanks, Renrel - those are all great suggestions. It doesn't really seem light yet at 4:15 or 4:45, though, or at least not the last few days- it's kind of light by the time I'm done feeding her, but she still goes back to sleep. I have thought about getting room-darkening shades before, but we had seemed to solve the sleep issues and so I never did. I like the idea of the toys a lot - especially since she's already used to playing with toys in her crib - but when did you start putting them in there? I thought we weren't supposed to put toys, stuffed animals, etc. in the crib - but maybe some books with rattles on them? Those seem pretty safe. She does sleep with a lovey blanket/toy and I have found her playing with that in the morning. She also has the Fisher-Price aquarium and a mobile (which sometimes moves b/c of the fan and I've seen her watching it) and a Kick n Play piano which I've been hearing more and more of in the middle of the night and the mornings.

karilynne_97

08-10-2005, 01:12 PM

twinnyme-

Gosh, I wish I could help you. Have there been any changes that might cause this, like teething? I'm at a loss.

Maybe you can help me with DD's situation: at her 4 mo appt, Dr said no more swaddling. Ever since then she hasn't slept straight through the night (she was when she was swaddled). We try to make the room comfortable (not too cold, not too warm), fill her tummy before bed, have a consistent nighttime routine, make sure the room is dark, have white noise going on in the background yet she is consistently waking up at least once between 1-4am! We've tried a week of not waking her up for a "dream feed" since she was waking up at 2am regardless, but that hasn't helped.

Feeding her is sometimes the only way to get her to go back asleep. I've rocked her and she'll fall asleep, but will wake up when I put her down (this only happens in the middle of the night), I've brought her to bed with us and she just wants to play.

I haven't tried an earlier bed time yet, mainly because I can't figure out to make her feeding schedule work with her bed time. Right now she's eating every 3 hours. Daycare feeds her at 4, before DH picks her up to go home, so that would mean that she would need to eat at 7 so how would a 6:30pm bed time work out? Plus, she doesn't seem tired at all until 7. I'm at a total loss.

But, I do have good news! I've finally got her to fall asleep for the night without having to eat. I've changed the order of our nighttime routine. We now eat, then have a bath, massage, read a book, and rock to sleep. It takes a little longer but she can do it!

Oh, and I just remembered: when she wakes up in the middle of the night, I don't wait for her to cry. I think that if I can get in there quickly, I can give her her pacifier and she'll go back to sleep. Lately she sees me and wakes up. Maybe I've just answered my own questions: let her cry before going in to her.

twinnyme

08-10-2005, 02:24 PM

karilynne_97 - actually, now that you mention it, she MAY be teething. She's drooling more than ever.... However, she's been drooling for MONTHS on end (literally) so I don't know that she's actually teething now. But I have been thinking that, so maybe that's it. If she is, I'm lucky if it's only the night wakings; she's hardly been fussy at all.

You may not like my answer about your DD's situation, though you did allude to crying it out. We did do some sleep training/crying it out and that did help for a while - but the thing that seems to help most is getting her to bed early. I think I just posted in another thread recently that for a while our bedtime routine contained everything but the kitchen sink - books, bath, lotion/massage, diaper change/putting on PJ's, 15-minute quiet play time, brushing her hair, and bottle - when I cut out everything but the bottle with the lovey (she holds the lovey while she eats the last bottle and then I put her to bed with it) and put her to bed earlier, things actually got better and she went to bed earlier. (For a while, she just cried way too much when going to bed, and I finally figured out that she was tired earlier, but I was waiting too long to put her to bed.) I hear you about the daycare/home schedule, though - for a while there, I was picking her up at 5, bringing her home, and basically giving her a bottle and putting her to bed. I hated that. But now she's slowly delayed sleeping until 6:45 so at least we get to see her a little.... (and I'm now working part-time, so I see her even more).

That's great that you've gotten her to bed without a bottle, though. I'm worried that our "routine" will eventually create a bottle monster - i.e. she won't be able to go to sleep without it.

I'm curious: why did your ped. say no swaddling after 4 months?? We stopped around then (or earlier, I don't remember exactly) because DD was kicking out of it, but if your DD wasn't escaping it, why can't you use it any longer? I know of babies who've been swaddled much longer than 4 months... and if it had still worked for us, we'd still be doing it!

karilynne_97

08-10-2005, 03:33 PM

I'm not sure why the Dr said no swaddling, she just said it was time. I think it's because she's rolling over and if swaddled she won't be able to push herself up. She used to kick out of the swaddle and/or get her hands free, but that was in the morning. Taking a step back, she's actually doing really well without being swaddled; she'll sleep from 7:30pm to 2-4am, which is more than 5 hrs, so it can be considered STTN, so really I can't complain. I just miss the days of her sleeping until 6 or 7am. I could always revert back and swaddle her and put her in a sleep positioner; I just don't know!

DD's starting to teeth, so I think that's also the problem. The last few weeks have been horrible. She'll be great one min then crying in pain the next. Last night I think I saw the white bump on her gums, so hopefully that sucker will pop through soon.

If your DD's teething, that might be it. How's her appetite? I hear that if they're teething their appetite goes down because it hurts their gums to suck. So, if she's not eating as much during the day, she could be hungry.

I keep reminding myself what I've heard, and read, in the past about sleep habits and infants: just when you think you've got it down, they go and change it on you! :D

twinnyme

08-11-2005, 03:49 AM

I keep reminding myself what I've heard, and read, in the past about sleep habits and infants: just when you think you've got it down, they go and change it on you! :D

Exactly - just like everything else they do!

Well, it's 5:50 a.m. here, and DD has been up since 4:49. She woke at 4:49, I laid in bed for a couple of minutes - and by 4:53 she was quiet again and I heard her Kick & Play piano go on. Usually I go right in and say "We hear you Becca. Good morning. I'll be right back with a bottle." Today I didn't and she was quiet until 5:07 - so that gave me 20 more minutes in bed, her some time to learn to soothe herself, and got us to the between 5 and 6 a.m. time. I don't know that she'll ever wake up later than 6 a.m. (though maybe when she's a teenager!) but I'm happy with how things worked out today. Also, she went to bed at 6:45 last night again - guess it goes back and forth.... I also left a few small toys in her crib, and she has played with those a little.

karilynne_97

08-11-2005, 09:26 AM

We just put a toy mirror in Kassidy's crib and when I went to her this morning she had her nose on the mirror talking to herself. Too cute!

So, we put Kassidy to be at 7pm, which is a little early for us, but we're trying out the early bed time, and she woke up at 12:00AM!! UGH! So, we fed her and she went right back to sleep until I went in there at 6am; who knows how long she had been awake playing with her relfection in the mirror, but a least she was quite. I think we're going back to the dream feeds.

On a side note: I talked to Kassidy's DR yesterday and she gave us the go ahead to start cereal. No veggies or fruit just yet; she said to wait until 6 mos before introducing them. Maybe the extra calories will help her sleep longer. Wishful thinking? ;)

twinnyme

08-11-2005, 09:30 AM

Sorry the earlier bedtime didn't work for Kassidy! Guess not every kid's the same, huh?? :D

I sometimes want to sit in Becca's room in the morning before she awakes to see exactly how long she CAN entertain herself, I think it's longer than I realize because I don't wake until she cries. But I think she does a pretty good job of it - I just don't know it because I'm not in there when she's awake and calm; I just hear the explosion!

I have heard that extra calories help but I never really believed it. However, Becca has been on rice cereal since 5.5 months and is just now (7 months) getting proficient at it. For the last few weeks she's been eating 28-32 oz. a day plus a couple of solids meals. But she started STTN before then, so I'm not sure it really conincides. I do know that she ALWAYS has 8-8.5 oz. in her first morning bottle, and then the rest of her bottles are usually 5 or 6 oz.

ETA: I love the image of Kassidy with her nose to the mirror. Same here - she has a mirror in her crib in addition to the aquarium and kick-and-play piano (and mobile, but she can't activate that herself, of course!) and she is JUST starting to play with them more, which is great.

karilynne_97

08-11-2005, 09:50 AM

If I had known that she would enjoy the mirror, or toys in her crib (safe ones, of course) so much I would've put some in there sooner!

I wish I could watch what Kassidy does too. I've thought about getting one of those video camera monitors, but thought it would be a better buy when she's older. DH, and his twin brother, escapted from their cribs when they were 2 and were found at 6am at the park by their neighbors (not only did they escape, but they managed to unlock the front door and open it), so if history repeats itself, we'll need the video monitor! :D

twinnyme

08-11-2005, 10:03 AM

DH, and his twin brother, escapted from their cribs when they were 2 and were found at 6am at the park by their neighbors (not only did they escape, but they managed to unlock the front door and open it), so if history repeats itself, we'll need the video monitor! :D

Oh, my god. Yeah, I sat Becca up in her crib yesterday but then thought, what am I, crazy? I'm just teaching her to stand up sooner in her crib and be able to escape from it!! Btw, I'm a twin, too - have a twin sister! Boy, I guess when you have a mischievous playmate already built in, you could get into a lot of trouble!

vjel

08-11-2005, 10:30 AM

anyone recently been thru or currently going thru the transition from 2 naps to 1? how did you go about the transition? and what is your dc's sleep schedule (what time s/he wakes, naps and bedtime)?

my dd is almost 15mos. and I am trying to transition her. Weissbluth discusses this in his book but I feel I need more insight from those who've been thru it. Her AM nap isn't disappearing per se, but her PM nap started so late (3-3:30) that if she woke at 4:30-5, she wouldn't go to bed til 9 or 10pm. When she would go to bed late, her AM naps would be long and I hate waking her EVERY day. I know Weissbluth suggests this to preserve the nap schedule, but my kid is NOT happy when she is awoken from a deep sleep! :rolleyes: And doing this on a regular basis can not be good for her. Plus she has been sleeping later (til 7-7:30am) which now throws off the AM nap. So I've been trying to get her to take one really good nap a day. The first couple days she did great, 3hr naps and bed at 8pm, no problem. Now it's a bit of a struggle. 2 naps don't go over well or aren't long enough for her to be well rested. She REFUSES to go to bed any earlier than 8pm so an earlier bedtime when she doesn't nap well is NOT an option. Its like she knows its not 8pm and will just scream and inevitably vomit. (btw, we do/have let her CIO but when she screams a certain way, we get her b/c its not "normal" for her). Any tips on how you transitioned would be great!

Also, I find during this transition time that lunch is really screwd up. She is usually so tired by lunch time (anywhere from 11-11:30) that she won't eat much. So usually lunch turns into a heavy snack and I'll feed her another heavy snack when she wakes. Was this a problem for you too?

Any help would be greatly appreciated! TIA!

Franni

08-11-2005, 10:49 AM

For the first 4 months, we did Happiest Baby on the Block. Our swaddled little baby slept really well. However at around 4 months of age, she started not wanting to be swaddled and really resisting sleep. We went from 4 hours sleep stretches to 15 minutes.

so we ended up doing Weissbluth. Although I have always said that I will never CIO and being a former teacher, I always thought that it would be easy. Well, it was so not the case. We have done NCSS and everything else to no avail. Our last (and only viable) resort was to CIO and it worked. It has worked for us. Although there are still many times when I feel heartbroken from having to do it, I believe that there shouldn't be a condemnation of the method. DD became such a happier and more engaged baby when she was able to sleep.

twinnyme

08-25-2005, 07:44 AM

* bump *

and a quick update: Becca has been STTN now going on two months (since July 1st) with a couple of exceptions/night-wakings due to teething and one week of the stomach flu. Yay!

curlywig

08-25-2005, 08:32 AM

Congrats twinnyme! Go Becca!

Does anyone have any suggestions for a baby (4.5 mos) who wakes at about 3-3:30 am, and just wants to be up? We have been slowly reducing the ounces he gets overnight, and now he's only getting 2.5-3 oz or so overnight. So if he fusses for a bit, we get up and feed him, but then it takes at least an hour for him to go back to sleep. He'll stay in the crib and talk and chat, which then turns to fussing and crying.

I'm hesitant to put many toys in the crib since he isn't rolling over yet. Unlike what my mom suggests, I know a LATER bedtime isn't the answer. DS goes to sleep at about 6pm.

TIA.

LeslieR

09-06-2005, 10:54 AM

I've been trying to read HSHHC, but it's difficult with a newborn. I have a question about the 1-2 hours of wakefulness. Does that mean the baby should only be awake that long before needing to nap again? And if so, what age does Weissbluth recommend this up to? TIA!

Megande

09-06-2005, 10:58 AM

Yes, Leslie, that is what it means. Something I didn't know until later (it is on pg 232), he says that the interval of wakefulness *plus* soothing should be less than 2 hours. I know he has this rule until at least 4 months. I think that after that things change a little. (But DS is only 10 weeks, so I haven't gotten that far :)).

LeslieR

09-06-2005, 11:05 AM

Thanks Megan! I consider myself to be a pretty intelligent person, but I find his book pretty difficult to read. It's so textbook like, ya know?

*off to go check out page 232!* :)

Megande

09-06-2005, 12:30 PM

I know what you mean, Leslie. I tried to read it when I was pregnant and I didn't get very far at all! Now I swear by it. Here is what I did. I ignored everything and started at Chapter 5. It has a little section for every age group, and I just read the one that is currently applicable to DS. It is much easier to pay attention because it is short, and I know it applies to us, so it is more interesting.

Hope that helps!

maren

09-07-2005, 11:33 AM

Hi Momma's, I'm hoping some of you experienced mom's can help us. I'm getting close to my wits end. Our baby girl Reilly is 4 + 1/2 weeks old and will not sleep unless someone is holding her. We're in sleep hell. Even if we wait until she's completely out to put her down, she always wakes up within a couple minutes. I really want her to learn to settle herself to sleep, but nothing seems to be working. We've tried putting her next to me in bed, in her bassinet, her bouncy seat, her car seat and her swing - none work.

We nurse her, swaddle her, give her a pacifier and wait until she's almost out to put her down. She'll start fussing within a few minutes and quickly erupts into full blown screams. While I'm not comfortable with CIO, esp. b/c she's so little, on the recommendation of our pediatrician last night, I tried to let her cry for about 2 minutes while I sat right there with my hand on her and my face close to hers, shushing her. This actually looked like it was starting to work, before my husband made a loud noise that woke her up and we couldn't get her down again. Then she was really crying for so long that I just let her fall asleep in my arms again, as I figured she'd had enough for one night.

If anyone has some tips they'd be willing to share I'd really love to hear them. I'm pretty much awake for most of the night and since I'm physically holding her when I am sleeping, I'm not getting any real decent sleep. Please help. :)

jki

09-07-2005, 02:30 PM

maren: I think she's still a little young to be putting herself to sleep. Why don't you wait until she's in a DEEP sleep to put her down?

My DS was like that - I held him for every. single. nap until he was 4 months old. It sucked because he needed for me to be in motion. If I sat or stopped walking, he'd wake up. This also meant I was NEVER able to take a nap while he did. The sleep deprivation killed me. The good news is that after 4 months, he got a LOT better and after 6 months, I could just throw him into his crib wide awake and walk out.

For bedtime, we would spend up to an HOUR rocking DS until he fell asleep. Sometimes, we'd put him down, he'd wake up and then we'd spend ANOTHER hour rocking.

Have you tried music? We have a CD that we play for DD and DS and they both associate that music with bedtime. We have different CDs for nap and bed.

Do you have a consistent bedtime routine?

Have you tried letting her sleep on your chest? That's what I do with DD and it's the only way I can get a nap in. This way, I can also soothe her before she wakes up completely.

If the pacifier falls out, try a bigger one.

Have you tried letting her fuss it out again? I never did that with DS and I regret it. DD gets to fuss it out on her own (because I am busy changing DS's diaper or something like that) and she often falls asleep on her own.

That's all I can think of for now. Hang in there. It will get better.

LeslieR - The 1-2 hours of wakefulness rule applies until they are quite old. DS is 14 months old now and even at 10 months, he could barely stay awake for 2+ hours in the morning. And this was after 12 hours of sleep! After his midmorning nap, he could usually stay awake longer, but I'd never let him stay up more than 3-4 hours.

LeslieR

09-07-2005, 04:10 PM

jki, thanks for posting that. Do the naps then become shorter as they get older? Luke has been catnapping the past couple days and it's driving me crazy. It seems like all I do is change him, feed him, try to get him to sleep if he didn't fall asleep at the breast, repeat. :rolleyes:

karilynne_97

09-07-2005, 04:28 PM

Hi maren-

I would HIGHLY suggest getting "The Happiest Baby on the Block" by Dr. Harvey Karp. It's all about the 5 S's:

Swaddling
Swinging
Shhhhh'ing (white noise)
Side-lying
Sucking

Anyways, works wonders!!! If you can, try getting the DVD rather than the book. It's easier to understand the method if you can "see" it rather than trying to "imagine" it when reading the book.

twinnyme

09-08-2005, 06:43 AM

We're in sleep hell. Even if we wait until she's completely out to put her down, she always wakes up within a couple minutes. I really want her to learn to settle herself to sleep, but nothing seems to be working. We've tried putting her next to me in bed, in her bassinet, her bouncy seat, her car seat and her swing - none work.

Maren - I'm so sorry you're going through this. We had the same problem. It is tough, isn't it? DD was the same way - and also like LeslieR's DS, she also catnapped. It's a tough combination. The only thing I can say is that time does make it better and it is good to help her learn to soothe herself but maybe not yet? It's too bad that the motion things aren't working for you - luckily, they did for us, and when we were desperate enough, she'd sleep in the swing, the bouncy seat (she took ALL her naps in one of those when I was still on leave). Once we even swaddled her, put her in the bouncy seat, and when she fell asleep, moved the whole thing to the crib (my mother's suggestion).

We also did the shhinggg thing and used white noise a lot. A few times I got her to sleep on her changing table (when she was very young and couldn't move) by running the hairdryer. Yes, a big use of electricity but worth it for my sanity, and then I found a white noise CD that has recordings of things like the hairdryer, vacuum cleaner, etc., which worked as well (and was less expensive than running the hairdryer for an hour at a time!). We also have Sleep Sheep (http://www.dreamtimebaby.com/slshbyclb.html) , which worked very well, too (it's still on her crib but we don't use it anymore).

Also, I second the recommendation of the Karp book. I read both that and Weissbluth and used the applicable parts for our situation. In fact, I'm back about our current situation:

After STTN for 2 months straight (thank god), DD has now begun to wake up at night again, and it's getting tough. But we're thinking it may be a growth spurt, too. Of course, I've read somewhere (I think it may have been Weissbluth; I forgot to check last night and now I'm at work) that sometimes people start making excuses for when their child begins to have sleep problems – oh, it’s just a growth spurt. Let’s see, the history: We spent the weekend at the IL’s and thought we could go off routine slightly (probably our biggest mistake - which we take full responsibility for). She still took naps (which are still sporadic) but on both Friday and Saturday nights she slept 8 to 6 (usual sleep time is 6/7 to 5/6). We got home Sunday and she’s been up every night since, first at 3 a.m., then 2 a.m., again at 3 a.m. (was her first day back at daycare which we were hoping would help), and last night went to bed at 6:45, woke at 9:40 and ate 7 oz., woke at 4:20 and ate 7 oz (in 9 minutes, which is a record for her), then slept again until about 6:30. She ate a total of 34 oz. yesterday plus 2.5 jars of baby food – which, again, is a record for her. If it is a growth spurt, we’re okay with that, because she’s actually only at the 10% in weight and we want her to gain more – but not at the risk of sleep deprivation to her and to us again. Daycare is working on getting her to take more naps during the day (sometimes she takes one there, sometimes two, sometimes three – all over the board; same when I’m home with her Friday through Monday) and also maybe to eat bigger bottles (I gave bottles of 8 oz. today instead of the usual 6 oz.). My theory is that “sleep begets sleep” (as Weissbluth says and as has worked for us in the past). I am really concerned about her breaking the STTN habit, and frankly, don’t want to go back to “sleep hell” (as Maren so aptly put it).

All of you ladies have been SO helpful in the past. Any thoughts?

One other thing…. She CAN hold her bottle now (finally) and 90% of the time does. But she still likes to be in our arms. She did drink her bottle once this weekend while laying in her carriage, but when I’ve tried to put her on the floor on the boppy to hold it and drink it on her own (2 or 3 times now), she’s screamed each time. So the night wakings COULD still be a comfort thing, even though she is eating so much and so quickly.

TIA, as always!

catmom

09-08-2005, 07:25 AM

Hi, all. Just need some reassurance here. DD is 5.5 (almost 6) months old, and sleeps great at night. The problem is, she is an awful napper. Sometimes she goes 12 hours with no nap! Frequently what happens is that I can get her to sleep nursing, but when I try to pick her up and put her in her crib, she wakes up and that's the end of that. I simply cannot put her in her crib awake during the day, it just does not work. At bedtime, I can occasionally put her down awake if she's really, really tired. The problem is, because she's not napping her bedtime keeps getting earlier and earlier, and her wake-up time keeps getting earlier and earlier. Currently she is going to bed between 4:30-5:30 and waking up 12 hours later. Earlier, she was going to bed at 6:00-6:30, which was much better, but now that the naps have gotten so bad (and they weren't great before) she just can't stay up that late. I don't even want to know when she's going to be getting up once daylight savings time ends! I think the only solution is for her to start napping better, but I don't know what to do. I have read all the sleep books, but mostly they offer advice on how to get the baby to fall asleep without a prop. I can't get her to fall asleep WITH a prop! Is it just going to be like this until she's 5? The lack of routine is killing me, and I need a break during the day every once in a while!

twinnyme

09-08-2005, 08:25 AM

Hi catmom. I don't know about routine, but I can give you some reassurance. Becca was a catnapper and also a sporadic napper. While she still naps sporadically (and by that I mean, whenever she feels like it), her naps have gotten much longer. Sometimes she takes two 2-hour naps. But I have to be pretty much at home all day in order to coax her into the naps(on Mondays and Fridays, when I'm home with her; as I said below, at daycare, she's all over the board, though from the beginning, they have been excellent in getting her to sleep for naps - she'd NEVER napped in her crib until she started daycare). And also sometimes I try too early (within the 2+ hours window) and she just refuses to go down but then two hours later she'll take a 2-hour nap. So I try not to get frustrated when she doesn't go to nap right away (doesn't always work) and just hope she will eventually. I also hope to insitute more of a regular nap schedule (e.g. she naps at 9 and 1) but so far, it seems to have eluded us! DD will be 8 months next week, and I'd say her naps didn't stabilize until around your DD's age. Now that she's FINALLY napping (thank god), our next step is to try to create a consistent nap schedule, time-wise. Now if only we could get her back on her fabulous night-time routine!!! :confused:

Cosmogirl

09-11-2005, 11:11 AM

I have a little question here.

My son is just about 2 months old. I can see that he is getting into a pattern type of sleep now. I nurse him at around 8-9, it takes about an hour-1 1/2 hour. That is his "fussy" period. Then he sleeps for about 4 hours. He wakes up, but most of the time, he doesn't scream, but just cry a little, and fusses in his bed. I don't wait for him to cry like a madman, I feed him. It takes about 30 minutes, and he falls back to sleep again.
Then he sleeps for about 3 hours, and wakes up at about 6-7 hours am. I feed him again, and then he sleeps again until around 9-10 (depending at what time he woke up...)
So reading W. today, I saw that with a easy baby you can try to start working on a pattern sleep with nap and night sleep. But reading p 221 made me wonder...
This girl is 2 months old. At day 63, she she woke up at 3am and fell asleep until 8:30.(and I don,t think the mom nursed her...) And then at day 64 she slept form 8:30 to 5. So starting at those time, she stopped nursing during the night??? When my boy wakes up at night, is it really because he is hungry??? Or he is just not able to fall back asleep on his own??

My other qurstion is: when I put him to bed during the day, how long should he nap?? He just napped for 45 mintues, is it enough? If not, what should I do, leave him there, and try to soothe him back to sleep??

Thanks girls for your help!

Cosmogirl

09-11-2005, 01:38 PM

Ok, I guess i'm not done with the questions!

Finally, he slept 2:15! When I was writing my previous post, he was whimpering, and I thought he was going to wake up. But I deciede to wait a bit, and he fell asleep on his own. Around 2:45 pm he started whimpering again, this time a little louder then the previous time. So I thought he was awake. I think I made a mstake, and that is what is leading me to my other question.

-How do you know he is really awake, rather then just in the supercial sleep where they whimp sometimes?? I went in too early, and he was still tired, and not really ready to be awaken. :( I guess i'm learning too. SO I feed him and put him back to bed. But I realise that I don,t know when to go!

-W. talkes about 2 methods about how to soothe them to sleep. Method A and B. I'm doing method A. But when he screams and cries after I put him in bed, what am I supposed to do?? I think he is still too little to CIO, but I want to start being consistent with my soothing method. So I don,t now how to react at those times...

Thanks again for your help! :D

Megande

09-11-2005, 08:10 PM

Cosmogirl - A lot of this sleep stuff is personal preference of the parent and also what works for one baby really may not work for another. But I'll tell you what we do, and you can see if any of it works for William!

When DS was around your son's age (about a month ago), he would wake up like William does and fuss a little, but not full out cry. I would lay in bed and listen to him for a few minutes to see if he was going to settle himself back to sleep. If he just kept fussing, I'd leave him and he would usually go back to sleep. If he progressed to full on crying, I'd go in and feed him. I'm comfortable with letting him fuss a little, and it sounds like you are too, so maybe you could try waiting a little while (probably no more than 10 minutes) and see if he will go back to sleep. It worked very well for us. Does William sleep in your room? I had to move Dean into his crib in his own room before either of us started getting really good sleep.

With naps, W. says that it they may not get into a consistent pattern until around 4 months or so. Sometimes they sleep for 45 minutes, other times they sleep for 3 hours. It is really hard to know when to go in and get them. I'd love a great answer for that myself! I usually get Dean up if he really starts crying hard. Sometimes he is still tired, so when he shows me one of his sleepy signs, I just soothe him and put him down again.

We are trying to do method A as well. You have to tailor it a little, both to the level of crying/fussing that you are comfortable with, and to the age of your baby. I will usually nurse Dean and then soothe him for a specified amount of time (5 to 10 minutes). I'll put him down in his crib after that. He will usually start to fuss or cry, and I'll just put my hand on his chest and shush him, or sing him a song. Often he will settle down after that. You can try and see if your son has the skills to soothe himself. He may not have developed them yet. Weisbluth says that you should just try it out, and if it doesn't work yet, come back to it in a few weeks.

I hope I was at least a little helpful! Good luck!

Cosmogirl

09-12-2005, 09:11 AM

Thanks Megan , looks like we are using similar methods! When you started trying W's method about a month ago, did it work right away?? Or did you had to wait and start again later??

William is not able yet to soothe himself to sleep, he starts fussing, and then instead of falling asleep, he gets cranked up. But I thought this was something that he was going to learn rather that something that he'll be able to do evenutally? He is going to wake up once morning, with the ability to soothe himslef?(like he did with nursing? He started nursing well at 6 weeks!)
In the meanwhile, what I do is I feed him, and then soothe him for 5 mintues, and then put him to bed. WHen he is drowsy enough, he falls into agitated sleep, and then deep sleep. But sometimes like this morning, for a reason I don't understand, it doesn't work. I try to go back and just shhh him, and put my hand on him, but it just doesn't work. So what should I do form there? Pick him up and retry later on, or just wait another week and try then??

I was not really expecting to have him on a nap schedule yet, but I just wanted to get him used to sleep in his bed for nap, and have a better rest instead of him sleeping anywhere, like in his bouncy in a motion sleep....like right now :(

Cosmogirl

09-12-2005, 02:46 PM

BUMP because I'd really aprreciate your input, and need your help
HE.DOES.NOT.WANT. to nap in his crib.

maren

09-12-2005, 03:18 PM

Hey Val - I have Reilly in her bouncy seat in her crib right now - trying to get her used to it.

I'm no expert (our baby just in the last few nights started sleeping better and more reliably) so take what I say with a grain of salt... I'm doing the same things as you. When the shhsing and my hand on her doesn't work, I pick her up and settle her down a bit and then try to put her down w/o being totally asleep once more. If she still doesn't go to sleep, I give up and try again the next time she goes down. We usually try to get her to fall asleep on her own at least once every time she goes down to sleep. Exceptions are the middle of the night when she's wide awake and my husband has to work in the morning. Those times I usually let her just sleep on me so we can all get some sleep, but that's also after she's already gone to sleep by herself earlier in the night. Hopefully. :)

I'm in the middle of W.'s book right now so I don't know if the above jives with what he says to do exactly but it's really been working for us this last week. That and doing my best to make sure she gets enough sleep during the day. I hope the sleep issues get a lot better for you quickly! And I love your location btw - My baby's the exact same way... :rolleyes:

twinnyme

09-12-2005, 03:31 PM

Cosmogirl - if it makes you feel any better, DD NEVER napped in her crib for the first three months of her life - not until she started daycare, and then they were able to get her to nap in her crib, no problem whatsoever. They say she never cries going into her crib at daycare.... Even after that, she still barely napped in her crib on the weekends. She's now almost 8 months, and probably only for the last month or two has she napped in her crib. Before that, it was the bouncy seat, the carseat, the stroller, everything BUT the crib. I don't know if that makes you feel better, but at least William's not the only one to not nap in his crib!

ETA: DD STTN last night spontaneously after a week of waking for one feeding per night. She slept 8 p.m. to 6 a.m. which we now think is her new schedule (time to get enough formula/solids in her). Before, it was 6/7 to 5/6. This new schedule will take some getting used to (I try to work at home some in the evenings....)

Cosmogirl

09-12-2005, 03:33 PM

I have Reilly in her bouncy seat in her crib right now - trying to get her used to it.
What a neat idea!
I just decided that I would at least put the bouncey seat in his room. He will at least learn to be in the room...next we'll maybe be able to upgrade to the crib :rolleyes: But I love your idea!

If she still doesn't go to sleep, I give up and try again the next time she goes down.
So you basically try twice, and oterwise, you put her to sleep somewhere else that she will sleep??? Maybe it would be a better idea then trying too hard and getting them overtired!

Cosmogirl

09-12-2005, 03:34 PM

Thanks twinnyme it does make me feel a little better. But what I'm scared about is that the motionless sleep is better...whereas in his bouncy, he likes it when it vibrates! :rolleyes:

maren

09-12-2005, 06:02 PM

Yep, I usually give it a couple tries and if it doesn't work I let her sleep on me - her current spot of choice :rolleyes:. My husband tried over and over one night and let's just say that didn't go so well. ;)

Megande

09-12-2005, 07:19 PM

When we started doing W's method for night sleep, it worked well within a week or so. Dean started sleeping for 12 hours at night and waking only once to eat. It probably took 2 weeks of putting him down in his crib awake before he would settle down fairly quickly. Now when I put him down, he cries for about 20 seconds and then settles down. Even if he is fussy now, he will lay by himself quietly until he puts himself to sleep (well, most times). If it seems like it isn't going to work for that particular nap, I don't push it.

If your DS likes to go to sleep in motion, W. says that it is no big deal, just turn off the motion after they go to sleep. You don't even have to move them. If your son likes to sleep in his swing, for example, that is fine, just let the swing stop after he goes to sleep.

Do you swaddle your DS? I couldn't get Dean to sleep alone for more than a few minutes without being swaddled. I highly recommend the amazing miracle blanket.

twinnyme

09-13-2005, 06:37 AM

Thanks twinnyme it does make me feel a little better. But what I'm scared about is that the motionless sleep is better...whereas in his bouncy, he likes it when it vibrates! :rolleyes:

Good point, Cosmogirl - but your son is still pretty young yet, right? Like megande, I also stopped motion sleep after a while - after reading Weissbluth. If she fell asleep in the swing or bouncy seat, I'd turn it off and (luckily) she usually still stayed asleep. Of course, yesterday, she fell asleep in the car! Oh, well, I can't always have her do motionless sleep!

DD has stopped waking at night, spontaneously. After waking once a night to eat for a week (from last Sunday through this Saturday night) she has now slept two nights through again, thank god. Sunday she slept 8 p.m. to 6 a.m. and last night she slept 8 p.m. to 5 a.m. We are SOOO glad. Maybe it WAS just a growth spurt as DH thought.... In any case, we're thanking our lucky stars again and hoping it lasts. It does seem as though she has shifted from her 6/7 p.m. to 5/6 a.m. routine to this one. But then she also seems to regularly sleep naps from 7:45/8 a.m. to 9:30/10 a.m. and 12-2 p.m. plus usually a 1/2 hour or hour nap around 4 p.m. So she's still getting plenty of sleep; I just have to adjust my routines to her now. And the timing couldn't be better; we're heading to NYC again this weekend for our nephew's 2nd birthday and DD hasn't seen that side of the family (my side) since the 4th of July so her going to bed at 8 p.m. is perfect for our visit. On our last trip, we rushed her to bed at 6 p.m. and everyone seemed upset by that (but we stuck to our guns).

Did anyone's DC shift their sleep schedule like DD's after a while? I'm vaguely worried that going to bed later will start her becoming sleep deprived over the long term but maybe it's just a normal shift. (I looked in Weissbluth but couldn't find much about this - he recommends a bedtime of 6-8 p.m. and says not to go to your child before 6 a.m. even if they cry because they'll learn to get up earlier and earlier... but I've never been able to do that part.)

Cosmogirl

09-13-2005, 09:54 AM

Good morning ladies! Thanks for your replies!

I don't know wheter to be happy this morning, or frustrated! After a day of not wanting to nap, he fell asleep last night after his 6 o'clock feeding, and slept until 9. Then the feeding took 1/2 hour, and at 9:30 he was sleeping again. Slept though until 2 where he ate again. Usually, the night feeding is really short, but I guess he had slept so much, he fussed for 1 hour after I was done. I finally came to pick him up again, and as soon as he got in my arms, his body relaxed, and he fell asleep. I think I might have gone maybe a second too early, maybe he would have fallen alssep on his own. :( He slept again until 6:30, then ate again, and went to bed again until 9:30. After that I don,t think he was ready to go to bad, although, he looked a bit tired still. I putted him in his bouncey, and he fell asleep. I tried to put him in his bed, but just after he hit the bed, he woke up. I tried another time, but we were close to 2 hours of wakefulness, so I brought him back to his bouncy, fell immedialty asleep :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The thing though is last night at the 9:30 sleep time, he fell asleep on HIS OWN! So he IS able to. But during the day NOPE! :rolleyes:

Megan Looks like you did the exact same thing I'm trying to do. Will sleeps in his room, and we do swaddle him. But since he moves so much priore to falling asleep, the swadeling don't work for long...
As I said, he did fall asleep on his own once last night, and maybe it would have worked during the night too, but I blew it. :( But during the day, even when he is sleeping, as soon as he hits the crib, nope!
When we started doing W's method for night sleep, it worked well within a week or so. I would lay in bed and listen to him for a few minutes to see if he was going to settle himself back to sleep. If he just kept fussing, I'd leave him and he would usually go back to sleep. If he progressed to full on crying, I'd go in and feed him.
Is that what you started with? Did you feed him because it was time, or just because it is part of your soothing process?? I'm always puzzled with the feeding shedule, because he eats evry 3 hours, but has got to go down every at least 2 hours...He falls asleep well when both arrives at the same time!!!
Dean started sleeping for 12 hours at night and waking only once to eat.
Will only wakes up once usually around 2. The he wakes up at 6-7. Whenyou say he slept 12 hours, you mean, form let's say 10pm -10am with waking up only once??
Thanks for you hep, I really feel we are using the same methods, and you are one step further away from me

twinnyme I'd turn it off and (luckily) she usually still stayed asleep
Not always his case...But I guess he'd better sleep in motion then not at all... :(

maren

09-13-2005, 10:55 AM

Megan - How old was Dean the week you started using Weisbluth's method?

Val - Last night actually sounds like it wasn't to awful for you. The fact that he fell asleep on his own once is huge.

Reilly did not have a good night at all. She had been fussy pretty much all day. Adam gave her her bottle at 10pm and she was up at 12:30. Ugh. Usually we get at least 4 hours b/c of the bottle. After that she was up at 2, 3:30 and 4:30 and never had a deep sleep at all after that. Did I mention that she spent the entire night on my chest on the couch? Sometimes she just refuses to fall asleep anywhere else. She's still so little (5 weeks) I don't *think* I'm causing any unbreakable habits by letting her do that. In the middle of the night, w/ my husband having to get up for work at 6, I just don't have the energy to sit alone and try to get her to sleep by herself multiple times during the night. Since she wakes up to eat twice, and takes at least a 1/2 hour each time, I won't get any sleep.

What do you ladies think? Is letting her sleep on me ok for a while, or should I stop letting her do that and really try to get her down in her boucy seat every time she wakes up during the night?

jki

09-14-2005, 05:40 PM

What do you ladies think? Is letting her sleep on me ok for a while, or should I stop letting her do that and really try to get her down in her boucy seat every time she wakes up during the night?

I think it's fine. DS was slept in his Bjorn for literally almost EVERY nap until he was 4 months old. By 6 months, I could toss him into his crib awake and he would go to sleep on his own.

Maren, your DD is still sooo young. My DD is 9 weeks old and sometimes she sleeps in her pack n play, sometimes she sleeps on me and sometimes she sleeps in her crib. "They" say you can't develop bad habits until the baby is 3 months old. I think the most important thing at her age is to sleep as much as possible so that she develops melatonin.

Megande

09-14-2005, 08:40 PM

Did you feed him because it was time, or just because it is part of your soothing process??

I don't have a feeding schedule with Dean at all. The great thing about BFing is that you can't overfeed a BF baby. I feed him when he wakes up from a nap and often before he goes down for a nap just to soothe him. I always feed him before putting him down for the night.

When you say he slept 12 hours, you mean, form let's say 10pm -10am with waking up only once??
Yes. He usually goes to bed between 7:30 and 8:30 pm and wakes up between 7:30 and 9 am. He usually wakes up at around 4, eats and goes back to sleep.

Have you tried the amazing miracle blanket? That worked for us when no other swaddle would. It is the best $30 I have ever spent. We also invested in a white noise machine. He sleeps *so* much better with it on.

Maren - Dean has been sleeping in his crib for naps and nighttime since he was a month old. We started being a little stricter with sleeping at around 7 or 8 weeks, but mostly because it worked for us. Dean seemed to take to sleeping alone. But I really don't think you should worry about letting your DD sleep on you from time to time. A well rested family is really the main goal. I think that you just need to do whatever gets you and your family the most sleep. There is plenty of time to worry about sleep habits later. The only reason that we started so early is because Dean seemed to sleep better in his crib and showed signs of willingness to fall asleep on his own.

Candy

09-15-2005, 10:42 AM

HELP, I'm exhausted!

DD is 7 months old. We've been following Weissbluth since she was 5 months old. Since she is a post colic baby, it took a LONG time, but she WAS sleeping great. She was only waking one time between 1-4AM, but would go back to sleep until anywhere between 6-7:30AM. :)

She was going down any where between 6-7:30PM depending on her nap schedule. She was taking 3 naps per day, but a few weeks ago dropped a nap and is usually taking 2 naps now. I went back to read the section on night waking, and Dr. W says it's normally due to either being over tired or over stimulated.

The past 2 night she's been waking every 1-3 hours. Being the wuss that I am, I broke down 2 night ago and got her after just 3 hours to give her teethng tablets and nursed her down again. Big mistake! She continued to wake up all night. I know Dr. W says teething won't cause night waking. That's when I re-read the section on night wakings, 1am when she woke up. I needed reassurance.

Last night I was much stronger, but not strong enough. She went down at 7:30PM, and woke up at 1:15AM for a feeding. She went right back down, than woke up again around 3:45AM. I "accidently" went to her. I was so tired and didn't realize it had only been 2.5 hours. I nursed her, than put her back in the crib, but this time she was still awake. I let her cry for 2 hours! The first hour was more whining & wimpering, but the second hour she was hysterical. I ended up getting her out of the crib and laid down on the couch to nurse her. I had fallen asleep and woke up to DH watching us sleep at 8AM.

Do I just need to let her cry indefinitely no matter what? I'm really doubting myself and I'm exhausted! When she's crying in the crib, I'm lying in my bed awake. DH is sound asleep though. :rolleyes:

Any advise? TIA!

Candy

Franni

09-15-2005, 12:58 PM

Help I am in almost the same situation as Candy. DD was ST when she was 5 months and everything was going superbly until she went to daycare. In daycare she got a whole slew of illnesses. She has been so sick and have been on all kinds of meds that all the training went out the window.

Now that she is finally well, we really need to do something. She has been waking up every 2 hours and she is almost 1 year old already.

curlywig

09-23-2005, 07:42 AM

Wondering if anyone can give me some advice....DS is 5+ mos old (FF FWIW). He's a big guy at about 18 lbs. He takes 2-3 good naps during the day and about 10 at night. We have a whole bedtime routine, and he falls asleep right away starting at about 6-6:30pm. He no longer eats during the night. The problem is that he wakes sometime between 3-4am "crying." I say "crying" because he'll squawk and jabber, then he does this kinda fake crying. We'll go check on him, and the second he sees us he'll start laughing and want to play. BTW, we don't make eye contact or turn on lights.

If we just leave him alone, he'll accelerate the "crying" for quite a while. I have no problem getting up as early as 5am with him, or earlier if I really think he's hungry. But, his behavior is leading me to believe he's not hungry, he's bored.

Any advice?

cc8

09-23-2005, 06:45 PM

subscribing

karilynne_97

09-26-2005, 10:54 AM

Gosh ladies, I wish I could help, but I'm still new at this CIO thing.

curlywig-
According to the book, you're not supposed to go to them before 6am (mommies, pls correct me if I'm wrong), so I would suggest just letting DS fuss/cry till he falls back to sleep, unless the crying becomes hysterical (you know your baby's cries better than anyone else). We've done this a few times; we were sure DD wasn't hungry (had already had her nighttime feeding) and was dry, so we let her cry. She eventually fell back to sleep.

My question:
Normally DD falls asleep for the night with her last bottle @ 6:30pm, and will awake anywhere from 12-2am for another feeding, no problem because she's still in that age frame where she'll have 1-2 night feedings (per the book). On the nights where she doesn't fall asleep eating, we give her kisses and hugs and put her to bed to CIO. Never fails: the nights where she CIO, she sleeps THE WHOLE NIGHT without waking once. Anyone else's child do this? Should I just let her CIO every night?

Mrs.Chappy

09-26-2005, 12:58 PM

hi
i have a 3 1/2 month boy. He seems to enjoy being swaddled lately (he falls asleep real fast). we were using the swaddle me by kiddopotamus but i think its too small. do you think its worth it for me to invest in the miracle blanet? he is already 13 pounds and probably 23 inches by now..is their a size limit? i know the manufacturer recommends it for children up to 6 months.

mommycal

09-28-2005, 11:46 AM

Trying to find this for a friend. Isn't there a site for Healthy sleep habits, happy baby? TIA for your help

cynder

09-28-2005, 12:13 PM

Mrs Chappy We have the Miracle Blanket and DS is over 13 lbs and it was starting to be too small for him. I don't think there is a size limit per se but DS was definitely starting to bust out of it. We started weaning him from it this week with CIO and so far it hasn't been too bad.

I loved the Miracle Blanket and DH could get DS to sleep in under 10 secs. but we decided it was time for him to learn to sleep on his own.

karilynne_97 I am so new to this whole thing but we let him CIO it out. DS is 4 months and our ped confirmed that he can sleep for 6-8 hours with out feeding. Right now DS sleeps from 8-5:30 with no feeds.

Candy

09-28-2005, 05:00 PM

According to the book, you're not supposed to go to them before 6am

My understanding is that until 9 months of age, some babies still receive night time feedings. I re-read the section about 5 times to make sure.

DD is waking up 2 x's per night and she's 7 months. I'm starting to think it's out of habit though. I think starting tonight I will eliminate 1 of the feedings and only go to her once.

celina

10-02-2005, 12:05 PM

At what age do you start sleep training?

maggieb

10-02-2005, 01:11 PM

Most peds and sleep area experts don't reccomend it until 4-6 months. However, Weissbluth does have some tips on reading your baby's cues to be able to put them down before they get overtired. Marisa is just now 12 weeks old and I am still swaddling, rocking, nursing to get her to sleep and that's OK.

I don't know how old your baby is, but at about 6 weeks is when babies typically begin to organize night sleep and at about 4 months begin to organize day sleep.

I know Marisa has been pretty textbook so far with sleep and at 6 weeks she was getting up 2-3 times to nurse at night. Now at 12 weeks, she's up 1-2 times.

cc8

10-24-2005, 01:10 PM

Bump!

LeslieR

11-08-2005, 09:20 AM

I still haven't gotten a chance to read through HSHHC:rolleyes:, but I have a question I hope someone who has can help me with! The past two nights Luke has gone to sleep at around 7:45 and slept until 3am, back to sleep and up again at around 5:30am. Both days I have gotten him back to sleep after nursing him at 5:30, but once I put him in the crib he woke up. 5:30 is waaaay too early for me to be up for the day. What can I do to get him to sleep later? I know Weissbluth recommends the earlier bedtime for kids his age, but does that equal an early waking time like this? If I keep him up later at night, will he sleep later or will it backfire in my face? I've been going to bed earlier myself to combat the early waking (and mostly in case he doesn't sleep well because we have had some doozy nights where he has been up 4+ times a night:rolleyes: ), but no matter how early I go to bed, I am still not ready to face the day at 5:30am!!! Help!

Cosmogirl

11-08-2005, 09:26 AM

Leslie
It is going to backfire in your face. That is W. first principle. You have to have an earlier bedtime, sleeps beget sleeps. No, it isn,t because you put him to bed later that he'll sleep later, he'll be overtired, and not sleep as much. Time to bring bedtime earlier sweety!
William decided for the last 3 days to push his bedtime earlier. Now it is 18:30, and this morning, he slept until 7:30.
He usually wake up ealier in the morning the night where we had a hard time putting him to bed...

LeslieR

11-08-2005, 09:27 AM

Thanks Val! Sooooo, if I put him to bed even earlier, will he then sleep later?

jki

11-08-2005, 09:28 AM

What can I do to get him to sleep later? I know Weissbluth recommends the earlier bedtime for kids his age, but does that equal an early waking time like this?
I think a 5:30am wakeup time is common - but Weissbluth says that if you can get them back down, it is a continuation of nighttime sleep. IIRC, there's not much you can do to get him to sleep later - their biological clocks tells them to when to wake up.

If I keep him up later at night, will he sleep later or will it backfire in my face?
It will absolutely backfire. For example, on Sunday night, DD (she is almost 4 mos) went to bed at 9pm - was up at 5am. Last night, DD went to bed at 7pm - she was up at 6am this morning. Remember, sleep begets sleep and you should never allow your child to become overtired. By keeping him up later, you potentially make him overtired.

Until DS can start sleeping later, your best bet is to try to nap. Or maybe your husband can get up with him in the morning?
HTH!

jki

11-08-2005, 09:29 AM

I totally cross posted with Cosmogirl!

LeslieR

11-08-2005, 09:34 AM

Thanks jki! Maybe I'll aim for a 7pm bedtime tonight and hope for him to sleep later. Ironically he has been pretty much napping all morning today. (I'm too thickheaded to realize that I should take a nap, too.:rolleyes: )

Cosmogirl

11-08-2005, 09:39 AM

Yeap Leslie, the ealier you put him to bed, the "later" he'll wake up. But like JKI said, for a while, 5:30 might be his wake up hour...for a little while. When he'll be older, you won't go before 6, but for now, you need to go when he asks.
But I would DEF try to go earlier tonight. It might not work the first time, depends on how well rested Luke is...

jki

11-08-2005, 09:41 AM

William decided for the last 3 days to push his bedtime earlier. Now it is 18:30, and this morning, he slept until 7:30.

WOW! :eek: That is 13 hours! I am so jealous!!

LeslieR

11-08-2005, 10:10 AM

I feel like such a zombie today and I am kicking myself that I have not been on the couch napping right along with him. If I could just get him to sleep until 8, that would be so much better. There have been days where I have gone to get him and brought him into bed with me and we will nurse and nap and nurse and nap until 10 or so, but he won't always do this (tried it this morning-no dice).

CBMarie

11-08-2005, 10:22 AM

Don't expect the earlier bedtime to work immediately - it might take a few weeks for his system to get used to the new bedtime. Also, keep in mind that some babies do wake up early until their sleep is completely organized - for us "organized" meant that Declan consolidated all his naps in to one longer nap in the afternoon. It didn't happen until he was about 18 months old. Before that he was waking up at 5 or 5:30, napping at 9, and then again at 12 or 1. When we eliminated the morning nap he started to nap longer in the afternoon and longer in the morning. It was a long road.

Jenyfer9

11-08-2005, 10:23 AM

Oh, I'm sooooo glad that this thread has resurfaced.

Here's my story (in brief): ds#1 was a GREAT sleeper from the getgo. So I never really had to deal these issues, even though I'm a repeat mom. DS#2: turned 6 months old last week, and has sttn MAYBE 3 times in the past 4 months or so. He's a big kid, so I'm not against not feeding him in the middle of the night, BUT if he wakes up in the middle of the night, nothing can soothe him. He won't take a paci, we have a "womb sounds bear" that we use daily. I'm not particularly fond of CIO, but I'm not sure what else to do. The biggest problem with all of this is that I feel like I've tried all the textbook cures, and nothing is working.

I'm probably leaving important info out, but I've been up no later than 4:30 am for the past week and a half, and I'm about ready to pull my hair out.

Here's our routine: about 6:30-7:00pm ds#2 falls asleep (not on his own, I may add). I tried going in and changing him and feeding him before I went to bed (anytime from 9:45-10:30pm depending), and he'd go right back to sleep. But then he'd wake up at about 4:30am not hungry, just babbling away AND WIDE AWAKE. But this is BAD at our house because he's making so much noise that he's waking up ds#1, who is then UP FOR THE DAY by 5:20ish, and this is NOT ACCEPTABLE. So then I thought, maybe I'll just get him to wake up once in the middle of the night and eat, because that is certainly better than being up for the day at 4:30. So last night was a prime example of this: he woke up at 12:30 (I did not do the before my bed feed), I fed him and he went back to sleep. But then, this morning he's up at 4:45 despite the fact that he ate at 12:30. He did eat a little (maybe 4 oz or so). He woke up ds#1, so now he's been up since 5:20. Then, at 6:15, ds#2 decides to go back to sleep until 8:30, so I knew he was tired. He's now taking his morning nap, which really sucks because then we won't have any chance of having the 2 kids naps line up at all (ie, there's no way I could THINK about catching up on any sleep).

Please someone tell me that they've dealt with something similar and has suggestions for me.

Cosmogirl

11-08-2005, 10:30 AM

Leslie 8 is a little late. I'm not sure you'll be able to have that. William never slept until 8.(in one straight shot...) 7:30 is like the TOP (read miracle!). Kids do wake up early. Most of the time he wakes for the day at 6:30. I think you need to be realistic, no more lazy morning anymore sweety:p :p :p The time where he would wake around 8-9 he had woken up ealier on to feed. But now that he does one long stretch through the night, this time is over. Now my day starts at the latest 7:30.

jki Yeah! I got a good sleeper on my hand!:p

cc8

11-08-2005, 10:46 AM

DD is 10 weeks old and will usually go to bed around 9 or 10pm. How can I help her go to bed at an earlier hour? I watch for sleepy cues and swaddle and rock her until she falls asleep.

LeslieR

11-08-2005, 10:51 AM

hehe Val! You mean I don't get to sleep until 10 anymore like I did when I was pregnant? Dammit. lol

What really sucks about this is DH has a schedule where he either works until 6, 7, or 9. He is so bummed out that when he comes home Luke is either asleep or getting ready to go to sleep. I feel bad for him that he missed out on spending time with him, but I'm the one that has to deal with a cranky baby and I'm the one that has to get up in the middle of the night! You'd think his lack of time with him would motivate him to get up earlier in the morning and take him off my hands, but no dice! Although, to be fair, he did get up at 6:30 with him this morning, so I did get a little extra sleep.

twinnyme

11-08-2005, 12:06 PM

DH has a schedule where he either works until 6, 7, or 9. He is so bummed out that when he comes home Luke is either asleep or getting ready to go to sleep. I feel bad for him that he missed out on spending time with him, but I'm the one that has to deal with a cranky baby

Amen! Me, too - DH often doesn't get home until 7 or 8 and sometimes even later - and DD's usual bedtime has varied but has always been between 6 and 8. One of Weissbluth's tenets is also that you should not keep a baby up later than necessary because of someone's working hours. (And this was very hard for me at the beginning because I was working full-time then. I work part-time now. But I was barely seeing her, either.) Plus, now that I work part-time I also freelance part-time from home, so I am particularly motivated to get her to sleep at a decent time, so that I'm not too exhausted to maybe get in an hour's work at night (I still go absolutely by her signals, but I must say I'm happy that her most usual bedtime is 6:45 p.m.).

To help you feel a little better about the earlier wake-up time, DD also woke up at 5:30 all the time!!! This was okay because again I was working full-time and commuting, but now my part-time job is closer and I commute less (therefore, get up later) so I'm hoping she'll sleep later. Slowly but surely she has begun to sleep lately. She is also pushing her own bedtime a little later. For example, last night it was 7, the night before 7:30 - it also depends on her naps during the day. So there is hope that your DC may sleep later eventually (OTOH, one of my nephews, who is now 2, still wakes up early on a regular basis). But I wouldn't put him to sleep later and expect a later wake-up time; as people have said, that's likely to backfire. (In fact, if you go back a few pages you may come across a post by me bowing down to the ladies - gods? - on this thread who told me no matter what put DD down earlier, and she'd sleep better. ITA that sleep begets sleep.)

DD typically sleeps 6:45 pm to 6:00 am-ish now. And sometimes she'll wake at 5:30, eat, and go back to sleep until 7:00-8:00 (we're very happy when it's 8 on a weekend!), and sometimes once she eats at 5:30 she's up for the day but then will nap at 9 or so. Most often, she's up at 6.

I have followed Weissbluth (and this thread!) from the beginning, and it has all been very helpful. Good luck!

Cosmogirl

11-08-2005, 12:10 PM

Leslie I know what you mean Last week Dh arrived at home at 11pm everynight, and went to work at 5 am. So he didn,t see William for the whole week. He missed him so much. But at the same time, he knows that it is in William's best interest to sleep well, it is important so that he ain't cranky, and for his developpement as well. So he tryied to enjoy him more this weekend instead. But I agree that it is hard.

BTW waking at 10 LOL wasthat???:p

jki

11-08-2005, 12:54 PM

Jenyfer9:
I don't know if I can help but having followed Weissbluth for two kids, here's what I'd say:

He's a big kid, so I'm not against not feeding him in the middle of the night
If he's a big kid, I think he doesn't NEED to eat at night. IMO, it's the skinny ones who get hungry faster and who need the calories to grow. My DS was 21 lbs. at 6 months (so a pretty big baby) and slept 12 hours straight since he was 12 weeks old. Is your DS getting enough to eat during the day? DS ate 8-9 oz. every THREE hours during the day and slept 12-13 hours at night. Maybe you could have someone else feed him (if you BF) and gradually add water to the bottle until the bottle is 100% water?

My friend's baby (who was the second child) was born the same time my DS was but he ate SO MUCH LESS during the day because he was at the mercy of his brother's schedule - my friend fed him at night until he was 8 months old and couldn't do it anymore. They ended up CIO.

BUT if he wakes up in the middle of the night, nothing can soothe him. He won't take a paci, we have a "womb sounds bear" that we use daily. I'm not particularly fond of CIO, but I'm not sure what else to do.
Are you totally against CIO? We did CIO with DD and so far, so good. If she wakes up anytime before 6am, she cries until she falls back asleep. She cried one night for about an hour, but ever since then, she sleeps at least 9-10 hours straight. I was against CIO, but 3 other people in our family were not getting any decent sleep. It was horrible.

Do you use music? When DD woke up in the middle of the night, we would play her special music and she would stop crying to listen to it and she would know it was time to go to sleep.

Have you tried different pacis? I tried about 5 different ones with DS until I found one that was acceptable to him.

Anyhow, I know how hard it is with 2. The business of one kid waking the other one up gets SO OLD so fast. I'm just throwing a bunch of things out there - you've probably already tried most of them.

LeslieR

11-09-2005, 07:19 AM

Okay girls-I got Luke fully asleep by 7 last night. Stupidly I woke him up around 8 by going in his room for something. I was able to get him back to sleep pretty quickly, though. He woke up at 2:30 to eat and then was up again at 4:30.:rolleyes: I got him back to sleep two different times in which he woke up as soon as I put him back in the crib. The third time I got him back to sleep, I just put him in the crib and didn't stick around to see if he woke back up or not. lol This was around 5:30. I heard him making noises on the monitor, but no crying so I let him be and fell asleep. He woke me up around 6:30 or so and DH took him downstairs before he went to work so I could get some extra sleep. He's asleep again now. Not too bad. He never wakes up when I put him back in his crib in the middle of the night-only in the morning. I'm assuming this is because he's ready to be up for the day? I went to bed at 9 myself and I feel so much better today than I did yesterday! I was even pretty awake at 4:30. lol And I have to say that he was in a great mood earlier when DH brought him into the bedroom to me. All smiley and happy-definitely well rested!:D

jki

11-09-2005, 09:09 AM

I put Cassidy down at 6pm yesterday and she slept until 6:20am this morning BUT she woke up at 9pm and screamed for an hour. Did I put her down too early? Did she think that she was going down for a nap vs. bed?

She usually goes to bed around 7:30pm and can sleep until at least 5am without waking or eating but I'm trying to get her to sleep later!!

Weissbluth followers - any ideas?

cc8

11-09-2005, 09:23 AM

What is everyone doing when they put their DS to bed - rocking, swaddling, special music? What?

Last night, I tried an earlier bedtime with DD. I started rocking her at 7:00pm-ish. She fed and fell asleep by 8:00-ish. But then she got up after 40 minutes to feed again, fell back asleep. I'm trying to figure out WHAT to do in order to get DD to go down initially in the evenings.

Also, what TIME are you initially putting DC down?

twinnyme

11-09-2005, 11:42 AM

What is everyone doing when they put their DS to bed - rocking, swaddling, special music? What?

Well, when I first started instituting a bedtime routine, I had everything but the kitchen sink in it. Now are evenings are somewhat like this:

4:45 - come home, play or take bath, put on PJ's
5:15 - eat - either solids or bottle, depending, maybe watch Sesame Street/play if have taken a bath already
5:45 - if I'm not washing her hair that night, sometimes a bath now (and PJ's). Then playtime, quiet, sometimes downstairs, sometimes up in her room (depending on how tired she seems, and if we're starting to wind down)
6:30 - bottle in her room in the glider with the lights off (this can vary from 6:15 to 7:00)

ETA: So essentially our bedtime routine is now bottle and lovey and lasts 15 minutes. I read her books at other times of the day because although that was in my original routine, I quickly realized it was too much for her. Ditto on the bath, which rather than relaxes her seems to stimulate her. She loves splashing in the water!

Also, what TIME are you initially putting DC down?

See above - but usually between 6:15 and 7:30 sometime. I watch for signs of tiredness, and calculate based on her naps that day and how tired she seems when might be a good bedtime. Most often I put her in her crib at 6:45.

Oh, one other part of the routine: When I put her in her crib, I hand her her lovey (blanket with doll head). She takes it, usually puts it over her eyes, rolls over onto her tummy, makes some settling noises, and goes to "sleep" (still making some noises sometimes for 15-20 minutes; sometimes immediately quiet). But I leave the room then. I used to tuck the lovey under her hands when I fed her her last bottle, but now she mostly holds the bottle herself so I just give it to her in her crib.

LeslieR - sounds like you had a pretty good night! I'm glad. Yes, isn't it nice to feel well-rested? I meant to say in my earlier post that although it's tough, going to bed early is sometimes the best bet. I went to bed at 9 for months!! (and was usually falling asleep on the couch the minute I put her to bed at night) Now that she more consistently STTN I tend to go to bed later again. And unfortunately I have often woken her up by going into her room for something (usually the last bottle to wash that I forgot in there!). Now I usually wait for a solid 1.5 hours to go in there for anything, to make sure she's in a deep sleep.

jki - not sure what's going on with Cassidy, but although DD pretty much STTN on a regular basis, she sometimes has gas pains and cries a bit. Last night, she woke at around 9:30, cried for about 10 minutes, then went back to sleep - thank goodness we didn't go in to check on her, it probably would have been much tougher to get her back to sleep! She also woke up at about midnight doing the same thing - though she only cried 1-2 minutes. If she cries longer than 30 minutes, we usually feed her now (based on calculating how much she ate that day). The waking up twice last night was VERY unusual for her. Could Cassidy be teething maybe?

ETA: Remember my DD is 10 months old, much older than either of your children. Maybe a longer routine might be useful now...

Cosmogirl

11-09-2005, 04:51 PM

jkithe ealier bedtime thing: You can't force an earlier bedtime. It ain't going to work. You have to follow your kid's lead. I tried to pu DS earlier to bed once, and it wasn't a good idea. HJe was not ready. So I continued to put him to bed around 7-7:30. But since a couple of days, he has moved his bed time ealier. He wakes up ealier form his last nap, and won't go back to bed until we have gone through the routine.

cc8
Our routine:
Wakes up from last nap...variable. Usually around 5.
5: eats
5:30 play
6:00 Bath
6:15-20 Nurse with light music
6:30 fall asleep.

*******************************************
Now I do have a quesiton of my own. Nap time is becoming harder here. I'm not sure I understand why. He typically take DS at least 30 minutes before he falls asleep. He stays in his bed and whine and whimpers for nearly 30 mintues each time. I am careful to put him to bed once he has started to yarn. But he never gets really drowsy.
Is my nap routine not good? Am I doing something wrong? I feel like he always wants to nurse beofre going for a nap, and sometimes even after nursing, I out him down, and he cries. Any thoughts???

curlywig

11-24-2005, 04:44 PM

Looking for a bit of advice here....

By way of background, DS is 7+ months old, and is generally a VERY happy, VERY easy baby who naps and sleeps extremely well. He puts himself to sleep really easily after a minute of chatting. He goes to sleep at night between 6 and 6:30 pm and wakes between 6-7 am. Naps generally 3x a day still.

My question is that he still seems to only be able to stay awake for about 2 hours or so. I have read that by this age, he should be able to stay awake for at least 3 hours. But, with DS, when we approach the 2 hour mark, he starts getting fussy and rubbing his eyes.

The other thing is that the length of his naps has diminished. It's not uncommon for him to take a 40-45 min. nap, whereas he used to nap for 1.5 hours at least.

Any advice?

nybride2003

11-25-2005, 01:34 PM

Curlywig:
My DS is 9 mos now but at that age he did the same thing. He has always been a 2hr guy. He generally had a 40 min nap or two and one 1.5...maybe 2 hrs if I was lucky. With mine the 40 min nap was normal. This is one sleep cycle and some babies just can't put themselves back to sleep. At around 8.5 mos he did start to drop his last nap and I noticed he took 1.5 hrs nap with 2hrs of wake time in between and then awake the rest of the time until bed time. Just now I'm noticing that he does want to stay awake closer to 3 hrs with two 1.5 hr naps. Maybe your DS is like my son and it may take them some time before they can stay awake longer.

I do have a question...just yesterday he started standing up in his crib when we put him down for naps. I keep going up there and laying him down and he gets up again. I let him play a little and them lay him down a few more times and he finally take a nap. I even got up last night at midnight and had to lay him back down. Someone please tell me this is a phase and he will not do this forever.

jki

11-27-2005, 10:25 AM

curlywig:
At 7 months, DS used to only be able to stay up for 2 hours after he woke up in the morning. He could stay up longer in the afternoon - but he only took 2 naps per day. I wouldn't worry about it and I would continue just following his sleepy cues. Perhaps your DS is ready to drop the 3rd nap?

DS used to also go through phases of "crap napping" - I don't know if it was teething or what. Have you tried physically tiring him out before naps? I always found that Jackson slept better/longer after some sort of activity that tired him out. Have you tried leaving him in his crib after 40 minutes to see if he will go back to sleep? If not, maybe you could try putting him to sleep earlier to ensure he makes up the sleep he's missing from his naps.

nybride2003:
With regard to standing, I think Weissbluth says you are just supposed to let them figure out how to get down on their own. We never went in to help DS down and it was an issue for a very short while.

LexyLou

11-27-2005, 03:57 PM

Hi ladies, I just started looking at this thread for some help and saw this:

I think it's fine. DS was slept in his Bjorn for literally almost EVERY nap until he was 4 months old. By 6 months, I could toss him into his crib awake and he would go to sleep on his own.

hehe, sounds like my DD. She's a great night sleeper but naps are impossible and the Bjorn is like a gift from God but I would say only about 20% of the time can we take her out of it and have her stay asleep in her crib at nap time. She's only 2 months old so it's good to see that eventually your DC was able to sleep on his own.

AndreaMMS

11-27-2005, 04:23 PM

My daughter is 9 weeks old, and I'm just starting to read Weissbluth and this thread. :) A few questions...

1) He says he's against CIO, but one of the patient's stories talk about letting the baby cry for 2 1/2 hours! What the heck- isn't that CIO????? If not, what is?

2)Naomi will sleep well

A.For naps- only if we're holding her. If we try to put her down during the day- no matter how long she's been in our arms, she'll wake right up.

B.At night- only if we hold her for at least 20-30 minutes after she falls asleep. Then she'll usually go 5 hours.

Are we messing her sleeping up by all the holding?
Or is she still too young for us to worry about it? Thanks!

celina

11-27-2005, 04:54 PM

I’m having a heck of a time with sleep training.

DD had colic, which seems to be slowly going away. We now only have colicky days. She slept in her Pack N Play her first two weeks of life but once the colic became full blown she came to our bed so that I could get some sleep.

Here’s our routine:

5:30 Bath and PJs
6:00ish We lie down in bed together. I nurse her (while lying down) then stick her pacifier in her mouth. For the next ½ hour to hour, I lie with my face really close to hers and stick her pacifier back in her mouth whenever she drops it and gets fussy for it. Eventually she gets content w/o her pacifier and drifts into sleep.

She’ll sleep anywhere from 2-4 hours. We then repeat the process. My concern is that she’s used to having me around. I didn’t like the idea of co-sleeping, but with the colic it was really the only way to get her to fall asleep. I don’t know how to get her back in her Pack N Play now. I’ve tried waiting till she’s dead asleep and then putting her in it, but if she awakes she won’t self soothe and fall back asleep – I’ll have to do our whole sleep routine all over again.

When she awakes in the middle of the night for a feeding, I’m generally too tired to do our sleep routine so instead of waiting until she falls asleep and trying to move her into her pack and play, she stays in bed with me.

I would love to get her in Pack and Play. Any tips would be greatly appreciated. Oh and I've never been successful at nursing her to sleep. She just doesn't fall asleep at the boob.

I know when I posted before, DD was too young to self soothe, when do they start self soothing? :confused:

ETA: DD is 9 weeks old.

cr8zyforaf

11-27-2005, 06:45 PM

I have the same question as AndreaMMS - DD will only nap when being held and at night, I have to spend over an hour holding/rocking/shhing/walking with her to get her down. She is an extremely high needs/gassy/colicy baby - am I ruining her? She goes to daycare next week and I am a mess - I fear she will scream all day.

She usually naps for 1-2 hours on a good day once and will sleep 5 hours at night on good nights (however, she won't go down until 10 or 11) - other nights, she is up every 2 hours crying with gas pain. I thought it was supposed to get better at 3 months, but the last week it has gotten 100 time worse.

jki

11-27-2005, 09:07 PM

LexyLou: After my DS was asleep in the Bjorn, I used to climb onto the middle of my bed, gently lower DS onto the bed while crouching on hands and knees and slip out of the Bjorn. He would stay asleep for quite a while longer. Maybe something like that would work for you vs. holding Ella for the entire nap? It's so hard to transfer them out of the Bjorn without waking them up! :( Is she taking all of her naps in the Bjorn? Have you given up on the drowsy but awake thing?

AndreaMMS: I've read the book about 50 times and I never took away that Weissbluth was "against" CIO. I think he supports whatever the parent feels comfortable with but insists on consistency. He discusses all the different methods you can try - gradual approaches, etc. But yes, most of the anecdotes from parents involve CIO.

I personally think it's fine to hold her all the time, but I would try putting her down so that she gets used to the idea of sleeping elsewhere. I used to do that with my DS. If he'd cry, I would pick him up and hold him, but eventually, he understood that crib = sleep. You can't hold her for every nap forever.

celina: Have you tried putting her into her Pack N Play and then giving her the paci? Will she go back to sleep if you give her the paci? I would try putting her in the Pack N Play, giving her the paci and standing over her until she falls asleep.

My DD starting self soothing at about 2.5 - 3 months - she uses a paci when she goes to sleep but we don't replace it in the middle of the night. Has your DD found her thumb/hand/fingers to suck on yet? Is she swaddled?

cr8zyforaf: If you are following Weissbluth, you HAVE to put her down for bed earlier. I would still rock/walk her to sleep, but the earlier bedtime helps them consolidate sleep. It sounds like she also needs to nap more - I would try to get her to take at least 3 naps per day so she can build up melatonin.

cc8

11-27-2005, 09:27 PM

We are trying to follow HSHHC as well. Here's a question or just food for thought.

In the beginning, DH and I picked up DD *everytime* she cried. Fast forward 3 months and we're finding that DD has a hard time being put down ANYWHERE - her papsan, swing, crib, etc, for more than say 5 minutes, before she starts crying. She is also waking up CONSTANTLY in the middle of the night.

Basically, I have a feeling that DH and I did ourselves in with the constant holding. We're now letting DD cry it out a bit more to help her get adjusted to NOT being held/picked up all the time.

Has this happened to anyone else?

AndreaMMS

11-28-2005, 06:24 AM

jki- I agree that I need to put her down for naps, but her eyes will pop right open and then she'll get cranky because she's overtired. Sigh. I guess I just have to tough it out until she learns crib=sleep?

Also, like crazyfrorAF's daughter, Naomi won't go down for her long stretch of night sleep until 10-11PM. She's instinctively on that 2 hour/nap schedule until then. SO...

If you are following Weissbluth, you HAVE to put her down for bed earlier.

How do you really do that? Make her bedtime HOURS earlier? Even if she does go down at say, 7PM if she only has one 5 hour stretch at this point won't she be wide awake at midnight thinking it's morning? I'd love some advice...:confused:

Thanks!

dbers

11-28-2005, 06:28 AM

Andrea - I found that I couldn't really follow ANY books until Alex got a little older!

cr8zyforaf

11-28-2005, 07:42 AM

I've tried putting her down earlier...then we just end up with me fighting with her for 3 hours instead of 1 and she is asleep at the same time or she ends up waking up at midnight ready to play like AndreaMMS said.

Also, she does catnap during the day - 30-45 minutes - again...it is an hour fighting with her to get 30 minutes of sleep. If I hold her, I can maybe get her to sleep for longer but if I put her down, she is usually up within 20-40 minutes. So, i feel I spend all day fighting her to sleep.

I am not really trying to follow one method - I am just trying to find something that works....and it is frustrating because with every book I read there are 10 things that I am doing wrong and then I end up confused because I don't know what to do. Yes, I think she needs to nap more - how to get her to do that - I have no idea. She is a very strong minded child. She will actually grab her eyes to keep them open and if I swaddle her, she goes nuts.

Natrat80

11-28-2005, 10:57 AM

I don't think I've ever posted here although I've read quite a bit. DD is 5 months old and we started sleep training 2 weeks ago. It was really hard, but we let her CIO and life has been so much better since. Our old nap routine (before CIO) was to read stories, play lullabies, put DD in bed and she would scream the second I put her down. Nothing worked except for letting her suck on my finger (we just gave up on the pacifier) so I would spend 30+ minutes with DD sucking on my finger while she went to sleep then I would take my finger out and she'd wake up, and we'd do it all over again. After trying lots of different things one night we decided to CIO. It had been a particularly frustrating day for me (I SAH) and by the time DH got home I was going crazy. DD would not go to sleep and would not stop crying no matter what DH did so he said that he would let her cry in the crib. I didn't want to do it, but I knew it would work and I was glad DH was brave enough to try. I had to leave the house-I took the dog for a walk and called my mom on my cell and stayed gone until DD was asleep. (She cried about 30 minutes)

Fast forward 2 weeks and DD goes down on her own for every nap and for bedtime. She "talks" a bit before falling asleep but hasn't ever cried like that first night. I feel like we have our life back. DD still loves us ;) and is so much happier because she is getting better sleep.
__________________________________________________ ______________
celina I like what jki said-try the pacifier in the pack and play and see if that works.
she does catnap during the day - 30-45 minutes - again...it is an hour fighting with her to get 30 minutes of sleep.
cr8zyforaf This was my life until we CIO! Does your DD take a pacifier? I'd try that or swaddling. Also I know your frustration about trying anything and everything. I did the same thing. Make sure you give each method a chance to work-try for a few days before moving on. I don't think I would have let my DD CIO when she was just 2 months old, but that's what worked for us at 5 months. Are you doing a naptime/calming routine? I always turn the lights off, turn on a lullaby CD, read stories, rock for a few minutes before laying DD down. I wish I could give you a better answer, because I know how frustrated you are. I could have written that post 2 weeks ago. Could you have someone come over and let you have a break and then try again when you are refreshed?? GOOD LUCK!
AndreaI know the early bedtime thing sounds scary, but give it a try. I put my DD down at 7 and that seems to be the perfect time for us. One day I tried 6 or 6:30 and she was up wanting to play after a few hours. It takes some experimenting but it usually does work!

celina

11-28-2005, 12:44 PM

jki, Natrat80

I tried it last night and after over an hour. She fell asleep in her Pack N Play. She woke up 3 hours later, I nursed her and then tried putting her back in her Pack N Play. After an hour of the pacifier routine I gave up and brought her to bed.

I’ll try again tonight. Looking back, I think my attempts to get her back in her Pack N Play after the nursing failed because I didn’t stand over her, I lied in bed next to the Pack N Play.

She has discovered her hands, but she gets frustrated when sucking on them so she gets over stimulated so I encourage the pacifier as it soothes her.

Am I ruining her with all this soothing I’m doing? Or will she naturally require less soothing as she gets older?

jki

11-28-2005, 01:59 PM

AndreaMMS: If she is overtired, start putting her down 10 minutes before you normally would. Do you have a nap routine? Also, is where she sleeps dark? Another important thing to teach is that dark = sleep.

When I started putting DD down for bed earlier, I just started her bedtime routine hours earlier. Her bedtime routine consists of a bath, bottle, story, music and a few minutes of holding/swaying. You have to behave as if you expect your baby to sleep. We've been following a consistent bedtime routine (and the Healthy Sleep Habits book) since she was born. She's now 4 months old and she mostly follows the schedule that Weissbluth outlines in the book.

If your baby is getting enough daytime sleep and enough to eat during the day, and she gets up at say, 2am, she should get up at 2am whether you put her down at 10pm or 7pm. Don't get frustrated if it initially doesn't work -sometimes it takes time for a new pattern to kick in.

cr8zyforaf: The thing with not napping is that Weissbluth says babies develop fatigue fighting hormones and once your baby has too many of those, you are headed for cat naps and major night wakings. Do you have a Baby Bjorn or a sling? When DS was little, I basically did nothing but hold him or rock him for naps - it was horrible, but he needed to develop enough melatonin in his body for him to go to sleep on his own. DS used to sleep 10 hours in a 24 hour period, despite my best efforts. So I know what it's like but there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

We are avid, anal, hardcore Weissbluth followers. Most of my friends IRL are as well. My son was colicky and every word in his book held true for him. DD is a really easygoing baby and I'm amazed she follows exactly what Weissbluth says already. I think you kind of need to find a book that works for you, a book that you believe in and stick with it.

Natrat80: That's awesome. I'm glad CIO was such a success for you! I tried it once with DS - he cried for 50 minutes and it resulted in a 20 minute nap. I decided it wasn't worth it and went back to rocking him. That is nice that you didn't have to be there to listen to your DD - that's the worst part.... my kids always sound like they are DYING when they cry.

celina: I think she will naturally require less soothing as time goes on, but I also think you need to make a concerted effort to REDUCE the amount of soothing you give her. Why does she get frustrated when sucking on her hands?

celina

11-28-2005, 07:21 PM

jki
She can't seem to "latch" on to her hand, she just kind of licks it. She tries to get the whole suction thing to happen and it doesn't work like it does with my boob or her pacifier. She tries to suck on her hand the way she does with her pacifier or my boob. She used to suck on her arms and give herself hickies. :o I tried to get her to suck on her thumb today but she wasn't having it. And although the thumb seems like an easy solution, I prefer her sucking on her pacifiers as I sterilize those often. I worry about the thumb sucking when she gets older and her hands are touching everything.

Hope that makes sense.

SarahKatG

11-28-2005, 08:56 PM

I'm new to Weissbluth and are actually taking a Weissbluth-lite approach really :) Anyhow, I have a question for you experts.

DD is 9.5 months old and lately we've been having trouble with her pm nap. She'll be in her crib for an hour talking and playing and sometimes whining, just not sleeping. Lately, after an hour has passed I've taken her for a drive to get a guaranteed 45 minute nap because otherwise bedtime will be just awful. The fact that bedtime is so bad when she doesn't get a pm nap and that she falls asleep so fast in the car make me think she is not ready to go to one nap yet.

What do you all think? Leave her in there until she does fall asleep even if it throws off bedtime? Take her out after an hour and do an early bedtime? Push am nap later and just do one nap? Do what we've been doing and get a guaranteed car nap after an hour? Thanks!

jki

11-28-2005, 09:25 PM

celina: Gotcha. I'm a paci proponent myself.... but hate the middle of the night paci replacing. I'd continue what you're doing with the pacifier/soothing. Does she take the pacifier when she goes into your bed?

SarahKatG: Here's what I think and what I'd do.... but a few questions. What time is her pm nap and what time does she normally fall asleep? How long is her window of wakefulness? Are you doing some form of physical activity before nap to ensure that she is tired? Does she eat sugar before naptime? Is her am nap particularly long? If so, you might want to wake her up after an hour to protect the pm nap.

Leave her in there until she does fall asleep even if it throws off bedtime?
I might do this to see if it is a phase. Is she getting close to a milestone or something?

Take her out after an hour and do an early bedtime?
If she is hysterical this would be a good approach. When DS was transitioning to one nap, I'd start getting him ready for bed at 4:30pm.

Push am nap later and just do one nap?
Definitely no unless there's something in your schedule that would make life easier if she only took one nap. I think 9.5 months is still too young. I know a lot of people who didn't transition until 18 months. She probably still needs the sleep, as you stated.

Do what we've been doing and get a guaranteed car nap after an hour?
Weissbluth would say no. Motionless sleep in the child's crib is best. Plus, with the cost of gas today, who wants to drive around for an hour?

SarahKatG

11-28-2005, 09:57 PM

jki, thanks for the info! A typical day looks like this:

8:00 wake
10:30-12:00 nap (we go in at 10 to wind down and nurse)
12:00-2:30 lunch and play
3:00-4:00 ideally she would nap (go in at 2:30 to relax and nurse)
4:00-6:30 play and have dinner
bedtime routine, nurse and asleep around 7:15

3 hours is usually about her max amount of wakeful time so I try to wind her down around 2.5 hours. It's hard to say on how much physical activity she gets. She is crawling so she's constantly on the move. The only thing is that she doesn't get out a ton and I do wonder if getting a little more sunlight and fresh air would do anything. As far as sugar goes, at lunch time she'll usually have some Cheerios and sometimes fruit but that would be around 12:30.

You might be on to something with the long am nap. Last week I let her go a few times because she seemed so tired with the holiday activity and she napped up to 2.5 hours in the morning. It's so hard to want to wake her up!

Good to know that you agree that she still needs two naps. I knew she wasn't ready but she's been so consistant about not going to sleep in the afternoon that I started to question it.

Since she's not hysterical, it sounds like you'd recommend just letting her be in the crib until she is either asleep or hysterical. Let's say she does fall asleep after 1.5 hours. Should I then push her bedtime back 1.5 hours or just see how she is doing and go by her cues?

Thanks again!

jki

11-29-2005, 01:42 PM

SarahKatG:
My son used to go through phases of refusing his second nap.... starting at 11 months, but he did not fully transition to one nap until 16 months.

If you were to push her bedtime back, I wouldn't push it back further than 8pm at first. Since she wakes up at 8am, this way you can ensure she still gets 12 hours. If she takes a late pm nap and still goes to sleep at 8pm, Weissbluth says that means they NEED the sleep. If she refuses to go to bed, then go by her cues. How long does she typically nap if she falls asleep around 4:30? I would maybe even wake her up after an hour to try to protect the bedtime.

I used to never be able to wake DS up from that looong morning nap. If I didn't wake him up, I just made it a one nap day and didn't even bother with the second nap. He would be melting down my 3pm. I suggest putting her in the crib so that she is used to the routine of going down for a second nap - whether she sleeps or not. Also, at least you will still get a break while she is in her crib.

HTH!

LexyLou

11-29-2005, 02:40 PM

It just took me hours to get DD down for a nap. I had her in the Bjorn but every time I tried to take her out (after 30-40 mins in it and her dead asleep) she would wake up and scream. I finally got her to fall asleep with white noise in her crib but now it's almost 3 hours since she last ate. Should I wake her to keep her on a schedule or let her sleep since she's so hard to get down to nap?

Natrat80

11-29-2005, 03:22 PM

lexylouI'd let her sleep...she'll let you know when she's hungry. ;) If you get engorged you could pump and add to your freezer stash! Sorry you're having such a hard time!

newyorkgirl

11-29-2005, 03:26 PM

Alexis, unless your DD has weight issues, I would just let her sleep. She'll wake up when she's hungry.

I'm subscribing, because I'm a reluctant Weissbluth follower. Reluctant, because I'm not particularly impressed with his book and writing style (it was all over the map, hard to follow and the anecdotes seemed completely out of place). BUT, as long as I follow the sleep cues, 1.5-2 hours wakefulness, early bedtime, etc. - it works about 80% of the time. The other 20% of the time, I am not fond of his CIO methods because we tried it a couple times during a bad-napping weekend and DS (4.5 m/o) learned to screech when he was supposed to nap and I really don't want to encourage that. DS screeched for an hour two times that day, and as a result, now, even after good naps, he'll wake up and screech until he sees me.

My question is this - suppose that DS has had two good naps that day, one around 9 am and the 2nd around 1 pm. So by now it's around 3 pm and I have errands to run before places close up. Sometimes DS takes a third nap around 4-4:30, and sometimes he doesn't. Is it all right that we go out and he happens to fall asleep in his carseat while we're out?

I figure, he's had two good naps and I do make sure he's back and will start his bedtime routine by about 7 pm and he's down by 7:30-8 pm (yes, I know this is on the late side, but it seems to work best for him). He SsTTN for the most part, with an occasional nighttime feeding and I go in to wake him up around 7-7:15 am.

cc8

12-01-2005, 11:13 AM

DD has started getting really crabby/sleepy earlier in the evenings. At first, she'd go down at 10pm (most likely overtired). Then I started watching for sleepy cues and I'd rock her to bed & she'd go down around 8:30pm.

This week, she started getting tired/crabby/sleepy around 5pm and she'd be asleep by 6:30pm.

The problem with this is that she'd then wake up at 11pm (to feed) then AGAIN at 2am and AGAIN at around 4am.

What are we doing wrong? How can we 'delay' the onset of the first evening's sleep? And what bed time would be mroe appropriate. DD is only 3+ months old so it's too early to expect her to have a 'regular' sleep schedule, right?

Basically, right now her longest sleep stretch is on the front end - say 6:30pm to 11:00pm. We want to "shift" that to, say 9pm to 3am so that we'd only need to get up 1x for a feeding.

newyorkgirl

12-01-2005, 11:43 AM

Well, HSHHC actually says bedtime should be between 6 and 8 pm. DS (4.5 months) is on the later side of that, but I know most babies around this age tend towards an earlier bedtime. And because your DD is still young, unless she's very big, I would actually expect her to still want to feed a couple times between 7 pm and 7 am. The one thing I wonder is whether one of those early morning wakings is really hunger, or whether she wants either you or your DH to keep her company. Pick the one waking you want to eliminate, then try slowly reducing the amount of feeding/nursing that you give her at that waking. When it is down to zero, and she's still waking, depending on how she reacts, go in and rub her tummy or rock her a bit to get her to go back to sleep. (Some babies, like my DS, need to be picked up and rocked. Others are okay with a little tummy rub.) Often, that's all they need. And when they realize they don't get any food when they wake up, they might actually start sleeping through, or going back to sleep on their own.

If you read the PPs, you'll see that most don't believe in trying to keep up baby past his/her ability to stay awake. However, if you do want to try and manage her feedings/wakings, you could do one of two things. One, if she is not already getting one, it may be that your DD needs a third nap during the day. When my DS needs a third nap, it usually begins around 3-4 pm and he wakes up about 5-ish. Then he goes down to bed around 7:30-8 pm. He goes down earlier on days when he won't take the third nap. Two - and HSHHC as well as a lot of people don't believe in this, but it may work for some babies - you could try doing a "dream feed" for your DD just before you go to sleep. That way, she gets to go down for bed at her biological bedtime (6:30 pm). When we did it (and we did it for a short while), I fed him when I went to bed, usually 10:30 pm, then he'd only wake up once around 3-4 am to eat. We stopped doing the late-night dream feed when it was clear that it was waking him up.

cr8zyforaf

12-01-2005, 11:53 AM

Thanks for the advice. I am not a big fan of CIO...I've tried and she literally will get herself so worked up she pukes and gags. She does use a pacifier and I do swaddle her - however, most of the time for naps the swaddling and pacifier just p*ss her off - she will scream, thrash her head back and forth, and spit the pacifier out - this goes on for as long as I am trying to get her down. I just can't understand what I am doing wrong - I look for the cues, try to get her down before she gets overly tired but I just seem to miss it every single time.

At night, it is a dance of get her to sleep on me, wait 20-30 minutes, put her down and pray that she doesn't wake - if she wakes, we start the whole routine over again. And yes, we have a routine at night - bath, massage, story, feeding, and then sleeping and I turn most of the lights out when she is done with her bath. Naps, the routine is swaddling and rocking or walking and bouncing her but most of the time that just makes her angry.

WHY IS THIS SO HARD????

cc8

12-01-2005, 12:00 PM

Thanks newyorkgirl, one thing I forgot to add is that when DD wakes up at 11pm for a feeding (the 1st feeding after a 3-4 hour sleep stretch) she BARELY takes anything before falling asleep. We think her small 11pm feeding is what is causing her to wake up again at 2am...

I'll try to push for 2 afternoon naps today (instead of her usual 1).

dbers

12-01-2005, 12:07 PM

We were doing well on sleep - lots of naps after being up for about 2 hours, asleep by 10:30 - waking once at 4am to eat - but the last 2 nights she's been up every two hours! She's still napping in the day - I don't get it!!! :confused:

allyray231

12-01-2005, 01:48 PM

jki

12-01-2005, 02:19 PM

Ok so I have a DS-6 months who wakes at night--he doesn't full wake up all the time. Usually he is on his side and he will roll to his back and his paci will fall out. He is fine for a few hrs then at about 12:30 he wakes looking for it--this happens about 4 times a night. What should I do? He isn't crying and we are in a 1 bedroom so he is right there. Should I just leave him?>

Hmmm - it will probably be a few months before he can replace it on his own. Will he go back to sleep on his own? If he will, I would just leave him. If not, IMO, you have to commit to replacing it every time it falls out or get rid of it completely. Are you using the 6+ month pacis? The nipple is much bigger than that of the newborn pacis and maybe that will prevent it from falling out.

allyray231

12-01-2005, 04:37 PM

Ohhh interesting about the nipple size. The thing is it can fall out when he first falls asleep and be fine for hours!! Then all of a sudden he needs it again. And sometimes it will fall out again and he will wake up.

Yeah not sure if I should just get rid of it or what

newyorkgirl

12-02-2005, 08:46 AM

Ack! Once you get comfortable and things are going smoothly, them babies always figure out a way to change it up!

DS - a week away from 5 months - used to take 1.5-2 hr naps but in the last few days has started to wake up about 45 minutes into each nap. Then he does one of three things: 1) fusses for a bit, then goes back to sleep (ideal but rare); 2) fusses, then starts a yell-like cry which I've understood to be protest (not ideal, most frequent); 3) screeches (also rare, but this always ends the nap as I have a limit as to how much CIO both DS and I can handle).

When he yells, it's a toss-up whether he'll go back to sleep or not, especially since he's already napped about 45 minutes. But how can I make his naps longer? He doesn't seem cranky or tired as a result of his shorter naps, but 1) I am worried that cumulatively, it will catch up to him, and 2) I can't get anything done because he no longer takes those glorious long naps!

I've tried playing with him to tire him out, taking a walk just before his nap routine, etc. I usually watch for the yawn cue, which comes after the 500-mile stare and before the eye-rubbing and fussiness, and that's always worked in the past. What's changed?

jki

12-02-2005, 09:17 AM

newyorkgirl:
Is Bennet taking 2 or 3 naps per day? If he is on 3 naps, it's possible he's ready to drop one. If he's already on 2 naps, then perhaps he's teething or reaching a milestone.

But how can I make his naps longer?
Ugh - no good advice here.... If I can catch Cassidy RIGHT when she wakes up, she can sometimes be soothed back to sleep. I give her her pacifier and turn on her naptime music.

What's changed?
How many hours are you keeping him up between naps? I find that if Cassidy has slept well during the period prior to the nap, she cay stay up for 2 hours, but if she only took a 1 hour nap or less, I start getting her ready for the next nap at 1 hour and 15 minutes. Do you go by the clock or solely by cues?

I would probably continue doing what's worked in the past for a week or so before making any changes - he might fall back into his old sleep patterns.

SiValleySteph

12-02-2005, 09:58 AM

I have a question for you HSHHC followers. Does this book apply to toddlers at all?

DS was a resonable sleeper (only waking 1-2 overnnight to nurse) up until the last few weeks. He's getting his eye teeth and is waking 5,6, even 7 times overnight crying. Motrin does not seem to be helping. We need to find a solution since we are all pretty tired, but are really at a loss as to where to start since he is not really a baby anymore. He is 14 months. He takes 1 nap a day between 1-2 hours at a set time. He is in daycare, so I can't increase his napping. (He is always the first kid up, they tell me.)

Any ideas or recommendations for reading material?

newyorkgirl

12-02-2005, 11:58 AM

jki, most days, he's a 2-nap baby. He could very well be teething. He's been chomping down on everything in sight, including me. Ow.

I do a combination of watching cues and watching the clock. A prior bad nap usually means a 1.5 hour window (or earlier if he starts yawning early). A prior good nap means he can generally stretch up to the 2 hour window, but I always put him down earlier if he starts showing the signs. I'm wondering whether I'm catching the cues too early and putting him down when he's still in his wakeful period? But, no... prolly not. :)

I'll keep doing what I'm doing for a few more days and see how it goes. Would y'all recommend an even earlier bedtime to make sure his not-so-great napping doesn't spill over into his night sleep? Or, if he's sleeping great from 7:30 pm to 7:00 am, should I just leave it be?

jki

12-03-2005, 08:56 PM

Would y'all recommend an even earlier bedtime to make sure his not-so-great napping doesn't spill over into his night sleep? Or, if he's sleeping great from 7:30 pm to 7:00 am, should I just leave it be?

newyorkgirl: How's it going?

YES - I'd definitely recommend an earlier bedtime. IIRC, Weissbluth suggests that you put DC to bed 20 minutes earlier. If he goes right to sleep, then he NEEDS the sleep. If he plays in his crib, then you might want to stick with the regular bedtime. I used to put DS to sleep about 30 minutes earlier on crap nap days and he always went right to sleep. Oh - and I also wouldn't worry about DS waking up earlier if you put him to sleep earlier. DS NEVER, EVER woke up earlier than his normal time if I put him to bed earlier.

SiValleySteph: IMO, HSHHC focuses more on months 0-12. The toddler section is pretty slim. No ideas for reading material right now. If I come across something, I will post.

newyorkgirl

12-04-2005, 05:57 AM

jki Thanks, we'll try putting him down a little earlier then. Bennett's still not napping well, but we're about 75% sure it's teething. He's gumming down on anything and everything.

This, actually, is one of the beefs I have with HSHHC. Weissbluth claims that teething should not affect sleep. Are you kidding me? I've had toothaches before and there's not a chance I could have slept well through that.

LeslieR

12-05-2005, 09:20 AM

Ugh-I need some support! This week I am trying to get Luke to nap in his crib. So far we're failing miserably. lol He sleeps in his crib just fine at night, but refuses to nap anywhere but in the swing or in my arms during the day. I got him to sleep in the rocker in his room about a half hour ago, put him in the crib, and his eyes popped right open. I turned the monitor on and ran out of the room. He talked to himself for a bit which then escalated to whining. It sounded like he was getting more upset (he wasn't crying, rarely does), so I just went up there, patted his tummy and told him he needed to go to sleep. He smiled and laughed like it was a big game and I guiltily left the room. Now I'm back downstairs again listening to him. First he was whining and now he is singing. And now we're back to whining. Ugh. Anyone care to share tips on how you got baby to nap in the crib during the day? I don't know if I should just keep this up or just let this nap go at this point.:( I'm pretty sure he's not going to go to sleep at this point. Oh, now he's crying. gotta go!

SiValleySteph

12-05-2005, 10:08 AM

Thanks jki for your input! I will look for some other reading material then since we are too late for HSHC. :)

newyorkgirl

12-05-2005, 11:18 AM

Leslie, your DS is a little younger than mine, and Bennett only started napping in his crib a couple weeks ago, so I wouldn't stress too much about it just yet.

Is the swing swinging while he naps? We used to do that too, and then after I read HSHHC, I started to turn the swing off after Bennett fell asleep. Surprisingly, he'd actually nap longer. After he got used to motionless sleep in his swing, we started to slowly transition into the crib - first morning naps, and when he took to that well, then we transitioned the afternoon nap as well.

HTH!

katzmeow671

12-05-2005, 11:26 AM

bump so I can read later

SD601

12-05-2005, 12:44 PM

I'm so exhausted. My kid will not sleep. With lots of rocking, sometimes nursing, and shushhing, he will eventually fall asleep upright on our shoulders, but if we ever try to put him down, he will wake up. I serioulsy don't care where he sleeps: swing, bouncer, crib, co-sleeper, our bed--he wakes up anywhere, but if he's on our shoulder, we can put him back to sleep by quickly rocking. Honestly, we can't do anything...and it's affecting both DH and me.

DS's problem: he can't fall alseep or stay asleep on his own. We even co-sleep, and he wakes up EVERY hour...and it's not even wanting to nurse. Last night (and the past week) he slept from 6pm-9 (ate), 9:30-12 (ate) 12-1, 2-3, 4-4:45 (ate), up at 5:30am.

I hold him for naps during the day in hope he will get some sleep. But he still wakes up. Co-sleeping doesn't help. He's on reflux meds...a high dosage...he's fed, burped...

Last night we let him CIO..which I don't even believe in...it lasted 45 min until we couldn't take it...we heard him gagging. He was soaked in sweat and tears. I doubt he could sleep that wet anyway.

Any suggestions? We swaddle, try white noise, have the crib on an incline, do a nightly routine, have had him checked by the ped...sigh...I don't know what else to do. Mommy and Daddy and not doing well.

ETA: I'm on day 4 of the elimination diet. I haven't seen improvements.

katzmeow671

12-05-2005, 01:01 PM

Laura, since I'm the one who bumped up the thread this AM I don't have any advice for you but I certainly do have a lot of empathy!! I'm so exhausted I can't see straight. Your story is mine exactly! DD will sleep fine on us but not in her crib. This is a big change for us because she usually sleeps like a princess! Needless to say, after a week of this we're so tired we can't think straight. I'm thinking she might be teething but she didn't have this sort of trouble with her bottom teeth.

Anyway, just wanted you to know when you're awake tonight, I'm probably awake too. :)

SD601

12-05-2005, 01:39 PM

thanks, Betsey. Actually, DS has never been a good sleeper. It's almost difficult to think that's it's actually us, you know? I mean, I keep thinking, what I am doing wrong? I'll be thinking of you tonight, too.

majorgal

12-05-2005, 02:41 PM

Laura: My DS was similar for a bit--up several times at night for a while. Based on advice from a friend, I tried Ferber when Aidan was 3 1/2 months. Waaaay too early. We had the same problem--the crying was just not going to work.

I would not suggest trying CIO again until your DD is at least 6 months old--even Ferber suggests that. We did it again with Aidan when he was 6 months and it worked amazingly well (STTN after two nights of 30-40 minutes crying...it may have seemed like a lot, but it was different crying than when we tried CIO earlier).

In the meantime, I don't have a lot of advice. For me, eventually, letting Aidan co-sleep was the easiest solution. When he got up at 3ish, I would just bring him in with us. I didn't sleep as well as I did when I was alone (I woke when Aidan woke/stirred), but I still felt better. I admit, for much of Aidan's life between 3 and 4 1/2 months, I slept in the glider with him on my shoulder. I just couldn't get anything else to work.

I wish I had something better to offer, but I just want to say I have been there and it CAN get a lot easier. A lot. It just needs time.

jki

12-05-2005, 03:24 PM

Laura:
Do you have a Baby Bjorn? Since your DS likes to be held upright, I bet he'd love the Bjorn - you'd have your hands free, but it doesn't help much in the mommy exhaustion department. :( It's also easy to soothe them back to sleep in the Bjorn.

How much does he sleep in a 24 hour period? My DS used to sleep 10 hours in a 24 hour period. People said maybe he didn't need so much sleep. I read HSHHC and he started sleeping 16-17 hours in a 24 hour period.

Does he take a pacifier? My DS was picky and I went out and bought every pacifier until I found one he liked. I also used pacis for 6+ month babies because the nipples are bigger and he couldn't spit them out as easily. I used the Bjorn and the pacifier and DS finally started sleeping.

One of Weissbluth's main things is that sleep begets sleep so I would continue doing what you're doing as far as letting him sleep anywhere and doing whatever it takes to get him to sleep. Once he develops some sleep hormones, I would start working on other areas.

Since your son has reflux, has your ped recommended that he sleep on his stomach? I have a lot of friends whose peds have recommended this for babies with reflux. Even if your ped has NOT recommended this, it might or might not be something you wish to try. Both my kids slept better on their stomachs and after evaluating the risks, we put our kids to sleep on their stomachs. This is VERY controversial and we received a GIANT lecture from our ped so I don't even know if I should post this.....

LeslieR

12-05-2005, 04:46 PM

newyorkgirl, thanks for the reply! So, you think he's too young to really worry about it right now? I feel like he's not getting good naps the way things are now. Not to mention, he's going to be too big for his swing soon. We have a playard down here, too, and he won't sleep in there, either. I don't know how it is that he sleeps fine in his crib at night, but he does.:confused: I'm starting to feel like a slave to the living room because that's where the swing is or where he usually falls asleep in my lap. I can't get anything done because I'm so busy trying not to make noise so that he doesn't wake up.:rolleyes: When I do put him in the swing, I don't turn off the motion (even though I know that's what Weissbluth recommends) because he will wake up as soon as the motion stops. I suppose I could try to wean him off the motion-I know he doesn't need it because he sleeps in my lap just fine. Actually, I really haven't been putting him in the swing as much the past two weeks when I think about it. I think I've been letting him sleep in my lap more and more because I know he'll stay asleep whereas if I put him down, it's not guaranteed that he will. He always nurses to sleep, so whenever I do put him down-he's usually out cold. It's when his head hits the mattress (or whatever) that he wakes up. I guess I need some tips on how to handle this part (whether I keep trying to tackle it now or later). If he wakes up once I put him down, what then? Do I leave the room and let him fuss and hope he puts himself to sleep? And then what happens when he doesn't? I know this is kind of a personal thing and I guess I need to go with my gut. I'm not comfortable with letting him cry because he is not a baby that normally cries unless something is really wrong, KWIM? How many times do I keep going back in there before I just call it quits? I feel confident that once he's awake like that he won't put himself back to sleep. He can do it at night because there have been plenty of times I have heard him awake on the monitor fussing a bit and then silence because he's fallen back asleep. I don't know why the daytime sleep is such a different ballgame from the nighttime sleep!!!:rolleyes:

SD601

12-05-2005, 05:09 PM

thanks majorgal and jki. Actually, since he hates being put down, I use my sling and mei tais frequently. However, I have to be actively moving for him to tolerate them. He *somehow* seems to know the difference between walking around the house and outside.

He sleeps on his side. I try him on his tummy, but then he thinks it's tummy time and quickly wakes up. Oh, I wish he would take a pacifier.

Yeah, I won't try CIO again. I had to eat today and I left him crying in his crib for only about 5-10 min. Again, he was hysterical and soaking wet. I really don't think he gets enough sleep, either during the day or at night. It's very tough, since for naps, he only sleeps well in my arms in the glider. He wakes up and cries if I try to bring him to bed, which means I can't even nap during the day. DH bought me one of those travel pillows, but it's hard to sleep.

I think it's just so disheartening to think that there's no end in sight. I mean, when he was a newborn, I was sleep deprived and held him constantly, but I knew it had an end, you know? But almost 4 months of less than 4 hours a night (and not consecutively) is really taking its toll.

SD601

12-05-2005, 05:12 PM

Leslie, I'm seriously not one to give you advice, since I'm very clueless and my baby is nuts, but in my opinion, you don't want to mess up daytime naps. So I would helps soothe him if his fussing doesn't subside, since you want him rested for nighttime. I know what it's like to be a slave to your baby's sleeping habits. I would keep *trying* to put him down, but only if you know you might have to work to get him back by soothing.

majorgal

12-05-2005, 06:40 PM

Laura: If it is any comfort, DS did not take a pacifier until he was about 4 1/2 months. When he finally did take one (a playtex latex one) he started to sleep a bit better and go to sleep much better on his own. Definitely wait on CIO for a bit. You may never do it again, or you may give it a shot. I just wouldn't do it now. How much sleep is your son getting now? When I realized he needed more, I just let him sleep wherever in order to get the sleep. Eventually it all worked out.

I remember well how hard this point was--the 3ish month mark. You think you are going to go insane for lack of sleep and you think you will never, ever get quality sleep again. You will...I promise. Keep trying to get him to sleep on his own. When he is ready he will do it. Just keep giving him the opportunity to do it on his own.

Good luck.

newyorkgirl

12-05-2005, 06:50 PM

Leslie, I know it sucks to be a slave to DS's sleep & nap schedule. It drives me batty sometimes that I can't get out of the house until 3 pm, after his afternoon nap.

I don't think Luke is too young to transition to the crib, but it's going to take some time. :) From what you're saying, it sounds like he first needs to find someplace (other than Mommy!) to take his naps peacefully, whether it's the swing (motion or motionless), a rocker, or the crib. We used to have the swing in the living room as well, but we moved it into Bennett's room. It makes it a little cramped, but that's the only way I can put him in it, close the door, and go about my business without worrying about waking him up with my activity. (And the reason we transitioned from the swing to the crib was also because I feared he was going to outgrow it soon too!) It also helps to associate his room with sleeping. His room has blackout drapes, and is usually dim during the daytime and dark at night. We don't have any bright lights in there. He naps and gets his dipes changed there. I also have a comfy chair in there where I nurse him before naps and at bedtime. All other activity happens in other areas of the house, where it is much brighter.

If you are not comfortable with CIO, don't worry about it. I don't do it either, but I do make the distinction between fussing/settling down to sleep and full-on crying. Also, it might help if you help Luke find other ways of soothing himself. Does he suck his thumb/fingers or take a paci? Have you thought about introducing a lovey? Bennett has a floppy elephant lovey that I let him hold when I nurse him down for his naps and bedtime. He gets to keep it in the crib when he naps, but I haven't given it to him at bedtime yet because I worry that he'll play with it instead of going back to sleep when he wakes up at night. He's semi-attached to it, but it helps when he wakes up sometimes after I've nursed him and while I'm setting him down in the crib - I see him clutch and unclutch the elephant over and over and suck his thumb and he goes right to sleep.

Another thing you could try - and this could backfire, but it's worth a shot - get everything prepared so that all you have to do is carry him over to the crib and put him down. Then nurse Luke until his eyes start rolling back and he's about to conk out, but he hasn't yet. Carefully pop him off, if he hasn't already unlatched himself, and swiftly but gently put him in the crib. He may be so much on the way to dreamland that he won't care as much that he's no longer being carried by you.

While you are trying to transition him, he may not take great naps. When he has a bad nap day, you might want to try and put him down 15-30 minutes earlier at night to make sure he gets enough sleep. But it takes a bit of time - this is when sleep organization is happening (4-6 months), so he may just be taking a little more time than most to get into a schedule. :)

LeslieR

12-06-2005, 08:56 AM

:cross posted from the August Mommies thread:

Hurray, hurray!!! Luke is napping in his crib RIGHT NOW! It's been about 30minutes or so. LOVE IT! I nursed him to sleep, put him in the crib (with the burp rag that I had draped across the boppy under his head thinking two things-warmth instead of cold sheet and hopefully the smell of me for comfort), as soon as he hit the mattress, the hands went up to rub the eyes and the nose and he started whining. So, I thought about the one thing missing from his nighttime sleep and that was swaddling, so I hurried up and swaddled him, nursed him a bit more, waited until he was out cold, and put him back in the crib where he stayed asleep. Yay!!! Of course, NOW I hear him on the monitor talking a bit. Oh well, it's a start, right? At least I got to take a shower.

LexyLou

12-06-2005, 10:04 AM

Ok, so I moved DD's bedtime up to 8 pm (from 9 pm) and even though she's going down pretty easily, she's waking up more at night. She's 10 weeks old and I know she's ready to go down at 8 because she starts yawning and getting cranky and she falls right asleep but before she would give me a 6.5 hour stretch and then another 3.5-4 hour stretch.

The past two nights when she's gone down at 8 she gives me at most a 4 hour stretch and then another 3-4 hour stretch and then a 2 hour stretch. She hasn't woken up more than once a night since she was 7 weeks old and now she's up to 2 and last night she even got up 3 times.

Any suggestions on why this is?

cc8

12-06-2005, 11:21 AM

LexyLou, I think it was a good idea to move up your DD's bedtime since she was displaying sleepy cues. I unfortunately don't have an answer re: additional night wakings. Is she hungry/going through a growth spurt?

hiphopgirl

12-06-2005, 12:29 PM

X-posted from August mommies:

Last night I had convinced myself that I was going to let him CIO, but then DH caved and tried to bounce him. I told him that I didn't want to continue to bounce him to sleep his whole life so I tried nursing him again. He finally fell asleep, but then was up at 1, 3, 5, and finally 6:30 for the day. We gave him a paci at 1 & 5 so I still only fed him once. Here's my question, will he eventually learn to sleep through the times that I just give him a paci, or do I eventually need to let him cio at those times too? I tried just giving him the paci at 3 also, but he was not going back to sleep for anything. Should I have just let him cio? It just seems that he gets to a point where he is so worked up that he has an even harder time falling asleep. Am I over thinking it? Should I be trying to work on getting him to fall asleep at the same time I'm working on him sttn? In the book it seemed like as soon as the parents got the babies to sleep on their own, that they also sttn. This does not seem to be the case for us. It feels like two different issues to me, but I guess if he can eventually self-soothe to sleep in the first place, he should be able to do it in the middle of the night too.

He turns 5 months next week, and I kind of thought he'd be sttn by now. I guess I need to re-read HSHHC.

jki

12-06-2005, 12:45 PM

LexyLou:
How were her naps yesterday? Weissbluth says that nap deprivation causes night wakings. Are you making sure that she does not stay up for more than two hours at any given point during the day? I honestly do not think her additional night wakings have anything to do with the earlier bedtime. Did she eat during the extra time she woke up? Did she eat well? If so, she is probably hungry and maybe she didn't get enough to eat during the day? cc8's suggestion of a growth spurt is also a possibility.

If I were you, I'd stick with the earlier bedtime for a week - you can't go wrong with that, especially if her cues say she is tired - if she still wakes up multiple times per night and you can't take it, go back to the later bedtime.

hiphopgirl:
With CIO, IMO, it's all or nothing. You have to be totally consistent. If you are doing CIO and you are inconsistent, it's like starting over every night. With the paci, you can go either way - either replace it for him every single time or don't replace it at all.

It just seems that he gets to a point where he is so worked up that he has an even harder time falling asleep.
I think you sort of have to go with your intuition. Maybe CIO is not going to work for your son and you might have to try a different approach. Also, maybe CIO will not work for you and your DH if you can't be consistent, YK?

LexyLou

12-06-2005, 01:50 PM

JKI-She's never been a good napper but in the past week I've been able to get her to nap more than ever. I used white noise and have been able to put her in her crib and she'll pass out. She actually had taken a 3 hour nap from 2:15-5:15 pm so she was pretty well rested but I'm sure she's still catching up on sleep because from weeks 4-8 I did everything in my power but it was very difficult to get her to take naps...but she always slept well at night (probably from exhaustion).

She's sleeping in her swing right now. I know motionless sleep is best but right now I'm in the anything that works camp. :)

She could be going through a little growth spurt. She wants to eat every two hours during the day vs. 2 1/2-3 hours and I also feel like I'm losing some supply. I used to be able to feed her every 2 hours and still pump 4 oz in 10 minutes and now I can barely get a total of 3 oz in 20 minutes. I hope the mini pill isn't affecting my supply.

hiphopgirl

12-06-2005, 01:58 PM

JKI, good point. I know that we need to be consistent. I will try it again tonight. I guess I just want to know (assuming I can be consistent) will DS eventually sttn if I am putting the paci in his mouth when he wakes up or will he continue to be used to waking up for the paci? I don't want to substitute nightly feedings with nightly paci insertions, especially since he seems to be waking up MORE frequently now that I'm not feeding him in the middle of the night.

Background info: he was sleeping all the way to 5:00 am (what I would consider sttn) about 6 weeks ago. I never did any sleep training for that to happen he just did it on his own. Then, out of nowhere, he started waking up in the middle of the night again and I haven't been able to get him back to sttn since then. I'm wondering if I should just give up on the sleep training and let him figure it out on his own like he did before.

jki

12-06-2005, 02:26 PM

LexyLou:
JKI-She's never been a good napper but in the past week I've been able to get her to nap more than ever.
Whoo hoo! That's awesome.... that probably also means her sleep will turn a corner soon!

She could be going through a little growth spurt. She wants to eat every two hours during the day vs. 2 1/2-3 hours and I also feel like I'm losing some supply. I used to be able to feed her every 2 hours and still pump 4 oz in 10 minutes and now I can barely get a total of 3 oz in 20 minutes. I hope the mini pill isn't affecting my supply.
If she is going through a growth spurt, feed her as much as possible during the day, make sure she gets plenty of sleep during the day and once the growth spurt is over, you should see an improvement in her sleep!

I don't know about your supply - but I think it could be affecting your supply. Have you posted about this in the BF thread?

hiphopgirl:
Another thought - is he teething?

That is weird that he started waking up in the middle of the night out of nowhere!! Is he able to suck on his hands to soothe himself?
I guess I just want to know (assuming I can be consistent) will DS eventually sttn if I am putting the paci in his mouth when he wakes up or will he continue to be used to waking up for the paci?
I never did any ST with my DS (I just followed HSHHC) and he started sleeping through the night on his own.... DD, on the other hand, had a solid week of CIO (multiple times per night), until she figured out how to soothe herself. To this day, I sometimes play the paci insertion game with her since it's better to have 2 people up vs. 4!

I guess I think you have to get rid of the paci or commit to replacing it until he can replace it himself or wait until he figures out a way to soothe himself.

LexyLou

12-06-2005, 02:27 PM

Ok, someone reassure me or tell me if I'm doing this wrong because I feel like a horrible mother.

Ella was just napping in her swing but she kept waking up and I could tell it wasn't good sleep so I picked her up and she melted in my arms while yawning so obviously tired and put her in her crib. She started to cry and I rubbed her back for a couple of minutes and then left. She cried pretty hard but not screaming for about 4 minutes and then stopped and then after about 3 minutes started crying a little less for about 2 minutes then stopped and did it again. It's been about 5 minutes and I haven't heard her make a noise. Scratch that, she just started crying/whimpering again.

Is it horrible to let her do this at 10 weeks old? It just seems like the only way to get her to sleep. She fights it so much and the swing, bouncy, even rocking doesn't seem to work. Since I've been doing this she's been sleeping more but I feel so horrible letting her cry for 10 minutes (which is my max).

Is this the right thing to do? Or is there a better way to get her to nap?

hiphopgirl

12-06-2005, 03:46 PM

I don't think he's teething, but it's hard to tell. I don't see any swelling on his gumline, but he's been chewing on every thing lately, and he's constantly drooling.

Maybe I should wait to ST until he can put the paci back in his mouth. I just can't bear to listen to him get all worked up - especially since he seems to have a harder time getting back to sleep. Thanks for your help.

cc8

12-06-2005, 04:58 PM

Lex, this might be considered controversial (my reply, I mean) but I don't see any problem with letting DD cry for a bit. We used to pick up our DD all the time - we immediately went to her whenever she cried. What we wound up with is a DD that HAD to be held/picked up all day long. It was horrible. So we had to try to "undo" our "mistake" and let DD cry for a bit. NOW she can be in her crib, gymni, highchair etc for increasing lengths of time.

So IMO, I don't think what you are doing is wrong. Also, IMO 10 minutes is not CIO. Don't feel bad - you're not a bad mother. :)

jki

12-06-2005, 06:27 PM

LexyLou:
Please do not feel like you are a horrible mother! You seem like a wonderful mother who is doing everything possible for her child! CIO is a very personal decision - no one can tell you if it's right or wrong for you!

My DD has inadvertently been CIO since birth. Since I have an older child, there are times (4 times per day, to be specific) where DS needs his poopy diaper changed or where DS needs something immediately... as a result, DD ends up crying unattended. I wish it wasn't like that, but it is. The end result is that DD is easily able to soothe herself but I also feel like she needs to let out a few really loud yelps before going to sleep.

I agree that 10 minutes is not really CIO. Weissbluth's guidelines are (for babies 4 mos and older) 1 HOUR of crying for naps and unlimited crying at night. I have heard of sleep consultants in SF doing CIO for babies as young as 4 WEEKS and resulting in STTN.

Hang in there - my DS was colicky and it was so frustrating but I do believe that if you follow Weissbluth, there is an end at the tunnel!

hiphopgirl:
Good luck! :)

summerbaby

12-06-2005, 10:18 PM

I know I'm not a regular on this thread but I lurk quite often as I try to follow Weissbluth's approach. Today has been one of the worst days. 5 month old DD has been up for 10 hours straight (:eek:) and we are entering 4th hour trying to go to bed (:( ) I don't blame her since she's recovering from a virus, is teething, and got a shot today. Mama's sick as well. Daddy's out of town. :(

This is so stressful and I'm soooo worried that my baby is well on her way to becoming an overtired child.

Sorry to hijack the thread...

majorgal

12-07-2005, 09:08 AM

summerbaby: I don't have any words of advice for you, just a whole lot of sympathy. I hope you both eventually got some sleep last night...

cr8zyforaf

12-07-2005, 09:24 AM

summerbaby - so so sorry for you. Is there any way you can call somone over and take a break???

jki

12-07-2005, 10:27 AM

summerbaby -
:( I can totally empathize. I hope you gave her some Tylenol and that she eventually went to bed!!

summerbaby

12-07-2005, 12:59 PM

Thanks guys.... Yeah, eventually we did okay. She slept through the night. She just went down for her first nap though. I don't know why naps are soooo hard for her. This sleep begetting sleep thing is so true. Unfortunately for DD, it's lack of sleep begetting more lack of sleep. :(

scubasam

12-07-2005, 03:11 PM

Hi ladies,

I'm just starting to read HSHHC, am trying to get DS (who is 11 1/2 wks) to go to bed earlier and hoping to get a little advice from you guys. Since wk 2, DS has always fallen asleep for the night (by himself) between 10-11pm. His nighttime wakeups for feedings are currently down to 1-3 times. He would wakeup for the day around 9am and then would only catnap here and there and then have one good long nap from about 4-6pm. We were in a pretty good routine but things have started to change so I started reading. I realized that he is now getting drowzy and cranky starting at around 7:30-8pm so I decided to shift his bedtime to 8pm rather than 10-11pm. He is undoubtedly tired but refuses to go to sleep. The last 2 nights it took me 3-4 hours to get him to sleep. I made sure he was fed, tried rocking him, tried not rocking him, let him cry for a few periods of about 10-20 minutes, cuddled him, etc....essentially everything I could think of that might work.

I know that some of this new phase he's in could have to do with his age and that he also started daycare 3 wks ago so his naps may not be consistent. I'm going to ask SIL (his daycare provider) to keep track of his naptimes so I can get a diary going.

So, I'm wondering if this is normal when trying to change their bedtime and that it'll get better if we keep this routine consistent or if there is something I'm not doing? Any other suggestions?

LexyLou

12-08-2005, 09:10 PM

Can you guys post your nap time routines? I cannot for the love of god get my DD to take a nap. She's 10 weeks old and should be sleeping 4-5 hours during the day and if I can get her down for 1-2 hours total I'm lucky.

I can sometimes get her down for the nap but she never sleeps longer than 30 minutes and I try to get her back down again but it doesn't work.

I'm trying the drowsy but awake with white noise.

Our night routine is golden and she goes down without a fight at all but naps are hell. I think I need a better consistent nap routine.

newyorkgirl

12-09-2005, 07:29 AM

We have a very simple naptime routine. DS's nursery is dimlit and all other areas of the house are bright, so when it's sleeptime (whether nap or bedtime) I nurse him in his room. (I nurse in the bright living room at all other times.) I sing him the same song I sing at bedtime, and he gets to clutch his elephant lovey while he nurses.

gmooter

12-09-2005, 07:31 AM

Hi LexyLou! My DD is just over 3 months old. It seems like her limit of awake time is 2-2.5 hours. She wakes up around 7am and then naps for about 45 minutes at 9 or 9:30. She'll usually go a longer stretch before an afternoon nap around 12:30 and sleeps for 1.5-2.5 hours. She then takes another 45 minute cat nap around 4 or 5. She then goes to bed around 8pm. I usually look for her clues like rubbing her eyes or getting fussy. I swaddle her (now with one arm out because I'm trying to break her of it) and walk her up to her room. She's usually pretty dozed off by then and I put her in her crib. Sometimes she'll just fall asleep and sometimes she needs the pacifier to settle her down. Hope that helps!

knzbound

12-09-2005, 08:05 AM

LexyLou--My DD2 is just a few weeks older than yours and she also takes very short naps, if I can get her down for them at all. Most last about 40-50 minutes, adding up to maybe three hours of napping on a good day. The only time she'll sleep longer is if we are out and about and she'll doze off in the car and keep dozing in her carseat after we bring her in. (I know, I know, big no-no those motion naps, but whatever.) It's been weeks since she slept for longer than an hour in her crib during the day. My older daughter was the same way. Nothing longer than 50 minutes for months, despite using a "napping routine," which consisted of diaper change, same book, nursing, into crib. I say this because eventually, like maybe around 4-5 months, when her naps consolidated the naps got longer. I am counting on this happening again w/DD2 and I'm trying not to stress about the short naps now.

cc8

12-09-2005, 08:18 AM

Lex, like knz's DD, my DD takes increasingly shorter naps as well. FWIW, I am actually viewing this as somewhat of a positive thing because in the beginning, DD had MAJOR day-night confusion and she'd nap for 4-5 hours straight :eek:

Our general "routine", if it can even be called that is:

Up for the day anytime between 6:00-7:00am
Feeding/play time
Nap #1 starts anytime between 9:00-9:30am
Nap #2 starts approx 1pm-ish
Nap #3 starts approx 3-4pm ish

Sometimes there is Nap #4 which would be around 6pm-ish.

As you can see, DD is all over the board. I don't "force" naps, just watch for sleepy cues per HSHHC. For DD's naps, she is ALWAYS in her crib. We do completely motionless sleep. Sometimes tho, she will have to fall asleep on me and then I transfer her to her crib.

ETA: DD went down for nap #1 at 8am today...as I mentioned, she's all over the board with her "schedule".

cc8

12-09-2005, 08:32 AM

DD is 15 weeks old and used to be a chronic "waker". In the very beginning, she was getting up every 1.5-2 hours.

We got to a point where she was waking up 2x a night for feedings.

My question is, if she wakes up more than 2x during the night, should we FORGOE feeding her during that additional waking? I am just afraid that we are "training" her to expect so many night feedings by always feeding her when she wakes.

This was DD last night:
Down for the night at 8pm-9pm
Up for feeding at 11pm
Up for feeding ats 1:30am when she took 4 oz
Up for feeding at 3am when she BFed only from one side b/f falling asleep
Up at 5:45am when she BFed only from one side

She didn't go back to bed after the 5:45am waking unfortunately.

Is this all just part of normal development or do we need to more strictly "train" DD and phase out one of the feedings?

newyorkgirl

12-09-2005, 08:42 AM

cc8, how much does she weigh? I would check with your ped to see whether your DD needs to eat that frequently at night. Generally, when they reach that age, they should be able to go through the night with 1-2 feedings. DS started sleeping 12 hours straight about a couple weeks ago and I think he's only slightly older than your DD. BUT, all babies need different things - some babies, like babies with reflux, eat smaller meals more frequently and other babies gorge and go longer between feedings. One way to check whether she really needs that feeding is to slowly phase out the feeding that you want to eliminate - which will probably be the one with the shortest time interval, i.e. if she goes down at 8, wakes at 1:30, 2:30 and 4, you can probably eliminate the 2:30 am feeding. If she regularly nurses for 30 minutes, try nursing 25 minutes, then the next night, nurse 20 minutes, etc., until you are down to zero. If she continues to wake, try to get her to go to sleep without nursing, i.e. rocking, rubbing tummy, etc. If she continues to cry her hungry cry, then she probably needs that feeding.

ETA: Often, when baby realizes she isn't getting fed when she wakes up, she'll go back to sleep on her own, or not wake up at all at that time.

cc8

12-09-2005, 08:49 AM

newyorkgirl, that is what's so frustrating - I'm reading about ALL THESE BABIES STTN who are about the same age/weight as DD.

On 11/28 at her last ped appt, DD was 12lbs, 14 oz so IMO she should be STTN. Our ped says that since she is waking around 11pm, that **soon**/eventually, should be her last feed and that she should be able to go all the way until 6am w/o eating.

jki

12-09-2005, 10:14 AM

LexyLou: With DS, our nap routine was - draw shades, turn on music, sway/rock for 3-4 songs, pacifier, blankie, crib. If it didn't work and he didn't go to sleep, then I put him in the Bjorn. I wouldn't worry about the short naps - I would, however, worry about keeping her up longer than 2 hours at a time. With DS, if we had a bad nap day, I was always surely in for a bad night.

cc8: Remember that Weissbluth says that anything less than an hour does not count as a nap.

Have you considered that it's possible that Alexis really does still need to eat at night? I know people who have had to feed their babies up until 8 months. Even Weissbluth says that some babies do need to eat at night. How much is she eating during the day? DS used to eat every hour if I BF him and every 3 hours after formula. How much are you BF vs. FF? He slept 12-13 hours at night so he needed to eat a LOT during the day. Is Alexis getting enough to eat during the day?

Personally, I 'force' naps. If 2 hours have gone by without DD exhibiting sleepy cues, she goes down for a nap REGARDLESS. If your DD starts acting cranky/sleep, you've waited TOO LONG to put her down. To get the best nap, the timing needs to be right. Too early, they cry. Too late, they're overtired and they cry. I think you may be keeping her up too long - if her naps are short, based on your schedule, are you keeping her up for 3 hours at a time? As a result of keeping her up too long, fatigue fighting hormones are developing in her body, causing her to wake at night.

newyorkgirl

12-09-2005, 10:51 AM

cc8, I agree with jki. I hope you don't think I was implying that your DD should be STTN. Some babies still will need to eat, especially if they are more grazers than eaters, and especially if they are BF'ed. In fact, I am currently worried about DS's weight gain because he's eliminated his night feedings. (So if it isn't one thing, it's another. ;) )

You might want to try eliminating that fourth nap and putting her down for the night around 6-7 pm - it sounds like your DS may be somewhat sleep-deprived (which might be what is causing the night wakings). I know when DS starts waking at night, it signals to me that he isn't getting enough sleep and he goes down half an hour early until the night wakings stop.

newyorkgirl

12-09-2005, 12:49 PM

Sometimes, while DS is napping or (less rarely) sleeping [at night], he will all of a sudden let out a big wail. It usually doesn't wake him up, but I always worry that it will. Does anyone know what this is? He is too young for night terrors, no? I feel so awful when it happens.

cc8

12-09-2005, 01:08 PM

Thanks Jen & newyorkgirl. So I spoke to our ped today. Since Alexis is still pretty light and small, we're thinking that she indeed still does need to eat at night at least 2x. The ped said that for now, we should try to operate on feedings at 11PM (since this is DD's natural wake up time anyway), 3AM and 6AM.

And we were also advised to make sure DD eats plenty during the day.

I guess there is only so much I can do :)

I'm surprised to hear/read about so many HUGE babies that are DD's age....

jki

12-09-2005, 02:18 PM

cc8:
Very interesting that your ped thinks Alexis still needs to eat TWICE at night. I checked Cassidy's log and she was down to one nighttime feeding at 6 weeks old - I believe she was around 11 lbs. at the time. It seems weird to me that a 3+ month old, partially FF baby should need to eat twice at night.

Also, a note on eating plenty during the day.... I took Cassidy to a feeding therapist and the feeding therapist said absolutely NO snacking and that babies need to eat larger quantities at regular intervals. She said it's extremely important for the development of their digestive systems for their stomachs to empty completely between each feeding. Not to mention the fact that it's too much work on the mom when the baby snacks.

newyorkgirl:
He is definitely too young for night terrors but I have no idea on the wailing. Probably a good question for the ped.

cc8

12-09-2005, 03:00 PM

Jen,

I think what I typed up earlier was confusing. I spoke to the nurse today at my ped's office (not our ped directly). She says that we should try to feed DD at 11pm, at approx 3AM if she wakes and then no earlier than 6AM. So, depending on how you count it, can that be considered only 1 night-time feeding? I'm confused.

The nurse also said that usually, babies have to hit around 16-17lbs before they STTN but of course as we know there are exceptions. Sounds like you were super lucky with Cassidy!

I get what you mean about snacking. I'm going to try to talk to our doctor directly and just bypass the nurse.

Kristen78

12-11-2005, 05:08 PM

I need help!

I have the Weisbluth book but haven't gotten to read it all. My 6 week old daughter is cosleeping with us. I would like to get her into her own room and crib. But I don't know how to do it. At the same time I would like to start following Weisbluth's advice and getting her to bed earlier. But right now she doesn't go to sleep until about 11pm. I don't know how to move it to an earlier time. I tried last night to put her to bed between 8-9 and she woke up after nursing and just starting wailing. And I put her to sleep in my bed. So it wasn't like she had to deal with the crib too.

My baby sleeps ALOT. Sometimes pretty much all day and then she will wake up around 5 or 6 and be up for a few hours. Do I need to restrict her napping? I dont think so, but my husband thinks that her napping so much during the day is a problem.

I *could* try CIO but I don't know about doing it to her when she is so young. What alternatives should I be doing until she is old enough to try CIO?

I want to add that once my daughter goes to sleep for the night she sleeps pretty well. She will be up 2-3 times for a quick 15 minute or less nursing session. She never cries in the middle of the night, just grunts & groans, and I roll over and feed her and she's right back to sleep.

I go back to work Feb 1st so I would like to get her in her own crib by then.

What sleep cues should I be looking for in a baby so young? I think maybe she gets fussy at night from being overtired. Maybe if I let her sleep or got her to sleep earlier in the night it would do away with the late night before-bed fussiness?

Thanks!

majorgal

12-11-2005, 08:21 PM

Caitlin: I really don't think you should try CIO at this age. At only 6 weeks, it just won't work....they can't learn anything from it at that point, and the result will only be tears for you and the baby at this point. I would not suggest trying CIO until 6 months or so, if that is a strategy you want to try.

As for going to sleep earlier, I just don't think there are too many things you can do this early. Many, many babies at that age just naturally stay up that long. 10 or 11 for a bedtime for an infant is not unusual. Tiring for mom and dad, though. My DS was up until about 10 most nights until he hit about 10 weeks. At that point we were able to get him down at 8, then at 12 weeks, 7:00. He still woke twice a night until 6 months, but, it was AMAZING to finally be able to have the 7:00 - 11:00 chunk of time back again.

What I will say is as soon as you can, just establish a bedtime routine. We did the book, bath, change into sleeper, nurse, sleep thing pretty early on and DS began to understand pretty quickly that it was time for night sleep.

I don't have experience transitioning a baby from co-sleeping to a crib, though. DS was able to sleep in his crib after about 3 1/2 weeks. But, he often when he woke in the 3-4:00 hour, I would bring him into bed so we could both sleep a bit better. When DS hit 6 months, we did use CIO (it was very quick for us, and caused minimal pain) because he was still getting up twice, and at 23 pounds, I knew he didn't need to eat, and I was starting to lose it with exhaustion.

Good luck, and, like I say, I think you will find that DD will naturally find an earlier bedtime soon.

DianeCourt

12-12-2005, 07:31 AM

Does anybody worry if their baby is getting enough to eat with these extended sleep stretches? We're formula feeding exclusively. Right now DD has 6 feedings, mostly parent led every 3 - 4 hours. Rarely does she cry or fuss because she's hungry. Last night she slept 8 hours, which is great considering she'll be 7 weeks old tomorrow, but now I wonder how she's going to get all six feedings in today with a "shorter" day. She won't take more than 5 ounces in a feeding, so giving her more each time right now won't work. I'm worried about just dropping a feeding since she weight gain issues in the beginning due to BFing problems.

gmooter

12-12-2005, 07:47 AM

My DD is 3 1/2 months old and just dropped all night feedings. She goes to bed a 8pm and is up at 7am. She just made up for the missed feedings during the day right now here's what she eats:

7am 6oz
11am 6oz
3pm 5-6oz
5pm 5oz
7pm 5oz

These are just aveages. She's probably 12-13lbs (was 11lbs 9oz 3 weeks ago) and eats between 26-28oz per day!

cc8

12-12-2005, 10:32 AM

Wow Gretchen - no night feedings for Grace! That is fantastic.

LexyLou

12-12-2005, 11:54 AM

Hey guys,

At what age does the 2 hour window start to lengthen? DD is 11 weeks old right now and she's only been able to stay awake about 1 1/2 hours at a time this week because she's catching up on all the sleep she missed during her colicy period...she also has been sleeping at night from 7:30/8pm-3 am and then again from 3:15 to 7 am...it's been great.

I'm just curious when she'll start doing the morning nap and then an afternoon nap and have more like 3-4 hours in between sleeping? Is there an average?

ETA: I try to keep her up for the 9 am nap but this morning by 8:40 she was done.

LeslieR

12-12-2005, 12:34 PM

LexyLou, I'm sortive curious about this, too, because DS is 4mos and he still needs to nap every 2 hours. If not, he's a total bear and I pay for it at night BIG TIME.

I've noticed his feedings coincide with his naps. He acts hungry and tired at the same time, so I take him upstairs, swaddle him, nurse until he falls asleep, and then put him in his crib. Last week was the first week he started naps in his crib and they were so short and pitiful. But, the past 3 or 4 days they have been an hour at least (mostly longer). And coincidentally (or not?) his night sleep has improved greatly as well. Last night he slept from 7:30-4:40am. My guess is that he is sleeping better at night because of the better naps during the day.

I just don't know what I'm going to do when he is too big to be swaddled anymore.:( I swear, if I don't swaddle him, his eyes pop open THE SECOND his head hits the mattress.

curlywig

12-12-2005, 12:47 PM

LexyLou and LeslieR:

FWIW, DS has JUST graduated to almost 3 hours of wakefulness (and that's a stretch). He is almost 8 mos old. I finally figured that I'd not worry about what he "should" be doing. He was telling me he was tired by 2 hours, so I'd let him nap. I started to find that his naps were getting really short when he was awake for 2 hours. I started to stretch his wakefulness, and naps have gotten a bit better. He still reverts to 2 hours when he's sick or not feeling well though.

HTH!

Megande

12-12-2005, 12:48 PM

LexyLou-The window starts to lengthen at around 4 months. Before this time, the most important thing you can do is not let them get overtired, so I wouldn't worry about trying to keep her up until 9 right now. The morning nap evolves first, that got pretty consistent for us at right around 4 months. Between 4 and 5 months, we often couldn't make it all the way to noon for the afternoon nap. We didn't get into a predictable, Weissbluth nap pattern until probably around 5 months. It is great, now, though, because I can finally plan activities!! At 5.5 months, napping looks like this for us:

Wake up: 7:00 to 7:30
Morning nap: Starts between 9 and 9:30 and lasts for about 45 minutes
Afternoon nap: Starts at around 12:30 and lasts 1.5 hours to 2 hours
Late afternoon nap: Sometimes he will take one around 4, other times he won't. Usually lasts 45 minutes.
Bedtime: around 7 pm

So some days he will be awake for around 4 hours in the late afternoon.

Leslie-I know you didn't ask about this specifically, but Dean *needed* to be swaddled to sleep. I had a lot of success by weaning it from naps first. I started swaddling with one arm out. When he got used to that, I "swaddled" with both arms out. Then we cut out swaddling for naps altogether. After a week or so of successful unswaddled naps, we moved to no swaddling for bedtime.

Cosmogirl

12-12-2005, 01:20 PM

ok, needing help time.
Things were going AWESOME for a little while here. DS had a great schedule. Early bedtime, regular naps...super. But since a while, I seem to have lost control over the nap time. It is hell. Whatever I do, I never catch the drowsy window. So he always ends up crying before he falls asleep. I HATE to leave him cry like that, but I know he needs to sleep. SOmething must be wrong, because before it wasn't hard like that to put him down for a nap. SO I must be missing something.

He usually go to bed at 6:30. He sleeps 12 hours. That is great. The bedtime routine, and bedtime are perfect. NO problem there. His wake up time isn't regular yet. From 6-7:30. When he wakes up at 6, I usually feed him, and put him back to bed, because otherwise, we are not able to make it for the 9 am nap. He giggles for 15 mintues in his bed, and then falls asleep for maybe 45 mintues to an hour. SO he is up for the day from 7:30-8. Until then, it is perfect. Now comes the nap part of the day, this is a little bit more challenging.

9 am comes. I check for sleepy clues, but he doesn't show much. So usually, I feed him around 9, rock him, and sing a little, and then off to bed. Usually the 9 am nap isn't so bad, but this morning, he fell asleep crying.:( He is usually down by 9:30.
He usually sleeps only an hour at that nap. Then he wakes up. Usually around 10:30. I feed him, we play, and then, I start checking really closely for cues. Again, he doesn't give me any. So that makes it really hard. I've tried going by the clock, putting him to bed after 1:15 1:30 1:45 hour of wakefulness, but nope. I feed himeverytime. Sometimes he even falls asleep on the breast, but he suddenly wakes up, and then he isn't drwosy anymore. Even if I try to rock him longer or whatever, I never am able to put him in his bed drowsy but awake, he always manage to be fully awake when he touches his bed.
He coos, and giggles and stuff for a little while, and then these things turns into bloody murder cries, and eventually he'll fall asleep.
It is like that for the 2nd and 3rd nap of the day. I get so frustrated to hear him cry like that everytime he goes down for a nap.

Am I doing something wrong? I'm trying not to go when he cries like that but I HATE to hear him screaming like that 3 times a day. I know how naps are super importnat, and he is able to sooth himslef to sleep, but why does he need to cry like that all the time, why don't he show some sleepy cues? DO I put him to bed to early?
I really need help ladies, I can't stand to hear my DS cry like that, it is breaking my heart!
TIA:(

ETA: I forgot to mention that DS is 4 1/2 month old.
He just fell asleep after crying like crazy for like 10 minutes. Breaks my heart! Please, help!

newyorkgirl

12-12-2005, 02:21 PM

cosmogirl, no real help here, but I totally sympathize. Bennett went through a stretch like that where I just couldn't manage to put him to sleep without him fussing and/or crying himself down. I kept thinking, well, maybe it's bedtime, so I would move his bedtime earlier just a little bit. Either that worked - I think it might have helped a little bit - or, as one of the moms in my playgroup said to me, it may just be that in the 4-6 month period, while they're consolidating their sleep, they'll go back and forth a little until they settle down in their schedule. After a week or so of that, Bennett went back to easy naps.

jki

12-12-2005, 02:27 PM

cosmogirl:
Sometimes he even falls asleep on the breast, but he suddenly wakes up, and then he isn't drwosy anymore.
When they fall asleep, even for a MINUTE, and then wake up - they sometimes think they've already napped for that time period. That is why it is so important to avoid the car when it gets close to naptime.... if they fall asleep in the car and wake up when the car stops, that nap is ruined. Also, could you try feeding him right when he wakes up and avoid feeding him right before naps? Either that, or start nursing well before the time where he would fall asleep at the breast.... that would be my suggestion unless you are really a proponent of nursing to sleep.

Have you tried waiting 2 hours between naps? 2:15? Maybe he is not tired yet when you are putting him down. What do you do in between naps? Is it possible for you to expose him to sunlight and fresh air?

If he wakes up at 6am, have you tried just letting him be UP for the day and putting him down for the first nap at 8? With DD, I just follow the 2 hour wakefulness rule - not 9am/1pm naps. It seems to me if he is sleeping 12-13 hours at night, he does not need that first cat nap and maybe that is what is throwing the schedule off?

After putting him in his crib, have you tried patting him, shushing him or whatever to try to get him to be a bit drowsier?

That's all the ideas I have for now. Just throwing ideas out there - my kids have never done this so I don't know exactly what is going on!

LexyLou: I guess every child is different but DS could only stay up for 2 hours for the longest time - like maybe even 12 months. He was really active and once he started crawling and walking, he tired REALLY easily. The first nap was always 2 - 2.5 hours after he woke up. He really never stayed up for more than 4 hours at ANY time until 16 months.

DianeCourt: As your baby gets older/bigger, her stomach capacity will also increase and she will increase her intake.... Are you monitoring how much formula she is taking? As long as she is taking 2 - 2.5 oz for every pound of body weight, I personally would not worry about getting enough to eat and longer sleep stretches, but I think you should probably discuss with your pediatrician to make sure if you are concerned.

maren

12-12-2005, 02:29 PM

Hey Val,

I'm thinking you might be putting him down too early. DD is the same age, and she's definitely starting to go a little longer then 2 hours b/w naps sometimes. When I try to put her down too early, she behaves exactly as you've described. I used to pay A LOT of attention to the 2 hour window but, b/c we had so many tears for a while, I really wait until I see drowsy signs - unless we're coming up 2.5 or 3 hours - then she goes down no matter what. You could try letting him go a little longer b/w naps for a couple days and see if it makes a difference. A day or two shouldn't mess with his schedule too badly.

Sebski

12-12-2005, 03:50 PM

I have a question... we're nowhere's near ready to sleep train - DS's only 5w - but how long is too long for a nap? Right now he's been napping for 2.5 hours... is there such a thing as too long for a nap?

LeslieR

12-12-2005, 04:47 PM

Sebski, I subscribe to the never wake a sleeping baby theory. Weissbluth talks about this in his book. It's kind of confusing because he stands by this theory, but at other times he talks about waking the baby. Chances are he needs the sleep, so consider it a blessing and a chance to catch up on your sleep or get some stuff done around the house.:)

Cosmogirl

12-12-2005, 05:46 PM

First of all, I was to say THANK YOU SO MUCH ladies for the help!

NewyorkgirlThanks for the sympathy! I really hope this situation will resolve soon, because gosh it is hard on me! I can see that recently, his patterns are chaging often, even more then I can adapt sometimes, so maybe that is an explaination for what is going on. Crossing finger that it is a temporary thing!

jki
When they fall asleep, even for a MINUTE, and then wake up - they sometimes think they've already napped for that time period.
that is an interesting fact! Maybe that could be an explaination to what he does. I'm not a strong advocate of bf to sleep, but the thing is nowadays when he wakes up, he is too happy to nurse properly. He eats just enough to not feel too hungry, and then, he want to play and laugh...then, later onafter the exctiement of being with me wears off, he feels hungry again, and so I have to feed him again. Maybe I'll try to feed him less closer to his bedtime (the second time) that could help...
I think I'll try to wait longer. That is what I though maybe not long enough of a stretch. But what bothers me is that his naps are shortening...I thought he was getting overtired, but then I read Curlywig's post, and thought about his wakeful period not being long enough...

the nap in the morning, I started doing it because when I get him up for the day at this hour, he is always still drowsy. I sit him in his chair, and he fixes thing, and he isn't there completely...SO that is why I started putting him back down when he wakes early. I'll try the longer stretch period, and if it doesn't work, I'll try to remove this nap. I don't want to change too many things all at the same time you know?

And honnestly, I'm NOT ABLE to get this kid drowsy. He doesn,t enjoy being hold too much, he doesn't like when I rock him, so that kinda leaves less possibilities. But if I put him down too soon, maybe that is why I can't get him there....
Thanks for your help, I really appreciated it!!!!

MarenThanks for that. I think that is what I'll start by triyng. And as you say, for a couple of days, I don't think it will mess everything up, if it gets messed up... Crossing finger that it is the explaination! Thanks!!!

SebskiWhen DS was younger, and napping better....he would nap sometimes 3 hours at a time. As long as his longest stretch of sleep is at night, no problem. Otherwise, he could get mixed up with night and days. But as Lesliesaid, enjoy those time to rest or do something you want!

jki

12-12-2005, 09:38 PM

cosmogirl:
Another thought - when their naps start getting shorter, it's also a possible sign that they are ready to drop a nap. Is DS taking 3 naps pretty consistently? Maybe he is ready to go down to 2?

Have you tried soothing him back to sleep if he wakes up before 7am? If he wakes up and is not hungry (or not hungry enough to eat a decent meal!), could you wait to feed him?

Oh I agree - I would just change one thing at a time for one week at a time to try to figure out which changes are effective!!

As far as getting him drowsy - does he like the swing? I used to put DD in the swing to get her drowsy and hustle her to the crib before she fell asleep!

Good luck!

Sebski:
IMO, there is no such thing as a nap that's too long unless your DC has a weight problem. Weissbluth talks about waking babies up only in order to protect their sleep schedules!

Cosmogirl

12-13-2005, 07:14 AM

jkiWhen he wakes at 6, he is hungry like a crazy boy! I wouldn't be able to soothe him back to sleep without feeding him first. He emtpies one breast (and it has been filling up since the night before 6pm, so there is about 8-9 oz in there...) and sometimes is starts on the other one. So I wouldn't be able to do that. But if I get him up, I would NEVER be able to get him up for like 2 hours; he is so no there yet KWIM? Like when you wake up to go to work. You are up, happy, but still sleepyhead. So I'd have to get him back in bed by 7 at the top, and then I'd seriously miss the 9 am window...But as I see it, I'll no matter what I'll miss the 9 am window... unless I find a way to make him sleep in the morning until 7, and I don't see how I could do that...

Sebski

12-13-2005, 09:58 AM

Ok I'm back with another question. I said in my last post that we're not attempting to sleep train, but I am starting to look for sleepy cues and learn more about mannerisms when it comes to sleep/getting tired. He's a BEAR every night between 9pm and 11pm. We finally wrestle him down to sleep by about 11pm after he cries for a couple of hours on end. So, last night he woke up from his nap at 5:30pm and we played etc. until about 7pm. I fed him and he was sleepy but just would not go to sleep! Every time I tried to put him down he would scream... until about 11pm. Should I keep doing what I did last night even though it didn't seem to work? Or, should I just wait until he's older before establishing a nightime routine? :confused:

majorgal

12-13-2005, 10:13 AM

Sebski: It is never too early to start a night routine, but at five weeks, I don't think the extended crying will be effective. I think you are doing the right thing to be following sleep cues, but at five weeks, most babies are not sleeping their 'night sleep' until at least 9 (from what I have read, and from experience). I remember that it was nearly impossible to get DS down to sleep before 10:00 until he was about 8 weeks. We kept trying, but if he cried for more than five minutes we went to him. At that age, they are crying because they need something--if only attention and comfort.

Sleep training can wait...trust me.

I dreaded the 8:00 - 10:00 period of time because I was exhausted and just wanted to be able to put DS down. But, from weeks 5-8 we walked circles around the first floor, usually with DS in the Baby Bjorn. He would often fall asleep, but as soon as I took him out he would scream bloody murder. So, I left him in there, and ate my meals standing and swaying.

Like I said, every night we tried, and eventually it took.

Even that early, though, we did have a night routine--bath, sleeper, book, nurse, put down. He just wouldn't take it until he was older. Still, the routine was effective later on.

So, I think that what you are experiencing is pretty normal. All I can say is that it gets better...

Sebski

12-13-2005, 12:09 PM

Thank you Kim! We don't let him cry alone for those night hours that he's fussy... we walk him etc. He's too young to cry alone in my opinion. I'm going to keep up the night routine of waking from nap, playing, changing and nursing. Hopefully in a few weeks we'll start seeing the benefits of it. I'm not in any rush, although it would be nice to have more than 2.5/3hrs of sleep in a stretch at night. Everyone tells you, while pregnant, to enjoy your sleep while you can... I was foolish and thought - eh, it won't be that bad. HA! :o

Cosmogirl

12-13-2005, 12:25 PM

SebskiI just wanted to say that I agree that he is too young to be slept train...but it is never too early for a routine. Babies love what comes next. It is calming for them to know what to anticipate. So I think it is ok that you start a routine now. It won't be perfect, you won't be able to follow it everynight, it will change over time, but at least, your baby will know what to anticipate. We started a routine a long time ago with DS. It has changed a lot over time, but one thing that has never changed is bathtime. Now DS knows that when bathtime comes and then a feeding, bedtime is next. This hasn't changed. For us, it def. payed in the long run.
Good luck!

LeslieR

12-13-2005, 02:57 PM

Okay, I think I spoke too soon about Luke's naps in the crib being longer. Today he had 1 good nap in the morning (90 minutes or so) and 3 other naps since that were all either a half hour or less.:mad: What do you guys do when your baby has a short nap like that? Do you try to put them to sleep again? Give up on the nap? Put them down earlier for the next nap? I just got him down upstairs and he is awake already. Bedtime is at 7, so I think it's pointless to try for another nap now. grrrrr.

TIA!

ETA: Yesterday I read somewhere about no naps after 4. Does anyone subscribe to this theory? If so, why does this work?

LexyLou

12-13-2005, 03:46 PM

Leslie-Sometimes DD starts to cry around 30 minutes often. I've heard that's about the time they move from REM to deep sleep and it often wakes them. I usually leave her alone for up to 10 minutes as long as the crying isn't hysterical and let her fall back asleep. I'm so glad I do that because I used to get her up and she would be grumpy. Usually she'll fall back asleep for at least another 45 min-1 1/2 and she gets a much better nap. If you are comfortable letting him cry for a tiny bit, you should try that.

Also, before I pick her up I'll try to rub her and soothe her while she's still in her crib for a couple of minutes before totally giving up.

cc8

12-13-2005, 04:44 PM

Leslie, we follow the same protocol that Lex does. The back/tummy rubs really help.

As far as the super late afternoon nap, DD has taken a nap that starts at 4pm in the past. I don't have her on a strict clock. If she's sleepy and it happens to be 4pm or 5pm or whatever, I have her go down for a nap. Reason we can't do real schedules: she naps & wakes up at different times each day. I watch for sleepy cues.

Another thing we've been doing that has been helpful for us is that we do let her cry for a bit in her crib. She usually falls asleep after 10 minutes (assuming we've watched for sleepy cues and put her down when she is sleepy). Before, I was trying to rock her to sleep and that would just agitate her more and massively delay her sleep.

LeslieR

12-13-2005, 04:52 PM

Thanks for the replies, girls. Yeah, the whole wait ten minutes idea doesn't work on him. He just lays in his crib and yells-not crying, actual yelling! And the soothing pat/rub and shushing don't work either.:rolleyes: Once he's awake, the only thing that seems to put him back to sleep is nursing.:rolleyes:

Cosmogirl

12-13-2005, 04:56 PM

Leslie When the duration of the nap isn't enough for my taste ;) I leave him there. Most of the time, he falls back asleep when he is up after 30 minutes. I go only if hysterical, but I know that sometimes he "needs" to have a good cry for like 2 mintues, and then he falls asleep as fast as he woke up, like if nothing happened. If he doesn't fall asleep , I still leave him there so that he understands that I won't go to him sooner, even if he wakes up sooner. Pretty much what W. said you know, don't go to your baby before 6 am so that he won't have the idea to wake sooner to enjoy your compagnie...I apply this rule to the naps. It is unusual that he will sleep less then an hour now.

No naps after 4 pm, that rule is to protect the early bedtime. If you nap DS after 4, chances are that you will ruin his bedtime, because he won't be sleepy yet. I am really strict with this rule because I messed up William's bedtime a couple of time, and so I understood. Today, he woke up from his last nap at 2:30. I tried to put him down at 4, left him in his bed for 30 mintues, and he would not fall asleep. I went and picked him up to protect his bedtime. He fell asleep like a rock at 6. When he does this, I always make the bedtime earlier so that he doesn't get overtired. Normally bedtime is at 6:30, so I went 1/2 hour sooner. It work great here!

And I do think it is a good idea to make the next nap sooner when he doesn't take a good nap. This way he won't get overtired.
Anything less then 45 minutes shouldn't be considered as a nap according to W.
Good luck Leslie!

LeslieR

12-13-2005, 06:56 PM

Val, thanks! That helps a lot. I wouldn't say I wait until he is hysterical because this kid rarely cries, but I do wait until I can tell he is not going to go back to sleep. I know he's tired-it doesn't make any sense why he won't sleep longer than 30 minutes or so!

About the no naps after 4pm, he usually desperately needs a nap between then and 7pm. I can still get him to sleep at 7. Sometimes it takes longer than other nights, though. Tonight I got him to sleep by 8 and he just woke up a little while ago and would not go back to sleep until Sal just went up there and rocked him back to sleep. Yesterday I got him to bed by 8 and he woke up at 10. Do you think this is because of him taking naps after 4?

Megande

12-13-2005, 07:19 PM

Leslie-I don't know what W. says about kids of all ages (I only read the sections that pertain to the age DS is), but he says that some percentage of kids that are between 4 months and a 9 months (I think that is the age range) need a third nap that starts between 3 and 5 pm. So he definitely isn't against all naps after 4. He says that the nap will usually be short. Today DS went down at 4:30, slept for 45 minutes, and was ready for his normal bedtime at 7. If he wakes up from his afternoon nap before 2, I usually try for the late afternoon nap. It doesn't seem to affect his bedtime, and he gets way too tired if we skip it every day. I think it depends on the baby.

tinkerbell2005

12-13-2005, 09:11 PM

I threw out my Weisbluth book in a fit of sleep-deprived rage and now I need advice.

When does he say the 2nd nap is dropped? I've got a 9 month old napping at about 9/9:30 for 1-2 hours and then trying to get her to go down again at 2/2:30. Is this realistic?

emschwar

12-13-2005, 09:16 PM

The 2nd nap is dropped usually between 13 and 16 months, I think.

You might need to put her down for the 2nd nap earlier. When Noah was 9 months, the 1-2 hour window (I think we were at ~1.5 hours then) was key.

Cosmogirl

12-14-2005, 07:02 AM

Leslie It could be. When I put William down for the 4 pm nap and see that he won't sleep, at 4:45 tops, I go and pick him up. Because otherwise, he is do falls asleep, he will mess his bedtime. (i.e. the bedtime will be too late)
Have you tried to get the bedtime sooner??? Maybe you could drop the last nap, ( the one he needs between 4 and 7) but try for an earlier bedtime? like maybe 6 for a little while?
Looks to me he could have also woke up because he didn't nap properly. But I see this as a viscious circle. You don't sleep enough at night, you don't nap well, but if you don't nap well you don't sleep enough at night...Maybe if he would sleep longer at night, the naps would be easier.
About the 30 mintues naps, one last thing. SOmetimes I went and picked up William cause I really thought he wasn't going to sleep again. And then I got in his room, and realised that he was still tired. Either I got out (litterally running!) and left him there for him to fall asleep, or at first, I did everything I could to make him fall asleep again. My point was that if he is more rested, he'll be able next time to refall asleep on his own. If he is still tired, I'd do anything to make him sleep more instead of getting him up. nurse, paci name it.

MegandeW. is absolutely for naps after 4 for some kids. But he was saying that if the kids falls asleep before 4:30 ok, but if he is still sleeping, or falls asleep at 5, not to wake him up because it could become bedtime and he could maybe get through the night. I realise that maybe I didn't worded right what I wanted to say.

Cosmogirl

12-14-2005, 07:11 AM

Ok, now I have a question of my own...

I really don't get it! YEsterday I tried all your suggestions ladies.Here is what happened:
He woke up at 6. I fed him, and got him back to bed because I didn't want to change everything all at the same time. He woke up at 7:45. He played and started fussing at 9:15. I fed him, and he was looking like he might have fell asleep on the breast. SO I sang a few lullybies, and he went to bed. Forget it, I guess he wasn't ready. I picked him up again after 15 minutes of cries, and we plyed until 9:45. Then, I went back to the room, did the nap time routine, and put him to bed. 2:15 of wakefullness. He fell asleep after maybe 5 mintues of fussing. OK, I can take that.
He woke up at 11:15. Put him back down at 1:15. 2 hours of wakefulness. Again, maybe 5 minutes of fussing, and back down.
He woke up at 2:15. Tried for a short nap at 4:15, but didn,t want to fall asleep, so I 4:45, I pick him up. Fell alseep quickly at 6:15 for bedtime.

I was concerned that he had only napped like 2-3 hour total yesterday. I was wondering how this would affect his sleeping. Well, he woke up at 5:00am. SO I guess it kinda backfired on me. I went in, feed him, he was STARVING, and I put him back to bed. He slept until 7:45. Got him up. He started fussing at 8:45. I fed him, and he started rubbing his eye. I decided to try to put him to bed, he feel asleep after a few coos...WTF??? It is now 9, and he is alseep, after 1 hours of being awake.

Now, I really don,t get it. Obviously, yesterday was too much for him. So now I don,t know what to do...SHould I try to remove the very ealry morning nap, or just keep on going for a week to see how thing will develop???
Any ideas?
TIA!!!