Attorney Support Thread

[lawyerlee]

I hope some other attorneys have come over from the WC and will be interested in participating in this thread.

Boy, do I need to vent! I work for the Kansas Legislature, and we're in a Special Session right now. I've been working for a week straight, and we're making very little progress. My husband has been frustrating the hell out of me. I feel like I have to ask him to do all these extra things, like make dinner tonight, and I wish (as unrealistic as it may be) that he would just do them on his own! It's like he doesn't even consider what it is like for me to spend 15 hours a day, 7 days a week at work. Um, hello! It wears on you, you know?!

Anyway, thanks for listening. :)

[granada]

Oh, sorry to hear about the crazy hours! How long does the special session last? And, bad, bad hubby for not helping out and being sympathetic. :mad: Sometimes they just don't think!

I was just thinking about starting this thread, so I'm glad you did. :) It seemed like there were a few attorneys over on the WC, so hopefully they make their way over here.

Me: I just graduated from law school last May and passed the Bar in November, yay. I'm currently clerking for a judge, but my clerkship ends soon, so I have to figure out what I'm going to do next. I don't want to be a litigator, but it seems those are the only jobs out there! I would love to continue working for the courts, any court. My co-clerk is going to be working for a state court of appeal as a permanent research attorney, and I'm totally jealous. So, we shall see what will become of me...

[lawyerlee]

How long does the special session last?

The Supreme Court told them to have a school finance fix for the Constitutional problem by July 1, but most of the House seems to want to tell the Court to stick it where the sun doesn't shine. ;)

Of course, with the Independence Day holiday coming up next weekend, I'm sure they'll finish by next Friday. :rolleyes:

I hope your job hunt works out. I know how hard it can be to want something different than the typical legal position. But they truly are out there. I hope you'll be able to find the right fit! :)

[Aimee]

Hi - just joining in. Not a lawyer *yet* I graduated from LSU in May and am (supposed to be) studying for the Louisiana Bar in July.

No job lined up yet. I can continue at my current clerkship, which is with an aviation and maritime plantiff's firm, which consists of one attorney, who lives in VA and only flies in once a month or so. So, I can work from home a lot of the time if I want to.

I'm hoping to get into government. I'd like a piece of Club Fed. Sure, 200K a year would be nice, but I'm not cut out for BigLaw. I just don't like this stuff that much.

Wish me luck - prayers to Jesus, Mohammad, Buddah...hell, even Xenu are much appreciated right now!

[kris97]

Another lawyer here!

lwayerlee I'm sorry this weekend was so annoying for you. I hope that you were able to stay home Sunday? Those kind of hours are just brutal....

umwheeCongrats on the clerkship - isn't it just the most amazing experience? I clerked for a fed judge in Manhattan, and would give everything to be his permanent clerk. Problem is, he's so great that every former clerk would battle for that job if he ever went to a permanent clerk system.

I'm usually pretty discreet about this, but I work at one of the -----. It's just about as close to clerking as you can get, in terms of the variety of cases. I highly recommend it if you don't mind dealing with tons of annoying pro ses. :)

[/B]Aimee[B] Good luck! Studying for and taking the bar is so not fun. But you will totally pass, if only to never repeat the experience again. :) If you have any questions about government, please feel free to ask. I've worked for state and federal offices, and have had more background checks than any one person should go through.

Glad to find this thread!

[lawyerlee]

Another lawyer here!

lawyerlee I'm sorry this weekend was so annoying for you. I hope that you were able to stay home Sunday? Those kind of hours are just brutal....

Unfortunately, the House is working today, so we are, too. :( We did get the morning off, though. :rolleyes:

[RobynScott]

Hi all! I'm coming over from WC as well -I think this new board is great. My name is/was RobynScott over there as well - but I don't have the time to post too much.

Lawyerlee - I thought it was only private practice attorneys that worked weekends - sorry about that - but thankfully it seems like there is an end in sight!

Hi also to umwhee, kris97 and aimee !

I'm a 4th year associate (egads - when did that happen!) at a medium-large firm in Philadelphia - lots of changes afoot in my group which you may se eme posting about in the next few weeks.

Hope everyone had a good weekend (sorry lwyerlee!) - and a good week! (but - why does tomorrow have to be Monday? :rolleyes: - oh well - have a good one!

[Esq.]

Hi all! I am a first year associate at a small firm. Our bread and butter is commercial litigation, but we do pretty much anything.

Today, I have to work on a complaint we are drafting for a person who is appearing pro se in Tx. (Weird I know) I have to break to my boss that there is no federal question jurisdiction, as there is no state action. I started pleading it for diversity jurisdiction, and on my way out the door on Friday, he mentioned that he thought it was a fed question. I assume this meansthat he wants it pleads under the 14th A, as it is a discimination case. I didn't feel like dealing with explaining it to him then, I don't think he will agree, and he will likely make me plead it his way.

You can't sue the EEOC, can you? Do they have immunity? I would think that they do.

Anyone in TX and know the state's civil rights/anti discrimination law? I would rather plead the complaint under that than under the 14th A (like my boss wants to...which makes no sense, bc as I said, there is no state action unless you count the EEOC denying his claim, and that will only work if the EEOC is sue-able...which I don't think it is).

Enough rambling for now :)

[kris97]

Kyrsten Off the top of my head, it depends on what he's suing for and what his cause of action is. The EEOC is a federal agency, so the 14th amendment wouldn't apply (the 5th usually does). Also, you can't sue the federal govt absent a specific waiver of sovereign immunity. He can sue an individual federal employee for constitutional violations in a Bivens action, and he can challenge an agency decision under the Administrative Procedure Act, but generally you can't sue a federal agency for money damages based on alleged constitutional violations. If he's suing for employment discrimination, then that has to be under Title VII; and if he's suing for a tort injury, that has to be under the Federal Tort Claims Act.

Hope that's helpful. :)

[Esq.]

If I sue under Title VII, don't I sue the employer, not the EEOC? Then that would be federal question jur, bc of Title VII...didn't think of that...brain fart. Is that right?

I think that it would be the 14th A through the vehicle of the 5th (making it applicable to the federal gov't as well as the states), wouldn't it? The 5th A is "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous, crime..."

I am sure the EEOC didn't waive immunity. Why would it? It would get sued like this all the time if it did...

[kris97]

Kyrsten Yes, generally, you sue the employer (I thought maybe he was employed by the EEOC) in a Title VII case. Any lawsuit you would bring against the EEOC would likely be a federal question case because it is a federal agency - I know there is a provision in the FRCP for cases brought agains the United States.

I'm pretty sure that it would just be the 5th Amendment - the 14th applies the Bill of Rights to the states. In effect, though, due process and equal protection rights under the 5th and the 14th are identical, so the analysis will be the same any way.

Good luck!

[Esq.]

Thanks!

Right now I am proceeding to draft the complaint against the employer under Title VII. I am hoping I get a call back from an atty in Tx who can possibly tell me if the state has enacted a Civil rights act. I don't want to spend money on a search ;)


This is my train of thought on the 14thA/5thA issue:
My understanding is that there is no Amendment to the Constitution that contains an equal protection clause intended to be applied to the federl gov't. The 14th A applies to the states. The 5th A does not contain any launguage of equal protection, but speaks of due process, double jeopardy, self incrimination...mostly criminal issues. I am looking for something that speaks to discimrimination based on national origin and religion.

The S CT, in the companion case to Brown (sorry, can't think of the name right now), used the 5th A to import the protections of the 14th A and make them applicable to the fed gov't, just as they had used teh 14th A to export the bill of rights to the states.

[kris97]

Hmmm, I haven't read that case, but my quick westlaw search just showed cases saying "14th Am doesn't apply to the states" (I think the principles do, just through the 5th). One thing, though - what is the substance of his claim? Because under either Amendment a constitutional claim can not be brought against a federal entity unless it's a Bivens or APA type action. Also, Title VII preempts constitutional claims based on the same conduct.

(sorry if the conversation is too lawyer-egghead for other members. but it has been fun to actually use some of what I do in real life)

[lawyerlee]

Kyrsten Off the top of my head, it depends on what he's suing for and what his cause of action is. The EEOC is a federal agency, so the 14th amendment wouldn't apply (the 5th usually does). Also, you can't sue the federal govt absent a specific waiver of sovereign immunity. He can sue an individual federal employee for constitutional violations in a Bivens action, and he can challenge an agency decision under the Administrative Procedure Act, but generally you can't sue a federal agency for money damages based on alleged constitutional violations. If he's suing for employment discrimination, then that has to be under Title VII; and if he's suing for a tort injury, that has to be under the Federal Tort Claims Act.

Hope that's helpful. :)
Agreed. :)

[Esq.]

The 14th A does apply to the states. The language is: "nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law; not deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

The 14th A wasn't written in language that made the equal protection clause applicable to the fed. gov't. SO, the 5th A was used to import the equal protection clause to the fed gov't.

I will try to find the case...

And, my apologies as well, but I love to talk con law :)

[lawyerlee]

But didn't you say you were trying to sue the EEOC?

[Esq.]

No, I was thinking that maybe that was how my boss was getting to the federal question jurisdiction.

I wasn't thinking about pleading the complaint under Title VII, I was thinking about 14thA, and there was no state action...so I was uncertain why he thought that there was federal question jur.

I didn't sleep last night...I am not making any sense.

ETA: the claim is for employment discrimination based on religion, against a private employer in Tx. The Plaintiff wasfor not promoted bc he observes the Sabbath, and cannot work a full day on Fridays. He has worked for the company for 33 years, and has not had a pay increase in 14.

[lawyerlee]

There is a federal question if you sue under Title VII. And, like Kris said, you would sue under that, not the Constitution, if you can.

[Esq.]

Right, I just hadn't thought about it being under title vii. Boss handed it to me at 4:30 on Friday...I left around 5. I was thinking about it this weekend...I knew that he understood it to be fed question jur, but he never told me to plead it under title vii...he just handed me stuff to read. when I read it, I thought of the 14th A...(too fresh out of school I suppose) and not title vii. There is no state action, so I can't plead under the 14th A. When kris mentioned title vii, I though DUH! Brain fart! That solved the problem there.

But we had started talking about applications of the 14th A...and that was the conversation I thought I was having...

but who knows...I am brain dead today.

[lawyerlee]

When kris mentioned title vii, I though DUH! Brain fart! That solved the problem there.
Ah, ok. Cool. :)

[Sherb]

Wanted to add my name to the list of attorneys. I am a Domestic Violence attorney - my job is funded by a Violence Against Women Act grant. I handle any kind of civil matter for a victim of abuse. A rough job but satisfying.

I graduated law school a year ago and took the '04 Alabama Bar.

[granada]

Originally posted by Krysten:
The 14th A does apply to the states. The language is: "nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law; not deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

The 14th A wasn't written in language that made the equal protection clause applicable to the fed. gov't. SO, the 5th A was used to import the equal protection clause to the fed gov't.

I'm coming into the conversation a little late, but I am a fan of Irwin Chemerinsky, so I felt compelled to looked it up. I think Krysten is right. The 14th Amendment applies to the states, and the Bill of Rights applies to the states by way of the due process clause of the 14th Amendment.

Ok, now I will move on to the celebrity gossip thread... :rolleyes: :D

[justcbk]

another lawyer (and clerk) checking in!

robynscott i'm also in philly, good to *see* you!

[pickle]

Me too! I did three + years as a divorce litigation associate before fleeing to legal publishing. But now I'm getting the itch to move on...

I definitely don't want to go back to litigation, so now I 'm trying to figure out "what I'm going to be when I grow up" and still be able to pay back my good friend Sallie Mae!

(Hi cbk!)

[kris97]

welcome to cbk and pickles! it's so funny you mention sallie mae - I was *just* on the website paying the monthly bill and lamenting the fact that I still have 67,000 in loans to pay (and that was with substantial public interest loan repayment assistance!) *sigh*

[mamacita]

Another lawyer here.

I quit my big firm job last month, 6 weeks after having my second baby, when they refused to give me an additional 6 weeks of unpaid leave. Good riddance! Oh, how I *hated* that job. A lot a lot a lot. I was doing primarily commercial lit, but really a bit of everything-- bankruptcy, admin law, blah blah blah. I am not a fan of the big firm life.

On Tuesday, I am starting my new job-- doing contracts work in-house. :cool: Eager to see how it goes. I have high hopes that this will be a much better fit for me.

Goodbye egotistical partners! Goodbye billable requirements! Ahhhh...

[RobynScott]

Mamacita - I'm (mostly) jealous - I'm starting to enjoymy comlit life a little bit (but I'll deny it to the end ;)

Hi pickles and Justcbk, Just cbk - you've got to check in on my Philly post under groups as well - it's lonely over there :) I work in the city and used to live in the city but live in the burbs as of 6 months ago (but not too far out)

I've got some work things going on that I'll probably be posting about for advice on in the next week or two. This site is great for a lot of reasons - one of which being I can get on during the day - woohoo! most 'frivolous' sites are blocked at work so I'm happy to be able to escape on here, hehe.

[Esq.]

so, that is three comm lit attys, right? Or wait...only 2 since mamacita is fleeing our ranks ;)

I don't really mind commercial lit so far. It is my support staff that was upsetting today, not the area of law. How do you all get along with your support staff? I had the best admin in the world...but my boss drove her away with his temper tantrums. Now I am waiting for her replacement, and living on the charity of others in the mean time...which is not working out so well.

[Sherb]

You have a support staff? I would kill for a secretary; Where I work we even have to make our own copies :o

[RobynScott]

Sherb - at least you're doing a good thing :)

Support staff for me - depends on the day. She works for me and a partner (a female) My secretary is only 3 months younger than me (both 28) - and from what I understand, I get a lot more attitude from her than the other attorney.

C'est la vie - some days are better than others!

[Aimee]

My secretary is only 3 months younger than me (both 28) - and from what I understand, I get a lot more attitude from her than the other attorney.



Y'know, I got a lot of attitude from the support staff in the office where I worked last summer. There was one female attorney, who was in her 30s (even though it was her first year out) and all the other females in the office were secretaries. The office manager in particular was really snotty towards me - even though I was nothing but nice to her, and the rest of the support staff. They treated the female attorney quite well, but I got treated like crap.

I figured it came down to the fact that I was 23-24 and they didn't like that I was so young and on the path to being an attorney. I'd get really rude comments from them like "you're so lucky you can afford to work part time" (hello, it's called ABA restrictions on working) and such.

[granada]

kris97 ~ I meant to respond to you, but never did. I would love to work at the US Attorney's office, anything government really. But it seems like those jobs are really hard to get. I've put in my resume with the city attorney's office, DA, AG, you name it. Anyway, lately I've been hearing about some big firms around here hiring, and I'm somewhat tempted to apply just because I'm getting so nervous about not having anything.

P.S. We deal with pro ses here, too. I've worked on several of their motions, so I know what you mean!

Welcome, everyone! :)

[pickle]

At my old firm, my secretary was older than my mom...so you can imagine what she thought of being asked to do things by someone my age! She did get better once she saw that I stuck around for more than one year.

Now support staff is just a dream...I'm on my own. Not really a problem, since my workload is drastically reduced from what it was. ;)

[Sherb]

Hey Aimee! Love your name - I bet you've gotten it spelled all kinds of ways. I know I have. It even took my grandmother 25 years to finally spell it A-i-m-e-e on my Christmas presents.

BTW, did you know anyone on LSU's national team? My DH competed against them at regionals in Knoxville?

[Aimee]

Hey Aimee! Love your name - I bet you've gotten it spelled all kinds of ways. I know I have. It even took my grandmother 25 years to finally spell it A-i-m-e-e on my Christmas presents.

BTW, did you know anyone on LSU's national team? My DH competed against them at regionals in Knoxville?

Thanks! I use the french pronunciation of it, too. My family gets it right - it was a family name. But at school, people consistently called me Amy, even after correcting them.

Didn't know anyone on LSU's national team. I didn't find the atmosphere at that school to be the friendliest...glad to be out of there!

[RobynScott]

:confused: - Aimee - I have to ask -what is the "french pronunciation"? I've never heard of that before. :confused:

[Aimee]

:confused: - Aimee - I have to ask -what is the "french pronunciation"? I've never heard of that before. :confused:

"A-may" as opposed to "Amy" It's actually spelled Aimée - note the accent aigu on the first "e" :)

I'm in New Orleans. More French than you can shake a stick at down here. My mom has a french, non-phonetic name too, so I guess she felt the need to share the love ;)

[sueandalvin]

Another lawyer checking in...

I am a criminal prosecutor..used to be a D.A. and now I work for the CA Attorney General's office in the Bureau of Medi-Cal fraud and Elder Abuse. Somehow I have managed to become our sex crimes expert. YUCK!

Did civil for 6 years and didn't like it. It is all about no billables and working for the government.

[lawyerlee]

Hi everybody. Unfortunately, we're still in special session. This is day 10 and the deadline the Supreme Court set for the Legislature to act. Since the special session started midweek last week, we've now been working for 12 days straight. It sucks! And if we're lucky, we'll get a couple of comp days to make up for it. :rolleyes:

There is a chance that they could finish up sometime later tonight. They have been in conference committee all day, but haven't yet even reached an agreement, let alone voted whether to adopt the committee report in either chamber. Ugh! Hopefully tonight will be it, though, so we can at least all go enjoy our three-day weekend. :)

I hope work is treating the rest of you a little better. ;)

[granada]

lawyerlee ~ Ugh. 12 days straight, that sounds awful. I hope they did finish last night, and you're now enjoying the 4th of July weekend. :)

The last couple of weeks, I've been working on 2 horrendous motions in a civil rights case. We finished the 2nd one Thursday. On Friday, the parties settled. Ack! Why didn't they settle two weeks ago?! Oh well...

[bubbles]

I'm a family law attorney. No support staff here. That's okay. I don't mind making a few copies. Does anyone else feel that there must be a better way to make a living? Do most jobs require 55 hour work weeks?

[Esq.]

There are probably better ways to make a living. I can't complain though. Compared to most of my friends, I have the cushiest hours at about 45-50 hours per week right now. But I am just starting out, and it seems that my hours are bound to increase as I grow more competent. I know that sounds counterintuitive, but I think as I become more competent, I am going to court more and more, and I will have to spend more hours catching up on office work.

[bubbles]

I think that as you grow more competent, your billables will increase, but not necessarily the number of hours you work per week. My husband has every other Friday off, different field, but I get green with envy! :)

[RobynScott]

Hey all - nothing new here - same ole same ole - but I have to shout out to justcbk and I thought she might see it here (guess I could try the Philly thread too) - I saw in another post you went to MHC class of '99. My best friend was MHC class of '98.

You know anybody in that class? Pretty Filipina girl names Johanna?

Hope everyone else is doing well and enjoying the shortened work week :)

Robyn :)

[justcbk]

robyn,

no johanna comes to mind, but i'll check my yearbook when i get home and see if her face rings a bell for me.




in other news (ok, this is only loosely "news") i'm happy to see how under control live 8 was. we both let out a sigh of relief when we got back into the city on monday and everything looked a-ok.

[lawyerlee]

My support staff situation really sucked when I started my job, but it's great now. I share a secretary with two other attorneys, and she's really awesome. She does excellent work, and we also get along really well, but haven't fallen into the dangerous friend trap, either. I think it's ideal. Additionally, we have another secretary in the office who handles all HR matters. She can be difficult (to put it nicely), but I just try to avoid her. And then we also have an exective secretary who does the Revisor's work and is in charge of all the secretaries. She's OK once she realizes that you're OK, if you know what I mean. No more than three attorneys have to share one secretary, so we're pretty lucky, I think. And we also have extra support staff come in during the session to do secretarial work and other things like run copies and take floor amendments into the chambers to the legislators.


We finally finished the special session really late Wednesday night. They adjourned Sine Die right after 11:30 pm. I was *so* happy, even though it was a terribly long day. My boss ended up giving us NINE days of special leave to make up for the horrible hours and weekends of extra work. He certainly raised his stock in my view. ;) I took today off to try to recover a bit. :)

Monday it's back to the grind. I have an Administrative Rules & Regs Committee meeting at 10 am, so I'll be jumping right back in. :)

[wander_woman]

Another lawyer here. I'm a second year associate at a big law firm. I do commercial litigation and international arbitration work. Some days I like it, some days I hate it, it all depends. It's ok for now, but I'm definitely not in it for the long haul.

I posted sporadically on the WC under the username Nymph. Glad to see some familiar names here!

[Lauren]

Just popping in to introduce myself -- I'm a first-year associate at a big firm, and I mostly practice corporate law. I'm sure I'll be in here to gripe quite a bit. ;) I was Lauren over on WC, and I'm utlawgirl on LJ.

[RobynScott]

another griping associate checking back in :) Friday I was super busy - like CRAZY - today I am bored :( - and - I think I've just decided to take next week off with Dh and go to the beach :) He's starting a new job and will have 2 weeks off - we just found out we have a free place to stay down the shore - things appear to be quiet here - so I guess I will go.

Anybody else feel strange taking time off? I don't know why - but it's weird to me - especially on such short notice ...

On another note - TOTAL GRIPE - I had an interview with another firm end of May / beginning of June - they were in a rush to get me in there to interview - and then nothing!

I spoke to the person I interviewed with a week and a half ago - no decision had been made yet.

He told me to call back the following week and call him - if I didn't get him - call the hiring coordinator - just so I could find out where they were in the process (b/c the committe had not yet met - no decision been made). Left her a message last week - this woman NEVER calls me back.

At this point, I would just like to know! I'm not even sure what I would do - but I am so annoyed at not having an answer - especially after they rushed me to get in there at a time when I was really busy! :mad:

aargh! - the interviews went well but this lack of communication is really leaving a sour taste in my mouth.

Thanks for letting me complain a bit.

Hope everyone else is having a better Monday :p

Robyn :)

[AttyGrl74]

Subscribing

xox
KELLY

[LalaKini]

I'm subscribing to this thread--gonna be a 1L starting August 22, and will have questions for you all, I'm sure :)

First question (which I have struggled with for a long while now): Now that you all have been through law school and started jobs, when would you say is the most...'convenient' time to have a child (I know there won't a good time)? I am a pretty non-traditional law student (I'm 30 now, going into patent law witha PhD in physiology/pharmacology), and we are trying to figure out when to start TTC. I'm leaning towards trying anytime after my 1L year - as I've heard that it would be easier to deal with pregnancy and a child during 2L and 3L years rather than your 1st-2nd years at a firm. I'd like to eventually work in-house at a pharmaceutical/biotech company, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to have to do my time at a big firm before I can get a job in-house.

How have any of you dealt with the baby bug/pregnancy in law school or in a law firm? Or how will you deal with it?

[justcbk]

lalakini - if i were in your shoes i wouldn't be either in the latter stages of pregnancy or a mother before the summer after my 2L year. the first year is just so intense, and you'll spend the better portion of the first-half of your second year traveling for interviews - which would be hard if you're pregnant or have a baby. plus, i know they shouldn't, but even if you've started to show, some firms might be biased against hiring a visably pregnant woman - which would include the time you spend as a summer associate.

just my 2 cents...

[kris97]

I think I agree with just cbk. First year is really, really tough. SEcond year is less so, but you do have to consider the prospect of second year summer, particularly if you're interested in big firms. If you're a public interest person, I think it's less of an issue. I thought third year was the easiest year of law school, so to the extent pregnancy can be planned, that's probably when I'd try. Just beward of the bar review process following graduation - that's another horrendous time that I probably would not want to be pregnant for.

On an unrelated note, can I vent for one second? HOw the hell I am supposed to coherently respond to a complaint brought by someone who claims that -- I am serious -- government agents videotaped him having sex with his wife in his apt and then "drove by his residence with coded messages on their license plates"?? This is out of A Beautiful Mind. I can't believe the amount of time it takes to deal with these utterly frivolous lawsuits.

[Esq.]

Lalakini- many of the ladies I went to school with had babies in our third year or right before the bar. They all passed the bar too! So, I would think that 3L is the best time to do it. My 3L was hard, but that is bc I was taking extra courses so that I could finish on time. I had decided in 2L to take four years, and then I changed my mind. ;)

Ok, ladies...I have what I consider to be a serious problem with my boss. I have only been with this firm since the first week of April. My boss is verbally abusive to me. I actually had to leave for a while yesterday bc I could not stop crying. The same thing happened the day before...but I just closed my door and tried to get it under control.

I am starting to feel like I am the one who is out of wack. The part time associate that started in May is not treated this way. In fact, she told me yesterday that it is way worse in other places (as far as I know she has had a job as a research atty for a court, and worked for a divorce atty for about a month...that is all. She is very know it all, and I am sure she thinks herself quite superior to me since our boss doesn't treat her in the same way).

I have to get going right now...I will be back later to post some examples. I just really need someone to tell me whether I am being hypersensitive, or blowing things out of proportion. I really don't think that I am, and actually feel dumb for doubting myself when I know that I am right, but feel the need to ask just in case.

And for the record, I have never been shy or a wilting flower. My husband is shocked at how often I have become upset while working here. He knows that I am not a crier...i get mad first. And I show someone that I am mad (not the way my boss does it, thankfully, but in a professional situation, I normally have no problem letting someone know that their treatment of me is unacceptable). However, this man just plain does not give me the opportunity to speak! He just screams over me, interrupts me the minute I try to explain something he asked me to explain, never lets me ask a question or defend myself. I don't know what to do short of walk away when he is speaking or scream just as loud right back. And here is the great part...I could do either of those things...and it wouldn't matter.

I am going to talk with the other 2 partners today and ask their advice on how to handle this. After yesterdays explosion at me, I really cannot just try to get along or move past this stuff. When I wait until he has calmed down to discuss it, he makes himself unavailable. And when he is not calm, it is useless to try.

bbl to give you some examples of his treatment of me

[AttyGrl74]

Krysten - you need to get out of that work situation! It sounds like it is detrimental to your mental health and is NOT normal!

Lalakini - I've been licensed since 99 and just had a baby and I can safely say that new parenthood is *really rough* for the first 6 months AT LEAST. Were you planning on taking time off from school after you have the baby? Most daycares won't take babies smaller than 6 weeks.

If I were in your shoes - I would try for a June baby for the summer after your 2nd year. Take that summer off and stay home with the new baby. Of course - that would be exams in May at 9 months pg which would be rough too.

Good luck to you!

Do any of you women do Victim's Advocacy?

[Lauren]

Kyrsten, that sounds like a horrible situation. It is *never* acceptable for your boss to yell over you and not give you a chance to be heard. That is in no way constructive. I think you are doing the right thing by talking to other partners about how you're being treated -- hopefully they can talk to your boss about his behavior and get you out of that situation so you don't have to work with him anymore. Regardless of anything else, that doesn't sound like a productive work situation for either of you.

RobynScott, I feel your pain. I was super-busy for the last month or so, and now I have almost nothing to work on. I almost prefer being super-busy to being bored, but those are crappy choices, no? I wish there was some middle ground in this business.

LalaKini, I knew several women who had babies during law school, but as others have said, the timing can be difficult. I also know one woman at work who is a second-year associate who had a baby a few weeks ago and plans to come back to work. Since she's not back yet, I don't know how that's working out for her, but I'd think it would be pretty difficult given the hours we work sometimes. Not that I have any personal experience with any of this, but I don't think there's really a "right" time -- you just have to do what works for you.

[mamacita]

LalaKini~ I had my first baby in August after my first year of law school (found out I was pregnant during first semester exams!). It was wonderful (unplanned) timing for us, but it depends on so many factors, most importantly what kind of support system you'll have. I was lucky to have my mom move into town and offer herself up for childcare, so I was (am) fairly spoiled. But generally, I do think school is a great time to have a baby-- your schedule is much more flexible, you have more time to be at home. I wouldn't have changed it.

My second baby was born after I practiced for two years. I thought being pregnant while working in a (big) law firm was much more stressful. I quit my job 6 weeks after she was born (just started a new job 2 weeks ago, when she was 12 weeks old), but I think it would have been horrible to go back to the firm. Again, though, totally dependent on circumstances. Going to law school doesn't mean you'll become a big firm atty, and working for a big firm doesn't necessarily mean it will be a bad environment for raising a family (though I honestly think it usually means that-- our firm was known for being fairly family friendly and I wasn't impressed).

[LeighW]

Another attorney here. :) I'm a tax lawyer and work for the federal government part-time (32 hours or 4 days a week). As a former big firm associate, I love my job!

Lalakini~If you are sure you are going the big firm route, at least right out of law school, I concur with justcbk. I would not plan on being pregnant as a 1L or 2L. It might be more doable as a 2L if you are not going to interview with out-of-town firms, but it still might be tricky to be visibly pregnant while interviewing or as a summer associate.

The only person I know who had a baby as a 3L who went to a big firm quit after a year and found a more family-friendly government job. But, I am older than most folks here and maybe things are a little more relaxed now. Not that any big firms have relaxed their billable requirements--I mean maybe more women associates are having babies sooner and it is more accepted.

I also think it will be difficult to be pregnant or have an infant during your first or second year at a big firm. Unless you have great childcare (with flexible hours) and a great support network, it will be tough. You can certainly do anything you need to want to do, but caring for an infant and trying to make a good impression at a new job will be hard, especially at a firm with a serious billable hour requirement.

On the other side of the coin, my experiences are as a litigator without a specialized background. With your advanced degrees and patent law specialty, you might have a different experience with a firm that needs your skill set.

Good luck!

[Esq.]

Okay- I am back to post my examples. Here are just a few:

1. One of our larger clients is the Defendant in a case going on in Tx (we are in Michigan). Our lead counsel there (we are appearing pro hac vice) had Plaintiff's motion for summary judgment on his desk for 15 days without knowing it. This past Monday he called me in a panic. He, of course, could not get in touch with my boss and wanted to get started answering it, as we obviously had limited time. In Tx you have 20 days to answer a motion. So, he and I start working. Of course, this ended up being a situation where we needed things from the client to support our answer. The assistant to the CEO wanted to know, on Monday, why we were so rushed. I knew that my boss would not want me to tell her the truth, so I told her that I really didn't know, but I thought that it was just the Mi./Tx. thing. Well, this situation ended up going through Wednesday. She continually asked me for an explanation, and finally on Wednesday told me that she could understand if there was some kind of actual mix up, but she had nothing to tell her boss, and that made him think that he was not a very important client. So, I gracefully (and I am serious, I did it well...not to toot my own horn) managed to tell her that the document had gone unnoticed for some unknown reason. This explanation was of course given after I reassured her that they are our most valued client, and we would never leave them to last while we worked on other things. She totally understood. I got 2 seconds of my boss' time later that day. She had originally wanted to talk to him, she was so mad. But when I saw him, I let him know that he didn't need to call her, that I had taken care of it, and relayed the story. Before I could even explain my reasoning (she worked in a law office and knew better than to accept the Mi./Tx. stuff- she knew that I was not telling the truth...but give me an excuse bc of my saying "I don't know but I think...") he started jumping up and down screaming at me in the door way of my office, yelling that I should never ever do that again (what, tell the TRUTH?!) and that this was a major f-in screw up on my part. I mean SCREAMING. Everyone in the entire office knows about it, whether they were here to hear it or not. It was horrible.

I know that some people will agree with his reasoning. I personally do not. And counsel in TX. does not. And several people in this office do not. I have a bar card too, and I am not going to lose it lying bc he wants me too.

2. About a month after I started he screamed at me for filling in the blanks on an order. He yelled "I don't know why you insist on being an f-in secretary when you are a lawyer."

3. He gave some interrogatories and request for production to answer. The way it works around here is the admin get the mail, open it, but due dates, etc. in the calendar, and then bring it to you. I couldn't find the due date in the calendar (I looked for both 21 and 28 day due dates bc that is what they are in Mi). I went to his secretary to ask if they had been put in bc I didn't want to mess with their system (they are very picky about it). He was in her office, and he asked what I wanted. I explained it to him. He asked "Who is your secretary?" Background here: I don't have one anymore. She quit bc he yells all the time. I loved her, was friends with her, still keep in contact with her. I know that you are not supposed to get over friendly with your support staff, but it worked for us. But anyway, I answered that it is going to be Monica when she starts. He asked who it is now. And I said that I guessed it was the temp. More background: WE have not had a temp in 2 weeks for my secretary. The only reason we had a temp that day is bc his secretary was going on vacation, and he was prepping for that by having the temp in one day before his sec left. So, anyway, he then told me to go have MY secretary put it in the calendar. This is an electronic calendar that is not the most users friendly. She had been here for one day. Yeah Right! Like she would know how to do it. I would just do it myself, but I would get yelled at either by him or the secs if they found out.

4. Last one, even though there are way more I could write, the same client I was speaking about in number 1, but a different case. They are very difficult to get information/documentation from. Opposing counsel is actually harassing me at this point, sending new set of interrogatories and request before the due date for the last set is even up, and in addition sending letter threatening to file a motion to compel bc he think our answers to the rogs 2 sets ago are insufficient. He sends a letter like this a week. I gave the interrogatories to the CEO as soon as I got them, so that he could give me his answers, I could work on mine, put them together and send them. In the mean time I asked his assistant to get specific supporting documentation. They were due on the 8th, so I asked that the supporting docs and drafts of CEO answers be to me by the 5th. 5th came and went, and I get nothing. I call and ask that they have them to me by the next day, explain that I need to combine them with mine, etc. I do all of this very nicely. On the 6th, CEO calls me and says "Can't we have an extension?" You see, he expects them now bc boss has taken so many. I explain that we probably can't bc opp counsel would have to agree, and since boss just refused to agree to adjourn our motion to compel upon opp counsel’s request, I don't see him giving us an extension. CEO says he understands and he will get them to me. I tell boss this later that day and get screamed at for telling the client no. But, the reality of the situation is that I am an advocate, and I should be advocating what is in the client's best interest. It was not in his best interest to take another extension, when the zillion we have already taken along with unilateral cancellation of depositions by this office, are already being used against us. It is not in the client's best interest to think that the 28 day due date is not really a due date. And he understood what I said and I KNOW that he did not feel like I was "telling him no".

ok...I know this is rambly, but I am at work, and trying to type when I get the chance. hope it makes some sense. Any advice would be appreciated.

[RobynScott]

wow Krysten - I don't really know what to say - my mouth is still hanging open.

Needless to say that is not a normal work environment - certainly not a place I could work. I'd be looking around - sending out my resume fast and furious - you do not deserve to be treated like that.

Whoever says it's better than everywhere else - well, I'd hate to work where she's worked! I work in a big firm (and have friends in big firms) - and while occasionally you will find some screamers, I've never heard of anything like that.

You need to find a more suppportive work environment.

One site that I have been using to look around is lawcrossing.com (http://lawcrossing.com) - it costs $19.95/month but they scour all of the ads for you and put it all in one place (and they have ads for all over the country)

Good luck - there are better options out there - there have to be!

[thompso2]

Another lawyer here. I'm a second year at a big firm, doing corporate work. Other than the hours, I like what I do, but man, the hours can be killer!

[linekelei]

Hi Kyrsten-
I used to post over on the WC sometimes under August2004 in the attorney thread. The guy you work for sounds like a total tool, but honestly, if I were you and I had to stick out the situation with him, I'm make no more independent decisions on your own. It sounds like he wants everything run by him, ok'ed by him, etc., and that he's not really into you making decisions without him. Obviously he seems hard to get ahold of, but I've found that lots of partners want to make the final decision on all things, whether it's the decision on asking for an extension or what to tell the client as to why a brief is under a "rush" deadline. Law firms are a major exercise in CYA. I've had the same experiences, too, with some terrible partners. Now that I'm a 3rd year I'm definitely get more responsibility and making decisions on my own, but as a 1st year, I was running every single thing I did by the partner I was working for. And if I couldn't get ahold of the partner, I'd find another partner, run the decision by him/her, and then let original partner know that I discussed the situation with "X," "X" told me to do this, you weren't available, and this is what was done.

I know it's a major PITA, and I'm sure you're making good decisions, but lots of partners like to micro-manage and this guy sounds like one of those. Any chance you can try to do some work for some other partners? That might make your work life more pleasant. One of the major reasons I left my big firm was b/c the partner I did most of my work for was a major micro-manager, as well as passive/aggressive and I just couldn't handle the emotional instability I was suffering every day at the hands of him! Anyway, in the meantime, I'd just stop making a lot of independent decisions. Sounds silly, by it's a good tactic for handling guys like this. As for the secretary thing, I'd talk to your office manager about having someone calendar the dates for you, or I'd approach another secretary and beg. ;)

[bubbles]

Hi ladies,

I need some advice. For those of you who hate their job and have gotten interviews at other firms, what do you say when your interviewer asks why you are leaving your current position? Doesn't it go without saying that if the current position is so great, I probably won't be applying else where?

My reason would be because although I like the practice that I'm in, my boss is an a** whole. :)

How should you respond if they ask for your salary requirements in job ads?

Thank you in advance.

I was also on that other message board, and I like this one much better.

Anyone know of firms looking to hire in LA? Really, I'm desperate.

[ADSigMel]

Oooh, can I play with you girls, too? I just finished my first year at Vanderbilt (in Nashville), and I'm working in Birmingham, Alabama this summer. I think (based on a year of law school and two months as a summer associate) that I want to practice civil defense litigation.

I'm at my second half job now, which is with a large regional firm in the southeast. I spent the first half with a medium-sized local firm. After I'm done here, I'll be spending the last two weeks of the summer with a very small local firm.

For those of you working in the private sector, what's your favorite firm size, or does it not matter that much to you?

~Melody

[pickle]

Hey guys...

I just got back from an interview myself, bubbles, and I'm in a (somewhat) similar boat. I just said that my primary motivation was financial. I mean, everyone wants to earn more, right? And I've always been told that you should give a range when they ask for salary requirements.

I can't believe I'm doing it, but I just met with a headhunter to look at getting back into practicing. What am I thinking? Giving up my cushy 9-5 job? I must be nuts!

[bubbles]

Thank you pickle. I guess honestly is a good way to go. Lawyers can see if someone is not being upfront.

[AttyGrl74]

Is anyone else just freaking SWAMPED this week?

Ugh.

[lawgirl4]

Hi! I used to post on this thread on WC, but I have officially decided not to take the bar and will not be practicing law despite graduating from law school this past may. It was a hard, often wrenching decision to make, but I am pretty happy about it now. On the one hand, I can't believe I devoted three hard years of my life to law school only to wind up not practicing, but on the other hand, I don't think I would have been very happy practicing. Instead, I am developing a stationery company and I'll be an academic adviser at a well-known university starting this fall!

Pickle - are you not practicing now? I'm in Chicago too... good luck with your job hunt!!!

Kyrsten - do you have anyone in HR that you could talk to? I cannot imagine having to go to work every day in your circumstances. Please find someone at your firm who can listen honestly to your concerns.

[bubbles]

lawgirl4,
I've often wondered what other careers I could've should've had, but we all make difficult choices and I know yours must have been the same. Good luck to you!

[lawyerlee]

I'm sorry to hear things have been so stressful for you, Krysten. :( If there is any way you could work more under another partner, I'd definitely try to persue that. Beyond that, I'd just try to go through him for everything, as others have suggested. CYA is the name of the game. ;)

Things have been very quiet around the Statehouse since we finished our special session, and it's been very nice. My interim committees are going well and keeping me just busy enough to stay sane.

[pickle]

lawgirl4- I'm not practicing now...I work in publishing (which I actually really like). Good for you for not taking the bar. Even when I was taking it, I already thought that I might not want to practice, so you have saved yourself a lot of stress!

[caramello]

I'm in my fifth year as a practicing attorney! Where has all the time gone?? For the most part, I enjoy the challenge, but hate the hours, especially the billables!

Bubbles - In response to your question re what to tell people on interviews why you are leaving, I say tell the truth! When I left one of my prior firms, I was completely honest. I was spending more time opposing motions for sanctions and listening to my boss scream and doors slam than I was learning anything useful! People appeared to be understanding. I got a new job within a couple of weeks of interviewing and I didn't feel like I was forced to take a paycut because people knew how desparate I was to get out of my old firm! A mentor once told me that its pretty common for people in the first couple of years to move around a lot because we are just learning about the practice of law and how to function in a legal environment. Good luck!

[LalaKini]

Just wanted to thank all of you for your input about having babies and law school/practice. The more I think about it, the more stressed I get--I know for sure that I don't want to be pregnant during my 1L year, and I'd rather not wait until after I'm practicing since I wouldn't want to get pregnant right away. As it stands now, I'll be 33 when I graduate, so it seems I should try during school or wait until a year or 2 out of law school, putting me at 34-35. I realize that many women have their 1st child successfully at age 35+, but I'm a little uncomfortable with it. Eh, I guess I'll just deal with life as it comes.

Thanks again ladies!

[bubbles]

Thanks caramello,

I hope that it only takes a few weeks for me to find something new. Well, I'll stop complaining now. I'm not always a grouch.

In spite of all my complaining, I only wanted to enter one profession while I was growing up, and here I am!

[ADSigMel]

Do you guys ever feel burned out? I've been clerking for the past 10 weeks, and I'm about ready to jump out a window! It's not so much the work that is getting to me, but all of the lunches and dinners and bars and golf games and activities are driving me to distraction! I don't think I've had a day when I could just sit at my desk and work from 9 to 6 since I started at this new firm! Please, please, please tell me it won't be like this once I start practicing! I love what I do, but I REALLY don't need to see quite this much of the people I work with! I know they want to get to know me to decide if they want to make me an offer for next summer, but this is driving me INSANE! I WANT SOME PRIVATE TIME!!! :eek:

Thank you for letting me vent. :o

~Mel

[pickle]

ADSigMel-Don't worry, it won't last. Once you start practicing, they want you chained to your desk at least from 9 to 6...one can't bill hours on the golf course. ;) Try to enjoy it while you can.

[gokatgo]

LalaKini - I'm getting ready to start my 3rd year (I'm 28) and that's a decision I've struggled with since I started law school. I don't really have a plan as far as children yet, it will depend greatly on where I'm working after graduation. I don't have a lot of advice on the topic, but just wanted to let you know you're definitely not alone in having child concerns.

But I definitely wouldn't recommend it as a 1L!

[ysolde]

Another attorney checking in. I work in a non-partnership track position at a big firm. It has its good days and its bad days. ;)

[Esq.]

I am trying to decide when to have kids too. But I think my issue is more not being ready, but feeling like I should be by now in addition to feeling like time is running out. I am having a hard time adjusting to working in this firm. I can't imagine trying to load one more thing on my plate. And my hours are pretty damn good compared to others! I get home between 6 and 7 almost every night...leave for work between 8 and 9. I just don't know where I would fit in time with baby, time with hubby, and an hour of exercise (I say that bc I KNOW I am not someone whose extra weight would just melt off after having a baby, and I KNOW that would be miserable any bigger than I am now...bc I am already not so happy with the bod).

[gokatgo]

I think my issue is more not being ready, but feeling like I should be by now in addition to feeling like time is running out

Krysten - this perfectly describes my feelings! The biological clock keeps getting louder and I know it will get more complicated when I start my actual career, but I am enjoying not having kids right now.
I feel like I'll have a little more freedom to start a family if I start out working for a govt. agency or clerking (as opposed to a firm), but I know it will be extremely challenging either way.

[Esq.]

I am glad I am not the only one gokatgo. Sometimes I feel like a leper. :) I just don't want to wait so long that it is no longer an option, and then regretnever having kids.

My hours are pretty comparable to what they would have been if I had stayed at the prosecutor's office. I don't think that hours get better than mine...but I am sure that pay does. :) My issue is that I don't want to work more hours than I do NOW...so I am sure that I wouldn't want to work any more if we had kids. And I just don't think fewer hours are an option...ever.

I guess I just don't really like any of my options. That is pretty typical for me, actually. ;)

[mrsfromage]

ADsigMel, I am a junior associate and I can reassure that the constant social events will stop when you are not a summer clerk. In some ways, it is nice for awhile because you get to do a lot of things you might not otherwise do--when else would I have gotten tickets to Shakespeare in Central Park--but I can totally sympathize with not wanting to spend every evening with your coworkers and eating every meal (no matter how elaborate) with coworkers. Being on your best behavior and being social all the time is a bit exhausting. Hang in there!

Kyrsten is work any better for you?

[Esq.]

Thanks for asking mrsfromage!

He has not blownup at me since that last day. I did talk to one of theother partners while he was gone for his son's bar maitzvah, and I let that partner know that I would not tolerate it, etc. I told him that I would be speaking with Steve (blow up partner) when he returned. But, as he always does, Steve has made it impossible to talk to him about it. He controls every conversation, makes himself unavailable, etc. So, for now I guess I will let it go and wait to see if it happens again. It seems that he has been on his best behavoir with me since coming back from his son's barmitzvah.

So, here is a question...how many things do you all normally have going at the same time? How many things/cases/projects/assignments up in the air at one time? And if you had a slower than molasses secretary, would that impact your billables? It is impacting mine, bc I can blow through ten things, and not get the first one back from her in the mean time. I have been reluctant to ask for more work, bc when it all starts coming back, I am going to be buried. But I am only billing 4hours a day right now bc she is so slow. I told Steve this last night, and he seemed to think that her slowness should have nothing to do withmy billing. But I think he just doens't understand that I don't have limitless things to do, and she really is so slow that I can get everything on my plate done (as far as dictating it, or whatever stage I am in at that point) and give it to her, and have nothing left to do until she gives it back to me (at which point I can start revising, etc). Does that make any sense, or am I doing something wrong?

[ADSigMel]

Krysten, I understand exactly what you mean (I mean, not that I have a secretary or anything, but I get your point). Have you talked to the secretary? Is Steve the partner in charge of hiring staff? I mean, if your secretary is slow enough to be affecting your billable hours, it is in the firm's best interest to either get her to speed up or fire her b/c she is totally cutting into their profits. I know you probably don't want to say anything to her, since if I understand your situation, she's old enough to be your mom. But the fact is that she is there to work for you. If she can't do her job, then she needs to find another one. There is no room for incompetency in the legal profession, since so many matters are so time-sensitive. You should definitely let her know that her ineptitude is not going un-noticed.

[Esq.]

She just started this week, so I want to give her a chance. But seriously. I have answers to requests for production and interrogatories that are due on the 3rd, are not completely answered yet as they are still in the stage bc the client is slower than molasses at helping me with anything I can't do myself, and she takes over one whole day to get REVISIONS back to me. Were talking about a half an hour of work here.... I have an answer to complaint that I dictated on TUESDAY that she still has not even started to type! Am I expecting too much? My last sec was awesome...so maybe I am a little spoiled?

[Esq.]

okay, well I spoke too soon about the work conditions, I guess. No yelling or screaming, but they sent the office manager in today to "talk" to me about dressing more like an atty. I bring a jacket to work everyday, I just tend to leave it in my car. I don't have a coat rack, it falls off my door handle, and I almost caught one on fire when I put it on the back of my chair and the chair spun under my floor lamp...hence heating up one spot of my jacket very quickly. It was literally almost smoking when I noticed it.

So, if they walk around without their jackets on, what is wrong with me doing the same? Obviously, they assume that I am an idiot and don't even bring one, and I guess I find that a little insulting.

Then she went on to tell me that I want to make sure that I am in the office by nine everday. I am there by 9:30 latest bc I have quite a drive in comparison to everyone else. When I started, and even before that during my interview, I was told that I could come in when I wanted, etc. In fact,one of the partners suggested me leaving my house at 9:30 to avoid the traffic. Of course, I have never done that. And I am in earlier than the controlling partner's secretary most mornings! And she leaves at 5 on the dot every day. I guess I thought, mainly bc I was told :rolleyes: , that I would have a bit of autonomy, and certainly more than a secretary.

I told her all of the above, and she said that she totally understood, and that the partners don't talk to each other, that is why they need her to be mediator.

So, then I asked "So, are you going to go tell them what we have dicussed? Is that how this works? I would like to think that they would come directly to me if they had a problem." To which she replied that Steve (controlling partner) doesn't like to be the bad guy. Well, you know what? Too F'in bad. You don't send in someone who is technically my subordinate to tell me to "dress like an atty and be in by nine".

I am so f'in pissed right now. I tried to call Steve, but bc it is Friday and almost the Sabbath, he won't call back (even though the sun has not gone down, and he technically can).

Am I overreacting?

[linekelei]

No, you are not overreacting. That's terrible that they sent in the office manager to tell you that. We have a similar problem at my firm-office manager with too much authority, or one who she thinks she has a lot of authority. You are in a tough position b/c the partner basically sent her in to be the bad guy. The place sounds really bad-have you tried looking at other firms/jobs? Also, how many partners are there? Is there any other partner (besides a**hole partner) that you can discuss the problem with?

[Esq.]

Thanks Lindley. I guess I am just thoroughly insulted. I mean, I am not an idiot, I know that I need to have a jacket available. But was it dumb of me to think that I didn't need to wear it unless I was seeing a client/going to court?

And the nine o'clock thing is not unreasonable at all. But my problem is, how can you expect me to live up to an uncommunicated standard? Especially when, in fact, the exact opposite was the standard communicated?

I talked to one of the other partners about the screaming issue, and I had spoken with him once before about feeling like Steve was unfairly frustrated with me. Steve would not admit to being frustrated with me, but he was. He just has a lot of unfair emotions, and he will trash anyone in that place any given second, then turn around and act like that person is the best thing since sliced bread.

This is my first job out of law school. I have only been here 4 months. I looked on my schools job posting site to see if there was anything listed there, and there was not one single atty job listed. Then I did a national eattorney search for Michigan, and came up with about 10 positions, all of which required 2-4 years experience or were for patent positions. So that is not very helpful for me.

It would look really bad if I left this job before I had been there a year. I think that I am just going to have to live with it until then, and start getting myself together to start looking as soon as reasonably possible.

I am going to join some associations and stuff to make myself look better to potential emplloyers. Anyone a member of anything good? Anything that you actually WANT to be a member of? Right now I am only a member of the State Bar and the ABA. I will join a couple of county bar associations, and then I need to get into something that actually DOES something. The part time associate at my firm is on the board for CLE and invited me to a meeting last week. But she waited until the day of, and I just don't work that way. I told her to let me know when the next meeting was, and I would love to go.

You know what really sucks? I WAITED for this job. I held out until I thought I was being offered a position that I really wanted. I was extremely excited when I took this position, and truly felt that it was a perfect opportunity. And for the first month or so, it really was. And then everything changed. And it has really done a number on my self esteem as an atty. It is hard enough being brand new, but now I feel like an idiot all of the time.

And I know that I am not. When I go with my instincts, I am most often dead on. But bc Steve never lets me speak, pretends he knows what I am going to say, talks over me, acts like I am wasting space...my kneejerk reaction is to feel like I must be a flaming idiot.

And then I feel like an idiot bc I think maybe I am just weak, and that this situation is not as bad as I am making it out to be, or that it really isn't as bad as I feel it is. And I must be crazy or something.

But I am stronger than that...I know better than that. I can get through one year of this, and then move on. Hell, I really don't have any other choice.

Sorry for rambling and taking up so much space.

[mrsfromage]

Kyrsten, I am sorry to hear all of that. Your job sounds pretty awful. Eventually you may need a new one :eek: if it doesn't get better.

On your secretary affecting your billables, you should let her know she is holding you up--she may not know, and you need to do things to make the situation better--like making your own revisions. I know you shouldn't have to do that, but the firm will blame you (not her) if you are only billing four hours a day. Instead of sitting around, it would be better to do it yourself and then complain that you are having to do secretarial work yourself because she is not helpful. Basically I think you must problem solve around this one to get your billables up.

Seems silly about the jacket to me, but I guess you need to follow the office 'norms'--maybe they think you aren't fitting in or look too young? That seems the silliest to me.

[Esq.]

mrsfromage- I want to give the secretary a chance to gain her footing. She jsut started, and she worked criminal before this for 6 years. I am in commercial litigation, so it must be quite a change for her. She is really nice, if not the sharpest knife in the drawer. I think that if I give her time, she will be great. But I don't want to make her feel bad about herself and her abilities before she has had a chance to groom herself to her new position.

Oh, and a note on the jacket thing. This is not entirely relevant, as I am an atty and the people I am about to mention are not, but I guess it all kind of colored my view of how the partners view this stuff. The office manager has quite the eccentric fashion sense. She wears bright pink tights with purple stillettos about every other week. She also has a read dress that she wears with orange hose. She is very NOT conservative, and I was honestly shocked that she was allowed to dress that way. Then we have a secretary who never wears her shoes. In fact, when I was sitting in the lobby for my first interview, she came through the lobby to go out into the hallway, and I noticed that she was not wearing shoes. We recently hired the sevretary's daughter to do filing, and she dies her hair funny colors that change about every four to five days. She wear mini skirts with high boots, literally does not brush her hair (and you can imagine what it looks like with all of that coloring going on). The part time atty that started in May always wears a "jacket" if you consider cheetah print, thin, jersoy over a black jersey dress a jacket (picture something your grandmother would buy off of QVC). Now, she has some quite appropriate outfits, btu she is very unkempt. She has very long, fuzzy hair that she does nothing with, comes to work with it wet in a ponytail or a braid.

Now, out of all of those people, I know I can really only compare myself to the other atty, and I guess maybe the office manager now...since she is the one that they sent to talk to me. But I feel that the rest contribute to ones view of what is appropriate and what is not in that particular office. I would never dress like the secretary's daughter, or run around bare foot, or wear pink tights with purple stilletos. I wear dress pants and a nice shirt every day. I have a jacket with me every day, but don't always wear it. Often, bc it is cold, I throw on a cardigan. Yesterday, when this all happened, I was wearing black editor pants from Express, a short sleeved argyle sweater from jcrew that was light green and white with pink accents, and a pink cable knit cardingan. Out in my car I had a jacket from Ann Taylor, which was also a pink color.

to illustrate (bc I want to know whether it is me that has the wrong idea of what is appropriate here):

this shirt, but short sleeve, lighter greens, with the digonal stripes in pink
http://jcrew.com/images/newshots2004/main152/70214_KC4169_FA05_m.jpg

and a cardigan like this, but in pink:
http://jcrew.com/images/newshots2004/main152/70213_GR6930_FA05_m.jpg

And i do have to say, picking up on the small stripe of pink in the shirt is pretty funky for me.

again, this was paired with black editor pants from Express and I had a jacket from Ann Taylor, in a more conservative pink, in the car. I would post the jacket, but I bought it a while ago, and I can't find it online.

Tell me the truth, don't be afraid to be brutal, was that an inappropriate outfit?

[linekelei]

Is your office "business" or "business casual?" Because I think your outfit is entirely appropriate for business casual, but if your office is business, with your cardigan on, it may look like less of a suit with a suit jacket, kwim?

As for everything else, I agree you'll probably have to try to stick it out a year. Unless you want to get a government job-they care less about how long you spent at your firm because they are typically just desperate for people.

I don't have much advice, as the situation sounds pretty bad. I'd just try to lay low for awhile and hope that people leave you alone.

[Esq.]

The men wear suits and ties, but only wear their jackets when they see clients. I see my not wearing the jacket the same as them not wearing a jacket. And they may wear ties, but I wear heels and have to do my hair in an atty like fashion (which is a bun, almost every single day...bc I am challenged when it comes to doingmy own hair :)).

But as for the rest of the office, it is as I described above...which I wouldn't classify as even business casual. It is less than business casual. In fact, office manager has worn a jacket made out of denim with khaki pants. That is not even business casual in my mind, that is just plain casual.

But the men wear suits bc they have no other options. I have a jacket every day, just as they do, and I don't wear it unless I am seeing a client/going to court, just as they don't.

I just don't get it. But I guess I will have to deal with it. I told office manager to get me a coat rack and I will hang my jacket in the office every day. Maybe I will put a sign on my door that reads: LOOK AT THE COATRACK JACKASS

That could be taking it a bit too far :D but funny nonetheless. At least I would get a kick out of it.

Like the day that Steve screamed his head off at me. One of the other associates suggested that I write myself a memo from Steve that said "I don't know anything" (because that was basically what Steve wanted me to say to a client) and the next timeSteve asked me why I didn't do something/handle something, go get the memo out of my desk and hand it to him. That would be hilarious! I actually daydream about doing stuff like that. My evil side is fighting to rise to the top :)

[linekelei]

Hi Kyrsten-
Based on what the other men attorneys wear, I'd classify your office as "business," at least for the attorneys. It's a pain, but to protect yourself, I'd wear your jacket into the office every morning and then just take it off while you are working, and maybe keep it hanging on a chair in your office, or somewhere VERY visible, so that everyone knows you are wearing a suit. I can't believe what jerks these people are that you work with. They sound so uptight! I've been fortunate enough to always work in a legal environment that's pretty casual, so I get to wear business casual every day, though I often push the limits. ;) But I think California just has a much more relaxed working environment than a lot of other states.

[caramello]

Kyrsten - I haven't read all of this thread, so excuse me if I'm missing something. Aside from all the stuff about the dress code in your office and the yelling by Steve, I noticed you said you want to stay there at least a year, correct? Is this your first job? If you just recently got out of school, I think its quite understandable if you don't last a year in your first (second, etc.) job. Most of us had no idea what the real world would be like when we were in school. There are very few practical courses to gear you up for practicing in the real world - at least not in Southern California anyway. You're just beginning your career and are trying to find a fit for you, in terms of practice of law, personality fit with the firm, etc. What I am trying to say is don't feel compelled to stay there a year if it is going to make you miserable. Your health and mental well-being are far too important! Just keep an eye out for other possibilities - sometimes they come around when you are least expecting it.

Sorry, can't add anything to your dilemma re dress code. We dress casual (i.e. jeans) unless a big client is coming in. But before you guys say you're jealous, I work for an insurance defense firm, so the money is not that great, but at least it saves on dry cleaning!

[caramello]

HapaGirl - What types of things are important for you in terms of a good working enviroment? There are many things that could comprise a good working environment -i.e. billable hours, dress code, $$$, pro bono work, sick/vacation time, attorney to secretary ratio, open door policy with partners, amount of supervision, maternity leave, partnership track, size of firm, etc. Since you've just finished your first year (congrats BTW), do you know what type of law you want to practice? If you can give us a little more detail on what you're looking for, hopefully I can answer some of your questions re different firm's working enviroments or I can always ask around for you.

[granada]

HapaGirl ~ If you're looking for a "lifestyle firm," I'd suggest looking at smaller firms. Most of the bigger firms will want you to work like crazy. This is sort of the general rule, but I also know that there are smaller firms that want you to work like crazy but pay much less than the bigger firms, in which case, I'd take the bigger firm. :rolleyes: Honestly, though, I wouldn't even ask about the lifestyle stuff at the first interview. I'd work on wowing them so you can get a callback. And I'm not sure that I'd ask during the callback either. I'd probably wait until I got the offer. This is somewhat general, so once you get your interviews, if you have questions about specific firms, we might be able to give you more specific answers. :)

[caramello]

HapaGirl - I agree with what Granada said. I work at a mid-size firm. The pay is okay, definitely not as great as the big firms, but then again, I don't work crazy hours - well, I sorta do, but it has more to do with my personality than anything. Definitely let us know when you have certain firms in mind or a certain area of law in mind, it will be easier to give you opinions or let you know the reputation of the firms.

Did you do anything legal related this summer? Did you enjoy it?

[AttyGrl74]

If you're looking for lifestyle - government work is the way to go!

[kris97]

Hapa I don't know if you've mentioned this, but have you considered clerking? I clerked for a fed judge my first year out of law school, and it was the most rewarding experience. It's such an invaluable education, to see the court from the eyes of a judge - especially if you're interested in litigation. I was always set on being a prosecutor, so I didn't really look into clerking until a law school professor, and I'm so glad I did. To this day, I regularly have lunch with "my judge"- and I've no doubt it's because of his recommendation that I got my present job (I'm at a usao now). If you have any questions about the clerkship process, or whatever, I'd be happy to help. :)

[kris97]

hapa So glad to hear you are considering clerking - really, I can't recommend it enough. It's so amazing, not just the learning experience, but to feel part of a judge's "clerk family" long after the job has ended. I will be happy to answer whatever questions you might have (email or private messaging would be best if you want the scoop about which judges. :) ) That's great to hear you had apositive experience at the usao. which district were you in? did you get to do crim or civil?

[granada]

I'm clerking for a judge right now. My clerkship ends soon, and I really wish I could chain myself to my desk and never leave! I don't want to go out into the real world. I totally agree about how nice it is being part of a "clerk family." My judge has a reunion every year for all her past and present law clerks, and it was so great meeting all her former law clerks, people who have shared this common experience with me.

If you're interested in clerking, I'd recommend an externship with a judge. I think externships can be good or not so good, depending on the chambers. But they are worthwhile to give you more exposure to what law clerks do.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of CA firms that are more "lifestyle firms." (Isn't that sad!?) But if I think of some in the next couple of days, I'll post here.

[caramello]

HapaGirl - A clerkship after graduation would be a great experience! I clerked for a judge my first summer and I learned a lot! Yes, I'm in Los Angeles, so definitely let me know when you start getting interviews or start researching firms, I'm more than happy to help you out or at least ask around for you. PM me when you think of something - I'd rather not publicly give my opinions on a firm, KWIM? :D

[linekelei]

HapaGirl- Thought I'd just add my 2 cents.

Make sure you really, really want to work in a firm. It's very easy to summer at a firm, enjoy all of the summer events, get off of work at 5 every day, and then think working in a firm is great. Firms work really hard to make sure summers have a great time, when in reality, working in a firm is nothing like the summer associate program. And once you start working in a firm, it's very easy to get used to having a certain income and lifestyle, making it hard to take a pay cut later (hello, welcome to my life ;) ).

Anyway, as for mid-sized lifestyle firms in LA or San Francisco-what do you mean by lifestyle? Billable hours? Are you willing to work for less than market?

I have a few friends from law school that work at Farella Braun in San Francisco-they pay a bit lower than market, and supposedly it's more of a lifestyle firm. They still work really hard and bill at least 1950 a year, so I don't know if it really is a lifestyle firm. I also know some people who went to Alschuler in LA-again, considered a "lifestyle" firm, but not really. You're still billing in the 2000 hour range, but I guess for law firms, that's not so bad.

Let me just give you an example-I started out working at Latham & Watkins in the OC office (it's an LA-based firm). Minimum billables are 1900. I billed 2200 client hours the first year, plus almost 200 non-billable hours (presentations, business development, etc., which LW basically makes you do, even though only 100 hours of it count towards your bonus). If I took absolutely no vacation and worked 5 days a week, 52 weeks in a year, that's still a little bit over 46 hours per week. The crazy thing about it is that working in a firm is very cyclical, so some weeks I billed maybe 30 hours, which means I made up all of those other hours in other weeks & on weekends (like every single 3-day weekend in 2003!!!!). I also managed to take about 2 weeks off that year, and a few holidays (like the major ones-Christmas, New Years, and Thanksgiving), so I averaged a lot more hours than 46 per week. And billables don't include everything you aren't billing for, like department meetings, training, etc. Some weeks I'd be at work from 7 am to 9 pm and bill only 40 hours.

I decided I hated LW. Not the people-it's a really fun firm and is considered one of the more "hip" places to work. But I was seriously sick of being a slave to my job. I moved to smaller OC firm (Payne & Fears) so that I could focus more on employment law. I was lucky in that they still pay market. My billables are a minimum of 1950, but there's no real pressure to bill more than that. I find it's still hard to bill 1950 minimum. Granted, I don't work nearly as many weekends anymore as I did at LW. Also, the people at my current firm are not as fun-most everyone is married with a lot of kids. Though that does help in terms of workload, as no one wants to be here at 10 pm every night. But there ARE still nights I'm here until 10, and there are still weekends that I work, and I still have to reschedule appointments and cancel on social events thanks to my unpredictable job. It's the nature of the beast.

I also know people who work at really small law firms, make 1/2 of what the "market" rate is, and their billables are 2000 minimum (or more), and they bill 2300+ a year. It's very hard to know how the workload is unless you know someone working there who will be candid with you. Lots of firms sell themselves as "lifestyle"-MoFo, Sheppard Mullin, etc. I know associates at these firms who tell me it's definitely not a lifestyle firm.

So anyway, not sure if this really helped, but if you have a list of firms that you are interested in, feel free to either post here or email me. Oh, and by the way, the one good thing about LW is that it has a wonderful pro bono program and all pro bono hours count towards your billable hours. I actually did an entire trial my first year on a pro bono case, along with a third-year associate. It was a good experience. Most of the large firms have formal pro bono programs, but most of the mid to smaller size firms do not-one of the trade-offs.

[lawyerlee]

But there ARE still nights I'm here until 10, and there are still weekends that I work, and I still have to reschedule appointments and cancel on social events thanks to my unpredictable job. It's the nature of the beast.
That's for sure! Even if you're in a government position like I am, the hours can be ridiculous at times. But I just try to remind myself that I like having this responsibility, so I don't think I'd ever be happy trading it for a predictable work schedule. :)

[granada]

I also know people who work at really small law firms, make 1/2 of what the "market" rate is, and their billables are 2000 minimum (or more), and they bill 2300+ a year.
This is very true and something that I alluded to earlier. I recently got an offer from a smaller firm that wanted me to leave my clerkship early to go work for them. Their pay was half of what you'd get at big firms. And their billables were 2100. I couldn't believe it.

[Sara07]

Hi Everyone,

I will be starting by 3rd year in law school in the fall. My current class schedule includes some classes that will be tested on the bar and some classes that I wanted to take because I am interested in the subject area. I am starting to doubt myself though on not taking all the classes that will be tested on the bar. I am hoping to hear what others did regarding this. Did you take all the classes that would be on the bar or did you learn the subjects you didn't take through a bar exam study class. Any input would be a great help since I still have time to change my schedule. Thanks.

[kris97]

Sara Honestly, unless you're really concerned about your ability to take the bar, I would just take what you want. If you take a bar review course (which I *highly* recommend) you will learn everything you need to know for the bar. I took courses like Legal History and Feminist Theory in law school - and never took a single corporate law class, and found that the Bar Bri course I took covered everything. So I wouldn't worry about it. :) Good luck!

[Sherb]

Sara07 - My vote is to take the classes that you WANT. I took BarBri to prepare for the bar. It was ok; kinda wacky, kinda boring but hey, I passed.

There are some bar classes I took because I was scared of them - Secured Credit, Corps. I took them as a "security blanket"; I knew absolutely nothing about them, was freaked out about learning them for the first time 6 weeks before the bar, etc.

However, I also took totally un-bar classes, like comparative law. I liked those much better, had fun, and did well in them (bc I enjoyed them, I "worked" harder in them).

I hate to say this but you don't learn the stuff you need to pass the bar in law school. As I was studying for the bar, I wondered why I had just spent the last 3 years in school if BarBri could teach it to me in 2 months. Law school brainwashes, um, teaches, you how to think.

Take what you want!

[lawyergirl25]

Sara, I was in your shoes a year ago. Really, truly, take the classes you want. Anything you need to know for the bar you can get from Bar/Bri. Taking the Law & Lit and Employment Discrimination classes I was dying to take kept me engaged during my last year.

...yeah, now that the bar's over, I'm officially joining the atty thread. I start my job in four weeks and I'm a little nervous, so I'm sure I'll be asking all of you for support and advice. :)

[AttyGrl74]

Sara - my 3rd year courses were all fluffy lib classes that I enjoyed more than anything. Take what will be interesting to you.

[ADSigMel]

Tomorrow is my last day with my second job of the summer. Then I have a shorter stint for the next two weeks with a tiny firm. Then I'm going back to Vandy for 2L year. I'm getting married two weeks before finals. Am I insane? Yes. But I also have a question....if I only accept one offer for next summer from the three jobs that I am working this summer, and I stay in Nashville (rather than Birmingham, which is where I'm working this summer and where I want to live permanently) for half of next summer to do an externship with a judge or something, am I committing professional suicide? I've been told that if a firm hires you two summers in a row, you basically have to slap the senior partner to make them not offer you a permanent position. Do any of you know of anyone who worked for a firm two summers then did not get an offer from them?

~Melody

[granada]

Sara07 ~ I have strong feelings about the 3L year, and I tell them to every law student I run into. :) Like you, I was worried about the Bar, so I took several Bar classes in my third year instead of classes that would have been more interesting, and it really was a disaster. I was burned out, and I did not want to do anything my third year. By the end of the year I could not care less about any of my classes. I ended up getting my worst grades in law school during my third year. :o So now, with the benefit of hindsight, I'd say take the classes you want to take and take as many P/NP classes as you can! The law that you have to know for the Bar exam is much simpler than what you have to learn for a 15 week class. And Bar-Bri will prepare you plenty for the Bar.

[Aimee]

I only took a few Bar courses my 3L year, and that's because a.) they were required for graduation or b.) I would have been up a creek without them. I wouldn't recommend taking the Louisiana bar without taking successions and Security Devices (especially since we have our own layout for mortgages in the civil code and then we follow UCC 9 for other stuff). I found that my school labeled a lot of stuff as "bar courses" that really weren't. Like Criminal Procedure II was labeled as a bar course, but there wasn't too much that I learned in BarBri that I didn't cover in school. I think my school does that so they keep people locked into those bar classes and they don't have to offer a lot of fun or interesting electives (which they don't.)

Everything else, I took it because it fit into my schedule. I commuted about 75 miles each way for school and I only went to class M-Th because of how I worked things. I did this for my last 3 semesters of school and it was fantastic having 3 day weekends.

Best of luck - 3L year is such a breeze compared to the others. I really only did work the last few weeks of each semester and my grades were better than any other year.

[RobynScott]

I really only did work the last few weeks of each semester and my grades were better than any other year.


Haha - DITTO! Funny enough, I met my (now) DH just before the start of 3rd year and at graduation my mom gave him credit for my good grades(!) b/c they were so much better that year than any other year, *lol*

PS - I agree with all of the above. BarBri will teach you everything that you need to know - but - it is still a good idea to take some bar classes. For instance, I'm glad I took commercial paper (UCC Art 3) - but I would not have taken commercial paper and secured transactions just to prepare for the bar - kwim? CP however - had a better professor so it was a good class to take.

Most of all have fun third year - before you have to deal with the Real World full time :)

[Esq.]

You guys are going to think that I am nuts, but I didn't take: 1)Sales, 2)Corps/Bus Org/Agency and Partnership, or 3) Secured Trans/Commercial Paper. And now I practice commercial litigation!

Weird classes I did take bc they appeared on the Mi bar were: No Fault, Worker's Comp and Conflicts of Law. I did very well in all of these classes, but looking back, they bored the crap out of me and I wish I had taken something more interesting.

I multistated, soI don't know how well I did on the topics that I had to learn during review. (Although, maybe Sales was part of the multistate, bc I think they group it with contracts. But definitely the rest of the classes I didn't take were only essay topics. I can guarantee that I got a 0 on the Corps essay :))

But, if I had to go back, I still wouldn't take those classes :D I would take interesting and fun stuff.

[wander_woman]

Sara07 -- I think the whole notion of "bar classes" is ridiculous. The bar is just a memorization test, whereas law school should be about preparing you for your future career and introducing you to areas of law you may enjoy. I absolutely do not think that you should take classes you don't like just to prepare yourself for the bar. I'm not sure I took a single "bar class" the whole time I was in law school and I did fine. Take what interests you and have fun. Then study your butt off in a bar class the month before the bar exam.

ADSigMel -- I do know of several people who clerked 2 summers in a row with a firm and then did not get an offer. It's rare, but it happens. I think it depends somewhat on geography. I know that in NYC (where I went to law school & where most of my friends work), firms give almost 100% offers to 2nd year clerks and you have to screw up big time to not get an offer. In Texas, however, a lot of firms only give 50% offers to 2nd year clerks. It depends on where you're at. I would look at the firm's history of offers (this should be in the NALP book). If it's close to 100%, then you're probably fine. If it's much lower than that, you might consider taking 2 job offers for next summer.

[Sara07]

Thanks for all the wonderful feedback. There are a few required bar classes, but other than those I signed up for classes that I knew I would enjoy and hope will help when I practice. When I signed up for the classes I wanted I knew it was the best thing to do, but it helps to hear from others that it's what they did also and still passed the bar. Thanks for all the advice. :)

[RobynScott]

Finally heard about job I interviewed for at beginning of June - didn't get it (big surprise after all this time, right?) - DH heard the message on the answering machine first and was afraid to tell me. I think he was surprised by my reaction - I'm fine - but a little disappointed I guess. It sounded really interesting even though it would have probably been a lot more stressful.

I think what concerns me more is why didn't I get it? I got along well with everyone - but I think my lack of deposition experience (I have none) as an almost fifth year - really hurt me.

What bugs / worries me is that that will then affect me wherever I want to look. It was also a chance to get out of the niche area that I practice in - which does not look like it is going to happen now.

oh well - minor vent from me - but I think I had vented about not hearing, so I figured I would update.

I think I just need to try and get really excited about my current job ...

[Esq.]

I am sorry to hear that RobynScott. :( Sometimes potential employers just don't know what a rock star :D they are interviewing. But that is their stupid loss!

[RobynScott]

Sometimes potential employers just don't know what a rock star :D they are interviewing.

Thanks! I know in the end it's all good - and I should count my blessings - I am not in a situation like you are. I think the job I ahve mow is 'safe'. Not necessarily what I want to be doing, but if I get PG in a year or so (let's hope) - I think I would have the ability to gp part-time - who knows how soon I would have that ability someplace else?

Oh well - everything happens for a reason right - I am a firm believer in that - so whatever is meant to be - will be :)

Thanks for the good thoughts though :)

[RobynScott]

What's happened to the attorneys? Are we all too busy working, *lol*?

I had a good morning - had a discrete research project that was like finding a needle in a haystack - actually found the answer! and presented it well (according to one of the partners that was in the meeting) - woohoo! I shouldn't be so excited - but it's nice to have things go well - especially with my review coming up, *lol*

Hope everyone else is doing well!

Robyn

[Amuse Bouche]

I'll check in too. I'm an almost third year associate in a "biglaw" firm in LA. I say "biglaw" in quotes because it's my second job out of law school and the firm I worked for in New York was really big -- big firm, big deals, definitely big law. This is much more midcap. So far it's OK, but I'm still adjusting to the new job, PLUS I have to take the CA bar in February. Oh, and my husband's starting law school now.

[AttyGrl74]

I'm around.

Judge McWilliams (Sr. Judge 10th Cir.) drives a Honda Accord.

I found that to be very amusing when I saw him today. I'm not sure why I think it is amusing, but I do.

[Esq.]

Hey! There ain't nothin' wrong with driving a Honda! ;) :p

[Sherb]

I'm here. Work's kept me hoppin lately. Any one do immigration law? Especially VAWA self-petitions? Let me know so I can pick your brain. :D

[kris97]

I'm here, as well. While I really enjoy my job, sometimes I have to admit, I shake my head at the absolute nonsense we (people in my office) have to deal with. As in, lawyers who lie and pretend they don't realize there's a statute of limitations; lawyers who refuse to take your calls and pass you off to a paralegal; pro se prisoners who move for a preliminary injunction because they think someone dumped their breakfast cereal... I never want to use the federal government card (as in, maybe you should take us seriously), but really, it would be so nice to come across an adversary who is (a) sane; (b) ethical; and (c) competent! /rant

Sherb I actually do a bit of immigration work (asylum cases), but I'm on the government side, so I don't know if you'd want my help. ;)

[Sherb]

My client is pretty deportation proof. I'm just trying to navigate the mass of paperwork required to make her permanent.

[Aimee]

Hi everyone - I'm a few weeks post-bar exam and am waiting for results and applying for jobs. I thought I had something lined up, but the attorney decided he wanted a clerk in law school, rather than someone waiting for bar results (despite lying to me and saying that I could come back after the bar exam...)

Anyway, I saw a posting for a job in my area. The market is super-tight around here, especially for first year associates, so I was excited to see something.

My question is this: The posting asks for top 25%. I'm not top 25%. I'm in the middle of the class. My instinct is to apply anyway, and just not put my GPA/Rank on my resume and hope that the 25% figure is more of a wish than a concrete requirement. Should I do this? Or should I just let this one pass by? To complicate the matter, I saw this posting on the career services website of another local school, because my school's career services is so poor, they don't keep a bank of job opportunities. They do very limited OCI, but it's mostly for the top 10-15%. Otherwise, you're on your own. The posting indicated that the firm is alumni of this other school. So will I be automatically disqualified because I'm not from this school?

Any suggestions, advice, whatever would be appreciated. I just don't want to waste anyone's time and embarass myself by applying for a job which I have no hope of getting. Thanks!

[Amuse Bouche]

Aimee, you should absolutely apply. Pretty much every job posting out there asks for top 25%/national school, etc. Make sure your resume has some "wow" factors aside from your schooling -- leadership positions you held during law school, clinics or other real work experience, and prepare a cover letter that explains why YOU are the best person for the job (I wouldn't mention the rank in the cover letter at all -- just play up your strengths.) Submit a resume and a transcript and follow up a few weeks later.

It never hurts to apply.

[Sherb]

Ahhhh, the internet ate my post.

Aimee - apply you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Screw the GPA. And I totally agree with Amuse Bouche's post

[Lauren]

Just checking in. Things are good here, and I'm actually not very busy this week. I was contacted by a legal recruiter a few days ago, which surprised me because I'm only a first-year, but hey. I'm happy where I am now, but the guy sent me his info anyway and promised to call me if anything really compelling came up. I wouldn't jump to another firm at this point, but if a good in-house opportunity came up, I'd have to give it some thought. Of course, I'm still so junior that it's all just wishful thinking at this point. ;)

Aimee - You should definitely apply! I think the GPA requirements tend to be flexible, and if you can wow them otherwise, you have a great shot at getting the job. Go for it!

Sherb - I do a little pro bono immigration law, but unfortuntely I've only dealt with VAWA on an academic (read: not really practical) level. Are you applying for U-visa?

[RobynScott]

Aimee - I agree apply - you have nothing to lose. However - I would keep your GPA on your resume - sometimes without a GPA people think it must be really bad (ie - imagine it to be worse than it is) and won't even consider you. I would consider leaving it on there so it doesn't look like you are trying to hide anything.

Just my $0.02.

[Sherb]

I've considered filing for a U visa also but am thinking it might be a tad bit of overkill.

[Aimee]

Thanks for the input, y'all. The GPA matter is murky because my school is a notorious down-grader. The top GPA in the class was a 3.3 or 3.4. Most schools have grade inflation, we have grade deflation, which makes us look really stupid compared to other applicants. At the interview for my last job, I spent 10 minutes trying to explain our grading scale because things are so screwy. We grade on a quality point scale, so rather than getting a B+, our grades range from a 4.0 to a .7. If you're not familiar with the ranges of what is a B or a C reading the transcrip can be pretty difficult.

Have I ever mentioned that I hate my law school ;)

Anyway, thanks again for the advice. I'm going to start putting my application packet together!

[Lauren]

As I understand it, since there aren't any regs for the U-visa yet, they're just granting deferrals, which would allow her to remain in the country temporarily. But, since your client is already here legally, it sounds like that that won't be a necessary step for her.

[Amuse Bouche]

Aimee, you will probably need to submit a transcript with your resume anyway. At the bottom of my law school transcript (an unofficial one) I have a little blurb that talks about how grades are distributed through the class, ie, less than 4% graduate with an Aminus or better average. Talk to your school's career services office to see if there is any info like that you can include that should reflect the deflation.

[Esq.]

The GPA matter is murky because my school is a notorious down-grader. The top GPA in the class was a 3.3 or 3.4. Most schools have grade inflation, we have grade deflation, which makes us look really stupid compared to other applicants.

Aimee, my school was the same way (darn Catholic schools...at least mine anyway). When we fought to have our grades inflated on par with other schools in the area (read: U of M), they actually had the Dean draft a letter for us to take to interviews explaining why our grades were so low compared to other schools, why they refused to inflate grades as a moral and ethical matter, with the whole grade scale explanation attached. Yeah, right. I am really going to take that to an interview with me. We were all so pissed.

Oh, and our grade scale went from 4.0 to .6 for some reason, with our average being 2.6. The highest GPA in our class was a 3.5...in fact I have the whole list of rankings somewhere. I would be interested to see how many broke 3.0. I just barely made it past 3.0.

[justcbk]

we fought to have our grades inflated on par with other schools in the area (read: U of M)

do you mean university of michigan?? as a graduate of that law school, i have to say, i didn't experience much grade inflation. there was a set curve in all classes (not just first year courses) and they were very strict about enforcing it and making sure that it kept the average grade in a class pretty low.

i'm not saying you're wrong or anything - it is just interesting to see an outside perspective on how u of m approached grades.

[Esq.]

justcbk interesting! What was the curve set at, do you know?

[Aimee]

My school (Louisiana State) didn't have a set curve. There were no guidelines for the teachers at all - they just graded how they felt. My freshman torts teacher, for example, didn't give a grade any higher than a 3.5. There were some teachers where you would have had to take the final drunk to get lower than a 3.0. There was no consistency, but the low graders were more common than the high graders. Except for a few people, there were no As at all. Compared to Tulane and Loyola New Orleans, the other 2 major law schools in the state, our grades are really low. But LSU always had the "look to your left,look to your right" mentality so they dont' really care.

I took Bar/Bri at Tulane and when one of the lecturers was talking about how before we studied to get As, and now we're just studying to pass, all the LSU kids in the room busted out laughing. Because we all just studied to pass. I know it has something to do with the money factor. LSU is incredibly cheap (8K a year, in state). If they flunk you out, there are many people waiting to take your space. But, for 30K+ a year at Tulane, you'd expect to be treated a bit better.

Here's hoping I get a job soon, so I can stop having to worry about the GPA issue.

[RobynScott]

Any word on how Aimee made out with the hurricane? Aimee - hope you and your family are doing ok! Thinking of you - let us know whenever you get a chance.

[linekelei]

Hi ladies-I could really use your input. I currently work at a law firm, but recently received an offer for an in-house position. The base salary of the in-house job is less than I'd like it to be (it's a pretty significant pay cut from my current firm salary, though we could survive on it). I'd like to negotiate about $7500 to $10000 more in yearly salary, as well as a few more days of vacation (they only give 2 weeks paid-my firm currently gives 3 weeks paid). The General Counsel who gave me the offer didn't mention anything about the salary being negotiable, but I've heard it's common practice to negotiate salary. Is it proper to come back with something like, "I'd really love to take the job, but I'm wondering if X company would pay me $_____ year in base salary, as well as giving me 12 days of vacation, rather than the standard 10?" Or is that out of line? And if not, how much above what I really want to be paid should I ask for without sounding ridiculous? And is it possible the offer would be rescinded if I tried to negotiate? Because I will probably take the job even if they won't negotiate, but it sure would make things better if I made a bit more and had the extra vacation days.

Any input is appreciated. Law firms just pay everyone the same, so there's never been any negotiation on my part. I just want to make sure I'm playing the game right, but that I'm also getting a fair salary. Thank you!

[lawyergirl25]

(linekelei, I wish I had info to share, but since I'm so new to the profession I have no advice to offer. I wanted to wish you luck on your negotiations, though, and congratulate you on your new job!)

Well, I start my job on Wednesday and I'm a little nervous. It just feels very surreal to me and I don't know if what I'm going through is normal. My firm called yesterday to go over office and secretarial assignments and the whole time I was thinking "This is so weird - I feel like I'm playing Lawyer. I hope they don't figure out that I'm just a kid!"

I'm worried about a number of things: that I won't get along with my co-workers or they won't like working with me (I didn't summer there), that they won't like my work product, that I won't be able to do the job they ask of me, that I won't look professional enough, etc. Granted, I go through this with every new job and it always works itself out. But this is the first time I've gone into a job not thinking it's just temporary - this is a career now, not a summer job.

Is this normal? Did any of you feel like this? What are some good strategies to make sure that I start off at my firm on the right foot?

[Esq.]

linekelei- I wish I had some insight/advice to offer. I, too, am too new to really know what you should do in that position. I don't even have an opinion on it, that is how uninformed I am! And I almost always have an opinion! :)

lawyergirl25- how you are feeling is totally normal. I felt that way, and still do, since I have been working at my 'real' job only five months. I am starting to adapt to the label 'attorney', but other than that, I have all the same fears. All I can tell you to do, is be your best, nicest self, and people will like you. Once you have allies, things get easier. And develop some thick skin right away, bc you are not going to like some of things that are said. Most lawyers have a perfectionistic streak...and as a newbie, you are not going to know how to do anything that you are asked to do, a lot of the time no one is around to help you and you have to figure it out yourself, and you will mess something up...which is quite offensive to the perfectionistic streak :) You have to learn to accept that you will not do much "right" at first, and just do your best to suck up all the info that you can.

Have a way to put all the stuff you are learning on paper, and an organizational system for it. That took me a while to figure out. So, for example, if you are asked to draft something that you have never drafted before, and then the partners dissappear on you...not to be found for help/advice, the first step is find a good admin who will find a sample for you (the same type of motion/brief/summary, etc. drafted by someone else, that you can use as a guide). Use that to draft your version, and then store it somewhere, labelled with a name, so that you don't have to repeat this process in the future, when you possibly need to draft the same thing again.

I know it seems simple, but it took about a week to gather enough wits to think of this. I think I was in shock when I started, and wasn't thinking very clearly.

Question for everyone:
Speaking of examples, has anyone drafted interrogatories in a trademark/tradedress misapporopriation/conspiracy/breach of k (by hacking into a priviate intranet database, and stealing information needed to mimic the tradedress and trademark)/tortious interference with contracts and expectations case? Only one set has been sent on by our side, meanwhile opposing counsel is drafting his fifth as I type this. It is time for me to paper him back. But this is a really tough case for a newbie like me to draft rogs for. We have not had a case like this in our office, so I have nothing to work off of.

[Sherb]

Have any of our Louisiana lawyers checked in?

A story that I heard yesterday:

According to a person who graded a portion of the LA bar exam, all papers and grades were due into the LA Bar offices last week. So, unless someone got them out of the office, they are now under water. :eek: :eek: :eek: Who knows how long it would take to recover them, if they could be recovered. Can you imagine taking the bar again because the bar office lost your paperwork?!!! Nightmare. Along with the other nightmares that are going on down there right now.

[lawyergirl25]

I had heard that, Sherb, and immediately thought of Aimee, who took the LA bar in July. I hope it isn't true!

Thanks for the advice, Krysten. I definitely need to get organized as soon as I start and I think having samples around will help a lot. I'm a little more worried about the interpersonal aspect. Even though I am fairly confident that my skills are where they should be, I get really nervous. Last summer, I had all these same feelings, so I tried to fake it for awhile. I thought I was projecting confidence, but a few of the attys just thought I was arrogant. Obviously I want to avoid that label! So I'm trying to go for self-confidence while letting others know that I realize that I'm still learning and I'm open to constructive criticism. I'm finding that balance difficult.

This is a weird thing for me to be discussing all this. I'm generally very tight-lipped about my insecurities, so this is a little uncomfortable. :)

[RobynScott]

Anybody else hate timesheets? UGH - I am in the middle of H-E-L-L now and it's my own fault! I wanted to get out of here early but I can't leave until I am done - and I am only up to 8/9!


I had some stuff written for every day - but not what I need. I've been working on this since this morning- blowing a whole day - and it's back to the grind again now!

[Amuse Bouche]

I hear you Robyn. My last job did monthly timesheets and my secretary was useless. At my current jobs, time is due every WEEK -- and you're fined if it's not in on time. It's a lot easier to keep it current and accurate.

[Esq.]

At first I handed mine off to the office manager, and she did them for me. Then I learned how to pur my time in myself, but also quickly learned that it is easier to write it down, and input it once a week. Yesterday I was crunched for time and had my secretary do it...which was nice. I think I may continue to have her input it once a week. It certainly saves me a lot of time.

[lawyergirl25]

Well, I started Wednesday, although today is my first full day in our office (I was in another office for training the other two days). I know it's only the first day, but I love it so far. I was still freaked out even after Kyrsten words of encouragement, but I went to dinner with my advisor last night and she made me feel SO MUCH better. At the end of dinner, she told me she just knew I was going to be a great fit for the firm and she can't wait to work with me. It felt so good because I had been doubting myself a bit.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know I'm here, I'm happy, and best of all, I get to be on CC during the day! Yay!

[Esq.]

That is awesome lawyergirl25! I am so happy that she was able to help you get over your fears :)

[pickle]

Sherb, I heard the same thing about the LA bar, but I also heard that they might just pass everyone who took the exam since there might be no way to recover all the exams. At least there would be one silver lining for the attorneys down there!

[lawyergirl25]

HapaGirl, in my experience, it's more like 5-7 days. But I think it varies according to your market.

[linekelei]

Hapa-It took about a week or 10 days for me to first start hearing from firms-then they all came pouring in. Don't worry-many of the interviewers are going from school to school to interview, and trying to manage their workload on top of it, and just haven't had time to sit down with the hiring committee and recommend call backs.

[Aimee]

Checking in and giving an update on the Louisiana Bar Exam...

They're telling us that they're having "great success" in tracking down most of the bar exam papers. The early rumors going around were that some of the exams were in the Supreme Court building in NOLA and that it had flooded and been looted. I'm not sure if that's true, but I'm honestly not sure if what the Bar Committee is saying is entirely true either. I think it's somewhere in the middle.

Someone from my class emailed someone with the Bar Committee and got an answer that was rather cryptic - something about there being a meeting and a mention of February - nobody knows what they meant - we're hoping it doesn't mean that they'll make us all take it again in Feb. I keep praying that they'll just pass everyone, but I seriously doubt that'll happen.

As for now, I'm unemployed and just trying to help my family get it all back together. DH and I didn't sustain any major damage, although he's currently commuting 3 hours to work each way because his office got damaged (tree in the roof of the 3rd floor broke a sprinkler main and soaked everything on the first floor, where his office was located.) My mom's house fared okay, but our rental house has a tree diagonally across the second floor. My grandmother had 4 feet of water in her house - right now, she's staying with my mom as we begin the process of renovating her house. It's so sad, to lose it all at 82 - I'd much rather it have been me, I'm younger, at least. Between being with her, helping my mom get her house back togehter (if you've ever evacuated, you know that you come home to a mess from the packing, unpacking, living without power, etc), spending time with my cousins who are out of school for another months, I'm pretty busy. I'd be looking for a job, but, well, there aren't really any to speak of. It's crappy, but I can't really do anything about it right now.

Thanks for thinking of me - this whole ordeal has been difficult, although I truly am one of the lucky ones in all this.

[kris97]

just wanted to bump us up and see how everyone is doing. aimee i hope things are going well - my thoughts are with you.

things here are good, except that i've been working much longer hours this month. the first few weeks of september, i went like 15 days without a day off. i don't know how you guys in the big firms (or employers with similarly crazy hours) can do it. though at least it makes me appreciate every weekend i don't have to come in and write briefs. :) it would be so much easier if i could see a light at the end of the tunnel, but so far the tunnel stretches until at least november. *sigh*

how is everyone else doing?

[AttyGrl74]

We're getting geared up for the new Bankrutpcy Laws going into effect on October 17. It has been nuts trying to figure out all the new procedures and we don't even deal with 98% of the new law!

Our cases have been up about 175% from last year and the lower local Bankruptcy court has been up about 45% each month.

It is nuts.

[ADSigMel]

Did anyone else just see what I think was the flagrant malpractice just committed on that new law show "Just Legal"? I mean honestly, who here thinks it's okay to give your law school friend (who happens to be adverse counsel) extremely damaging information about your client just because it happens to be useful to the other side? :mad:

(And he pronounced res ipsa loquitur wrong, too!)

[Aimee]

Just got the results, y'all - I passed!!!! I'll get sworn in on Oct 28.

[Esq.]

Congrats Aimee! What did the state end up doing about lost exams?

[Aimee]

Congrats Aimee! What did the state end up doing about lost exams?

Thanks!

Honestly, I don't know how they handled it for most of the exams. There's a small section on the website listing some people whose missing exams were the deciding factor between them passing and them conditioning. Those people have to take that portion of the exam, Civil Code I, which encompasses Persons and Property, over again in about 2 weeks. There'll be a separate swearing-in ceremony for those who pass that portion of the exam the second time around.

Not exactly fair, if you ask me, but apparently the supreme court didn't want my opinon on it.

[lawyergirl25]

Congrats Aimee - I was hoping to hear good news from you today! :)

[AttyGrl74]

Kickazz Aimee!

[Sherb]

WooHOO! Congrats Aimee!

[Jeff]

Congratulations Aimee! :)

[lawyergirl25]

Are you interviewing for summer positions or permanent positions?

[mrsfromage]

Jetsette, my MIL has a saying that if you really listen to what people are saying, they will tell you the truth ... i.e. most people at law firms may give you positive spin, but if you just listen carefully, you may hear more than is intended :).

You know, I'd ask about the culture, what a typical day is like, the best and worst parts about the job, the billable hours total for the year, if they find the work challenging, if you can choose what kind of work you do, stuff like that.

Good luck! You might try to find some alums who work at these places too who may give you a more honest take.

[lawyergirl25]

If I've already got the offer, I may ask about these things (may be more important to me than to you):
-Weekend face-time
-Whether everyone socializes outside the office or just goes home at the end of the day
-How they ensure that I get a variety of opportunities (i.e. are you going to lock me up in the office doing research memos all the time?)
-Whether the billable req't is firm or if there's a "whisper" number
-Bonus structure
-Attrition rate

Glad to hear you have a number of offers to choose from! Good luck in making your decision. :)

[kimbyj]

I have a friend who will be graduating law school next year. Unfortunately she is in a bad situation financially and is thinking about declaring bankruptcy. She asked me if that would affect her bar application. I know that the bar in her state asks about that on their application but I don't know if that is a reason they would deny her bar membership. Any thoughts?

[lawyerlee]

I have a friend who will be graduating law school next year. Unfortunately she is in a bad situation financially and is thinking about declaring bankruptcy. She asked me if that would affect her bar application. I know that the bar in her state asks about that on their application but I don't know if that is a reason they would deny her bar membership. Any thoughts?
It very well may cause her problems, particularly because it would be so close to the time she applied for the bar. Fiscal responsibility is something they consider as a part of overall personal integrity, so it is something that would give them pause. The best thing for her to do would probably be to talk to people in the bar examiners office.

[kimbyj]

It very well may cause her problems, particularly because it would be so close to the time she applied for the bar. Fiscal responsibility is something they consider as a part of overall personal integrity, so it is something that would give them pause. The best thing for her to do would probably be to talk to people in the bar examiners office.


Thanks for your response. Yeah - that's what I said. I graduated from school so long ago that I am sure everything has changed by now.

Anyone else have any ideas?

[lawyergirl25]

I think Diana's got it right. I just graduated in May, so I've done the character/fitness stuff pretty recently. They had some issues with things on my financial record from 5 years ago, and it wasn't anything as dire as bankruptcy. I had to run around a bit getting documents to show that everything had been taken care of, affidavits declaring the accounts were paid off, etc. I don't know that I was ever in danger of having my application denied, but I was pretty scared. So, yes, it can affect her bar application and yes, she will need to explain it all at some point.

I also think she should call the bar office. My character/fitness review was conducted by my local bar association office, but I don't know that that's true in every state.

Oh, had another thought. In Ohio there are two application - one to be a candidate to the bar and another to take the exam itself. The first one is where most of the character/fitness stuff is relevant, and in Ohio you can file that in your second year of law school so that it's taken care of ASAP. If there's some sort of early application process in your friend's state, she might want to look into getting the ball rolling so that she can she what she's up against, if anything.

[kris97]

It will particularly be a concern if your friend ever wants to work for the government. At least for the feds, you need to certify that you've never been delinquent on any debt, including student loans, and the wrong answer can make it very hard for you to get a job.

[Lauren]

Hi all! Just checking in...

Things have been crazy at work for me lately, to the point that I'm seriously considering getting out of big firm life sooner rather than later. I don't know if it's just corporate work, or just part of being a junior associate, or what, but I have no life outside of work, and I'm not finding work particularly fulfilling, which is really frustrating.

I think I will probably put my resume out there, and apply for a few "dream jobs" and see what happens. I'm not ready to start seriously hitting the streets yet, but we'll see how I feel after the beginning of the year.

So, I have questions for all of you... For those of you who work in big firms, what do you do to make it more manageable? Does it get better after a couple of years? For those of you who *don't* work in big firms, what do you do, and how do you like it? How did you end up where you are?

Thanks in advance. :)

[Amuse Bouche]

Lauren -- your first year at a big firm just sucks. It just does. I was miserable during my first year, and pretty depressed (as in clinical depression, not just pissed off I was working all the time). It did get better -- I got a lot better about managing my work flow so that I wasn't slammed all the time, and when I was slammed, I was able to cope better, in part because I had SOME clue what I was doing, which I totally didn't as a first year. I can also tell you that if you can stick it out for two years in one place, it's easier to get a job - you can try to lateral to another firm that's a little more life friendly for a couple of years, and then try to go in house or move to an actual small firm. I'm on my second job out of law school now, and while I still work a lot, and I'm still at a big firm, it seems a lot more manageable. I usually have some competence in the type of deal I'm working on (which helps enormously with coping), and although I do work late, I usually get weekends off, and I can have SOME semblance of a life.

Other things I do is get rid of the guilt. I take the vacations, I take days off when I'm sick. I try to work from home in the evenings when I have to work, so at least I get to eat dinner with my husband. I turn off my blackberry at 10 pm every night and it doesn't turn on until 8 am the next morning. It doesn't turn on at all on weekends unless I turn it on because I'm expecting something. I can't sustain a crazy pace, and if I'm working on something that I have some control over, I do what I can and realize that most deadlines have some wiggle room (especially in corporate law). I try to leave the office in the middle of the day if only to take a walk.

In other words, it sucks, but try to stick it out, for at least a little while, and your career will thank you. Email me if you want to ask any specific questions, or you just want to complain to someone who's been there (I used to hate it when I'd tell my mom I was miserable, and she'd say "Well, jobs are hard" and she just didn't GET how miserable it really was.)

I have a question for all of you -- I have to take the Bar Exam in February (I'm not admitted in the state I recently moved to), and I'm going to sign up for Barbri. I can't take Live, since it's during the morning, and I'm working, but I can't figure out whether it would be better to do the video classes or the tapes. Any ideas? Anyone studied for the bar while working? Anyone done the tapes at all?

[lawyergirl25]

I'm happy to hear there's light at the end of the tunnel. I've only been at my job for a month and a half and I just feel so overwhelmed at times. I've worked 11 days straight now and the last week has been CRAZY. You know what's strange? It's all criminal stuff too, which my firm traditionally does not do, but we've gotten a few high-profile cases that have heated up recently. Don't get me wrong, I love the work that I'm doing - it's *so* interesting - and I love my co-workers.

BUT...between getting used to working all the time (because to me, this is a completely different ball game from summering and clerkships), getting used to a new firm and new co-workers, not having much of a clue of what I'm doing and taking a long time just to understand what's going on in these cases, and being away from DH (who's still in our old city 2-1/2 hours away), I get a little crazed at times. I'm sure it'll get better, though. At least that's what I tell myself when I get frustrated. :)

I think in a few months, I won't think twice about working so much...I don't know if that's a good thing or not.

Oh, and bar results come out tomorrow morning. So I'm a little anxious all around. :)

[Aimee]

Sending good vibes your way, lawergirl25. The wait was excruciating, I was in your shoes two weeks ago. I had to take NyQuil to get to sleep the night before!

Anyway, I've got a question for y'all. I don't have a job yet. I'm looking in the newspaper, monster.com, etc, but all the listings want 2-5 years of experience. So, how do I get those first two years?

I should explain that things at my school don't work like they did at every other school. OCI was for the top 10-25%. If you didn't qualify to apply for the OCI, you were on your own. They don't even really get listings for jobs for the rest of us. So having a traditional summer clerkship that led to a job offer was kind of rare for a lot of us. In fact, since we have a summer semester that we have to take, the summer opportunities for 1Ls are very small. Maybe 15-20 people out of 200 get jobs through the school.

I worked at a small firm for a little over a year. I was miserable there, the work was more clerical than legal, the secretaries were snarky with me (I think it's because I was young and an educated female - the only other female attorney was well in her 30s) and they were crowded so I knew there would be no job offer. So, I took a little time off to not work, then started working at another super-small firm. I did stuff mostly via email, which was fine. The guy told me I could have my job as a clerk, but later rescinded that offer. It was never going to be a permanent position, so it was only 2 months of work that I missed out on. In the wash, no biggie.

Any suggestions for where else I should look? Thanks!

[lawyergirl25]

Thanks Aimee. :) DH is driving in tonight so he'll be here at 7 a.m. when the results are posted. I have a feeling I will have a hard time sleeping tonight, but I plan to use the Amaretto Sour method rather than NyQuil. ;)

[RobynScott]

Aimee - check out lawcrossing.com - they pull job openings from all over the place. It's $19.99/month - but they really pull everything together. Of course, I don't know how the listings are for Lousiana - but it's wortha try. Also, don't be scared off by the experience requirements - it can't hurt to try. The worst they will say is no :)

As far as firm life - I definitely agree it gets easier. Now that we've passed September, I'm officially a 5th year - eek! Things have gotten a lot better for me in the last ten months - and I've gotten a lot more confidence - definitely felt a change.

Had a review last week that went really well - which was nice - snarky e-mail from my boss this morning - not as nice :)

I'm lucky b/c even though I'm at a relatively big (but not mega) firm - there definitely is a quality of life. I was here till 9:30 last night (and possibly tonight if I don't get off this site!) - but that is the exception rather than the norm. Definitely an ability to have a life outside of this place which is nice.

Of course, we are really busy right now and I like that too. Now if only I would go write my brief that my boss needs to see tomorrow!

PS - I think all work has its ups and downs. If you go back thorugh this thread, about 5 months ago I was miserable and looking for another job. Now I am really enjoying what I am doing. Part of that definitely comes from my confidence level - and part is just from some things improving around here (which may have come from the increased confidence - who knows!)

[RobynScott]

Aimee - just checked lawcrossing for LA - 2 openings in Metairie with the Coast Guard, in Metairie - Guillory, Scott & Associates (1 year experience), Faulk & Foster Real Estate Inc, Berniard & Berniard (ad says seeking an attorney to work in a New Orleans firm - no other info), staff attorney for Louisiana Workers' Compensation Board, O'Bryon & Schnabel in New Orleans says they have positions for new grads in the top 20% (even if you're not I'd still apply!) - but that one was posted 8/28/05 so who knows current status.

Anyway - hope that helps and gives you some ideas - might be worth it to join lawcrossing.com to keep up to date on ads.

Good luck with the search - I'm sure you'll find something, especially now that you have passed the bar.

[kris97]

Aimee- the website I would suggest is www.emplawyernet.com. There are a ton of legal jobs there. It's a subscription service, but relatively inexpensive (I think 15$ a month or so?) I didn't get my current job from there, but applied to a few that were listed.

Lauren - I know we've kind of talked about the job situation on LJ, but I wanted to send some more support. I've probably mentioned how unbelievably difficult a time I had at my current job when I first started. Despite the fact that it was a dream for me to be employed here, I was so miserable I nearly quit. Now, a week away from my one year anniversary, I love it. I work insane hours sometimes, but I love the people, the office, and the work I do. The biggest reason for my complete turnaround was (1) realizing that I was hired for a reason, that I am competent, and my judgment is apt to be just as good as everyone else's ; and (2) most importantly, that there is a limit to what I can do, and if the work exceeds that, I'm not going to beat myself up over it. If there's a typo in one of the eight briefs I've filed in the past two months? So be it. The fact that I filed them at all -- and that they are comprehensible -- is an accomplishment.
I hope that helps. :)

[Aimee]

Thanks Aimee. :) DH is driving in tonight so he'll be here at 7 a.m. when the results are posted. I have a feeling I will have a hard time sleeping tonight, but I plan to use the Amaretto Sour method rather than NyQuil. ;)

Wow, they give y'all an actual time?! We were told "after 9am" and that's all. I think they were posted around 1pm or so. I spent the entire morning refreshing the website over and over and over. It said "February" for so long that I didn't think I was seeing correctly when it said "July 2005 results" I'm such a supersitious nerd that I chcekd the "Fail" and "Condition" lists first, but still had to see my name on the "Pass" list to believe it was real.

Good to hear your DH will be there. Mine randomly had the day off from work and my mom (also an attorney) took the morning off to wait with me. It helps to have support, no matter what the results.

Thanks for the lawcrossing suggestion. I'd seen the site before, but I wasn't sure how legit it was. Things are still a little, okay, a lot crazy here post-K, so it's hard to know which firms are still hiring and which ones aren't. I was never part of the New Orleans scene; I worked in the 'burbs. I'm also going to check out emplaywernet.com.

I'm thinking that in a few months the insurance lawsuits will be going like crazy, and then firms will be hiring. So it may just be a waiting game.

Thanks for all the suggestions. If anyone has any others, I'd love to hear them.

[Lauren]

Amuse_Bouche, thanks so much for your candid advice. It really helps to hear from someone who's been there. I am honestly going to try to stick it out for another year, and maybe more depending on how it goes, because I know it will be better for my career. But, sometimes it just gets so bad that it helps to know you have options and feel like you're actually doing something, ya know? I know you do. ;)

Do you really turn your blackberry off *all* weekend sometimes?? I don't know if I could get away with that. *Sigh* I wish I could, though -- I know it would be good for my sanity. I have a classic love/hate relationship with my Treo.

lawyergirl25 - I have everything crossed for you! I know this is such a stressful time... Good luck!

Kris - I definitely share that hyper-perfectionist instinct... I really need to learn to let that go, as it just isn't good for my health in this profession. I mean, you *have* to get the big stuff right, but typos can be overlooked. I'm glad you've gotten to a much better place at your job -- I'm hoping I can do the same! I think so much of my recent angst has to do with the people I've been working with (I know you've already heard a lot about that ;)), so I'm hopeful that moving away and working with other people might solve at least part of the problem.

[lawyerlee]

I'm thinking good thoughts for you, Melinda. :) Thank goodness the waiting is finally almost over!

Try to hang in there, Lauren. I know things have been really, really sucky at your job, but I have to think they will get better when the next crop of newbies starts. It is always hard to be the newest group, and I think they really try to put it on you during that first year.

I do think you need to try to give yourself a life outside the office (as much as possible). Do you think you ever allow yourself to be in contact with the office when you really don't need to be? If so, make a committment to yourself to be out of touch a little more and do things for yourself, like cooking, running, entertaining, or shopping. :)

I think you probably know everything about my job since we're journal buddies, but I would definitely say that government work is the way to go if you want stability and regular hours. Just so everyone knows, I am an attorney for the Kansas Legislature, and my title is Assistant Revisor of Statutes. We are in session from January through May, and our interim committees meet the rest of the year (usually about July - December). We have a nice slower time in June and July, but keep plenty busy the rest of the year. My hours are predictable when we're not in session, for the most part, and then we work really hard and crazy during the legislative session. I love my work, being part of the legislative process, and working with the legislators, but I don't like some of the people in my office, unfortunately.

[Amuse Bouche]

Lauren, trust me, I've been there. I worked on a deal the December after I began working (at the end of September) where I billed something like 400 hours in one month. I had NO days off between Thanksgiving and Christmas, and I was pulling all nighters ALL the time. I was looking for any way out I could. But I started being more proactive about getting assignments with people I wanted to work with (and always try to work for partners and senior associates who are married and have kids, because they don't want to work weekends either), which made me more able to be a little choosy about the type of work I did, which made the hours more bearable.

[Lauren]

Hey Diana! We've already had a pretty good number of new first-years start over the past few weeks, and it does seem to be helping, so that's good. :) It's been much better for the last week or so, mainly just due to the deal from hell getting put on hold. But it will come back someday. *shudder* Eh. I'm trying to enjoy the good, somewhat slow days while I have them!

Amuse Bouche - Wow, that really sucks. :( I've had my share of crazy months and horrible deals over the past year, but nothing quite that bad, thank goodness. Great advice about being proactive to get assignments with people you want to work with -- thanks!

[mrsfromage]

Hey Lauren, I sent you a private message.

Amusebouche, I really think I would have quit. Or had a nervous breakdown!

[lawyergirl25]

I passed!!!!

[Esq.]

congratulations lawyergirl! that is awesome!

[Aimee]

Congratulations!!!!

[Sherb]

Congratulations!! WOOHOO!

[lawyergirl25]

Thanks guys. I'm having a hard time concentrating at work today. I think the other first-year and I are going to take off around 2 for a celebratory lunch...and just not come back. :) (I would feel bad about that, but we're doing it at our advisors' suggestions! It's okay!)

[Lauren]

Congrats lawyergirl25!! Definitely leave early today -- I know from experience that you'll never be able to concentrate today! And have a few cocktails at lunch to celebrate -- you deserve it! ;)

mrsfromage - Got your PM and replied (I hope I did it right, since I'm new to the whole PM thing ;)). I swear, my DH might break my Treo on purpose one of these days. Sometimes I hate it too! :p I will have to try to put my sanity first a little more often -- it's just hard to know what you can get away with, KWIM?

Amuse Bouche - I just wanted to let you know, I took your advice and contacted a couple of people I've enjoyed working with in the past to let them know I'm available now, so we'll see what comes of that. :)

[AttyGrl74]

CONGRATS LAWYERGIRL!

I can totally remember that whole feeling of relief!

[Amuse Bouche]

CONGRATULATIONS, Lawyergirl!


Can I just vent a bit? I generally like my job (though I always say I'd prefer to do it less often) and they're great about giving me challenging and interesting work (like I just got to draft all the documents for a venture capital deal), but I've been given a total crap assignment because it needs to get done and we just don't have enough paralegals. It's filing fictitious business name statements in a bunch of states and counties, and while I'll do it, I wish the associate who gave me the assignment would stop pretending it's a "learning opportunity." It's not a learning opportunity any more than filling out my tax forms is. It's just a PITA job and someone's got to do it. Grrr.

[lawyerlee]

Thanks guys. I'm having a hard time concentrating at work today. I think the other first-year and I are going to take off around 2 for a celebratory lunch...and just not come back. :) (I would feel bad about that, but we're doing it at our advisors' suggestions! It's okay!)
CONGRATULATIONS!!! :D :D :D

Definitely leave early to celebrate. You've earned it! :)

[philnikki]

I am also going to post this in the HR thread. I just want to see what you guys think about this...

I just had a baby on 8.23.05. For whatever reason, I was unable to see my OB until I was 7 weeks pp, not the typical 6 weeks. My company's short term disability policy states explicitly that Short Term Diasability Benefits will be paid up until a doctor releases you back to work. My HR Director is telling me now that I should have returned to work after my 6 weeks was up, prior to my doctors exam. :mad:

First, does this even sound legal that I would be required to return to work prior to an exam by my doctor???

Secondly, I found out that the policies manual that we are all required to sign when we start (that stated that I should be paid until I was released) is a software generated manual and that all specific policies are up to the HR Director's discretion. I would think that when I agree to work for a company and they make me sign a manual stating that I agree to the policies and procedures laid out in the manaul, and then they tell me that those policies and procedures don't matter, that whatever the HR Director says goes, that seems to be a problem with me.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. I know that I am probably just stuck, but I want to know for audit purposes (I happen to be this company's internal auditor as well).

Thanks!!

[Sherb]

That thunking you hear is just me hitting my head against my desk.

How do you explain to clients that you just can't waive a magic wand and make the world work the way your clients want it to just because you are a lawyer. And if you are not even divorced yet, do not think about complaining that you will have to wait 60 days after your divorce is final to remarry. Now is not the time.

[Lauren]

Sherb - You didn't get your magic wand when you passed the bar? Maybe they forgot to issue it to you. :p

Clients are fun. :rolleyes:

[Esq.]

philnikki- according to the Rules of Professional Conduct, attorneys are not able to give legal advice via the internet. I am sorry. Many lawyers give free consultations. You could look in your local phone book to find those who will give free consultation, or for a legal clinic.

[Esq.]

Hey- anyone know what RPC I could base a brief in support of a motion to compel on in this situation:

former partner of firm, under a non compete, forwarding paperwork along with a letter with legal advise in it to clients of the former firm. She is getting the paperwork bc the US Dept of Labor has her name as the atty of record (instead of the firm). The MTC is to make her contact the Dept of Labor, and change the name and address of the atty of record to her former firm.

I can't find anything about transfer of files...which is where I would think a rule preventing her from doing this might be. COnflict of interest touches on it, but it is not a conflict of interest.

Any ideas?

[RobynScott]

4 am and I'm doing work (or trying to) - remind me why we do this again :)

oh well - there is an end in sight - December!

[Esq.]

are you prepping for trial?

[RobynScott]

are you prepping for trial?

Not trial, but close - arbitration. I was working on our brief. I actually slept from 11 -2:20 - worked till just before 5, and then slept some more - left for work around 7:45.

bwahahaha! My portion of the brief isn't even that big so I shouldn't complain!

[Esq.]

I have to start a statement of facts for a very complicated trademark misappropriation/hacking case in which the opposing party has filed for leave to file a motion for Summ D. I have been putting it off bc I have enough on my plate already, and the motion hasn't been heard. At the very least, I have 21 days after the motion, since it is a motion for leave to file the motion :D

[keska]

I passed the CA bar!! Woo hoo! I'm officially joining this thread.

I'm working in DC right now at an organization that does most policy work for immigrant victims of domestic violence. We've been working on getting the Violence Against Women Act passed. I'd never worked on writing legislation before, so it's been interesting, but it's only temporary. I'm moving to San Francisco at the beginning of January.

Now, the job hunt begins. I was too afraid to search before because I thought I hadn't passed the exam.

[Esq.]

Congratulations Keska!D

[keska]

Thank you!

[Lauren]

Congrats, keska, and welcome!

How's everyone doing? I'm having a slow week for once, with is great. :) I'm planning to leave after lunch today just because I really don't have that much going on.

After much thought, I've conculded that it's probably best for my career to stay put for at least another year, so that's what I'm going to try to do. I've been contacted by recruiters both here and in Texas (where I'm from), though, so it's good to know I have options. :) I know I can't do the big firm thing forever, but I can stick it out for a bit longer, and I think it will be better in the long run.

[AttyGrl74]

We're just dying here at the Clerk's Office. Apparently all the attorneys have been trying to get their stuff filed before going on vacation - which means a TON of work for me!

Congrats Keska!

[DansGirl]

Joining the thread! I just passed the IA bar this summer & practice with a small firm. Sure feels great to feel that all those years of school (and money) was worth it, b/c I actually love what I do. Although, I am looking forward to that day where I actually feel like I know what's going on. :o

[Daisy]

Hey Girls,

I have really good news that I want to share! I know I'm not really active with this thread, but what better time to subscribe than now? :D I've been practicing for 1 1/2 years and I landed what is pretty much my dream job yesterday! I'm so excited, it really doesn't seem real yet. It is for a smaller firm that only does M&A, corporate finance, licensing, securities, etc. This is totally what I want to do! I applied two weeks ago and, to be honest, I didn't think I would get an interview, much less an "I'm sorry we can't interview you..." letter. Well, they called for an interview the same day I emailed in my application materials (good sign #1!). My interview was yesterday and I was sooo nervous. I totally prepared all this Q & A and everything (needless to say, I didn't need it - of course, isn't that how it always works?). Anyway, the interview went really well and now I've been offered the job! :D Obviously, I'm taking it, but they said to get back to them tomorrow (which I will). So I'm not telling anyone until I formally accept.

I just can't believe this! The salary is good (a little higher than what I was going to ask for), bonuses are good, billables are fine, but there is no 401K (which I think is odd) and I completely forgot to ask about vacation and sick - I'll do that tomorrow. I think I'm going to treat myself to a new suit and shoes! :D

DansGirl - Congrats to you!

[Esq.]

Okay, has anyone else had the pleasure of being the catch all of the firm? By this I mean, if someone else can't do it, then it falls to you? EVERYONE ELSES' stuff falls to you? Seriously, I am sick of being asked at least once a week to cover something for someone else when I have so much to do myself. And it has been made clear that I can't say no. I tried to today. I was gently told to do it anyway. Is this normal?

Oh, boss had another screaming fit at me yesterday...just when I thought that I was in the clear and that he had learned his lesson. Guess not. I will be looking for somewhere else to be at the end of my year here. April could not come quick enough.

[DansGirl]

I think I'm going to treat myself to a new suit and shoes!

That's exactly what I would do too!

thanks for the Congrats - right back atcha!

[Esq.]

Opps, cross posted with Daisy. Conrgratulations Daisy! That is awesome!

[lawyergirl25]

Congratulations Daisy! And welcome, DansGirl!

[marypoppins2020]

Hey...new to the thread. I'm in my third year at Yale...graduating in May. I've recently decided to go into business for myself (in a TOTALLY non-law related field) rather than a firm like so many of my classmates. Any advice?

[Lauren]

Ugh, Kyrsten, that really sucks. if that's how they treat their young associates, I guess they can get used to a high turnover rate... If you do decide to make a move next year, do you think you'll go to another firm, or what?

Congrats Daisy!

Welcome marypoppins2020! What kind of business are you planning to start? I envy you -- there are definitely days I wish I hadn't gone to a big firm! ;)

[rosa727]

I'm subscribing. I just accepted an offer at a mid-size firm. I'll be doing corporate defense litigation. I didn't even take trial advocacy or do moot court in law school, so I am a bit freaked out. I passed the VA Bar in fall '03 but this is my first traditional legal job. WooHoo!! :)

[marypoppins2020]

Lauren: the business is a photography business called imagine imaging (www.imagine-imaging.com that's just our temporary site until we launch the new one at the end of this month). My boyfriend is the photographer and I'll be handling the business end. :) After we get that set up, I plan on spinning off an event planning business. It's really scary though because I've spent all this money and time getting a law degree and now it seems like I'm walking away from it. I have two offers, one in London and one in New York, but I just don't think a big firm is for me. What has your experience been like?

[keska]

marypoppins

I think it's great that you're following your heart. I got a JD/MA precisely because I wasn't sure I wanted to practice law when I got out. I think your legal education will give you some valuable knowledge in running a business.

Congrats rosa and Daisy!

[Daisy]

Thanks ladies!!!

I am so super excited for this job. It will give me such great experience (so I can hopefully land a nice in-house job someday ;) ). I formally accepted this morning and I start on December 16th and am having lunch with them on the 13th and picking my office. :D Whoo-hoo!!! It seems weird that I have to tell my friends now - they have no idea that I was even looking!

rosa727 - Congrats to you! You'll do great!

marypoppins2020 - Sounds exciting, best of luck!!

[rosa727]

Daisy: Congrats to you too!!!

[Lauren]

marypoppins - How exciting! My uncle has a successful photography business -- I'll ask him if he has any tips for someone just starting out. :)

Working for a big firm has its good days and its bad days, like anything, but if I could go back and do it again, I think I might make a different decision. It does have its plusses (great money, good experience, name recognition, in house opportunities, etc.), but the minuses can be pretty significant. When I'm working on a huge deal, I feel like I have no life outside of work (which I pretty much don't), and that sucks. Part of it is my problem, because try as I may, I just can't seem to get excited about most of the deals I work on. My pro bono projects, OTOH, are very interesting. :)

I think if you're excited about starting this business, do it! You can always come back to practicing law later, if you want to, and law school will help you in just about anything you decide to do (including business, of course!).

[Amuse Bouche]

Mary Poppin -- OTOH, getting a job at a big firm is going to be absolutely the easiest while you're still in law school. And if you want to leave after a year to work on your business, it will be easier to reenter as a lateral later if you want to than it would be to start from scratch. I interviewed a girl today for a lateral position who had been at a big firm for a year, then left and founded her own business, and is transitioning the business to her sister and interviewing laterally.

[mrsfromage]

MaryPoppins, as someone who also went to all the best schools and tried the big firm thing and didn't particularly love it, I'd follow your heart if there's something you'd rather do. In my opinion, you won't have deep regrets if the big firm door isn't open to you later...especially after you hear all of your friends' stories. And it very well may remain open to you later on if the photography business doesn't work out or you'll find a different kind of legal job.

Anyone seen this blog? Funny yet bitter.
http://opinionistas.blogspot.com

[mrsfromage]

Oh and congrats daisy and hang in there kyrsten! Just think of it all as fodder for your novel ;).

[lawyergirl25]

Congratulations rosa727. And marypoppins, I don't have any advice, but I wanted to wish you luck on your new venture!

Kyrsten, I'm sorry, I missed your post the first time around. I'm so sorry that your boss is still being such a jerk. I can't remember if you've already talked about this, but is he being a jerk because you're young and female, or because he's just a jackass that hasn't learned how to constructively criticize a subordinate's work? Either way, I couldn't handle working for someone who screamed at me all the time. I understand why you're getting the hell out of there in April. In the meantime, is there any way to take more work from other partners so you don't have to deal with this yahoo so much?

[marypoppins2020]

Thank you so much for all of the advice and support! I can't tell you how much kind words mean to me right now. See, I still haven't broken the news to my family, and while I don't think they are going to disown me or anything...I'm afraid I'm going to get some pressure not to *waste* the thousands of dollars spent on law school. Anybody been in that position before?

[keska]

marypoppins

Not quite the same situation but my DH thinks it's a "waste" of law school for me to do public interest law because it pays only what I was making before I went to school. It's a very sore issue since all my work has been in PI and it's what I really want to do.

[lawyergirl25]

I'm still at work. I may be back here in less than 12 hours. :(

I wish I was back in law school!!!

[Sherb]

LawyergirlI'm so sorry. My husband is an attorney too and he's had that kind of week. It sucks. Here's to hoping you don't have to go in all weekend.

[Lauren]

I wish I was back in law school!!!

I hear that! I had that kind of week, too -- all 12+ hour days. :( The deal I was working on got postponed, which kind of sucks, but at least I can enjoy the weekend now!

I hope things get better for you!

[kris97]

No answers, just sympathy. I'm in on a Saturday (again), will be in Sunday (again), after a week in which I left work at 10:30pm or later for four out of five nights. At this point, all I am looking forward to is Christmas.

I don't wish I was in law school, though. I just wish I was at a point in my current job when the hours are more bearable.

[lawyergirl25]

Well, I was in for another 8 hours today, but I got to take the rest of my work home, so that's definitely more bearable. I came into the firm at a time when our office started handling two high-profile white collar criminal cases, so I'm spending A LOT of time doing research for those cases. Most of us are completely unfamiliar with the issues and concepts and so it's taking a lot of work to get up to speed and draft what we need. It will get better soon!

I'm thankful for my job and the experience that I'm getting. I'm just really tired and cranky. :o

[Amuse Bouche]

Eh, working nights and weekends sucks, no way around it. My DH is a 1L in exam period, though, and while much of the time I envy his cushy lifestyle, this month there's no WAY I wish I were back in law school.

Here's a question for you ladies: For those of you who have secretaries or assistants, what do you give them for holiday gifts?

[Esq.]

I have been scouring ebay for brooches that I think each might like, and I am putting them in leather jewelry rolls.

[kris97]

I'm in the govt, so I don't know if the same "standards" apply to private practice, but each attny in my office contributes $40 to a general fund so that each support staff member gets a $25 gift certificate to Century 21 (the dept store near where we work). In addition, the 4-5 attorneys who share a legal assistant will chip in $10-15 to get them another gift - last year we gave our assistant a $50 gift certificate to J&R Music World and some flowers, I think. This year will be something along those lines as well.
hth!

[Amuse Bouche]

Yeah Kris, I was in private practice in New York, and I think it was pretty standard to give money or gift certificates to your secretary, and I would resent the hell out of it because I had a crappy secretary who did nothing for me and yet I felt obligated to give her money during the holidays. I asked around a few people in my department here and nobody suggested money, so I think I'm going to get her a spa gift basket from winecountrygiftbaskets.com

[Peppy]

I haven't been in this thread before (I'm mostly a lurker), but I found the question of secretarial gifts interesting. I got mine a spa gift certificate this year. The thing is--how much do those of you in private practice usually spend? I spent $100, which seems like it should be enough, but... I just never know. I would be interested to see what the rest of you think.

[Esq.]

I have four to buy for, so I try to be as frugal as I can. I spent about $40 each.

[lawyergirl25]

I'm probably just getting my assistant a Barnes & Noble gift card and Bath & Body Works lotion. I'll spend $60-75 total.

[Peppy]

Thanks! This definitely helps. I can't imagine having four secretaries! I don't have enough work to give my one!

[lawyergirl25]

This is really hard. I'm incredibly displeased with some of the staff here and I've never had to be in the "big bad boss" position before. I'm worried that no matter what I say or how I say it, I'm going to come off looking like a major bitch.

How do you guys deal with "laying down the law" with the administrative staff when there's been a series of screw-ups or you're really unhappy with their work? I was a legal secretary for 3 years, but that's not really helping here. It's just highlighting the problems I see, since I know (approximately) how long it should take to get something done, and what's feasible and what's not.

[lawyerlee]

This is really hard. I'm incredibly displeased with some of the staff here and I've never had to be in the "big bad boss" position before. I'm worried that no matter what I say or how I say it, I'm going to come off looking like a major bitch.

How do you guys deal with "laying down the law" with the administrative staff when there's been a series of screw-ups or you're really unhappy with their work? I was a legal secretary for 3 years, but that's not really helping here. It's just highlighting the problems I see, since I know (approximately) how long it should take to get something done, and what's feasible and what's not.
Do they have a supervisor other than you? The few times I have had that problem, I have gone to the head legal secretary and explained my dissatisfaction. Luckily, I now have an awesome relationship with my secretary, and we click great with our work. I wish everyone had that luck.

[Amuse Bouche]

lawyergirl -- do any of the same support staff members work with partners? Would it be useful to go to one of the partners and address issues you've been having and see if they have the same issues, and then find out what to do from someone more senior?

[lawyergirl25]

I don't think it's something I have to go higher up with yet. I had a conversation with my assistant that left me feeling a little better, if not altogether satisfied. My main thing is communication. I don't want to bust my butt and come in early to finish drafting a memo, only to have it sit on someone's desk all morning long and have to wonder what's going on with it. If the project gets bumped (happens all the time, as my secretary also works for a partner) or if there's a major screw-up (like this morning), I'd like to know about it. If we have to have a floater work on it, or if I can handle the small changes myself, I'd like to have that option.

And when I say that I want a memo out the door by 12, that doesn't mean that you have until 11:55 to give me a draft. I'm not cool with not knowing when I'm going to receive a time-sensitive project, and having it sit on someone's desk for 3-1/2 hours. I take responsibility for not being more clear with the directions (i.e. "I want a new draft by 11"), but there has to be some common sense.

Now, there are some other problems that are being addressed by partners. For instance, the partner I was working for last week was none too thrilled that I had to spend 4 hours looking through binders for a document because someone else's secretary didn't feel like doing it and the paralegal was dragging her feet. I couldn't bill for those hours, the project took twice as long as it should have, and the partner and I were frustrated at the attitudes we confronted. There are other similar issues that are being addressed by partners, so I don't want to bother them with my petty complaints about my assistant unless it's absolutely necessary.

[Esq.]

ACK! why does opp counsel keep writing "have not proved"? Is this a legal thing (like the spelling of judgment) or is he just dumb?

It should be "have not proven", right?

[lawyergirl25]

Kyrsten, it is proven. That would annoy me too.

Okay, I have to vent AGAIN. I'm sorry in advance. :(

I got back from my parents on Tuesday and had to come straight in to work from the airport to attend a meeting that afternoon. I got an assignment to help some of the others with their research for a response due next week. It involves a big nationwide search to prove a negative proposition - basically, that there are no cases where X doctrine was applied to Y claims. Due Friday.

I have two other projects due Friday, one of which was given to me the day before the holiday weekend with such vague instructions and deadlines that I've had to hound the assignment attorney multiple times to nail down what's going on. Despite the lack of a definite deadline, I got an email yesterday when I was home sick asking, "are you close on an answer?" Well, not exactly, considering I was just asking you for clarification on the assignment this morning and the research is pretty extensive.

Then I got pulled into two emergency projects today - they will probably keep me here all weekend. Okay, I'll rearrange my plans, I just had a nice break, no big deal.

I'm super stressed this afternoon, don't even know where to start. I just got a call from one of my co-workers: "Hey, we're all at the bar - A, B, C, and D are all here! If you get a chance, come on up!" I just about burst into tears because these "emergency projects" that are keeping me here all weekend, and the extensive research that I can't get adequate direction on? They're projects for A, B, C, and D - each of them gave me one! I'm the only junior associate here this week, so they're giving me all of the crap work while they go to the freakin' bar.

I'm so steamed right now.

[Aimee]

Oh, no, lawyergirl - that's terrible that your co-workers are passing off their assignments onto you! Is there anyway you can give the assignments back to to them? If not, they should definitely take some heat off of you on upcoming assignments.

Wish me luck y'all - I've finally got an interview lined up. It's not a permanent job (contract for 3 to 6 months) and it's not my dream job by any means (document review) but at least someone read my resume. If I'd be fortunate enough to land this job, I wonder how it would look on my resume for the long term - has anyone done anything like this? I'm betting it's a few months worth of file digging, which makes me wonder why they specifically requested attorneys for the job. I guess I'll have to go to the interview and see...