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	<title>Comments on: Pregnancy and Matters of Choice</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.constantchatter.com/2007/07/18/pregnancy-and-matters-of-choice/289/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.constantchatter.com/2007/07/18/pregnancy-and-matters-of-choice/289</link>
	<description>It's All About the Chatter</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 16:00:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Jessie</title>
		<link>http://www.constantchatter.com/2007/07/18/pregnancy-and-matters-of-choice/289#comment-11092</link>
		<dc:creator>Jessie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 10:05:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.constantchatter.com/2007/07/18/pregnancy-and-matters-of-choice/289#comment-11092</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Jessie...&lt;/strong&gt;

There is little evidence for the currency of this....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Jessie&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>There is little evidence for the currency of this&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Niobe</title>
		<link>http://www.constantchatter.com/2007/07/18/pregnancy-and-matters-of-choice/289#comment-10205</link>
		<dc:creator>Niobe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 20:13:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.constantchatter.com/2007/07/18/pregnancy-and-matters-of-choice/289#comment-10205</guid>
		<description>Honestly, I'm happy to see people who are strong enough in their pro-life stance to make the fairly inflammatory statement that all abortion is wrong, whether the woman was raped or not.  Regardless of my opinion on the subject, I have a lot of respect for people who can take such a hard position on something and really stand by it.

However, I still don't think you can, by definition, punish a fetus, as punishment indicates the commission of an offense.  A fetus is incapable of committing an offense and to use the term is purposefully inflammatory and inaccurate.  While the abortion of the pregnancy is certainly detrimental to the fetus, it is not a punishment, as there is just no offense to punish.  I really dislike the idea that women who abort a pregnancy are doing so with the mindset of "well this fetus has committed the offense of existing, so I'm going to punish it by aborting the pregnancy" as that is such a distortion of reality.

And if the only consideration is the life of the fetus, or if the continuation of the fetus is more important than the rights of the woman carrying the fetus, how far should that extend?  Should pregnant women be legally prevented from participating in activities that may carry a risk of miscarriage - like horseback riding and taking hot baths.  Should pregnant women be forbidden to leave the house (god forbid she was in a car wreck and lost the pregnancy) and be confined for the duration of the pregnancy for the protection of the fetus?  Where is the line drawn?

And before anyone says I'm taking this too far, it was very common to confine high-born European women during the 15th and 16th century for the last trimester of pregnancy to "protect" the fetus.  There is a precedence for such a concept.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Honestly, I&#8217;m happy to see people who are strong enough in their pro-life stance to make the fairly inflammatory statement that all abortion is wrong, whether the woman was raped or not.  Regardless of my opinion on the subject, I have a lot of respect for people who can take such a hard position on something and really stand by it.</p>
<p>However, I still don&#8217;t think you can, by definition, punish a fetus, as punishment indicates the commission of an offense.  A fetus is incapable of committing an offense and to use the term is purposefully inflammatory and inaccurate.  While the abortion of the pregnancy is certainly detrimental to the fetus, it is not a punishment, as there is just no offense to punish.  I really dislike the idea that women who abort a pregnancy are doing so with the mindset of &#8220;well this fetus has committed the offense of existing, so I&#8217;m going to punish it by aborting the pregnancy&#8221; as that is such a distortion of reality.</p>
<p>And if the only consideration is the life of the fetus, or if the continuation of the fetus is more important than the rights of the woman carrying the fetus, how far should that extend?  Should pregnant women be legally prevented from participating in activities that may carry a risk of miscarriage - like horseback riding and taking hot baths.  Should pregnant women be forbidden to leave the house (god forbid she was in a car wreck and lost the pregnancy) and be confined for the duration of the pregnancy for the protection of the fetus?  Where is the line drawn?</p>
<p>And before anyone says I&#8217;m taking this too far, it was very common to confine high-born European women during the 15th and 16th century for the last trimester of pregnancy to &#8220;protect&#8221; the fetus.  There is a precedence for such a concept.</p>
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		<title>By: BNZ</title>
		<link>http://www.constantchatter.com/2007/07/18/pregnancy-and-matters-of-choice/289#comment-10188</link>
		<dc:creator>BNZ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jul 2007 01:51:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.constantchatter.com/2007/07/18/pregnancy-and-matters-of-choice/289#comment-10188</guid>
		<description>It really upsets me to hear women being judged as selfish for choosing abortion. It's about having the choice to become a parent. If you don't want to become a parent (whether it be at the time of your pregnancy, or [i]ever[/i]) you have two choices; abortion or adoption. It's all very well to say that adoption should be the compulsory option, but that is simply not viable when pregnancy care is such a huge cost to women, and when women who give their children up for adoption are judged as selfish too, or 'not maternal enough'. 

What you're essentially saying is that women don't have the right to have sex unless they have money. If that seems like a far stretch, think of this not-so-uncommon scenario; poor (as in, not enough money) woman can't afford to have children, and doesn't want them anyway. However, she uses birth control responsibly when making love to her husband, and they've never had a 'mistake'. One day she discovers that despite the BC, she's pregnant. They can't afford to keep the child, and they don't want to be parents. The can't afford the cost of pregnancy care, because they don't have health insurance, and they can't afford for her to take leave from work to recover from the birth and attend pregnancy appointments, since sick leave and maternity leave aren't compulsory and aren't provided. 

See what I'm getting at? Or maybe you don't. The point is, it's cruel to blame women for their irresponsibility, when many are basically forced by a completely unsympathetic system into abortion. Lack of affordable health care, inability to get hold of adequate contraception and morning after pills (a big problem in some less populated areas if you only have a local 'christian' hospital who won't prescribe these things) - these are all major problems that stop women going through pregnancy and adopting out, apart from all the other practical concerns. It's not a matter of selfishness for many - most - women. It's a matter of dealing with circumstances in the only responsible way possible. And you want to take that away from them? What you're saying is that women don't have the right to have sex unless they're prepared to be a mother. That's entirely ideological, and completely unreasonable for all the many MANY women and couples who have made very good, very responsible, very carefully thought-out decisions that they do not want to be parents, whether now or in the future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It really upsets me to hear women being judged as selfish for choosing abortion. It&#8217;s about having the choice to become a parent. If you don&#8217;t want to become a parent (whether it be at the time of your pregnancy, or [i]ever[/i]) you have two choices; abortion or adoption. It&#8217;s all very well to say that adoption should be the compulsory option, but that is simply not viable when pregnancy care is such a huge cost to women, and when women who give their children up for adoption are judged as selfish too, or &#8216;not maternal enough&#8217;. </p>
<p>What you&#8217;re essentially saying is that women don&#8217;t have the right to have sex unless they have money. If that seems like a far stretch, think of this not-so-uncommon scenario; poor (as in, not enough money) woman can&#8217;t afford to have children, and doesn&#8217;t want them anyway. However, she uses birth control responsibly when making love to her husband, and they&#8217;ve never had a &#8216;mistake&#8217;. One day she discovers that despite the BC, she&#8217;s pregnant. They can&#8217;t afford to keep the child, and they don&#8217;t want to be parents. The can&#8217;t afford the cost of pregnancy care, because they don&#8217;t have health insurance, and they can&#8217;t afford for her to take leave from work to recover from the birth and attend pregnancy appointments, since sick leave and maternity leave aren&#8217;t compulsory and aren&#8217;t provided. </p>
<p>See what I&#8217;m getting at? Or maybe you don&#8217;t. The point is, it&#8217;s cruel to blame women for their irresponsibility, when many are basically forced by a completely unsympathetic system into abortion. Lack of affordable health care, inability to get hold of adequate contraception and morning after pills (a big problem in some less populated areas if you only have a local &#8216;christian&#8217; hospital who won&#8217;t prescribe these things) - these are all major problems that stop women going through pregnancy and adopting out, apart from all the other practical concerns. It&#8217;s not a matter of selfishness for many - most - women. It&#8217;s a matter of dealing with circumstances in the only responsible way possible. And you want to take that away from them? What you&#8217;re saying is that women don&#8217;t have the right to have sex unless they&#8217;re prepared to be a mother. That&#8217;s entirely ideological, and completely unreasonable for all the many MANY women and couples who have made very good, very responsible, very carefully thought-out decisions that they do not want to be parents, whether now or in the future.</p>
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		<title>By: jesspill</title>
		<link>http://www.constantchatter.com/2007/07/18/pregnancy-and-matters-of-choice/289#comment-10174</link>
		<dc:creator>jesspill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jul 2007 18:08:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.constantchatter.com/2007/07/18/pregnancy-and-matters-of-choice/289#comment-10174</guid>
		<description>I too am pro-life with no exceptions.  My comment about excluding rape was only to point out a time when sex was not done with consent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I too am pro-life with no exceptions.  My comment about excluding rape was only to point out a time when sex was not done with consent.</p>
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		<title>By: DansGirl</title>
		<link>http://www.constantchatter.com/2007/07/18/pregnancy-and-matters-of-choice/289#comment-10169</link>
		<dc:creator>DansGirl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jul 2007 16:06:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.constantchatter.com/2007/07/18/pregnancy-and-matters-of-choice/289#comment-10169</guid>
		<description>Yes, Niobe, you can punish a fetus - by having an abortion.  And, I'll FTR, I'm another pro-lifer who doesn't believe in the exception for rape (my earlier post may have mislead you, I was just speaking of those exceptions where you a woman doesn't control getting pregnant, but I did not mean those should be exceptions to abortion, I'm sorry for the confusion).  FWIW, I believe the only times abortion should be available are for the health of the mother/child.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Niobe, you can punish a fetus - by having an abortion.  And, I&#8217;ll FTR, I&#8217;m another pro-lifer who doesn&#8217;t believe in the exception for rape (my earlier post may have mislead you, I was just speaking of those exceptions where you a woman doesn&#8217;t control getting pregnant, but I did not mean those should be exceptions to abortion, I&#8217;m sorry for the confusion).  FWIW, I believe the only times abortion should be available are for the health of the mother/child.</p>
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		<title>By: mmeblue</title>
		<link>http://www.constantchatter.com/2007/07/18/pregnancy-and-matters-of-choice/289#comment-10115</link>
		<dc:creator>mmeblue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jul 2007 13:37:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.constantchatter.com/2007/07/18/pregnancy-and-matters-of-choice/289#comment-10115</guid>
		<description>Niobe - as someone who is pro-life, I agree with you that it's inconsistent to make an exception for cases of rape.  That's a position I used to hold, but when I examined my views more carefully, I realized that it just doesn't work.  If (as I believe) abortion is the wrongful taking of a life, then it is the wrongful taking of a life whether that life was conceived through consensual sex or not.  I know that many pro-lifers do make the rape exception, but I just can't reconcile it with my beliefs on life.  The child is not responsible for the circumstances in which he was conceived, so I can't view those circumstances as an acceptable reason for ending his life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Niobe - as someone who is pro-life, I agree with you that it&#8217;s inconsistent to make an exception for cases of rape.  That&#8217;s a position I used to hold, but when I examined my views more carefully, I realized that it just doesn&#8217;t work.  If (as I believe) abortion is the wrongful taking of a life, then it is the wrongful taking of a life whether that life was conceived through consensual sex or not.  I know that many pro-lifers do make the rape exception, but I just can&#8217;t reconcile it with my beliefs on life.  The child is not responsible for the circumstances in which he was conceived, so I can&#8217;t view those circumstances as an acceptable reason for ending his life.</p>
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		<title>By: heather1029</title>
		<link>http://www.constantchatter.com/2007/07/18/pregnancy-and-matters-of-choice/289#comment-10111</link>
		<dc:creator>heather1029</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jul 2007 11:39:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.constantchatter.com/2007/07/18/pregnancy-and-matters-of-choice/289#comment-10111</guid>
		<description>FWIW, Niobe, I am anti-abortion and I do NOT support making exceptions for cases of rape (or incest). Killing a child is killing a child, no matter how or by whom the child was conceived.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FWIW, Niobe, I am anti-abortion and I do NOT support making exceptions for cases of rape (or incest). Killing a child is killing a child, no matter how or by whom the child was conceived.</p>
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		<title>By: Niobe</title>
		<link>http://www.constantchatter.com/2007/07/18/pregnancy-and-matters-of-choice/289#comment-10096</link>
		<dc:creator>Niobe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jul 2007 01:13:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.constantchatter.com/2007/07/18/pregnancy-and-matters-of-choice/289#comment-10096</guid>
		<description>Why does it always seem that for pro-lifers, birth control has a 100% success rate?  That can be one reason a woman doesn't "just take a morning-after pill".

And can you really "punish" a fetus? 

I don't see how a person can be pro-life and really believe that aborting a pregnancy is the equivalent of murder, but be able to make an exception for rape.  Does knowing the reason why a woman is making that choice really make it less of a murder in your eyes?

I'm (obviously) pro-choice, and to me this means being pro-choice, PERIOD, regardless of why the woman is choosing to abort.  I can understand the "don't like it but think it should remain legal" stance, but I just don't get the "think it's murder and should be treated like murder, unless the woman was raped."

I'm pro-choice because I believe that it's a medical procedure and that lawmakers should not have the right to legislate medical care.  The performance of the procedure, or the prescription of the medication, should be a decision made by the patient and her doctor, no one else.  I couldn't care less about the possibly morality of the procedure.  I don't think lawmakers should govern morality, nor that any person has the right to force their moral beliefs on another person.  If you feel it's an immoral procedure, then don't have one.  That's your right to choose.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why does it always seem that for pro-lifers, birth control has a 100% success rate?  That can be one reason a woman doesn&#8217;t &#8220;just take a morning-after pill&#8221;.</p>
<p>And can you really &#8220;punish&#8221; a fetus? </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see how a person can be pro-life and really believe that aborting a pregnancy is the equivalent of murder, but be able to make an exception for rape.  Does knowing the reason why a woman is making that choice really make it less of a murder in your eyes?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m (obviously) pro-choice, and to me this means being pro-choice, PERIOD, regardless of why the woman is choosing to abort.  I can understand the &#8220;don&#8217;t like it but think it should remain legal&#8221; stance, but I just don&#8217;t get the &#8220;think it&#8217;s murder and should be treated like murder, unless the woman was raped.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m pro-choice because I believe that it&#8217;s a medical procedure and that lawmakers should not have the right to legislate medical care.  The performance of the procedure, or the prescription of the medication, should be a decision made by the patient and her doctor, no one else.  I couldn&#8217;t care less about the possibly morality of the procedure.  I don&#8217;t think lawmakers should govern morality, nor that any person has the right to force their moral beliefs on another person.  If you feel it&#8217;s an immoral procedure, then don&#8217;t have one.  That&#8217;s your right to choose.</p>
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		<title>By: jesspill</title>
		<link>http://www.constantchatter.com/2007/07/18/pregnancy-and-matters-of-choice/289#comment-10084</link>
		<dc:creator>jesspill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2007 15:46:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.constantchatter.com/2007/07/18/pregnancy-and-matters-of-choice/289#comment-10084</guid>
		<description>I typically stay away from these discussions, but I have to point out that most of the arguments for pro-choice (minus those claiming they are trying to save the child from an awful life) are for the mother's selfish reasons.  She doesn't want to go through pregnancy and labor because they are so difficult and since she didn't want the pregnancy in the first place she shouldn't have to go through with it.  To me this is very sad.  She made the adult decision to have sex, protected or not, and that means she knew that pregnancy could be a result.  That baby forming did not force her to have sex and did not asked to be conceived.  And yet, somehow, the baby is being punished for being created.  Yes, pregnancy is difficult and labor is no picnic, but we are adults (and teens know the consequences also since we now teach all this in elementary school!) and we know what the outcome could possibly be when deciding to have sex.  We teach our children that they must live with the consquences of their actions, and yet turn around and take such a drastic measure to try and erase a mistake made.  Our society has made it so easy for us to cop out of things and it's very sad.  Why is it that we cannot decide our neighbor is an inconveniece to our lives and shoot him, yet a baby that was created during an act that was done with consent (excluding rape) is disposable?  I know that it then comes down to arguments about when life actually begins, etc., but it's just seems like a double standard to me.  It's sad that they are so many women who would give their right arm to bear a child, yet so many women are given that gift and just throw it away.  There may be a lot of awful things in this world that cause children to suffer...but there is a lot of good.  We have no way of knowing what that child's life would be like and assuming it would be bad just because the mother didn't want him/her is awful.  I know quite a few people who were given up for adoption and have led very wonderful happy lives.  I also know people who have had unwanted pregnanies, yet kept the child and loved them more than anything.  And yet there are women who do want pregnancies and abuse the child born.  So there is just no way to know and I feel that is just a sad sad arguement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I typically stay away from these discussions, but I have to point out that most of the arguments for pro-choice (minus those claiming they are trying to save the child from an awful life) are for the mother&#8217;s selfish reasons.  She doesn&#8217;t want to go through pregnancy and labor because they are so difficult and since she didn&#8217;t want the pregnancy in the first place she shouldn&#8217;t have to go through with it.  To me this is very sad.  She made the adult decision to have sex, protected or not, and that means she knew that pregnancy could be a result.  That baby forming did not force her to have sex and did not asked to be conceived.  And yet, somehow, the baby is being punished for being created.  Yes, pregnancy is difficult and labor is no picnic, but we are adults (and teens know the consequences also since we now teach all this in elementary school!) and we know what the outcome could possibly be when deciding to have sex.  We teach our children that they must live with the consquences of their actions, and yet turn around and take such a drastic measure to try and erase a mistake made.  Our society has made it so easy for us to cop out of things and it&#8217;s very sad.  Why is it that we cannot decide our neighbor is an inconveniece to our lives and shoot him, yet a baby that was created during an act that was done with consent (excluding rape) is disposable?  I know that it then comes down to arguments about when life actually begins, etc., but it&#8217;s just seems like a double standard to me.  It&#8217;s sad that they are so many women who would give their right arm to bear a child, yet so many women are given that gift and just throw it away.  There may be a lot of awful things in this world that cause children to suffer&#8230;but there is a lot of good.  We have no way of knowing what that child&#8217;s life would be like and assuming it would be bad just because the mother didn&#8217;t want him/her is awful.  I know quite a few people who were given up for adoption and have led very wonderful happy lives.  I also know people who have had unwanted pregnanies, yet kept the child and loved them more than anything.  And yet there are women who do want pregnancies and abuse the child born.  So there is just no way to know and I feel that is just a sad sad arguement.</p>
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		<title>By: jnettie</title>
		<link>http://www.constantchatter.com/2007/07/18/pregnancy-and-matters-of-choice/289#comment-10063</link>
		<dc:creator>jnettie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jul 2007 00:05:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.constantchatter.com/2007/07/18/pregnancy-and-matters-of-choice/289#comment-10063</guid>
		<description>There are as many reasons to have or not have an abortion as there are women in the world.
Not every woman has been educated about birth control.
Not every woman has the strength to tell her boyfriend no to sex.
Not every married couple can afford another mouth to feed or the medical bills with the pregnancy.
DH's grandmother had an abortion in the 70s.  GM and GP already had 7 kids, and one more was just too many for them. 
Not every woman who needs an abortion is a careless teen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are as many reasons to have or not have an abortion as there are women in the world.<br />
Not every woman has been educated about birth control.<br />
Not every woman has the strength to tell her boyfriend no to sex.<br />
Not every married couple can afford another mouth to feed or the medical bills with the pregnancy.<br />
DH&#8217;s grandmother had an abortion in the 70s.  GM and GP already had 7 kids, and one more was just too many for them.<br />
Not every woman who needs an abortion is a careless teen.</p>
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